/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 20 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:16] <Philip`> Hixie: I've updated the spec splitter (just removed one id) to work better with the current reorganisation; let me know if I missed any pages and they look stupidly short/long
  7. # [00:16] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  8. # [00:16] <Hixie> does the new organisation make more sense, do you think?
  9. # [00:16] <Hixie> (did you see any obvious mistakes?)
  10. # [00:17] <mcarter> Hixie, how would you describe your relationship to HTML5 besides "The editor of the HTML5 specification" ?
  11. # [00:17] <Hixie> that's how i would describe my relationship to html5
  12. # [00:17] <mcarter> ok, thanks
  13. # [00:18] <Philip`> Hixie: No idea - I just looked at the scrollbars, I didn't read the text at all :-)
  14. # [00:18] <Hixie> hah
  15. # [00:18] <Hixie> fat lot of use you are :-P
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  17. # [00:20] <Philip`> I could read through the whole spec looking for any parts that lack sense or contain mistakes, and I'll send my feedback some time during 2010
  18. # [00:22] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-70-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  19. # [00:22] <Hixie> that would be awesome
  20. # [00:23] <Hixie> though i recommend sending the feedback as you go
  21. # [00:23] <Hixie> so that my mail client doesn't crash when you send your 500MB e-mail
  22. # [00:23] <Philip`> But then you'll keep changing the spec as I'm reading, and it will take an infinite time before it's stable
  23. # [00:24] <Hixie> (2010 is half-way through our last call period)
  24. # [00:24] <Hixie> it won't take an infinite time
  25. # [00:24] <Hixie> it'll converge on stability
  26. # [00:25] <Philip`> 1/x converges on zero but takes an infinite amount of time to get there
  27. # [00:25] <Hixie> yeah but it doesn't take an infinite amount of time to get to zero plus or minus epsilon
  28. # [00:25] <Hixie> and that's my actual target, not zero
  29. # [00:26] <Hixie> when the feedback consists only of people suggesting changes to examples, spelling, grammar, etc, we're basically done
  30. # [00:27] <Hixie> ok wtf is a URL.
  31. # [00:27] <Hixie> it's not a URI, since URIs don't allow non-escaped non-ASCII characters.
  32. # [00:27] <Philip`> I suppose epsilon will increase over time, as you get more and more fed up of working on HTML5 and want to just mark it as 'finished' and move onto something else
  33. # [00:28] <Hixie> it's definitely not an IRI, since IRIs appear to be UTF-8 only
  34. # [00:28] <Hixie> Philip`: probably not, actually.
  35. # [00:29] <Hixie> Philip`: but we'll see
  36. # [00:29] <jcranmer> Philip`: you can get remarkably resilient
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  39. # [00:35] <Hixie> you know the web platform has a problem when you can't complete the sentence "The term URL in this specification is used to mean..."
  40. # [00:35] <jcranmer> shouldn't it be URI?
  41. # [00:35] <hober> heh
  42. # [00:35] <jcranmer> I thought URL was deprecated
  43. # [00:35] <jcranmer> Hixie: it also means that you have become a language lawyer
  44. # [00:36] <hober> "have become"? :)
  45. # [00:38] <Philip`> jcranmer: People have thought HTML was deprecated :-)
  46. # [00:38] <jcranmer> I meant the term
  47. # [00:39] <Philip`> That means fewer people will object if the term gets redefined into meaning something ugly and web-compatible
  48. # [00:40] <Philip`> If I'm not wrong, "URI" already has a specific meaning, so it'd be wrong to use that term to refer to something that's not quite the same
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  50. # [00:42] <Lachy> Philip`, URL already has a specific meaning too. But if I understand correctly, then we're redefining it to be more realistic
  51. # [00:45] <Hixie> URI means what RFC3986 says it means, which isn't what I want URL to mean
  52. # [00:45] <Hixie> e.g. it doesn't allow non-ascii characters
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  54. # [00:46] <jcranmer> isn't that idn is supposed to solve?
  55. # [00:46] <jcranmer> er, punycode or whatever it is?
  56. # [00:48] <Hixie> yes
  57. # [00:48] <Hixie> that's RFC3987
  58. # [00:48] <Hixie> but it assumes UTF-8
  59. # [00:49] <Hixie> which isn't what browsers do either
  60. # [00:49] <Hixie> (they use UTF-8 for the path, and the current encoding for the query component)
  61. # [00:49] <Hixie> so we can't say URL = URI, and we can't say URL = IRI
  62. # [00:49] <jcranmer> isn't this where one should say "screw encodings, everything's UTF8, and if you don't like that, you can have UTF16"
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  66. # [00:55] <Lachy> Hixie, so what you really need to define is how a URL occuring within a given document maps to a properly encoded URI/IRI, which can then be retrieved.
  67. # [00:55] <Hixie> jcranmer: that doesn't really work well with the existing web :-)
  68. # [00:55] <Lachy> am I understanding correctly?
  69. # [00:55] <Hixie> Lachy: i think you're right
  70. # [00:55] <Hixie> i think i need hsivonen
  71. # [00:56] <Hixie> specifically, i want to know if he thinks that non-utf-8 escaped octets in a URI, or non-ascii in a query component in a non-utf-8 document, should be non-conforming
  72. # [00:58] <Lachy> what do you mean by a non-utf-8 escaped octet?
  73. # [01:01] <Hixie> http://example.com/%FF
  74. # [01:01] <Hixie> for example
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  76. # [01:03] <Lachy> re bug 5772, I think rb is trying to make a distinction between the id="" attribute and attributes of type ID. He wants to preserve the meaning of the type ID which requires uniqueness, and redefine id="" so that it isn't of type ID and doesn't require uniqueness
  77. # [01:03] <Hixie> wish he'd say so then :-)
  78. # [01:04] <Lachy> but it's rather confusing, since HTML5 isn't defined in terms of a schema language
  79. # [01:04] <Hixie> aah, you said the word schema! 5 minutes in the corner!
  80. # [01:04] <Hixie> oh crap, so did i.
  81. # [01:04] * Hixie joins Lachy in the corner.
  82. # [01:04] <Lachy> :-D
  83. # [01:07] <Lachy> but what he's asking for is a bad idea since it creates problems for getElementById(), which depends on uniqueness for being totally predictable, as the DOM spec leaves behaviour explicitly undefined in the case of duplicates
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  85. # [01:07] <Lachy> that should, of course, be defined in DOM5 though
  86. # [01:09] <Hixie> "A
  87. # [01:09] <Hixie> er
  88. # [01:09] <Hixie> "A URL is a string."
  89. # [01:09] <Hixie> there.
  90. # [01:10] <jcranmer> "A URL is a non-zero sequence of octets arranged in an unspecified fashion"
  91. # [01:10] <Hixie> no, it could be zero-length
  92. # [01:10] <Hixie> :-)
  93. # [01:10] <Hixie> "" = a URL to the current page
  94. # [01:10] <jcranmer> but it can't be 0
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  96. # [01:11] <jcranmer> I didn't say non-zero length :-)
  97. # [01:11] <Hixie> what's a zero sequence of octets then?
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  99. # [01:11] <jcranmer> uh... a sequence that sums to zero?
  100. # [01:11] * jcranmer frantically looks for someone who knows higher math
  101. # [01:11] <Philip`> A zero-length sequence sums to zero
  102. # [01:12] <jcranmer> well, we all know how many documents are non-conforming these days
  103. # [01:12] <Philip`> assuming you define sums in a sensible way
  104. # [01:15] <Lachy> Hixie, non-utf-8 escaped octets should be conforming. I don't believe there is a requirement that escaped octets in a path must represent UTF-8 bytes, only that non-ASCII characters must be represented by encoded UTF-8 octets.
  105. # [01:16] <Hixie> so a valid URL need not be a valid URI?
  106. # [01:17] <roc> I thought it was standardized that the first element in the document with a given ID is "the" element for that ID
  107. # [01:17] <roc> if not, it should be. The Web seems to depend on it
  108. # [01:17] <Hixie> not officially, but de facto, yeah. things get more exciting when you start changing the DOM though.
  109. # [01:17] <roc> hmm
  110. # [01:17] <Lachy> Hixie, isn't http://example.org/%FF a valid URI? I thought it was.
  111. # [01:18] <Hixie> yes, it is
  112. # [01:18] <Hixie> but should it be a valid URL?
  113. # [01:18] <roc> we always return the first element from getElementById, and if anyone tells us to do otherwise I will sneeze on them
  114. # [01:18] <Lachy> of course. Why shouldn't it be?
  115. # [01:18] <Hixie> what's the path?
  116. # [01:18] <Hixie> roc: even if someone inserts another element with the same ID before it?
  117. # [01:19] <roc> then we return the new element
  118. # [01:19] <roc> I mean "first in document order"
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  120. # [01:20] <Lachy> Hixie, what do you mean? It's %FF (or the octect 0xFF)
  121. # [01:20] <Hixie> roc: i thought there was some issue where the order guarantee wasn't preserved in the face of dynamic changes
  122. # [01:20] <Hixie> Lachy: right, and what unicode character does %FF represent?
  123. # [01:20] <Lachy> why does it need to represent a unicode character?
  124. # [01:21] <jcranmer> because it means unescaping is always safe?
  125. # [01:21] <roc> maybe there is, but I've been hacking in this area recently and I'm pretty sure we preserve the order guarantee in the face of dynamic changes. We're certainly *trying*
  126. # [01:21] <Hixie> roc: ah, cool.
  127. # [01:21] <Hixie> roc: then we should fix the spec, indeed.
  128. # [01:22] <Hixie> Lachy: i guess it doesn't
  129. # [01:22] <roc> it's possible IE stuffs it up of course
  130. # [01:22] <othermaciej> I remember a while back Firefox would break the order guarantee in some cases
  131. # [01:22] <roc> if we do have bugs I'd rather fix them than preserve something insane
  132. # [01:23] <Lachy> I think it used to break it if a new element with a duplicate ID was inserted before an existing one with the same ID, or if one was moved from later in the document to before.
  133. # [01:27] <roc> ah OK, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=403868, fixed in November last year so in Firefox 3.
  134. # [01:27] <roc> Amazon apparently depends on the correct behaviour so it should be safe to write into the spec :-)
  135. # [01:29] <Hixie> we need someone to write Web DOM Core 5
  136. # [01:30] <Hixie> i think zcorpan volunteered once
  137. # [01:30] <Hixie> but i may be wrong :-)
  138. # [01:31] <othermaciej> Gecko has 3 getElementById implementations?
  139. # [01:33] <roc> yeah
  140. # [01:33] <roc> I've actually fixed that in my tree
  141. # [01:33] <roc> blame hyatt, he wrote one of them
  142. # [01:34] <jcranmer> and who wrote the others?
  143. # [01:34] <roc> dunno
  144. # [01:34] <gavin> the other two are html and xhtml
  145. # [01:34] <roc> digging up CVS blame from that long ago is something I only do when I'm in a *really* bad mood
  146. # [01:35] <othermaciej> there's one specific to xhtml, not xml?
  147. # [01:35] <gavin> no, I should have said XML
  148. # [01:35] <roc> actually gavin's not quite wright
  149. # [01:35] <roc> there's one for HTML+XHTML, one for XML, and one for XUL
  150. # [01:35] <othermaciej> I think hyatt's excuse for adding the xul one was that his request for making the general one do lots of caching was denied
  151. # [01:35] <othermaciej> (I vaguely remember him mentioning this once)
  152. # [01:35] <gavin> oh, I didn't know XHTML used the html one
  153. # [01:36] <roc> othermaciej: yeah, well I'm not defending any of the decisions made back then :-)
  154. # [01:37] <roc> but I will grumble that caching or not, nsXULDocument is the ugliest thing I've touched in a while
  155. # [01:38] <othermaciej> I will tell hyatt you send your love ;-)
  156. # [01:39] <jcranmer> I work in mailnews/... ugly is the norm
  157. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: fixed the style xref link issue (apparently bert's script cross-references <em> elements)
  158. # [01:41] <Philip`> Hixie: Thanks
  159. # [01:41] <Hixie> anyone know how UAs determine which encoding to use when escaping URIs in scripts?
  160. # [01:45] <Lachy> I hope it's either UTF-8 or, failing that, the encoding of the script file
  161. # [01:46] <Lachy> but then most scripts don't declare their encodings and, IIRC, it inherits from the document anyway.
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  163. # [02:03] <Hixie> which document?
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  165. # [02:04] <Hixie> e.g. if i have na iframe showing doc1, and i get a reference to a function in that script, then navigate the iframe to doc2, different encoding, then call the function
  166. # [02:04] <Hixie> does it use the parent's encoding, doc1's encoding, or doc2's?
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  168. # [02:05] <Lachy> I don't know, I was just speculating. Need to test it.
  169. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah
  170. # [02:06] <Hixie> i feared that too
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  172. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: back now
  173. # [02:10] <Hixie> i sent mail
  174. # [02:10] <Hixie> (good morning)
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  177. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: g'morning.. reading now
  178. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  181. # [02:58] <Hixie> what's the character that is represented in the most different ways in commonly supported encodings?
  182. # [02:59] <jcranmer> euro sign?
  183. # [03:01] <Hixie> actually that's got surprisingly little variation
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  185. # [03:08] <jcranmer> :-/
  186. # [03:11] <Hixie> this can be reduced to a programming problem
  187. # [03:11] <Hixie> which is much more fun
  188. # [03:11] * Hixie starts coding
  189. # [03:13] <jcranmer> writing documentation can be fun... if you're in the mood :-)
  190. # [03:19] <Hixie> can't do the docs without the tests
  191. # [03:19] <Hixie> and the tests aren't fun :-)
  192. # [03:19] <jcranmer> I do docs first and tests second
  193. # [03:20] <jcranmer> or, more accurately, I wait for somebody to complain about a regression, and then write the test
  194. # [03:21] <Hixie> i need to have the tests in this case to know what to document :-(
  195. # [03:22] <Hixie> so much easier to make stuff up
  196. # [03:27] <Hixie> U+2116 seems to be the winner
  197. # [03:28] <jcranmer> what's that?
  198. # [03:30] <Hixie> +2116, U+2235, U+02C7, U+2019, U+00D7, U+201D, U+00F7, U+00A7 actually
  199. # [03:30] <Hixie> all have 6 different ways of being encoded in the encodings i was looking at
  200. # [03:32] <Hixie> if i only look at single byte encodings, U+0160, U+017E, U+017D, U+0161 win
  201. # [03:32] <Hixie> that's better
  202. # [03:33] <Hixie> all letters with carrons
  203. # [03:33] <Hixie> carons even
  204. # [03:35] <Hixie> Codepoint U+017D has 5 different encodings: 0xDE in encodings: ISO-8859-13, Win-1257 0xAC in encodings: ISO-8859-10 0xAE in encodings: ISO-8859-2, ISO-8859-4 0xB4 in encodings: ISO-8859-15, ISO-8859-16 0x8E in encodings: Win-1250, Win-1252
  205. # [03:35] <jcranmer> Hixie: but isn't the point of a spec to make up some abstract spot to get implementors to chase towards so that by the time they get there, you write a new one, even harder to implement? That's more or less what CSS did...d
  206. # [03:35] <jcranmer> :-)
  207. # [03:36] <Hixie> html5 takes spec writing in new directions
  208. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> html5 takes a lot of things in new directions
  209. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> the Undiscovered Country
  210. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> which phrase, interestingly, despite the use of it in a different way for that Star Trek movie, is talking about death
  211. # [03:41] <Hixie> hey!
  212. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> in Hamlet, where the phrase came from
  213. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: :)
  214. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> sorry, I mean it only in a good way
  215. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> I promise
  216. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> Rage, rage against the dying of the light!
  217. # [03:43] <Hixie> :-)
  218. # [03:44] <jcranmer> Wherefore art thou Romeo?
  219. # [03:44] <jcranmer> that's about the best I can manage...
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  223. # [04:02] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/001.html
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  225. # [04:10] <Hixie> good lord
  226. # [04:10] <Hixie> IE8 actually sends ISO-885-13 over the wire
  227. # [04:13] <othermaciej> what is ISO-885-13?
  228. # [04:13] <jcranmer> 8851, I presume?
  229. # [04:15] <Hixie> 8851, sorry
  230. # [04:15] <Hixie> er, 59
  231. # [04:15] <jcranmer> er, right
  232. # [04:15] <Hixie> but actually if the page is ISO-8859-13, then the path component gets %-encoded as UTF-8 and the query component gets sent as raw Windows-1252
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  235. # [04:26] <Hixie> oh jesus.
  236. # [04:26] <Hixie> so in IE
  237. # [04:26] <Hixie> if you set the .src of an iframe
  238. # [04:26] <Hixie> to a url that contains a unicode character
  239. # [04:26] <Hixie> IE will use the encoding of the document currently loaded in that iframe to encode the chararcter, and then won't escape it
  240. # [04:27] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  241. # [04:27] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/001.html
  242. # [04:27] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/002.html
  243. # [04:32] <othermaciej> that's....
  244. # [04:32] <othermaciej> evil
  245. # [04:32] <othermaciej> I can see why people would like to pretend that when there are non-ASCII characters, it's an IRI
  246. # [04:32] <othermaciej> that would be a lot simpler than reality
  247. # [04:33] * jcranmer wonders if Hixie will give up in several months and just start labelling all edge cases as places where the spec is undefined
  248. # [04:35] <Hixie> i haven't given up yet, and i've been doing this since 2003 :-)
  249. # [04:35] <othermaciej> jcranmer: if he was the type of man to do that, he would have done so long since
  250. # [04:39] <Hixie> bbl food
  251. # [04:39] <jcranmer> when/if it hits, it hits hard
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  254. # [04:50] <othermaciej> I do fear that someday he'll find a browser behavior crazy enough to make him say "ok, fuck this, I quit"
  255. # [04:50] <othermaciej> but that hasn't happened yet
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  261. # [07:25] <Hixie> actually it's self-limiting in a pretty neat way
  262. # [07:25] <Hixie> if the behaviour is too crazy, i just don't spec it
  263. # [07:25] <Hixie> i spec something better instead
  264. # [07:27] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  265. # [08:01] <Hixie> what's with the microsoft people putting their names in square brackets all the time
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  268. # [08:44] <Dashiva> It's hip to be square.
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  270. # [09:23] <annevk> Hixie, if you didn't get that e-mail about access-control then I'm not sure what you meant
  271. # [09:24] <Hixie> what was the link again?
  272. # [09:24] <annevk> Hixie, you wanted personalized widgets on the server right without having to use HTTP headers?
  273. # [09:24] <Hixie> i've sent a lot of mail, i'm not sure of the context here
  274. # [09:24] <annevk> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008AprJun/0255.html
  275. # [09:26] <Hixie> right the idea is that the xbl might be returned differently based on cookies
  276. # [09:26] <Hixie> but sicking's idea would not send cookies without a flag
  277. # [09:26] <Hixie> so i'd have to add a flag to xbl2 for when we want cookies to be sent
  278. # [09:27] <Hixie> personally i'm not sure sicking's idea makes a whole lot of sense, as i later mentioned
  279. # [09:27] <Hixie> but assuming you do adopt it, then those xbl changes will be made later
  280. # [09:28] <annevk> but then on the server side you still need to use HTTP headers
  281. # [09:28] <annevk> because otherwise the flag will be ignored by the user agent
  282. # [09:29] <annevk> I thought that wasn't acceptable
  283. # [09:29] <annevk> if it is, we might as well drop <?access-control?> ...
  284. # [09:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  285. # [09:36] <Hixie> well that's fine
  286. # [09:37] <Hixie> doesn't matter what the server side has to do
  287. # [09:37] <Hixie> i was just talking about <xbl>
  288. # [09:37] <Hixie> er, <?xbl?>
  289. # [09:37] <annevk> oh?
  290. # [09:37] <Hixie> (and you still need <?access-control?> for the more common no-cookie case anyway)
  291. # [09:37] <annevk> I see...
  292. # [09:38] <annevk> In that case I did misunderstood you
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  295. # [09:45] <annevk> wtf
  296. # [09:46] <annevk> I pointed out in an e-mail why WebKit requested not throwing an exception for responseXML and responseText based on site compatibility and IE being inconsistent and they're saying no arguments were made?!
  297. # [09:46] <annevk> hah
  298. # [09:49] <annevk> "Oops. Adding Anne." :/
  299. # [09:49] * annevk is on the list
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  301. # [10:00] <Hixie> annevk: i recommend just repeating yourself
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  303. # [10:02] <annevk> yeah, maybe during the weekend
  304. # [10:02] <annevk> I should really make this presentation I have to give later today
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  310. # [10:42] <Hixie> nggh. http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/003.html
  311. # [10:45] <annevk> "%-escaped ISO-8859-13"
  312. # [10:45] <annevk> for query
  313. # [10:45] <Hixie> you must be using opera or firefox
  314. # [10:46] <annevk> yeah, Opera
  315. # [10:47] <Hixie> IE uses -15 (unless you go back/forward, in which case it starts doing even weirder things)
  316. # [10:47] <Hixie> safari uses -2
  317. # [10:47] <Hixie> iri says to use utf-8
  318. # [10:49] <Hixie> oh except IE uses raw octets and everyone else escapes
  319. # [10:49] <Hixie> everyone ignores the encoding of the script when doing this
  320. # [10:50] <Hixie> that's interesting
  321. # [10:50] <Hixie> of course it means now i have to find a way to associate a Document with every script
  322. # [10:50] <Hixie> that's exciting
  323. # [10:51] <annevk> doesn't the origin of a script arrive at some Document somehow
  324. # [10:52] <Hixie> not always
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  327. # [10:55] <Hixie> bed time
  328. # [10:55] <Hixie> nn
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  363. # [16:06] * Philip` continues to wish he could tell Gmail that anything sent to whatwg@whatwg.org is not to be considered spam
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  365. # [16:10] <Lachy> what is it about whatwg emails that get caught?
  366. # [16:10] <Lachy> does it do the same for public-html? (I would classify a lot more of those as spam than I would whatwg)
  367. # [16:11] <Philip`> Lachy: Don't know what it is, but it caught your latest email
  368. # [16:11] <Lachy> great.
  369. # [16:11] <Philip`> It only seems to be around one every couple of weeks, and I've not noticed any pattern
  370. # [16:12] <Lachy> can you set up a filter or a whitelist or something?
  371. # [16:12] <Philip`> I don't remember public-html emails getting marked as spam, but that's mostly because my memory isn't great
  372. # [16:13] <Philip`> Hmm, now I can't connect to Gmail at all :-/
  373. # [16:16] <Philip`> Ah, back now
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  375. # [16:17] <Philip`> Lachy: I can set a filter to label/archive/etc WHATWG mails, but that just makes the messages in the spam folder have a WHATWG label - I can't see any way for a filter to affect the spam filtering
  376. # [16:28] <annevk> then you search every 30 days for label:whatwg in:spam
  377. # [16:28] <annevk> or something like that
  378. # [16:29] <jcranmer> looks like gmail needs better "adaptive junk mial controls"
  379. # [16:29] <jcranmer> s/ia/ai/
  380. # [16:34] <Lachy> Philip`, have you tried contacting google and sending them a bug report about it?
  381. # [16:36] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  382. # [16:39] <annevk> interesting, WHATWG has now attraced crowd un-aware of what the W3C is doing
  383. # [16:39] <annevk> attracted*
  384. # [16:42] <Lachy> annevk, who is unaware?
  385. # [16:49] <annevk> the people talking about cross-site requests
  386. # [16:49] <annevk> and you, apparently :D
  387. # [16:52] <Lachy> ah, I hadn't read those mails yet
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  391. # [17:43] <billyjack> annevk: Frode Børli seems to have quite prolific of late as far as postings to whatwg go
  392. # [17:43] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
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  413. # [21:34] <mcarter> Hixie, whats the URI scheme for secure web socket... "wss://" ?
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  415. # [21:59] <Lachy> mcarter, I thought the web socket proposal just used HTTP URIs
  416. # [22:00] <Lachy> in which case, couldn't HTTPS be used for establishing secure connections?
  417. # [22:00] <mcarter> Yeah, thats what I had proposed. There had been discussion in here about the potential of using an alternative, such as "ws://"
  418. # [22:00] <mcarter> i'm just curious what a secure WebSocket would look like in the context of "ws://" as the URI
  419. # [22:02] <Lachy> ah, ok. I had missed that discussion. I'll read the logs about it later
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  427. # [23:35] <Hixie> wss:// makes sense to me
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  431. # Session Close: Sat Jun 21 00:00:00 2008

The end :)