/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: To elaborate on my brief point earlier, text-as-nodes doesn't make for a nice api because they always get in the way when trying to do sensible tree navigation type things where you only really want elements, so you end up having to define a whole seperate API for tree navigation (ElementTraversal)
  6. # [00:17] <jgraham> But I guess you realised that was my point
  7. # [00:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, they have obvious flaws, but I think in a lot of ways nicer.
  8. # [00:18] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  9. # [00:18] <jgraham> Well .text isn't too bad, it's the weird .tail thing in elementtree that sucks
  10. # [00:18] <gsnedders> yeah
  11. # [00:18] <gsnedders> But there's no way around that with the .text
  12. # [00:19] <jgraham> Not an obvious one at least
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  16. # [00:35] <jgraham> Lachy: I think a character reference that told authors how to include any character, not just those with named references, would be nice, especially as there are problems using named references
  17. # [00:36] <jgraham> s/reference/pallete/ maybe
  18. # [00:36] <webben> could just link to ishida's converter
  19. # [00:36] <webben> http://rishida.net/scripts/uniview/conversion.php
  20. # [00:36] <webben> as step 1
  21. # [00:38] <Philip`> There should be a thing where you can draw the shape you want using your mouse and it'll search for the matching character
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  24. # [00:43] <webben> sounds like a use-case for a direct-drawing API ;)
  25. # [00:43] <jgraham> webben: That's way more complex than I had in mind. I basically want a way to search for characters with "alpha" in their name or description and get a glyph and an idea of how to include them in my html document
  26. # [00:44] <jgraham> Philip`: That would be awesome
  27. # [00:44] <webben> http://rishida.net/scripts/pickers/ worth a look too
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  78. # [07:08] <heycam> Hixie, typo in html5: s/one or mode/one or more/
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  105. # [09:44] <hsivonen_> lots of logs to read...
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  113. # [10:00] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: Tokenizer errors are in Tokenizer.java, tree builder errors in TreeBuilder.java. XML errors are in the xmlparser module
  114. # [10:01] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: RELAX NG errors are in onvdl/src//Users/hsivonen/Projects/whattf/onvdl/src/com/thaiopensource/relaxng/impl/resources/Messages.properties
  115. # [10:01] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: non-schema errors are in the non-schema module
  116. # [10:01] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: in summary: messages are all over the place. :-(
  117. # [10:02] <hsivonen_> mainly because each component is supposed to be reusable on its own and, therefore, needs to contain its own messages
  118. # [10:02] <hsivonen_> or came from a third party that way
  119. # [10:03] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: warning about inferred tags would be an XML parity advocacy feature
  120. # [10:03] <hsivonen_> zcorpan: checking for indentation doesn't seem to come with a similar competitive consideration
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  122. # [10:05] <hsivonen_> annevk: if someone wants to use XHR to POST text/html from a browser by giving the content as a string to XHR, they need to set Content-Type and, hence, still need OPTIONS, right?
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  137. # [10:45] <hsivonen_> re: data-* and microformats: It seems to me that it would be better to have a fast-track way for microformats.org to get attributes added to HTML validation.
  138. # [10:46] <hsivonen_> Validator.nu already supports custom schemas in case a user doesn't want to wait for the presets to change
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  146. # [11:05] <hsivonen_> roc: Re: parsing perf and case preserving: It might be OK to make the tokenizer conditionally case folding. What's bad for performance is deferring case folding to after the tokenizer, since early interning of tokens is desirable. (not only interning the string but mapping to a static token object that has the 'scoping' etc flags, the tree builder dispatch group magic number, etc.)
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  148. # [11:08] <hsivonen_> I do camelCase fixes for SVG by having the static pre-interned tokens carry a reference to a camelCased string
  149. # [11:08] <Philip`> hsivonen_: Can't you have each token contain both the original un-case-folded string and the interned static case-folded token object?
  150. # [11:08] <hsivonen_> so the camelCasing is zero-cost in execution time and only cost memory footprint
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  152. # [11:09] <hsivonen_> Philip`: then I couldn't share the same objects for each concurrent parser instance
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  154. # [11:09] <hsivonen_> Philip`: the well-known tokens are statics that go in memory at initialization time and are then shared by all threads
  155. # [11:10] <hsivonen_> I guess I should reply on list to SVG WG's proposal and explain how I do token interning and tree builder dispatch
  156. # [11:11] <roc> the token objects refer back to the source right?
  157. # [11:11] <hsivonen_> roc: they don't
  158. # [11:11] <roc> hmm, someone claimed that they do
  159. # [11:11] <hsivonen_> roc: Hixie got that part wrong about how I implemented it
  160. # [11:12] <roc> ok
  161. # [11:12] <roc> I'm surprised that round-trippability of source is not a concern here
  162. # [11:13] <hsivonen_> roc: the DOM doesn't represent inter-attribute whitespace, either
  163. # [11:13] <roc> since HTML5 specifies (and Acid3 tests) round-trippability of attribute values, I assumed full round-trippability was the way the wind was blowing
  164. # [11:13] <roc> that's true
  165. # [11:13] <hsivonen_> roc: round tripping source on the level that preserves meaningless details is a huge hassle
  166. # [11:13] <hsivonen_> and would interfere with the primary use cases of a parser
  167. # [11:14] <hsivonen_> (at least for perf considerations)
  168. # [11:14] <hsivonen_> round-trippability of attribute values is different
  169. # [11:17] <Philip`> Is parser performance a significant issue in practice, compared to networking and scripting and everything else involved in loading a page?
  170. # [11:17] <hsivonen_> I find I pretty much agree with takkaria's feedback regarding the SVG proposal
  171. # [11:17] <roc> yes
  172. # [11:18] <Philip`> The author-visible aspects of the language seem like they should be much more important than the optimisation details of some specific parser implementations
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  174. # [11:19] <roc> I agree
  175. # [11:19] <hsivonen_> Philip`: it seems to me that early interning is a general implementation concern--not just a concern for a specific impl
  176. # [11:20] <roc> maybe
  177. # [11:20] <roc> designing around implementation details is risky because later on those implementation details might not matter, or might be broken by another spec change
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  179. # [11:21] <roc> see my comments about SVG filters
  180. # [11:22] <hsivonen_> roc: OTOH, it really sucks to get parts of infrastructure that are really inconvenient in practice (e.g. Namespaces)
  181. # [11:23] <roc> it does, but that's life writing Web browsers
  182. # [11:23] * hsivonen_ guesses that Gecko's XML parsing could be faster if nsIAtoms for element local names could be built much earlier
  183. # [11:24] <roc> I never did figure out why the SVG WG's proposal actually needs to preserve case in tokens, though
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  188. # [12:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: you around?
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  190. # [12:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sent mail anyway now
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  193. # [12:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok (re messages etc)
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  204. # [13:59] <zcorpan_> krijnh: feature request for the logs: at the bottom please have links to the previous and next day
  205. # [14:07] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-03361b1a902890e2)
  206. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> that favicon game got me inspired
  207. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> i think i'll implement a creepy favicon that looks at the cursor later today
  208. # [14:11] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-160-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  209. # [14:20] <mpt> zcorpan_, call it xeyes 2.0 BETA
  210. # [14:36] * Quits: richardigel (n=chatzill@217.17.201.99) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  211. # [14:56] <takkaria> I don't see how you can get acceptable performance from an HTML5 parser without some kind of string interning
  212. # [14:57] <virtuelv> mpt: Xeys, even
  213. # [15:00] * Quits: harig (n=harig_in@122.160.12.230) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  214. # [15:01] <mpt> touch´
  215. # [15:01] <gsnedders> takkaria: Well, implement it in a totally different way to how it is spec'd :P
  216. # [15:02] <takkaria> well, if you have a treebuilder, and you have comparisons on tag name, either you do string comparisons multiple times per tag or you do a simple integer comparison, probably using switch() or the equivalent thereof
  217. # [15:02] <Philip`> takkaria: It's trivial - just lower your expectations
  218. # [15:03] <Philip`> "Acceptable" is purely subjective, and you are the subject, so you can choose to accept anything :-)
  219. # [15:05] <takkaria> by "acceptable" I mean "anywhere near competing with browser speeds"
  220. # [15:06] <takkaria> or even just libxml2 speed, really
  221. # [15:06] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d6bdbbca4d7247b1)
  222. # [15:06] <Philip`> Presumably you need some kind of "unknown" token that includes the (case-folded) original source string, when it's not one of the default set of internable strings; so I'm still not sure why you can't just do the same for known tags, and carry around the original (unfolded) string in case you need it in the tree constructor, as well as the folded interned integer for fast switching
  223. # [15:07] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  224. # [15:09] <takkaria> the thought of doing that makes me cringe, I'd have to rerewrite a chunk of hubbub that I'm only just finishing off rewriting
  225. # [15:09] <takkaria> :)
  226. # [15:12] <Philip`> When balancing some inconvenience for early implementers like you by breaking your optimisation assumptions, versus some inconvenience for the whole of humanity for the rest of eternity by not designing the best possible language, I think you're on the losing side :-p
  227. # [15:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  228. # [15:13] <takkaria> I'm just not sure why people want thee tokeniser to case-preserve
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  230. # [15:13] * richardigel_ is now known as richardigel
  231. # [15:14] <gsnedders> takkaria: Gecko keeps it for one or two mainly irrelevant things
  232. # [15:17] <Philip`> takkaria: I think I'd be happier if people argued that way in terms of whether it's the best possible language for authors, and didn't use "but I already implemented this stuff that's commented out in a recently-written controversial section of a draft spec, and it'd take lots of work to change and I'd have to rethink my optimisation approach" as an argument for anything :-)
  233. # [15:18] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-03361b1a902890e2) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. # [15:20] <takkaria> all I'm saying is this; the spec currently makes case-folding mandatory. if there is a reason to change it, then change it, by all means, but if the reason is because the SVG group don't want "<SVG>" to start an SVG block, then I'm not convinced
  235. # [15:22] * hdh0000 is now known as hdh
  236. # [15:25] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Gecko does what? Gecko's internal tree API wants to see element names as nsIAtoms which are essentially interned strings
  237. # [15:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: case-preserve
  238. # [15:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: and the well-known lower-case HTML names are pre-interned
  239. # [15:27] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-13-237.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  240. # [15:28] <Philip`> takkaria: If the only case it's ever needed is to detect <SVG>, just add a one-bit flag to tokens to say "this token name was 'svg' in lowercase", and the tokeniser can set that before it does its standard case folding
  241. # [15:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  242. # [15:29] <Philip`> (Please note that I have no idea how sensible tokenisers are implemented, so I could be entirely wrong about everything :-) )
  243. # [15:32] <takkaria> it would be an arse to do that in hubbub
  244. # [15:33] <takkaria> I can't imagine it being a significant perf loss to special-case "svg" but all the same, I'd want to avoid it
  245. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I just sent email recounting why I don't want late case folding
  246. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: of course, I think what I'm doing is sensible :-)
  247. # [15:34] <takkaria> given that e.g. it would have roughly the same effect as passing it through to the xml processor (it wouldn't display since tag names are in the wrong case)
  248. # [15:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It obviously isn't sensible, because you're doing it
  249. # [15:34] <takkaria> nice to see the odd ad hominem still in use :)
  250. # [15:34] <gsnedders> :P
  251. # [15:35] <gsnedders> takkaria: The thing is anyone around here for long enough should know I don't mean it at all :P
  252. # [15:35] <Philip`> Clearly the sensible thing would be to not write an HTML5 parser, and to do something nicer instead
  253. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Write an XML5 parser!
  254. # [15:36] * Quits: _bjordan (n=bjordan@c-24-62-26-35.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [15:36] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-84-21.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  256. # [15:36] <hsivonen> hmm. Mail.app made my quoting ugly :-(
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  261. # [15:45] <takkaria> hsivonen: that mail must have taken you a long time to write
  262. # [15:47] <gsnedders> Mail.app sux.
  263. # [15:47] * gsnedders needs to find a better mail client
  264. # [15:50] <jcranmer> gsnedders: telnet?
  265. # [15:50] <gsnedders> jcranmer: better, I said.
  266. # [15:50] <jcranmer> oh, you're using Mail.app, not Outlook
  267. # [15:51] <takkaria> thunderbird 3 might be an upgrade
  268. # [15:51] <takkaria> of course, you have to wait a while. :)
  269. # [15:52] <jcranmer> only 6-ish months
  270. # [15:52] <gsnedders> Provided it fixed the idiotic UI behaviour.
  271. # [15:52] <gsnedders> :P
  272. # [15:52] <jcranmer> which idiotic UI behavior?
  273. # [15:52] <gsnedders> (Like, don't come up with your own behaviour for things, do what everything else does)
  274. # [15:52] <jcranmer> ah
  275. # [15:52] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  276. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Like, cmd+scroll with scroll wheel should have the same affect as without cmd
  277. # [15:53] <gsnedders> (yes, I do randomly hold cmd down)
  278. # [15:53] <takkaria> I also hope that they figure out how to let me connect to my own mail server over SSL with a self-signed cert without me having to go through the rigmarole that tb3 currently puts me through
  279. # [15:53] <jcranmer> I think that's FF's fault
  280. # [15:54] <gsnedders> It's been a while since I've played around with TB, and I can't remember what annoys me in Gecko and what annoys me in TB :P
  281. # [15:56] <Philip`> Thunderbird shows me a list of my emails and lets me click on them to read them, and that's good enough for me
  282. # [15:56] <gsnedders> I want sane threading.
  283. # [15:57] <jcranmer> I want free email clients to actually generate I-R-T and References: correctly
  284. # [15:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, compared with Mail.app, Thunderbird gives very sane threading, unlike Mail.app's confusing threading
  285. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: True, but TB annoys me in other ways.
  286. # [15:57] <jcranmer> besides, TB uses the unofficial official threading algorithm
  287. # [15:57] <Lachy> jcranmer, what?
  288. # [15:58] <jcranmer> Lachy: the algorithm in the expired draft RFC
  289. # [15:58] <Lachy> which one?
  290. # [15:59] <jcranmer> hmm, I can't find it ATM, but RFC 5256 references http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html for threading
  291. # [16:01] <jcranmer> although the algorithm is given by jwz, so be prepared to meet bile at any product other than NS2
  292. # [16:01] <gsnedders> NS2?
  293. # [16:02] <takkaria> netscape 2
  294. # [16:02] <gsnedders> ah
  295. # [16:02] <jcranmer> netscape 2, jwz apparently hates ns 4 and anything later with a passion
  296. # [16:02] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  297. # [16:02] <Philip`> What about NS3?
  298. # [16:02] <jcranmer> he seems to be okay with that
  299. # [16:03] <jcranmer> my knowledge of early Netscape history is very little
  300. # [16:03] * gsnedders doesn't remember it either
  301. # [16:03] <gsnedders> But maybe that's more justifiable
  302. # [16:04] <Philip`> My (possibly incorrect) memory of that era is primarily that NS3 allowed you to set img.src in scripts, but that was the only dynamicity allowed, but then IE4 came out and you could dynamically change pretty much anything on the entire page, and I thought that was really cool
  303. # [16:04] <Philip`> (I also thought Java applets to do animated wobbly text were really cool)
  304. # [16:04] <gsnedders> So maybe you aren't he best person to judge objective coolness either.
  305. # [16:05] <Philip`> I'm not sure "objective coolness" is a concept that makes sense
  306. # [16:06] <takkaria> dynamicity is a terrible word
  307. # [16:07] <gsnedders> takkaria.name = 'bob'
  308. # [16:07] <gsnedders> That doesn't seem to work
  309. # [16:08] <takkaria> I'm obviously still running NS3. :)
  310. # [16:08] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-07b3c0ed1b8ff4e7)
  311. # [16:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: Besides, how dare you be kind to MS!
  312. # [16:08] * jcranmer notes that he actually has used telnet to check email, but only because he's trying to write an IMAP server and needs to correlate with a real IMAP server
  313. # [16:09] * gsnedders is listening to Finding My Way by Rush from Rush
  314. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Hmm, that had the undesired result
  315. # [16:09] * jcranmer also notes that /.'s knee-jerk reaction to MS is often unwarranted
  316. # [16:09] * gsnedders also notes that /.'s knee-jerk reaction to most things is often unwarranted :)
  317. # [16:10] * Philip` notes that knee-jerk reactions in general are often unwarranted
  318. # [16:12] * jcranmer notes that /me seems to be popular today
  319. # [16:12] <Philip`> takkaria: http://rubyhacker.com/coralbook/dynam.html is long enough to serve as adequate defence of my use of the word :-)
  320. # [16:14] * gsnedders notes the comments on digg are stupid
  321. # [16:14] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  322. # [16:14] <gsnedders> Godwin's Law invoked on the first comment.
  323. # [16:16] <gsnedders> And factually incorrect.
  324. # [16:16] <gsnedders> I'll be dugg down for saying why Hitler did actually hate the Jews, but so is life
  325. # [16:17] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip65.unival.com)
  326. # [16:18] <jcranmer> logic + /. / digg / etc. = NaN
  327. # [16:20] <gsnedders> :P
  328. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Lesson one of digg: Thou shalt not post the truth.
  329. # [16:21] <Philip`> Lesson zero: Thou shalt not post.
  330. # [16:22] <gsnedders> :)
  331. # [16:22] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8e9b626fc74c750f) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. # [16:22] <Philip`> Saves an awful lot of time and stress
  333. # [16:22] <gsnedders> It amazes me what manages to get dugg up at times though
  334. # [16:23] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  335. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Like, at time defending MS and putting down F/OSS gets dugg up.
  336. # [16:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  337. # [16:41] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  338. # [16:46] <takkaria> jcranmer: are IMAP servers not remotely like what the spec says they should be, then?
  339. # [16:46] <takkaria> the first rule of digg is actually to not look at digg, fwiw
  340. # [16:47] * Quits: _bjordan (n=bjordan@c-24-62-26-35.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  341. # [16:48] <takkaria> Philip`: it's still an ugly word without a nice-sounding pronounciation
  342. # [16:49] <jcranmer> takkaria: the spec is one of the most obfuscated I've ever read
  343. # [16:49] <jcranmer> if I were grading it for organization, I'd think a C would be on the high side
  344. # [16:50] <takkaria> I read it through when I was going to implement a webmail app but never got round to it
  345. # [16:51] <takkaria> my favpurite bit was always the modified UTF-7 encoding
  346. # [16:51] <Philip`> takkaria: Pronouncing it kind of like "diner-MIcity" sounds reasonable to me
  347. # [16:52] <jcranmer> takkaria: fortunately, there's a draft to actually wave it all off and make it UTF-8
  348. # [16:53] <takkaria> jcranmer: oh, really? that means I might get round to writing my webmail app then
  349. # [16:53] <Philip`> GIMPLE is fun
  350. # [16:53] <Philip`> *not entirely
  351. # [16:53] <jcranmer> unfortunately, knowing IETF, it will take a year or so before it actually becomes an RFC
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  362. # [18:16] <zcorpan_> is there a way to get larger extracts from google alerts?
  363. # [18:25] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
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  369. # [18:53] <virtuelv> *sigh* twitterspamfollowers seriously all need to go die in a fire
  370. # [18:53] <virtuelv> pronto
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  373. # [19:13] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  374. # [19:19] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  375. # [19:33] <Hixie> i just realised that the svgwg's proposal has a giant hole
  376. # [19:33] <Hixie> it specifies that the parser should bail as soon as a well-formedness error is hit
  377. # [19:33] <Hixie> but nothing defines where that error is
  378. # [19:33] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  379. # [19:35] <Philip`> That sounds easy - just define it as the earliest point such that no well-formed XML document could begin with the characters up to that point
  380. # [19:36] <Hixie> yeah, that could work
  381. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: That'd require the entire document to be well-formed XML, thoguh
  382. # [19:36] <gsnedders> *though
  383. # [19:37] <Hixie> nah, you know when the xml stream starts
  384. # [19:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: just define it as the earliest point such that no well-formed XML document could begin with the characters from the start of the magic XML-triggering element up to that point
  385. # [19:38] <gsnedders> That's different :P
  386. # [19:38] <Philip`> Only if you're unnecessarily pedantic and ignore what I meant :-p
  387. # [19:39] <gsnedders> That'd be me :P
  388. # [19:39] * Philip` plays with floating point stuff, and discovers the 'nextafter' function, which is exciting since he never knew such a thing existed
  389. # [19:40] <Hixie> neat
  390. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: in what?
  391. # [19:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: C
  392. # [19:40] <gsnedders> eww.
  393. # [19:40] * gsnedders runs
  394. # [19:40] <gsnedders> No, I should actually do something about learning C
  395. # [19:41] <Philip`> (I'm actually playing with floating point stuff in JS, so I've added a native function to expose nextafter to my scripts)
  396. # [19:42] <Philip`> (It's slightly annoying that e.g. Math.cos(DBL_MAX) == 0.905781 or 1.79769e+308 depending on compiler optimisations)
  397. # [19:43] <gsnedders> DBL_MAX?
  398. # [19:43] <Philip`> Oh, that's a C thing too
  399. # [19:43] <Hixie> does anyone know of any UAs that handle rel=alternate other than for feed autodetection and stylesheet declarations?
  400. # [19:43] <Philip`> It's just the maximum finite double
  401. # [19:47] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-23a879b518829ab8) (Success)
  402. # [19:59] <smedero> Hixie: rel=alternate for Opera Widgets: http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2006/07/widget-autodiscovery
  403. # [19:59] <smedero> not sure if that's still valid or not.
  404. # [19:59] <smedero> (as in, whether Opera 9.5 supports it...)
  405. # [20:00] <Hixie> cool thanks
  406. # [20:02] <smedero> Also, didn't IE implement something like uh <link rel="alternate" media="print" href="print-version.html">
  407. # [20:02] <Hixie> did they?
  408. # [20:02] <smedero> I'm vaguely remembering some half-baked feature... sadly I'm not seeing anything official in msdn land...
  409. # [20:03] <Hixie> no worries
  410. # [20:04] <smedero> This page suggest IE4 supported something like that: http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex9/printstyle.htm
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  413. # [20:37] <virtuelv> smedero: still valid, supported, and I think there's a note in one of the widget specs as well
  414. # [20:37] <takkaria> Philip`: sam ruby is doing a Decimal class, I believe, to help with that kind of thing
  415. # [20:38] <virtuelv> no, we changed that to rel="widget" http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#appendix
  416. # [20:42] <Philip`> takkaria: Unfortunately I need to guarantee that any arbitrary script will always give precisely the same result, so I need normal JS Numbers to work
  417. # [20:43] <Philip`> (I need to guarantee some C++ code always gives precisely the same result too, but that's easier since it can just be rewritten with fixed-point maths)
  418. # [20:43] * Quits: richardigel (n=chatzill@217.17.201.99) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  419. # [20:43] <takkaria> Philip`: fair enough, just thought I'd mention it
  420. # [20:44] <Philip`> The most obvious problem I've seen is that (-0) % 1 == either 0 or -0 depending on compiler optimisations
  421. # [20:45] <Philip`> Also Math.pow(-1, 1e36) is NaN in GCC but 0 in MSVC
  422. # [20:46] * gsnedders attempts to validate http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html
  423. # [20:46] <Philip`> and a load of functions give different answers in the 16th decimal place
  424. # [20:53] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  425. # [20:59] <Hixie> gsnedders: i just mistook your version for the whatwg.org copy, so that's a good sign :-)
  426. # [20:59] <gsnedders> :)
  427. # [21:00] <gsnedders> It's creating duplicate IDs, which isn't.
  428. # [21:00] <Hixie> search for "(meaning that a regular </a> end tag"
  429. # [21:01] <Hixie> why is that linked?
  430. # [21:01] * gsnedders wonders how that isn't linked in the original
  431. # [21:02] <gsnedders> hmm.
  432. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Stripping non-alphanumberic/space characters in the term, is the answer
  433. # [21:02] <Hixie> oh this is with w3c-compat enabled?
  434. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Yeah
  435. # [21:02] <Hixie> ah
  436. # [21:02] <gsnedders> But that behaviour still isn't w3c-compat
  437. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Hmm.
  438. # [21:03] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179088148.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  439. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Why on earth am I creating duplicate IDs?
  440. # [21:10] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3a8eb0e5f29cf178)
  441. # [21:12] <gsnedders> Huh.
  442. # [21:12] <gsnedders> This makes absolutely no sense.
  443. # [21:13] <Hixie> what are some of the duplicates?
  444. # [21:13] <Hixie> maybe i have "foo-bar" and "foo bar" as two different title attributes and you turn them both into "foo-bar"?
  445. # [21:13] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  446. # [21:14] <gsnedders> That shouldn't be an issue.
  447. # [21:16] <Hixie> it strikes me that http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#UIstates doesn't actually define what :enabled and :disabled actually match
  448. # [21:18] <gsnedders> 'HtmlElement' object has no attribute 'getroot'
  449. # [21:18] * gsnedders stabs lxml, again
  450. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Oh, I see.
  451. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Element.getroottree().getroot()
  452. # [21:28] * gsnedders fixes that bug
  453. # [21:31] <gsnedders> OK, the only validation errors now are either Hixie's fault or just me not making the ID valid per HTML 4.01
  454. # [21:31] <gsnedders> The former by definition are somebody else's problem, and the latter I better fix.
  455. # [21:31] <Hixie> i run the html5 validator every time i check in
  456. # [21:31] <Hixie> and right now the only error is the doctype
  457. # [21:31] <Hixie> as far as i know
  458. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: As HTML 5?
  459. # [21:32] <Hixie> yes
  460. # [21:32] <gsnedders> That makes a difference :)
  461. # [21:32] * Hixie just fixed the whatwg version's doctype to be html5 too :-P
  462. # [21:32] <Hixie> (not checked in yet)
  463. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Then I don't have it, seeming I just work from SVN :P
  464. # [21:32] <Hixie> :-)
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  466. # [21:33] <gsnedders> The only errors are <script> missing @type, and a table having no tbody (for lack of <!--CHARACTER-REFERENCES-->)
  467. # [21:34] <Hixie> ah ok good
  468. # [21:34] <gsnedders> And then what I've broken :)
  469. # [21:34] <gsnedders> HTML 5 allows everything except spaces in @id, right?
  470. # [21:35] * Hixie looks
  471. # [21:35] * gsnedders is just checking he isn't being really dumb
  472. # [21:35] <Hixie> The value must be unique in the subtree within which the element finds itself and must contain at least one character. The value must not contain any space characters.
  473. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Yeah, I have that in front of me.
  474. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Not in the WHATWG or W3C copy, though :)
  475. # [21:35] <Hixie> hm?
  476. # [21:35] <gsnedders> my copy :P
  477. # [21:35] <Hixie> aah
  478. # [21:36] <Hixie> my brain doesn't work so early in the morning
  479. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: But it isn't even morning in SF. :P
  480. # [21:37] <gsnedders> (I use SVN because then I can just change whatwg-header once to use absolute URLs, and then SVN takes care when updating it)
  481. # [21:37] * gsnedders wonders
  482. # [21:37] <gsnedders> Do I default to HTML 5 @id, or HTML 4.01 @id?
  483. # [21:38] <Hixie> what characters are you outputting that aren't valid in html4?
  484. # [21:38] <Hixie> also why is my web server under such high load suddenly
  485. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: 'ID and NAME tokens must begin with a letter ([A-Za-z]) and may be followed by any number of letters, digits ([0-9]), hyphens ("-"), underscores ("_"), colons (":"), and periods (".").'
  486. # [21:40] <gsnedders> And I just follow HTML 5 currently
  487. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not me
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  489. # [21:41] <Hixie> w3c is being slow too -- 49 seconds to gen the spec!
  490. # [21:41] <Hixie> normally it's like 10
  491. # [21:42] <gsnedders> I can do it in a few seconds here in w3c-compat, in around 4s when not
  492. # [21:42] <Hixie> still slow, but much faster than w3c :-)
  493. # [21:42] <gsnedders> There again, I'm not reliant on anybody else's computer :)
  494. # [21:42] <Hixie> ok shouldn't be any conformance errors now
  495. # [21:43] * gsnedders runs `make upload -j 10`
  496. # [21:43] <Hixie> ok i'm going to eat lunch. back later.
  497. # [21:43] <gsnedders> (10 is just an arbitrary number, as it only ever does 3/4 things at once)
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  504. # [21:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: Only three quarters of a thing?
  505. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: three or four
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  507. # [22:03] <Philip`> You could run "make -j" instead of "make -j 10", to make it do as many things as possible
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  510. # [22:15] <gsnedders> spec-gen 1.0a2 available today!111!!!eleventy!
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  527. # Session Close: Tue Jul 22 00:00:00 2008

The end :)