/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.164.186.80)
  4. # [00:02] <sicking> Hixie, aboodman: ping
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> hey
  6. # [00:02] <sicking> Hixie, so we realized that there is no spec in webworkers for figuring out what useragent is running
  7. # [00:03] <sicking> Hixie, i.e. something like navigator.userAgent
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> yeah
  9. # [00:03] <sicking> Hixie, it's trivial to implement, and seems like it might help future compat a lot
  10. # [00:03] <sicking> Hixie, so i think we'll want to try to get it in for this release
  11. # [00:03] <Hixie> we should just expose the relevant parts of navigator
  12. # [00:03] <sicking> Hixie, should we simply expose a .navigator object which has the properties that are defined in html5?
  13. # [00:03] <Hixie> which is defined now in html5
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> yeah
  15. # [00:03] <Hixie> what you said
  16. # [00:04] <sicking> readonly attribute DOMString appName;
  17. # [00:04] <sicking> readonly attribute DOMString appVersion;
  18. # [00:04] <sicking> readonly attribute DOMString platform;
  19. # [00:04] <sicking> readonly attribute DOMString userAgent;
  20. # [00:04] <Hixie> right
  21. # [00:04] <Hixie> i'm on vacation right now, will be back 11/11, but please do send feedback so i can add it when i get back
  22. # [00:04] <sicking> ok, we'll probably implement before then
  23. # [00:04] <sicking> but i'll send to list
  24. # [00:05] <othermaciej> sicking: send to the list, I'll ask Alexey to add it to ours too
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  28. # [00:07] <sicking> othermaciej, cool
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  35. # [00:35] <aboodman> hixie, sicking ... catching up
  36. # [00:36] <aboodman> sicking: what hixie said
  37. # [00:36] <sicking> cool
  38. # [00:36] <aboodman> sicking: i would like to come to agreement wrt dual interfaces for workers.
  39. # [00:36] <aboodman> i am still uncomfortable with it the way that it is.
  40. # [00:37] <aboodman> and i know you guys are getting ready to ship, so i think it's important to get consensus.
  41. # [00:37] <sicking> aboodman, i don't feel strongly either way. I'm happy with the way it is but don't really mind your changes.
  42. # [00:37] <aboodman> oh, cool.
  43. # [00:37] <sicking> aboodman, we don't implement shared workers for now at all, so as far as that goes i think it doesn't matter much
  44. # [00:37] <sicking> and we don't implement MessagePorts
  45. # [00:38] <aboodman> well, it makes a difference only in that the dedicated worker interfaces don't exist in my proposal.
  46. # [00:38] <aboodman> so you'd have to do some subset of the sharedworker interface.
  47. # [00:39] <sicking> we don't implement the dedicated interfaces separately anyway, i don't think that's detectable from the worker
  48. # [00:39] <sicking> we simply have a nsIDOMWorker interface
  49. # [00:39] <aboodman> right, but it has nsIDOMWorker::sendMessage(), I assume.
  50. # [00:39] <sicking> right, but that was the case in your proposal still right?
  51. # [00:40] <aboodman> no.
  52. # [00:40] <olliej> aboodman: you should talk to ap and weinig
  53. # [00:40] <aboodman> gar s/sendMessage/postMessage/g :)
  54. # [00:40] <sicking> i though it was in the "compromise"
  55. # [00:40] <sicking> heh
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  57. # [00:40] <olliej> aboodman: i believe ap is getting all the worker apis implemented in webkit atm
  58. # [00:42] <aboodman> I can start a new thread with the full set of changes I suggest. Will mozilla and webkit review it?
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  60. # [00:42] <aboodman> or would something else be easier?
  61. # [00:42] <sicking> aboodman, you got a link to the old thread? or remember the subject?
  62. # [00:43] <aboodman> sicking: looking
  63. # [00:44] <sicking> aboodman, found it
  64. # [00:44] <aboodman> ko.
  65. # [00:44] <sicking> aboodman, in the message you sent 9/24 11:38 it looks like postmessage is still there
  66. # [00:44] <sicking> aboodman, though not sure if that changes later in the thread
  67. # [00:45] <sicking> oh
  68. # [00:45] <sicking> no
  69. # [00:45] <sicking> it's not
  70. # [00:45] <aboodman> sicking: that is me summarizing our conversation I believe.
  71. # [00:45] <aboodman> that is what we compromised to.
  72. # [00:45] <aboodman> I wanted to keep the whatwg list up to date on the changes.
  73. # [00:46] <sicking> right, what's in the message is what i remember we compromised on, and still has postMessage/onmessage directly on the worker context
  74. # [00:47] <sicking> aboodman, basically it adds 'connect' to dedicated workers
  75. # [00:47] <aboodman> sicking: yes, we are on the same page. however, i did not view discussion on worker.postMessage() as closed.
  76. # [00:48] <aboodman> i was just basically checkpointing what we had agreed to up at that point.
  77. # [00:48] <sicking> aboodman, ok
  78. # [00:48] <aboodman> i would still like to resolve the remaining disagreements.
  79. # [00:48] <sicking> aboodman, sorry, didn't realize that was the case. It's getting really close to shipping here
  80. # [00:49] <sicking> aboodman, which isn't neccesarily a problem unless we decide to remove postMessage directly on the worker
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  82. # [00:49] <aboodman> sicking: I definitely feel that it would be better to not have that interface, and to only use connect().
  83. # [00:50] <aboodman> It seems to me that the majority case is using connect() anyway.
  84. # [00:50] <sicking> aboodman, i know we disagree on that :)
  85. # [00:50] <aboodman> heh.
  86. # [00:50] <aboodman> usually it falls to hixie to resolve disagreements on merit, but he is away, and i just don't want this to fall off the radar and then get implemented.
  87. # [00:51] <sicking> i think the problem here is figuring out which use case is the common one
  88. # [00:53] <aboodman> well, do you agree that connect() is a superset?
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  90. # [00:53] <sicking> yeah
  91. # [00:54] <sicking> well
  92. # [00:54] <sicking> it's a different syntax
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  94. # [00:54] <aboodman> i mean a superset of capabilities
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  96. # [00:54] <aboodman> agree that it isn't a compatible superset, hence my concern.
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  98. # [00:54] <sicking> seems capabailties are the same in both syntaxes, can't think of anything you can do in one but not the other
  99. # [00:54] <aboodman> technically, we are allowed to change the whatwg proposals after vendors implement them.
  100. # [00:54] <aboodman> in reality, it becomes harder after vendors implement them.
  101. # [00:55] <sicking> absolutely
  102. # [00:56] <aboodman> how about this: I will start a new thread attempting to summarize my concerns as succinctly as possible. I'll also pester the relevant apple people to chime in.
  103. # [00:56] <sicking> aboodman, sounds good, and hixie if possible
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  128. # [03:05] <Hixie> aboodman, sicking: personally i think of the proposals i've seen i like what's in the spec best, but i'll spec whatever you end up agreeing on if you do come to an agreeemnt that's good
  129. # [03:06] <Hixie> aboodman, sicking: however i'd recommend against compromising on things just to get agreement, you should definitely think that whatever you agree with is the best if you agree to it, not just agree for the sake of getting progress
  130. # [03:06] <Hixie> that way lies compromise-driven madness
  131. # [03:08] <sicking> yay madness!
  132. # [03:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you willing to compromise on your stance against compromise-driven madness?
  133. # [03:15] <Hixie> no :-)
  134. # [03:15] <Hixie> though i'll spec whatever gets implemented, so there are ways to override me :-)
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  137. # [03:17] <Dashiva> othermaciej: He'll have to wait for the committee to finish evaluating
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  219. # [08:15] <aboodman> hi weinig, just posted that mail i promised
  220. # [08:15] <weinig> aboodman: sweet!
  221. # [08:18] <aboodman> argh, please replace all occurences of 'sendMessage()' with 'postMessage()'. I keep mixing up the gears and html5 names.
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  243. # [10:10] <zcorpan> hmm both safari and firefox seem crash prone if you throw 10 video elements at them in the same page
  244. # [10:16] <olliej> zcorpan: could you file a bug at bugs.webkit.org? :D
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  247. # [10:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: would be good to have your test case on b.m.o, too :-)
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  249. # [10:34] <doublec> zcorpan, what version of firefox?
  250. # [10:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  251. # [10:39] <zcorpan> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1b2pre) Gecko/20081031 Minefield/3.1b2pre
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  253. # [10:44] <zcorpan> olliej, hsivonen: see http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/video/loading-demos/
  254. # [10:44] <olliej> zcorpan: is it first click safe?
  255. # [10:45] <zcorpan> yes it's a dir page
  256. # [10:45] <zcorpan> don't have time right now to file bugs though sorry
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  258. # [10:53] <roc> it's not crashing for me, although it isn't really working either
  259. # [10:54] <roc> oh, I think I hit the HTTP connection limit or someting
  260. # [10:54] <roc> now they're all playing
  261. # [10:54] <roc> poorly
  262. # [10:54] <doublec> yes I see the same
  263. # [10:56] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-7bd1c909f444b327)
  264. # [11:05] <zcorpan> roc: it doesn't crash for m,e every time
  265. # [11:07] <zcorpan> firefox actually first showed a gray area instead of the page when i tried to load 002.html, and then did the same for any other page, then when i tried to quit firefox it crashed. i pressed the restart firefox button and then it showed the uninstall minefield dialog (and restarted firefox)
  266. # [11:07] <zcorpan> very weird
  267. # [11:09] <roc> mmm
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  273. # [11:45] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  274. # [12:00] <Philip`> http://radar.barackobama.com/ - wow, it's a fancy animated map thing that isn't Flash - I think that's the first time I've ever seen one that isn't
  275. # [12:00] <Philip`> The layout's a bit broken in Opera, but it's the thought that counts
  276. # [12:01] * Philip` presumes it's using jQuery for animatedness
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  278. # [12:16] <zcorpan> i presume this is spam http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4025
  279. # [12:17] <zcorpan> same ip
  280. # [12:18] <hsivonen> are robocall in the U.S. legal for political advertising? I thought they were made illegal for telemarketing in general.
  281. # [12:18] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+need+to+ask+you+guyz+a+question%22
  282. # [12:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: I believe they are legal, purely on the basis that if they weren't then a lot of people would have complained very loudly about it, and I haven't heard anyone complaining that they're anything other than rude and irritating
  283. # [12:27] <Philip`> (Also, Wikipedia says lots of states have different rules for political organisations than commercial ones, for automated phone calls)
  284. # [12:28] <Philip`> (That combination of methods of proof-by-not-hearing-anyone-else-claim-it's-untrue and proof-by-Wikipedia is clearly infallible)
  285. # [12:30] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4200-ipbf2306marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  286. # [12:30] * Philip` discovers http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Proof as a useful repository of such proof methods
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  292. # [13:31] <jcranmer> Philip`: I love Proof-by-Wikipedia
  293. # [13:36] <jcranmer> I suppose that was a dumb idea
  294. # [13:37] <jcranmer> if I choose to reply to this email, I will probably embroil myself in a debate as to whether or not the HTML specification should be roughly as precise as a law
  295. # [13:38] * jcranmer chooses not to respond
  296. # [13:38] * hsivonen notes that law has very different precision in different countries
  297. # [13:39] <hsivonen> some countries assume you #include "commonsense.h"
  298. # [13:41] <jcranmer> jcranmer $ locate commonsense.h
  299. # [13:41] <jcranmer> /usr/include/bitbucket/commonsense.h
  300. # [13:41] <jcranmer> jcranmer $ ls -l /usr/include/bitbucket/commonsense.h
  301. # [13:43] <jcranmer> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 18 2008-01-01 00:00 /usr/include/bitbucket/commonsense.h -> /dev/null
  302. # [13:43] <jcranmer> :-(
  303. # [13:46] * Philip` wonders which email jcranmer is referring to
  304. # [13:48] <jcranmer> Philip`: off-list
  305. # [13:48] <Philip`> Ah
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  322. # [16:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: you probably want to hide the "watch for updates" box for print media
  323. # [16:04] <Philip`> What if you print onto dynamic e-paper?
  324. # [16:07] <zcorpan> then it still overlaps the other text
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  327. # [16:08] <zcorpan> and dynamic e-paper might well use the screen media instead
  328. # [16:08] <zcorpan> s/and/or/
  329. # [16:08] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@c-71-58-97-175.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  330. # [16:09] <zcorpan> i wonder why the status boxes aren't in the print version
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  334. # [16:15] <zcorpan> "???? (KUROSAWA Takeshi)" says the pdf
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  343. # [16:35] <Philip`> The link underlining in http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/#Introduction looks disturbingly weird to me
  344. # [16:36] <Philip`> It looks like they intentionally made it look that way, but I can't imagine why
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  357. # [17:14] <jcranmer> egads
  358. # [17:15] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.202)
  359. # [17:15] <jcranmer> anyone here remember Dmitry Turin, or did he only do stuff on the CSS lists?
  360. # [17:16] <jcranmer> (well, I'm sure that many core people here watch both lists anyways)
  361. # [17:16] <Philip`> He was on public-html too
  362. # [17:16] <jcranmer> ah
  363. # [17:16] <Philip`> Sadly he seems to have been absent lately
  364. # [17:16] <jcranmer> well, consider him back as of today
  365. # [17:17] <jcranmer> he just made some posts to the mozilla newsgroups of all places
  366. # [17:17] <Philip`> Excellent!
  367. # [17:17] <jcranmer> Subject: HTML6 budget
  368. # [17:17] * Joins: aroben__ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  369. # [17:17] <jcranmer> it goes downhill from there, IMO
  370. # [17:17] <Philip`> That's a very promising start
  371. # [17:17] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  372. # [17:18] <Philip`> I liked it when he gave a link to a 200-slide Powerpoint presentation
  373. # [17:18] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
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  376. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> Good to hear that Dmitry Turin is back
  377. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> I was worried that he might have given up on his dreams
  378. # [17:36] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  379. # [17:36] <jcranmer> I'm not in the mood to deal with him in this case
  380. # [17:37] <jcranmer> I'm already embroiled in three or four long threads
  381. # [17:39] <Philip`> As far as I can tell, nobody has extracted any value from discussions with him on public-html, so it seems safe to ignore him
  382. # [17:39] <jcranmer> I definitely will do that
  383. # [17:42] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  384. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> I think in many cases Dmitry is not necessarily expecting a response anyway
  385. # [17:42] <Philip`> (People have suggested that he should try identifying problems and use cases rather than just presenting a complete solution without explaining why it's worthwhile, but I haven't seen him follow that advice yet)
  386. # [17:43] <jcranmer> I think he is
  387. # [17:43] <jcranmer> expecting
  388. # [17:43] <Dashiva> Philip`: He saves us all the work of going through those phases by giving us the complete solution
  389. # [17:44] <Philip`> (He does seem to have put a lot of effort into his work, so it'd be nice if he could redirect that effort towards something that would actually be practical)
  390. # [17:44] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  391. # [17:44] <hsivonen> mozilla.dev.planning it seems
  392. # [17:44] <jcranmer> Philip`: "He needs concrete budget. So i'm asking you to estimate and say, how much will it cost."
  393. # [17:45] <jcranmer> he wants a response, it seems
  394. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> I don't think Dmitry's interested in mundane things like examining and documenting use cases or investigating whether there may be some spec or technology that already solves the problems he's created complete solutions for
  395. # [17:45] <jcranmer> MikeSmith: of course not
  396. # [17:46] <Philip`> jcranmer: Did you mean s/Philip`/MikeSmith/?
  397. # [17:46] <jcranmer> Philip`: oh, right
  398. # [17:46] <jcranmer> sorry
  399. # [17:46] <jcranmer> MikeSmith: it only works with his new solutions
  400. # [17:46] <Philip`> Apology accepted
  401. # [17:46] <Philip`> :-p
  402. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> jcranmer: right
  403. # [17:46] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  404. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> He wants to build the whole complete rocket ship to the moon, from scratch
  405. # [17:47] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I think he is aware of existing technology - e.g. he looked at the existing XPath technology, and then changed the syntax a bit so that he liked it more
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  407. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK
  408. # [17:48] <Philip`> or at least gave a few examples of what the syntax ought to look like
  409. # [17:48] <Philip`> which is totally enough to justify making a new XML path selector standard
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  411. # [17:49] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  412. # [17:51] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Hmm, how long ago did people realise that making a moon rocket would require a lot of work? I think it was some Jules Verne thing where one guy built one himself, whereas nowadays everyone realises you need giant corporations or government organisations to do it, but I have no idea when people switched from one view to the other...
  413. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> Philip`: me neither..
  414. # [17:52] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Alas :-(
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  418. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> related to that "how long ago.." question - http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/016985.html seems sort of relevant
  419. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> the part where Mike Schinkel writes, "The irony is that if TBL had gotten this kind of resistance"...
  420. # [18:07] * Joins: Maurice` (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  421. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> and Hixie points out that TimBL actually implemented what he spec'ed
  422. # [18:10] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-9c42075eb74149b0)
  423. # [18:13] <Dashiva> "This is very much a case of empowering serendipity" <- What?
  424. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> the thing with Dmitry Turin -- and I guess a good number of others as well -- is that they spin these grand plans without any intention of actually implementing them. The expect that somebody else will implement it for them.
  425. # [18:15] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.164.187.58) ("The computer fell asleep")
  426. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> the word empowering should be banned from all discussions. anybody who uses it should receive a thrubbing
  427. # [18:15] <Dashiva> And that everyone will use them once implemented.
  428. # [18:16] * Philip` made an entry for the ICFP contest where you had to write an AI bot that would navigate a map and find food and push competing robots out of the way, and called it Serendipity because that was the only way it would ever actually find any food
  429. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> heh
  430. # [18:17] <Dashiva> Oh, that quote. "what does your robot do, sam?" "it collects data about the surrounding environment, then discards it and drives into walls"
  431. # [18:17] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-784a8a5d6409131c)
  432. # [18:19] <Philip`> It would be funnier if it weren't so true
  433. # [18:20] * Philip` once made a robot which triggered its own reset switch every time it hit an obstacle
  434. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> robots shouldn't do practical stuff -- the should to crazy, unpredictable stuff, and make strange sounds
  435. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorkbot
  436. # [18:22] <Philip`> Also, it's unfortunate that the power of Lego motors is greater than the strength of the Lego chassis in which I usually put them
  437. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> "people doing strange things with electricity"
  438. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> Philip`: out-of-control torque is a great thing to watch
  439. # [18:23] <erlehmann> Philip`: pixxx!
  440. # [18:24] <Philip`> Attaching four Lego motors (powered from a 12V adapater) to a half-meter S shape made of Lego monorail track is great fun, particularly when mounted on top of a combat robot
  441. # [18:25] <Philip`> *adapter
  442. # [18:25] <Philip`> You can get quite a lot of kinetic energy out of them
  443. # [18:27] <erlehmann> wat
  444. # [18:28] <erlehmann> back to biz - are there any deprecated items in the HTML5 spec ?
  445. # [18:29] * Quits: aroben|lunch (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  446. # [18:29] <Philip`> erlehmann: No - you're either allowed to write things, or not allowed to
  447. # [18:29] <erlehmann> also, i believe that section 4.8.2.1.3 should contain strong wording to use CSS
  448. # [18:29] <zcorpan> erlehmann: why?
  449. # [18:29] <Philip`> (though of course you can still write things that you're not allowed to, and they'll still work)
  450. # [18:30] <Philip`> (for some understanding of 'work')
  451. # [18:30] <erlehmann> CSS3 content replacement would probably make the section obsolete anyway
  452. # [18:31] <zcorpan> erlehmann: why would you use css for logos and icons?
  453. # [18:32] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  454. # [18:33] <erlehmann> zcorpan: i already do, if they conver no additional semantic info. for navlists as presented in the spec i just change the "list icon" (how is it called).
  455. # [18:33] <zcorpan> erlehmann: you didn't answer my question though :)
  456. # [18:33] <erlehmann> common icons usually are deco that can be replaced without changing semantics, therefore i use CSS.
  457. # [18:34] <zcorpan> ah
  458. # [18:34] <erlehmann> like doing a web site in tango style, then switching over to aqua look.
  459. # [18:34] <erlehmann> most icons have the same purposes as colors - merely being stylistic elements
  460. # [18:35] <zcorpan> i don't quite agree -- icons are closer to the content than the color scheme
  461. # [18:35] <zcorpan> pretty much like italics vs font face
  462. # [18:36] <erlehmann> well yes, but they usually convey semantics that are already there.
  463. # [18:37] <Philip`> The semantics usually aren't there unless you specifically add class names as hooks for the images
  464. # [18:37] <erlehmann> consider a change of a corporations' logo. on the corporation website, it is purely stylistic. on a web site discussing design and typography the logo is semantic content.
  465. # [18:38] <jcranmer> ... must ... resist ... troll ... posting
  466. # [18:38] <jcranmer> ...
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  468. # [18:38] <zcorpan> it's not just stylistic -- it's important for users to recognize where they are
  469. # [18:39] <Philip`> If you're changing the logo, you'd just overwrite /images/logo.gif and it doesn't matter how you're referencing it in a page :-)
  470. # [18:39] <Philip`> Uh oh
  471. # [18:40] <Philip`> Dmitry came back to public-html
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  475. # [18:53] <jcranmer> oh, I just realized why I didn't see that post... I subscribe to all but public-html :-)
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  483. # [19:25] <erlehmann> Philip`: that proves that the image by itself has no semantic meaning, doesn't it ?
  484. # [19:25] <erlehmann> which was my point, btw
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  496. # [20:23] * Philip` wonders why people are being so rude to Pentasis
  497. # [20:23] <jcranmer> Philip`: his assertion that specs shouldn't be written by/for browser vendors?
  498. # [20:27] <Philip`> jcranmer: That's a reason to strongly disagree, particularly when he's making those claims within the context of the WHATWG which is fundamentally designed in opposition to his claims
  499. # [20:27] <Philip`> but it doesn't seem like a reason to explicitly laugh at him or to say "Now GTFO my web"
  500. # [20:30] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  501. # [20:30] <jcranmer> Philip`: I haven't seen any of the recent messages, so I can't riposte
  502. # [20:31] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  503. # [20:37] <erlehmann> Philip`: the point is that his criticism is pointless. he claims that WHATWG has "not the right" to evolve HTML. fine, fine, go make another standard ! what pentasis does is akin to flaming on the KDE mailing list that they should use GTK.
  504. # [20:44] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  506. # [20:50] <jcranmer> I wonder what Hixie's position is
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  512. # [21:24] <Hixie> my position on the guy who said "GTFO my web" is that i told him that was unacceptable; if he does it again he'll get banned for a week
  513. # [21:28] <erlehmann> Hixie: oh, that would be me.
  514. # [21:28] <erlehmann> i'll watch my output, then.
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  525. # [21:53] <gsnedders> oh hell
  526. # [21:54] <gsnedders> /. commenhs are now worse than digg at tines
  527. # [21:54] <jcranmer> weren't they always?
  528. # [21:54] <doublec> this the theora thread?
  529. # [21:56] <gsnedders> doublec: yep. totally not reading what I'm saying
  530. # [21:56] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Rarely.
  531. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Apparently I'm suggesting Ogg has patent problems. I'm not. I'm saying Theora's patent status beyond On2's patents is unknown.
  532. # [21:58] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  534. # [21:58] <Philip`> But when talking about patents, being unknown is a problem
  535. # [21:59] <gsnedders> But Ogg != Theora.
  536. # [22:01] <Philip`> Ah
  537. # [22:01] <Philip`> But they're close enough :-p
  538. # [22:03] <gsnedders> The guy who is arguing with me knows the difference, but thinks I am saying Ogg has problems and can't believe he's arguing with someone who thinks that.
  539. # [22:03] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-52987594d3723466)
  540. # [22:03] <Dashiva> Why don't we just encode the video as sound
  541. # [22:03] <Dashiva> That way we're safe!
  542. # [22:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: That won't work - it wouldn't be accessible to deaf people
  543. # [22:04] <gsnedders> :D
  544. # [22:05] <Dashiva> They could convert back to video. It's all just waves anyway
  545. # [22:05] <Philip`> Ah, cunning
  546. # [22:06] <jcranmer> gsnedders: I see what you mean
  547. # [22:06] <Philip`> Of course, somebody will have patented the audio/video conversion algorithm
  548. # [22:06] * Joins: mabdul (n=mabdul@host150.natpool.mwn.de)
  549. # [22:07] <gsnedders> jcranmer: /. comments in general or the thread specifically?
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  555. # [22:10] <jcranmer> gsnedders: specific thread
  556. # [22:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.152)
  557. # [22:10] <gsnedders> Can I be bothered to write a long comment?
  558. # [22:11] <gsnedders> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=nested&cid=25625761
  559. # [22:11] <gsnedders> hmm
  560. # [22:11] * jcranmer attempts to gauge how much will make it through
  561. # [22:12] <gsnedders> that URI doesn't work
  562. # [22:13] <jcranmer> Hixie: good thing I did some discussion off-list, then :-)
  563. # [22:13] * Parts: mabdul (n=mabdul@host150.natpool.mwn.de)
  564. # [22:16] <gsnedders> I had a discussion like it at TPAC. Some people were taking it up with timbl, who grabbed me (or rather called me, first by another name beginning with g, then correctly) as a passing HTML WG member.
  565. # [22:17] <gsnedders> Got some history about HTML's relation to SGML
  566. # [22:18] <Dashiva> "You look like a suitable decoy"
  567. # [22:18] <gsnedders> :D
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  575. # [22:36] <aboodman> sicking, othermaciej_: i wanted to make sure that you saw i resumed the thread about workers as promised.
  576. # [22:36] <othermaciej_> aboodman: I did
  577. # [22:36] <sicking> aboodman, yeah, will comment
  578. # [22:36] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  579. # [22:37] <sicking> aboodman, it's a little fuzzy on what new API you are proposing though
  580. # [22:37] <sicking> aboodman, such as, is there an implicit call to 'connect' when a shared worker is created?
  581. # [22:37] <aboodman> sicking: yes. should i follow up with the IDL?
  582. # [22:38] <sicking> aboodman, i'll comment first
  583. # [22:39] <aboodman> sicking: i misread your question. there is no implicit connect() call. callers must always call connect() explicitly.
  584. # [22:39] <sicking> aboodman, ah, that's what i suspected, though you don't mention that change
  585. # [22:40] <aboodman> sicking: my apologies, i wasn't sure what would be the least lossy way to communicate my ideas.
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  590. # [22:58] <sicking> othermaciej: I don't see your reply yet on the whatwg list btw
  591. # [23:01] <othermaciej_> I did not reply
  592. # [23:01] <othermaciej_> I did see the thread
  593. # [23:03] <othermaciej_> I agree with Alexey's reply
  594. # [23:03] <othermaciej_> and also the general sentiment that it would be good to reduce the number of interfaces to the messaging mechanism
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  599. # [23:20] <sicking> othermaciej_, aboodman: my concern with forcing connect() to be called on a dedicated worker is that it makes the simple case so complicated for the user. I've detailed in a response
  600. # [23:21] <sicking> othermaciej_, aboodman: in any case this is something that we need to decide on very soon. We're freezing today, but i might be able to get changes done for a few more days
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  604. # [23:28] <othermaciej> sicking: it doesn't seem that much more complicated to me, particularly considering that Workers are an advanced feature in the first place
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  607. # [23:29] <othermaciej> sicking: I tend to think overall API simplicity is more important here than optimizing the simple case
  608. # [23:29] <sicking> othermaciej, even with the nested event handlers?
  609. # [23:30] <sicking> othermaciej, I do think there is value in making the simple case simpler, if it's the common use case
  610. # [23:31] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-174-92.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  611. # [23:31] * Hixie thought what we had today was pretty simple as it was
  612. # [23:31] <sicking> othermaciej, creating a single API that fits all use cases doesn't always yield the simplest API for any of them
  613. # [23:31] <othermaciej> sicking: so you are really concerned about one extra line of code in 4-5 line code sequences?
  614. # [23:31] * sicking agrees with Hixie
  615. # [23:31] <othermaciej> I have to admit I don't care much about this either way, other than wanting a resolution
  616. # [23:32] <othermaciej> but I agree with aboodman that having three different ways to do worker-related messaging overall seems like a mess
  617. # [23:32] <sicking> othermaciej, mostly the nested functions, with two different events in scope are complicated
  618. # [23:32] <Hixie> i don't really see that we have three ways
  619. # [23:32] <Hixie> they're all the same way
  620. # [23:32] <sicking> well, startConversaion is just a convinence method, not really a new mechanism. I'm fine with dropping that
  621. # [23:33] <Hixie> and startConversation was only added in response to aaron's request :-)
  622. # [23:33] <sicking> ultimately there is only one communication mechanism: postMessage
  623. # [23:34] <othermaciej> I have a hard time getting worked up about it either way
  624. # [23:34] <othermaciej> like I said
  625. # [23:34] <sicking> with aarons proposal you'll actually always have to use two mechanisms, connect() and postMessage()
  626. # [23:34] <othermaciej> I think this is an advanced feature in any case
  627. # [23:34] <sicking> i mostly agree, i'm ok with either, though it might be hard to get postMessage dropped from FF3.1 at this point
  628. # [23:34] * Quits: Maurice` (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  629. # [23:35] <othermaciej> I'd be more concerned about the complexity of determining worker lifetime if anything
  630. # [23:35] <othermaciej> although that's more a concern for implementations than an API issue
  631. # [23:36] <Hixie> i'm ok with whatever API people want, but in the face of apathy i'm strongly in favour of the status quo
  632. # [23:36] <Hixie> (if the arguments aren't convincing, as, imho, in this case)
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  637. # [23:58] <aboodman> Jonas, hixie, I don't see how you think there is only one mechanism.
  638. # [23:59] <aboodman> Maybe we are having a terminology problem.
  639. # [23:59] <sicking> aboodman, the only way you can send data is through 'postMessage'
  640. # [23:59] <aboodman> yes, but the method is located on different objects.
  641. # [23:59] <aboodman> and must be initialized differently.
  642. # [23:59] <Hixie> the only mechanism is the message channel mechanism
  643. # [23:59] <Hixie> and it's initialised automatically whenever possible
  644. # Session Close: Wed Nov 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)