/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:24] <Philip`> hdh: Oh, nice, that sounds like what I was looking for
  10. # [00:25] <Philip`> I guess I didn't see it because it didn't exist when I looked :-)
  11. # [00:25] <Philip`> although it looks like it doesn't yet exist in a downloadable form :-(
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  15. # [00:27] <roc> Philip`: what exactly do you need?
  16. # [00:30] <Philip`> roc: Something to render the in-game GUI of a 3D OpenGL RTS game
  17. # [00:30] * tusho is now known as universe
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  20. # [00:31] <Philip`> (and to handle scripted interaction, respond to user input, etc)
  21. # [00:32] <Philip`> (and to work on Windows/Linux/OSX, and to be open source but not GPL, etc)
  22. # [00:32] <Philip`> (Also the scripting has to be JavaScript, to be consistent with the rest of the game's scripts)
  23. # [00:33] <Philip`> (I don't need to base it on HTML, but it'd seem kind of nice if I could)
  24. # [00:34] <roc> for some reason I thought you worked on Opera
  25. # [00:34] <roc> Alp's thing does sound like what you want
  26. # [00:35] <Philip`> All I do with Opera is use it and find bugs in it :-)
  27. # [00:36] <Philip`> and then usually complain about the bugs, because I've got nothing better to complain about
  28. # [00:37] <wilhelm> Much appreciated. (c;
  29. # [00:38] <roc> looks OK to me
  30. # [00:38] <roc> sorry wrong channel
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  38. # [00:51] <virtuelv> hm
  39. # [00:51] <virtuelv> http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2008/07/the-death-of-go.html
  40. # [00:53] <roc> we can only hope
  41. # [00:54] <Philip`> Hmm, the URL made me think someone had patented Go and was going to prevent anyone from playing it
  42. # [00:55] <jcranmer> woah, the PTO is proposing making software patents unpatentable?
  43. # [00:56] <roc> no
  44. # [00:56] <jcranmer> 530 comments on /. in 7.5 hrs
  45. # [00:56] <jcranmer> roc: ?
  46. # [00:56] <roc> the PTO is still saying that software is patentable, but this person is saying recent PTO rules are incompatible with that
  47. # [00:56] <roc> note that the blogger there is a very pro-software-patents person
  48. # [00:57] <jcranmer> "the PTO Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences has now supplied an answer to that question: A general purpose computer is not a particular machine, and thus innovative software processes are unpatentable if they are tied only to a general purpose computer."
  49. # [00:57] <jcranmer> roc: I noted that
  50. # [00:57] <roc> it's written not to make nerds happy but to make patent attourneys unhappy
  51. # [00:57] <jcranmer> it's made nerds happy, though
  52. # [00:58] <roc> my brother says that his analysis is reasonable but that nothing will change in practice until courts have to rule on the issues, and that will override the PTO's decisions anyway
  53. # [00:58] <roc> (my brother is a patent attourney)
  54. # [00:58] <jcranmer> well, I am against software patents on the basis that mathematical algorithms should not be patented and software is essentially a mathematical algorithm
  55. # [00:59] <jcranmer> cf. LZW
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  57. # [01:01] <zcorpan> jcranmer: why shouldn't mathematical algorithms be patented?
  58. # [01:01] <jcranmer> zcorpan: why should they be?
  59. # [01:01] <jcranmer> besides, mathematical algorithms are expressly unpatentable under US patent law
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  61. # [01:02] <zcorpan> jcranmer: dunno, a lot of things are patented and i don't know why they should be
  62. # [01:02] <zcorpan> jcranmer: ok
  63. # [01:03] <Hixie> software patents would be ok if it wasn't for two things, one, their insane lifetime in an industry that moves as fast as IT, and two, patent troll companies that aren't actually using the patents, just preventing other people from using them
  64. # [01:03] <jcranmer> well, the basic idea IMHO is that software is better protected by copyright
  65. # [01:03] <Hixie> i'd feel much better about patents if the people suing were actually using patents for what they're intended, making money on the basis of a temporary monopoly
  66. # [01:04] <jcranmer> if I had to write patent law over again, I would include a stipulation that if the company actually isn't provably acting on its patent, its patent becomes invalid
  67. # [01:04] <Hixie> right
  68. # [01:05] <Hixie> patents shouldn't be licensable either, inventing something and then making money by making other people pay you if they come up with the same idea is just not the point of the invention
  69. # [01:05] <jcranmer> but even the patentability of sofware is questionable, IMO
  70. # [01:05] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  71. # [01:05] <jcranmer> Hixie: I disagree about the licensability
  72. # [01:06] <jcranmer> if I come up with a process to (hypothetically speaking, of course) turn water into oil, but I don't have the resources to actually make the machine that does that
  73. # [01:07] <jcranmer> I should be able to ask other companies if they would like to use the technology themselves for a fee
  74. # [01:07] <Hixie> if you came up with a process to turn water into oil, finding vc funding would be the LAST of your problems
  75. # [01:07] <Hixie> you'd be turning DOWN vc funding
  76. # [01:07] <gavin_> heh
  77. # [01:07] <jcranmer> bad example then
  78. # [01:07] <Hixie> :-)
  79. # [01:07] <jcranmer> but you get the gist
  80. # [01:07] <Hixie> if you came up with an algorithm to compress moving pictures slightly better
  81. # [01:07] <roc> there's another thing, which is that in software we've got this great possibility for people can create products and give them away for zero marginal cost, and patents can destroy that
  82. # [01:08] <Hixie> should you be able to hold the entire industry hostage when others independently come up with the same idea?
  83. # [01:08] <jcranmer> well, compressing movie pictures shouldn't be patentable
  84. # [01:08] <Hixie> anyway
  85. # [01:08] <jcranmer> since you're essentially taking one number and making it another number
  86. # [01:08] <gsnedders> patents suck, kthxbai
  87. # [01:09] <roc> Stephen Wolfram would argue that everything that happens in the universe boils down to that too
  88. # [01:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: did you change anything to the live forums.whatwg.org?
  89. # [01:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: upgraded to 3.0 and added the text confirmation thing
  90. # [01:09] <gsnedders> roc: More dangerously, so would I :)
  91. # [01:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: did i break something?
  92. # [01:10] <gsnedders> (dangerously insofar as that I'm hre)
  93. # [01:10] <gsnedders> *here
  94. # [01:10] <jcranmer> well, there's one potential ramification if everything flies
  95. # [01:11] <jcranmer> no one can have any qualms about MP3 being patent-protected :-)
  96. # [01:11] <roc> it would solve a ton of problems
  97. # [01:11] <roc> it would greatly simplify the issue of choosing standard codecs for <video> and <audio>
  98. # [01:12] * roc brings the thread back on topic
  99. # [01:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: doesn't look like 3.0 and the admin panel says it's 2.0.22 like before
  100. # [01:12] <jcranmer> yep
  101. # [01:12] <roc> but I'm not holding my breath, to be honest. too good to be true
  102. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Hixie, zcorpan: Yeah, that's certainly 2.0: even 3.0's subSilver looks different
  103. # [01:12] <jcranmer> roc: all we have to do is hope that the justices are sufficiently computer-literate to understand why software patents are bad
  104. # [01:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: got a PM from BearState saying that he got promted for his password when posting, so it looks like someone has messed up our phpbb
  105. # [01:13] <roc> that's actually the best hope --- the current US Supreme Court is very skeptical about patents
  106. # [01:14] <roc> putting Roberts in charge is the best thing the Bush administration ever did
  107. # [01:14] <roc> which isn't saying much
  108. # [01:14] <jcranmer> well, my day is made if
  109. # [01:14] <jcranmer> a) Supreme Court goes back to the Betamax decision
  110. # [01:14] <jcranmer> b) Diamond v. Diehr is overturned
  111. # [01:17] <jcranmer> sorry, not necessarily Diehr's decision, but the State Street decision
  112. # [01:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think i'll edit the permissions so people can't post at all for now
  113. # [01:22] <Hixie> odd that it would not be 3.0
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  115. # [01:41] * Philip` sees http://openwebfoundation.org/
  116. # [01:43] <jruderman> that page's copyright is apparently owned by the year 2008
  117. # [01:45] <jruderman> i like that. i think i'm going to assign my next copyright to whitespace (not any particular whitespace, but the general concept of whitespace).
  118. # [01:45] <Philip`> The W in their logo font is a bit ugly
  119. # [01:45] <jruderman> eww. yes, it is.
  120. # [01:46] <gavin_> I like it
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  127. # [02:28] <kangax> Why does shape produced by strokeRect has some kind of an implicit min-width?
  128. # [02:28] <kangax> strokeRect(1,1,1,100); // => draws a rectangle that is ~5px wide
  129. # [02:32] <Philip`> kangax: It might be caused by drawing lines along the edges between pixels, so the pixels on both sides of that edge get painted
  130. # [02:33] <Philip`> strokeRect(1.5, 1.5, 1, 100) should draw a sharper rectangle, because then it's drawing its lines through a single row/column of pixels instead of between the rows/columns
  131. # [02:34] <kangax> actually, I think I got it - second/third args are width/height, not coordinates of bottom right corner
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  133. # [02:34] <Philip`> Ah, that might affect it too :-)
  134. # [02:34] <kangax> : ) thanks
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  138. # [03:11] <Hixie> zcorpan: patched
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  148. # [04:32] <heycam> "The term activation behavior is used as defined in the DOM3 Events specification. At the time of writing, DOM3 Events hadn't yet been updated to define that phrase." :)
  149. # [04:37] <Hixie> i think DOM3 Events has changed editors at least once since i came to an agreement with the editor of dom3 events to define that
  150. # [04:39] <heycam> aha
  151. # [04:40] <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-flow-cancelation says "This section is currently being rewritten", though it does mention activation behaviour
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  160. # [06:20] <Mook> anybody bored and want to talk xbl2? I just have a relatively simple question...
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  162. # [06:22] <Mook> For an element bound via CSS, does moving the node (via a single appendChild call, for example) involve unbinding it first? (would script properties persist across the move)
  163. # [06:32] <heycam> Mook, i would say that it would involve unbinding
  164. # [06:33] <heycam> because appendChild() will have to remove the element from the document and then reinsert it
  165. # [06:33] <Mook> even though it will end up still bound after the move?
  166. # [06:33] <Mook> right
  167. # [06:33] <heycam> by my reading, yeah
  168. # [06:33] <Mook> :( That'd mean we'll still end up losing state, which kinda sucks
  169. # [06:33] <heycam> it does kinda
  170. # [06:34] <heycam> esp if you're just moving elements around for z-order or something (which probably is more of an issue for svg than html)
  171. # [06:34] <Mook> (can't be worse than moz-xbl, though - in that case, the constructor gets called, but not the destructor, and all <field/>s are reset, but existing random properties are not)
  172. # [06:35] <heycam> that doesn't sound useful
  173. # [06:36] <Mook> it's perfectly useful for introducing bugs into your app :p Hitting this, again, today was what prompted me to look at xbl2 behaviour.
  174. # [06:36] <heycam> heh
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  176. # [06:43] <roc> SVG should just bite the bullet and adopt CSS z-index
  177. # [06:44] <heycam> perhaps
  178. # [06:44] <Mook> well, my use case was tab reordering in a tab strip
  179. # [06:44] <Mook> so unless CSS can magically display a series of DOM nodes in arbitrary order...
  180. # [06:44] <heycam> Mook, but xbl can do that, no? :)
  181. # [06:44] <roc> XUL flexbox CSS can
  182. # [06:45] <roc> I don't think XBL can
  183. # [06:45] * Mook tries to figure out how to make <tabs><tab label="A"/><tab label="B"/><tab label="C"/></tabs> display "C A B"
  184. # [06:46] <Mook> ... and scaling to > 3, of course, so #c{float: left} doesn't help :p
  185. # [06:46] <heycam> couldn't xbl do that with <content> elements?
  186. # [06:48] <heycam> http://www.cs.washington.edu/education/courses/190m/08sp/exams/final/student_art.pdf
  187. # [06:48] <roc> You can't do arbitrary content permutations that way
  188. # [06:48] <heycam> no, not arbitrary
  189. # [06:53] <Mook> setInsertionPoint says "The order of nodes assigned to a content element is always be the same as the relative order of those nodes in the original core DOM" explicitly. So I guess that doesn't help.
  190. # [06:55] <roc> no
  191. # [06:55] <roc> it does help
  192. # [06:55] <roc> because you can use multiple insertion points
  193. # [06:55] <Mook> hmm, I wonder if I'd be able to dynamically create insertion points
  194. # [06:56] <Mook> and if I do, I wonder if they'll end up applying to all instances of the binding. reading time.
  195. # [07:03] <Mook> okay, so the shadow tree is cloned from the shadow tree template (sec 4), and can be manipulated (4.6). so yay.
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  206. # [08:33] <Hixie> this test shows that IE uses compatibility case folding for usemap:
  207. # [08:33] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cmap%20name%3D%22T%26eacute%3B%26%23x01F1%3B%26%23x2075%3B%22%3E%3Carea%20href%3D%22%2F%22%20shape%3Drect%20coords%3D0%2C0%2C200%2C200%3E%3C%2Fmap%3E%0A%3Cimg%20usemap%3D%22%23t%26Eacute%3BDZ5%22%20src%3Dimage%3E
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  209. # [08:34] <Hixie> but given that, why doesn't it find a match with this test?:
  210. # [08:34] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cmap%20name%3D%22T%26eacute%3B%26%23x01F1%3B%26%23x2075%3B%26%23xFB01%3B%22%3E%3Carea%20href%3D%22%2F%22%20shape%3Drect%20coords%3D0%2C0%2C200%2C200%3E%3C%2Fmap%3E%0A%3Cimg%20usemap%3D%22%23t%26Eacute%3BDZ5F%26%23x0131%3B%26%23x0307%3B%22%20src%3Dimage%3E
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  212. # [08:35] <Hixie> maybe it doesn't know that dotless i + combining dot above is the same as an i?
  213. # [08:35] <Hixie> i wonder how they'd get that kind of bug
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  215. # [08:36] <zcorpan> i'd rather it was ascii case insensitive unless there are pages relying on it
  216. # [08:44] <zcorpan> i've allowed posting on the forums again
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  224. # [09:40] <zcorpan> if somone here wants to be a mod on forums.whatwg.org to help delete spam, let me know
  225. # [09:40] <zcorpan> if someone here anytime spots spam on the forums, also let me know
  226. # [09:41] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  244. # [10:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, there's no need to upgrade to 3.0 at this point, doing so might mean we have to redo some changes
  245. # [10:44] <Hixie> good cos i have no idea how to do that :-)
  246. # [10:45] <Lachy> Can someone who understands CSS well, take a look at this test case. As it is now, Firefox passes and Opera and WebKit fail, but I'm told the test is invalid, but I can't figure out why. http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3C!DOCTYPE+html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3Emin-height+of+body+when+child+has+bottom+margin%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0D%0Ahtml+{+background%3A+red%3B+margin%3A+0%3B+padding%3A+0%3B+height%3A+100%25%3B+}%0D%0Abody+{++background%3A+whit
  247. # [10:45] <Lachy> e%3B+margin%3A+0%3B+padding%3A+0%3B+min-height%3A+100%25%3B+}%0D%0Adiv+{+margin-bottom%3A+100px%3B+}%0D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%3EThis+page+should+not+be+able+to+scroll+and+there+should+be+no+red.%3C%2Fdiv%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8
  248. # [10:45] <Lachy> here's a tiny URL for it http://tinyurl.com/5dha3q
  249. # [10:46] <Hixie> the test assumes viewport is > 100px
  250. # [10:46] <Lachy> yes, which is reasonable
  251. # [10:47] <Hixie> otehr than that it seems valid to me...
  252. # [10:47] <Lachy> cool, that's what I thought
  253. # [10:47] <Hixie> who told you it was invalid?
  254. # [10:47] <Lachy> Moose did
  255. # [10:48] <Hixie> ah
  256. # [10:48] <Hixie> ask him for chapter and verse
  257. # [10:48] <Hixie> generally speaking though in my experience moose's understanding of the css specs is often at odds with my own
  258. # [10:48] <Hixie> (even in cases where i wrote the relevant parts of css)
  259. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> Moose is bigger than Lachy, maybe Lachy's afraid
  260. # [10:49] <Hixie> if you want me to comment on a bug, let me know the # :-)
  261. # [10:49] <Lachy> I pointed him to the exact part of the specification that backs me up. I'm waiting for him to respond to the bug report again
  262. # [10:49] <Lachy> Hixie, do you still have access to Opera's bug tracker?
  263. # [10:49] <Hixie> i have a bts account, yes
  264. # [10:49] <Hixie> (and am under nda with opera)
  265. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you need to grow a beard so that you can be more intimidating.. a beer gut helps too
  266. # [10:50] <Lachy> MikeSmith, no chance of me growing a beard. A friend of my tried to get me to grow one for a week. I couldn't last more than 3 days without shaving.
  267. # [10:51] <Philip`> You could grow one in a flower pot, then put it on for special occasions
  268. # [10:51] <Lachy> LOL
  269. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> OK, you can buy one from a makeup show and wear that. But it needs to be a big-ass, Grizzly Adams /Old Testament prophet kind of beard -- especially in Norway
  270. # [10:52] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  271. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> beard cred
  272. # [10:55] <Lachy> MikeSmith, did you have a beard while you were in Oslo?
  273. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, but more a boozer beard -- Yasser Arafat type of beard
  274. # [11:01] <virtuelv> Lachy: go ask moose why
  275. # [11:02] <virtuelv> (re test case)
  276. # [11:02] <Lachy> virtuelv, yeah, he wasn't in his office when I checked earlier
  277. # [11:03] <virtuelv> ah, that's right, he's off for the weekend
  278. # [11:10] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.129.20)
  279. # [11:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: should noscript be display:none!important in the ua style sheet when scripting is enabled?
  280. # [11:12] <Hixie> not !important
  281. # [11:12] <Hixie> imho
  282. # [11:25] <Lachy> I can't figure out why this is giving an internal server error now. The code used to work on my old web host. http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard - source code here: http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard-source
  283. # [11:27] <Hixie> what's the error?
  284. # [11:31] * Hixie removes about 40 XXXs from the spec
  285. # [11:31] <Hixie> aw man, that's hardly even a dent in the line
  286. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Lachy: that script seems to work OK if I run it from command line
  287. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> i.e., with CONTENT_TYPE=text/html REQUEST_METHOD=POST python clipboard-source
  288. # [11:33] <Lachy> Hixie, other than an Internal Server Error of some kind, I have no idea. I just know it's being caused by when I try to send a 204 No Content response
  289. # [11:33] <Hixie> no message in the logs?
  290. # [11:33] <Hixie> apache's error.log in particular?
  291. # [11:33] <Lachy> where would I find the error log?
  292. # [11:34] <Lachy> [Fri Jul 25 11:26:49 2008] [error] [client ::1] Premature end of script headers: clipboard.py
  293. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> /var/log/apache2/error.log
  294. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> maybe
  295. # [11:35] <Lachy> found it in /Applications/MAMP/logs/apache_error_log
  296. # [11:36] <Lachy> on my localhost server
  297. # [11:36] <Hixie> try outputting an extra blank line
  298. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> it's not sending any Content-Type header.. should it be?
  299. # [11:37] <Hixie> not for a 204
  300. # [11:37] <Hixie> but i think it needs a blank line
  301. # [11:37] <hsivonen> eww. compatibility caselessness :-(
  302. # [11:38] <Hixie> yeah i was shocked to see IE do that
  303. # [11:38] <Lachy> changing it to print "Status: 204 No Content\r\n" has no effect
  304. # [11:38] <Hixie> mind you none of the other browsers do so maybe we can change it
  305. # [11:38] <Hixie> Lachy: does python's "print" output a newline automatically? does it still do that if the string ends in a newline?
  306. # [11:39] <Lachy> I don't know
  307. # [11:39] <Lachy> I think it does, but I'll have to check the docs
  308. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> python "print" prints out a newline automatically, I'm purty sure
  309. # [11:40] <Lachy> "A "\n" character is written at the end, unless the print statement ends with a comma. This is the only action if the statement contains just the keyword print."
  310. # [11:41] <Hixie> dunno then
  311. # [11:41] <Hixie> try sending a body
  312. # [11:42] <Lachy> already tried that, had no effect
  313. # [11:42] * Joins: tusho (n=tusho@91.105.96.166)
  314. # [11:43] <Lachy> but if I change it to print 200 OK instead, it works fine. So it just doesn't like sending 204
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  316. # [11:44] <Hixie> weird
  317. # [11:44] * Joins: tusho (n=tusho@91.105.96.166)
  318. # [11:45] <Hixie> heycam: there's no special WebIDL-fu to handle https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214574#c8 yet, right? Is that on your list?
  319. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you tried just:
  320. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> print "Status: 204 No Content"
  321. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> print
  322. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> just and empty "print" I mean
  323. # [11:47] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  324. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> instead of "print .. \r\n"
  325. # [11:48] <Lachy> ah, I found my problem. It was sending 204 properly when I added \r\n, but the browser kept displaying the error message because it had nothing to replace it with.
  326. # [11:49] <Lachy> now it works
  327. # [11:52] <Hixie> hah
  328. # [11:53] <Hixie> that's funny
  329. # [11:57] <Hixie> ok bed time
  330. # [11:57] <Hixie> nn
  331. # [12:04] * Joins: hasather (n=davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  332. # [12:18] * Joins: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  333. # [12:19] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-91-95.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  334. # [12:28] <hsivonen> It seems that machine translation isn't quite there yet. http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.g.hatena.ne.jp%2Fvantguarde%2F20080707%2F1215437094
  335. # [12:30] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ee964f18992ef85f)
  336. # [12:32] <Philip`> Babel Fish doesn't seem any better
  337. # [12:32] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  338. # [12:44] * hsivonen wonders how many bytes would be saved daily in bandwidth if WP didn't have the silly profile attribute...
  339. # [12:45] <hsivonen> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/6918
  340. # [12:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is that basically saying "switch to html5"?
  341. # [12:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it could also be saying: "create an XHTML 1.0 plus ARIA validatation target"
  342. # [12:49] <zcorpan> i don't want another XHTML PFI :(
  343. # [12:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: one cannot be coined without triggering the standards mode
  344. # [12:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: however, the W3C validator could trigger on the system id and keep an existing public id
  345. # [12:50] <hsivonen> which would be totally wrong in theory, of course
  346. # [12:51] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  347. # [12:51] <tommorris> the profile attribute isn't silly. it is actually useful, if used correctly.
  348. # [12:51] <hsivonen> tommorris: what is it useful for?
  349. # [12:52] <tommorris> GRDDL
  350. # [12:52] <hsivonen> tommorris: in a loosely coupled distributed environment, it totally sucks if the publisher needs to cooperate in order to make a specific scraping solution work
  351. # [12:53] <tommorris> that's not how it's designed.
  352. # [12:55] <tommorris> I still don't see why it has been removed from HTML 5. Nobody is asking the editors to like GRDDL. Just not break it.
  353. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: vantguarde is the same as myakura
  354. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> so you can ask him to translate it for you :)
  355. # [12:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was unaware.
  356. # [12:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nah. translation is too much trouble.
  357. # [13:04] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@e179217036.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  358. # [13:12] <hsivonen> tommorris: I think it is about a duty to protect Web authors against the trouble of dealing with requests to add profile on their pages. or something like that.
  359. # [13:12] <tommorris> srsly, how often does *that* happen
  360. # [13:13] <tommorris> I guess, you are also protecting the authors who want to use it from the same fate
  361. # [13:16] <hsivonen> I don't know. Way back in 2000 I ended up wasting my time on putting Dublin Core metadata on my pages.
  362. # [13:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I fixed the http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref crash. thanks
  363. # [13:18] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net) ("http://scripteka.com - all prototype extensions at your fingertips")
  364. # [13:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool
  365. # [13:18] <hsivonen> the highligting in errors 5 and 6 in unintuitive now...
  366. # [13:19] <hsivonen> (caused by tag inference)
  367. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: you could avoid errors 1-4 by putting a space before the combining char
  368. # [13:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, ok, I'll do that now
  369. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems theoretically impure to have entities that expand to non-NFC (OHM SIGN and ANGSTROM SIGN)
  370. # [13:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Since when did we care about theoretical pureness? We're a long way from it already.
  371. # [13:22] * hsivonen is inclined to think OHM SIGN and ANGSTROM SIGN should never have gotten their own code points
  372. # [13:23] <hsivonen> (DC metadata in HTML was a waste of time, because it duplicated metadata that HTML and HTTP support natively.)
  373. # [13:24] <Lachy> hsivonen, done.
  374. # [13:24] <zcorpan> gsnedders: at least you should be able to use allowed entities and not get validation errors
  375. # [13:24] <Lachy> what about the last 2 errors?
  376. # [13:24] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179204118.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  377. # [13:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  378. # [13:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think you can't conform to charmod-norm and use OHM SIGN and ANGSTROM SIGN.
  379. # [13:26] <Lachy> really? why?
  380. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: they expand to code points that are prohibited in NFC
  381. # [13:27] <hsivonen> NFC normalizes them to upper case omega and a with ring above
  382. # [13:27] <Lachy> oh, that seems a bit odd
  383. # [13:28] <tommorris> hsivonen: GRDDL+profile is a way to dramatically reduce the need for duplication of metadata...
  384. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: it seems to me it's a bug in Unicode that they tried to mitigate when defining NFC
  385. # [13:28] <Lachy> if that's the case, then should we make them non-conforming?
  386. # [13:29] <hsivonen> tommorris: my point is that you shouldn't need any incantation to tell a scraper that HTML <title> is the title. The scraper should know that in text/html, <title> is the title.
  387. # [13:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: or make the entities expand to the NFC equivalents
  388. # [13:29] <zcorpan> s/hsivonen/Lachy/
  389. # [13:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good point
  390. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: what zcorpan said merits considering
  391. # [13:30] * zcorpan files a bug
  392. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: at some point I had some reason to guess that charmod-norm would become part of HTML5 conformance criteria
  393. # [13:31] <Lachy> so do you mean that #ohm; and &angst; will be expanded to U+03A9 and U+00C5 instead?
  394. # [13:31] <Lachy> making them the same as &omega; and &aring;?
  395. # [13:31] <tommorris> hsivonen: nobody is suggesting that one *needs* that. just that it's quite useful to be able to provide a way for a parser to follow it's nose and find more information about how to parse a document.
  396. # [13:31] <hsivonen> though by the time HTML5 becomes a REC, the installed base of browsers will deal with NFD
  397. # [13:31] <hsivonen> or, rather, stuff that NFC hides
  398. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: &Omega; and &Aring;
  399. # [13:32] <Lachy> right, that's what I meant
  400. # [13:32] <hsivonen> tommorris: the parser can't do that unless someone troubles the page authors
  401. # [13:32] <Lachy> I gave the right codepoints, just capitalised wrongly
  402. # [13:33] <tommorris> hsivonen: I still don't get this point. If they want to put an hCard in, they will be "troubled". If they want to put a <time> in, they'll be "troubled". What's so different about putting in a @profile?
  403. # [13:33] <hsivonen> tommorris: the value it provides compared to an alternative solution
  404. # [13:34] <tommorris> if the aim is to not trouble page authors, just tell them to not put any thing up on the web. or stick to text/plain
  405. # [13:35] <tommorris> so, the alternative solution is <link rel="profile">. only that breaks existing grddl implementations...
  406. # [13:36] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5897
  407. # [13:36] <hsivonen> tommorris: what I see as the alternative solution is the scraper having programmed knowledge about well-known vocabularies and the ability to recognize microformat gestalts
  408. # [13:37] <tommorris> hsivonen: how does that solve the problem of a web author who wants to publish a whole bunch of HTML pages that have a custom set of metadata? Wait, don't tell me: "Go Pareto Principle!"
  409. # [13:38] <hsivonen> tommorris: who's going to consume the custom metadata?
  410. # [13:38] <tommorris> anyone who wants to.
  411. # [13:39] <hsivonen> tommorris: how does the agreement on meaning form between the loosely coupled parties? how is one person's homegrown metadata vocabulary interesting enough for someone to write software for it?
  412. # [13:40] <tommorris> well, you know, all the usual ways stuff like that happens.
  413. # [13:41] <tommorris> we can't expect everyone to do that on whatwg.org or microformats.org
  414. # [13:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: "+ string or a value that is a, <span>ASCII case-insensitive</span>" s/a,/an/
  415. # [13:42] <hsivonen> tommorris: even if a microformat-like format isn't tantek-approved, the non-loose parties can agree on meaning
  416. # [13:43] <tommorris> eg. a bunch of geneticists are working on ways of marking that, say, a web document refers to specific genes. part of the way they do that is to start publishing documents, and GRDDL provides an easy way for them to map that to existing RDF and XML-based metadata formats
  417. # [13:44] <hsivonen> tommorris: what I don't understand is this: if you are out to scrape a genetic microformat with GRDDL, why wouldn't you make the scraper default to that GRDDL transformation so that you can catch cases where the profile is missing
  418. # [13:45] <tommorris> yes, but the idea is that authors should be able to declare the microformats (etc.) that they use.
  419. # [13:46] <hsivonen> I guess I just don't see the value in declaring them, because consumers are better off trying to look for the gestalt instead of failing when the declaration is missing
  420. # [13:47] <tommorris> I can think of certain instances where one should not do that
  421. # [13:47] <tommorris> the "not-hCard" scenarios are an academic example of that.
  422. # [13:50] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  423. # [13:50] <hsivonen> tommorris: I think academic examples aren't interesting. Real coincidences are.
  424. # [13:53] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  425. # [13:53] <tommorris> well, the thing is that the argument you are making is against GRDDL. but all that will happen is that if @profile isn't in HTML 5, we'll probably have to just change the GRDDL spec so that parsers look in both @profile and link[@rel='profile'], and change the various parsers so they do that.
  426. # [13:56] <tommorris> either way people will want to use it (not many people, but that doesn't matter to anyone who is not a Pareto fundamentalist), and they'll find a way. it just seems silly not to have it in the spec.
  427. # [14:00] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  428. # [14:02] <zcorpan> tommorris: i don't know anything about grddl but would it hurt to ignore profile and just assume it's there?
  429. # [14:03] <tommorris> zcorpan: what do you mean? when writing HTML 5 documents, just include @profile?
  430. # [14:03] <tommorris> that's what DanC is doing, btw
  431. # [14:03] <tommorris> view source on http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ ;)
  432. # [14:04] <zcorpan> tommorris: i mean, when doing grddl processing, don't look for profile but act as if it was there
  433. # [14:04] <hsivonen> tommorris: when you are extracting genetic data, behaving as if every page had a profile for the genetic data GRDDL transformation
  434. # [14:04] <hsivonen> tommorris: and when looking for contact info, behaving as if every page had an hCard profile
  435. # [14:05] <tommorris> well, yes, but that doesn't solve the problem
  436. # [14:05] <tommorris> that still means that for every use case you have to write a new parser.
  437. # [14:06] <hsivonen> tommorris: no, you don't need to write a new parser, you just need to give a GRDDL transformation appropriate for the use case as an input argument
  438. # [14:07] <tommorris> again, yes, you can do that - and many implementations will do that - but it doesn't solve the problem
  439. # [14:08] <hsivonen> tommorris: what's "the problem"?
  440. # [14:08] <tommorris> the problem is that authors should be able to declare in a machine-readable way the data schemas they are using, rather than having to insert magic into every parser
  441. # [14:09] <hsivonen> that doesn't look like a problem statement. It looks like a solution statement.
  442. # [14:09] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  443. # [14:09] <gsnedders> tommorris: In the case of things like µf, parsers already have to behave as if there is a @profile there even when it is missing, because it isn't there so often
  444. # [14:10] <gsnedders> tommorris: They're going to have to have this to be compatible with the real world regardless of whether @profile exists in HTML 5.
  445. # [14:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-48-255.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  446. # [14:10] <tommorris> Yes, but that's discretionary.
  447. # [14:10] * Joins: julianreschke (n=chatzill@mail.greenbytes.de)
  448. # [14:11] <gsnedders> tommorris: Only really discretionary insofar as an option of: a) be compatible with real websites; b) be theoretically correct
  449. # [14:12] <tommorris> The problem with this is that it presumes that there is a universal microformat mapping.
  450. # [14:12] <hsivonen> tommorris: not universal. just one that your next processing step expects
  451. # [14:13] <hsivonen> tommorris: if you are scraping for hCard data, surely you need something that groks hCard/vCard-like data as a further step
  452. # [14:13] <hsivonen> assuming that the process *does* something with the data after scraping it
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  456. # [15:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: That sounds like a violation of layering - just like how your HTTP processor shouldn't have to care whether you're expecting HTML or CSS or PNG data, your RDF/GRDDL/something processor shouldn't have to care whether you're expecting hCard or hCal or XFN data
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  459. # [15:30] <Lachy> I've fixed all known bugs with http://html5.lachy.id.au/ - Now the clipboard, validation feature and html5lib viewer features work properly
  460. # [15:30] <Lachy> also added a default template to the text box
  461. # [15:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: actually the svg wg's proposal is pretty much based on my suggestions as well :) not that i personally like the svg wg's proposal though
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  464. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: when you load a PNG image over HTTP, the image doesn't come with a URI pointing to a PNG decoder
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  470. # [16:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: That unfortunately missing feature is impossible in HTTP, since there's no way to write a PNG decoder that's portable and fast and not hundreds of kilobytes, built on a framework that also let you implement decoders for all other useful types of content (JPEG, SVG, HTML, etc)
  471. # [16:29] <Philip`> so we have to live with the disadvantages that come from that, like never using anything other than three bitmap image formats
  472. # [16:30] <Philip`> GRDDL stuff doesn't have that problem, since the associated XSLT files are small and portable, so there's much more possibility of being able to implement something like that
  473. # [16:31] <tommorris> yep, and GRDDL is not-just-RDF: I can imagine some great uses to do Atom, KML and other XML syntaxes
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  477. # [16:59] <zcorpan> the forums now have 11 moderators, i hope that'll scare spammers away
  478. # [17:00] <Philip`> Not when they realise all the moderators are inactive :-)
  479. # [17:00] <zcorpan> we'll see
  480. # [17:00] <zcorpan> at least we haven't got any spam so far!
  481. # [17:08] <zcorpan> hmm, shouldn't <meta ... content="TEXT/HTML; CHARSET=UTF-8"> be allowed? (with uppercase "charset")
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  491. # [18:34] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/raw-file/tip/README.html
  492. # [18:35] <Philip`> s/enviroments/environments/
  493. # [18:36] <Philip`> When you talk about abbr, etc elements, is that limited to the HTML namespace?
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  497. # [19:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: either in no namespace or the HTML namespace
  498. # [19:21] * weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
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  500. # [19:24] <hsivonen> 3
  501. # [19:24] <gsnedders> 4
  502. # [19:24] <hsivonen> 6Oops
  503. # [19:25] <gsnedders> Hmm…
  504. # [19:25] <gsnedders> It'd be interesting to have the spec-gen implemented in ECMAScript
  505. # [19:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: Is the updated copy clear enough?
  506. # [19:27] * Morphous_ is now known as Amorphous
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  513. # [20:22] <Hixie> tommorris: profile="" isn't in HTML5 because it's a dumb feature, it has nothing to do with my opinion of GRDDL :-)
  514. # [20:22] <Hixie> tommorris: (and it wasn't taken out, we started HTML5 from a blank slate -- I literally wrote every word in the spec from scratch)
  515. # [20:23] <tommorris> Okay. How then can we progress to get an amiable situation? Basically, I want to be able to have HTML 5 with working GRDDL. I don't really mind who changes their spec.
  516. # [20:24] <Hixie> GRDDL should just support the microformats it supports without being prompted to support them
  517. # [20:25] <tommorris> Yes, but there is layering at work here.
  518. # [20:26] <Hixie> layering?
  519. # [20:26] <tommorris> If I'm implementing GRDDL, generally one will make it work as to the spec.
  520. # [20:26] <tommorris> Then you can leave a big option field open so that the user can pop in a list of all the default microformats it wants to look for.
  521. # [20:26] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  522. # [20:27] <Hixie> GRDDL should always look for all microformats it supports, if it requires a flag in the document before looking for a microformat, that's a bug in GRDDL
  523. # [20:27] <hober> Couldn't GRDDL use link@rel="profile" instead of head@profile? RelExtensions lists link@rel="profile"
  524. # [20:27] <Hixie> link rel="profile" is as stupid as head profile=""
  525. # [20:28] <tommorris> Stupid it may be. Ugly it may be. But there are plenty of people - like myself - who have to implement it
  526. # [20:29] <hober> Hixie: indeed, but rel values are less obtrusive than a custom attribute like head@profile. So if they insist, I'd just assume they use @rel="profile" over head@profile.
  527. # [20:29] <tommorris> And if it's just a microformats scraper, that's not the point of GRDDL. It's about letting authors explicitly declare the data inside their page.
  528. # [20:29] <tommorris> I don't really care either way. I just have to write the damn code. ;)
  529. # [20:29] <hober> tommorris: But simply by saying <div class="vcard">, I've already explicitly declared the data on my page...
  530. # [20:30] <tommorris> Yes, unless in outer Mongolia or somewhere, class="vcard" means something different.
  531. # [20:30] <jgraham> The problem is that @profile is a long way in metadata space from the actual data so it's quite likely to be wrong or missing
  532. # [20:30] <jgraham> See also: content-type
  533. # [20:30] <Hixie> tommorris, hober: I have no interest in supporting people who are doing stupid things
  534. # [20:30] <tommorris> Again, my preferred solution is to actually look through the whole document for *[@rel='profile']/@href
  535. # [20:31] <Hixie> tommorris, hober: no offense :-)
  536. # [20:31] <hober> None taken. :) I don't want @profile in HTML.
  537. # [20:31] * Parts: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ee964f18992ef85f)
  538. # [20:31] <Hixie> tommorris: i recommend making your code pretend that all profiles are always declared
  539. # [20:31] <tommorris> But there is an infinite number of profiles. That's the beauty of them. Distributed extensibility.
  540. # [20:32] <Hixie> tommorris: does your GRDDL support all infinite number of them?
  541. # [20:32] <tommorris> Yes, it is a generic implementation at a library language level.
  542. # [20:32] <tommorris> What people choose to do with it is up to them.
  543. # [20:32] <Hixie> wait what?
  544. # [20:33] <Hixie> tell you what why don't you give me a rundown of what your code does
  545. # [20:33] <Hixie> pretend i know nothing about GRDDL
  546. # [20:33] <Hixie> since apparently i might not
  547. # [20:33] <Hixie> :-)
  548. # [20:33] * gsnedders gives Hixie a newbie badge
  549. # [20:33] <tommorris> It takes a URI, it loads the URI, takes a rough stab to see what it is (and makes a decision of either HTML/XHTML or 'generic XML' or 'dunno, I give up')
  550. # [20:34] <tommorris> then if it's XML, it follows the XML parsing rules
  551. # [20:34] <tommorris> if it's HTML/XHTML, it follows the HTML/XHTML parsing rules (basically, runs it through Tidy and loads it in as an XML document)
  552. # [20:35] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8dd5.l.pppool.de)
  553. # [20:35] <tommorris> then it checks to have a look at the @profile attribute, loads each of the URIs listed in the profile attribute and extracts from those URIs the location of an XSLT document
  554. # [20:36] <tommorris> It then runs all the XSLTs found across the document, takes all the outputs and loads them in to an RDF graph and returns a Graph object to the user to do with as they like
  555. # [20:36] <Hixie> ok so there are two problems with that
  556. # [20:36] <Hixie> one is that your output is RDF, so in practice it really doesn't matter what you do :-)
  557. # [20:36] <Hixie> the other is that the target of the profile="" attribute typically doesn't include a link to an XSLT sheet
  558. # [20:37] <Hixie> and it's unlikely that most authors of microformats will include the link to a page that mentions XSLT
  559. # [20:37] <Hixie> (indeed it's unlikely that they'll include any profile links at all)
  560. # [20:37] <Hixie> a better mechanism would be for the user of the GRDDL mechanism to provide all the XSLTs himself
  561. # [20:37] <Hixie> instead of relying on the page's author getting the link right
  562. # [20:38] <tommorris> Most existing GRDDL implementations have a method you can call which allows you to specify some existing XSLTs (or shortcuts thereto)
  563. # [20:39] <Hixie> problem solved then, no need for a profile="" mechanism
  564. # [20:39] <tommorris> Not at all.
  565. # [20:40] <tommorris> That not many people use it properly is not an argument for not letting those who do use it be able to.
  566. # [20:40] <Hixie> actually, for html5, it is
  567. # [20:41] <tommorris> I don't exactly see why.
  568. # [20:41] <Hixie> if most people do something wrong, then we assume the spec is stupid, and fix it.
  569. # [20:41] <Hixie> but anyway here the point is that the grddl user isn't the web page author, presumably, because if he was, then he wouldn't need to have the indirection through the page to declare the profiles
  570. # [20:42] <Hixie> and if it's not the same author, then using profile="" is going to be unreliable by definition
  571. # [20:42] <tommorris> Ah, but often he does because he doesn't want to repeat himself
  572. # [20:42] <Hixie> the use case you are putting forward is fundamentally non-sensical
  573. # [20:42] <Hixie> there no reason to repeat oneself -- only say it once, to the grddl, instead of once in every page (which would be repetition indeed!)
  574. # [20:43] <tommorris> If I want to publish some data on the web and have it parseable in an RDFish kind of way, I can either put it all up in, say, RDF/XML for computers *and* HTML for people - or I can put it up as HTML, with a little "hey, go here and find out how to parse it" instruction at the top and half the amount of data I have to publish
  575. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: Most people use non-conforming HTML. Can't we fix the spec for that?
  576. # [20:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: we did. we made a massive effort to define how to parse broken html.
  577. # [20:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: and made a number of previously disallowed things allowed.
  578. # [20:44] <Hixie> (where they were harmless)
  579. # [20:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: Then most people will still do something wrong, so we will assume HTML 5 is stupid, and fix it. :P
  580. # [20:44] * gsnedders runs away
  581. # [20:45] <Hixie> tommorris: the rdf spec says how to parse rdf right? the html spec says how to parse html? you don't need to declare how to parse them in the file itself? so why do you do that with microformats?
  582. # [20:46] <Hixie> tommorris: the point though is that most people don't include the "how to parse it" instructions, and so any actual use of the data has to know how to parse it anyway, making the instructions moot
  583. # [20:46] <tommorris> in the more common circumstances.
  584. # [20:46] <tommorris> the point is that in niche circumstances, it is quite useful
  585. # [20:46] <Hixie> html5 isn't targetting niche circumstances
  586. # [20:46] <tommorris> and, yes, I've heard the Pareto principle guff, which is a justification to make it only work 80% of the time. ;)
  587. # [20:46] <Hixie> we are explicitly cutting off at 80%
  588. # [20:47] <Hixie> if we didn't, we'd end up with a disaster like docbook. or rdf.
  589. # [20:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: In May, myself, jgraham, and Philip` ended up concluding we'd get rid of the numbers 0 and 9, as we only need to address 80% of use-cases.
  590. # [20:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: then your study of use cases was likely severely flawed
  591. # [20:48] * gsnedders blames jgraham
  592. # [20:48] <Hixie> since most people don't use octal
  593. # [20:49] <gsnedders> BTW, http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/raw-file/tip/README.html — OMG docs!
  594. # [20:49] <tommorris> again, I'm not asking people to use or like GRDDL - just not break our implementations
  595. # [20:49] <Hixie> i'm not breaking your implementations any more than they are already broken
  596. # [20:49] <Hixie> they rely on something that is fundamentally not going to happen regardless of what the spec says
  597. # [20:49] <Hixie> all i'm doing is showing you reality
  598. # [20:50] <Hixie> pulling your head out of the sand, as it were
  599. # [20:50] <Hixie> sorry for being so blunt
  600. # [20:50] <tommorris> it's not a case of "do we make it go away or not?", it's a case of "do we make it work as it does already or do we make it so we have to rewrite them to treat HTML 5 differently from how they do HTML 4/XHTML 1?"
  601. # [20:51] <Hixie> you're missing the best option, which is "do we make it so we have to rewrite them to actually handle all of HTML5/HTML4/XHTML1 in a way that actually works"
  602. # [20:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: In Introduction, "consquently"
  603. # [20:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: Also the colon seems like inappropriate punctuation there
  604. # [20:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: Stop wanting me to spell things correctly!
  605. # [20:54] <gsnedders> :P
  606. # [20:54] <gsnedders> But thanks.
  607. # [20:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Computers are good at finding such errors :-)
  608. # [20:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: although actually I've never quite worked out how to spell-check sensibly on Linux so I just do it manually :-(
  609. # [20:56] * gsnedders lives on spell checking existing on any and every text-field
  610. # [20:56] <gsnedders> But the problem is it breaks badly on HTML source, so I have to turn it off there :(
  611. # [20:56] * Philip` likes how Visual Assist does spell-checking of C++ code, by looking in strings and comments
  612. # [20:58] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  613. # [21:08] * gsnedders is defining the useful stuff to know that the CSS3 module postprocessor doesn't define
  614. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Which is going to end up with the interesting situation of my docs documenting what I implement in compat. mode better than the original docs do.
  615. # [21:16] <Hixie> oops, apologies about the double post just now
  616. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: What text editor do you use to edit the huge spec.? Do you do the text-wrapping by hand, or by using…?
  617. # [21:20] <Hixie> emacs
  618. # [21:20] <gsnedders> For both?
  619. # [21:20] <hsivonen> looks like emacs isn't deterministic
  620. # [21:20] <hsivonen> sometimes commits rewrap lines for no good reason
  621. # [21:21] <Hixie> i do the line wrapping semi-manually
  622. # [21:21] <Hixie> i have f7 bound to "wrap this paragraph"
  623. # [21:21] <Hixie> so when i do regexp search/replaces, the paragraphs don't get rewrapped unless i explicitly request it
  624. # [21:22] <Hixie> thus what you're seeing
  625. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: See, I'm always scared when documentation is a 3MB HTML file :)
  626. # [21:23] <hsivonen> ok. makes sense
  627. # [21:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: emacs is a terrible text editor. it can do pretty much anything and is horribly hard to use out of the box.
  628. # [21:24] <gsnedders> The problem is there are no good text editors that can do pretty much anything :(
  629. # [21:24] <Hixie> gsnedders: it also happens to handle multimegabyte files fine (though it chokes once they get into the hundreds of mb) and does very good search/replace and a few other things i need.
  630. # [21:24] <hsivonen> has anyone embedded Gecko inside emacs yet?
  631. # [21:24] <Hixie> i use emacs under screen over ssh
  632. # [21:24] <Hixie> so i wouldn't know
  633. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: nano deals with all that fine :P
  634. # [21:24] <hsivonen> Emacs W3 isn't that good for browsing the web
  635. # [21:24] <hsivonen> so there are limits to the kitchen sink
  636. # [21:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i said it could do anything, not that it could do anything well.
  637. # [21:25] <Hixie> gsnedders: nano is ok for little jobs
  638. # [21:25] <Hixie> gsnedders: i couldn't use it to edit the spec tohugh
  639. # [21:25] <Hixie> nano is what i use for config files, etc
  640. # [21:26] <gsnedders> I dunno. Once you set it up right, it's surprisingly powerful.
  641. # [21:26] <Hixie> does it have a shell?
  642. # [21:26] <Hixie> multiple buffers?
  643. # [21:26] <gsnedders> A shell to do what?
  644. # [21:26] <Hixie> a clipboard list?
  645. # [21:26] <gsnedders> Yes
  646. # [21:26] <gsnedders> No
  647. # [21:26] <franksalim> tetris?
  648. # [21:26] <gsnedders> No
  649. # [21:26] <gsnedders> Pong?
  650. # [21:26] <gsnedders> No
  651. # [21:26] <hsivonen> hrm. the multipage sections keep moving
  652. # [21:27] <Hixie> one of the features of emacs i use the most is that you can open a bash shell as a file
  653. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Is Tetris the real reason you use emacs?
  654. # [21:27] <Hixie> you can edit the shell just like a file
  655. # [21:27] <Hixie> but it runs commands when you hit enter
  656. # [21:27] <Hixie> i hate tetris :-)
  657. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Then pong?
  658. # [21:27] <Hixie> nope
  659. # [21:28] <Hixie> I use M-x count-matches and M-x list-matching-lines a lot too
  660. # [21:28] <Hixie> if i had the time i'd write my own editor
  661. # [21:28] <Hixie> now that i know what i want from it
  662. # [21:29] <Hixie> but it wouldn't be useful for anyone else :-)
  663. # [21:29] <Hixie> Should we come up with an alternative to textContent that handles dir="", <bdo>, <img alt="">, etc?
  664. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yes.
  665. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Actually, no.
  666. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: You should.
  667. # [21:30] <gsnedders> :D
  668. # [21:30] <hsivonen> aaargh. the spec splitter no longer spits the tokenization section into a standalone file
  669. # [21:30] <jcranmer> vim works better IHMO, but I'm not going to ignite an editor war
  670. # [21:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: speak to Philip`
  671. # [21:30] <gsnedders> jcranmer: That wasn't humble enough.
  672. # [21:30] <jcranmer> er, IMHO
  673. # [21:30] <Hixie> jcranmer: i think both suck, but i could never get into the "mode" mindset that vi uses
  674. # [21:31] <hsivonen> also, something changed about the structure so that Lynx breaks the lines differently
  675. # [21:31] <hsivonen> making diff useless
  676. # [21:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's Hixie's fault for changing the section names
  677. # [21:32] <Philip`> Hixie: You need to stop modifying the spec, it messes everything up :-(
  678. # [21:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: i moved the tokenisation section so that each state is its own subsection
  679. # [21:33] <Hixie> so it shows up in the ToC
  680. # [21:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: :-(
  681. # [21:33] <Philip`> It was renamed to "tokenization" which broke the splitter
  682. # [21:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a way to recover the spec plitter output for the tokenizer section from immediately before that change?
  683. # [21:34] <Hixie> rerun the spec splitter on that version i guess
  684. # [21:34] <Hixie> i dunno
  685. # [21:34] <Hixie> i just use Philip`'s web service
  686. # [21:34] <hsivonen> are there docs for the service?
  687. # [21:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: There aren't
  688. # [21:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: any guidance on how to use it?
  689. # [21:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: If you have suitable bits of Python and lxml and html5lib installed, you could hopefully just run <some URL which I'll find in a minute since my internet connection is really slow>
  690. # [21:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py
  691. # [21:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. I guess I don't have the deps. I'll have to investigate
  692. # [21:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: It'd be quick to use iter than use findall for things like making refs absolute
  693. # [21:38] <hsivonen> do I need to also run spec gen first to get compatible results?
  694. # [21:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: It takes about a minute to parse the input, so it's already slow enough that minor optimisations will have no practical effect :-)
  695. # [21:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I fixed the two parsetree.v.nu issues
  696. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: IIRC it was a fair difference doing stuff like that
  697. # [21:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: You need to run it on the post-spec-gen "index" file (which should be in SVN)
  698. # [21:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok.
  699. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Or you can help find bugs in my spec-gen :P
  700. # [21:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: If you don't have the relevant dependencies, but you know what revision number you're interested in, I could convert it manually
  701. # [21:41] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  702. # [21:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm interested in rev 1905 and 1906
  703. # [21:42] <Hixie> those changed nothing of substance
  704. # [21:42] <Hixie> for r1906, i did the diff locally using -w
  705. # [21:43] <Hixie> and there was nothing except the <dt>s turning into <h5>s
  706. # [21:43] <Hixie> (and i missed one, which got fixed later)
  707. # [21:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: right, so first I need to diff my baseline against 1905. then I need to make 1906 my baseline and diff it agaist the latest version
  708. # [21:44] <Hixie> ah, makes sense
  709. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Is http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/raw-file/tip/README.html#cross-referencing-0 good enough docs?
  710. # [21:45] <Philip`> (I've updated the online spec-splitter so it should split on "tokenization" correctly now)
  711. # [21:45] <gsnedders> (for that section, for xref)
  712. # [21:47] <Hixie> thanks Philip`
  713. # [21:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: Downloading those revisions now
  714. # [21:49] <Hixie> gsnedders: looks good to me
  715. # [21:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  716. # [21:49] <Hixie> not sure about the white-on-red styling though :-)
  717. # [21:49] <Hixie> or white-on-blue :-)
  718. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: The white-on-red and white-on-blue is all editorial :)
  719. # [21:50] * Hixie sees the make install step and prays it doesn't require him to be root
  720. # [21:51] <gsnedders> (white-on-red is span:not([title=""]):not(.secno) and white-on-blue is a:not([href]))
  721. # [21:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/misc/tokenization-r1905.html http://philip.html5.org/misc/tokenization-r1906.html
  722. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: The only thing that might require perms. is to install the spec-gen application, by default in /usr/local/bin
  723. # [21:52] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  724. # [21:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: "An instance is only used if it does not have a a, dfn, or datagrid element as either a parent or a child." - s/a a/an a/
  725. # [21:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: thank you
  726. # [21:53] <Philip`> gsnedders: s/dependant/dependent/
  727. # [21:53] <Hixie> gsnedders: k, i hope i can install it elsewhere :-)
  728. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: where ever you want :)
  729. # [21:54] <Hixie> :-D
  730. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: (or at least anywhere you have write perms for :P)
  731. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: Is dependent preferred in the OED? dependant is the en-gb norm.
  732. # [21:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8dd5.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  733. # [21:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: If I'm not mistaken, "dependant" is always a noun (like a person who depends on someone), and "dependent" is always the adjective or whatever it is
  734. # [21:59] * gsnedders looks up
  735. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: It's an obsolete spelling of the adjective :P
  736. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: -ant is obs. adj, and en-gb noun; -ent is adj., an en-us noun
  737. # [22:02] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179217036.adsl.alicedsl.de)
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  739. # [22:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, so I'm right, if you ignore obsolete and American usage, and you should ignore them :-)
  740. # [22:05] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  741. # [22:06] <hsivonen> so now Jetty docs say I should be using HTTP and mod_proxy instead of AJP13 and mod_jk starting with Apache 2.2
  742. # [22:07] <hsivonen> stuff keeps changing all the time
  743. # [22:08] <Philip`> The obsolete versions won't keep changing, so you could stick with them
  744. # [22:09] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b5823d7eec0656d0) ("The computer fell asleep")
  745. # [22:09] <hsivonen> at least AJP13 still works even though Jetty docs say it is less performant
  746. # [22:09] <hsivonen> (but the bottle neck is Schematron anyway)
  747. # [22:10] <hsivonen> and I only need standard HTTP methods, so AJP13 doesn't limit me that way
  748. # [22:11] <hsivonen> nn
  749. # [22:20] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-178-219.dsl.telstraclear.net)
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  752. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Hmm.
  753. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Should program options be in a code element?
  754. # [22:38] * gsnedders thinks so
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The end :)