/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> i guess the right exception is INVALID_ACCESS_ERR here
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> hough NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED_ERR, NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR and HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR are all tempting
  5. # [00:00] <zcorpan> log: Error: NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED_ERR: DOM Exception 7
  6. # [00:00] <zcorpan> webkit
  7. # [00:00] <Hixie> sounds good to me!
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> i never get to throw that one
  9. # [00:01] <zcorpan> hah
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> does IE throw for no prent node too?
  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> parent
  12. # [00:01] <zcorpan> no
  13. # [00:01] <Hixie> ok
  14. # [00:02] <zcorpan> neither does opera
  15. # [00:03] <annevk> is HIERARCHY not better? though maybe I don't care
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  18. # [00:04] <zcorpan> fwiw, ie throws if you try to set outerHTML on head or body too
  19. # [00:04] <zcorpan> or innerHTML on the root
  20. # [00:04] <zcorpan> but we don't align with ie very much for innerHTML
  21. # [00:05] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-bb4066c0958a66e1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  22. # [00:06] * zcorpan tests documentfragment
  23. # [00:09] <zcorpan> opera does the same thing as it does for document
  24. # [00:09] <zcorpan> webkit throws
  25. # [00:10] <zcorpan> ie does the same thing as it does for a normal element parent
  26. # [00:10] * zcorpan likes the ie approach
  27. # [00:10] <annevk> I hope I can make fixes and such to XHR / AC / Media Queries tomorrow
  28. # [00:11] <Hixie> don't break my dependency! :-P
  29. # [00:11] <annevk> I'll be off for the rest of the week and next week is the CSS WG meeting...
  30. # [00:11] <annevk> summer is slow anyways I suppose
  31. # [00:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: please let me know if you see the taint mode message with bugzilla.validator.nu.
  32. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh, let me know how the csswg meeting goes
  33. # [00:11] * annevk looks for the depedency
  34. # [00:11] <Hixie> i use NETWORK_ERR
  35. # [00:11] <jacobolus> what does the CSS WG plan to do at their meeting?
  36. # [00:11] <jacobolus> maybe figure out hypenation? ;)
  37. # [00:12] <jacobolus> erm, hyphenation
  38. # [00:12] <hsivonen> the message shows up only on certain bugs but not on others. very weird.
  39. # [00:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: sure, whenever i find another bug :)
  40. # [00:12] <annevk> Hixie, I was sort of intrigued by your hijacking of 19, should NETWORK_ERR & ABORT_ERR use 20 and 21 instead?
  41. # [00:12] <Hixie> sounds good to me
  42. # [00:12] <Hixie> i just used 19 because it was the first free one after 18
  43. # [00:13] <annevk> right
  44. # [00:13] <Hixie> and i hijacked 18 cos it was the first free one after 17
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  46. # [00:13] <Hixie> i updated the wiki exception codes page
  47. # [00:13] <jacobolus> annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#hyphenate has said since the beginning of march: “The WG plans to discuss it at our next face-to-face meeting at the end of March.”
  48. # [00:13] <Hixie> as far as i'm concerned, that's normative http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Exception_Codes :-)
  49. # [00:13] <annevk> I see
  50. # [00:14] <jacobolus> (actually, since march 2007!)
  51. # [00:14] <annevk> jacobolus, heh, hyphenation is difficult and the editors are working on some other stuff too, iirc
  52. # [00:14] <Hixie> the csswg is so dysfunctional
  53. # [00:14] <Hixie> they try to do everything by consensus
  54. # [00:14] <Hixie> and the keep reopening old issues
  55. # [00:15] <Hixie> etc
  56. # [00:15] <zcorpan> why change the NETWORK_ERR and ABORT_ERR codes now?
  57. # [00:15] <zcorpan> (are they implemented?)
  58. # [00:15] <Hixie> if they are we shouldn't change them
  59. # [00:15] <Hixie> it's not a big deal
  60. # [00:15] <jacobolus> if hyphenation worked in browsers (or even just webkit/gecko), the web would be so so so much nicer
  61. # [00:15] <jacobolus> text could actually be justified
  62. # [00:15] <jacobolus> and not look like crap
  63. # [00:15] <jacobolus> s/be/look/
  64. # [00:15] <annevk> zcorpan, if WebKit ships with them we won't
  65. # [00:15] <Hixie> jacobolus: there are some issues that i would consider to be a much higher priority that are languishing as much :-)
  66. # [00:16] <annevk> zcorpan, if WebKit doesn't it seems better to change them for consistency as 101 and 102 are sort of out of the blue
  67. # [00:16] <Hixie> e.g. getting a decent box model for ui
  68. # [00:16] <zcorpan> annevk: L&S was before, no?
  69. # [00:16] <annevk> yeah, UI, transitions, gradients, etc., menus maybe
  70. # [00:16] <annevk> zcorpan, well, that spec should really be killed
  71. # [00:16] <jacobolus> Hixie: sure. i'm self-interested, in that I want to be able to use Webkit for my own experiments w/ trying to make tools for my personal use for reading long documents on a screen. but still :)
  72. # [00:16] * zcorpan doesn't really care
  73. # [00:17] <annevk> zcorpan, nobody really cares, but we should try to minimize confusion :)
  74. # [00:25] <annevk> why won't outerHTML work for XML btw? there's no extra problems there, right?
  75. # [00:25] <Hixie> trying to keep the damage to a minimum
  76. # [00:25] <annevk> i guess you need to do the isHTML check anyway
  77. # [00:26] <annevk> btw, for documentElement.outerHTML, wouldn't documentElement.parentNode.replaceChild(...) do the trick?
  78. # [00:26] <Hixie> the fragment parsing algorithm doesn't handle the root element
  79. # [00:27] <Hixie> you'd have to have a whole other separate codepath for it
  80. # [00:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: what are you going to do with documentFragment?
  81. # [00:27] <annevk> Hixie, ok, fair enough
  82. # [00:27] <Hixie> zcorpan: ?
  83. # [00:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: when the parentNode is a document fragment
  84. # [00:28] <Hixie> oh
  85. # [00:29] <Hixie> uh
  86. # [00:29] <Hixie> i guess we pretend the document element is a <body>
  87. # [00:30] <zcorpan> <zcorpan> opera does the same thing as it does for document
  88. # [00:30] <zcorpan> <zcorpan> webkit throws
  89. # [00:30] <zcorpan> <zcorpan> ie does the same thing as it does for a normal element parent
  90. # [00:30] <zcorpan> * zcorpan likes the ie approach
  91. # [00:30] <Hixie> right
  92. # [00:31] <Hixie> so i guess we pretend the document element is a <body>
  93. # [00:31] <Hixie> er, s/document element/context element/
  94. # [00:31] <Hixie> matches IE
  95. # [00:31] <Hixie> right?
  96. # [00:31] <zcorpan> yep
  97. # [00:31] <Hixie> eeeeeexcellent
  98. # [00:31] <Hixie> good catch, i totally flaked on that and didn't even think to ask what you mean above
  99. # [00:31] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  100. # [00:32] <Hixie> meant
  101. # [00:36] * Hixie next looks at insertAdjacentHTML() and shudders
  102. # [00:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: shouldn't execCommand('insertHTML') throw in an xml context?
  103. # [00:38] <annevk> Hixie, how about URL_MISMATCH_ERR becoming 21 and I get 19 and 20 so XHR can define 18-20?
  104. # [00:38] <Hixie> annevk: 18 is going into DOM Core eventually
  105. # [00:39] <Hixie> annevk: i thought webkit implemented 101 102?
  106. # [00:39] <annevk> Hixie, weinig says this is ok for WebKit
  107. # [00:39] <weinig> Hixie: I don't see it as a real compatibility issue
  108. # [00:39] <Hixie> well if you really want to change it then sure *shrug*
  109. # [00:39] <annevk> Hixie, I think NETWORK and ABORT can go into DOM Core as well eventually
  110. # [00:39] <Hixie> feel free to pick whatever numbers you want
  111. # [00:39] <Hixie> update the wiki and i'll adjust as necessary
  112. # [00:39] <annevk> ok
  113. # [00:39] <Hixie> zcorpan: maybe
  114. # [00:40] * annevk was just about to offer to edit the wiki
  115. # [00:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: it doesn't use XML, though
  116. # [00:40] <weinig> Hixie: I will change it tonight and see if stuff breaks
  117. # [00:40] <weinig> call it a trial run
  118. # [00:40] <Hixie> k
  119. # [00:40] * weinig implemented a dumb version of insertAdjacentHTML recently
  120. # [00:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: otherwise you can inject "malformed" stuff in xml that is so carefully avoided in the rest of the dom
  121. # [00:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: *shrug*
  122. # [00:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: think of it as an editing api
  123. # [00:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: where the user types html without knowing the underlying dom is xml
  124. # [00:48] * annevk changed a few normative numbers around :p
  125. # [00:51] <weinig> annevk: one big reason I am not concerned is that I don't think those numbers match IE, do they?
  126. # [00:51] <Hixie> IE doesn't throw DOMException objects
  127. # [00:52] <weinig> Hixie: good point
  128. # [00:52] * weinig remembers that discussion fondly now :p
  129. # [00:52] <annevk> you mean the one in Seattle? ...
  130. # [00:52] <weinig> annevk: yes
  131. # [00:53] <annevk> yeah...
  132. # [00:53] <weinig> annevk: is there any reason for non same origin request to not make upload notifications?
  133. # [00:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: "http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg":7099.29-7100.28: info warning: Element name "dfnode" cannot be represented as XML 1.0.
  134. # [00:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: seems that error message is bogus (the element name is unknown for sure, but it's fine in xml)
  135. # [00:55] <annevk> weinig, I suppose at that point the preflight check already happened and it's ok
  136. # [00:56] <weinig> annevk: ok, good
  137. # [00:56] <annevk> weinig, even better, now we dropped the PI the same might go for readyState == 2
  138. # [00:56] * weinig nods
  139. # [00:57] * weinig eek, I think webkit already does that
  140. # [00:57] * weinig did not read close enough
  141. # [00:58] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  142. # [00:58] <zcorpan> nn
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  145. # [00:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: just one thing: "Note: These are the only ways to make a DOM unserializable." is false given execCommand('insertHTML') :P
  146. # [01:00] <annevk> weinig, given that there's no processing instruction I don't think you're in much trouble
  147. # [01:00] <Hixie> zcorpan: hmm
  148. # [01:00] <Hixie> zcorpan: send mail, something just came up here and i have to run
  149. # [01:00] <annevk> weinig, I'm writing an XMLHttpRequest Level 2 comment e-mail now to remind myself to fix this
  150. # [01:00] <Hixie> zcorpan: but thanks!
  151. # [01:00] <Hixie> a lot :-)
  152. # [01:01] <zcorpan> i'll file a bug
  153. # [01:01] <Hixie> cool
  154. # [01:01] * Hixie goes
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  156. # [01:06] <annevk> roc, "which probably tells people immediately that I'm an annoying freak, but I think it's good to be open about that." :p
  157. # [01:22] <annevk> does anyone know what i7 stands for in the new Intel product line?
  158. # [01:22] <annevk> (press release doesn't say)
  159. # [01:27] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  160. # [01:27] <weinig> annevk: nice
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  185. # [03:53] <takkaria> if anyone has an example of a page which ends up needing to be reparsed because of html5's charset algorithm when a meta tag is encountered, I'd very much appreciate a pointer to it
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  192. # [04:11] <Hixie> takkaria: <script>alert('A');</script><!-- xx megabytes xx --><meta charset="C">
  193. # [04:11] <Hixie> takkaria: where A is a byte that is interpreted differently in two encodings
  194. # [04:11] <Hixie> and C is the one of those encodings that isn't hte one the browser picks by default
  195. # [04:11] <takkaria> ah, I get you. I thought it might be mostly to do with scripting
  196. # [04:11] <Hixie> doesn't have to be scripting
  197. # [04:11] <Hixie> could be: A<!-- xx megabytes xx --><meta charset="C">
  198. # [04:12] <Hixie> it's just more obvious with an alert() because then you get to see that it shows up twice
  199. # [04:12] <takkaria> right! got you, thanks
  200. # [04:12] <Hixie> np
  201. # [04:13] <takkaria> there is a web browser equipped with the HTML5 parsing algorithm now, though it's not got scripting so isn't the most useful browser for testing all the bits that require scripting :)
  202. # [04:13] <Hixie> :-)
  203. # [04:13] <Hixie> is scripting on the agenda?
  204. # [04:14] <takkaria> at some point in the future, I believe, but nothing very soon
  205. # [04:14] <Hixie> k
  206. # [04:14] <takkaria> otoh, I expect there'll be useful feedback from users of NetSurf when pages break
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  227. # [06:58] <Hixie> sweet
  228. # [06:58] <Hixie> in IE you can insert multiple nodes into the document (adjacent to the root element) using insertAdjacentHTML()
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  230. # [07:01] <Hixie> and iAH() doesn't work with table bits in IE
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  233. # [07:30] <Hixie> anyone got an old version of IE? like IE7 or IE6?
  234. # [07:30] <Hixie> i'd like http://junkyard.damowmow.com/336 tested with one of those
  235. # [07:31] <krijnh> 024578A9 (IE6)
  236. # [07:31] <Hixie> thanks
  237. # [07:31] <krijnh> 021453786A9 (IE5.5)
  238. # [07:31] <Hixie> wow, cool, thanks
  239. # [07:32] <krijnh> Run with IETester..
  240. # [07:32] <Hixie> IETester?
  241. # [07:32] <krijnh> http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
  242. # [07:32] <Hixie> neat
  243. # [07:33] <krijnh> No idea if it's reliable :)
  244. # [07:33] <Hixie> yeah i was about to say, i wonder if that's reliable with javascript: and iframes
  245. # [07:34] <krijnh> It's the only way for me to get some different versions of IE running on Vista
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  253. # [08:29] <aboodman2> Hixie: I keep wishing that support for conversations via MessageChannel was more built-in
  254. # [08:30] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  255. # [08:30] <aboodman2> like, when you get a message, you always get an object you can reply to the sender with. like it is built into the api.
  256. # [08:31] <aboodman2> It's just a little thing, but I was wondering if you could think of some way to make it work.
  257. # [08:31] <aboodman2> I keep wanting the sender to be able to do:
  258. # [08:31] <aboodman2> var port = worker(or iframe).sendMessage("foo");
  259. # [08:31] <aboodman2> and then the port represents the conversation
  260. # [08:32] <aboodman2> and on the other side, the worker (or iframe) could do globalObject.addEventListener("message", function(e) { e.port.sendMessage("reply") }, false)
  261. # [08:32] <Hixie> a port _is_ a conversation
  262. # [08:32] <aboodman2> right, i know
  263. # [08:32] <Hixie> if you want to split the conversation off, just send a port with the message
  264. # [08:33] <Hixie> and use that port for the subconversation
  265. # [08:33] <aboodman2> i know, it seems slightly less elegant for some reason to send the port as an argument
  266. # [08:33] <Hixie> i don't understand you example fragments
  267. # [08:33] <Hixie> your
  268. # [08:33] <aboodman2> one second
  269. # [08:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-207.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  270. # [08:41] <aboodman2> k, here is how it works now:
  271. # [08:41] <aboodman2> var channel = new MessageChannel();
  272. # [08:41] <aboodman2> var worker = createWorker("foo.js");
  273. # [08:41] <aboodman2> channel.port1.addEventListener("message", function(e) { ... }, false);
  274. # [08:41] <aboodman2> worker.sendMessage("init", channel.port2);
  275. # [08:41] <aboodman2> here is how I wish it would work
  276. # [08:41] <aboodman2> var worker = createWorker("foo.js");
  277. # [08:41] <aboodman2> var port = worker.sendMessage("init");
  278. # [08:41] <aboodman2> port.addEventListener("message", function(e) { ... }, false);
  279. # [08:42] <aboodman2> the worker code would look the same as it does now. e.port would contain a port that could talk back to the return value from sendMessage()
  280. # [08:43] <aboodman2> I do not know how to make this work with your goal of wanting to be able to send arbitrary ports though.
  281. # [08:43] * Hixie reads (sorry, had a cat petting emergency)
  282. # [08:45] <Hixie> note that |port.addEventListener("message", function(e) { ... }, false);| is better written as |port.onmessage = function (e) { ... };|
  283. # [08:45] <aboodman2> why?
  284. # [08:45] <aboodman2> because otherwise i need to call start()?
  285. # [08:45] <Hixie> it's shorter, and doesn't require calling start()
  286. # [08:45] <Hixie> but that's orthogonal
  287. # [08:46] <Hixie> i agree that it would be neat to have a method that creates a port and includes it
  288. # [08:46] <Hixie> and returns a matching port
  289. # [08:46] <Hixie> you would likely not want that to happen every time, creating a port is presumably not free
  290. # [08:47] <Hixie> btw, it's now worker.port.sendMessage(), since sicking wanted a separate Worker object returned from createWorker()
  291. # [08:47] <aboodman2> yeah.
  292. # [08:48] <Hixie> we could have port.postMessageWithNewChannel('message') which returns a port
  293. # [08:48] <Hixie> though that name sucks
  294. # [08:49] <aboodman2> it seems like it would be possible for implementations to know if the port is used and delay the hard work until then
  295. # [08:50] <Hixie> true
  296. # [08:50] <Hixie> maybe
  297. # [08:50] <aboodman2> another thing.
  298. # [08:50] <aboodman2> let's say you send port2 to a friend.
  299. # [08:51] <aboodman2> and then you start doing things like:
  300. # [08:51] <aboodman2> port2.onmessage = function(e) { alert('hi') }
  301. # [08:51] <aboodman2> that's totally nonsensical, right?
  302. # [08:52] <Hixie> yeah
  303. # [08:52] <Hixie> once you send port2, it'll never receive a message again
  304. # [08:55] <Hixie> so should i make postMessage() always create a new channel and send a port?
  305. # [08:55] <Hixie> seems expensive to me
  306. # [08:55] <Hixie> even if theoretically it could be optimised
  307. # [08:56] <aboodman2> no
  308. # [08:56] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  309. # [08:56] <aboodman2> I'm not sure about sicking but a lot of my feedback has been wrong based on not totally understanding what you were trying to do or what the spec proposed.
  310. # [08:57] <aboodman2> so i'm just registering the wish that conversations were more elegant because that is a real problem with gears (and postMessage) right now
  311. # [08:58] <aboodman2> but i don't have a concrete suggestion
  312. # [09:00] <Hixie> maybe port.startConversation('message'); which returns a port and sends a new port
  313. # [09:00] <aboodman2> yeah, i think something like that would be cool
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  317. # [09:38] <Hixie> aboodman2: ok, added startConversation()
  318. # [09:38] <aboodman2> don't do that
  319. # [09:39] <aboodman2> i was speaking theoretically
  320. # [09:39] <Hixie> you said it would be cool
  321. # [09:39] <Hixie> i agree
  322. # [09:40] <Hixie> man, you people need to stop telling me that things would be good ideas if you don't think they're good ideas
  323. # [09:40] <Hixie> anyway, it's in now, but easy to remove if we decide we don't want it
  324. # [09:40] <aboodman2> what was the expense you were thinking of to create a port?
  325. # [09:42] <Hixie> creating a port and sending it requires creating a MessageChannel and three MessagePorts instead of just creating the two ports already entangled in the right thread spaces
  326. # [09:43] <aboodman2> can you get from a port object to a channel?
  327. # [09:43] <Hixie> no
  328. # [09:43] <Hixie> a channel is basically just an array of two ports
  329. # [09:44] <aboodman2> right, so you just need to create the port to return
  330. # [09:44] <aboodman2> the port seems like it just wraps a unique integer
  331. # [09:44] <aboodman2> and then on the other side you have to create the other port, which can be done lazily
  332. # [09:44] <Hixie> right
  333. # [09:46] <Hixie> but without startConversation(), the author has to create a new messagechannel, then call postmessage, which creates a third port
  334. # [09:46] <Hixie> hence startConversation() is cheaper
  335. # [09:47] <Hixie> i wish sicking would send feedback
  336. # [09:47] <Hixie> he was all like "we have to have this done in 11 days or it's all over!" last week
  337. # [09:47] <Hixie> barely heard three e-mails out him since
  338. # [09:47] <Hixie> out of him
  339. # [09:48] * gavin__ is now known as gavin_
  340. # [09:48] <gavin_> he was at blackhat last week, fwiw
  341. # [09:49] <Hixie> yeah
  342. # [09:49] <Hixie> so? :-)
  343. # [09:49] <Hixie> i was off sick last week, didn't stop me from responding to all his mails :-)
  344. # [09:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-78.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  345. # [09:52] <gavin_> it's harder to be around a computer 24/7 at blackhat than it is when you're off sick :)
  346. # [09:53] <gavin_> casino security doesn't appreciate laptops at the blackjack tables
  347. # [09:53] <Hixie> i'm just saying'
  348. # [09:54] <Hixie> er, sayin'
  349. # [09:54] <Hixie> he was volunteering to edit it because it was so urgent
  350. # [09:54] <Hixie> presumably because i was a bottleneck
  351. # [09:54] <gavin_> yeah- did you emailhima bout it?
  352. # [09:55] <aboodman2> Hixie: it's pretty hard to digest these.
  353. # [09:55] <Hixie> aboodman2: hm?
  354. # [09:55] <gavin_> I think you'd get better results with that than with griping on IRC when he isn't her e:)
  355. # [09:55] <Hixie> i'm just ranting, i'm sure he's replying as fast as he can :-)
  356. # [09:56] <Hixie> i didn't e-mail him specifically to ask why he hadn't replied, i assumed he had good reasons :-)
  357. # [09:56] <Hixie> aboodman2: these what?
  358. # [10:02] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  359. # [10:02] <aboodman2> Hixie: specs
  360. # [10:03] <Hixie> sure
  361. # [10:03] <Hixie> i made a bunch of demos which hopefully help explain the worker model a bit
  362. # [10:03] <aboodman2> yes, they help a lot.
  363. # [10:06] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
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  372. # [10:50] <Lachy> I finally found a solution to allow me to stream olympics from NBCs website, even though I'm not in the USA! :-)
  373. # [10:51] <hendry> Lachy: which is? proxy? ?:)
  374. # [10:52] <Lachy> I forward all connections using ssh through my web server which is in the USA
  375. # [10:52] <Lachy> using: ssh -D 8080 -fN lachy.id.au - and then setting my setting the SOCKS proxy in my browser to localhost 8080
  376. # [10:53] <Lachy> http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-traffic-over-ssh/
  377. # [10:55] <gavin_> there are no australian sites that offer internet feeds of the ollympics?
  378. # [10:55] <gavin_> perhaps http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/ would work better?
  379. # [10:56] <gavin_> oh, I forgot you're in norway
  380. # [10:56] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  381. # [10:58] <Hixie> well my 1.5TB disk just started makin horrific noises
  382. # [10:58] <Hixie> so i guess it's time to get a drobo
  383. # [10:58] <hendry> Lachy: i'm IP restricted from BBC news covereage, even though I am in the UK http://www.flickr.com/photos/hendry/2753042810/
  384. # [11:00] <gavin_> I guess the broadcasters are forced to implement some sort of geographical restrictions
  385. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg is 404
  386. # [11:00] <hendry> gavin_: forced by "exclusive deals" and greed
  387. # [11:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, it's only not 404 while i'm running the gen script
  388. # [11:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: the markup just had <dfncode> or something along those lines
  389. # [11:01] <Hixie> no embedded nulls or anything
  390. # [11:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.123.168.23)
  391. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  392. # [11:06] <Lachy> gavin_, yahoo7.com.au/Olympics has streaming, but I need access to server in Australia that I can tunnel through. I would prefer that, cause that only requires flash. I had to install silverlight to watch NBC, and I wish I didn't
  393. # [11:06] <gavin_> no norwegian sites?
  394. # [11:07] * hendry is there is a flickr or youtube of short mp3 clips, so i can embed sound into my blog with (urg) flash (fall back to <audio> would be a plus)
  395. # [11:07] <Lachy> not that I know of. But even if they did, they would have norwegian commentary, not english
  396. # [11:07] <Lachy> there is also SOPCast, which has live streaming, but that only seems to have a chinese language stream
  397. # [11:08] <Lachy> and its windows only, so I can only run it in virtual machine
  398. # [11:10] <Hixie> ok, drobo purchased
  399. # [11:10] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0c4a4a1a01148281)
  400. # [11:10] <Hixie> i'm fed up of disks dying all the time, hopefully this will make it a non-issue
  401. # [11:10] <Lachy> Hixie, I was thinking about getting myself a drobo too
  402. # [11:11] <Hixie> they seem pretty sweet
  403. # [11:11] <Lachy> I don't have problem with disks dying, but I am running out of storage space, so I need an economical solution that is cheaper to setup than a RAID
  404. # [11:14] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  405. # [11:15] <Hixie> can't you just buy a new disk and add it to the usb bus?
  406. # [11:15] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  408. # [11:16] <hsivonen> my HFS+ filesystem holding my real-world test data and Time Machine backups just died
  409. # [11:16] * hsivonen wishes HFS+ were more robust
  410. # [11:16] <hsivonen> I guess next time I should put the real-world data on a disk image instead of stressing the catalog file of the concrete fs
  411. # [11:17] <Hixie> i made a point of not putting anything but my time machine backups on the time machine drive
  412. # [11:17] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
  413. # [11:17] <Lachy> I already have 2 external 1TB drives
  414. # [11:17] <Hixie> (that's the one that just started making weird high pitches screeching noises)
  415. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: probably a good idea
  416. # [11:17] <Hixie> (i just turned it off without checking if it was ok)
  417. # [11:18] <Hixie> (don't want to cause it to fail before i have something to replace it)
  418. # [11:18] <hsivonen> my Time Machine disk never fills up, because HFS+ dies first and I have to restart Time Machine history
  419. # [11:20] <Hixie> my 1.5TB disk was down to a few dozen GB
  420. # [11:20] <Hixie> but unrelated to that i've had hell getting it to work over the network
  421. # [11:21] <hsivonen> I have high hopes for zfs
  422. # [11:21] <Hixie> my disk failures have always sounded very hardware-related
  423. # [11:21] <Hixie> i had a dell laptop once whose motherboard had a bug that was actually destroying hard disks
  424. # [11:22] <Hixie> and my mac mini has had two disks die on it (both maxtor)
  425. # [11:22] <Hixie> (including this latest one)
  426. # [11:23] <Hixie> my plan once i have the drobo is to get spinrite and put it on an old pc i have lying around and see if i can get the dead maxtor 750GB disk and the potentially dead maxtor 1.5TB disk up and working again
  427. # [11:23] * gavin_ can't recall ever suffering from a hard drive failure
  428. # [11:23] <Hixie> and if so, use them as an external disk for my girlfriend's timemachine instead of going over the network
  429. # [11:24] <Hixie> anyway, bed time first
  430. # [11:25] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  431. # [11:25] <Hixie> btw anyone know why <script src=""> doesn't support javascript: URLs? (zcorpan sent mail late last year about it)
  432. # [11:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
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  434. # [11:28] <gavin_> does it not work in gecko?
  435. # [11:28] * gavin_ would expect it o
  436. # [11:29] <Hixie> it does nothing
  437. # [11:30] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cscript%20src%3D%22javascript%3Aalert(%27test%27)%3B%27test%27%22%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E
  438. # [11:31] <gavin_> well, "alert" isn't valid JS
  439. # [11:32] <gavin_> that reutns alert.toString()
  440. # [11:32] <gavin_> which would justredefine alert
  441. # [11:32] <gavin_> ...with invalid JS code
  442. # [11:32] <gavin_> nevermind
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  447. # [11:38] <webben> Hixie: Do you have a view on whether, if RDFa in XHTML becomes a Recommendation (currently it's CR), it would be conforming with HTML5 to use its elements and attributes in an XML document also using the new RDFa attributes, which are also in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-rdfa-syntax-20080620/ ) ?
  448. # [11:38] <webben> or are these drafts fundamentally incompatible?
  449. # [11:39] <Hixie> sorry i don't quite follow the question
  450. # [11:40] <webben> Hixie: I guess it boils down to: if some elements and attributes are placed into the HTML namespace by another W3C recommendation, can they be used in an XML document also using elements and attributes in the HTML namespace which are defined by HTML5?
  451. # [11:42] <webben> Would that break document conformance with HTML5, for instance?
  452. # [11:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm unable to reproduce the dtcode bug
  453. # [11:43] <annevk> webben, it would
  454. # [11:44] <webben> annevk: Would it break conformance in a different way than (for example) including some elements in a completely different namespace (I dunno, MusicML or something) would?
  455. # [11:45] <webben> annevk: i.e. would it have the same relationship to HTML5 as the XML documents include XHTML and MathML do to XHTML 1.0? http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#well-formed
  456. # [11:45] <webben> *as XML documents that include
  457. # [11:45] <hsivonen> webben: as implemented, they both get the same type of error message
  458. # [11:46] <hsivonen> interestingly, my "eRDF5" trial balloon got Warnocked, even though a couple of people had tried to stir discussion about RDFao
  459. # [11:46] <hsivonen> s/ao/a/
  460. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: oops. I can reproduce the dtcode thing now
  461. # [11:47] <hsivonen> will investigate
  462. # [11:48] <webben> hsivonen: Thanks.
  463. # [12:00] <mcarter> does anyone know what a browser is supposed to do when (in an xhr response) it receives data ending with a partial unicode character -- should it trigger a readystate 3 with only the last complete character?
  464. # [12:01] <annevk> it should simply try to decode it
  465. # [12:01] <annevk> the partial character will turn into U+FFFD
  466. # [12:02] <hsivonen> mcarter: do you mean really ending or the first buffer containing a partial character with potentially more data coming up?
  467. # [12:02] <mcarter> hsivonen, actually, I'm curious about both cases
  468. # [12:03] <annevk> same for both
  469. # [12:03] <Hixie> webben: it has the same conformance status as web forms 2 vs html4
  470. # [12:03] <Hixie> webben: using it would be conforming to the spec that makes up those attributes, but not to html5 proper
  471. # [12:03] <hsivonen> mcarter: if the stream ends, I'd do what annevk said. If the stream doesn't end, I'd hold onto the partial character expecting more data and behave as if that character hadn't yet been received as far as scripts go
  472. # [12:04] <webben> Hixie: That seems a reasonable answer. :) Thanks.
  473. # [12:04] <Hixie> webben: it doesn't matter what the namespace is, though
  474. # [12:04] <Hixie> webben: from the point of view of conformance
  475. # [12:04] <mcarter> annevk, how could the web work at all if it turned it into a U+FFFD character? sometimes unicode characters get split into two seperate packets, and half of the character might come through before the other half
  476. # [12:04] <webben> Hixie: okay
  477. # [12:05] <hsivonen> mcarter: that is, I'd expect the partial character stay inside the decoder and the decoder not outputting more data until it has at least one complete character to output
  478. # [12:05] <mcarter> hsivonen, that makes sense
  479. # [12:05] <Hixie> webben: i mean, the spec could say it's the xhtml namespace, or that it's the foobar namespace, html5 doesn't care, html5 just cares about "metadata elements" and "phrasing elements" and so on, the categories
  480. # [12:07] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-53908d478ba08c59)
  481. # [12:08] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think RDFa could be mostly harmless if it used full URIs instead of CURIEs and, therefore, didn't need to know the namespace mapping context at each node
  482. # [12:08] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  483. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I'm strongly opposed to importing any CURIE or other qnames-in-content stuff into HTML5
  484. # [12:09] <Hixie> RDFa would be mostly harmless in the same way that products in sky mall magazines are mostly harmless
  485. # [12:10] <Hixie> they're solving a problem that people think they have when they're stuck 30,000ft up for 12 hours, but when they get down to earth, they don't find it actually fits in with their workflow
  486. # [12:12] <Hixie> i should totally make a sky mall catalogue of web standards
  487. # [12:12] <annevk> :)
  488. # [12:14] <hsivonen> I'd be interested to know how RDFa ended up in the HTML WG charter
  489. # [12:15] <annevk> probably similar to how the word XForms ended up there
  490. # [12:16] <annevk> or ITS
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  492. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: dtcode issue fixed
  493. # [12:17] <Hixie> cool, what was it?
  494. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: no longer saying that <dtcode> cannot be mapped to XML
  495. # [12:18] <Hixie> right i mean what was the source of the bug? :-)
  496. # [12:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I had forgotten the NCName check and only checked for customness when name policy was allowing XML violations
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  507. # [12:40] <annevk> Hixie, insertAdjacentHTML is not an attribute
  508. # [12:40] <annevk> Hixie, the sentence outerHTML and insertAdjacentHTML attributes should probably say "members"
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  540. # [16:43] <zcorpan> i find it amusing that people have opinions about the <script src=javascript:'...'> thing
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  542. # [16:52] <annevk> maybe there was not enough e-mail
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  561. # [18:10] <zcorpan> firefox adds a playbackrate=1 attribute to <video> elements
  562. # [18:10] <takkaria> fun times
  563. # [18:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you mean in add the attribute to teh DOM even if absent from source?
  564. # [18:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
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  566. # [18:11] <zcorpan> if you have <video playbackrate=2> in source firefox still says it's 1
  567. # [18:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that sucks. is there a bug report already?
  568. # [18:11] <zcorpan> if you set video.playbackRate = 3 firefox updates the content attribute
  569. # [18:12] <zcorpan> dunno
  570. # [18:13] <hsivonen> not with the obvious word in description, at least
  571. # [18:14] <zcorpan> same with <audio>
  572. # [18:14] <hsivonen> I'll file a bug.
  573. # [18:15] <zcorpan> cool
  574. # [18:19] <hsivonen> aargh. my tokenizer loop has gone over 8000 byte codes again
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  576. # [18:24] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450115
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  597. # [20:18] <annevk> did @whatwg.org just get spam?
  598. # [20:19] <annevk> http://googlemobile.blogspot.com/2008/08/google-translate-now-for-iphone.html -_- instead of actually making a normal Web page that just works they add special trickery for the iPhone
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  638. # Session Close: Tue Aug 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)