/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-01 / end

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  57. # [09:00] <yecril71> The example with musical footnotes is a wordplay.
  58. # [09:01] <yecril71> The word "footnote" meanins that the note should be put at the bottom of the text.
  59. # [09:01] <yecril71> It means that.
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  61. # [09:15] <yecril71> It has a semantic meaning,
  62. # [09:15] <yecril71> although its name clearly contains a presentational part.
  63. # [09:15] <yecril71> It is because footnotes are always placed after the text,
  64. # [09:16] <yecril71> otherwise they make no sense.
  65. # [09:16] <yecril71> A heading is another example of this shift from semantic to presentation.
  66. # [09:16] <yecril71> ... shift from presentation to semantics, of course.
  67. # [09:17] <yecril71> However, the word "footnote" meaning a musical note that has its flag up is purely presentational.
  68. # [09:18] <yecril71> Setting the class of such a symbol to "footnote" is a misunderstanding.
  69. # [09:19] <yecril71> It should be CLASS="foot note" instead.
  70. # [09:19] <yecril71> So this is not a good counterexample at all.
  71. # [09:21] <yecril71> The solution presented in the specification is may be inconsistent but it is at least practical.
  72. # [09:22] <yecril71> A class is a semantic property, it is not exclusively for the sake of styling.
  73. # [09:23] <yecril71> The cases where class bears no semantics are exactly the cases where id can (and should) be used instead.
  74. # [09:24] <yecril71> Sort of "it really means nothing, but I would like this text to be yellow".
  75. # [09:24] <yecril71> Where "this text" is replaced by an identifier.
  76. # [09:25] <yecril71> On the other hand, class=xyzzy means that this text is an instance of class xyzzy.
  77. # [09:26] <yecril71> And this is semantic information.
  78. # [09:26] <yecril71> Or rather denotes an instance of class xyzzy.
  79. # [09:31] <yecril71> It seems irc-logs do not work.
  80. # [09:32] <yecril71> So I am just typing in vain.
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  84. # [10:45] <Philip`> yecril71: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081101 - the logs do seem to work :-)
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  86. # [11:43] <yecril71> They work today but there is a hole of yesterday.
  87. # [11:43] <yecril71> So the whole think is sort of unreliable.
  88. # [11:43] <yecril71> The whole thing is sort of unreliable.
  89. # [11:44] <yecril71> It is funny how I tend to make typos here. It does not happen in e-mail that often.
  90. # [12:17] <Lachy> yecril71, most IRC logging systems are somewhat unreliable because they depend upon the up time and connectivity of the server running the log bot
  91. # [12:22] <Dashiva> Several bots running on each server on the network, connecting from different locations.
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  102. # [14:37] <erlehmann> If you don't celebrate Halloween, PROCEED AS NORMAL.
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  123. # [17:04] <yecril71> The recommended way of making footnotes is inconsistent because
  124. # [17:04] <yecril71> there are three very different ways, depending on the context.
  125. # [17:04] <Hixie> that's not inconsistent
  126. # [17:06] <yecril71> Moreover, the usage boundaries are not sharp.
  127. # [17:06] <yecril71> So, when the text of your footnote changes, you have to change the footnote syntax.
  128. # [17:06] <yecril71> If that is not inconsistent, then what is?
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  130. # [17:07] <yecril71> And please update the IRC link on Wiki.
  131. # [17:09] <Hixie> being inconsistent would be like having three footnotes use different styles in the same document
  132. # [17:09] <Hixie> the spec suggests different ways to do it, and allows authors to pick whichever one they want
  133. # [17:09] <Hixie> which link in the wiki?
  134. # [17:09] <yecril71> See your talk page
  135. # [17:10] <yecril71> Did you mean "styles" as in CSS?
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  137. # [17:11] <yecril71> Using different styles in various places need not be inconsistent.
  138. # [17:11] <yecril71> Using different constructs for similar semantics is inconsistent.
  139. # [17:13] <yecril71> Exercise: Find all footnotes in the current document.
  140. # [17:13] <yecril71> The length of the solution is the measure of consistency.
  141. # [17:13] <Hixie> oh feel free to edit the page
  142. # [17:14] <yecril71> I feel but it is protected
  143. # [17:14] <Hixie> huh, why was it protected
  144. # [17:14] <yecril71> Use action=protect
  145. # [17:14] <Hixie> try now
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  150. # [17:19] <yecril71> Done.
  151. # [17:21] <Hixie> thanks
  152. # [17:21] <Hixie> bbl
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  158. # [18:31] <yecril71> User agents, such as web crawlers, do have interest in semantics.
  159. # [18:35] <yecril71> It would be nice to specify title and behaviour using CSS.
  160. # [18:35] <yecril71> For the time being, behaviour relies on JavaScript and
  161. # [18:36] <yecril71> it can be applied via JavaScript, although this is a bit inefficient.
  162. # [18:36] <yecril71> There is no workaround for title.
  163. # [18:37] <yecril71> (where no script is available, that is).
  164. # [18:37] <yecril71> However, managing hyperlinks in the same way would be insane.
  165. # [18:38] <yecril71> Images and hiding are subject to CSS.
  166. # [18:39] <yecril71> Ordinarily, there should be just one element called "edit".
  167. # [18:39] <yecril71> Or no such elements, of course.
  168. # [18:40] <yecril71> I can see nothing wrong in having to change the stylesheet.
  169. # [18:41] <yecril71> CSS is modular because of @import.
  170. # [18:41] <yecril71> The only problem with CSS is that you cannot explicitly inherit style
  171. # [18:41] <yecril71> from a structurally unrelated class.
  172. # [18:42] <yecril71> That problem clearly wants a solution but it is not a problem in HTML.
  173. # [18:42] <yecril71> Well, here you are, Bert.
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  191. # [21:56] <Hixie> 106
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  195. # [22:56] <takkaria> 107
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The end :)