/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-24 / end

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  27. # [06:35] <Hixie> wow, david is arguing not only for alt= being required but for it being required to never be empty even for decorative images
  28. # [06:35] <Hixie> and he's blind, as far as i can tell
  29. # [06:35] <Hixie> so presumably would be aware of the crazyness of that position
  30. # [06:35] * Hixie is baffled
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  68. # [12:44] <Hixie> Philip`: i would be interested in hearing your opinion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0254.html
  69. # [12:49] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  70. # [13:12] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008JulSep/0073.html sugests that the HCG call two weeks ago consisted almost entirely about talking about me
  71. # [13:13] <Dashiva> Too bad it's a treehouse-archive
  72. # [13:15] <Philip`> I think the described "gain for one segment of the population (those needing alt text)" comes from having any mechanism that gives a textual description of an image when no equivalent is available (and that requires authors to always write something, and hence to think about alt and (with non-zero probability) write something that's better than nothing);
  73. # [13:15] <Philip`> and this particular "small pain for another (tool writers)" is specific to the curly-brace syntax and doesn't seem to be a problem in any other proposed mechanism, because the other mechanisms don't add any complexity to the otherwise-pleasant situations where you really do have equivalent text
  74. # [13:15] <Philip`> I think the gain is worthwhile, so I wouldn't want to go back to alt being optional; but I think the pain is real, so I'd prefer some other solution that has the same gain without the pain
  75. # [13:15] <Philip`> but that involves tradeoffs against the pains (of varying levels of theoreticality) of other solutions, which is not trivial (if it's even possible) :-(
  76. # [13:17] <Hixie> k
  77. # [13:19] <Philip`> (I guess the desire to be able to distinguish equivalent text from descriptive text, so that <img alt="equivalent"> can be rendered the same as <span>equivalent</span>, seems like a mostly theoretical concern to me, since in reality nobody distinguishes alt that way, so a UA will have to cope with the indistinguishability anyway)
  78. # [13:20] <Hixie> that's basically the argument which is leading me back to alt="" being optional -- whatever we do the data won't be reliable, so UAs are going to have to do heuristics in all cases anyway, so why not just have the simplest syntax
  79. # [13:20] <Hixie> it's not like categories/roles like the spec suggests using now are actually going to be useful
  80. # [13:21] <Hixie> ok bed time
  81. # [13:21] <Hixie> nn
  82. # [13:21] <Philip`> That's far more of a change than just a simpler syntax, since it deprives the UA/user of even descriptive text about the image
  83. # [13:21] <Hixie> in practice i doubt that we'd be able to get descriptive text about the image
  84. # [13:22] <Hixie> it's not like flickr knows what the images are
  85. # [13:22] <Hixie> and in the case of a computer-generated fractal view, it's not like saying "it's a fractal" is gonna help anyone
  86. # [13:22] <Hixie> same with a webcam
  87. # [13:23] <Hixie> or a blind user's photos
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  89. # [13:34] <Philip`> Even if Flickr just said something like <img alt="Main photo">, that would help users tell apart the main photo from e.g. the "next in photostream" button where Flickr forgot to put any alt attribute, so it's better than nothing
  90. # [13:35] <Hixie> so you want to require that flickr be conforming for one <img> so that the usability of their site is improved because you think they won't be conforming for another one?
  91. # [13:36] <Dashiva> So once again, we're back at something like notalt="text that isn't alternate"
  92. # [13:36] <Hixie> if we are assuming we can get them conforming for any images, why would we assume the main image (which is the hardest to get right) would be where they would start in becoming conforming?
  93. # [13:38] <Philip`> Hixie: The evidence seems to back up that assumption, because Flickr does have alt on its main image whereas it doesn't on some of its other images
  94. # [13:39] <Hixie> the alt on the main image is pretty bogus right now in most cases
  95. # [13:40] <Hixie> i would argue that the flickr site right now shows that which images get alt="" attribute is more likely to be near-random than anything else
  96. # [13:40] <Philip`> Presumably the main image has been there since Flickr first existed, so there's plenty of time for someone who knows 'HTML4 says I need an alt attribute' to have edited the code to generate an alt attribute, while the other images are more recent and nobody has cared to 'fix' them yet
  97. # [13:40] <Philip`> "pretty bogus" is still better than nothing :-)
  98. # [13:40] <Hixie> maybe
  99. # [13:40] <Hixie> and maybe
  100. # [13:40] <Hixie> or maybe not
  101. # [13:41] <Philip`> and when our choices seem to be between "nothing" and "better than nothing", the latter seems a better choice
  102. # [13:41] <Hixie> if it was clearly better i'd agree
  103. # [13:42] <Philip`> Dashiva: Or just alt="text that isn't alternate" :-)
  104. # [13:43] <Hixie> we could also require that all such images be in a link pointing at the image itself
  105. # [13:44] <Dashiva> Philip`: I'm cool with it. You just have to convince public-html
  106. # [13:44] <Hixie> actually he just has to convince me, and, if it is controversial, the chairs :-)
  107. # [13:45] <Dashiva> No, he has to convince public-html so my inbox can get peace and quiet at last ;)
  108. # [13:45] <Hixie> i think it's pretty obvious that there are a number of people who are unwilling to move from their positions and who have positions that are unlikely to ever gain wide acceptance
  109. # [13:46] <Hixie> e.g. the people who think that even decorative images should have non-empty alt
  110. # [13:48] <Hixie> Philip`: so what text would you suggest for the following cases? a generated image for a fractal explorer; the images in google maps in map view and satellite view; the street view images in google maps; an image uploaded as part of a batch upload with no information; a webcam
  111. # [13:50] <Hixie> ok going to bed for real now. will read responses tomorrow.
  112. # [13:50] <Hixie> nn
  113. # [13:51] <Philip`> Dashiva: There's an easier solution to the inbox problem: create a new mailing list for alt discussion
  114. # [13:51] <Philip`> Even better, create a Task Force for it
  115. # [13:51] <Dashiva> Philip`: Oh boy
  116. # [13:51] <Dashiva> Hixie: 04:45 on a sunday? That's dedication :)
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  118. # [14:10] <krijnh> http://fronteers.nl/congres/2008/speakers#anne-van-kesteren
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  132. # [15:34] <malde_> Hi all, is there a recommended way to use the database api to retrieve the field names of a table without selecting any data?
  133. # [15:36] <Dashiva> describe?
  134. # [15:37] <Dashiva> Maybe that's a mysql thing
  135. # [15:37] <malde_> describe might work. I'll take a look at the result set.
  136. # [15:39] <malde_> With the Gears API I can do SELECT * FROM tableName WHERE 0 = 1
  137. # [15:42] <Philip`> SQLite doesn't have "describe" or anything equivalent, I believe
  138. # [15:43] <Philip`> but it has a table named "sqlite_master" that contains the database schema, apparently
  139. # [15:49] <Dashiva> SQL-92 seems to require a COLUMNS table
  140. # [15:50] <malde_> Is sqlite_master a table in every database?
  141. # [15:54] <malde_> Ah, seems like it is
  142. # [16:06] <Philip`> Dashiva: But that's just a standard, you can't expect it to work :-p
  143. # [16:07] <gsnedders> malde_: yes
  144. # [16:07] <gsnedders> Dashiva: What actually implements any SQL standard?
  145. # [16:08] <Philip`> The SQL standard has things like column types, which is a feature SQLite seems quite happy to ignore
  146. # [16:08] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Most of them implement parts of it
  147. # [16:08] <gsnedders> "parts" :)
  148. # [16:08] <Philip`> so I'd be surprised if it implemented all the other features exactly right :-)
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  155. # [16:45] * gsnedders looks up that Varsity survey with medicine at the top and maths at the bottom
  156. # [16:47] <Philip`> http://www.varsity.co.uk/archive/669.pdf ?
  157. # [16:51] <Philip`> (Correlation is not causation, so it would be unwise to base your application decisions on such a survey :-p )
  158. # [16:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, exactly :P
  159. # [16:51] * Philip` wonders how much correlation there is between correlation and causation
  160. # [16:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: So, I'll apply for Clare because it has the highest recreational drug use
  161. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Hmm, interesting: a greater number of people identify as bi than gay.
  162. # [16:52] * gsnedders notes that is unusual
  163. # [16:52] * gsnedders has now dragged this channel totally off-topic :D
  164. # [16:53] <Philip`> It's fortunate that nobody ever lies in online surveys
  165. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Of couse.
  166. # [16:53] <gsnedders> *course
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  179. # [18:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: "A corollary to this is that the alt attribute's value should never contain text that could be considered the image's caption, title, or legend." -- is that intended to be a SHOULD?
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  183. # [18:33] <PHPechowiec> hi
  184. # [18:33] <PHPechowiec> <meta http-equiv=Creation-Date content= "Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:27:54 GMT"> ?
  185. # [18:34] <PHPechowiec> can i use this line in html5?
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  187. # [18:41] <webben> PHPechowiec: based on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#pragma , I do not believe that would conform.
  188. # [18:41] <gsnedders> It wouldn't.
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  195. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Are you one of the people under your name on Facebook?
  196. # [19:02] <Dashiva> No
  197. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Are you someone on Facebook not under your name? :D
  198. # [19:02] <Dashiva> No
  199. # [19:03] <gsnedders> (Yes, I am bored)
  200. # [19:03] <gsnedders> (Yes, I am stalking you all)
  201. # [19:04] <Dashiva> I was on orkut for a few weeks before realizing it was a mistake
  202. # [19:04] <Dashiva> And I'm on myopera out of necessity
  203. # [19:04] <gsnedders> Why is it needed?
  204. # [19:05] <Dashiva> I did work for opera in a user-facing role :)
  205. # [19:05] <gsnedders> user-facing?
  206. # [19:05] <Dashiva> Widgets
  207. # [19:05] <gsnedders> No wonder I only ever saw your back.
  208. # [19:06] <gsnedders> (I know that is only a very vaguely witty remark, but it'll suffice)
  209. # [19:06] <Dashiva> Maybe you should get glasses
  210. # [19:07] <gsnedders> I have some in my pocket, and I'm getting new ones next week.
  211. # [19:08] <Dashiva> You can find me on mixi.jp though :)
  212. # [19:11] * Dashiva notices another friend invite on myopera
  213. # [19:11] <Dashiva> I don't get these people who want several thousand friends they never even talk to
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  215. # [19:17] * jgraham doesn't understand gsnedders joke
  216. # [19:17] <jgraham> Presumably if Dashiva was in a user facing role and you only ever saw his back that would mean that you were inside Opera
  217. # [19:18] <gsnedders> Or I'm just not a user
  218. # [19:21] <jgraham> Oh I see.
  219. # [19:21] <Dashiva> gsnedders isn't a user, he's an addict. *rimshot*
  220. # [19:21] <jgraham> I don't think that's true though. Presumably you jut wouldn't see him at all
  221. # [19:22] <gsnedders> Well, I'm around enough to be reverse-engineering Opera, even if I'm not really using it
  222. # [19:22] <jgraham> Hmm John seems to have missed my point somewhat
  223. # [19:22] <Dashiva> Why am I not surprised?
  224. # [19:22] <gsnedders> http://media.tumblr.com/1vnWCPZWQ9fd1s1k1zTvXUJM_500.png
  225. # [19:23] <Dashiva> 4/10
  226. # [19:23] <Dashiva> gsnedders: You forgot to supply alternate text
  227. # [19:26] <gsnedders> alt="A line, labelling you, heading in a curve away from the marked point"
  228. # [19:27] <Dashiva> So the initial heading being towards the point is not significant?
  229. # [19:27] * gsnedders shrugs
  230. # [19:32] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@212.145.145.227)
  231. # [19:34] <Dashiva> "The issue boils down to this: should conformance be worth paying any attention to without the law requiring it? We argue no."
  232. # [19:35] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  233. # [19:58] * webben thinks that this is a bit of a storm in a teacup giving the lack of general interest in conformance, and authors' happiness to ignore conformance problems they judge irrelevant to them.
  234. # [19:58] <webben> *given
  235. # [19:59] <webben> i'd be much more worried about trying to explain weirdnesses of HTML to people trying to validate their content.
  236. # [19:59] <webben> at least "provide a text equivalent" can be explained in human language
  237. # [20:00] <webben> unlike say entity errors in current HTML validation, which needs to be explained in geekspeak :)
  238. # [20:02] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  239. # [20:02] * webben wonders if HTML5 make & in URLs in href conforming or still requires conversion to &amp;
  240. # [20:02] <webben> newbies ever understands that.
  241. # [20:02] <webben> *never understand
  242. # [20:03] * Joins: malde_ (n=chatzill@d123124.adsl.hansenet.de)
  243. # [20:10] <Philip`> webben: That's still non-conforming, because it's likely to result in errors (e.g. when someone wants to add a "gt" parameter to their query and writes <a href="foo.cgi?a=b&gt=c"> and it all goes horribly wrong), and so it's still worthwhile repeatedly telling authors not to do that
  244. # [20:13] <Philip`> Hopefully the conformance checker would detect when you have that error in a URL attribute, and would say something relatively friendly like "It looks like you are using '&' to separate values in this URL - you have to write them as '&amp;' instead", rather than saying something confusing and meaningless like "Error: Entity reference was not terminated by a semicolon."
  245. # [20:13] <webben> Hopefully.
  246. # [20:14] <Dashiva> Philip`: Only if it outputs the message as RDF
  247. # [20:16] <webben> apparently, however, http://www.flickr.com/ don't bother encoding to &amp; even now.
  248. # [20:17] <Dashiva> webben: Considering all the hate they get on public-html, maybe they decided conformance wasn't worth trying for :)
  249. # [20:17] <webben> which I suppose points at the problem of requiring things that only help sometimes.
  250. # [20:17] <webben> Dashiva: Flickr's non-conformance is long-standing; I'm not sure the public-html discussions about Flickr have very much visibility.
  251. # [20:19] <webben> I see people regularly use & instead of &amp; because they think it will work, even when they care about other aspects of valid HTML.
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  276. # [22:18] <jgraham> Sigh
  277. # [22:19] * annevk notices people have been having fun over the weekend
  278. # [22:19] * annevk played Super Mario World and Call of Duty 4
  279. # [22:20] <jgraham> heh
  280. # [22:21] <annevk> and I used my friends high upload bandwidth to get my Cambridge photos on flickr
  281. # [22:21] <Dashiva> annevk: I'm sure you could make a game out of public-html. They managed to come up with buzzword bingo, after all :)
  282. # [22:22] * jgraham wonders if the a11y people only play text based adventures
  283. # [22:24] <Dashiva> jgraham: Making textual alternates available would make most games very prone to macroing/botting/etc
  284. # [22:24] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  285. # [22:24] <jgraham> annevk: Did you have fun punting in the rain?
  286. # [22:24] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.120.173) (Remote closed the connection)
  287. # [22:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  288. # [22:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fwiw, i now didn't get that error message when filing a bug
  289. # [22:26] <Philip`> I like how some games (at least Portal, and probably the Half Life 2 games too) have closed captioning, so you can get all the audio cues even without any audio
  290. # [22:27] <hsivonen> webben: There's indeed tension between saying "this stuff sucks so you shouldn't use it for new content" and "this stuff sucks so badly that you should go and remove if from the content you are upgrading"
  291. # [22:27] <hsivonen> webben: I think we don't have a good solution that respects both the time of upgraders and of authors starting from a clean slate
  292. # [22:28] <webben> well, one could actually differentiate between the two
  293. # [22:28] <annevk> btw, if you like Mario, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in6RZzdGki8 is quite funny
  294. # [22:28] <webben> whether it's good to do so or not I don't know.
  295. # [22:28] <annevk> jgraham, there wasn't too much rain actually
  296. # [22:29] <webben> hsivonen: for example one could error in response to &gt= but only warn for &name=
  297. # [22:29] <annevk> jgraham, it was fun to do
  298. # [22:29] <jgraham> Ah, I saw Hakon had his umbrella out
  299. # [22:30] <annevk> it's from Bert iirc
  300. # [22:30] <annevk> but the drops were hardly noticable for most of it
  301. # [22:36] <jgraham> Sigh**2
  302. # [22:38] <annevk> maybe you should set up a proxy that filters out WHATWG and HTML5 related e-mail until your thesis is done :)
  303. # [22:38] <annevk> though I guess it gives some distraction
  304. # [22:41] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  305. # [22:42] <hsivonen> webben: the problem is how to distinguish them in a way that doesn't fail like HTML 4.01 Strict vs. Transitional?
  306. # [22:42] <hsivonen> webben: it seems a bit pointless to make the validator emit messages at all where the messages are meant to be ignored
  307. # [22:42] <webben> hsivonen: warnings aren't "meant to be ignored".
  308. # [22:43] <jgraham> annevk: Not such a bad idea I guess. But I think my thesis will get done. It's just annoying to try and explain something clearly and then realise that you didn't get your message across at all
  309. # [22:43] <hsivonen> webben: I'm getting into the game of analyzing millions of pages in order to get data about what kind of errors are the ones that would particularly waste the time of upgraders
  310. # [22:44] <webben> hsivonen: I think the "failure" (if there was one) had to do with choices about what went into strict that disagreed with what authors wanted to use and that worked in the browsers they cared about.
  311. # [22:44] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  312. # [22:44] <annevk> jgraham, maybe you should try to enforce your points by law
  313. # [22:45] <webben> hsivonen: I suppose target and iframe being the most important examples.
  314. # [22:45] <annevk> jgraham, they'll probably be familiar with that
  315. # [22:45] * annevk hides
  316. # [22:45] <hsivonen> webben: as far as HTML tables and IE installed base are concerned, we have that kind of problem with HTML5
  317. # [22:45] <Dashiva> webben: Didn't stop target from being a point of contention in html5 as well :)
  318. # [22:46] <webben> Dashiva: Well of course not. Authors wanting to use doesn't make it a great idea.
  319. # [22:46] <Dashiva> Whether it's a good idea or not doesn't mean much if it leads to scrapping your strict version by authors
  320. # [22:47] <webben> depends on what the point of the versioning is
  321. # [22:47] <webben> if the point of conformance is to get "good practice" but you can only get conformance by sanctioning "bad practice" that's a largely pointless exercise.
  322. # [22:48] <hsivonen> fwiw, I'm not so much concerned about pushing an ideal of good practice
  323. # [22:48] <Dashiva> webben: Not if allowing one bad practice means they fix a dozen others
  324. # [22:48] <hsivonen> I'm more interested in producing a tool that allows authors catch mistakes they didn't make
  325. # [22:49] <hsivonen> although Validator.nu does have political good practice aspects
  326. # [22:49] <webben> what are "mistakes they didn't make"?
  327. # [22:49] <hsivonen> oops
  328. # [22:49] <hsivonen> didn't *intend* to make
  329. # [22:50] <webben> how can you intend to make a mistake?
  330. # [22:50] <Dashiva> E.g. if you're using a bad practice on purpose
  331. # [22:50] <webben> is that good or bad? using a "bad practice" on purpose.
  332. # [22:50] <hsivonen> webben: if you use <embed> in HTML 4.01 on purpose, for example
  333. # [22:51] <webben> that's not a "mistake". that's a conformance error.
  334. # [22:51] <webben> or an instance of deliberate non-conformance
  335. # [22:52] <webben> validators can't really do much about instances of deliberate non-conformance
  336. # [22:52] * annevk wonders what the point of this conversation is
  337. # [22:52] <webben> the point for me, is increasing puzzlement about what conformance in HTML5 is, and its integrity as a single thing.
  338. # [22:53] <hsivonen> annevk: I guess the point on my side is that I don't believe as much in the wishful part of conformance as I think Hixie does
  339. # [22:53] <hsivonen> annevk: when it comes to removing "bad" legacy features from the conforming language
  340. # [22:54] <webben> it seems to me the one bit of conformance everyone (?) would buy into is where you recommend features that work in lots of user agents over features that do the same thing but in fewer user agents.
  341. # [22:56] <webben> Hixie seems keen to use conformance to protect future extension points, which is a good idea, but of less widespread appeal.
  342. # [22:56] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  343. # [22:56] <annevk> works for CSS
  344. # [22:57] <hsivonen> webben: that's not what making align on td non-conforming is about, though
  345. # [22:57] <webben> annevk: CSS has extension points built into the language.
  346. # [22:57] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  347. # [22:57] <webben> annevk: I don't think CSS validation/conformance has been a particularly powerful force for authors.
  348. # [22:57] <webben> e.g. non-validating hacks, opacity, filter, vendor-specific extensions
  349. # [22:58] <webben> with the last one built-in, but forbidden
  350. # [22:58] <hsivonen> I stopped paying attention to CSS validation when I couldn't configure the validator to grok Prince extensions
  351. # [22:58] <annevk> the validator should probably group extensions as a single error
  352. # [22:59] <hsivonen> annevk: this was the CSS validator running inside Oxygen
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  355. # [22:59] <annevk> my impression has always been that quite a few authors do use the CSS validator, but that's anecdotical
  356. # [23:00] <webben> Then there's conformance for trying to change authoring practices that could lead to errors, even when they in fact aren't errors that cause problems. e.g. &name in href.
  357. # [23:00] <hsivonen> or spaces in URLs most of the time
  358. # [23:00] <webben> While I'm glad of a tool to check that, I suspect that will reduce the amount of conformance considerably.
  359. # [23:01] <webben> e.g. lots of relatively conforming webpages fail to encode ampersands now
  360. # [23:01] <annevk> &name could cause a problem going forward
  361. # [23:01] <annevk> though that is somewhat avoided by requiring ; for new entities
  362. # [23:01] <webben> annevk: yeah well I'm talking about &name= not &name;
  363. # [23:02] <webben> and if one didn't require ; that would break _old_ content using &name=
  364. # [23:02] <webben> of which there's plenty
  365. # [23:02] <annevk> &name is slightly suboptimal from a parser point of view
  366. # [23:02] <annevk> so an author might want to optimize that
  367. # [23:03] <webben> yeah. they _might_.
  368. # [23:03] <annevk> anyway, if you want &name to be conforming, you want whatwg@whatwg.org
  369. # [23:04] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  370. # [23:04] <webben> personally, I don't care whether it's conforming or not particularly (I just use &amp; ). I just think it's interesting as an aspect of the emerging picture of HTML5 conformance.
  371. # [23:05] <annevk> ok
  372. # [23:07] <webben> my guess (it's only a guess) is that there will be more websites failing conformance because of ampersand rules than would if HTML5 required alt (for example), since I see lots of websites with alt but that fail to encode ampersands
  373. # [23:07] <webben> Flickr probably won't conform whatever the conformance rules are (alt isn't a "problem" for Flickr now, it just uses alt="" on the main photo page; it doesn't encode ampersands however).
  374. # [23:08] <webben> given those speculations, I find much of the alt debate rather odd
  375. # [23:08] <annevk> hsivonen has stats on that
  376. # [23:09] <annevk> I find it rather odd for very different reasons :D
  377. # [23:09] <webben> oh there are other odd things said by most correspondents
  378. # [23:12] <hsivonen> annevk: what do I have stats on?
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  380. # [23:13] <webben> hsivonen: websites with/without alt, with/without ampersands encoded properly, combinations thereof, I think?
  381. # [23:13] <annevk> common conformance errors on pages
  382. # [23:13] <webben> oh, pages is somewhat different
  383. # [23:13] <webben> e.g. photo sharing sites have lots of pages, few links.
  384. # [23:13] <hsivonen> when I ran the alexa 500 through the validator, absent alt wasn't a machine-checkable conformance error
  385. # [23:14] <webben> note I said "websites failing conformance"
  386. # [23:14] <annevk> nm then hsivonen, seems I missed his point
  387. # [23:15] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like my mass validation harness is broken or the disk image containing the test data has a corrupt file system...
  388. # [23:15] <hsivonen> or both...
  389. # [23:17] <annevk> http://serialseb.blogspot.com/2008/08/proposing-syntax-to-attach-behaviors-to.html#c8752145182107351356 ?
  390. # [23:17] <annevk> zcorpen ? ^^
  391. # [23:18] <annevk> http://ajaxworld.com/general/sessiondetail1008.htm?id=57
  392. # [23:19] <annevk> people from Kaazing Corporation will speak about HTML5...
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  400. # [23:57] * jcranmer_ is now known as jcranmer
  401. # [23:59] <jcranmer> I prefer i.m.o's GHOST quit message
  402. # Session Close: Mon Aug 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)