/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-24 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 24 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@h69-11-138-21.nwblwi.dedicated.static.tds.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. # [00:00] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.124.117) (Remote closed the connection)
  5. # [00:00] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  6. # [00:01] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@216.239.45.19) (Connection timed out)
  7. # [00:02] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.58)
  8. # [00:03] <Philip`> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.shtml - someone should suggest they look at HTML5 and <time> instead of looking at RDFa :-)
  9. # [00:05] <hober> Philip`: indeed. <time> is just as invalid HTML 4 as RDFa, and has a much greater chance of being adopted by mainstream browsers.
  10. # [00:09] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  11. # [00:15] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Well, it wouldn't do that with the existing xpath code anyway
  12. # [00:15] <Philip`> Hmm, I'm 9 lines short of 10,000 in my canvas test cases
  13. # [00:15] <Philip`> Can anyone suggest one short test case to add? :-)
  14. # [00:15] <takkaria> SMIL+canvas if you're running out of ideas
  15. # [00:16] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Hmm.
  16. # [00:17] <Philip`> takkaria: I don't think that quite exists yet, and I don't think I particularly want to encourage it :-p
  17. # [00:17] <takkaria> hey, it worked for Acid3 ^_^
  18. # [00:19] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.160) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. # [00:19] * Philip` makes some editorial changes
  20. # [00:20] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Is it actually guaranteed to walk multiple times? I guess I was assuming it would perform a single walk and try to match each expression, but I didn't think about it very carefully or read the spec or anything
  21. # [00:20] <Philip`> 9998 lines
  22. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jgraham__: No, it isn't. But AFAIK more or less every implementation does.
  23. # [00:20] * Philip` adds a couple of blank lines for no good reason
  24. # [00:20] <Philip`> 10,000! Hooray
  25. # [00:21] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Well in that case I claim that my implementation was fine and that xpath people need to optimise their code more ;)
  26. # [00:21] <gsnedders> jgraham__: That's hard :)
  27. # [00:22] <jgraham__> So, they're cleverer than me! That's why they're writing the low level library and I'm writing the crappy micro-application on top
  28. # [00:22] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Me? Cleverer than you? :)
  29. # [00:22] <jgraham__> You've written an xpath implementation?
  30. # [00:22] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Well, hacked at one
  31. # [00:23] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I don't think my patches are actually publicly available anywhere
  32. # [00:23] <jgraham__> Which one?
  33. # [00:23] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Mainly 'cos the lead dev more or less vanished due to time constraints
  34. # [00:23] <gsnedders> http://sourceforge.net/projects/webpath/
  35. # [00:24] <Philip`> I like how the C++ STL provides abstraction in a way that doesn't hide all the performance characteristics
  36. # [00:25] <Philip`> but that seems pretty rare, and most libraries seem to not provide any information about what's going to give good/bad performance :-(
  37. # [00:27] <jgraham__> gsnedders: FWIW I think it is very likely that you are better are programming-type things than I am
  38. # [00:28] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I wouldn't say so — any difference between us is marginal, I'd say
  39. # [00:36] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@h69-11-138-21.nwblwi.dedicated.static.tds.net)
  40. # [00:37] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.228.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  41. # [00:39] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.228.1)
  42. # [00:46] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  43. # [00:46] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-8c758f42008dfcab)
  44. # [00:51] * Quits: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-67ff40963655a051) ("The computer fell asleep")
  45. # [00:52] <Philip`> Argh
  46. # [00:52] <Philip`> Doesn't WebKit have getImageData? :-(
  47. # [00:52] <Philip`> (particularly r34578 on Windows)
  48. # [00:52] <Hixie> some versions of webkit certainly have getImageData() support
  49. # [00:53] <Hixie> i need hsivonen
  50. # [00:53] <Philip`> I'd like some don't-crash-when-loading-the-default-home-page support too
  51. # [00:54] <Philip`> Argh again
  52. # [00:55] <othermaciej_> WebKit trunk has it afaik
  53. # [00:55] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  54. # [00:56] <Philip`> othermaciej: I'm using a (Windows) nightly that claims to be a week old but can't find any traces of its existence :-/
  55. # [00:57] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@h69-11-138-21.nwblwi.dedicated.static.tds.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  56. # [00:57] <Philip`> Argh yet again - the 3.1 release doesn't crash but it hangs forever on one of my tests cases
  57. # [00:57] <othermaciej> Philip`: olliej on #webkit might be able to help you
  58. # [00:58] <othermaciej> we'd also be glad to look at any hangs you've got
  59. # [00:58] <Philip`> Just got to work out which of these 175 test cases it is...
  60. # [01:00] <Philip`> Hmm, Beziers
  61. # [01:02] <Philip`> Hmm, non-finite Beziers
  62. # [01:03] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  63. # [01:03] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  64. # [01:05] <Hixie> interesting
  65. # [01:05] <Hixie> but logical
  66. # [01:05] <Hixie> hmm......
  67. # [01:06] * Hixie ponders the ins and outs of url behaviour shown by http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/
  68. # [01:06] <Hixie> i clearly need to do tests that use location.href...
  69. # [01:08] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.228.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  70. # [01:12] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  71. # [01:18] * Joins: tankldee (i=rje@chef.nerp.net)
  72. # [01:21] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip192.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  73. # [01:26] <Philip`> Preliminary canvas test results: Opera 9.5 scores 75.4%, Firefox 3.0 scores 67.4%, Safari 3.1 scores 76.5%
  74. # [01:27] <Philip`> s/Safari 3.1/WebKit nightly (on OS X where it doesn't crash like on Windows)/
  75. # [01:28] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-91f0732d283c0198)
  76. # [01:29] <othermaciej> Philip`: where's the test suite again?
  77. # [01:29] <othermaciej> there's gotta be some low hanging fruit in those compliance bugs
  78. # [01:29] <othermaciej> especially since I think we've got most of the missing features covered
  79. # [01:29] * Quits: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acbd175.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  80. # [01:30] <Philip`> othermaciej: It's currently on 192.168.2.10
  81. # [01:31] <othermaciej> Philip`: well that I probably can't run :-)
  82. # [01:31] <othermaciej> I'm surprised the WebKit nightly isn't higher, because I vaguely recall we were close to the other browsers even when we were missing get/putImageData and getDataURL and such entirely
  83. # [01:33] <Philip`> othermaciej: There's at least one trivial fix that could make about two dozen test cases pass
  84. # [01:33] <Philip`> (on setting fillStyle = 'something invalid')
  85. # [01:34] <othermaciej> Philip`: what do we do that's wrong in that case?
  86. # [01:35] <othermaciej> I'd actually love to have these tests folded into our regression test suite
  87. # [01:35] <othermaciej> maybe I can get someone enthusiastic about doing that
  88. # [01:36] <Philip`> othermaciej: It seems to set to rgba(0,0,0,0) instead of ignoring the set
  89. # [01:36] * Hixie 's mind explodes as he tries to deal with test cases that involve five distinct character encodings
  90. # [01:36] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/016.html
  91. # [01:36] <gavin_> phillip`: how big the delta is between your current test suite and the tests that were landed for mozilla earlier?
  92. # [01:37] <Philip`> othermaciej: I've already got lots of these in Mozilla's regression test suite, just by modifying the test-file-generation script to generate stuff in the expected format, which is reasonably straightforward (except my code is nasty and duplicative)
  93. # [01:38] <Philip`> (I did that for Mozilla since it seemed to be in more dire need of regression tests than WebKit ;-) )
  94. # [01:39] <othermaciej> Philip`: for our regression tests, just about any format should do as long as you can tell failure from either a plaintext dump or from the structure of the render tree
  95. # [01:39] <Philip`> gavin_: There was already a big delta between my test suite at the time of generating the Mozilla tests, and the Mozilla tests
  96. # [01:40] <othermaciej> I think the way your tests work, it should be possible to do the check based on text along, at least if getImageData is there so there's no need to check purely visually
  97. # [01:40] <Hixie> hm, i wonder what xhr says about dealing with non-ascii characters in urls tin its arguments
  98. # [01:40] <othermaciej> *on text alone
  99. # [01:40] <Philip`> since I skipped all the ones (about a quarter?) that didn't pass in Firefox on Linux and couldn't easily be marked as 'todo'
  100. # [01:41] <Philip`> Between the test suite at that time, and the test suite now, I've forgotten how many changes I've made but it's probably quite a few :-)
  101. # [01:41] * Hixie now needs annevk and hsivonen
  102. # [01:41] <othermaciej> Philip`: if we can get the test suite in the tree, even the failing ones, I bet many of the remaining tests would get fixed pretty quick
  103. # [01:42] <Philip`> othermaciej: There's about five or ten that require visual checking, but the rest can all work just with getImageData
  104. # [01:43] <Philip`> I expect a number of the tests are buggy, and many are unreasonably pedantic, so I would be surprised if anyone ever did pass them all :-)
  105. # [01:43] <othermaciej> I would definitely want either the tests or our implementation fixed in all such cases
  106. # [01:44] <Philip`> othermaciej: I probably won't have time tonight to try anything like that, but I'll see if I don't feel too lazy/bored tomorrow
  107. # [01:44] * Philip` is currently just waiting for the 10.5.3 update to install, which is taking approximately forever
  108. # [01:45] <roc> 10.5.3 is evil, I'm holding out for 10.5.4
  109. # [01:46] <Philip`> roc: Hmm, the "Stop" button is greyed out so I guess it's too late for me to be saved :-(
  110. # [01:46] <roc> does ebutler know about your test suite update?
  111. # [01:46] <roc> are you announcing it on a blog or something?
  112. # [01:47] <Philip`> I don't have a blog
  113. # [01:47] <Philip`> I haven't even finished it or uploaded it yet :-)
  114. # [01:47] <Hixie> feel free to use blog.whatwg.org
  115. # [01:47] <Philip`> s/it/the test suite/
  116. # [01:48] <roc> he should be able to update the Mozilla suite and maybe even fix some of the bugs ... although it'll be interesting to see how many are actually cairo bugs
  117. # [01:49] <Philip`> I'm planning to run it on Windows and Linux and OS X to see how many platform-dependent bugs there are
  118. # [01:50] <Philip`> but my results table will have too many columns, so I need some way to fix that...
  119. # [01:50] <roc> zoom
  120. # [01:51] <Philip`> Nobody seems to have implemented unidirectional zoom yet, so it'll make the rows too short
  121. # [01:52] <othermaciej> roc: what's wrong with 10.5.3?
  122. # [01:52] <Philip`> While I'm waiting for the OS X updater to finish being incredibly slow, I suppose I could make a fancy dynamic column-enabler thing
  123. # [01:54] <roc> othermaciej: my officemate has some problems with it, not sure of the details. And there is the insane bug regarding VerifiedDownloadPlugin which forced us do an RC3
  124. # [01:54] <gavin_> yeah I've heard of people having trouble with it too
  125. # [01:55] <roc> where if you just dlopen VerifiedDownloadPlugin, it "works" but then the OS hangs on shutdown
  126. # [01:55] <gavin_> I've avoided it so far
  127. # [01:55] <roc> and if you dlopen it again without a reboot in between, the process hangs in an unkillable way
  128. # [01:56] <roc> and no-one can figure out what that plugin is actually for, since it's not a real plugin
  129. # [02:03] * Philip` wonders if the updater is actually doing anything
  130. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: I asked around, it will be fixed in the next update
  131. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: the plugin is for Apple's signed Dashboard widget downloads
  132. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: I think it affects more than just Firefox and will be fixed RSN
  133. # [02:06] <roc> ok
  134. # [02:06] <roc> thanks
  135. # [02:08] <roc> we worked around it for FF3, but it affects FF2. Not too much since most of the time we won't reregister plugins on startup, but it will happen once every FF2 update and maybe when certain extensions are installed
  136. # [02:23] <Philip`> Alas, IE+excanvas doesn't have getImageData
  137. # [02:23] * Philip` clicks five hundred pass/fail buttons over a slightly laggy rdesktop connection
  138. # [02:30] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.107.58) (Remote closed the connection)
  139. # [02:31] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.139)
  140. # [02:32] <Philip`> Hixie: The commit-watchers subject lines seem to be unhelpfully truncated to lengths that assume I'm using a buggy 20-year-old mail client on a 72-character display, when actually I've got about half a thousand horizontal pixels waiting to be filled :-p
  141. # [02:33] <Hixie> heh
  142. # [02:33] <Hixie> it's 40 characters now i think
  143. # [02:33] <Hixie> what would you want? 80?
  144. # [02:36] <Philip`> Oh, maybe Gmail already truncates subjects when they're more than about 80ish characters
  145. # [02:36] <Philip`> in which case there's not enough space for great things in there :-(
  146. # [02:37] <Philip`> but if you put something like 80 in the emails then the subjects wouldn't be truncated any earlier than necessary
  147. # [02:37] <Philip`> so that would hopefully be a bit better
  148. # [02:37] <Hixie> i wonder how often i can ask microsoft a question before it becomes rude
  149. # [02:37] <Philip`> (Hooray, OS X finished updating itself)
  150. # [02:38] <Hixie> sure, i'll up it to 80
  151. # [02:45] <Philip`> Hmm, WebKit apparently loses 1.9% when moving from 10.5.2 to 10.5.3
  152. # [02:46] <Hixie> correctness or perf?
  153. # [02:46] <Philip`> Also, the 10.5.3 upgrade re-enables the incredibly annoying dim-the-screen-when-I-move-my-hands-near-the-keyboard misfeature
  154. # [02:46] <Philip`> Hixie: Correctness
  155. # [02:46] <Philip`> or incorrectness depending on whether my tests are correct or not
  156. # [02:46] <Hixie> fun
  157. # [02:47] <roc> could be a quartz issue
  158. # [02:47] <roc> quartz has some interesting bugs in 10.4
  159. # [02:48] <Philip`> Hmm, I think it's partly due to nondetermistic output from the test runner
  160. # [02:48] <Philip`> which is WebKit's fault so I'll still blame them
  161. # [02:51] <Philip`> Firefox 3 gains 1.5% by moving from Linux to OS X
  162. # [02:54] <Philip`> Actually, 2.1% if I avoid being too strict on some fuzzy gradient matches
  163. # [02:54] * Hixie wonders how they will "conclude"
  164. # [02:54] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0293.html
  165. # [02:55] <Hixie> (i thought i'd been pretty "concludey" already)
  166. # [02:59] <Philip`> IE+excanvas scores 31.7%
  167. # [03:01] <Philip`> (+/- some margin of error in my recording of its results)
  168. # [03:04] <takkaria> Hixie: do you plan to reply to that?
  169. # [03:06] <Hixie> not sure how to
  170. # [03:06] <Hixie> so probably not
  171. # [03:06] <Hixie> i'm happy to continue responding to the technical comments on that thread
  172. # [03:06] <Hixie> such as they are
  173. # [03:07] <roc> someone should reply and point out that it's default-deny; vendor extensions should be prefixed until they're accepted.
  174. # [03:07] * Hixie begins going through the entire spec removing "URI" and "IRI" and replacing them with the pointers to the URL section
  175. # [03:07] <Hixie> roc: be my guest
  176. # [03:07] <roc> you're forcing me to join public-html aren't you
  177. # [03:08] <Hixie> yup
  178. # [03:08] <Philip`> You can post to public-html without joining it
  179. # [03:08] <roc> true
  180. # [03:08] <roc> alright
  181. # [03:09] <Hixie> yay, go roc
  182. # [03:09] <roc> now if only GMail supported mailto: URLs
  183. # [03:09] <takkaria> dunno if people have seen http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/06/10/introducing-ie-emulateie7.aspx
  184. # [03:09] <Hixie> roc: i thought it did with ff3
  185. # [03:09] <roc> nah
  186. # [03:09] <Hixie> oh?
  187. # [03:09] <roc> not realy
  188. # [03:09] <Hixie> oh is the support half hearted?
  189. # [03:09] <roc> there's still no GMail URL in the right format
  190. # [03:10] <Hixie> i thought that had been fixed
  191. # [03:10] <roc> I wish
  192. # [03:10] * Hixie investigates
  193. # [03:10] <roc> there's https://mail.google.com/mail/?view=cm&tf=0&to=%s
  194. # [03:10] <roc> but that just takes an address
  195. # [03:12] <Hixie> was that added for firefox?
  196. # [03:12] <roc> no
  197. # [03:13] <Hixie> hm
  198. # [03:13] <takkaria> I can only assume that concluding will happen with the spec is in LC...#
  199. # [03:15] <Hixie> Philip`: is it better now?
  200. # [03:15] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html
  201. # [03:16] <Philip`> Hmm, still need to test Konqueror
  202. # [03:19] <Philip`> The main conclusion of my testing: Konqueror has the coolest looking <button>s
  203. # [03:19] * Hixie wonders how to define "parse a URL"
  204. # [03:22] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html - now with Konqueror, which is approximately tied with Opera and WebKit
  205. # [03:26] <Philip`> Hixie: That does look better
  206. # [03:26] <Philip`> (Thanks :-) )
  207. # [03:28] <Hixie> http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html is funny as hell
  208. # [03:33] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.58)
  209. # [03:35] * Philip` sees http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/06/23/securing-cross-site-xmlhttprequest.aspx
  210. # [03:37] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.58) (Client Quit)
  211. # [03:38] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.58)
  212. # [03:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.110.139) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  213. # [03:55] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-91f0732d283c0198) ("The computer fell asleep")
  214. # [03:56] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.58)
  215. # [03:57] * Joins: ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com)
  216. # [04:07] <Hixie> oh jeez
  217. # [04:07] <Hixie> parsing a URI reference requires knowing the scheme of the base URI
  218. # [04:07] <Hixie> someone please write URI5 so i don't have to deal with this nonsense
  219. # [04:08] <Hixie> bbl
  220. # [04:55] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  221. # [05:03] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@ip68-5-179-249.oc.oc.cox.net)
  222. # [05:20] * Joins: svl (n=me@203-114-180-16.dsl.sta.inspire.net.nz)
  223. # [05:20] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@ip68-5-179-249.oc.oc.cox.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  224. # [05:34] * Quits: svl (n=me@203-114-180-16.dsl.sta.inspire.net.nz) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  225. # [05:38] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  226. # [05:46] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  227. # [06:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  228. # [06:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  229. # [06:43] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  230. # [06:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  231. # [06:55] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  232. # [07:12] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
  233. # [07:21] <Hixie> does <base href=""> affect scripts?
  234. # [07:22] <Hixie> answer, yes.
  235. # [07:23] <Hixie> ...in safari.
  236. # [07:23] <Hixie> ...but not in IE
  237. # [07:23] <Hixie> nothing. is ever simple.
  238. # [07:29] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121-72-175-198.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  239. # [07:54] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com) ("leaving")
  240. # [07:54] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  241. # [07:59] <mcarter> i didn't know that URIs were so complicated
  242. # [08:00] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  243. # [08:08] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) ("leaving")
  244. # [08:09] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  245. # [08:11] <Hixie> man i wish the uri spec defined how to handle ill-formed uris
  246. # [08:12] * Hixie tries to work out how to mangle the bnf to support random characters in a ua-compatible way without redefining the whole parsing himself
  247. # [08:13] <takkaria> epic fail, from the sounds of it :/
  248. # [08:18] * Quits: lejoe_ (n=lejoe@ns1.local.ch)
  249. # [08:19] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  250. # [08:28] <Dashiva> [acgiowrt] (2) Define 'URL' and 'valid U [...]
  251. # [08:31] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  252. # [08:32] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  253. # [08:32] <Dashiva> Hixie: What's the [\w*] part first in the subject mean?
  254. # [08:33] <Hixie> who is affected
  255. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: you mentioned needing hsivonen and annevk
  256. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen!
  257. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#urls
  258. # [08:33] <Dashiva> So each letter is one person?
  259. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: "valid URL"
  260. # [08:34] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.9)
  261. # [08:34] <Hixie> Dashiva: g=gecko, v=validators, t=tools, r=gears, etc
  262. # [08:34] <Dashiva> ah
  263. # [08:34] <Dashiva> e=everyone?
  264. # [08:34] <Hixie> Dashiva: anne's script uses it for icons
  265. # [08:34] <Hixie> e=editorial only
  266. # [08:35] <Dashiva> I wonder about that [] edit then :)
  267. # [08:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: do you think that's ok, or do you think we should also make things that aren't valid URIs and IRIs valid?
  268. # [08:35] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's not purely editorial, but it doesn't yet affect anyone (e.g. nobody implements that yet)
  269. # [08:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: at least now your definition of validity isn't as bad as I expected it to be
  270. # [08:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: or should we go further, and make even URIs that have %-encoded bits that aren't UTF-8 invalid?
  271. # [08:36] <Dashiva> Hixie: Now that you're doing changes to the commit-watchers, could it be possible to get source above index as well?
  272. # [08:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think we shouldn't, since that may be the only way to link to a resource
  273. # [08:37] <Hixie> Dashiva: no idea how to do that
  274. # [08:37] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'm just using the script that came with svn
  275. # [08:37] <hsivonen> the last bullet point that depends on the encoding of the document sucks big time considering my current impl
  276. # [08:37] <Hixie> yeah
  277. # [08:37] <Hixie> required pretty massive changes to the spec, too
  278. # [08:39] <Hixie> right now the definition is the exact definition that takes what browsers do, and only allows valid URIs and IRIs to come out of it
  279. # [08:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: do browsers always convert the path component to URI according to UTF-8?
  280. # [08:39] <Hixie> i.e. (it's the least delta from the status quo that i could do)
  281. # [08:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: as far as i can tell, yes
  282. # [08:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: and they use the document encoding for the query component
  283. # [08:40] <Hixie> which is wacked beyond words
  284. # [08:40] <hsivonen> I take it that the behavior is interoperable and changing it would break the Web?
  285. # [08:40] <Hixie> so it seems
  286. # [08:40] <hsivonen> :-(
  287. # [08:40] <Hixie> yeah no kidding
  288. # [08:41] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/012.html
  289. # [08:41] <Hixie> if you want a headache
  290. # [08:41] <Hixie> there are up to six encodings involved in that testcase depending on how you count them
  291. # [08:42] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should extend Jing to pass around the character encoding of the document or if I should do something else
  292. # [08:42] <hsivonen> leaky abstractions
  293. # [08:42] <Hixie> documents have two character encodings
  294. # [08:43] <Hixie> the original one and the one after you set .charset
  295. # [08:43] <Hixie> browsers differ on which one to use when encoding the query component
  296. # [08:43] <hsivonen> crazy
  297. # [08:43] <hsivonen> well, Validator.nu doesn't support setting .charset
  298. # [08:44] <Hixie> right now i'm ignoring the original and only using the one you set using .charset
  299. # [08:44] <Hixie> but i don't know if that'll owrk
  300. # [08:44] <Hixie> work
  301. # [08:44] <Hixie> so anyway
  302. # [08:44] <hsivonen> and after all this, someone wanted to use non-UTF-8 with XHR
  303. # [08:45] <Hixie> yeah that's what i wanted to speak to anne about -- as far as i can tell, xhr doesn't mention any of this
  304. # [08:45] <hsivonen> this an insane amount of complexity to support people who can't be bothered to use UTF-8
  305. # [08:45] <Hixie> yes.
  306. # [08:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: anyway, does what the spec say now seem like the best compromise, or should we allow or disallow something that is currently disallowed or allowed?
  307. # [08:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: I may have a different opinion after I've thought about it more, but at the moment, it appears that the current text makes sense for authors
  308. # [08:53] <Hixie> k
  309. # [08:53] <hsivonen> although I don't like the idea of having to implement the last bullet point
  310. # [08:53] <Hixie> yeah
  311. # [08:53] <Hixie> i hear you
  312. # [08:54] <Hixie> like i said, speccing it was bad enough, i don't even want to think about what it means for you
  313. # [09:04] * Joins: lejoe (n=lejoe@195.226.16.50)
  314. # [09:08] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051103145.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  315. # [09:09] * Joins: lejoe_ (n=lejoe@ns1.local.ch)
  316. # [09:24] * Quits: lejoe (n=lejoe@195.226.16.50) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  317. # [09:31] <Hixie> some pretty funny things happen if you visit data://example.com/
  318. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Firefox leaks the URI to Google
  319. # [09:32] <Hixie> firefox just assumes it's a random non-uri string and does an "i'm feeling lucky" search
  320. # [09:32] <Hixie> opera is the funniest
  321. # [09:33] <Hixie> it tries to download a file "default"
  322. # [09:43] * Quits: lejoe_ (n=lejoe@ns1.local.ch) ("Off to some reality")
  323. # [09:44] <virtuelv> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.shtml
  324. # [09:46] <Hixie> yeah someone really should tell them about <time>
  325. # [09:50] <virtuelv> mwah, proprietary registration system
  326. # [09:51] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-183.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  327. # [09:53] <Lachy> I tried posting a comment, but it rejected it
  328. # [09:53] <Lachy> ah, it didn't like me using "<time>" because it complained about invalid XML.
  329. # [09:54] <virtuelv> Lachy: perhaps post the link plain-text?
  330. # [09:55] <Lachy> done
  331. # [09:57] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  332. # [10:00] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-183.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  333. # [10:00] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-183.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  334. # [10:01] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@acaq80.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  335. # [10:06] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  336. # [10:07] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247)
  337. # [10:12] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213.236.208.247) (Remote closed the connection)
  338. # [10:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@213.236.208.247)
  339. # [10:27] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  340. # [10:29] * Hixie begins to define how to resolve urls
  341. # [10:34] <Hixie> data:text/html;charset=iso-8859-1,<!DOCTYPE html><meta charset%3D"iso-8859-1"><script>document.write(document.charset)<%2Fscript><p><a href%3D"http%3A%2F%2Fdamowmow.com%3F%26%23x263a%3B&eacute;">test<%2Fa>
  342. # [10:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  343. # [10:37] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  344. # [10:39] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-51-171.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  345. # [10:41] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  346. # [10:41] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@213.236.208.247)
  347. # [10:42] <annevk> Hixie, I was thinking of referencing HTML5 URL from XMLHttpRequest...
  348. # [10:42] <annevk> Hixie, hope that answers your question
  349. # [10:50] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@213.236.208.247) (Remote closed the connection)
  350. # [10:55] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-b385c083fc0a42c0)
  351. # [11:00] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  352. # [11:21] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  353. # [11:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  354. # [11:21] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  355. # [11:21] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051103145.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  356. # [11:21] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g227023213.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  357. # [11:21] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  358. # [11:39] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  359. # [11:39] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  360. # [11:42] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  361. # [11:59] <Hixie> annevk: cool
  362. # [11:59] <Hixie> annevk: (i bet the people asking for the removal of references to html5 are going to love that! ;-) )
  363. # [12:10] <Philip`> Hixie: "(Such scripts would not be conforming, however, as xml:base attributes as not allowed in HTML documents.)" - second "as" should be "are"
  364. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: after head is now eating all end tags, and the spec text seems to have an error in the case label ("other" without any other cases). Is it intentional to eat *all* end tags there?
  365. # [12:12] <hsivonen> (I'm changing test cases to assume all end tags get eaten)
  366. # [12:15] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  367. # [12:16] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  368. # [12:21] <hsivonen> what's the difference between having a mailing list and having a WG in IETF terms?
  369. # [12:21] * hsivonen thought IETF mailing lists were effectively WGs
  370. # [12:23] <gsnedders> hsivonen: mailing lists can continue to exist after a charter has ended
  371. # [12:24] <hsivonen> (aside: I think chartering a WG to clarify but not to fix bugs is weird)
  372. # [12:27] <gDashiva> Only if you believe there are bugs :)
  373. # [12:28] <hsivonen> btw, eating end tags in after head as opposed to in head produces some unintuitive error messages
  374. # [12:28] <hsivonen> (I'm not sure which is better for comment and white space placement)
  375. # [12:30] <gsnedders> Anyone got any suggestions for learning Haskell/functional programming in general?
  376. # [12:31] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Scheme has got a nice book: SICP
  377. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
  378. # [12:31] <takkaria> ANSI Common Lisp is a fairly well-recommended book, too
  379. # [12:31] <gsnedders> I also must say I do rather suck at doing things from books: some interesting project and decent documentation is better for me
  380. # [12:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders: regarding SICP, see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
  381. # [12:35] <gsnedders> I still agree with ChrisWilson's comments a while back: "[23:33] <ChrisWilson> ...AAAAAAAnd this is why I think the first round of computer classes should be taught in C. zero-based indexing, sane pointers, and plenty of rope to hang yourself with."
  382. # [12:35] <gsnedders> (plenty is probably an understatement for someone new to programming)
  383. # [12:36] <takkaria> someone made a fair point that people who learn something like Java first are going to be better at thinking in OO, I don't remember where
  384. # [12:36] <Philip`> gsnedders: I've found the best suggestion is to have some program you want to write, for which $new_language is a suitable tool - otherwise I read a few pages of tutorials and then get fed up and do something else instead
  385. # [12:36] <takkaria> I started as a BASIC programmer, then learnt C, and I still don't get the fuss over OO :)
  386. # [12:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm not sure what program I want to write in it yet though :)
  387. # [12:37] <Philip`> takkaria: Sounds like a good reason to not learn something like Java first ;-)
  388. # [12:37] <gsnedders> I started in BASIC, then moved to OO-free PHP, then to OO-full PHP, then to Python
  389. # [12:37] <takkaria> Philip`: hehe
  390. # [12:38] <gsnedders> (with odd brief flirtations with various branches of C)
  391. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> people should learn XSLT first, if they really want to fug up their minds
  392. # [12:38] <takkaria> I also use Lua, which is a sufficiently different language from C that I program in it idiomatically
  393. # [12:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: Port html5lib to Haskell!
  394. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: I think that's probably a bit too big a first project
  395. # [12:38] <Philip`> (Warning: probably very bad idea)
  396. # [12:39] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk)
  397. # [12:39] <gsnedders> (most of the unis in the UK still have functional programming in the first or second semester, FWIW)
  398. # [12:40] <hsivonen> takkaria: I like to think of Java as C++ minus a lot of brokenness
  399. # [12:40] <Philip`> I like to think of Java as C++ minus all the fun bits
  400. # [12:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: I started working through YAHT FWIW
  401. # [12:40] <hsivonen> Java and garbage collection is nice. C and malloc is OK. I don't like thinking of what smart pointers are partially hiding.
  402. # [12:41] <takkaria> at one point I knew the syntax of C++, but that's slipped away over the years... all I see people who start in Java/C++ doing is creating lots of unnecessary classes for things which shouldn't be classes
  403. # [12:41] <Philip`> They're not hiding anything, they're just reference counting and RAII :-)
  404. # [12:41] <jgraham> http://darcs.haskell.org/yaht/yaht.pdf
  405. # [12:41] <takkaria> well, that's a lie, I clearly see them writing a lot of widely-used code too
  406. # [12:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: as has already been said, I can't work from tutorials really
  407. # [12:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I get a bit into it, then I just can't be bothered. Give me a project to work on!
  408. # [12:42] <Philip`> If it's Haskell, I guess it's best to have projects that don't involve IO
  409. # [12:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: I find the same, but I need to understand a little about how the language is supposed to work before I try doing stuff
  410. # [12:42] * gsnedders has never read a Python tutorial in his life
  411. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: I find Objective-C's manual refcounting more tracktable than smart pointers
  412. # [12:43] * jgraham only read the one on python.org
  413. # [12:43] <jgraham> Which is very short and incomplete
  414. # [12:43] <hsivonen> s/ck/c/
  415. # [12:43] <gsnedders> Obj-C is a nice language in a lot of ways
  416. # [12:43] <jgraham> but enough to get started
  417. # [12:44] * Philip` has been writing manual-refcounting code in plain C and doesn't really like it at all :-(
  418. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: did you have an autoreleasepool?
  419. # [12:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: I guess you could find a book, ignore all the text and just do the excercises
  420. # [12:45] <jgraham> ;)
  421. # [12:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: The exercises tend to be rather pointless and boring :P
  422. # [12:45] <gsnedders> (I did that with Obj-C)
  423. # [12:45] <takkaria> disagree :P
  424. # [12:46] <takkaria> I find it gets your head into the right mode of thinking
  425. # [12:46] <takkaria> but whatever floats your boat, I guess
  426. # [12:46] <gsnedders> takkaria: I've already drowned :)
  427. # [12:46] <takkaria> it's like doing logic derivations or exercise after excercise of maths, and I always found those useful
  428. # [12:46] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  429. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> hey, I seem to remember news about Forth being used by some Web-related project recently. Anybody else remember that? Maybe I dreamed it
  430. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> though that would be a really lame dream to have
  431. # [12:47] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Probably the Tamarin tracing thing
  432. # [12:47] <doublec> most likely
  433. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> ah yes
  434. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> doublec: yeah, was on your blog
  435. # [12:48] <Philip`> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/05/extending-tamarin-tracing-with-forth.html etc
  436. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> yup yup
  437. # [12:48] <doublec> that'll be it :)
  438. # [12:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, though I don't see how that'd help
  439. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: the autoreleasepool makes refcounting not suck
  440. # [12:50] <Philip`> (possibly because I just don't understand, but possibly because the returning-refcounted-objects-from-functions thing wasn't a problem since I just return stuff with a refcount of 1)
  441. # [12:50] <Philip`> *don't understand it
  442. # [12:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: the autoreleasepool keeps retain/alloc and (auto)releasing together
  443. # [12:54] <hsivonen> I'm now again at a point where the V.nu parser passes all html5lib tokenizer and tree builder tests
  444. # [12:54] <hsivonen> time to implement the new li/dd/dt/p stuff and break tests
  445. # [12:55] * takkaria is currently working on hubbub's (C html5 parser) treebuilder, implementing a chunk of it for the first time
  446. # [12:57] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  447. # [13:02] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-70-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  448. # [13:16] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-b385c083fc0a42c0)
  449. # [13:18] <roc> Is hubbub open source or an Opera thing?
  450. # [13:18] <takkaria> it's unrelated to opera entirely :)
  451. # [13:18] <takkaria> it's open-source, under the MIT licence
  452. # [13:18] <takkaria> it's being written as part of a web browser called NetSurf but is an independent library
  453. # [13:20] <hsivonen> svn: OPTIONS of '/svn/trunk/testdata/tree-construction': 502 Bad Gateway (https://html5lib.googlecode.com)
  454. # [13:20] <hsivonen> hmm.
  455. # [13:21] <hsivonen> works now
  456. # [13:21] <hsivonen> weird
  457. # [13:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: I see errors like that from googlecode occasionally
  458. # [13:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok.
  459. # [13:25] <jgraham> takkaria: Is the hubbub code avaliable anywhere?
  460. # [13:25] <takkaria> jgraham: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
  461. # [13:26] <takkaria> I hope to have the treebuilder mostly-complete by the end of next week, at which point it might actually become useful for someone
  462. # [13:27] <jgraham> takkaria: Cool
  463. # [13:27] <takkaria> the tokeniser has something like 99.3% code coverage, so I'm fairly sure it's OK :)
  464. # [13:27] <takkaria> s/code/test/
  465. # [13:31] <hsivonen> takkaria: I see you are using function per state. Can you suspend anywhere?
  466. # [13:32] <takkaria> AFAICS, there's no need to
  467. # [13:33] <takkaria> since each state quite happily takes one character at a time
  468. # [13:34] <hsivonen> ah. I didn't look far enough to see if you had split the multicharacter spec states
  469. # [13:36] <takkaria> those which do loop in the state will return if they get an out-of-data character, so it works quite well
  470. # [13:38] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@87.102.5.204)
  471. # [13:41] * hsivonen wishes the new P steps didn't have "act as if"
  472. # [13:42] <hsivonen> with the foreign content stuff, I guess I should just really run the "as if" code since inlining the behavior becomes complex
  473. # [13:47] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com)
  474. # [13:59] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@213.236.208.247) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  475. # [14:14] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  476. # [14:15] * Quits: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@ip68-5-179-249.oc.oc.cox.net)
  477. # [14:27] <hsivonen> whee! the new p/li/dd/dt stuff broke test cases
  478. # [14:34] <jcranmer> new list stuff?
  479. # [14:35] <hsivonen> jcranmer: the handling of list item tags changed a while ago
  480. # [14:39] <hsivonen> now I'm confused. the old spec matched IE8 with <ul><li></li><div><li></div><li><li><div><li><address><li><b><em></b><li></ul>
  481. # [14:39] <hsivonen> is the new spec deliberately not matching or did I misimplement the new spec?
  482. # [14:42] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-e17fc691e2fe64b9)
  483. # [14:57] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I misimplemented it
  484. # [15:02] <hsivonen> now only one test doesn't pass
  485. # [15:02] <hsivonen> let's see if that's intentional...
  486. # [15:05] <Philip`> weinig: http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.composite.canvas.destination-over (WebKit in 7th/8th columns) is tests for the drawImage(canvas, ...) problems I was having
  487. # [15:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  488. # [15:32] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  489. # [15:39] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  490. # [15:42] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  491. # [15:42] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  492. # [15:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  493. # [16:06] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  494. # [16:16] <weinig> thanks Philip`
  495. # [16:18] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip192.unival.com)
  496. # [16:18] * Quits: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@dsl51B6E423.pool.t-online.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  497. # [16:18] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  498. # [16:19] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  499. # [16:23] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2008Jun/ :/
  500. # [16:26] <annevk> I'm not sure why he talks about HTML form parameters, but maybe I'm missing something
  501. # [16:30] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@c-71-58-56-76.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  502. # [16:38] <annevk> Ah, common sense prevails: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2008Jun/0011.html
  503. # [16:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-51-171.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  504. # [16:43] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-74e815391ef7b19d)
  505. # [16:52] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-e17fc691e2fe64b9) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  506. # [16:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@58.157.21.205)
  507. # [16:58] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  508. # [16:58] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  509. # [16:59] <gDashiva> Deep: "W.r.t. XHTML 2.0 - it is not a big step from 1.1 - except perhaps philosophically."
  510. # [17:03] <zcorpan> gDashiva: pointer?
  511. # [17:04] <gDashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Jun/0030.html
  512. # [17:09] * Quits: deane (n=dean@121-72-175-198.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  513. # [17:29] <gDashiva> It's kinda refreshing to read Luca's replies, free of political restraint :)
  514. # [17:37] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  515. # [17:44] <zcorpan> it seems that Luca's problem is that the BP reference XHTML 1.1 Basic instead of HTML5...?
  516. # [17:51] <annevk> good laugh: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/06/19-tagmem-minutes#item04
  517. # [17:56] <annevk> notably "I think this fork in the web is a really bad thing..." and 'document.write is too far deployed to say "don't do that"?'
  518. # [17:57] <annevk> oh, and "document.write is the actual dividing issue" and "xhtml + css is a hands-down winner with authors and to add html tag soup is pushed by the browsers who have the implementations"
  519. # [18:00] <hober> Why do people think HTML UAs are "legacy?"
  520. # [18:01] <Philip`> hober: Any code or content is legacy as soon as it is deployed :-)
  521. # [18:01] <hober> heh.
  522. # [18:04] <zcorpan> that's why xhtml2 UAs aren't legacy
  523. # [18:04] <Dashiva> (and never will be, zing)
  524. # [18:04] <hsivonen> hah
  525. # [18:10] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  526. # [18:15] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g227023213.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]")
  527. # [18:26] <jgraham> sometimes I wonder if most of the TAG have ever gone to a random web page and used View Source
  528. # [18:29] <Philip`> You have to be careful how you pick a "random" page
  529. # [18:30] <jgraham> Well in lieu of a good way of selecting a rnadom web page, a selection of popular commercial sites would be fine.
  530. # [18:30] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-74e815391ef7b19d)
  531. # [18:36] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4d807a68b5f61718)
  532. # [18:45] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.145)
  533. # [18:51] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  534. # [18:58] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  535. # [19:06] * Parts: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4d807a68b5f61718)
  536. # [19:29] <virtuelv> sigh
  537. # [19:29] <virtuelv> people in 2008 still seem to think that XML/XHTML and namespaces is some magic bullet that frees them from every problem in the universe
  538. # [19:30] <virtuelv> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/info/6oo5r/comments/
  539. # [19:30] <virtuelv> I don't think I'm even going to bother replying
  540. # [19:31] <Philip`> It would be kind of bad for accessibility tools if everyone used namespaces so there were three billion possible elements and attributes that they would need to know contain human-readable text that should be presented to the user
  541. # [19:33] <jgraham> virtuelv: It seems worth replying because, on the face of it, their argument sounds sensible. The kind of argument that Philip` just made and that hsivonen makes against namespaces in HTML in principle (rather than XML namespace syntax) is rather subtle
  542. # [19:34] <virtuelv> jgraham: while it might be worth replying, I'm having one of those days where I doubt I would bother staying civilized
  543. # [19:34] <Philip`> Presumably the good solution is to use the single <abbr title> thing for everything that's acceptably close to human-readable abbreviation titles, and then use something else for the cases like hCalendar where that's just wrong
  544. # [19:34] <Philip`> and valid HTML4 doesn't provide any hooks for you to do that "something else"
  545. # [19:34] <jgraham> virtuelv: Oh well in that case maybe worth someone else replying :)
  546. # [19:35] <Philip`> so people are forced to make a bad decision
  547. # [19:35] <hober> Cooking up a good solution in #microformats
  548. # [19:35] <tantek> indeed
  549. # [19:36] <Philip`> but namespaces do allow that extensibility so they don't force you to shove inappropriate things into <abbr title> and so they allow good designs and are therefore good
  550. # [19:36] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk) ("leaving")
  551. # [19:36] <tantek> the promise of solution via extensibility is a false promise
  552. # [19:36] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk)
  553. # [19:36] <tantek> extensibility = babel
  554. # [19:37] <Philip`> Extensibility isn't a solution itself, but inextensibility sometimes prevents you from finding a solution
  555. # [19:38] <Philip`> (unless the inextensible system is sufficiently complete that it provides a solution already)
  556. # [19:39] <Dashiva> The extensibility thing reminds me of something Spolsky said abouts spec writing.
  557. # [19:39] <Dashiva> "And now certain geeks go off to a very dark place where they start thinking about automatically compiling specs into programs, and they start to think that they’ve just invented a way to program computers without programming."
  558. # [19:39] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@dsl51B6E423.pool.t-online.hu)
  559. # [19:40] <jgraham> Dashiva: I thought that was what RDF was for...
  560. # [19:41] <Dashiva> Yeah, RDF is awesome, you just have to download the internet to resolve all the references
  561. # [19:42] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's not a problem - just delegate the job to Google
  562. # [19:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  563. # [19:49] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@mba0736d0.tmodns.net)
  564. # [19:50] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.228.1)
  565. # [19:52] <tantek> I've come to realize that XML should really expand to "eXperimentation Markup Language" - as in, XML may be good for experiments, for explorations, but not for actual solutions.
  566. # [19:55] * Quits: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  567. # [19:56] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  568. # [19:56] <virtuelv> well, if someone decides to reply to the xhtml apologists in that reddit thread, why not just make it a blog post, which can be discussed independently?
  569. # [19:57] <Philip`> virtuelv: That loses the immediacy of arguing directly in the comment thread, and most people will be too lazy to read the blog post
  570. # [20:06] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@mba0736d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  571. # [20:12] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.9) (Remote closed the connection)
  572. # [20:14] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  573. # [20:24] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@ip68-5-179-249.oc.oc.cox.net)
  574. # [20:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  575. # [20:34] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  576. # [20:52] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g227023213.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  577. # [21:12] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  578. # [21:15] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.9)
  579. # [21:21] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  580. # [21:25] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  581. # [21:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  582. # [21:31] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  583. # [21:32] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  584. # [21:37] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  585. # [21:38] <takkaria> hmm, the TAG don't really think document.write() will ever go away, do they?
  586. # [21:38] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  587. # [21:39] <gsnedders> takkaria: Oh, probably they do think it will.
  588. # [21:39] <takkaria> I was hoping DanC wouldn't think that, really...
  589. # [21:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  590. # [21:41] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  591. # [21:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  592. # [21:42] <Philip`> The need to use document.write() when writing new content may go away
  593. # [21:42] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  594. # [21:42] <Philip`> which seems a much more realistic goal
  595. # [21:43] <Philip`> and arguably a useful one since document.write() is crazy and confusing and so it'd be nice if alternatives were provided so that all use cases could be solved without document.write()
  596. # [21:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: there's no way browser vendors would pull document.write() support, though, so it needs to be specified and implmented
  597. # [21:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: Indeed
  598. # [21:44] <jgraham> Philip`: Authors seem to like document.write which suggestss that they just avoid the crazy bits
  599. # [21:45] <hsivonen> yeah. It's not too crazy when there's only one level of it
  600. # [21:45] <jgraham> (much as I dislike document.write, I guess it is one of the most successful parts of the DOM in terms of usage)
  601. # [21:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  602. # [21:46] <Philip`> There's the "I don't want to switch my site to XHTML because it'll break all my (ad provider's) document.write code" which could be solved if more people didn't think document.write was a useful/necessary feature
  603. # [21:46] <Philip`> *the "..." argument
  604. # [21:46] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  605. # [21:47] <Philip`> which is relevant in terms of the everyone-should-gradually-migrate-to-XHTML view of the future
  606. # [21:47] <jgraham> You seem to have misse out the word dystopian somewhere
  607. # [21:48] * jgraham decides it is time to go home
  608. # [21:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  609. # [21:48] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk) ("leaving")
  610. # [21:49] <Philip`> Hmm, now I remember why it's a bad idea to provide test results
  611. # [21:49] <Philip`> I want to make some minor updates to my tests, but I don't want the published results to be out of sync with the tests, but I don't want to run the tests in ten different browsers again :-(
  612. # [21:50] <Philip`> I guess I'll leave the updates offline for now, until I get non-lazy enough to do another iteration of the whole process
  613. # [21:51] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-183.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  614. # [21:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, it's intentional to eat all end tags, and "all other" is just for consistency with the rest of the spec, though i guess i should make that clear. i've noted your e-mail on the subject.
  615. # [22:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. thanks. Did you notice that deferring tag eating until after head (as opposed to in head) makes error situations a bit weird?
  616. # [22:00] <Hixie> i noticed you noticing it, i don't recall it being intentional
  617. # [22:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. might be worth fixing if it doesn't cause badness with comments and whitespace. (I haven't investigated if that is the case.)
  618. # [22:01] <Hixie> you sent mail right?
  619. # [22:01] <hsivonen> I didn't.
  620. # [22:01] <Hixie> ah ok
  621. # [22:01] <Hixie> send mail :-)
  622. # [22:02] <Hixie> right now i'm so far from caring about hte parser section that it's not even funny :-)
  623. # [22:02] <Hixie> too deeply stuck in the mud that is uris
  624. # [22:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: I filed a bug.
  625. # [22:06] <Hixie> that works too
  626. # [22:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I send mail to whatwg about SVG <defs><font> or does the remark in the middle of a public-html email count?
  627. # [22:09] <Philip`> It's already in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3C14B846F4-08C1-4A5D-8E19-B4ECCF25122F%40iki.fi%3E
  628. # [22:09] <hsivonen> thanks
  629. # [22:10] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-38d7fd827eda2f4e)
  630. # [22:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: the remark counts
  631. # [22:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: however i don't know what to do about it
  632. # [22:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: the svg <font>s overwhelm the html <font>s in my data, so visual inspection doesn't work
  633. # [22:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: and i'm not sure how else to distinguish them
  634. # [22:14] <Hixie> ooh, maybe attributes
  635. # [22:15] <hsivonen> I was thinking that a <defs> parent would reduce the probability of <font> being a cargo cult HTML <font>
  636. # [22:16] <Hixie> right but i still have to test it
  637. # [22:19] <Philip`> What the children of <font>? If a child is an HTML element or plain text, then presumably it's an HTML <font>; otherwise the children are probably SVG elements
  638. # [22:19] <Philip`> *What about the
  639. # [22:19] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like valid SVG can have <font> outside <defs> :-(
  640. # [22:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: making a decision based on children would seriously suck in the tree builder
  641. # [22:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: because you haven't seen the children when you need to deal with <font>
  642. # [22:20] <hsivonen> inspecting attributes seems like a much better idea
  643. # [22:21] <Philip`> hsivonen: The <font> could always be interpreted as an SVG <font>, and the tree builder could break out of SVG mode once it's realised a child is wrong
  644. # [22:21] <Philip`> which would slightly break the formatting of the HTML content, since the <font> would no longer be an HTML <font>
  645. # [22:22] <Philip`> but that's only a minor formatting problem, not a make-the-whole-rest-of-the-page-invisible problem
  646. # [22:25] * tantek wonders if Google Adsense provides an XHTML-friendly way to include Adsense ads in pages (as opposed to the document.write methods). And if not, is Hixie talking with those folks?
  647. # [22:27] * Philip` imagines they might have concerns about what to do when people use the XHTML-AdSense inside text/html pages
  648. # [22:28] <Philip`> and I guess they'd prefer not to serve code for both HTML and XHTML insertion and dynamically choose between them, since that makes the ads bigger and slower
  649. # [22:29] <hsivonen> IIRC, the conspiracy theory was that Google couldn't figure out how to make AdSense work with XHTML, so they hired Hixie to write HTML5 and kill XHTML
  650. # [22:29] <Philip`> and the risk of confusing the tens of percent of people who think they're using XHTML, just to benefit the zero percent who are really using XHTML, doesn't seem great :-(
  651. # [22:29] <hsivonen> (I don't recall the source of the conspiracy theory)
  652. # [22:30] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.228.1)
  653. # [22:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: presumably, a single piece of code could assemble ads in both XHTML and HTML and use if (document.createElementNS) to decide whether to use createElementNS or createElement
  654. # [22:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: That code would be more bytes, so the ads would be bigger and slower
  655. # [22:33] <Philip`> Only a tiny bit, but a tiny bit multiplied by billions of views per day makes the viewers unhappy
  656. # [22:53] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  657. # [22:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  658. # [22:57] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  659. # [23:08] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  660. # [23:15] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@dsl51B6E423.pool.t-online.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  661. # [23:17] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  662. # [23:18] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81)
  663. # [23:22] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.160)
  664. # [23:32] * roc wonders why CSS 2.1 says that 'overflow' doesn't apply to table row groups, when the Web says it does
  665. # [23:35] * Parts: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  666. # [23:35] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  667. # [23:40] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  668. # [23:41] * jgraham__ wonders why roc is surprised at a disconnect between specs and reality
  669. # [23:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  670. # [23:42] <jgraham__> Did someone already point out http://mochaui.com/demo/ It claims to be a GUI toolkit that uses lots of <canvas> for rendering
  671. # [23:43] <hsivonen> is it accessible?
  672. # [23:44] <roc> that's pretty cool
  673. # [23:44] <roc> It's great to see canvas and SVG usage increasing
  674. # [23:46] <jgraham__> hsivonen: Well it seems to use real text at least. But I doubt the interactivity is exposed to ATs
  675. # [23:47] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  676. # [23:47] <roc> I discovered that the Dirac codec documentation uses SVG and MathML very nicely
  677. # [23:47] <roc> http://dirac.sourceforge.net/documentation/algorithm/algorithm/quantisation.xht
  678. # [23:47] <hsivonen> hmm. Why does mochaui work in Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 but not in a WebKit nightly?
  679. # [23:50] <jgraham__> roc: Oh, that's pretty. I'm so used to seeing crappy Latex2HTML gifs for maths on the web that it comes as a bit of a surprise that Maths-on-the-web doesn't have to be eye-bleedingly ugly
  680. # [23:50] <hsivonen> yeah, it's cool to see MathML usage on the Web
  681. # [23:51] <Philip`> That MathML is kind of horribly ugly and broken in Opera, though
  682. # [23:52] <Philip`> (partly since it doesn't understand &nbsp;, and partly since things like the floor symbol don't get stretched vertically at all)
  683. # [23:52] <roc> you really have to author specifically for the CSS-MathML subset in Opera, I think
  684. # [23:53] <Philip`> (Also the v-tilde has a whole line-height of space in its middle)
  685. # [23:54] <Philip`> Is this something Opera could fix via CSS, or would they have to really implement MathML?
  686. # [23:54] <roc> I'm too lazy to figure that out rightnow
  687. # [23:55] <Philip`> Fair enough :-)
  688. # [23:55] <roc> huh, Webkit doesn't support scrollable table row gorups
  689. # [23:55] * roc wonders why so many people file bugs about them against Gecko, then
  690. # [23:56] * Parts: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g227023213.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  691. # [23:56] <roc> neither does Opera
  692. # [23:59] <jgraham__> roc: The HTML 4 spec suggests that UAs might implement scrollable table row groups
  693. # Session Close: Wed Jun 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)