/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 26 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:08] <Hixie> anyone know of a way i could forward a usb port from one machine to another over the network?
  4. # [00:09] <Hixie> i.e. plug in a device in one machine and have it appear on another machine as a local usb device?
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  6. # [00:19] <gavin> "usb over ip" seems to return some promising results
  7. # [00:20] <Hixie> oooh, good call
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  9. # [00:26] <Hixie> no good mac solutions it seems
  10. # [00:26] <Hixie> oh well
  11. # [00:28] <phroggy> hi! How do you guys feel about Apple's <input type="search">?
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  14. # [00:29] <phroggy> I see tons of sites using JS/CSS hacks to implement similar functionality; it seems like standardizing it should be helpful, and Apple already has a working implementation.
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  16. # [00:35] <webben> phroggy: What exactly would you require of a user agent to conform?
  17. # [00:36] <webben> phroggy: and what problem does it solve?
  18. # [00:36] <smedero> a while back lachlan & mpt also (briefly) made the case for <input type="search"> here: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-May/011367.html
  19. # [00:37] <phroggy> here's the details as I understand them: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=456229
  20. # [00:38] * othermaciej likes <input type="search">
  21. # [00:39] <othermaciej> and also placeholder
  22. # [00:39] <phroggy> I've heard that the "placeholder" option is being added to all (relevant) input types (not just search); I'm not sure if that's an official HTML 5 thing or just something Mozilla is doing.
  23. # [00:39] <othermaciej> which is separately useful even for non-search input types
  24. # [00:39] <phroggy> agreed
  25. # [00:39] <othermaciej> WebKit has placeholder on all text-like input types
  26. # [00:40] <othermaciej> some of the <input type="search> stuff duplicates more general mechanisms in WF2
  27. # [00:40] <webben> the autocomplete stuff?
  28. # [00:40] <othermaciej> I would like to deprecate them when we add the relevant WF2 stuff but not sure we can ever remove
  29. # [00:40] <othermaciej> well incremental
  30. # [00:40] <othermaciej> and the event that results
  31. # [00:40] <phroggy> that makes sense.
  32. # [00:40] <othermaciej> would be oninput
  33. # [00:40] <othermaciej> in WF2
  34. # [00:40] <webben> ah okay
  35. # [00:41] <phroggy> the main issue is, right now everybody is reinventing the wheel, and some implementations are better than others.
  36. # [00:42] <othermaciej> Mozilla sounds like they are just copying what WebKit has
  37. # [00:42] <othermaciej> so I don't think there is reinvention exactly
  38. # [00:42] <phroggy> if there were a standard way to do it in HTML, that everybody could use, then they'd just use that, and either use JS to fake compatibility with old browsers (same as they're doing now), or let old browsers have reduced functionality if that's easier.
  39. # [00:43] <phroggy> othermaciej: that Mozilla bug was something I recently submitted, when I couldn't find an existing one.
  40. # [00:43] <phroggy> I attempted to describe Apple's implementation, but that doesn't mean Mozilla is actually doing it.
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  42. # [00:43] <phroggy> I think they did say placeholder will be supported soon though.
  43. # [00:44] <webben> phroggy: Do you think devs are after the Safari functionality or the Safari look-and-feel?
  44. # [00:44] <othermaciej> phroggy: I see
  45. # [00:44] <othermaciej> I think it would probably be better to support <input type="search"> with the relevant WF2 replacement features
  46. # [00:45] <webben> phroggy: If they were offered IE-native, Fx-native, Op-native look-and-feel would they take it? Or would they continue to try to craft out the Safari look?
  47. # [00:45] <phroggy> well, one of the things Google mentioned was that they feel Safari's rounded corners would be inappropriate on Windows, so they'd like to come up with a different appearance
  48. # [00:46] <webben> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/ are two other drafts that seem relevant here.
  49. # [00:46] <webben> phroggy: Oh I suspect browser makers would make the interface look native; I'm more thinking about what site designers are trying to do.
  50. # [00:47] <phroggy> oh, I gotcha
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  52. # [00:48] <phroggy> no, I think web designers aren't too picky about the appearance, although obviously I'd expect Apple to continue making the search box on www.apple.com look the way it does today
  53. # [00:49] <webben> hmm, less certain of either :)
  54. # [00:49] <webben> I suspect the search box on www.apple.com will track Apple UI changes generally.
  55. # [00:50] <phroggy> personally I love the little magnifying glass icon - it's a bit weird that it's the "results" option that makes it appear, but having a tiny little icon like that, that I don't have to make myself, the appearance of which could be platform-specific, would be great.
  56. # [00:50] <phroggy> heh, well yeah, that's what I meant ;-)
  57. # [00:51] <roc> we already have code to style search boxes with platform-specific look
  58. # [00:51] <roc> we use it in XUL
  59. # [00:51] <webben> I'd tend to agree that being able to distinguish search inputs (I wouldn't want to be more specific than that in terms of conformance) and being able to jump to search inputs (e.g. with a quick key) would be good.
  60. # [00:52] <phroggy> yeah, Firefox uses it for things like the download window
  61. # [00:52] <webben> seems likely to make the web a lil more usable :)
  62. # [00:53] <webben> although it's possible jumping might be better helped with a container for the form as a whole (e.g. in case of search instructions).
  63. # [00:56] <phroggy> I recently implemented something where I wanted the functionality to basically work like searching in iTunes - it filters the results with each keypress. I had to experiment with using onkeypress, onkeydown, onkeyup, see what worked and what didn't
  64. # [00:59] <phroggy> I wound up using setTimeout with a 50ms delay, to make sure the value of the textbox would have changed by the time my function was called...
  65. # [01:00] <phroggy> and added code to that function to copy the value to a variable, after checking to see if it was different, to avoid repeatedly searching for the same string
  66. # [01:01] <phroggy> anyway, it just felt like I was reinventing the wheel, and probably poorly.
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  69. # [01:12] <phroggy> also, in my case, I want the little magnifying glass icon to indicate the purpose of the box, because I don't want to take the space to add a label, and using a placeholder isn't appropriate because I automatically focus on page load (so the user can immediately start typing to filter search results).
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  83. # [02:58] <phroggy> there's something I've never understood: why is target="_blank" deprecated? The official workaround is to simulate this behavior with JavaScript, which is obviously appropriate in some situations but in others just seems like reinventing the wheel.
  84. # [02:58] <Hixie> aha, the video of my talk is available internally now. should be public soon.
  85. # [02:59] <Hixie> i say "um" far too much.
  86. # [02:59] <Hixie> wonder how to work on that.
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  88. # [02:59] <Hixie> phroggy: target=_blank isn't deprecated in html5
  89. # [02:59] <phroggy> it isn't? oh good.
  90. # [02:59] <phroggy> it was in 4.01, right?
  91. # [03:00] <Hixie> target="" wasn't in HTML4 strict at all
  92. # [03:00] <phroggy> well, right...
  93. # [03:00] <phroggy> so, in 5, is it back in, or still left out?
  94. # [03:00] <Hixie> html5 has target=""
  95. # [03:00] <phroggy> "deprecated" was the wrong word, I suppose.
  96. # [03:00] <Hixie> in general though i strongly recommend against using target="" at all, creating new windows for the user is not a good experience
  97. # [03:00] <phroggy> it can be.
  98. # [03:01] <Hixie> should be the user's choice imho
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  100. # [03:01] <Hixie> i basically just stop using sites that think they know better than me when to open windows
  101. # [03:02] <phroggy> for example, I'm making a contact directory where I ask the user for various things like their MySpace/Facebook/LiveJournal names, or the URL to their home page or whatever, and on the confirmation screen I offer these as URLs they can check. I believe it would be totally inappropriate for these to open in the same window/tab.
  102. # [03:04] <phroggy> it should be the user's choice whether to open them in a new window or a new tab, but navigating away from the current page is not desirable. Obviously I use target="_blank" very sparingly, but simulating it with JavaScript (as was recommended by W3C for 4.01 Strict) is just ridiculous.
  103. # [03:17] <Hixie> if i was on that page, i would expect the links to open on the same page and to use the back button to return to the form
  104. # [03:17] <Hixie> and it would piss me off if a new tab or window opened
  105. # [03:17] <Hixie> to the point of not using the site again
  106. # [03:21] <phroggy> except that this is the result of a POST form, and some browsers don't like to cache those.
  107. # [03:23] <phroggy> I believe that most of my users would find your preferred behavior disruptive. Obviously I could be mistaken.
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  109. # [03:40] <phroggy> Hixie: what's your opinion of <input type="search">?
  110. # [03:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, we're publicly claiming full pass of Acid3 now, I hope enough time has passed that the test won't change again
  111. # [03:40] <othermaciej> also I don't know if you or anyone else intends to officially verify
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  144. # [07:25] <BenMillard> phroggy, I would also expect those links to be normal links, but I'd probably open each one in a new background tab since I'd only need to see the page title to confirm it's the right page.
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  152. # [07:49] <karlUshi> annevk2: here?
  153. # [07:49] <karlUshi> I have a simple question about html5lib
  154. # [07:50] * Kuruma__ is now known as Kuruma1
  155. # [07:50] <karlUshi> Does the serializer drop the elements which are not authorized by the HTML 5 content model?
  156. # [07:50] <karlUshi> such as center for example
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  159. # [08:00] <Hixie> phroggy: i like type=search
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  161. # [08:06] <karlUshi> hmm interesting
  162. # [08:06] <karlUshi> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/trunk/?r=947#trunk/python/src/html5lib/serializer%3Fstate%3Dclosed
  163. # [08:07] <karlUshi> I'm looking at the code of the serializer and it doesn't seem to clean up elements which are not included in the content model
  164. # [08:07] <karlUshi> which would make them non conformant HTML 5 "writer"
  165. # [08:07] <karlUshi> s/them/it/
  166. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: that's not the responsibility of a serializer, though, is it?
  167. # [08:10] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: well it depends what you mean by serializer.
  168. # [08:10] <Hixie> BenMillard: is there any documentation on exactly what the smart headers algorithm is and exactly how it differs from the "smart headers"-based algorithm in the spec
  169. # [08:10] <karlUshi> if the role of the serializer is to output an *HTML 5 document*
  170. # [08:11] <karlUshi> I would say that it should remove the obsolete elements. no?
  171. # [08:11] <karlUshi> if the serializer is a garbage in/garbage out, indeed it doesn't emit html 5 markup
  172. # [08:11] <zcorpan_> right
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  174. # [08:12] <karlUshi> I wonder if someone has worked on a product taking the parsed document and outputing conformant html5
  175. # [08:12] <zcorpan_> you could have a layer before the serializer to strip out stuff
  176. # [08:12] <zcorpan_> or convert it to html5 equivalent
  177. # [08:13] <karlUshi> hixie: is it in the plan to define the rules for sanitizing the output?
  178. # [08:13] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: in my mind a serializer is just the reverse of a parser: emit a stream of characters (or bytes) from a tree
  179. # [08:14] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: everyone would want different rules for sanitizing
  180. # [08:14] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: yes I can accept this, but it should clearly be mark as such in the spec. I haven't checked yet though :)
  181. # [08:15] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: hmm about different rules. Well, I think that would benefit many people and remove a bit of anger. ;) I'm trying to address this in blog post.
  182. # [08:16] <karlUshi> so I stand corrected for the serializer thanks.
  183. # [08:16] <karlUshi> I will fix the article. (not published yet)
  184. # [08:16] <zcorpan_> ok
  185. # [08:16] <hsivonen> karlUshi: html5lib also has a sanitizer.
  186. # [08:17] <hsivonen> karlUshi: it is for xss security, not conformance, though, afaik
  187. # [08:17] <karlUshi> yep seen that in the ruby version
  188. # [08:18] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: there's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Sanitization_rules
  189. # [08:19] <karlUshi> it keeps center which is not in html5
  190. # [08:19] <karlUshi> (for example)
  191. # [08:19] <karlUshi> understood that it is for security
  192. # [08:20] <Hixie> karlUshi: sanitising what output?
  193. # [08:20] * karlUshi didn't use sanitizing at the start of the discussion
  194. # [08:21] <karlUshi> just saying
  195. # [08:21] <karlUshi> Garbage In -> HTML 5 Parser -> HTML 5 Writer (output = html 5 conformant document)
  196. # [08:22] <Hixie> given garbage in, there is no way that i know of in the state of the art today to give conformant output
  197. # [08:22] <zcorpan_> print "<!doctype html><title></title>"
  198. # [08:22] <karlUshi> the serializers in HTML 5 lib do not fix the markup to be conformant according to html 5 spec
  199. # [08:22] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: so you want an HTML5Tidy
  200. # [08:23] <karlUshi> yes which would be basically html5 serializer + html5 content model filter
  201. # [08:23] <BenMillard> Hixie, not in complete and absolute detail in one place, AFAIK.
  202. # [08:23] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: it would probably also have to include SVG Tidy and MathML Tidy :)
  203. # [08:23] <karlUshi> to create a virtuous circle
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  205. # [08:24] <BenMillard> Hixie, I recall James Graham wrote up a snapshot of what was implemented some time ago but that doesn't compare it to what's in HTML5...ah here it is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0075.html
  206. # [08:24] <Hixie> BenMillard: k
  207. # [08:24] <Hixie> BenMillard: thanks
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  209. # [08:25] <Hixie> BenMillard: ah yeah i used that when writing the spec
  210. # [08:25] <Hixie> iirc
  211. # [08:25] <Hixie> BenMillard: (though i made some changes because the spec had other constraints to worry about as well)
  212. # [08:25] <BenMillard> yeah, I think you mentioned it in #whatwg
  213. # [08:28] <BenMillard> Hixie, the main difference I know if is the chaining of header cells. my vision for Smart Headers is it would be implemented by UAs, make all possible associations through the table, pass this on via platform-specific accessibility APIs, then ATs would use their already very sophisticated verbosity controls to only provide the relationships that are useful to their specific customer base (and individuals would have the abilit
  214. # [08:28] <BenMillard> as they can customise verbosity already)
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  216. # [08:29] <BenMillard> in the tables I studied during 2007, only 20% used <th> for all their header cells (http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/)
  217. # [08:30] <BenMillard> I didn't count how common <td scope="row"> was for row headers compared to <th> or <th scope="row">
  218. # [08:31] <BenMillard> but my impression was that <td scope> was common enough to be worth supporting
  219. # [08:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@202.128.117.187)
  220. # [08:31] <Hixie> i need to look at the feedback in the tables directory
  221. # [08:32] <Hixie> but my impression from the data i got yesterday was that chained headers hardly ever happen in the wild
  222. # [08:32] <Hixie> and when they do, almost never happen correctly
  223. # [08:32] <Hixie> and so it's probably not worth adding that feature
  224. # [08:32] <Hixie> i certainly am not convinced we want to chain headers automatically
  225. # [08:33] <BenMillard> I don't mean chaining of the headers attribute, I mean cases where a <th> has another <th> which is related to it, such as a table with 2 or more levels of column headers
  226. # [08:33] <Hixie> but again, i'll have to look at the data and feedback closely when i get to this issue again
  227. # [08:33] <Hixie> the thing i don't understand is why would a user ask for the headers of a header?
  228. # [08:33] <Hixie> surely it's the data the user is looking for
  229. # [08:33] <Hixie> and the data cells already have those headers applied
  230. # [08:34] <hsivonen> creating a comprehensive html5 tidy will be hard
  231. # [08:34] <hsivonen> for example, it would need to fix tables with overlapping cells
  232. # [08:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@202.128.117.187) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  233. # [08:35] <karlUshi> hsivonen: didn't say it would be easy. It has certainly a lot of issues, but a set of canonical rules would improve interop and would help people to move forward.
  234. # [08:37] <hsivonen> much of it could be done by hacking jing internals
  235. # [08:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@202.128.117.187)
  236. # [08:42] <hsivonen> the 'curies are not qnames' explanation is interesting when curies share the characteristic of qnames being criticized
  237. # [08:43] * hsivonen had a look at xhtml2 minutes
  238. # [08:43] <BenMillard> Hixie, you sometimes need to understand the context of a header cell as you move through a table non-visually. A table I wrote recently, in the "Comparison of Techniques" section here: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/09/untangle
  239. # [08:44] <BenMillard> if you're moving down the 2nd column, it's probably useful to hear when you've moved out of the "Test File" section into the "Corrected" section, etc
  240. # [08:45] <BenMillard> another one from me, a bit older, at the bottom of this page: http://projectcerbera.com/web/articles/breadcrumbs-markup
  241. # [08:45] <BenMillard> moving across the 2nd row, it's probably useful to hear when you moved out of "Filesize (bytes)" column group and into the "Familiar" column group
  242. # [08:47] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  243. # [08:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  244. # [08:49] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: send what you just wrote in email :)
  245. # [08:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  246. # [08:49] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, good idea
  247. # [08:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  248. # [09:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@202.128.117.187) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  249. # [09:02] <karlUshi> many thanks henri, zcorpan_ and hixie. Published. rotten tomatoes as usual in the comment box :)
  250. # [09:06] <zcorpan_> pointer?
  251. # [09:06] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, i could see that
  252. # [09:06] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/09/fixing-html-with-html5
  253. # [09:07] <Hixie> BenMillard: not sure it's really common enough to warrant adding to the spec, but i'll have to look closer
  254. # [09:09] <BenMillard> Hixie, for sure. but it is a regular layout and it does exist outside of my website, for example: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/odi/06-collated/original
  255. # [09:11] <Hixie> might make sense to just have headers have headers and treat them the same was cells are treated, without doing any nesting
  256. # [09:11] <BenMillard> Hixie, the original source for that is still online, "Table 6" on this page: http://www.odi.govt.nz/publications/going-beyond-compliance/survey/appendix-4-task-speed.html
  257. # [09:11] <Hixie> (that gets around the problem of loops)
  258. # [09:11] <Hixie> (though it doesn't get around the problem of self-reference)
  259. # [09:11] <zcorpan_> karlUshi: choise of quotes is a bad example since you're discussing content model and quotes is syntax :)
  260. # [09:11] <karlUshi> zcorpan_: but I'm pretty the question will arise :)
  261. # [09:12] <BenMillard> Hixie, the original source uses plain <th> and expects it to Just Work (which seems reasonable to me)
  262. # [09:12] <karlUshi> in fact will love to loose a lot of times on these points ;)
  263. # [09:12] <karlUshi> s/fact/fact, people/
  264. # [09:12] <Hixie> BenMillard: those tables will work fine as far as i can tell
  265. # [09:13] <karlUshi> s/pretty/pretty sure/
  266. # [09:13] * karlUshi in plain demonstration of my article :p unfortunately. Clumsy one day, clumsy for ever
  267. # [09:16] <BenMillard> Hixie, when moving across the 2nd row of "Table 6" it's probably useful to hear when you move from "Fastest" to "Slowest"?
  268. # [09:16] <BenMillard> (similar arrangement as my breadcrumbs-markup table)
  269. # [09:17] <BenMillard> in fact, I'd say it's essential since the header text is the same for the columns within those 2 column groups
  270. # [09:17] <BenMillard> so you need the main column header from row 1 to disambiguate the column headers in row 2
  271. # [09:23] <Hixie> yeah, i could see that
  272. # [09:26] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  273. # [09:36] <zcorpan_> "<Hixie> might make sense to just have headers have headers and treat them the same was cells are treated, without doing any nesting" -- yeah that'd make sense
  274. # [09:39] <BenMillard> annevk2 has a table where hearing headers as you move through headers seems useful: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm
  275. # [09:39] <BenMillard> specifically, moving across row 2 and row 3
  276. # [09:40] <BenMillard> (I think the top-left cell could be blank and the browser names could use <th>)
  277. # [09:40] <annevk2> sounds reasonable
  278. # [09:41] <annevk2> karlUshi, dunno much about the serializer, but it seems it worked out already
  279. # [09:42] * karlUshi thanks annevk2. Will look further. Need to catch my train.
  280. # [09:42] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@dhcp-247-195.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  281. # [09:42] <BenMillard> so multiple levels of column headers are somewhat easy to find...but multiple levels of row headers? maybe I'm the only person who does that :P
  282. # [09:45] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-88-112.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  283. # [09:46] <BenMillard> aha, my 2007 collection has this: http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
  284. # [09:47] <BenMillard> "Australia", "United Kingdom" and "USA" in the first column have a 2nd column of row headers giving smaller regions within them
  285. # [09:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  288. # [09:48] <BenMillard> so if you're moving down the 2nd column of "United Kingdom" it's probably useful to hear when you fall into "USA"
  289. # [09:52] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176250178.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  290. # [09:57] * annevk2 wonders what to make of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Stephen_Shea
  291. # [10:03] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@e176250178.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  292. # [10:04] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2008JulSep/0112.html (W3C Member-only)
  293. # [10:06] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  294. # [10:07] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2008JulSep/0273.html (W3C-Member-only, also interesting)
  295. # [10:12] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e176250178.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  296. # [10:15] <zcorpan_> (Testing: see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/.)
  297. # [10:17] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  298. # [10:17] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  299. # [10:23] <annevk2> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373864#c4 is also interesting (and public!)
  300. # [10:25] <BenMillard> Hixie, I just summarised in an on-list e-mail the tables I was discussion earlier where header cells being announced when moving between other header cells seemed useful to me: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0475.html
  301. # [10:25] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  302. # [10:25] <Hixie> i'll add it to the tables pile
  303. # [10:25] <BenMillard> cheers :)
  304. # [10:26] <Hixie> annevk2: Larry's right, though I think he's missed the WHATWG side of things
  305. # [10:31] <othermaciej> well that's interesting
  306. # [10:36] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.244)
  307. # [10:36] <othermaciej> annvevk2: I find this one interesting: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2008JulSep/0189.html> (W3C Member-only again)
  308. # [10:37] * Joins: webben (n=benh@149.254.192.211)
  309. # [10:37] <othermaciej> annevk2: in light of the fact that any rational look at working groups and their effectiveness would surely put XForms and XHTML2 on the cut list
  310. # [10:37] <Hixie> given a=1234 and b=5678, what is the mathematical expression that yields 1234.5678 ?
  311. # [10:37] <annevk2> othermaciej :)
  312. # [10:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, the simplest such expression would be 1234.5678
  313. # [10:38] <othermaciej> if you want it to involve a and b, then a + b / 1000
  314. # [10:38] <othermaciej> if a and b are actually general variables with varying numbers of digits
  315. # [10:39] <Hixie> i mean given any value of a and b, with the result being equivalent to casting a and b to a string and then concerting a + "." + b to an integer again, except without going through strings.
  316. # [10:39] <othermaciej> then a + b * (10 ^ -(1 + floor(log10(b))))
  317. # [10:39] <othermaciej> or something like that
  318. # [10:40] <Hixie> pity
  319. # [10:40] <BenMillard> do you get a bonus for connecting 4 closing parentheses in a row? :)
  320. # [10:40] <othermaciej> former lisp hacking habits
  321. # [10:41] <Philip`> f(x) = { x if x < 1; f(x/10) otherwise }; a+f(b)
  322. # [10:41] <Philip`> That's still a mathematical expression :-)
  323. # [10:41] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.123.214)
  324. # [10:41] <othermaciej> if one were writing this in code then yes a loop dividing by 10 might be more effective
  325. # [10:42] <othermaciej> of course, this assumes a and b are integers
  326. # [10:42] <othermaciej> though if they are not the question is ill-posed
  327. # [10:43] * annevk2 wonders what problem this is solving
  328. # [10:43] <Philip`> Or you could write "a.b" and people may know what that means
  329. # [10:44] <Philip`> (I'm sure I've seen that notation several times in the past)
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  333. # [11:01] * annevk2 is a bit surprised that the smart header algorithm only now gets attention, especially after yesterday's telcon where some people were stressing for deciding on this right "now"
  334. # [11:02] * Quits: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  336. # [11:04] <Hixie> annevk2: really? you're surprised? after the way they've been acting?
  337. # [11:11] <annevk2> maybe disappointed is better
  338. # [11:12] <Hixie> i wish someone would tell me what the rush was about, frankly
  339. # [11:12] <Hixie> but anyway
  340. # [11:12] <Hixie> time for bed
  341. # [11:12] <Hixie> nn
  342. # [11:12] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  343. # [11:13] <othermaciej> Hixie why do you hate blind people so much
  344. # [11:16] * Quits: webben (n=benh@149.254.192.211) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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  346. # [11:32] <takkaria> oh, hsivonen is porting his java parser to Gecko
  347. # [11:39] <annevk2> yeah, he said as much anyway
  348. # [11:44] <hsivonen> yes, I'm porting it
  349. # [11:45] <annevk2> lot of work?
  350. # [11:45] <hsivonen> the parser core is suitable for mechanic translation to C++
  351. # [11:45] <hsivonen> we'll see :-)
  352. # [11:46] <annevk2> might be annoying to keep the two up to date all the time I imagine
  353. # [11:46] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-de003ac3f1c91214)
  354. # [11:46] <olliej> annevk2: prod?
  355. # [11:46] <hsivonen> I expect the integration to Gecko to be more work than the Java to C++ translator
  356. # [11:47] <annevk2> but maybe someone else can do maintenance after you did the hard work?
  357. # [11:47] <annevk2> olliej, yo
  358. # [11:47] <hsivonen> annevk2: the idea is to keep them in sync by generating C++ code from the Java source
  359. # [11:47] <olliej> annevk2: xhr spec says that the XHR object's document is the document of the object it is invoked on
  360. # [11:47] <olliej> annevk2: which works if 'this' is a window
  361. # [11:48] <othermaciej> "object it is invoked on" is kind of an ambiguous phrase
  362. # [11:48] <olliej> annevk2: but what happens if i do (for the sake of argument) new ({a:XMLHttpRequest}.a)
  363. # [11:48] <olliej> annevk2: what document should it get?
  364. # [11:48] <othermaciej> I told olliej I thought it meant the "this object"
  365. # [11:49] <olliej> annevk2: esp. if you imagine windowa.foo = function(){new ({a:windowb.XMLHttpRequest}.a) }
  366. # [11:50] <annevk2> sigh, I'm not sure what that syntax does
  367. # [11:50] <othermaciej> annevk2: olliej is setting it up so that the object that the XMLHttpRequest constructor is invoked on, is not a Window object
  368. # [11:50] <othermaciej> more readable example:
  369. # [11:50] <othermaciej> var randomObj = {};
  370. # [11:50] <othermaciej> randomObj.XMLHttpRequest = someWindow.XMLHttpRequest;
  371. # [11:51] <othermaciej> new randomObj.XMLHttpRequest();
  372. # [11:51] <annevk2> hmm, I never tried that, does that work in IE?
  373. # [11:52] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  374. # [11:52] <othermaciej> I bet IE binds the original window object the XHR constructor comes from
  375. # [11:52] <othermaciej> rather than using the one it is invoked on
  376. # [11:52] <othermaciej> you could tell the difference with:
  377. # [11:53] <othermaciej> window.foreignXHR = otherWindow.XMLHttpRequest
  378. # [11:53] <annevk2> what the spec says is what IE does for the non randomObj cases
  379. # [11:53] <othermaciej> new foreignXHR();
  380. # [11:53] <othermaciej> what does IE do in that case?
  381. # [11:53] <othermaciej> does it use window or otherWindow?
  382. # [11:53] <annevk2> i'm not sure about that case either, I don't have IE handy
  383. # [11:54] <othermaciej> I would guess then that it was not the intent of the spec to voice an opinion on these cases
  384. # [11:54] <othermaciej> olliej: I guess you should test in IE and maybe Firefox and Safari and Opera and send your results to the webapps-wg mailing list
  385. # [11:57] <annevk2> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/open/ has tests for the "simple" client = new otherwindow.XMLHttpRequest() cases
  386. # [11:57] <annevk2> it does seem like this needs addressing, indeed
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  397. # [12:36] * annevk2 finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0509.html (W3C-Member only)
  398. # [12:43] <othermaciej> mmm, condescenscion
  399. # [12:50] <annevk2> for the window.foreignXHR = otherWindow.XMLHttpRequest case I'd expect window.document to be the Document pointer
  400. # [12:50] <Dashiva> It's good to know nothing goes on in the w3c that needs hiding
  401. # [12:51] <annevk2> the PFWG should really be public, not sure why it isn't
  402. # [12:51] <othermaciej> they are the experts
  403. # [12:51] <othermaciej> why should they need outside input?
  404. # [12:52] <othermaciej> annevk2: if you expect that, you expect the "this" object to be used, but in that case the randomObject case should fail
  405. # [12:52] <Dashiva> Oh, I would never suggest such a thing, merely that we might want insight in their wisdom
  406. # [12:52] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  407. # [12:52] <Philip`> They should open up and try to emulate the great success of public-html
  408. # [12:52] <annevk2> othermaciej, I feel another HTML5 dependency coming
  409. # [12:53] <othermaciej> public-webapps works pretty well
  410. # [12:54] <othermaciej> I think public-html fails because the launch of the HTML WG got so much publicity
  411. # [12:54] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-03fb6bcad06f698d)
  412. # [12:54] <othermaciej> and because HTML is such a central piece of the Web technology stack
  413. # [12:54] <othermaciej> and because it is easier to wrongly believe you understand HTML than to do so with CSS or DOM APIs
  414. # [12:54] <hsivonen> webapps attracts implementors and people who write relatively advanced JS
  415. # [12:54] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  416. # [12:55] <othermaciej> these factors contribute to a much higher level of highly opinionated but poorly informed people
  417. # [12:55] <annevk2> www-style has that too for less technical topics
  418. # [12:56] <othermaciej> and people who are there not to provide expertise but to score political points for their pet objectives
  419. # [12:56] <othermaciej> public-webapps is one of the best standards mailing lists I am on
  420. # [12:56] <annevk2> othermaciej, weinig, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20080926
  421. # [12:56] * Joins: dotjay_ (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  422. # [12:56] * annevk2 hilited the relevant bits
  423. # [12:57] <othermaciej> annevk2: yeah, that's what Gecko does
  424. # [12:58] <othermaciej> which does not appear to match the spec as I read it
  425. # [12:58] <othermaciej> not sure what IE does
  426. # [12:58] <othermaciej> the Gecko behavior would not be hard to implement
  427. # [12:59] <annevk2> ah yes, "The associated Document object is the one returned by the document attribute from the object on which the XMLHttpRequest() constructor was invoked (a Window object)." needs some tweaking
  428. # [13:03] * Quits: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  429. # [13:05] <othermaciej> annevk2: it was actually olliej who pointed it out, not Sam
  430. # [13:05] <othermaciej> olliej == Oliver Hunt; weinig == Sam Weinig
  431. # [13:11] * dotjay_ is now known as dotjay
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  435. # [13:25] <annevk2> oops
  436. # [13:26] <olliej> annevk2: :D
  437. # [13:29] <othermaciej> olliej: do you have test cases for the rebinding examples discussed a little while ago?
  438. # [13:29] <othermaciej> so someone can test in IE
  439. # [13:29] <olliej> othermaciej: errr, not really
  440. # [13:30] <olliej> othermaciej: problem being that i don't know xhr well enough to make useful tests
  441. # [13:30] <olliej> s/well enough/at all
  442. # [13:31] * Joins: dotjay_ (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
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  445. # [13:35] <othermaciej> ok I might try at some point
  446. # [13:37] <annevk2> I was confused I guess because weinig does XHR2
  447. # [13:37] * Quits: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  448. # [13:39] <othermaciej> olliej just hacks whatever he feels like
  449. # [13:39] <othermaciej> either that or canvas and XHR have some secret relationship
  450. # [13:40] <othermaciej> "WebKit erf├╝llt alle Acid3-Kriterien"
  451. # [13:40] <othermaciej> somehow it sounds cooler in German
  452. # [13:43] <olliej> dun dun duhh
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  480. # [15:51] <annevk2> http://ajaxian.com/archives/maintaining-css ouch
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  496. # [16:44] <hendry> anyone have tips for running IE6 in XP (alongside 8beta2 I currently have running)?
  497. # [16:48] <Philip`> Use the VirtualPC image?
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  511. # [18:09] <BenMillard> annevk2, zomg: "</body><body>"
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  513. # [18:11] <BenMillard> and the 4 </div> means up to 3 are invalid (although that shouldn't cause real problems, it is ugly)
  514. # [18:13] <BenMillard> oh not it doesn't...Firefox 2 wasn't displaying the end of the conditional comments even when I scrolled right to the end (had to select the sample for them to show up)
  515. # [18:15] <BenMillard> actually, I was right the first time: up to 3 are invalid since there's only 1 <div> start tag in browsers which aren't IE7, IE6 or IE5
  516. # [18:18] <BenMillard> for some reason I thought Ajaxian was actually good...guess my judgement was clouded by memories of Galaxian :)
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  540. # [20:18] <tusho> Is <time>2006-09-23</time> fine?
  541. # [20:19] <tusho> As opposed to <time datetime="2006-09-23">2006-09-23</time>
  542. # [20:21] <Dashiva> As far as I can see, yes
  543. # [20:21] <Dashiva> "If the datetime attribute is not present, then the date or time must be specified in the content of the element, such that parsing the element's textContent according to the rules for parsing date or time strings in content successfully extracts a date or time."
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  546. # [20:42] <tusho> *nod*
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  564. # [22:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: whatwg doesn't have any of the public-html problems, despite it having far more subscribers
  565. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: So is it inversely proportional for groups > 1 person?
  566. # [23:00] <Hixie> it's all to do with whether the group has someone actually maintaining the community and actually calling people (privately) on their rudeness
  567. # [23:01] * gsnedders sighs deeply
  568. # [23:05] <Hixie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIxDJof7xxQ
  569. # [23:07] <dglazkov> hey, Hixie: http://codereview.chromium.org/4097 -- I know it's not 100, but better than before :)
  570. # [23:09] <Philip`> It's not 100, it's 500
  571. # [23:09] <Philip`> Oh, the server error went away when I reloaded
  572. # [23:10] <Hixie> dglazkov: :-)
  573. # [23:12] <dglazkov> Philip`: yeah, we occasionally score 500/100 on acid3. It's rare, but it happens ;)
  574. # [23:13] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Style/2008/css-charter -- "Effective participation is expected to consume one work day per week for each participant; two days per week for editors."
  575. # [23:13] <Hixie> hahha
  576. # [23:23] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  577. # [23:27] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/48DCD23D.3040202@aptest.com
  578. # [23:27] <Hixie> The 2022 date is working in our favour
  579. # [23:27] <Hixie> because the xhtml2wg is buying it
  580. # [23:27] <Hixie> and thus don't think we're a threat ("years from adoption")
  581. # [23:28] <Dashiva> Unlike xhtml2 which is decades away? ;)
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  583. # [23:31] <jgraham> "years from adoptions" could be a simple sign error
  584. # [23:32] <jgraham> Since "adoption staarted years ago" is the correct answer
  585. # [23:32] <Dashiva> What discussion about removing iframes on whatwg@ seems a bit silly
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  587. # [23:33] <Hixie> jgraham: hah
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  589. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: in the intro to the talk you use the future tense a lot
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  591. # [23:37] <Hixie> d'oh!
  592. # [23:38] <Dashiva> gsnedders: He wrote the talk back in 1999, didn't you know?
  593. # [23:38] <gsnedders> Dashiva: :P
  594. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: I do like the aim of demoing everyting
  595. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: Where's the full demo video you use?
  596. # [23:46] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  597. # Session Close: Sat Sep 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)