/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-05 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 05 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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4. # [00:06] <Hixie> woah, did sam just say he was ok with the spec?
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6. # [00:11] <Lachy> nice. I like it when people can become happy with the spec, without making any specific changes for them.
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8. # [00:14] <Philip`> He only seems to be okay if you ignore the line where he said "Of course, the usuability of such an approach sucks"
9. # [00:19] <Hixie> well yes
10. # [00:19] <Hixie> but as he says
11. # [00:19] <Hixie> that's the point
12. # [00:20] <Hixie> though to be honest i don't see why it sucks so much, it's basically syntactically equivalent and actually has more features than raw element names (you get to pick your own disambiguation scheme, you can pick multiple names, there is better fallback, etc)
13. # [00:22] <Lachy> Hixie, for the marked issues in the spec, we used to have a JavaScript that inserted "Big Issue: " at the beginning of each one. You could just enable that again
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15. # [00:23] <Lachy> or maybe change it to insert a ** or some other syntax
16. # [00:26] <Lachy> Hixie, http://status.whatwg.org/mark-issues.js
17. # [00:26] <Lachy> it was called as part of this script http://status.whatwg.org/annotate-web-apps.js
18. # [00:26] <Hixie> ah
19. # [00:26] <Philip`> Isn't it easier to write "Big Issue" in the source, rather than having JS that slowly traverses and dynamically updates the whole document at runtime on each client?
20. # [00:27] <Lachy> Philip`, it could probably be done by the spec gen or something
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22. # [00:27] <Hixie> i don't really want the issues to say "big issue" though
23. # [00:28] <Hixie> at least not to sighted users
24. # [00:28] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
25. # [00:31] <Lachy> is there some almost-invisible character that would be noticed by screen readers that could convey the intended meaning?
26. # [00:31] <Philip`> <font color=white>Big Issue:</font>
27. # [00:32] <Lachy> Philip`, stylesheets could hide it
28. # [00:32] <Hixie> wouldn't they hide it from screen readers too?
29. # [00:33] <Philip`> (and then Google will ban you for making content visible to search engines and not to normal users)
30. # [00:33] <Lachy> Hixie, not if you use position: absolute; left: -2000px;
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32. # [00:33] <Hixie> that's such a hack
33. # [00:33] <Hixie> what's the officially right way to do this?
34. # [00:33] <Lachy> for these in the stylesheet: p.note:before { content: 'Note: '; } p.warning:before { content: '\26A0 Warning! '; }, that probably could be inserted directly into the markup instead of using stylesheets too
35. # [00:33] <Hixie> surely the accessibility experts have come up with a solution
36. # [00:34] <Lachy> Hixie, unfortunately, the correct way to do it would have been display: none;, but screen readers decided to ignore such content
37. # [00:34] <Hixie> i'll wait for gsnedders to come back and have him add stuff for those classes
38. # [00:34] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, i know, i was being sarcastic. :-)
39. # [00:34] <Hixie> Lachy: the right solution is for screen readers to be replaced by actual speech browsers
40. # [00:35] <Hixie> i should go eat lunch
41. # [00:35] <Hixie> bbiab
42. # [00:35] <Lachy> Hixie, I agree. But others who work in the accessibility field disagree, cause apparently users use the same screen reader for all their applications, not just web browsing
43. # [00:36] <Philip`> It would be great if the market was large enough to support development of a real browser comparable to IE or Firefox but designed for a speech interface, but it doesn't seem to be
44. # [00:36] <Philip`> Oh, actually that wouldn't be great - it would be best if the market disappeared entirely
45. # [00:37] <Lachy> if there was such a browser that ordinary screen readers could hook into, that might work too, instead of trying to hack an accessibility API onto a browser predominately designed for visual users
46. # [00:37] <roc> since 90% of the code is the same for a visual browser and a speech browser, it would make sense to share the code
47. # [00:37] <Lachy> you mean if we exterminated all potential users of screen readers? Sure, that would work. It's a bit cruel though!
48. # [00:37] <jcranmer> if there was a browser that wacked web developers senseless until they actually designed for non-visual users, that would help
49. # [00:38] <roc> and then you have to ask yourself if it makes sense to have one build for visual and one for speech
50. # [00:38] * jcranmer would have to ask MarcoZ what the internet is like with a screen reader
51. # [00:38] <Philip`> Lachy: I was thinking of a more ideal world where people don't have such disabilities, not one where we kill everyone who doesn't conform
52. # [00:39] <Philip`> s/don't have/never acquire/
53. # [00:40] <Philip`> The problem is when there a lot of people who are affected by poor tools, but not enough to justify the development of good tools
54. # [00:40] <Philip`> *when there are ...
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56. # [00:40] <Lachy> roc, separate browsers could share the same underlying code, but with UI built from the groud up to support different methods of usage
57. # [00:41] <roc> yeah, ok
58. # [00:41] <jcranmer> the Gecko screen reader browser!
59. # [00:41] <Lachy> in my limited use of screen readers, I found that one of my biggest hassels was that the screen reader overrides many of the normal application keyboard shortcuts
60. # [00:42] <roc> given that things like http://vimperator.mozdev.org/ exist, you probably build what's needed as a Firefox extension
61. # [00:42] <Lachy> if the application itself was designed and built with a screen reader UI in mind, then such conflicts could be avoided
62. # [00:42] <jcranmer> an XULRunner application might be better?
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82. # [02:40] <aboodman> question on MessagePorts: why do they have an ownerWindow?
83. # [02:40] <aboodman> it seems weird that you can reach ownerWindow.openDatabase, for example
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86. # [02:45] <Hixie> aboodman: ownerWindow is always the Window in which they are found, so you can always get to the Window anyway
87. # [02:46] <Hixie> i suppose it doesn't have to be made visible to the interface
88. # [02:46] <aboodman> but if I pass a MessagePort through to some other context, what will that context see for port.ownerWindow ?
89. # [02:46] <aboodman> what if it is cross-origin?
90. # [02:46] <Hixie> the ownerWindow will change to the new context
91. # [02:47] <aboodman> oh, i didn't get that part.
92. # [02:47] <Hixie> it's the owner of the port at that time, not the original owner or the creator
93. # [02:47] <Hixie> yeah
94. # [02:47] <aboodman> what is the point of this property?
95. # [02:47] <Hixie> i need to write an intro section
96. # [02:47] <Hixie> i'm not sure why i made it a property
97. # [02:47] <Hixie> the concept is needed for various aspects of how the ports work
98. # [02:47] <Hixie> i don't think we need to actually expose it
99. # [02:47] <aboodman> right
100. # [02:47] <aboodman> ok, thanks
101. # [02:48] <Hixie> if you want it removed, send mail and i'll look at why i put it there in the first place
102. # [02:48] <aboodman> ok
103. # [02:48] <Hixie> right now i'm swamped with dealing with all kinds of whining people
104. # [02:48] <aboodman> ok, can you talk about another aspect of this spec now?
105. # [02:48] <Hixie> sure
106. # [02:48] <Hixie> i can talk abotu anything :-)
107. # [02:48] <aboodman> (i will send mail about it too, but i just love this low latency communication :))
108. # [02:49] <aboodman> ok, web workers, processing model, step 10
109. # [02:49] <aboodman> it says that scripts running in the worker will get suspended when the worker is no longer an active needed worker
110. # [02:50] <Hixie> right
111. # [02:51] <aboodman> so this means that if you say: createWorker("foo.js"), but don't hold a reference to the returned port, foo.js may get paused at any random point
112. # [02:51] <aboodman> (whenever gc happens)
113. # [02:52] <aboodman> let me back up... what is that step for?
114. # [02:52] <Hixie> if you don't hold on to the reference, then step 9 will soon set closing to true
115. # [02:53] <Hixie> and step 10 won't trigger, since it only triggers when closing = false
116. # [02:53] <Hixie> and so the worker will gracefully shutdown
117. # [02:53] <Hixie> the step is intened to pause workers when someone hits the back button and the browser doesn't throw the document away
118. # [02:53] <Hixie> e.g. firefox's bfcache
119. # [02:54] <aboodman> I see.
120. # [02:54] <aboodman> the ports can become inactive separately from being gc'd, i forgota bout that
121. # [02:54] <Hixie> yeah
122. # [02:55] <Hixie> if they try to gc, step 10 doesn't kick in, because step 9 does and step 10 only kicks in when 9 doesn't
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134. # [03:15] <jcranmer> Hixie: you should update the implementation status for FF and audio
135. # [03:16] <Hixie> you can do so too :-)
136. # [03:16] <Hixie> what should it say?
137. # [03:16] <jcranmer> experimental support
138. # [03:16] <Hixie> (alt-double-click on a section to edit the status)
139. # [03:17] <Hixie> ok, will change
140. # [03:17] <jcranmer> alt-double click where?
141. # [03:17] <Hixie> anywhere in a section
142. # [03:18] <jcranmer> oh, I have to login first, I presume?
143. # [03:19] <Hixie> yeah
144. # [03:19] <Hixie> if you've ever sent feedback, you'll have a login name and password
145. # [03:19] <Hixie> login name is the e-mail you used to send feedback
146. # [03:19] <Hixie> password will be sent to that address
147. # [03:19] <jcranmer> and it would help if my WM didn't use alt to handle window stuff...
148. # [03:20] <Hixie> heh
149. # [03:21] * jcranmer is surprised he beat roc to an example of <audio> in a blog
150. # [03:24] <Hixie> feel free to add urls to examples and demos in the spec too
151. # [03:28] <takkaria> I was going to go and update bits of the annotations but I had the same alt- being used for my window manager -problem
152. # [03:31] <Hixie> heh
153. # [03:32] * jcranmer gets lazy and solves the problem the easy way
154. # [03:32] <Hixie> you can press ctrl+alt at the same time i think
155. # [03:32] <Hixie> if that helps
156. # [03:33] <jcranmer> ah, that works
157. # [03:33] <jcranmer> no need to do my workaround: edit host files to point to localhost and then do apache rewriting to change the JS file to use something else
158. # [03:37] <Hixie> heh
159. # [03:38] <Hixie> that was your easy way? :-)
160. # [03:38] <jcranmer> easiest way I could think of to edit the source of another page
161. # [03:38] <Hixie> heh
162. # [03:39] <Hixie> i wonder how a script on whatwg.org can work out what revision it is
163. # [03:39] <jcranmer> I have a few rewrites that redirect unstable.elemental.com to my localhost
164. # [03:44] <jcranmer> what makes a boolean attribute false?
165. # [03:44] <jcranmer> it says it's presence makes it true
166. # [03:44] <jcranmer> but if it's present, it's value is either empty of the name of the attribute itself
167. # [03:44] <jcranmer> so what would attr="false" return?
168. # [03:44] <jcranmer> s/return/reflect/
169. # [03:45] <takkaria> I believe the thing that makes a boolean attribute false is if it is not set
170. # [03:47] <jcranmer> I just want to have confirmation of this before I mark a bug as INVA
171. # [03:48] <aboodman> Hixie: It seems like right now workers shut down whenever there is no non-gc'd port that refers to them. Even if they have script in progress or things like XHR and timers pending. Is this right?
172. # [03:49] <Hixie> aboodman: they set closing to true and run through the closing steps first, so it's gracefull-ish, but yes, fundamentally they're just killed when their owners go away
173. # [03:49] <Hixie> jcranmer: its absence
174. # [03:50] <aboodman> right but it is non-deterministic
175. # [03:50] <aboodman> if the UA doesn't GC then the worker might not shut down
176. # [03:50] <Hixie> yeah, i wasn't sure what to do abotu that
177. # [03:51] <Hixie> i mean, it's non-deterministic anyway, since it's on another thread
178. # [03:51] <aboodman> I think that workers should stay alive as long as:
179. # [03:51] <aboodman> they have script running, they have messages queued for them, they have http requests outstanding, or they have timers ounstanding
180. # [03:52] <aboodman> that would eliminate a lot of hard to understand bugs, when workers sometimes go away and sometimes don't with the same code
181. # [03:52] <Hixie> well it has to be more than that
182. # [03:53] <Hixie> otherwise any random page can just start a worker with a timer and it'll never go away
183. # [03:53] <aboodman> navigation would of course always either nuke or suspend workers
184. # [03:53] <aboodman> whatever is appropriate for the UA
185. # [03:54] <Hixie> how is that not non-deterministic?
186. # [03:54] <Hixie> when you navigate, the worker now has an indeterminate amount of processing time left
187. # [03:54] <aboodman> if i'm a developer and i write some code that uses workers, but i make a mistake and don't hold the port that comes back
188. # [03:54] <aboodman> the code inside that worker will stop running at some random point
189. # [03:54] <aboodman> even without navigating the page
190. # [03:54] <othermaciej_> workers should stay alive at least so long as someone can message them, even if no messages are queued
191. # [03:54] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
192. # [03:55] <othermaciej> otherwise, any global data set inside the worker could be lost on a race condition of message delivery
193. # [03:55] <aboodman> othermaciej_: that is in the spec now i think
194. # [03:55] <othermaciej> yeah, I'm just disagreeing with your "as long as" above, at least as an exhaustive list
195. # [03:55] <Hixie> aboodman: it doesn't stop running at a random point
196. # [03:55] <aboodman> right, sorry, I forgot about "someone can message them"
197. # [03:55] <Hixie> aboodman: it runs to completion
198. # [03:55] <othermaciej> and I am not sure "someone can message them" can be determined short of GC
199. # [03:56] <othermaciej> unless there is an explicit way to close a message port I suppose
200. # [03:56] <Hixie> there is, but i doubt many people will use it, and i certainly don't think we should rely on them doing so
201. # [03:57] <aboodman> does "run to completion" means that the current event that is being processed finishes, or does it mean that all queued events finish being processed
202. # [03:57] <othermaciej> yeah, you can't realy on it
203. # [03:58] <Hixie> aboodman: all queued events get processed (but no new events can be queued once closing is true)
204. # [03:58] <aboodman> othermaciej: I agree that you can't determine "someone can message them" short of a GC, but I"m just saying that that alone should not determine the worker's lifetime.
205. # [03:59] <aboodman> Hixie: ok, but httprequests still may or may not happen, right?
206. # [03:59] <aboodman> same with timers I suppose
207. # [03:59] <othermaciej> aboodman: I think a message with queued messages or pending timers or pending I/O should continue even if no one can (currently) message it
208. # [03:59] <othermaciej> aboodman: I don't see how you would do it without either counting on GC, or explicit close
209. # [03:59] <Hixie> if an xml http request is outstanding, or if there is a repeating interval or an outstanding timer waiting, those are discarded, yes
210. # [03:59] <Hixie> because otherwise you could use that to stay alive forever
211. # [04:00] <othermaciej> I am assuming here that the message port for the thread is a GC object and anyone who can reach that object can send a message
212. # [04:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
213. # [04:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: I know that is true in the current spec, what I mean is I am assuming it even for hypothetical designs that tried to make shutdown time not depend on GC
214. # [04:01] <aboodman> othermaciej: I agree with you, but I don't think the spec reflects this
215. # [04:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: ah ok
216. # [04:02] <othermaciej> "fire and forget" threads should be allowed IMO, if they are doing I/O or something
217. # [04:03] <aboodman> Hixie: are you worried specifically about named workers staying alive forever? Because I don't see the problem with anonymous ones doing that. They will go away at page unload.
218. # [04:03] <Hixie> right now the mechanism for them going away at page unload is the same mechanism as them going away any other time
219. # [04:03] <Hixie> i suppose we could have a new mechanism
220. # [04:03] <Hixie> that is different for that case
221. # [04:04] <aboodman> it doesn't have to be ... unload could just be defined to nuke all (anonymous) workers
222. # [04:04] <Hixie> that won't work
223. # [04:04] <Hixie> workers can be created by one window and passed off to another
224. # [04:05] <aboodman> Right. I didn't realize that you intended for those to stay alive.
225. # [04:05] <aboodman> past their owning window closing.
226. # [04:05] <Hixie> they are still "active" and "needed", in that you can still send messages to them
227. # [04:05] <Hixie> i think it'd be confusing if they had a lifetime bounded by whatever random iframe or worker created them
228. # [04:06] <Hixie> you want to be able to have a worker spawn off new workers to service requests for gadgets or whatever
229. # [04:06] <Hixie> and have those live independent of hte original factory worker
230. # [04:06] <othermaciej> I think maybe there should be different mechanisms for termination on navigation vs otherwise
231. # [04:06] <othermaciej> though unsure of the detauls
232. # [04:06] <othermaciej> *details
233. # [04:06] <aboodman> I see the problem. I was thinking of anonymous workers as more firmly attached to a page.
234. # [04:06] <othermaciej> for the scope of a particular page I think it should be possible to make a thread that will periodically message you but that you don't care to message ever
235. # [04:06] <othermaciej> for instance
236. # [04:07] <othermaciej> but such a thread should not (under ordinary circumstances) survive a page navigation
237. # [04:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: hm, right now to do that you'd have to keep a reference in the page
238. # [04:07] <Hixie> iirc
239. # [04:07] <aboodman> othermaciej: if it can message you, you have a port for it, so it will stay alive.
240. # [04:07] <Hixie> not if you set up a handler for the port and then drop it all on the floor
241. # [04:08] <othermaciej> oh I see, the ports are all bidirectional
242. # [04:08] <Hixie> oh wait
243. # [04:08] <Hixie> no
244. # [04:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
245. # [04:08] <Hixie> the other port itself will prevent the port from being GC'ed
246. # [04:08] <Hixie> so what you describe will work
247. # [04:08] <aboodman> right.
248. # [04:08] <othermaciej> I forgot about that (though it leads to something else in the spec I don't like, the fact that ports are killed on transfer)
249. # [04:09] <othermaciej> ports that are endpoints of the same pipe protect each other?
250. # [04:09] <Hixie> yeah
251. # [04:09] <Hixie> (s/pipe/channel/)
252. # [04:09] <othermaciej> what about a completely fire-and-forget thread, where you ask it to do some I/O but no further messaging is expected either way?
253. # [04:09] <aboodman> but you couldn't, for example, set up a worker that would synchronize a database with the network but never message the creator.
254. # [04:09] <aboodman> it would seem to work for a little while, but it would go away after awhile.
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256. # [04:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: right now that thread will die before it gets its onreadystatechange, assuming that it uses async IO
257. # [04:10] <Hixie> aboodman: yeah...
258. # [04:10] <Hixie> not sure how to handle these two cases
259. # [04:11] <othermaciej> it seems like a potentially useful use case
260. # [04:11] <Hixie> i agree it'd be good to handle them
261. # [04:11] <aboodman> i'm less concerned about the use case than it failing in weird ways
262. # [04:11] <othermaciej> you could let self-effected liveness criteria not count at page navigation time or something
263. # [04:12] <Hixie> actually...
264. # [04:12] * Hixie looks at the spec
265. # [04:13] <Hixie> so...
266. # [04:13] <Hixie> what we could do is add an implicit link from any worker to whoever created it
267. # [04:14] <Hixie> so that it won't ever get killed if whoever created it is still there, so long as it has any outstanding timers, intervals, database callbacks, or xmlhttp request callbacks pending
268. # [04:17] <aboodman> so the creator doesn't reference it in the same way that a port does... it is only used in the case where there are no live ports
269. # [04:18] <aboodman> if there are no live ports, but there is outstanding IO or timers, and the creator is still there, then it keeps running
270. # [04:19] <Hixie> right
271. # [04:19] <Hixie> though that will make debugging a bitch
272. # [04:19] <Hixie> "why is that worker still running? how do i disable it?
273. # [04:19] <Hixie> "
274. # [04:19] <Hixie> just because it happens to have setInterval(function () {}, 100);
275. # [04:20] <aboodman> hm, yeah. weird. i'll think about it.
276. # [04:21] <othermaciej> a number of DOM-related objects have "live while some message is pending, even if no one kept a reference" semantics
277. # [04:21] <othermaciej> for instance this is true of Image and XMLHttpRequest
278. # [04:21] <othermaciej> workers of course have a much richer way of making themselves have a pending action
279. # [04:21] <aboodman> yeah the only thing that is weird with workers is that their lifespans can be longer than a page
280. # [04:22] <othermaciej> that is true of Image and XMLHttpRequest too
281. # [04:22] <Hixie> yeah
282. # [04:23] <aboodman> how is it true of image and xhr?
283. # [04:23] <Hixie> aboodman: feel free to send mail if you come up with some other idea (or even if you don't); i agree that we should do something about this either way
284. # [04:23] <othermaciej> you can hand one to a different page
285. # [04:23] <aboodman> wow, I didn't realize that.
286. # [04:23] <othermaciej> (don't remember what happens if you then navigate the originating page)
287. # [04:23] <othermaciej> you can pass references to any object in the DOM cross-frame (which amounts to cross-page)
288. # [04:23] <aboodman> i mean it makes sense you can pass the object to another page, it's just an object
289. # [04:24] <aboodman> i just never considered what should happen when you do this with an xhr
290. # [04:24] <Hixie> heh
291. # [04:24] <aboodman> it would be interesting to know what xhr does when you navigate the originating page
292. # [04:26] <othermaciej> it may depend on which frame started the load rather than which constructed the object
293. # [04:26] <othermaciej> not really sure though
294. # [04:26] <aboodman> i need to run, i'll start a thread with this feedback on the list
295. # [04:26] <aboodman> thanks both for your time
296. # [04:26] <Hixie> cool
297. # [04:26] <Hixie> np
298. # [04:26] <Hixie> thanks for the feedback!
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302. # [04:52] <Hixie> Lachy: ok, there's a checkbox in the status section now which, if checked, will let you know within 30 seconds of me committing some new revision
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319. # [07:27] <Hixie> aboodman2, othermaciej, it would be useful to have your input on the issues sicking has raised recently, like pushState() and the workers stuff
320. # [07:28] <aboodman2> you mean the message he just sent, or was there something earlier?
321. # [07:28] <aboodman2> also, I'm trying to reply, but whatwg.org is not responding :-/.
322. # [07:28] <Hixie> that one, and the thread on pushState() recently (which i just replied to -- i'll give you a link in a sec)
323. # [07:28] <Hixie> uh yes the server seems non-responsive wtf
324. # [07:29] <Hixie> the machine is working fine except apache is on strike
325. # [07:29] <aboodman2> I didn't understand his comment about pulling in all of navigator and window. I was going to check the proposal again, because I don't remember that being true.
326. # [07:30] <Hixie> i think he was speaking hypothetically
327. # [07:30] <Hixie> why is apache not working
328. # [07:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: I saw the pushState thread
329. # [07:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: in general it kind of makes sense to require auxiliary data to be stuffed into the URL somehow, since that preserves bookmarkability and shareability of the URL as well as back/forward
330. # [07:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: but perhaps there are use cases where back/forward is very useful but recording a particular configuration persistently is not, in which case some form of data would make sense
331. # [07:32] <othermaciej> that's my off-the-cuff opinion
332. # [07:32] <Hixie> i'm ok with dropping the data part and only using URL
333. # [07:33] <Hixie> ok seriously wtf is with my server
334. # [07:33] * Hixie reboots it, because, well, what else can he do
335. # [07:34] <aboodman2> Hixie
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337. # [07:34] <aboodman2> whoa, sorry, new IRC client, unfamiliar controls
338. # [07:34] <Hixie> aboodman2
339. # [07:34] <Hixie> :-)
340. # [07:35] <aboodman2> Hixie: I havne't looked at the state management spec at all, so I don't think I have much to say about that thread right now.
341. # [07:35] <Hixie> aboodman2: server's back up
342. # [07:35] <Hixie> ok
343. # [07:35] <aboodman2> I'll try and catch up on it, but right now my higher concerns are workers, database, and offline
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345. # [07:36] <Hixie> sure
346. # [07:37] <Hixie> i'm just curious to get the opinion of other implementors, lest one implementor end up with undue influence
347. # [07:37] <Hixie> nothing against jonas of course, i have the utmost respect for him
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350. # [07:50] <aboodman2> Hixie: what is the name of the interface that Window and WorkerWindow share? I cannot find it.
351. # [07:51] <aboodman2> WindowWorker, sorry
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353. # [07:54] <aboodman2> nevermind, found it.
354. # [07:56] <Hixie> sorry was afk
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357. # [08:12] <mcarter> I don't suppose anyone has any idea what is supposed to happen (if there is a standard) if an HTTP/1.1 XHR response is half over when there is a page navigation. Should it a) shut the connection immediately, or b) wait for the rest of the response (though now irrelevant), and then re-use the connection?
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373. # [10:03] <Hixie> r2000!
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378. # [10:28] <Hixie> i'm starting to think that julian wants me to _require_ that people use URIs, not just allow it
379. # [10:28] <Hixie> (for class names)
380. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
381. # [10:29] <Philip`> (For class names that are intended to have a shared meaning across multiple sites and tools, I presume)
382. # [10:29] <hsivonen> the migration of the cc prefix from http://web.resource.org/cc/ to http://creativecommons.org/ns# shows that vocabularies outlive domain bikeshedding
383. # [10:30] <Philip`> Does anyone use IP addresses in namespace identifiers?
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385. # [10:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: not in the wikimedia dataset
386. # [10:31] <hsivonen> also, the most common metadata item is utterly pointless: http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/ dc format
387. # [10:32] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22xmlns+http+1..255%22 - oh, they do
388. # [10:32] <hsivonen> if you are looking for metadata inside an svg file, surely you should be able to infer that the format is SVG
389. # [10:32] <Philip`> (By the way, why does Google bolden the first two numbers in the IP addresses in the search results?)
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392. # [10:32] <hsivonen> wow
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395. # [10:34] <Philip`> Class names should just be GUIDs
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399. # [10:39] <Hixie> if he wants everyone to use uris, then that seems a bit rude...
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401. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: if only some people use uris and others use anything, anything may accidentally collide with an URI
402. # [10:41] <Hixie> yeah, that's likely </sarcasm>
403. # [10:42] <hsivonen> easy fix: if colon, must be uri
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412. # [10:46] <Hixie> seriously, if he's actually worried that people will invent class names that coincidentally happen to look exactly like URIs in his domain, then he has his priorities wrong
413. # [10:47] <othermaciej> look, the problem is clear
414. # [10:48] <othermaciej> we can't let extensions to the Web be limited by a central registry
415. # [10:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: including TLDs?
416. # [10:48] <othermaciej> that is why we must use a mechanism with *two* central registries, one for URI schemes, and one for domain names
417. # [10:49] <othermaciej> because then it is decentralized
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420. # [11:04] <Hixie> the recent thread on the big-issue markup is surprisingly good at distinguishing people who understand the web and accessibility and those who don't
421. # [11:12] <gDashiva> hsivonen: About the cc: prefix, are you saying the namespace was changed, but everything just uses cc: and didn't notice, or?
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428. # [11:30] <hsivonen> gDashiva: the prefix was retained. the local part of the vocabulary was retained. the URI changed, breaking processors that process namespaces or RDF correctly
429. # [11:31] <Philip`> Just set up an HTTP redirect at the old URI, and it should all be fine
430. # [11:31] <hsivonen> hah
431. # [11:32] <Philip`> Hixie: "If it is no a number"
432. # [11:32] <Hixie> fixed
433. # [11:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: is v.nu expected to be down?
434. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: no
435. # [11:33] <Hixie> it's been returning 503 for a few hours now
436. # [11:33] <Hixie> html5.validator.nu specifically
437. # [11:33] <Hixie> (trying to validate the spec)
438. # [11:34] <hsivonen> I'll move to a place where I can sit down to fix.
439. # [11:34] <Hixie> btw for those of you who weren't around earlier, there is now a magic checkbox in the SotD section of the whatwg draft
440. # [11:34] <Hixie> and we crossed the 2000 revision mark
441. # [11:34] <gDashiva> magic checkbox, wow
442. # [11:36] <Philip`> Sadly revision 2000 was just shuffling some text around and seemingly didn't introduce any new errors, so I can't complain about an R2K bug
443. # [11:36] <Hixie> heh
444. # [11:37] <gDashiva> Maybe he modified the commit-watchers mail
445. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's back up now
446. # [11:37] <hsivonen> I really need to get that SMS thing in place
447. # [11:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks for the heads up
448. # [11:38] <Hixie> np, sorry for not telling you earlier
449. # [11:39] <Hixie> i can have my system e-mail you if it notices a problem if you like
450. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: email doesn't reach me when there's a situation that I'm not otherwise babysittng the server :-(
451. # [11:40] <Hixie> k
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456. # [11:46] <Lachy> that distributed extensibility thread is getting really annoying. It seems to be taken for granted that a) clashes are inevitable and b) it causes big problems when they occur, without actually explaining what the problem is when 2 distinct sites use common class names for different purposes, intended for processing by their own individual tools
457. # [11:46] <Hixie> yes it's especially annoying given that both a and b are flase
458. # [11:46] <Hixie> false
459. # [11:47] <Lachy> if their extensions are intended for use outside their own domain, then such extensions need community involvment. Otherwise, it really makes no difference
460. # [11:47] <Hixie> what should happen to transparency when someone uses toDateURL() with a non-transparency-supporting image type?
461. # [11:47] <Hixie> Lachy: feel free to take over from me here, i'm quite ready to move on to more productive things
462. # [11:48] <Lachy> nah, I've avoided contributing to the whole thread on the list in the hope that it would die out on its own
463. # [11:48] <gDashiva> Clearly hash functions would never work on the internet
464. # [11:49] <Lachy> it should either be converted to the <canvas> element's background colour (if any), or some default colour like white
465. # [11:49] <Philip`> Canvases rarely have a background-color so it seems weird and unexpected to depend on that
466. # [11:49] <Philip`> s/a/a non-transparent/
467. # [11:50] <Hixie> not to mention off-DOM canvasaes
468. # [11:50] <Hixie> or canvii
469. # [11:50] <Lachy> then in those cases, they would use the default colour
470. # [11:51] <Hixie> i'm saying it should just drop the alpha channel
471. # [11:51] <Hixie> which basically means using black
472. # [11:51] <Philip`> It seems simplest to always effectively composite onto a solid black or white background
473. # [11:51] <Philip`> and if people want some other background then they can draw it manually
474. # [11:51] <Philip`> "drop the alpha channel" may confuse people who are using premultiplied alpha representations
475. # [11:52] <Hixie> + <p>For image types that do not support all the channels (in particular,
476. # [11:52] <Hixie> + that do not support an alpha channel) the unsupported channels must be
477. # [11:52] <Hixie> + ignored when creating the image.
478. # [11:52] <Hixie> what should i say instead?
479. # [11:52] <Philip`> Why try to cover the non-existent case where an image format is missing support for the R/G/B channels?
480. # [11:53] <Philip`> Well, not really non-existent, since some greyscale formats exist, but then you'd want to do something cleverer rather than just dropping all the colour channels
481. # [11:53] <Lachy> so if someone set the colour to rgba(255, 0, 0, 0), then dropping the alpha channel would make it go red?
482. # [11:53] <Hixie> if someone set the colour to rgba(255, 0, 0, 0), it would probably be stored as 0,0,0,0
483. # [11:53] <Lachy> ok
484. # [11:54] <Philip`> Oh, that sounds confusing
485. # [11:54] <Lachy> what if it was rgba(255, 0, 0, 0.1)?
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487. # [11:54] <Hixie> Philip` is the expert here
488. # [11:54] <Hixie> i'm hoping he'll tell me what it should say :-)
489. # [11:55] <Hixie> should i just explicitly say that you multiple the alpha channel with the rgb channels and use taht?
490. # [11:55] <Hixie> multiply, that
491. # [11:55] <Philip`> That sounds reasonable, though it might be easier to phrase it in terms of compositing the image onto a solid black background with source-in
492. # [11:56] <Philip`> Uh
493. # [11:56] <Philip`> source-over
494. # [11:56] <Philip`> or it might not be, I don't know :-p
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496. # [11:57] <Lachy> Philip`, wouldn't compositing the image onto a solid white background give better results?
497. # [11:57] <Philip`> (At least then rgba(255,0,0,0) will always come out as rgb(0,0,0), and it won't depend on the internal representation)
498. # [11:57] <Philip`> Lachy: What does "better" mean?
499. # [11:58] <Lachy> well, the resulting colours won't be dark
500. # [11:58] <Hixie> Philip`: is this ok?:
501. # [11:58] <Hixie> <p>For image types that do not support an alpha channel, the image
502. # [11:58] <Hixie> must first be composited onto a solid black background using the
503. # [11:58] <Hixie> source-over operator, and then exported.</p>
504. # [11:58] <Lachy> what do image editors do in this situation?
505. # [12:00] <Hixie> actually:
506. # [12:00] <Hixie> + <p>For image types that do not support an alpha channel, the image
507. # [12:00] <Hixie> + must be composited onto a solid black background using the
508. # [12:00] <Hixie> + source-over operator, and the resulting image must be the one used
509. # [12:00] <Hixie> + to create the <code title="">data:</code> URL.</p>
510. # [12:01] <Philip`> Lachy: If you draw solid shapes onto the canvas, then it won't matter what the background colour is; and if you draw transparent objects, then try to save it to a format that doesn't support transparency, it's never going to work properly and it'll give unexpected results regardless of what we do
511. # [12:02] <Lachy> ok, but it just seems more intuitive to me to use a white background
512. # [12:02] <Philip`> so I guess what matters is just what's unexpected in the fewest cases
513. # [12:03] <Philip`> Lachy: The image editors that I've used seem to use either white or the colour in the background position in your colour palette thing
514. # [12:03] <Lachy> yeah, that's what I thought
515. # [12:03] <Philip`> I wouldn't object to using white instead of black
516. # [12:04] <Philip`> Hixie: It should perhaps be clearer that the compositing is creating a new temporary image, and not affecting the original at all
517. # [12:04] <krijnh> "So it seems to be pointless to continue this discussion." - "Could you elaborate?" - huh?
518. # [12:05] <Hixie> Philip`: that's what the second block above (which i committed) is trying to be more explicit about
519. # [12:06] <gDashiva> Is Julian on IRC?
520. # [12:07] <krijnh> In #html-wg, yes
521. # [12:07] <Philip`> (Oops, got to go for an hour)
522. # [12:09] * gDashiva wonders if the whole thread could be killed off by a small IRC chat
523. # [12:10] <krijnh> I have that idea with almost every thread on public-html :)
524. # [12:12] <Lachy> it does indeed seem like our discussions in here are more productive than public-html sometimes.
525. # [12:12] <krijnh> But in here there's no concept of concensus ;)
526. # [12:12] <krijnh> Ow, wait :)
527. # [12:16] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
528. # [12:17] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
529. # [12:18] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
530. # [12:26] <gDashiva> krijnh: I disagree, there's consensus all the time
531. # [12:26] <Hixie> the reload thing works really well in webkit
532. # [12:28] <krijnh> gDashiva: Yeah, but that's because Hixie kicks people who don't agree with him :)
533. # [12:28] <Hixie> hah
534. # [12:28] <Hixie> i haven't kicked anyone like ever from this channel :-P
535. # [12:28] <krijnh> Luckily such lines aren't logged by me :)
536. # [12:28] <gDashiva> Even if that were true, it would still be consensus in the channel
537. # [12:28] <Hixie> actually we lost ops years ago
538. # [12:28] <Lachy> /kick krijnh
539. # [12:28] <krijnh> :+
540. # [12:28] <gDashiva> That's how the w3c consensus works, isn't it? They just keep people with common sense locked out :P
541. # [12:28] <Hixie> hey woah watch out he does our logs!
542. # [12:29] <krijnh> Yeah, watch out for my powers!
543. # [12:30] <Lachy> there's a way to get ops back into the channel. I think it involves registerring the channel somehow
544. # [12:31] <gDashiva> You need op to register, though :)
545. # [12:31] * Joins: tusho (n=tusho@91.105.96.84)
546. # [12:31] <Hixie> i'm sad that nobody loves my little update tracking thingy
547. # [12:31] <Hixie> except me
548. # [12:31] <Lachy> I haven't seen it work yet
549. # [12:31] <krijnh> This kicking thing reminds me of #css on Quakenet, when CounterStrike:Source was just released :P
550. # [12:31] <gDashiva> They can probably make an exception, but the usual wisdom is that if the channel members can't coordinate a channel clearing, they aren't coordinated enough to need ops
551. # [12:31] <Hixie> Lachy: odd, what browser?
552. # [12:32] <Lachy> probably cause I haven't been paying attention. what exactly does it do?
553. # [12:32] <Hixie> if you check the checkbox, it should let you know within 30 seconds of the spec being updated
554. # [12:33] <Lachy> oh, nice
555. # [12:33] <Hixie> (checking the checkbox also forces an immediate check)
556. # [12:33] <Lachy> can you make the automatic updates checkbox more visible?
557. # [12:33] <Hixie> sure
558. # [12:33] <Hixie> where should i put it
559. # [12:33] <Lachy> maybe put it up with the login box in the top right of the page?
560. # [12:33] <Hixie> ok
561. # [12:34] <Lachy> or in the Version History list
562. # [12:37] <Lachy> Hixie, why don't you combine revision.dat and revision-message.dat, so it doesn't take 2 requests to get the info that could be obtained with one
563. # [12:38] <Lachy> just make revision.dat contain a string like:
564. # [12:38] <Lachy> r2006 Fixed Fix validation errors.
565. # [12:38] <Lachy> and then split on the first space
566. # [12:38] <Lachy> s/Fixed //
567. # [12:39] <Hixie> mostly to make the backend easier
568. # [12:39] <Hixie> it's all managed from shell scripts
569. # [12:40] <Lachy> ok.
570. # [12:40] <Lachy> Now that there's an API, I might be able to look into providing a DOM diff feature
571. # [12:42] * Joins: svl (n=me@203.156.36.143)
572. # [12:45] <Lachy> Hixie, what's the point of appending the '?[todays date]' to the URL for revision.dat?
573. # [12:47] <Hixie> poor man's no-cache
574. # [12:47] <Lachy> oh, why don't you just use a real Cache-Control header?
575. # [12:48] <Hixie> it was easier than working out the correct .htaccess fu :-)
576. # [12:48] <Lachy> ok
577. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you considered allowing stuff like <org.webkit.canvas>?
578. # [12:49] <Hixie> it is allowed
579. # [12:50] <Hixie> oh you mean as a tag name
580. # [12:50] <hsivonen> in the tag name
581. # [12:50] <Hixie> that would have a terrible accessibility story
582. # [12:50] <Hixie> the whole point of using class="" is that it has a fallback element that at least somewhat provides some semantics
583. # [12:50] <zcorpan> everyone would just use divs anyway
584. # [12:50] <Hixie> e.g. <p class="note"> instead of <ch.hixie.spec.note>
585. # [12:50] <hsivonen> how's that worse than <span class='org.webkit.canvas'>?
586. # [12:51] <Hixie> for browser vendors, the extension strategy is to come to the working group, ask for input for a few days, then mint a new element like <canvas>
587. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: I agree
588. # [12:52] <Hixie> so we're not talking about browser vendors or things like <canvas> here
589. # [12:53] <hsivonen> well, <org.purl.dc.3.2.phase-of-moon-at-document-creation>
590. # [12:53] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
591. # [12:54] <Hixie> then yes, <span class="org.purl.dc.3.2.phase-of-moon-at-document-creation"> is better
592. # [12:54] <Lachy> I don't really understand what kind of extensions they're asking for. If it's just for personal/organisational site-specific use, then there's no problem to solve. If it's for wider use in the community, then letting them mint their own extensions without communication is a bad idea
593. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: why?
594. # [12:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: because then UAs don't have to worry about whether the element is inline or block, they can just look at whether it's a <div> or a <span>
595. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: as far as I can tell, the problem is having to ask Hixie or Tantek.
596. # [12:55] <Hixie> and for cases where there is a more appropriate semantic, there is built-in fallback
597. # [12:55] <Hixie> they don't have to ask tantek, they can mint their own class names as they wish
598. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't span-likeness the default?
599. # [12:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: it could be, but then the moment you wanted a block-likeness, or an emphasis-likeness, or an aside-likeness (as i really want for class=note) then you'd have to change to a different syntax
600. # [12:56] <Hixie> Lachy: updated the ui, is it better now?
601. # [12:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: you'd just use Cascading Semantic Sheets
602. # [12:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: do you mean literally cascading style sheets, or tongue-in-cheek a hypothetical cascading semantic sheets?
603. # [12:57] <Lachy> Hixie, yes
604. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: both.
605. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: display: block;
606. # [12:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: for CSS, that doesn't help in the no-CSS case. for the latter, i don't understand how that would work in practice. i suggested it years ago before i realised how intractable the problem was.
607. # [12:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: (in principle, we can't rely on CSS.)
608. # [12:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: (and relying on CSS doesn't help turn the element into <aside> or <em> or whatever in media that i haven't written a sheet for)
609. # [12:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: (which was in fact the very problem that came up today)
610. # [12:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not seriously suggesting separation of semantics and structure
611. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: but in practice, people (who don't consider accessibility of extensions) seems to be OK with including CSS for their custom stuff
612. # [13:01] <Hixie> in practice, people (who don't consider accessibility) seem to be OK with doing everything with <font> and <table> and <img> and don't bother putting alt="" on their <img>s either
613. # [13:01] <Hixie> but that doesn't mean we should allow any of that
614. # [13:02] * hsivonen is annoyed at dojotoolkit.org breaking Open Link in New Window
615. # [13:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: not allowing it is centralized command
616. # [13:03] <Hixie> ?
617. # [13:03] <Hixie> can you rephrase that? i don't understand what you mean
618. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: saying that people aren't allowed to do stuff is not Decentralized.
619. # [13:04] <Hixie> and?
620. # [13:05] <hsivonen> Decentralized Good, Centralized Bad, it seems :-)
621. # [13:05] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-99d8beb6060fb943)
622. # [13:05] <Hixie> well then let's disband the w3c, the whatwg, the ietf, iana, and give up on web standards
623. # [13:06] <Philip`> That's actually quite a good plan
624. # [13:06] <Hixie> not if we want any kind of interoperability
625. # [13:12] <jgraham> Hixie: Is there any actual problem with disallowing classnames that look like URIs but do not correspond to the requirements for minting URIs (e.g. that they are owned by the person who owns the domain name in the case of tag: URIs)
626. # [13:12] <Hixie> it won't make him happy, is the problem
627. # [13:12] <Hixie> because despite his love affair with uris, he also thinks they're ugly
628. # [13:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: you could do with what XForms does with inputtypes
629. # [13:12] <jgraham> It would solve about half the issues he has raised
630. # [13:12] <hsivonen> and WF2 by reference
631. # [13:13] <Hixie> which is?
632. # [13:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the string contains a colon, it must be an absolute URL
633. # [13:13] <hsivonen> basically denying the colon to those who don't love URIs an identifiers
634. # [13:13] <gDashiva> That would kill off namespaces too :)
635. # [13:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: URLs are worse than URIs in this case I think
636. # [13:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, absolute IRI then
637. # [13:14] <hsivonen> because URI wouldn't be internationalized
638. # [13:14] <hsivonen> and we wouldn't want to leave things uninternationalized
639. # [13:14] <jgraham> Yeah, OK :)
640. # [13:15] <gDashiva> I'm wondering, though. What is there to prevent me from creating an awesome vocabulary using some company I don't relate to for the namespace URL?
641. # [13:15] <hsivonen> gDashiva: you don't have the Authority!
642. # [13:16] <jgraham> gDashiva: There are MUST NOT conditions!
643. # [13:16] <gDashiva> So Hixie could add "@class identifiers MUST NOT conflict with other identifiers made by people who worry about conflicting identifiers"
644. # [13:18] <krijnh> (why don't you guys talk about this with Julian, in #html-wg? You're all there as well)
645. # [13:20] <gDashiva> We need to establish consensus first
646. # [13:22] <Lachy> gDashiva, do you mean we need to get everyone to agree to move the conversation to the other channel, before we can move it?
647. # [13:22] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
648. # [13:23] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
649. # [13:24] <gDashiva> Lachy: Yes, otherwise it wouldn't be backwards compatible with all the chatters
650. # [13:24] <Lachy> alright. If that's what we're going to do, then we'd better organise an official survey announce it, give everyone sufficient time to answer it, and then come back in a couple of weeks with the results :-)
651. # [13:25] * gDashiva waves to the log watchers.
652. # [13:26] <Lachy> I'm surprised by the total lack of discussion about the alt attribute changes.
653. # [13:26] <gDashiva> I'm surprised the video thread died out so fast
654. # [13:26] <hsivonen> we could just try switching and see if connections to irc.w3.org stay up and whether there will be Formal Objections
655. # [13:26] <krijnh> Lachy: please don't be! I'm happy the way it is :)
656. # [13:26] <Lachy> we had a total of 2 emails giving feedback about the spec, and one responding to say it was fixed.
657. # [13:27] <Lachy> I'm happy too. Just very surprised.
658. # [13:27] <Lachy> oh, and we also had one blog entry discussing process issues, rather than any technical issues.
659. # [13:27] <gDashiva> hsivonen: We all know nothing good can come out of such unilateral implementations without sufficient evaluation in a peer group
660. # [13:29] * Quits: svl (n=me@203.156.36.143) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
661. # [13:30] <Hixie> video thread?
662. # [13:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: switching what?
663. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: switching to discussing on #html-wg
664. # [13:32] <Hixie> ah
665. # [13:32] <Lachy> http://standardssuck.org/grddl-bridging-the-interwebs
666. # [13:33] <gDashiva> Lachy: I don't have headphones, are there transcripts available?
667. # [13:33] <Lachy> not yet. But you can try lip reading.
668. # [13:34] <Lachy> "If you look at microformats just right, it's really RDF" Hah! :-)
669. # [13:34] <gDashiva> Isn't everything RDF if you squint enough?
670. # [13:35] <Lachy> he's giving a Matrix analogy
671. # [13:35] <Lachy> talking about red and blue pills
672. # [13:35] <gDashiva> Oh
673. # [13:35] <gDashiva> heh
674. # [13:39] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32212/calls4html2008aug/
675. # [13:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Has that questionnaire been announced to the HTML WG?
676. # [13:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not afaik
677. # [13:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is it for PFWG only?
678. # [13:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: not afaict
679. # [13:44] <zcorpan> or maybe it is
680. # [13:47] <Lachy> Decentralized Extensibility is to Namespaces what Intelligent Design is to Creationism" - hsivonen, do you mean Decentralised extensibility and namespaces are exactly the same thing?
681. # [13:47] <gDashiva> No, that ID is a sneaky way to attempt to get acceptance for C
682. # [13:47] <Lachy> because ID and creationism as the same thing, with a different name
683. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: I mean that Decentralized Extensibility is a marketing fig leaf for Namespaces
684. # [13:48] <Lachy> ok
685. # [13:51] <Hixie> the red and blue pills is where i stopped watching that podcast
686. # [13:51] <Hixie> i couldn't take it anymore
687. # [13:51] <Hixie> too much truth that i couldn't handle, maybe, you decide :-)
688. # [13:52] <hsivonen> http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill
689. # [13:52] <Lachy> I haven't finished watching it either.
690. # [13:52] <gDashiva> anne's post reminds me of final destination
691. # [13:54] <Hixie> i'll be interested to see how sam responds to my last e-mail
692. # [14:07] <Lachy> How can Julian claim that clashing namespace prefixes has never been a problem in practice, yet be so adamant about clashing class names being a problem?
693. # [14:08] <gDashiva> Apparently there are lots of malicious authors who would gladly steal your class name and abuse it, but would never consider doing the same with a namespace because namespaces are holy
694. # [14:10] <hsivonen> gDashiva: just like the XHTML namespace is holy and the XHTML2 WG has Authority over it despite browser vendors having the Power to pollute it with <canvas>.
695. # [14:11] <Hixie> it's because nobody uses namespaces
696. # [14:12] * Hixie ducks
697. # [14:13] <gDashiva> Hunt-and-peck = duck typing?
698. # [14:15] <Lachy> nobody would use URI based class names either. They don't solve any real problems, that aren't solved by a simple organisational prefix, and even the benefits of such a prefix are questionable for private class names.
699. # [14:16] <gDashiva> Hixie: What you suggested about only complicating the class=math classname, wouldn't that lead to the same copypaste problems namespaces is drowning us in?
700. # [14:17] <Hixie> how so?
701. # [14:17] <Lachy> so, I guess my problem is that I'm don't really understand the intended use cases they're trying to solve with whatever it is they're asking for, and it's not really that clear to me what they're asking for since URIs are supposedly ugly, yet they want a URI-based extension mechanism
702. # [14:17] <gDashiva> Since the internal classnames would mean different things if you pasted them into a different container classname
703. # [14:18] <Lachy> gDashiva, doesn't seem to have been a problem for microformats
704. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: how do we really know what's a problem for microformats when parsing them is not documented, so we cannot evaluate parsing against real content
705. # [14:19] <Hixie> yeah i really don't fully understand what is being requested either
706. # [14:20] <Hixie> gDashiva: well that's like <circle> in svg not meaning anything useful outside of an <svg> container
707. # [14:20] <Hixie> gDashiva: which isn't really a big problem
708. # [14:20] <Lachy> maybe it would be better to wait and see if some sort of distributed extensibility design pattern emerges, and then once such a thing as proven itself, then we can spec it
709. # [14:21] <gDashiva> Hixie: Yes. But if we entertain the idea of collisions, there could be a SillyVectorGraphics container and the cirle would be sillified when pasted there.
710. # [14:21] <Hixie> Lachy: like, say, microformats? :-)
711. # [14:21] <Lachy> so if a design pattern ever emerges that says to use reverse-dns domains, like class="org.example-foobar", and it becomes popular we could spec it
712. # [14:21] <Hixie> gDashiva: yes, indeed.
713. # [14:21] <Lachy> but, yeah, microformats seems to do well in that space anyway
714. # [14:22] <Hixie> gDashiva: i don't see that as happening much though
715. # [14:23] <gDashiva> Hixie: Agreed, but when the premise of disagreement is that collisions will happen, I thought it might be useful to see where that takes us :)
716. # [14:25] <Hixie> gDashiva: it'll take us to the same place as people copying an <li> from an <ol> to a <ul>, or a <dt> from a <dl> to a <dialog>
717. # [14:29] <Hixie> class="" is new? good to know
718. # [14:29] <Hixie> (doesn't it predate xml, let alone xmlns?)
719. # [14:29] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-734a2c02ca4be261)
720. # [14:31] <Hixie> ok, bed time (long past)
721. # [14:32] <Hixie> nn
722. # [14:41] <gDashiva> ... did I disconnect?
723. # [14:41] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
724. # [14:42] <gDashiva> Hope our logger has a stable connection :)
725. # [14:42] <krijnh> zzz
726. # [14:44] <gDashiva> krijnh: Is your tagline list public?
727. # [14:44] <krijnh> gDashiva: no :)
728. # [14:44] <gDashiva> So you want us to brute force it, then? :)
729. # [14:44] <krijnh> Well, in a way it is
730. # [14:45] <krijnh> What do you want?
731. # [14:45] <zcorpan> krijnh: how about an ajaxy button for the next tagline?
732. # [14:45] <gDashiva> Something like that
733. # [14:45] * zcorpan has reloaded the page to see all taglines :)
734. # [14:45] <krijnh> Really?
735. # [14:45] <krijnh> So that's why my server load is so high
736. # [14:45] <gDashiva> zcorpan: Are they sequential?
737. # [14:45] <krijnh> I'm on ADSL lite you know..
738. # [14:45] <zcorpan> gDashiva: think so
739. # [14:46] <krijnh> Are they?
740. # [14:46] <krijnh> Cool feature
741. # [14:46] <zcorpan> or maybe they aren't, don't remember
742. # [14:46] <krijnh> There are 30 of them, collect 'm all!
743. # [14:46] <gDashiva> krijnh: You should use semantic HTML to reduce download size
744. # [14:47] <krijnh> Where can I download that?
745. # [14:48] <gDashiva> Dunno
746. # [14:48] <Lachy> hmm, I never noticed the tag line thing before
747. # [14:48] <krijnh> Damn, it was developed especially for you! :(
748. # [14:48] <Lachy> though I never go to the index page, since i have direct links to the latest logs of each channel in my history
749. # [14:50] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/?gimme-a-hobby
750. # [14:50] <gDashiva> That's a lot of style
751. # [14:50] <Lachy> krijnh, are all these tag lines quotes from people on the maling list? Some of the sound familiar
752. # [14:51] <zcorpan> krijnh: now make the tagline link to that
753. # [14:52] <krijnh> Lachy: Some of them are
754. # [14:52] <krijnh> I just thought it was funny
755. # [14:52] <krijnh> And wasting time is one of the main reasons I joined the HTML WG (in retrospect), so why not :)
756. # [14:53] <Lachy> krijnh, can you add an API for others to add new tag lines?
757. # [14:53] <Lachy> maybe if we type a message beginning with "tag:", it could be added to your list
758. # [14:53] <krijnh> Yeah, just pm me
759. # [14:54] <zcorpan> tag: [off] will this show up?
760. # [14:54] <krijnh> Yes
761. # [14:54] <krijnh> It's only hidden in #webapps
762. # [14:55] <zcorpan> if i write that in #webapps?
763. # [14:55] <zcorpan> or is the tag: feature only for #whatwg?
764. # [14:55] <krijnh> It's no feature
765. # [14:55] <krijnh> It's a made up thing by Lachy :)
766. # [14:55] <zcorpan> bug?
767. # [14:55] <zcorpan> well you must implement it!
768. # [14:56] <zcorpan> or i won't use your logs
769. # [14:56] * zcorpan invites zakim
770. # [14:57] <krijnh> :'(
771. # [14:57] * krijnh tries to come with something similar for Opera..
772. # [14:58] <zcorpan> but you can't because opera has all features between the earth and the sun :)
773. # [14:59] <krijnh> Indeed
774. # [15:00] <Lachy> krijnh, has the [off] feature been used in #webapps at all for a legitimate purpose since the logs were officially activated?
775. # [15:01] <krijnh> You shouldn't ask that question :)
776. # [15:01] <krijnh> I think you know the answer already
777. # [15:01] <Lachy> I actually don't. Though I could check my own logs, I guess
778. # [15:02] <zcorpan> if you find something, could you quote it here? :P
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780. # [15:03] <krijnh> Cool, it has been
781. # [15:03] <gDashiva> Lachy: It was used earlier today, by arve :)
782. # [15:03] <Lachy> one said "[off] *sigh*"
783. # [15:03] <krijnh> By an Opera employee :)
784. # [15:04] <zcorpan> me?
785. # [15:04] <krijnh> ARve
786. # [15:05] <Lachy> I wouldn't really count that as legitimate use of it though, since it was designed to hide confidential information
787. # [15:06] <krijnh> Jep
788. # [15:07] <gDashiva> Have there been any more cases of 'oops, we are in a different channel' since that one time?
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799. # [16:16] <virtuelv> well, my sigh from earlier today was hardly relevant to what I was getting at
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805. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: what should I put into alt in the Image Report under the new spec text? alt="{image}"? That seems daft.
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809. # [16:44] <Lachy> hsivonen, alt={} might be reasonable for your case
810. # [16:45] <zcorpan> jgraham: your outline tester doesn't work with entities
811. # [16:45] <Lachy> is this for images from the website being validated, that are listed in image report table??
812. # [16:46] <zcorpan> jgraham: other than the 5 xml entities
813. # [16:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
814. # [16:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "An image in an e-mail or document intended for a specific person who is known to be able to view images" still says alt may be omitted
815. # [16:51] <Lachy> I asked why that is still in the spec, but Hixie seemed to miss that question when he responded to my mail
816. # [16:51] <Lachy> I don't see why emails should be treated differently now that there's the {...} syntax
817. # [16:52] <Lachy> they could just use alt={} or some auto generated thing like alt="{attached image}"
818. # [16:57] <hsivonen> my crystal ball tells me that alt='{attached image}' will be in the UI language of the sender--not in the language of the message
819. # [16:57] <hsivonen> in practice that is
820. # [16:58] <Lachy> in practice, my UI language is the language I write in. So then I guess alt={} would be better, since it allows the recipient to be told in whatever langauge they use
821. # [17:01] <Lachy> Hixie, please respond to the last question at the end of this mail http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0090.html
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823. # [17:12] <takkaria> hehe, request on the libxml2 mailing list for libxml2 to silently ignore NUL bytes in XML rather than error on it
824. # [17:13] <gsnedders> That's against the spec1111!11!!
825. # [17:13] <hsivonen> takkaria: database dump use case?
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827. # [17:18] <takkaria> hsivonen: no idea for the use case, just someone complaining that libxml2 errors
828. # [17:18] <takkaria> I have this sneaking suspicion that they may end up putting an input layer before libxml2 that silently ignores NULs
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893. # [18:02] <gDashiva> I wonder if anyone will ever suggest [on], so you can do like We don't want to give up our [off] secrets [on] to people like you!
894. # [18:02] <takkaria> [off] does this not get logged then?
895. # [18:02] <gDashiva> In here it does
896. # [18:02] <gDashiva> But #webapps has special treatment
897. # [18:03] <takkaria> ah
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899. # [18:07] <Lachy> heh, [off] is getting more use in here where it doesn't work, than it is in #webapps :-)
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911. # [18:07] <zcorpan> [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off] [off]
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952. # [18:10] <gDashiva> 4whoa
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955. # [18:10] <jcranmer> stress testing?
956. # [18:10] <gDashiva> Netsplit maybe
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958. # [18:11] <jcranmer> 11:54 -!- Netsplit brown.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits:
959. # [18:11] <jcranmer> but that doesn't explain zcorpan's comment (AFAIK)
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961. # [18:12] * zcorpan updates http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_is_the_namespace_declaration.3F to match the spec
962. # [18:12] <zcorpan> but it doesn't talk about foreign lands
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964. # [18:13] <zcorpan> [off] has the feature in here to make random people disconnect
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978. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: for no-num and no-toc, for header, should they be on the header element, or on the first highest h1–h6?
979. # [19:06] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La35e.l.pppool.de)
980. # [19:08] * zcorpan thinks Hixie is making an experiment with alt to see if accessibility experts are actually reading the spec or if they'll go "yep the spec is fine now that alt is always required"
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989. # [19:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://validator.whatwg.org/ has the old name in the link text
990. # [19:36] * jacobolus1 is now known as jacobolus
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1014. # [21:09] <davidmccabe> Hixie: Hello. I'm considering writing up a proposal for drag-and-drop between browser windows. And I'm told you're the guy to talk to.
1015. # [21:09] <davidmccabe> I didn't find anything with google, but I thought I'd ask whether this has been proposed before to anyone's recollection.
1016. # [21:12] <davidmccabe> To summarize what I'm imagining: You would be able to set certain properties on DOM elements that make them draggable or droppable, and a javascript object would be passed from one window to the other when a drop is completed.
1017. # [21:12] <davidmccabe> The protocol could be modeled after those in Cocoa for instance.
1018. # [21:15] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1019. # [21:24] <roc_> HTML5 has a drag-drop spec
1020. # [21:24] <roc_> take a look
1021. # [21:24] * roc_ is now known as roc
1022. # [21:25] <roc> you can't pass JS objects as drag data (that would present some problems), but you can pass strings
1023. # [21:29] <davidmccabe> Hah.
1024. # [21:29] <davidmccabe> I grepped the spec; how did I miss it?
1025. # [21:31] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1026. # [21:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: alt="{image from site}" maybe, or alt="{small image}" vs alt="{large image}", or some other categorising information that actually showing the image would convey (like size, transparency, colour) but that you would never actually write next to the image if the image was visible
1027. # [21:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: old name of what?
1028. # [21:32] <Hixie> davidmccabe: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dnd
1029. # [21:33] <davidmccabe> Found it; sorry to bother you.
1030. # [21:33] <Lachy> this is weird, there seems to be a distinct lack of excitement over the upcoming olympic games ceremony in this country. I thought people here would be much more excited, but so far I've only heard from people who aren't that interested in seeing it
1031. # [21:33] <Hixie> np
1032. # [21:33] <Dashiva> Lachy: What country?
1033. # [21:33] <Lachy> Norway
1034. # [21:33] <Lachy> where I'm stuck living for now
1035. # [21:34] <Dashiva> Well, that's easy. Norway is all about winter olympics :)
1036. # [21:34] * gsnedders is in Sweden
1037. # [21:34] <Lachy> wtf? who cares about the winter olympics?!
1038. # [21:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: Me!
1039. # [21:34] <Dashiva> Norway does
1040. # [21:34] <gsnedders> They're better than the summer ones!
1041. # [21:34] <Lachy> it's not as if Australians are going to win many medals at that one
1042. # [21:34] <gsnedders> The skeleton takes _real_ bravery
1043. # [21:34] <Dashiva> Lachy: Take your situation and reverse it to get Norway :P
1044. # [21:35] <Lachy> but we're champions in the pool, so I've gotta make sure I see those events
1045. # [21:35] <Lachy> especially the 1500
1046. # [21:35] <Lachy> I hope Hackett wins that one again
1047. # [21:35] <Dashiva> Norway gets like a bronze in archery and a silver in solo rowing if we're lucky
1048. # [21:35] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
1049. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Dashiva: You're from Norway? Ah.
1050. # [21:36] <wilhelm> There is a summer olymptics too? (c:
1051. # [21:36] <Lachy> wilhelm, yes!
1052. # [21:36] * gsnedders knew you were from Scandinavia
1053. # [21:42] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-160-166.dsl.telstraclear.net)
1054. # [21:43] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
1055. # [21:45] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Yes
1056. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: Answer me! ("for no-num and no-toc, for header, should they be on the header element, or on the first highest h1–h6?")
1057. # [21:48] <Hixie> oops, missed your question!
1058. # [21:48] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
1059. # [21:49] <Hixie> you mean where should you look for it?
1060. # [21:49] <Hixie> i'd say h1-h6 element
1061. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah
1062. # [21:49] <Hixie> for compat with bert's
1063. # [21:49] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-170-33.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1064. # [21:49] <Hixie> or just assume it for header descendants
1065. # [21:49] <Hixie> and don't look
1066. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: Nothing that uses Bert's uses <header> though, so it isn't really a compat issue
1067. # [21:49] <Hixie> it might become one if people migrate back :-)
1068. # [21:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: They won't!
1069. # [21:50] * gsnedders grabs knive
1070. # [21:50] <Hixie> hah
1071. # [21:50] <gsnedders> *knife
1072. # [21:50] <Hixie> oh something came up in the public-html list that i was going to ask you to add to the specgen
1073. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, it'd be useful to know what :)
1074. # [21:51] <Hixie> yeah i'm trying to work out how to phrase it
1075. # [21:52] <Lachy> gsnedders, adding "Note: ", "Warning: " and "**" to notes, warnings and issues
1076. # [21:53] <Lachy> replacing the current stylesheet approach
1077. # [21:53] <Lachy> that uses ::before and ::after
1078. # [21:53] <Hixie> basically yeah, but i have a specific markup style i'd like :-)
1079. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: Email, plz.
1080. # [21:54] * Lachy suggests <strong class="ch.hixie.whatwg.spec.issue-marker">**</strong> :-)
1081. # [21:54] <Hixie> ok
1082. # [21:54] <gsnedders> (I'll probably lose it in IRC)
1083. # [21:54] <Hixie> e-mail addr?
1084. # [21:55] <gsnedders> geoffers@gmail.com
1085. # [21:55] <takkaria> Lachy: not org.whatwg.spec.issue-marker?
1086. # [21:56] <Lachy> takkaria, I intentionally avoided using whatwg.org cause that would have been too obvious and not long enough
1087. # [21:56] <Lachy> gotta make sure it's globally unique
1088. # [21:57] <gsnedders> and it would conflict between w3c.org and whatwg.org
1089. # [21:57] <Hixie> yeah, i mean, you all have authority over whatwg.org too!
1090. # [21:57] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
1091. # [21:57] <takkaria> hmm, maybe ch.hixie.whatwg.spec.html5.issue-marker, then? :P
1092. # [21:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: and power. Don't forget the power.
1093. # [21:57] <Hixie> none of us have any pwoer sadly
1094. # [21:58] <Lachy> takkaria, right. I forgot we needed to distinguish between webforms2 and webcontrols1
1095. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Oh, there are multiple defs of single terms in WF2
1096. # [22:05] <Hixie> gsnedders: you have mail
1097. # [22:05] <Hixie> don't worry abotu wf2
1098. # [22:06] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La35e.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
1099. # [22:06] <gsnedders> That's why I didn't mention it before :)
1100. # [22:06] <Hixie> :-)
1101. # [22:07] <gsnedders> That should be doable
1102. # [22:07] * gsnedders shoves that into the 1.1 list
1103. # [22:07] <gsnedders> (1.0 is, for all intents and purposes, feature frozen)
1104. # [22:08] <takkaria> Hixie: after WF2 is integrated and the form stuff is specced, HTML5 is actually pretty much feature complete isn't it?
1105. # [22:08] <Hixie> pretty much
1106. # [22:08] <Hixie> rendering section and aria are still missing
1107. # [22:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fdf354b0bc9a8ac3)
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1111. # [22:24] * gsnedders hopes he hasn't missed anyone out from the ack section of the spec-gen docs
1112. # [22:25] <gsnedders> "Andrew Sidwell, Anne van Kesteren, Henri Sivonen, Ian Hickson, James Graham, Lachlan Hunt, Magnus Kristiansen, Michael(tm) Smith, and Philip Taylor" + special thanks to Bert
1113. # [22:30] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-160-166.dsl.telstraclear.net)
1114. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Anyone think they should be in that list, do bully me
1115. # [22:37] <gsnedders> I also think I ought to stop hotlinking the whatwg style sheet ;P
1116. # [22:37] <Hixie> why?
1117. # [22:37] <Hixie> :-)
1118. # [22:37] <takkaria> gsnedders: I have no idea why I'm in there, but fair enough. :)
1119. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: So the docs work without an internet connection
1120. # [22:40] <Hixie> ah
1121. # [22:40] <Hixie> well
1122. # [22:40] <Hixie> details
1123. # [22:40] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com)
1124. # [22:41] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
1125. # [22:42] <gsnedders> takkaria: I was doing it from memory, and I think you've been at least as helpful as Dashiva :)
1126. # [22:44] <virtuelv> does anyone know anything about http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ ?
1127. # [22:46] <hasather_> virtuelv: takkaria I think :)
1128. # [22:46] * hasather_ is now known as hasather
1129. # [22:46] <Dashiva> gsnedders: I don't even recall being helpful
1130. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Helpful by stopping me from getting bored :)
1131. # [22:47] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1132. # [22:47] <Dashiva> So the bar for getting credit is pretty low then :)
1133. # [22:48] <takkaria> Rob Burns might also qualify
1134. # [22:49] <gsnedders> takkaria: he doesn't make me laugh, though
1135. # [22:50] <gsnedders> http://spec-gen.gsnedders.com/ — a website!
1136. # [22:51] <virtuelv> gsnedders: does that do all of what the css3 module post-processor does?
1137. # [22:52] <gsnedders> virtuelv: No. It does most of what people use, though. All of what Hixie uses, for example.
1138. # [22:52] * virtuelv checks out a copy
1139. # [22:53] <gsnedders> virtuelv: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen — examples
1140. # [22:53] <takkaria> gsnedders: the link to w3.org in section 3 is preceded by a ">"
1141. # [22:53] <gsnedders> takkaria: in the docs?
1142. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah
1143. # [22:55] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fdf354b0bc9a8ac3)
1144. # [22:58] <gsnedders> takkaria: fixed
1145. # [23:00] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
1146. # [23:01] * uriel_ is now known as uriel
1147. # [23:03] <Hixie> is there any way to create a DOM Document object in IE that doesn't involve an HTML parser?
1148. # [23:04] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-c2b296b3012a6e0c)
1149. # [23:05] <Hixie> w(new ActiveXObject("Msxml.DOMDocument").readyState);
1150. # [23:05] <Hixie> ...returns 4.
1151. # [23:05] <Hixie> wtf.
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1156. # [23:25] <Hixie> should we rename "irrelevant" to "hidden"? It's what we have on <command> for the same basic semantic...
1157. # [23:25] <Hixie> but I don't want people to just use it to hide things, it's more subtle than that...
1158. # [23:25] <Hixie> though i guess nobody will understand the subtleness...
1159. # [23:25] <Hixie> hmm.
1160. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: irrelevant, plz.
1161. # [23:26] <gsnedders> :P
1162. # [23:26] <Hixie> it's harder to type, and people don't get it
1163. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: then @useless?
1164. # [23:27] <Lachy> Hixie, hidden is better
1165. # [23:27] <Hixie> ooh, that's not a bad name
1166. # [23:27] <Lachy> or ignore=""
1167. # [23:28] <Hixie> it would be ignored="" but yeah, that might work too
1168. # [23:28] <Hixie> one example of something for which i think this attribute isn't appropriate is hiding one panel of a tabbed panel in a dialog when another panel is active
1169. # [23:29] <Hixie> because the fact that the controls are tabbed isn't intrinsic to the dialog, it's just a presentation
1170. # [23:29] <Lachy> it might be a little unintuitive for e.g. <script ignored="">, since AIUI, the script would still execute.
1171. # [23:30] <webben> Hixie: inactive or ignore would be better than irrelevant or hidden.
1172. # [23:30] <webben> irrelevant is just confusing; hidden is confusing presentational
1173. # [23:30] <webben> *confusingly
1174. # [23:30] * gsnedders waves g'nite
1175. # [23:31] <webben> IIRC someone was arguing re inactive that people would misspell it.
1176. # [23:31] <Lachy> whatever you choose, change hidden="" for command to be the same
1177. # [23:31] <Lachy> or just drop hidden from command, and let it use the global attribute
1178. # [23:32] <jgraham> inactive is good hidden and ignore is bad
1179. # [23:32] <Lachy> why is ignore bad?
1180. # [23:32] <webben> Lachy: because parsers shouldn't ignore the markup for instance
1181. # [23:32] <webben> and because events can still be fired for it (IIRC)
1182. # [23:32] <jgraham> ignore sounds too mch like "don't look at the man behind the curtian"
1183. # [23:33] <jgraham> If it should be ignored why is it there?
1184. # [23:33] <Lachy> webben, so? That's why we're not calling it dont-parse=""
1185. # [23:33] <jgraham> Whereas inactive seems like a good description of the semantic
1186. # [23:34] <Lachy> inactive might work
1187. # [23:35] <webben> hmm on the other hand "Elements in a section hidden by the irrelevant attribute are still active, e.g. scripts and form controls in such sections still render execute and submit respectively"
1188. # [23:35] <webben> note "active"
1189. # [23:36] <webben> from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-irrelevant
1190. # [23:40] <Lachy> Hixie, the new spec update system has already proven much more useful than twitter
1191. # [23:40] <Lachy> I tend to ignore most twitter messages, so I rarely saw the whatwg ones
1192. # [23:41] * Lachy goes to stop following whatwg twitts
1193. # [23:45] <Hixie> inactive is too much like "disabled"
1194. # [23:46] <Hixie> Lachy: cool, glad to hear it!
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1197. # [23:52] <Lachy> Hixie, so Web Controls is now officially dead?
1198. # [23:52] <Lachy> I was wondering what was going to happen with it
1199. # [23:53] <Hixie> it's not officially anything
1200. # [23:53] <Hixie> i don't know what will happen to it
1201. # [23:53] * Joins: sverrej_ (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
1202. # [23:53] <Hixie> certainly ARIA has somewhat addressed one of the big use cases for web controls 1.0
1203. # [23:53] <Hixie> though imho in a less good way, but that's another story
1204. # [23:54] <Hixie> i think i'm gonna drop autosubmit from <menu>
1205. # [23:54] <Hixie> it doesn't seem to have a compelling use
1206. # [23:55] <Lachy> what was it designed for originally?
1207. # [23:55] <Hixie> i'm not sure
1208. # [23:57] <Lachy> oh, it was designed for menus made with <select> that automatically submit, which is commonly done with JavaScript
1209. # [23:57] <Lachy> I think
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1211. # [23:57] <Hixie> that's what i thought but the way it was defined only affected radio and checkbox inputs, and the example in the source that used autosubmit with a <Select> had JS that woudl take care of the submission anyway for legacy UAs
1212. # [23:57] <Hixie> so..
1213. # [23:58] <Lachy> is the disabled-javascript case not worth considering?
1214. # [23:59] <Hixie> i don't think it's worth a whole extra attribute here
1215. # Session Close: Wed Aug 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)