/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:55] <rubys> anybody know the current implementation status of web sockets? A pointer to a webpage with this answer would be fine...
  10. # [01:01] <Hixie> i believe no browser implements it, but mcarter has a js-based shim implementation iirc
  11. # [01:02] <rubys> http://www.orbited.org/
  12. # [01:05] <rubys> That looks to be the one. Thanks! Two more (hopefully quick) questions. Is the video element compatbile with rtsp? Is there anything in HTML5 or related work that addresses video capture?
  13. # [01:06] <Hixie> <video> is intended to be compatible with any streaming protocol, though if there are any issues please do raise them and i'll try to address them
  14. # [01:07] <rubys> fair enough
  15. # [01:07] <Hixie> regarding video capture, do you mean streaming video from a camrea, or taking stills from a video stream?
  16. # [01:08] <rubys> Currently, there are plugins that do capturing and serving of video in a separate process. I have no idea whether there is anything in HTML5 which would enable this to be moved into the browser.
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  18. # [01:10] <roc> there is an old W3C draft that specifies <input type="file" device="camera"> or something like that
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  21. # [01:12] <Hixie> rubys: if you mean camera capture, then no, there currently isn't, though many people have requested it and i imagine that in due course (when browsers have implemented more of html5) it would be something we would want to add
  22. # [01:12] <rubys> thanks!
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  25. # [01:17] <roc> Hixie: Brad Lassey (I think) has been looking at doing camera integration using something like that W3C draft
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  28. # [01:20] <Hixie> roc: cool
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  120. # [01:30] <franksalim> rubys: like Hixie said, orbited has a js based shim implementation. kaazing has a flash/js shim that exposes the websocke api and tries to speak the wire protocol when flash is available
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  122. # [01:31] <franksalim> this would be a good time to point out that my words do not represent my friends or my employers :-p
  123. # [01:31] <franksalim> *websocket
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  125. # [01:56] <rubys> franksalim: thanks!
  126. # [02:02] <franksalim> rubys: np! feel free to pick my brain if you have any questions about that sort of thing
  127. # [02:04] <rubys> at the moment, I'm just relaying questions from somebody who is trying to decide if html5 is worth exploring. Having two sets of "shims' that allow you to get by until the browsers catch up is a good thing.
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  181. # [09:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  185. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
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  189. # [10:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: i assume you don't want ftp:// but https:// is ok?
  190. # [10:10] <hsivonen> https works
  191. # [10:10] <hsivonen> ftp not
  192. # [10:10] <hsivonen> I'm using Commons HttpClient
  193. # [10:13] <Hixie> right-o
  194. # [10:13] * Hixie updates his script and reruns it to filter out ftp://
  195. # [10:14] <BenMillard> publishing the progress of my collection isn't major enough to get into Mark Pilgrim's summary :( http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-3
  196. # [10:14] <Hixie> BenMillard: i don't think mark is reading the mailing list. however, you should feel free to publish your own blog post announcing it, i think that would be great actually
  197. # [10:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: so i am getting you 1,000,000 urls taken from an arbitrarily sized subset of google's index that represents what google thinks are the most important paegs (for some vague definition of "important" that really gets kinda hard to pin down when you're talking about such large samples)
  198. # [10:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: the random sample is biased as follows:
  199. # [10:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: i dropped all pages that we didn't determine were HTML when we fetched them
  200. # [10:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: i dropped all pages whose urls didn't start with "http"
  201. # [10:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: i dropped 80% of pages whose urls only had 3 "/" characters in them and whose urls' last character was a "/"
  202. # [10:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: and i only took one page per cluster of pages that seemed to consist a single "site"
  203. # [10:20] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  204. # [10:20] <BenMillard> Hixie, I made a little one on my own website the other day: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/08/midpoint
  205. # [10:21] <BenMillard> so I guess a WHATWG entry for my research would be redundant? although I would've liked a paragraph in Mark's entry :P
  206. # [10:22] <hsivonen> BenMillard: the JS live DOM didn't make it in last week, either.
  207. # [10:23] <hsivonen> BenMillard: it's a summary of spec checkins
  208. # [10:23] <hsivonen> BenMillard: but you can write a post yourself
  209. # [10:23] <hsivonen> (for people who subscribe to the blog in general instead of the markp-only feed)
  210. # [10:24] <BenMillard> ah, ok
  211. # [10:24] <Hixie> BenMillard: don't worry, he got some of my changes wrong anyway :-) (i added a comment to the blog entry correcting it, feel free to add a comment if you don't want to add a whole blog post)
  212. # [10:24] <BenMillard> Hixie, oh yeah, a comment is a good idea
  213. # [10:29] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226195036.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  214. # [10:29] <Hixie> man, backing up half a terabyte over USB 2.0 is not fast
  215. # [10:29] <BenMillard> I set my Name to be "Ben 'Cerbera' Millard" and each time a Preview I get a \ before each '. So, after a few previous I see "Ben \\\\'Cerbera\\\\' Millard". would be nice if that didn't happen
  216. # [10:29] <BenMillard> *a few previews
  217. # [10:30] <Hixie> probably a wordpress bug
  218. # [10:30] <Hixie> does wordpress use php?
  219. # [10:30] <Hixie> i've found php apps uniformly get ' escaping wrong
  220. # [10:30] <hsivonen> it does
  221. # [10:30] <Hixie> dunno why
  222. # [10:30] <BenMillard> yes, it does look like a magic quote time thing
  223. # [10:30] <BenMillard> *type (yikes, my typing is groggy this morning)
  224. # [10:30] <hsivonen> the magic quote thing is in the worst ideas ever category
  225. # [10:31] <BenMillard> I've made the comment but it hasn't appeared...there's no message but I *assume* it's in a moderation queue of some sort and hasn't been lost?
  226. # [10:31] <BenMillard> I used some HTML and some links
  227. # [10:31] <hsivonen> I'll check the queue
  228. # [10:32] <hsivonen> BenMillard: now approved
  229. # [10:33] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  230. # [10:33] <BenMillard> yay, thanks! for the IRC records, the comment is precisely here: http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-3#comment-26873
  231. # [10:33] <Hixie> http://%3cbr%3etyxynola.newmail.ru/_visits_26.html is a weird url
  232. # [10:33] <Hixie> but it seems to work in safari
  233. # [10:33] <Hixie> i don't understand
  234. # [10:34] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d970dbab0862655f)
  235. # [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: do you want these in lexical order or random order?
  236. # [10:34] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  237. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: random is better
  238. # [10:35] <hsivonen> either works
  239. # [10:35] <Hixie> i have them in random order
  240. # [10:35] <Hixie> so that works
  241. # [10:35] <Hixie> that url doesn't work in firefox
  242. # [10:35] <Hixie> and it gives a different page in IE than WebKit
  243. # [10:36] <Hixie> doesn't help that i can't speak russian
  244. # [10:36] <Hixie> opera doesn't like that url either
  245. # [10:36] <Hixie> oh well
  246. # [10:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  247. # [10:37] <Hixie> this URL list is 52MB uncompressed
  248. # [10:37] <Hixie> 20MB compressed
  249. # [10:40] <BenMillard> which flavour of compression?
  250. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I guess a URI list in random order doesn't have too much common substring locality apart from "http://www.", ".com" and ".html"
  251. # [10:44] <roc> sigh
  252. # [10:45] <hsivonen> roc: ?
  253. # [10:45] <Hixie> BenMillard: gzip
  254. # [10:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: surprisingly many sites don't have www., .com, and .html, too
  255. # [10:45] <roc> making the intrinsic size of an <iframe> depend on the layout of its container isn't really a good i dea
  256. # [10:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: sent e-mail
  257. # [10:46] <Hixie> um
  258. # [10:47] <Hixie> not sent
  259. # [10:47] <Hixie> my SMTP server said no to a 20MB attachment
  260. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: email now received. thanks
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  264. # [11:01] <gDashiva> Matt's reply to James strikes me as rather lacking
  265. # [11:02] <gDashiva> Making a painting is a lot more work than adding <img> to a HTML page, yet apparently making alternate text for a painting is infeasible
  266. # [11:02] <gDashiva> And uploading a video to youtube is limited by physical space?
  267. # [11:04] <gDashiva> And the synthesia example talks explicitly about a webpage
  268. # [11:04] <Philip`> Presenting alternate text for a painting is infeasible (you don't want people rubbing their hands all over your priceless paintings trying to find a braille description)
  269. # [11:05] <Philip`> but for <img> it's trivial since you just add an attribute and the user has tools that let them read it
  270. # [11:05] <Hixie> i love how everyone and their brother has now pointed out that there are references to RFC3066 in HTML5
  271. # [11:07] <gDashiva> Philip`: Imagine if the alt text was embedded in the original painting, then you wouldn't need to write alt text for the <img>
  272. # [11:07] <gDashiva> They could just use an automated extract-alt-text-from-image AT program
  273. # [11:10] <Philip`> gDashiva: I can imagine such a situation but I'm not sure what relevance that has
  274. # [11:11] <Hixie> i wonder if al plans to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0132.html
  275. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: there's a chance that your assuption that alt text should make sense when flattened as part of surrounding prose isn't the right assumption
  276. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: and that users would be better off getting cued that a piece of text is an alt digression from the surrounding prose and doesn't need to flow nicely into the paragraph
  277. # [11:13] <Hixie> there's always a chance that i'm wrong on many things :-)
  278. # [11:14] <Hixie> well i don't know about AT users, but at least from the point of view of a Lynx/Links user (which I am regularly), I certainly wouldn't want to be told whenever there's an image, i just want the image replaced with the text
  279. # [11:15] <gDashiva> Philip`: one painter writing alt, or X web page authors doing the same work over and over :)
  280. # [11:15] <gDashiva> But yes, it's not that relevant in today's digital age
  281. # [11:17] <Hixie> ok bed time
  282. # [11:17] <Hixie> nn
  283. # [11:18] <gDashiva> m
  284. # [11:18] <Philip`> gDashiva: Maybe the painter could embed the alt text as a kind of watermark in their painting, so even if someone takes a photo of it and uploads it to their web page then the text will still be extractable and the image will still be accessible
  285. # [11:19] <gDashiva> Philip`: Kinda like all that pirate-tracing tech being proposed for DRMed media?
  286. # [11:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: "well i don't know about AT users, but at least from the point of view of a Lynx/Links user (which I am regularly), I certainly wouldn't want to be told whenever there's an image, i just want the image replaced with the text" -- that'd work fine when reading your blog but not so fine for web pages in general since alt is so often misused
  287. # [11:31] <BenMillard> zcorpan, here are the interesting uses of alt I collected: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/collection#alt
  288. # [11:32] <BenMillard> (it's not a study of how many are good versus how many are bad; it focusses on the ones I found interesting or considered wrong)
  289. # [11:32] <BenMillard> duplication of nearby text and filenames seem like a common mistake, although I haven't crunched the numbers yet
  290. # [11:33] <BenMillard> sometimes it looks like the alt was written for one version of the image, then the image changed and the alt wasn't updated
  291. # [11:37] <BenMillard> missing the alt in places it was needed happened in quite a few cases, too
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  299. # [12:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <meta charset=asdfasdf> validates
  300. # [12:35] <anne> I heard yesterday namespaces could've been worse. Philippe Le H├ęgaret detailed a huge device at the W3C (took eight months to resolve and many many hours) as to whether a namespace should be a URI reference or a string.
  301. # [12:38] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  302. # [13:02] <webben> Philip`: note that some image formats allow you to embed text metadata : http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/1.2/PNG-Chunks.html#C.tEXt for example
  303. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: asdfasdf meets the syntactic requirements for a charset name
  304. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: should I check the value against a list of actual names?
  305. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if so, which list?
  306. # [13:03] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d970dbab0862655f)
  307. # [13:04] <hsivonen> I don't like the theoretical open-endedness of charset
  308. # [13:04] <hsivonen> I want UTF-8 and a closed list of grandfathered legacy names
  309. # [13:05] <hsivonen> anne: do you meant like doing relative URI processing on NS URIs?
  310. # [13:06] <hsivonen> s/meant/mean/
  311. # [13:08] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  312. # [13:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in xml you warn that it doesn't match external encoding information
  313. # [13:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in text/html it's an all clear
  314. # [13:10] <anne> hsivonen, yes
  315. # [13:10] <anne> s/device/devide/
  316. # [13:10] <anne> too
  317. # [13:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could use the list that your validator supports
  318. # [13:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. somehow I thought I had code for checking that meta matched the encoding in use
  319. # [13:11] <hsivonen> weird
  320. # [13:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah i remember it whining about it before
  321. # [13:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i tested with textarea input
  322. # [13:14] * hsivonen finds // XXX NOP
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  326. # [13:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed. thanks
  327. # [13:24] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-161.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  328. # [13:37] <hsivonen> hmm. using real web content is almost like fuzzing
  329. # [13:41] <wilhelm> It is. Our stability testing tools use URLs from the wild or fuzzers interchangeably. (c;
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  343. # [15:23] <anne> hsivonen, anonymous suggests maybe making a list of namespace benefits for browser vendors (not suggesting it's non-empty)
  344. # [15:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  346. # [15:25] <hsivonen> anne: namespace or Namespace?
  347. # [15:27] <anne> XML namespace, if that helps
  348. # [15:27] <anne> namespaces*, meh
  349. # [15:29] <anne> should we update Wikipedia to mention Web Workers?
  350. # [15:31] <anne> I guess it will happen eventualy
  351. # [15:31] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0624bd68884ef8be)
  352. # [15:31] <anne> lly
  353. # [15:31] <hsivonen> I can't think of any benefits from Namespaces to browser vendors where the benefit couldn't have been obtained by a mechanism that doesn't use the kind of indirection Namespaces use
  354. # [15:33] <hsivonen> CSS extensions, DOM extensions and MathML all involve putting a short prefix into the opaque name
  355. # [15:34] <anne> same here
  356. # [15:38] <hsivonen> I can't think of cases where a browser vendor is itself using Namespaces except XUL
  357. # [15:38] <hsivonen> though the benefit could be that if others use Namespaces, they keep out of the browser-sensitive name turf
  358. # [15:38] <anne> even there you could just have moz-button and such
  359. # [15:38] <hsivonen> right
  360. # [15:39] <hsivonen> oh, and then there's VML
  361. # [15:40] <hsivonen> which for practical purposes uses the short prefix approach
  362. # [15:45] <hsivonen> the other day, I was pondering if HTML5 could make createElementNS fade into obscurity by making createElement recognize MathML and SVG names and the SVG/HTML name-colliding elements implementing the interfaces for both HTML and SVG
  363. # [15:46] <hsivonen> after all, SVG rendering is already sensitive to the tree position of the element
  364. # [15:47] <anne> maybe
  365. # [15:49] <anne> grmbl, I e-mailed ietf-types, but http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-types/ doesn't reflect that
  366. # [15:50] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
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  385. # [18:42] * Philip` can't remember whether he's already commented that his objection to the alt="{...}" proposal (in that it makes it hard to write reliably-correct HTML-generating tools) could be fixed by permitting it in the alt-is-actually-a-proper-equivalent cases as well as the alt-is-just-a-description cases
  386. # [18:42] <Philip`> which would mean conforming pages using alt="{...}" would be ambiguous, but that's okay because it's going to be ambiguous in reality anyway and this won't make it any worse
  387. # [18:43] <Philip`> So, anyway, if I hadn't commented on that, then at least I have now
  388. # [18:45] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  389. # [19:06] * krijnh adds a new subtitle to his logs
  390. # [19:07] <krijnh> jgraham: thanks for the inspiration :)
  391. # [19:11] <Lachy> krijnh, which one was added?
  392. # [19:12] * anne__ hits F5
  393. # [19:12] <krijnh> Something about an eval overlord
  394. # [19:12] <krijnh> *evil
  395. # [19:12] <anne__> "Because, Seriously, Dmitry Can't Do It All By Himself" hehe
  396. # [19:12] <Lachy> that won't work too well for me, since I don't konw most of the existing ones
  397. # [19:12] <jgraham> Lachy: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/?gimme-a-hobby
  398. # [19:13] * anne__ finds "Where The Evil HTML 5 Overlord And His Band Of Minions Chat, In Public"
  399. # [19:13] * anne__ lols
  400. # [19:14] <jgraham> anne__: In the middle of a WG meeting?
  401. # [19:14] <anne__> jgraham, at the end actually, maybe you can join for dinner
  402. # [19:15] <anne__> jgraham, you can
  403. # [19:15] * anne__ figures out where we are going
  404. # [19:15] <anne__> Philip`, you can too, but it's Indian and I heard you might not enjoy that
  405. # [19:16] <jgraham> anne__: OK
  406. # [19:16] <jgraham> cool
  407. # [19:16] <anne__> jgraham, http://www.pipasha-restaurant.co.uk/?id=contact
  408. # [19:16] <anne__> we have a reservation at 6:45
  409. # [19:16] <anne__> Philip`, there is place for you fwiw
  410. # [19:17] <jgraham> Interesting. How are you getting there
  411. # [19:17] <anne__> (also, it's a subset of the WG)
  412. # [19:17] * jgraham can't walk that far by 6:45
  413. # [19:18] <jgraham> You are just across the road, right?
  414. # [19:18] <anne__> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cambridge+pipasha&ie=UTF8&ll=52.213353,0.154431&spn=0.004944,0.009871&t=h&z=17
  415. # [19:19] <anne__> we are at Microsoft still
  416. # [19:19] <anne__> and going by car
  417. # [19:19] <anne__> if you come a little later that's ok
  418. # [19:20] <anne__> or grab a cab, not sure if that's expensive or not though
  419. # [19:20] <jgraham> I guess I might just stay here and do some work since it's so far away and I've got so little done
  420. # [19:21] <anne__> is it really that far?
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  422. # [19:21] <anne__> ok
  423. # [19:21] <jgraham> anne__: I guess 45-60 minutes walk
  424. # [19:22] <anne__> arriving at 7, 7:15 is fine, but decide for yourself
  425. # [19:22] * anne__ has to pack his laptop now
  426. # [19:22] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  427. # [19:23] * Quits: anne__ (i=d5c7928a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ff844a09ffe10bc9) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  428. # [19:23] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-f1a66a8500079c98)
  429. # [19:25] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  430. # [19:41] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  431. # [19:44] * Lachy wrote a script to extract all subtitles from krijnh's logs
  432. # [19:44] <Lachy> well, I hope I got them all. I relied on the probability of all of them being sent at least once within 100 separate requests for the page
  433. # [19:45] <krijnh> Hah
  434. # [19:45] <krijnh> Don't DOS my server please :)
  435. # [19:45] <Lachy> I didn't. I did: wget http://.../; sleep 1; in a loop
  436. # [19:45] <krijnh> How many did you find?
  437. # [19:45] <Lachy> <em>This</em> Line Is My Opinion, Not The Other(')s
  438. # [19:45] <Lachy> <em>What working group</em> is going to work on extending HTML...
  439. # [19:45] <Lachy> Actually, We Need A Solid Use Case For These Logs
  440. # [19:45] <Lachy> And <code>X-UA-Compatible</code> Is A Great Idea!
  441. # [19:45] <Lachy> And Indeed, <code>#xhtml</code> Wasn't Kick Ass Enough
  442. # [19:45] <Lachy> And RSS Is A Success As Well
  443. # [19:46] <Lachy> And You Can <code>/join</code> Too
  444. # [19:46] <Lachy> Because A Mailinglist Alone Isn't Enough
  445. # [19:46] <Lachy> Because All Those Web 2.0 Widgets Should Be Accessible
  446. # [19:46] <Lachy> Because XHTML Is The Future!
  447. # [19:46] <Lachy> Because, Seriously, Dmitry Can't Do It All By Himself
  448. # [19:46] <Lachy> Could You Elaborate?
  449. # [19:46] <Lachy> Great Minds Think Alike. And Sick Minds, Too!
  450. # [19:46] <krijnh> Damn you! Now I have to find new ones
  451. # [19:46] <Lachy> In Search Of A Better Title
  452. # [19:46] <Lachy> Including Offtopic WHATWG Cabal Ramblings
  453. # [19:46] <Lachy> Issue Tracking Tools Will Save Us!
  454. # [19:46] <Lachy> OMG! We Can't Break The Web!
  455. # [19:46] <Lachy> Opinions Expressed Here Are Those ... Bla Bla Bla
  456. # [19:46] <Lachy> Public-html: A Mailinglist Apart
  457. # [19:46] <Lachy> So, When Can We Use <code>application/xhtml+xml</code> Again?
  458. # [19:46] <Lachy> Somebody Needs To Do To The Semantic Web What The WHATWG Did To HTML
  459. # [19:46] <Lachy> Sorry, But Who Asked For This?
  460. # [19:46] <Lachy> We Cannot Definitively Say Why XHTML Has Not Been Successful On The Web
  461. # [19:46] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
  462. # [19:46] <Lachy> Web 2.0, Evolved (Still In Beta Though)
  463. # [19:46] <Lachy> What Else Do I Need To Do To Get Hired By Opera? Or Google?
  464. # [19:46] <Lachy> Where The Evil HTML 5 Overlord And His Band Of Minions Chat, In Public
  465. # [19:46] <Lachy> While We All Agree Flash Is Still A Superior Technology ;)
  466. # [19:46] <Lachy> Yeah, And Standards Suck, Right
  467. # [19:46] <Lachy> Your Ad Here? Let's See. Nope, It Isn't.
  468. # [19:46] <Lachy> htmllogs4all!
  469. # [19:46] <Lachy> you could always erase them from your log, and it'll be as if I never posted them :-)
  470. # [19:46] <krijnh> :)
  471. # [19:47] <krijnh> So now it's pretty obvious: sometimes I just don't have anything to do
  472. # [19:50] <krijnh> Same thing for you btw
  473. # [19:54] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0624bd68884ef8be)
  474. # [19:57] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  475. # [19:58] <Lachy> woah, I did miss one on the first attempt. there was 30 in that list, this time I got 31
  476. # [19:58] <Lachy> "And SVG Needs Some Love As Well" was missed
  477. # [19:59] <krijnh> Oh dear
  478. # [19:59] <Lachy> btw, if anyone else wants to participate in a DDoS against krijnh, here's the script :-)
  479. # [19:59] <Lachy> for ((i=0;$i<100;i=$i+1));
  480. # [19:59] <Lachy> do wget -O $i.html http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/?gimme-a-hobby;
  481. # [19:59] <Lachy> sleep 1;
  482. # [19:59] <Lachy> done
  483. # [19:59] <Lachy> cat * | grep ^\<p | sort | uniq > all.txt
  484. # [19:59] <Lachy> cat all.txt | wc -l
  485. # [19:59] <krijnh> Thanks for ruining my fun ;)
  486. # [20:00] <gDashiva> See
  487. # [20:00] <gDashiva> You need to add a captcha or something
  488. # [20:00] <krijnh> I seriously hope nobody is interested in this as much as you.. And not because of the DOS stuff ;)
  489. # [20:01] <Lachy> I was just bored, and wanted to practice my skills with writing bash scripts, which I started learning recently
  490. # [20:01] <jcranmer> Lachy: the bash script I wrote to help teach myself is ugly
  491. # [20:01] <jcranmer> but I have proven that it is possible to write a BFS in bash
  492. # [20:02] <gDashiva> It's also possible to bang your head against the wall
  493. # [20:02] <Lachy> BFS? first result was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadth-first_search
  494. # [20:02] <Lachy> is that right?
  495. # [20:02] <jcranmer> yes
  496. # [20:02] <krijnh> gDashiva: Good point
  497. # [20:03] <Lachy> the bug with my script is that it doesn't stript <p><b> tags from the lines. Is that possible to do with grep, or some other utility?
  498. # [20:03] <krijnh> sed ?
  499. # [20:04] <Lachy> ok, I'll have to learn sed later
  500. # [20:04] <krijnh> No idea if it's possible, I don't use it that much
  501. # [20:04] <krijnh> Anyway, done reading up on HTML WG mail
  502. # [20:04] <Lachy> anything interesting worth reading?
  503. # [20:05] <krijnh> Anybody in here going to Fronteers 2008, to see anne speak? :)
  504. # [20:05] <Lachy> no
  505. # [20:05] <krijnh> Tsk
  506. # [20:05] <Lachy> when and where is that?
  507. # [20:05] <krijnh> http://fronteers.nl/congres/2008/speakers
  508. # [20:05] <Lachy> anne isn't listed as a speaker on that page
  509. # [20:06] <krijnh> There are 3 speakers to be annoucned
  510. # [20:06] <krijnh> *announced
  511. # [20:06] <krijnh> Anne is one of those 3
  512. # [20:06] <Lachy> I'm going back to Australia on September 20 instead, and I have my own presentation to give on the Oct 7
  513. # [20:13] <krijnh> But Dean Edwards is coming!
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  518. # [20:33] * gsnedders notes he doesn't have 200 EUR
  519. # [20:34] * jgraham notes that stripping stuff from lines ia a major use case for sed
  520. # [20:36] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@80.187.212.29) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  521. # [20:38] <jgraham> sed -e "s|<p><b>\(.*\)<\/b><\/p>|\1|"
  522. # [20:38] <jgraham> for example
  523. # [20:38] <jgraham> obviously Philip` will have an easier way :)
  524. # [20:39] <Philip`> perl -pe's~<p><b>(.*)</b></p>~$1~'
  525. # [20:40] <jgraham> krijnh: I don't know how the subtitle gets chosen but you should put in a few with a low probability like 1 in 1000
  526. # [20:40] <krijnh> Why exactly? )
  527. # [20:41] <jgraham> To annoy Lachy
  528. # [20:41] <jgraham> :)
  529. # [20:41] <krijnh> Good reason :)
  530. # [20:41] <Philip`> anne__: Indeed, I'm not much of a fan of any non-trivial food :-(
  531. # [20:42] * jgraham notes that he has empirical evidence that Philip` eats more types of food than the guy in his department who eats only processed chicken and white bread
  532. # [20:43] <Philip`> I eat unprocessed chicken too :-)
  533. # [20:48] <gsnedders> Not spinach though.
  534. # [20:51] <gsnedders> (or at least I think that's what Philip` didn't eat on his pizza back when myself and jgraham went out to supper with him in May)
  535. # [20:52] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  536. # [20:53] <gsnedders> krijnh: I have to admit I think one or two are a bit mean to some people, even if they are funny :)
  537. # [20:54] <gsnedders> Oh, BTW, I did decide on the project that I came up with based on jgraham's idea.
  538. # [20:54] * Quits: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-22c415406c394e48) ("The computer fell asleep")
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  542. # [21:11] <krijnh> gsnedders: which ones?
  543. # [21:11] <gsnedders> krijnh: Oh like, Dimitry
  544. # [21:11] <gsnedders> though that is funny.
  545. # [21:14] <krijnh> Hope so, not meant to be offensive or something :)
  546. # [21:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: just make the list of encodings you consider valid be the list of encodings you support
  547. # [21:23] <Hixie> Kristof sends weird e-mails
  548. # [21:23] <Hixie> i don't really know what to ask him to change
  549. # [21:24] <Hixie> but like his latest e-mail about GNU libmagic... I mean, I'm sure some people don't know about file(1) yet, but so what?
  550. # [21:24] <Lachy> jgraham, thanks for the help with sed
  551. # [21:25] <Hixie> karl sent a similar e-mail (about new york)
  552. # [21:30] * Joins: michaeln (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-f4ccb7dae09b7c33)
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  559. # [21:50] <Hixie> i asked al if he was going to reply to my last e-mail on the alt thread
  560. # [21:50] <Hixie> he replied that i was asking the wrong person
  561. # [21:50] <Hixie> i'll take that as a no then...
  562. # [21:54] <krijnh> (Meanwhile, the bomb keeps ticking)
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  587. # [23:27] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09d7b.dyn.optonline.net) ("ciao")
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  592. # [23:41] <Hixie> "why would Flickr decide to violate [the requirement that alt not be bogus] rather than the one that says 'authors must provide suitable alt text'"
  593. # [23:41] <Hixie> seriously?
  594. # [23:42] <Hixie> we're still at that point in the debate?
  595. # [23:42] <Hixie> jesus
  596. # [23:42] <hober> sigh.
  597. # [23:43] <Dashiva> On one hand they want people to be conformant. On the other hand they expect people to ignore conformance for arbitrary reasons
  598. # [23:44] <roc> "why would Flickr decide to violate the alt requirement rather than the one that says Flickr should stay in business"
  599. # [23:45] <roc> although of course Flickr probably would stay in business, users would quickly find the shortest alt string that passes filters
  600. # [23:45] <Dashiva> And the AT could just hardcode that to mean 'no alt'. "Brillant"
  601. # [23:46] <Hixie> hey what are some photo sites like picasa and flickr
  602. # [23:46] <roc> photobucket
  603. # [23:46] <Dashiva> my opera has galleries
  604. # [23:46] <hober> photo.net
  605. # [23:46] <Hixie> i need one more with a single word name and then google sets will give me the rest
  606. # [23:46] <Dashiva> all the photobucket-like sites, imageshack etc
  607. # [23:47] <Hixie> cool thanks
  608. # [23:47] <Hixie> http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=flickr&q2=picasa&q3=photobucket&q4=imageshack&q5=&btn=Large+Set
  609. # [23:47] <roc> very cool
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  612. # [23:57] <Hixie> holy crap there are lot of these
  613. # [23:58] <Dashiva> And then you have image boards
  614. # Session Close: Sat Aug 23 00:00:00 2008

The end :)