/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-16 / end

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  48. # [10:32] <jgraham> ". They have clearly told us several times that the reason they use our products is to view pages on the web" heh
  49. # [10:42] <erlehmann> jgraham, wat?
  50. # [10:43] <hsivonen> erlehmann: see sicking's email to public-html
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  52. # [10:55] <jgraham> BenMillard: I have some semi-working code for the HTML5 table header lgorithm but I won't get to finish it before Wednesday at the earliest
  53. # [10:56] <BenMillard> jgraham, that's OK. Don't bust a gut over it. :)
  54. # [10:56] <jgraham> No guts will be busted
  55. # [10:56] <BenMillard> lol
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  61. # [12:27] <gsnedders> MikeSmith's doc breaks ISO 2145!
  62. # [12:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does ISO 2145 have two interoperable implementations?
  63. # [12:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: LaTeX, MediaWiki, and Anolis at least
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  65. # [12:30] <Philip`> I think you should be much more concerned that it breaks XHTML 1.0, rather than a boring numbering spec that nobody cares about :-p
  66. # [12:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: Nobody is an exaggeration. We have at least one case of a person caring.
  67. # [12:31] <Philip`> But he's a nobody :-p
  68. # [12:31] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2005JulSep/0003.html
  69. # [12:32] * hsivonen wonders how long will it take for someone to complain about the browser-relatedness of the default style sheet bits
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  71. # [12:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is ISO 2145 the same for all locales?
  72. # [12:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yes
  73. # [12:36] <hsivonen> what a great opportunity for a country who wants to feel important to deviate from the standard
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  75. # [12:44] * Philip` notes that Markus Kuhn seems to be quite unhappy with the US's deviation from the standard A4-style paper sizes
  76. # [12:47] <hsivonen> I'd take the decimal separator and spelling from the U.S. but I'd take paper sizes and electricity sockets from Germany
  77. # [12:48] <gsnedders> Philip`: ISO 216 paper sizes, not A4-style
  78. # [12:48] * gsnedders ducks
  79. # [12:48] <hsivonen> (seriously, the EU should do something about British/Irish and Italian electricity sockets)
  80. # [12:48] <takkaria> I have a suspicion gsnedders has most of the ISO specs in his bedroom. :)
  81. # [12:49] <gsnedders> takkaria: I'm not rich enough :P
  82. # [12:49] <takkaria> hsivonen: aren't the european sockets only two-pronged?
  83. # [12:49] <gsnedders> takkaria: No
  84. # [12:49] <gsnedders> Well, depends where
  85. # [12:49] <gsnedders> Some earted sorkets are three; most are two
  86. # [12:49] * gsnedders can't type
  87. # [12:50] <hsivonen> takkaria: no. Both the German and French sockets have 3-wire extensions and the common plug design fits both French and German 3-wire sockets
  88. # [12:50] <takkaria> sounds useful
  89. # [12:50] <takkaria> otoh, I don't see that the EU can do anything about the UK's sockets now really
  90. # [12:51] <hsivonen> The unearthed plug on my magsafe charger fits pretty much any EU socket except British/Irish
  91. # [12:51] <hsivonen> the earthed plug doesn't fit into Italian sockets
  92. # [12:51] * Philip` has a Danish desk lamp, which has a two-pronged plug, but it fits fine in a three-prong socket if he uses another plug to temporarily stick into the plug's earth socket to open up the other two holes, and he hopes that's not too dangerous a thing to do
  93. # [12:52] <takkaria> heh, I have done that before
  94. # [12:52] <hsivonen> the kind of unearthed plug that fits into Italian sockets can be crammed onto a British one, too, but not well
  95. # [12:52] <takkaria> what with the UK generally being a bit Eurosceptic, the general public would get very pissed off with any attempt to change plug sockets
  96. # [12:54] <gsnedders> BS 1363 is also widely regarded as safer
  97. # [12:54] <Philip`> How would it be possible to migrate the plug/socket format without suddenly breaking backward compatibility and forcing everyone to buy dozens of adapter thingies?
  98. # [12:54] <hsivonen> I'm not so concerned about using adapters when traveling in Britain/Ireland. What bothers me is the waste of all the UK-style cords that I've received just in case in various hardware packages
  99. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think it should be possible to construct a socket that has the UK and German earthing features
  100. # [12:57] <gsnedders> The problem is fitting circular and rectangular plugs in
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  102. # [13:03] <gsnedders> BS 546 wouldn't have that problem, but is only used in lighting applications in the UK now :P
  103. # [13:15] <gsnedders> Also, my understanding is the main issue is most British houses use 30A ring circuits, and thus the plugs really need to be fused
  104. # [13:17] <Philip`> We should just move to a wireless power infrastructure
  105. # [13:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is there a fuse in the *plug*??
  106. # [13:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes, like in http://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/images/technical/uk%20mains%20plug%20wiring.png
  107. # [13:19] <hsivonen> wow. that's a design choice I didn't think about at all
  108. # [13:20] <Philip`> Where else would you put the fuses? :-)
  109. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: at the point where the apartment's wiring connects to the building wiring
  110. # [13:22] <Philip`> Ah
  111. # [13:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's the case with BS 546, which is why they are used in theatres a lot
  112. # [13:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: If you have a fuse inaccessible on a lighting rig…
  113. # [13:25] <Philip`> I suppose that's less sensitive (and therefore less safe?) than having a fuse in each plug
  114. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: It's just as safe
  115. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: It's the same amperage as in the socket
  116. # [13:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: There's a separate wire from the connector box to each plug
  117. # [13:26] <takkaria> hsivonen: wikipedia has some history of why it was put in the plug
  118. # [13:27] <gsnedders> High amperage ring circuits to lose less copper post-war
  119. # [13:27] <gsnedders> s/lose/use/
  120. # [13:27] <takkaria> that could be a headline
  121. # [13:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: my apartment has 6 fuses: one for stove, two for lighting and 3 for regular sockets
  122. # [13:28] <Philip`> If I have a 3A fuse in the plug for some device that usually uses 2A, and then that device gets a bit shorted or something so that it starts drawing as much current as a kettle, then it'd be nice for it to blow the fuse rather than to happily pass through a 13A fuse that's installed miles away in some cupboard where I don't know what device is connected to what socket
  123. # [13:28] <hsivonen> and I have more than 3 regular sockets
  124. # [13:28] <hsivonen> so if a fuse burns, several devices lose power
  125. # [13:29] <gsnedders> And the plug is less than half the amperage of the ring circuit, so for safety reasons that it has to be in the plug/socket. Having it in the plud allows smaller fuses in low power devices
  126. # [13:29] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But do several sockets just share 16A?
  127. # [13:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
  128. # [13:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: That's not the case in the UK so much
  129. # [13:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: So we can blame the Nazis for our electric socket design?
  130. # [13:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: In part :P
  131. # [13:32] <Philip`> They're a soft target, so I'm happy to wholly blame them
  132. # [13:34] * gsnedders has no idea what the wiring like in this Edwardian house is like
  133. # [13:34] <gsnedders> It has had several systems in it
  134. # [13:36] <gsnedders> We have BS 546 plugs still
  135. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Still live, too
  136. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Ah. Wikipedia confirms my suspicion of Denmark not being a Nordic team player when it comes to electricity sockets
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  139. # [13:46] * Philip` sees someone complaining about the limited range of fonts in Google Docs, and supposes that's a good opportunity for using downloadable fonts so it's not limited to the intersection of what all users have installed by default
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  141. # [13:56] <takkaria> uploadable fonts would be useful too
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  143. # [14:03] <Philip`> Hmm, can you upload fonts from web browsers?
  144. # [14:04] <Philip`> Windows Explorer handles its fonts directory really weirdly and seems to try to prevent you from ever seeing that there's actual files in there
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  146. # [14:08] <takkaria> you probably could
  147. # [14:08] <takkaria> just browse to c:\windows\fonts or wherever, I would have thought it would let you select font files that wya
  148. # [14:11] <Philip`> But that's a magic folder
  149. # [14:11] <hsivonen> does IE allow EOT fonts for contenteditable parts of HTML?
  150. # [14:12] <Philip`> (I'm not sure quite how magic it is, though)
  151. # [14:16] * Joins: yecril71 (n=giecrilj@piekna-gts.2a.pl)
  152. # [14:17] <yecril71> If any equivalence between mouse position and sound balance
  153. # [14:17] <yecril71> for the blind should be invented,
  154. # [14:18] <yecril71> it should be invented by the operating system GUI
  155. # [14:18] <yecril71> or an assistive technology add-on.
  156. # [14:18] <yecril71> HTML has nothing to do with that.
  157. # [14:23] <takkaria> ever thought of publishing a book of philosophical remarks on HTML? :)
  158. # [14:27] <yecril71> Never in my life.
  159. # [14:28] <yecril71> HTML is a very practical thing to me.
  160. # [14:28] <yecril71> That is, since Yucca explained to me not to expect too much.
  161. # [14:35] <hsivonen> what's Yucca working on these days?
  162. # [14:43] <yecril71> I have seen his post to www-html quite recently.
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  183. # [19:17] <hsivonen> I'm aware of problems wih html5.validator.nu. validator.nu works. sorry about the inconvenience. I'll fix.
  184. # [19:43] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  185. # [19:50] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu is back up
  186. # [19:50] <hsivonen> sorry about the outage
  187. # [19:54] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  188. # [19:59] * gsnedders wonders where he could get a job for three months next summer
  189. # [20:02] <jcranmer> intern for some company
  190. # [20:03] <wilhelm> gsnedders: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening.dml?id=211
  191. # [20:03] <Philip`> Your local supermarket might have some vacancies
  192. # [20:04] <gsnedders> wilhelm: "Enrollment in a 3-5 year university program, or completing such a program in 2009." — not me
  193. # [20:05] <hsivonen> looks like the AI meme is continuing: http://www.cynicalturtle.net/kame/index.php/2008/11/14/487-liens-du-14-11-2008
  194. # [20:05] <jcranmer> gsnedders: ask politely?
  195. # [20:05] <gsnedders> wilhelm: And May is too soon. My last exam is first Friday of June
  196. # [20:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: That won't pay so well :P
  197. # [20:05] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable150.182-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  198. # [20:06] <jcranmer> GSoC?
  199. # [20:06] <hsivonen> does GSoC not require university enrollment?
  200. # [20:06] <jmb> not strictly, no
  201. # [20:06] <gsnedders> jcranmer: see hsivonen, and I'll be < 18
  202. # [20:07] <wilhelm> gsnedders: If it looks interesting, apply anyway. I didn't fulfil the formal requirements when I applied.
  203. # [20:07] <jmb> the <18 thing may be more of an issue there
  204. # [20:07] <jcranmer> starts May 26
  205. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  206. # [20:07] <jcranmer> too early
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  208. # [20:08] <gsnedders> I know someone who tried to get exempt from that, as he was 17 at the application deadline but was 18 at the start of the time
  209. # [20:08] <gsnedders> He didn't get exempted.
  210. # [20:09] <jcranmer> Yes. You must be 18 years of age or older by April 14, 2008 to be eligible to participate in Google Summer of Code in 2008.
  211. # [20:09] * gsnedders will be 18 on 20100420
  212. # [20:09] <jcranmer> trying to get something under 18 is a tad difficult
  213. # [20:09] <Philip`> You could lie about your age
  214. # [20:10] <jcranmer> any government-based summer internships?
  215. # [20:10] <jcranmer> I did a SEAP program (through the U.S. Navy) before my junior year
  216. # [20:10] <gsnedders> jcranmer: In Scotland age of majority is 16 :P
  217. # [20:11] <gsnedders> anyhow, supper
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  220. # [20:26] <takkaria> wilhelm: hmm, that's an interesting link, thanks. :)
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  222. # [20:33] <wilhelm> (c:
  223. # [20:36] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr118.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  224. # [20:49] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  225. # [20:51] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  226. # [21:06] <Hixie> Philip`: you can make magic folders non-magic by deleting the hidden file in them that makes them magic
  227. # [21:06] <Hixie> something .ini iirc
  228. # [21:12] <gavin> desktop.ini
  229. # [21:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  230. # [21:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  231. # [21:32] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  232. # [21:45] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  233. # [21:45] * Joins: KrocCamen (n=kroc@80-194-189-199.cable.ubr03.craw.blueyonder.co.uk)
  234. # [21:56] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-149-208.perm.iinet.net.au)
  235. # [21:58] * Philip` wonders if someone should tell bz that arguing with Rob Burns is probably not going to be very productive
  236. # [22:04] * olliej_ is now known as olliej
  237. # [22:07] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8a29.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  238. # [22:24] * Quits: famicom (i=famicom@5ED2FF2D.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Leaving")
  239. # [22:33] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  240. # [23:05] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-144-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  241. # [23:07] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  242. # [23:15] * Quits: KrocCamen (n=kroc@80-194-189-199.cable.ubr03.craw.blueyonder.co.uk)
  243. # [23:22] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  244. # [23:29] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  245. # [23:31] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@219.89.238.104)
  246. # [23:32] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  247. # [23:32] * Joins: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  248. # [23:36] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  249. # [23:50] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.120.200) (Remote closed the connection)
  250. # Session Close: Mon Nov 17 00:00:00 2008

The end :)