/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  4. # [00:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think the answer is yes but I don't know if/where it is defined
  5. # [00:06] <gsnedders> it isn't, as far as I can see
  6. # [00:07] <jgraham> When a script element that is marked as neither having "already executed" nor being "parser-inserted" is inserted into a document, the user agent must run the script element.
  7. # [00:08] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#script
  8. # [00:08] <jgraham> So all you need is to verify that DOM calls neither set the "parser inserted" nor "already executed" flags
  9. # [00:09] <gsnedders> ah, ok
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  12. # [00:12] <Lachy> gsnedders, have you got those photos yet?
  13. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: Oh, let me nag Ross to see if I can use his photo
  14. # [00:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have a camera, right? You could have a picture on the tubes within minutes
  15. # [00:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Temp. dye.
  16. # [00:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: I no longer have green hair
  17. # [00:14] <jgraham> lame
  18. # [00:14] <Lachy> oh, what?! That wasn't the deal!
  19. # [00:14] <jgraham> ;)
  20. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: You didn't specify :)
  21. # [00:15] <Lachy> I was expecting you to turn up at TPAC with it
  22. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: OK, maybe I'll let someone perm. dye it there
  23. # [00:20] <gsnedders> I have next to no money, so maybe I'll have to get someone else to buy the dye
  24. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Oh, my hair will certainly need bleaching to get it to work at all
  25. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Lachy: Give me a bit and I'll email you a photo
  26. # [00:27] <jgraham> flickr or it didn't happen :)
  27. # [00:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: When I put up the rest of my photos, sure
  28. # [00:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Till then, be patient :)
  29. # [00:27] <Dashiva> Don't forget to add descriptions
  30. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Should upload them this week, though
  31. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I don't know who half the photos are of!
  32. # [00:27] <gsnedders> I'm terrible with names!
  33. # [00:27] <gsnedders> I can't label them!
  34. # [00:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Surely it isn't much harder to upload 1 photo to flickr than to email it
  35. # [00:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I want all my photos going up at once! :P
  36. # [00:28] * gsnedders needs to go to sleep
  37. # [00:28] <jgraham> ?!?
  38. # [00:28] <jgraham> (the sleep bit I got)
  39. # [00:28] <Dashiva> If he doesn't upload them all at once, the alt defense fails ;)
  40. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Exactly :P
  41. # [00:29] <jgraham> I almost never upload more than one photo at a time so I have a different alt defence
  42. # [00:29] <jgraham> :)
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  45. # [00:35] <gsnedders> Oh, there are so many nice search strings for my site
  46. # [00:35] <gsnedders> "what causes girls feelings to change"
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  48. # [00:36] <Dashiva> As long as you don't get the ones involving donkeys and neon bathtubs, it's all good
  49. # [00:36] <gsnedders> I could quote the bible on donkeys penises…
  50. # [00:37] <smedero> the what on the who?
  51. # [00:37] <smedero> gotta love search query data
  52. # [00:37] <Dashiva> Just remember that once you've posted it, you can't unpost it
  53. # [00:37] <gsnedders> "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses." — Ezekiel 23:20
  54. # [00:39] <smedero> is this why you've been writing a habari fortune plug-in?
  55. # [00:40] <gsnedders> I have?
  56. # [00:40] <smedero> http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/sneddy_quote/
  57. # [00:40] <smedero> ;-)
  58. # [00:40] <gsnedders> smedero: Oh, that's just random quotes of me
  59. # [00:41] <smedero> oh good, so no donkeys then?
  60. # [00:41] <gsnedders> No, I'm not Ezekiel
  61. # [00:41] <smedero> most excellent
  62. # [00:41] <gsnedders> They're all totally out of context though
  63. # [00:43] <gsnedders> There again, that's most of the fun
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  80. # [02:02] <roc> creative use of <canvas> and <audio>: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/09/javascript-space-invaders-emulator.html
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  113. # [03:55] <Hixie> you can now click on <dfn> elements in html5
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  118. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: click-on-<dfn> thing is great
  119. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> Ted Nelson would be proud
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  123. # [05:22] <kangax> what would be the best way to draw ellipse on canvas?
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  127. # [05:36] <roc> kangax: transform a circle?
  128. # [05:36] <kangax> that's what i'm doing now
  129. # [05:37] <GregHouston> kangax: if the ellipse is the only thing you are drawing then you could just draw a circle with arc and scale it in one direction. Otherwise you might want to go with a couple bezierCurveTo()s or plot it point by point with a parametric equation.
  130. # [05:37] <kangax> would it be possible to make one with 2 bezier?
  131. # [05:37] <kangax> GregHouston: right. now i just want to find out which one would be faster
  132. # [05:41] <GregHouston> kagnax: faster for you or the browser. I couldn't say for the browser. The easiest way is going to be the scaled circle. At the bottom of this page is the parametric equation. You can use it like the spirograph example at developer.mozilla.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse
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  134. # [05:46] <kangax> GregHouston: for the browser
  135. # [05:46] <kangax> I'll go with transformed circle, thanks
  136. # [05:47] <kangax> (building svg to canvas parser)
  137. # [05:47] <GregHouston> Nice. What language is it written in?
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  139. # [05:49] <kangax> GregHouston: JS
  140. # [05:51] <kangax> It's mostly a general purpose library that makes it easy to draw basic shapes on canvas (with support for drag/drop and any affine transformations)
  141. # [05:52] <GregHouston> Do you have a blog? I would be interested in keeping tabs on it.
  142. # [05:52] <kangax> I do, but it's not related to canvas : )
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  144. # [05:53] <kangax> GregHouston: http://thinkweb2.com/projects/prototype/
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  147. # [05:58] <GregHouston> kangax: Cool. I'll add you to my feeds and see if you don't post anything about it. I wrote a function for drawing a rectangle with rounded corners if you haven't got to that one yet.
  148. # [05:58] <kangax> nice
  149. # [05:58] <kangax> haven't yet
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  151. # [06:02] <GregHouston> kangax: I pasted it here: http://paste.mootools.net/f3be6b0e8
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  154. # [06:03] <kangax> didn't know mootools have pastie
  155. # [06:03] <kangax> : )
  156. # [06:03] <GregHouston> :)
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  188. # [09:14] <Hixie> you know, when we started html5, xforms and xhtml2 provided a kind of motivation to do a good job and do it quick
  189. # [09:14] <Philip`> http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/chromium/ - ooh, an HTML5 page
  190. # [09:14] <Hixie> as competition is wont to do
  191. # [09:15] <Hixie> but our success has removed the credibility from those efforts
  192. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I guess Flash and Silverlight provide a little more motivation
  193. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> or even Gears
  194. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> especially now that we have a competing browser with built-in Gears support
  195. # [09:21] <takkaria> Philip`: HTML5 with XHTML talismans, too :)
  196. # [09:21] <othermaciej> I'm not worried about XHTML2 but I am worried about the open web platform vs. proprietary alternatives
  197. # [09:21] <othermaciej> and I am not even so afraid of that (not as much as roc anyway)
  198. # [09:22] <takkaria> ugh, another +1 post on public-html
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  201. # [09:25] <Hixie> the problem with flash and silverlight is that they're competitors to the overall platform, not to html5 specifically
  202. # [09:25] <Philip`> othermaciej: Are you not so afraid because you don't think it's so likely, or because you don't think it's so bad if a better (but proprietary) alternative wins?
  203. # [09:25] * Hixie isn't worried as much as he was because of the former
  204. # [09:26] <othermaciej> Philip`: I don't think it's so likely
  205. # [09:26] <hsivonen> It's sad that in this day and age, *anyone* can launch a new Flash-like thing
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  207. # [09:26] <hsivonen> i.e. Silverlight
  208. # [09:26] <othermaciej> I feel like Flash is close to peaking, and I doubt Silverlight will see much some success in the grand scheme of things
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  210. # [09:26] <hsivonen> though I am hoping that Silverlight scares Adobe enough for them to open-source all parts of Flash that are licensable by Adobe
  211. # [09:27] <othermaciej> and I think Google is sensitive enough to criticism that native web platform features will mostly obsolete Gears (or reduce it to an IE uncripplement add-on)
  212. # [09:28] <hsivonen> also, I'm wondering about the strategic smartness of the whole Novell Mono thing
  213. # [09:28] <hsivonen> though things could be different if OpenJDK had arrived earlier
  214. # [09:29] <hsivonen> now it's like Mono tries to rescue legacy Java code to run on it
  215. # [09:29] <hsivonen> instead of OpenJDK rescuing legacy C# code
  216. # [09:29] <othermaciej> wait, what?
  217. # [09:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you can use ikvm.net to run Eclipse on Mono
  218. # [09:30] <othermaciej> it translates JVM bytecode to MSIL?
  219. # [09:30] <hsivonen> but as far as I'm aware, there isn't a viable project that allowed one to take a C# project on bring it over to the JVM
  220. # [09:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: either bytecode or Java source
  221. # [09:31] <hsivonen> but to come to back to the Web relevance of Mono
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  223. # [09:31] <hsivonen> it seems to me that Moonlight is helping Silverlight when it's done so early
  224. # [09:31] <othermaciej> it definitely is
  225. # [09:32] <Philip`> That's kind of its intention
  226. # [09:32] <othermaciej> Miguel has a weird love of Microsoft technologies
  227. # [09:33] <Hixie> to be fair, C# and .Net are pretty solid technologies, from a purely technical perspective
  228. # [09:33] <Hixie> i mean they're not perfect by any means
  229. # [09:33] <Hixie> but they compare pretty favourably compared to the rest of the industry's best efforts
  230. # [09:34] <Hixie> i don't think they're overly suitable for the web
  231. # [09:34] <Hixie> and i think their microsoft pedigree and lack of truly open development process are fatal flaws, though
  232. # [09:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to me that giving control of the GNU platform direction to MS isn't a good idea
  233. # [09:35] <Hixie> oh i don't think mono is strategically sound
  234. # [09:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd prefer to get the good stuff from C# bolted onto Java even if it meant some more warts
  235. # [09:36] <Hixie> i'm not a big java fan myself, i'd rather have many different languages available
  236. # [09:36] <Hixie> but that's besides the point
  237. # [09:37] <hsivonen> the problem is that there are only two big multi-language server-side VMs
  238. # [09:37] <hsivonen> I'm not expecting Parrot to rock the market
  239. # [09:37] <hsivonen> but on the client side, the approach GWT is taking is *very* interesting
  240. # [09:37] <hsivonen> I'd like to see that for more languages
  241. # [09:37] <hsivonen> particularly Python
  242. # [09:37] <Hixie> the mono effort could have been strategically sound -- and still could be, actually -- if they used a slightly different path
  243. # [09:38] <Hixie> if they can get enough critical mass of people moving in both directions (mono <-> .net) then they could start introducing "innovations"
  244. # [09:38] <hsivonen> It seems to me that the direction the client VM is going is better for concurrency than the direction the JVM went
  245. # [09:38] <othermaciej> JS implementations (other than IE) are getting fast enough that compiling to JS might not be totally insane
  246. # [09:38] <Hixie> i.e. embrace-and-extend
  247. # [09:39] <hsivonen> that is, running normal-looking (not erlang) language with workers instead of shared-memory threads
  248. # [09:39] <Hixie> and that would end up forcing microsoft's hand a bit with silverlight
  249. # [09:39] <Hixie> which would make it harder for them to abuse the platform
  250. # [09:39] <Hixie> but as i understand it right now mono is just playing follow-the-leader with mono in the role of follower
  251. # [09:39] <Hixie> anyway
  252. # [09:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: isn't that basically what v8 does?
  253. # [09:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh, you mean compiling _to_ js
  254. # [09:40] <Hixie> s/mean/said/
  255. # [09:40] <Hixie> i read just "compiling js"
  256. # [09:41] * Joins: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org)
  257. # [09:43] <Hixie> i wonder who the +1 posts are intended for
  258. # [09:50] * Joins: harig (n=harig_in@213.236.208.247)
  259. # [09:51] <othermaciej> every JS implementation "compiles" in some sense
  260. # [09:52] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  263. # [10:03] <hsivonen> has Google announced anything about <video> in Chrome or Android WebKit?
  264. # [10:03] <othermaciej> I have not heard announcements but I believe <video> does not work in Chrome currently
  265. # [10:04] <othermaciej> it has the Safari 3.1 featureset in the engine minus (at least) @font-face, <video>, text-shadow and Database
  266. # [10:04] <hsivonen> yeah, but they must have a plan
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  268. # [12:08] * Disconnected
  269. # [12:08] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  270. # [12:08] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  271. # [12:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders has green hair, photos coming really soon :-)'
  272. # [12:08] * Set by gsnedders on Sat Sep 06 19:58:04
  273. # [12:12] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  280. # [12:30] <Philip`> Surprisingly many people use the script from http://cow.neondragon.net/stuff/reflection/ (or derivatives), which uses canvas (on non-IE), so that's quite a lot of indirect canvas users
  281. # [12:31] <Philip`> (Sadly it uses "if (document.all && !window.opera)" to trigger the use of 'filter: flipv progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Alpha(...)' instead of canvas)
  282. # [12:34] <hsivonen> regarding the discussion the other day: it seems that Windows XP SP3 still doesn't install IE7 as an automatic update, but it does install it as an Express Update if you go to Windows Update and accept the defaults
  283. # [12:37] <Philip`> Is Silverlight still non-selected by default?
  284. # [12:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-243-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
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  286. # [12:41] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  287. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't see Silverlight being offered through Windows Update at all
  288. # [12:42] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  289. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Windows Update tells me to upgrade to Microsoft Update
  290. # [12:43] <hsivonen> but it's not at all clear why I, as a user, should have to make a decision between two update mechanisms
  291. # [12:45] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  292. # [12:45] <Philip`> Maybe you have to make that decision because it would be unfair for Microsoft to leverage its privileged OS-developer position to automatically provide additional services for its own non-OS products
  293. # [12:45] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  294. # [12:45] <hsivonen> I see
  295. # [12:46] <Philip`> (Or maybe that's totally wrong)
  296. # [12:47] * Joins: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org)
  297. # [12:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i'm on windows using cygwin
  298. # [12:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: are you using easy_install?
  299. # [12:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no
  300. # [12:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: in that case, I suggest trying it
  301. # [12:59] <zcorpan_> python ez_install.py
  302. # [13:00] <zcorpan_> Fishished processing dependencies for setuptools==0.6c7
  303. # [13:00] <zcorpan_> but running validator-tester.py still says ImportError: No module named simplejson
  304. # [13:01] <hsivonen> ez_setup.py should install a script names easy_install
  305. # [13:01] <hsivonen> then easy_install simplejson installs simplejson
  306. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> there's no easy_install :(
  307. # [13:02] <hsivonen> that's weird
  308. # [13:03] <hsivonen> you can get a new one from here http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/EasyInstall
  309. # [13:03] <hsivonen> (the site loads very slowly)
  310. # [13:04] <zcorpan_> thanks
  311. # [13:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-243-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  312. # [13:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-243-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  313. # [13:09] <hsivonen> validator.nu goes offline for a moment. sorry
  314. # [13:12] <hsivonen> back up
  315. # [13:16] <zcorpan_> easy_install.exe is in my Python24\Scripts directory but trying to use it doesn't work
  316. # [13:17] <hsivonen> :-(
  317. # [13:18] <Lachy> just found out there will be a WebJam on while I'm in Aus. I should try to organise a 3 minute presentation for it.
  318. # [13:18] <hsivonen> I'm completely inexperienced when it comes to troubleshooting Windows Python problems
  319. # [13:19] <Lachy> zcorpan_, it probably means that the directory isn't in the PATH environment variable
  320. # [13:19] <zcorpan_> Lachy: i added it to PATH... do i need to restart cmd for it to start working?
  321. # [13:19] <Lachy> yes
  322. # [13:19] <zcorpan_> ah
  323. # [13:20] <Lachy> you could just type echo %PATH% and see if it was really in it
  324. # [13:21] <Lachy> aargh, I hate how Windows update sometimes installs critical updates and then does a restart without even asking. Especially, when I'm not around to stop it!
  325. # [13:21] <zcorpan_> it worked after i did echo %PATH% but not before
  326. # [13:22] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a27da9e182306672)
  327. # [13:23] <zcorpan_> ok simplejson is installed
  328. # [13:24] <Lachy> hmm, maybe I should get http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/ finished and present that at WebJam, since it will have a lot of nice features for web developers
  329. # [13:24] <Philip`> Lachy: Set it to ask before installing updates, and then it won't do it silently
  330. # [13:24] <Philip`> (It'll still force you to reboot after the installation, though)
  331. # [13:24] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm sure I have
  332. # [13:25] <Philip`> Oh
  333. # [13:25] <Lachy> ah, crap. That machine was still set to automatic :-(
  334. # [13:25] <Lachy> fixed now
  335. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> or i think it was installed... but validator-tester.py still says it's missing
  336. # [13:26] <zcorpan_> Lachy: you can stop the automatic updates service to make it not reboot
  337. # [13:27] <Philip`> zcorpan_: You could just copy simplejson's .py files into the right place, and not bother with the whole installation setup thing
  338. # [13:27] <Philip`> (It has a _speedups.so (or .dll or whatever) too but that appears to be optional)
  339. # [13:27] <didymos> Lachy, I experienced that same thing yesterday, and it was a bit annoying, because I was in the middle of a conversation, and couldn't take the time to disable it
  340. # [13:27] <zcorpan_> Philip`: which .py files and where's the right place?
  341. # [13:27] <didymos> so I just had to click 'later' everytime it tried to restart
  342. # [13:28] <BenMillard> didymos, I have the same experience. To me, the "later" button should mean "when I decide to do it myself".
  343. # [13:29] <didymos> BenMillard, certainly
  344. # [13:29] <Philip`> zcorpan_: The really lazy way is to copy the 'simplejson' directory from http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/s/simplejson/simplejson-1.9.2.tar.gz into the directory you're running Python from, and I think then it should pick it up properly
  345. # [13:29] <BenMillard> rather than "bug me again about this in 5 minutes, then do it of your own accord if I'm not here when you ask, losing all my unsaved work for me".
  346. # [13:30] <didymos> unfortunately, it seems they have to go for the lowest common denominator, if they want it to be installed on non-techie users' machines
  347. # [13:30] <BenMillard> didymos, I doubt non-techies leave their machines running for many days in a row
  348. # [13:30] <BenMillard> didymos, so interpreting "later" as I describe would be fine on non-technie machines, since they don't run for that long at a time anywy.
  349. # [13:30] <didymos> good point, although I have a case to prove you wrong, but in theory I believe you'd be right ;)
  350. # [13:31] <Philip`> BenMillard: Now that Vista's hidden the 'power off' button, I'd guess many people just suspend or hibernate it and never actually reboot
  351. # [13:31] <didymos> BenMillard, my mother has a laptop in the kitchen, which she leaves on so she can get to it fast -- it can easily run for weeks in a row
  352. # [13:31] <zcorpan_> wonder if Python24 is the right directory because i have python 2.5
  353. # [13:31] <Philip`> particularly on laptops where you just shut the lid and it'll happily suspend itself for days
  354. # [13:32] <didymos> exactly
  355. # [13:32] <zcorpan_> how do i figure out which directory my python is running from
  356. # [13:32] <Philip`> zcorpan_: 'which python'
  357. # [13:33] <Philip`> (assuming Cygwin with suitable packages installed)
  358. # [13:33] <zcorpan_> Philip`: /usr/bin/python
  359. # [13:34] <Lachy> ideally, computers should never need to reboot to apply a patch. They should just apply hot patches to everything
  360. # [13:34] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Is that a symlink to a python2.x file?
  361. # [13:34] <Philip`> (ls -l /usr/bin/python)
  362. # [13:34] <didymos> Lachy, Steve Yegge, I believe? :)
  363. # [13:35] <didymos> at least he said it at some point
  364. # [13:35] <Philip`> Lachy: The problem with that is that it can get extremely complicated, particularly if you care about efficiency in the normal not-applying-patches state
  365. # [13:35] <zcorpan_> wait is it my cygwin/bin directory?
  366. # [13:36] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It's probably cygwin/usr/bin
  367. # [13:36] <Philip`> (in the Windows view of the filesystem)
  368. # [13:36] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ok
  369. # [13:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: it's empty but i'll try pasting the simplejson directory there
  370. # [13:37] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  371. # [13:37] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Oh, no
  372. # [13:37] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I meant the directory which you are in when you run Python, not the directory which the Python you run is in
  373. # [13:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ah
  374. # [13:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  375. # [13:38] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Ah, if cygwin/usr/bin is empty then I guess /usr/bin (which sounds non-empty) must be somewhere else, but I don't know where
  376. # [13:39] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a27da9e182306672)
  377. # [13:39] * Joins: roc_ (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  378. # [13:40] <virtuelv> is Cameron McCormack usually present on IRC?
  379. # [13:40] <zcorpan_> ok now i got a different error running validator-tester.py
  380. # [13:40] <Philip`> zcorpan_: That sounds promising
  381. # [13:40] <Lachy> virtuelv, that's heycam
  382. # [13:42] <zcorpan_> in dumpReference simplejson.dump({uri:self.database[uri]}, handle, cls=ValidationErrorMessageEncoder, sort_keys=True)
  383. # [13:43] <virtuelv> Lachy: thanks
  384. # [13:46] <Philip`> zcorpan_: What is the error message there?
  385. # [13:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: do you have an up-to-date svn checkout?
  386. # [13:46] <zcorpan_> Philip`: KeyError: 'http://simon.html5.org/test/validator/character-encoding/non-ascii.html'
  387. # [13:47] <hsivonen> that line should now read simplejson.dump({uri:self.database[uri]}, handle, cls=ValidationErrorMessageEncoder, sort_keys=True, indent=2)
  388. # [13:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I think it throws a key error if you don't have the URI you gave it already in the database
  389. # [13:48] <hsivonen> the database being a file called db.json in the working directory by default
  390. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: aha
  391. # [13:49] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  392. # [13:50] <zcorpan_> i should be using dumpuri
  393. # [13:57] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: but if i write a test, don't you need to add it to your database?
  394. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: so i can just point to a testcase in a bug report and when you have fixed the bug you do adduri and i don't have to get this working
  395. # [14:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes. so I'd need you to send me your db.json file (preferable containing tests only form you) so I can merge it in
  396. # [14:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that would work, too
  397. # [14:02] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok. then i won't spend more time trying to get it working :)
  398. # [14:03] <hsivonen> OK. sorry about not thinking about this before
  399. # [14:03] <zcorpan_> that's ok
  400. # [14:05] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: your sniffer is still looking at 512 bytes right?
  401. # [14:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes
  402. # [14:05] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you think it will continue to do so?
  403. # [14:06] <hsivonen> I think it will continue to look for n bytes where n is likely to be 512 or 1024 depending on what Hixie puts in the spec
  404. # [14:06] <hsivonen> 512 is a good guess
  405. # [14:06] <hsivonen> though IIRC, WebKit switched to 1024
  406. # [14:06] * Philip` suggests 768
  407. # [14:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: jokingly or seriously?
  408. # [14:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: I'm just trying to be awkward
  409. # [14:08] <Philip`> I presume "one packet" could be the most sensible thing for a browser to use, rather than a fixed number of bytes, in terms of being able to render the page as quickly as possible - maybe it'd be interesting to work out how many bytes of content do fit in the first packet...
  410. # [14:08] * Quits: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  411. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: my sniffer works with blocking Java IO
  412. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: so I don't see packets
  413. # [14:10] <hsivonen> Implementations where the network layer pushes data to parser could be different
  414. # [14:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: Your abstractions need more leaks
  415. # [14:11] <Philip`> although I suppose it's Java's abstractions in that case
  416. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> now ftp won't connect
  417. # [14:11] <hsivonen> I couldn't follow the Gecko source on this topic with full confidence, but I think it scans the first packet
  418. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: If I wrote a NIO driver and if NIO can be told to push data on a per packet basis, then it would be doable
  419. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: but SAX assumes IO--not NIO
  420. # [14:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: the Validator.nu HTML Parser core assumes neither and, by design, fits a NIO/Gecko-like IO setup as well
  421. # [14:20] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@78.146.195.75)
  422. # [14:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I implemented the <rp> spec literally without allowing space characters around the paren
  423. # [14:24] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  424. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> Lachy: could you use a different favicon? my brain thinks that the html5 tools tab is the spec
  425. # [14:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4e2775aaf89c7353)
  426. # [14:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  427. # [14:40] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-104-60.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  428. # [14:44] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  429. # [14:45] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g230129112.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")
  430. # [14:46] <Philip`> Looks like the mean HTTP header size (from a very small sample from dmoz.org) is around 290 bytes (and the median is 260, and very few are above ~500)
  431. # [14:46] <Philip`> so you should get at least a kilobyte of content in the first packet
  432. # [14:46] <Lachy> zcorpan_, ok
  433. # [14:46] <Lachy> zcorpan_, any suggestions for what I should use?
  434. # [14:46] <Philip`> (Interestingly enough, Google seems to send 1418 byte TCP packets, whereas everyone else sends 1448 bytes)
  435. # [14:47] <zcorpan_> Lachy: anything but the whatwg icon. no icon wfm :)
  436. # [14:47] <zcorpan_> Lachy: don't you have one for you blog?
  437. # [14:47] <Lachy> no
  438. # [14:47] <Lachy> I need one though
  439. # [14:47] <Lachy> I'll remove it for now, and replace it later
  440. # [14:47] <zcorpan_> ok
  441. # [14:47] <Philip`> Use the Space Invaders favicon
  442. # [14:48] <Philip`> Oops, it was Defender
  443. # [14:49] <Lachy> done
  444. # [14:49] <Lachy> I'll find an icon of some tools or something
  445. # [14:52] <Lachy> I need to figure out how to set up my localhost server to use custom .localhost domains (or whatever) so they can mirror my web server better
  446. # [14:53] <Lachy> some of the things are broken in my local copy because I have paths like http://localhost/html5.lachy.id.au/ and that page has non-relative paths like "/script/...", which break
  447. # [14:54] <Philip`> You could run each on a different port
  448. # [14:54] <Lachy> yeah, maybe. I'll have to figure out how to get MAMP to do that
  449. # [14:54] <Philip`> (and multiple servers, rather than one server with virtual hosts)
  450. # [14:55] <Lachy> I'd have have a domain like http://html5.lachy.id.au.local/ or something
  451. # [14:55] <BenMillard> Lachy, I use Apache with <virtualhost> in the httpd.conf to produce http://calthorpe.local/ and http://ben.local/ and so forth
  452. # [14:55] <BenMillard> Apache as part of the WAMP package, I mean.
  453. # [14:55] <Lachy> ok, I can probably set that up
  454. # [14:55] <Lachy> yeah, apache is in MAMP too
  455. # [14:56] <BenMillard> <VirtualHost 127.0.0.1>
  456. # [14:56] <BenMillard> DocumentRoot "C:\Program Files\WAMP\www\ben"
  457. # [14:56] <BenMillard> ServerName ben.local
  458. # [14:56] <BenMillard> </VirtualHost>
  459. # [14:56] <BenMillard> is one of them
  460. # [14:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  461. # [14:57] <BenMillard> oh, you have to edit the "hosts" file if your on Windows so the "ben.local" part works
  462. # [14:57] <BenMillard> e.g.: 127.0.0.1 ben.local
  463. # [14:57] <Lachy> yeah, I knew about the hosts file
  464. # [14:58] * Quits: roc_ (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  465. # [14:58] <BenMillard> Lachy, ok I'll leave you to it. :)
  466. # [14:58] <Lachy> apparently MAMP Pro offers easy setup of virtual hosts like that
  467. # [14:58] <Philip`> Raw Apache httpd.conf offers easy setup like that :-)
  468. # [14:58] <Lachy> but it seems rather expensive. I'll see if I can set it up manually myself instead
  469. # [14:58] <Philip`> and is free
  470. # [14:59] <Lachy> yeah, I'm not paying about $75 for something I can do myself for free
  471. # [15:01] <Philip`> With that kind of attitude, why are you a Mac user? :-p
  472. # [15:04] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  473. # [15:04] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  474. # [15:08] <Lachy> Philip`, because there are no decent alternatives
  475. # [15:12] * zcorpan_ briefly scans through http://www.w3.org/mid/2d509b1b0809101646y4bbda2f9k56474ee3cd72003d@mail.gmail.com
  476. # [15:13] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  477. # [15:13] * hsivonen notes the TOC doesn't use HTML lists
  478. # [15:14] <hsivonen> I guess that counts as a failure of HTML/CSS to produce the wanted result reliably
  479. # [15:15] <takkaria> "To facilitate independent evolution of producers and consumers, languages in distributed systems should be Extensible."
  480. # [15:15] <takkaria> (from Dave Orchard's post)
  481. # [15:15] <takkaria> surely producers that produce something that consumers don't understand doesn't help anyone, so independent evolution isn't helpful in the slightest
  482. # [15:16] <BenMillard> hsivonen, numbered lists with decimal places are faked in a variety of ways.
  483. # [15:16] <Philip`> Producers that produce something not all consumers understand still helps the consumers that do understand it
  484. # [15:18] <Philip`> though I suppose that's not "independent evolution", since at least some consumers would have to evolve to understand exactly what the producers produce
  485. # [15:18] <BenMillard> hsivonen, maybe <li value> should just allow any string, like <li value="3.2"> or <li value="2a">? Or maybe <ol type> should have a couple more values to do this automatically...
  486. # [15:19] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: you could use <ul><li>3.2
  487. # [15:20] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, that's one of the ways I see it faked.
  488. # [15:20] <BenMillard> layout tables and &nbsp; with <br> are others
  489. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> <ul> seems better
  490. # [15:21] <BenMillard> yes, but <ol> with the desired markers (by some method) seems best. :)
  491. # [15:21] <zcorpan_> why?
  492. # [15:23] <BenMillard> firstly, <ol> is a closer match to the content than <ul> (unless we think <ol> is a pointless element)
  493. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> are markers searchable?
  494. # [15:24] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  495. # [15:24] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, wait...are you asking whether <ol> is at all useful?
  496. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: no i'm asking whether it's useful for TOCs
  497. # [15:26] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, since TOCs are just a numbered list of links, <ol> seems as useful for them as it is any other numbered list (whether it has links or not).
  498. # [15:27] <Lachy> cool, I got the virtual hosts to work. That was easy
  499. # [15:27] <zcorpan_> but for a TOC you want 1, 2, 2.1, 2.2, and not 1, 2, 1, 2
  500. # [15:27] <zcorpan_> and it's nice to be able to search for "2.1"
  501. # [15:27] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I've seen TOCs with either
  502. # [15:28] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I see no reason for browsers to make list markers non-searchable
  503. # [15:28] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: file a bug :)
  504. # [15:29] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I don't search for section numbers in TOCs, so I don't mind either way.
  505. # [15:29] <BenMillard> but if you want it to work, I guess you should indeed file a bug.
  506. # [15:30] <zcorpan_> searching works for me since specs i care about use <ul> :)
  507. # [15:32] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, searching also works in the ones that fake it with &nbsp; or layout tables.
  508. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: yes but i imagine they are less usable with ATs
  509. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> but i could be wrong
  510. # [15:34] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, using <ul> for a numbered list produces bullets and numbers when author CSS is disabled or overridden by user CSS.
  511. # [15:35] <Philip`> http://timepedia.org/chronoscope/ is an interesting use of GWT + <canvas>
  512. # [15:35] <BenMillard> and using the semantics of <ul> when a TOC is better matches by <ol> means any device which makes use of those semantics might be getting short-changed (such as what announcements you get in screenreaders or in a Braille output, maybe)
  513. # [15:36] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, something like <ol type="decimal-compound"> (or something along those lines) could avoid authors having to type in all the section names
  514. # [15:37] <BenMillard> and it doesn't rely on CSS and does have the <ol> semantics which best fit a TOC
  515. # [15:38] <Philip`> They'd still have to type the section numbers into the section <h2>s, though
  516. # [15:38] <Philip`> and if those are entered manually while the TOC is numbered automatically, they're more likely to get out of sync
  517. # [15:38] <Philip`> Section numbering is an outdated concept in a world of hyperlinks, anyway :-p
  518. # [15:40] <BenMillard> Philip`, for that to happen the TOC would have to differ from the sections in the document, so the TOC would be wrong anyway
  519. # [15:41] <Philip`> BenMillard: Indeed, but the effects of an error could be localised, rather than cascading through the rest of the TOC and destroying all of the numbers
  520. # [15:42] <BenMillard> Philip`, I agree that authors would still have to type into the headings and when making references within the document.
  521. # [15:43] <BenMillard> the error would only cascade to siblings that came after it and the descendents, AFAICT
  522. # [15:43] <BenMillard> and if the TOC isn't matching the document, making that error as obvious as possible actually seems like an asset to me :P
  523. # [15:46] <BenMillard> s/better matches/better matched/
  524. # [15:46] <Philip`> This is HTML, not XHTML - errors are meant to be papered over, not made as obvious as possible :-p
  525. # [15:46] <BenMillard> s/all the section names/all the section numbers/
  526. # [15:50] <BenMillard> time for lunch...
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  531. # [16:12] <hsivonen> http://html5.validator.nu/ now supports ruby
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  534. # [16:19] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.city.kawasaki.jp%2F25%2F25zinken%2Fhome%2Fkidspage%2F seems to work, at least in the sense that it's only complaining about <rb>
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  536. # [16:21] <Philip`> It would be user-friendlier if the validator recognised <rb> and gave an informative message like "You're not allowed to use <rb> and have to go to loads of effort to remove it from all your pages, because it has no effect and we don't want to allow it like we allow xmlns and xml:lang and trailing slashes"
  537. # [16:22] <Philip`> otherwise people will have no idea why it's suddenly become an error
  538. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: or we could allow it as a talisman
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  540. # [16:22] <Philip`> hsivonen: That too
  541. # [16:23] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Spotlight/2135/ seems to fail at encoding sniffing
  542. # [16:23] <zcorpan_> ruby isn't used much though, is it? and <rb> even less
  543. # [16:23] <zcorpan_> (compared to xmlns and xml:lang)
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  545. # [16:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: and that page there gets error reports on line 0, which doesn't exist
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  547. # [16:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: Also, the "show source" view has something totally bogus on line 45 that isn't in the real source
  548. # [16:25] <Philip`> (It says: "http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Spotlight/2135/2pigpigsan.jpg", "tiiojpol "http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Spotlight/2135/2pigpigsan2.jpg",↩)
  549. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: the validator doesn't run heuristic sniffing (parsetree does)
  550. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: should the validator run a heuristic sniffer, too?
  551. # [16:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  552. # [16:27] <hsivonen> line 45 is certainly interesting
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  554. # [16:28] * zcorpan_ ponders about "Error: The font element is obsolete." vs "Error: Element rb not allowed as child of element ruby in this context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.)" in <RUBY><RB><FONT face="ＭＳ Ｐゴシック">区役所</F
  555. # [16:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the implementations are different
  556. # [16:28] <hsivonen> should I give <rb> the <font> treatment?
  557. # [16:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: It would make the output more useful if it didn't let one error (lack of explicit encoding) cause the rest of the error report to become unreadable, since maybe people have a good reason for not fixing the first error (e.g. they're not the site author and can't fix it straight away) but they'll still want to know about subsequent errors
  558. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: seems reasonable if <rb> is used enough to care
  559. # [16:29] <hsivonen> now I'm most immediately curious about line 45
  560. # [16:30] <Philip`> zcorpan_: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0620.html - 0.3% of the .jp pages use ruby, and I think most (or at least many) of those use <rb>
  561. # [16:30] <hsivonen> the unmappably byte sequence errors repeat themselves
  562. # [16:31] <zcorpan_> i get var args = 6 * div;↩ on line 45
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  564. # [16:33] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ok
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  569. # [16:38] <Philip`> zcorpan_: That's the right line but the wrong page
  570. # [16:39] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It was http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.co.jp%2FHollywood-Spotlight%2F2135%2F&showsource=yes#l45 but now that looks correct to me
  571. # [16:40] <hsivonen> there has to be something very wrong with the show source code
  572. # [16:40] <hsivonen> something that depends on how buffer boundaries fall
  573. # [16:40] <hsivonen> sigh
  574. # [16:41] <hsivonen> why can't show source ever just be easy
  575. # [16:41] * Parts: codedread (n=schiller@c-24-13-43-191.hsd1.il.comcast.net) ("Konversation terminated!")
  576. # [16:42] <Philip`> It is easy: slurp the whole HTTP response into a string, then parse and validate and print it out again :-)
  577. # [16:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: can't slurp without the parser figuring out the encoding
  578. # [16:44] <Philip`> s/string/byte buffer/
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  581. # [16:52] <hsivonen> well, the code I used for calculating the UTF-16-level line and col when a byte-level error occurs was utterly bogus now that the tokenizer has undergone notable changes
  582. # [16:53] <hsivonen> and that caused assertions to be violated in the show source package
  583. # [16:54] <takkaria> I do worry a bit about adding parse error reporting to Hubbub and how much that'll complicate things
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  585. # [16:55] <hsivonen> takkaria: error reporting as such is not bad
  586. # [16:55] <hsivonen> takkaria: approximate error locations aren't bad
  587. # [16:56] * Philip` would typically prefer a fast parser that doesn't report errors, since he's usually parsing other people's junk and doesn't care as long as it works as quickly as possible
  588. # [16:56] <hsivonen> takkaria: error locations that are good enough for the kind of lighlighting that Validator.nu does are a major PITA
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  592. # [17:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: I've been toying with the idea of having a preprecessor for removing error reporting code and source location tracking code
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  595. # [17:03] <Philip`> hsivonen: Would that be better than having the error reporting code etc being in methods in a class which you can switch for a minimal stub implementation class, and then let the JVM inline all the stub methods and eliminate the dead code?
  596. # [17:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: the location tracking code goes pretty intimately in the hottest method of the tokenizer
  597. # [17:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, I don't want too many Javaisms so that the code can be mechanically translated to C++ without having to use virtual methods
  598. # [17:05] <Philip`> Could you write two implementations of that hottest method, one without the location tracking, and choose which one to use at runtime?
  599. # [17:05] <Philip`> ...using virtual method calls
  600. # [17:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: It has crossed my mind but only recently
  601. # [17:05] <Philip`> In C++ you can just use templates - they solve all problems
  602. # [17:06] <hsivonen> "now you have two problems" :-)
  603. # [17:07] <Philip`> But now they're more fun problems
  604. # [17:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: but you are right, I could make the Tokenizer parametrized by a buffer management class using generics in Java and make the parametrization templatized in C++
  605. # [17:09] <Philip`> (Except for the problem that compile times become huge, which is never fun)
  606. # [17:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: but then, mechanical translation to C++ already needs to mung stuff, so...
  607. # [17:09] <Philip`> Oh, I hadn't thought of generics
  608. # [17:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: no point in using generics for this expect to make it use the <foo> syntax in both languages
  609. # [17:10] <Philip`> (probably because they're boring and don't let you do anything you couldn't do before - C++ templates are much more exciting)
  610. # [17:13] <hsivonen> aargh. I have to deal with CRLF again
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  614. # [17:20] <hsivonen> CRLF is such a pain
  615. # [17:21] <jmb> yes
  616. # [17:24] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: hmm. what are the intended html4-only errors? xmlns, xml:lang, />, </x in rcdata...
  617. # [17:25] <zcorpan_> unquoted attributes with special characters
  618. # [17:25] <zcorpan_> non-boolean empty attributes
  619. # [17:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that seems about right, except there's an open bug (from you) about xmlns and />
  620. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yeah i know, i'm writing tests for it :)
  621. # [17:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I started fixing that bug, but then this more immediate show source bug came up
  622. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  623. # [17:28] <hsivonen> (crazy show source stuff must be fixed while the Web remains constant, because even taking a local copy changes buffering)
  624. # [17:29] <Philip`> (Do you have a way of writing test cases that trigger buffer-handling bugs?)
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  626. # [17:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't.
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  628. # [17:32] <hsivonen> ok. now I have the bytes-to-UTF-16 line and col counting fixed
  629. # [17:32] <hsivonen> or so I think
  630. # [17:33] <hsivonen> but an assertion still fires in show source...
  631. # [17:37] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: hmm wouldn't it be good if the tests had a pass condition? "there should be no errors"
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  633. # [17:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I don't understand the question
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  635. # [17:41] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: wouldn't it be good if the test file said whether an error is expected or no errors are expected? e.g. <!doctype html><title></title><p>There should be no errors.
  636. # [17:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, that would be good
  637. # [17:43] <zcorpan_> added pass conditions
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  689. # [20:45] <Lachy> I don't get why a separate wiki page had to be created on the W3C wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty
  690. # [20:46] <Lachy> it just puts the info in 2 places instead of one, and the ESW wiki sucks
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  692. # [20:50] <Lachy> looks like some people still don't understand what use cases are :-(
  693. # [20:50] <Dashiva> The use case is getting your pet feature into the spec :P
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  707. # [21:57] <Lachy> Using the ESW wiki, how do you markup code samples?
  708. # [22:02] <Lachy> damn, I hate the ESW wiki, when there are edit conflicts :-(
  709. # [22:02] <Lachy> in fact, I just hate the ESW wiki alogether
  710. # [22:03] <Lachy> *altogether
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  713. # [22:17] <smedero> Lachy: ESW is a MoinMoin wiki I believe.
  714. # [22:17] <smedero> so I think you can do {{{inline code}}}
  715. # [22:17] <smedero> or `inline code`
  716. # [22:17] <Lachy> smedero, yeah, I found that out by looking at another page
  717. # [22:17] <virtuelv> I hate wiki syntax
  718. # [22:17] <smedero> um, blocks are
  719. # [22:17] <smedero> oh ok
  720. # [22:17] <smedero> sorry
  721. # [22:18] <Lachy> virtuelv, me too. But atleast I'm relatively familiar with MediaWiki syntax
  722. # [22:18] <Lachy> and MediaWiki allows people to edit specific sections instead of the whole page, which reduces the chance of conflicts
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  725. # [22:25] <Lachy> aargh! Laura Carlson just went and removed everything
  726. # [22:25] <Lachy> I wrote on the wiki
  727. # [22:26] <Lachy> ok, well, that's the *last time* I use the ESW WIki. I'm off to add the real info the the WHATWG wiki
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  731. # [22:27] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
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  734. # [22:38] <Lachy> I suppose I should have realised this would happen. The same thing happened when I once tried to fix the so-called "Use Cases" on the LongdescRetention page a long time ago
  735. # [22:40] <smedero> "Reinstaing Lachlan's lost the use case"
  736. # [22:40] <smedero> is the last change...
  737. # [22:40] <smedero> but that's not quite what you intended...
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  740. # [22:42] <Lachy> well, that's good. But it's still listing descriptions of disabilities as use cases
  741. # [22:43] <Lachy> and it doesn't include the authoring and end user requirements section. It just goes straight to the proposed solutions, which starts with a requirement, not a solution
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  750. # [23:05] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/48C979AD.1040904@aptest.com
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  752. # [23:05] <Lachy> I get internal server error from that
  753. # [23:05] <smedero> ditto
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  755. # [23:11] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm guessing that email is from Shane McCarron based on the message ID, but I can't see it on any of the obvious mailing lists that he posts to
  756. # [23:11] <Hixie> www-tag
  757. # [23:12] <othermaciej> tritto
  758. # [23:12] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Sep/0037.html
  759. # [23:13] <hober> yeah, I facepalmed when reading that.
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  761. # [23:15] <Lachy> I don't understand what he's trying to say
  762. # [23:15] <roc> what am I afraid of?
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  764. # [23:19] <Dashiva> commitment?
  765. # [23:19] <Lachy> roc, spiders?
  766. # [23:19] <Lachy> snakes?
  767. # [23:19] <gsnedders> me?
  768. # [23:19] <Lachy> I don't know. Why are we playing this game?
  769. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Lachy: from my reading, a CURIE is wholly equivalent to a IRI
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  771. # [23:21] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Where are you reading that?
  772. # [23:21] <gsnedders> "The value space for CURIE is IRI."
  773. # [23:22] <Dashiva> That's syntactically, not semantically
  774. # [23:23] <Dashiva> (and also the problem)
  775. # [23:23] <Lachy> he may have meant semantically, since a CURIE is just a shorter, less useful, IRI abstraction mechanism
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  778. # [23:25] <Dashiva> Well, the problem remains. You can't tell them apart, which is why safe CURIEs were created.
  779. # [23:25] <Lachy> I don't know what a safe CURIE is
  780. # [23:25] <gavin> roc: <othermaciej> I'm not worried about XHTML2 but I am worried about the open web platform vs. proprietary alternatives
  781. # [23:25] <gavin> <othermaciej> and I am not even so afraid of that (not as much as roc anyway)
  782. # [23:25] <roc> yeah I found the IRC logs thanks
  783. # [23:25] <Dashiva> safe_curie := '[' curie ']'
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  790. # [23:44] <Philip`> "value space" is semantic, not syntactic - the lexical space is the syntax
  791. # Session Close: Fri Sep 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)