/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  4. # [00:01] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  5. # [00:04] * Philip` downloads the new IE8 build
  6. # [00:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: I wasn't asked any sort of order of magnitude question — I know several maths applicants were asked how many grains of sand there are in the world, though.
  7. # [00:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, how did the interviews go?
  8. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: The first (physicsy one) went really badly; the second went fine
  9. # [00:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah
  10. # [00:09] <gsnedders> Basically, all the questions I was asked in the first were the things that I'm meant to know for AH physics but don't actually know
  11. # [00:11] <Philip`> Sounds like the new IE8 build fixes the ARIA attribute properties
  12. # [00:11] <gsnedders> I did work it out mostly, albeit slowly and only just not making bad mistakes with integration
  13. # [00:12] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  14. # [00:13] <Philip`> Interviews don't really feel like the right environment for carefully solving equations
  15. # [00:13] <gsnedders> No, they really don't
  16. # [00:13] <roc> what new IE8 build?
  17. # [00:14] <Philip`> roc: I think it's only in the Tech Beta program at the moment
  18. # [00:14] <roc> how often do they release new builds?
  19. # [00:15] <Philip`> They're basically the same as the public betas
  20. # [00:15] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.62.218)
  21. # [00:15] <Philip`> (This is the first change since Beta 2, as far as I'm aware)
  22. # [00:15] <roc> you mean this is the first build they've released that wasn't a public beta?
  23. # [00:16] <gsnedders> They've been distributing a newer build with Win7 pre-beta apparently
  24. # [00:16] <gsnedders> It's probably just the same build as that
  25. # [00:16] <Philip`> roc: It's the first one via the Tech Beta thing
  26. # [00:17] <Philip`> (which is free to join if you can convince them you're not going to spam their bug database with garbage, or if you convince an existing member to give you an access code, etc, and if you agree to all the relevant terms and conditions)
  27. # [00:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's dated to the 10th of December (at least in the readme file), so it may not be the same
  28. # [00:20] <Philip`> (Oddly, the readme file is a PDF named Readme.exe)
  29. # [00:25] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  30. # [00:27] <Philip`> (When I said I was downloading the IE8 build, I didn't realise it was going to go at 15KB/sec, or that it would take half an hour to update Windows and uninstall IE8b2 and still not get around to installing the new build...)
  31. # [00:47] <Philip`> Aha, there it goes
  32. # [00:52] <Philip`> It's a lot less slow at rendering the spec than before
  33. # [00:53] <Philip`> It still takes half a second to work out where to go when you click on a fragment link, and maybe a quarter of a second to draw the background highlight when hovering items in the table of contents, but it's quite bearable
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  43. # [01:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so i met with lisa
  44. # [01:28] * Joins: rillianbis (n=giles@66.183.19.247)
  45. # [01:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: she's open to us splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs
  46. # [01:28] <Hixie> (the api part of web socket would go into a separate w3c draft)
  47. # [01:29] <Hixie> MikeSmith: assuming there's no objections, i'll start looking at doing that in early january
  48. # [01:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-b08be5959ff1ae83)
  49. # [01:35] <takkaria> Hixie: have you any suggestions for interesting board games to play?
  50. # [01:35] <Hixie> how long? how many people? how geeky are the people?
  51. # [01:35] <Lachy> Hixie, who's Lisa? Is she someone from the HTMLWG?
  52. # [01:35] <takkaria> any length of time, three to six, and really quite geeky
  53. # [01:36] <Lachy> takkaria, megamonopoly
  54. # [01:36] <Hixie> lachy: Lisa Dusseault = ietf apps area director
  55. # [01:36] <Hixie> takkaria: i would recommend Twilight Imperium 3
  56. # [01:36] <Lachy> that's monopoly with 2 boards joined together
  57. # [01:36] <Hixie> takkaria: takes about 12 hours to play the first time, though
  58. # [01:37] <takkaria> christ, that looks awesome. :) ta
  59. # [01:38] <takkaria> Lachy: how does that work?
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  62. # [01:40] <Lachy> join the 2 boards diagonally together with the GOs overlapping and do a figure 8 around both
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  65. # [01:40] <takkaria> hmm
  66. # [01:41] <rillianbis> Lachy: does it come with highrise towers as a hotel upgrade?
  67. # [01:41] <Lachy> just watch out for the extra long expensive strip since the 2 with Mayfair, etc. end up line up
  68. # [01:41] <neatnik> Mayfair?
  69. # [01:41] <Lachy> rillianbis, you're free to make up any variation
  70. # [01:41] <rillianbis> :)
  71. # [01:41] <Lachy> neatnik, that's the most expensive property on a standard monopoly board
  72. # [01:41] <neatnik> Lachy: oh. I thought it was Boardwalk
  73. # [01:42] <Lachy> what?
  74. # [01:42] <Lachy> in which version?
  75. # [01:42] <neatnik> I've never seen a monopoly board with a Mayfair on it
  76. # [01:42] <neatnik> dunno, I grew up playing the standard Parker Bros version
  77. # [01:42] <neatnik> American version, I guess
  78. # [01:42] <rillianbis> neatnik: Mayfair is what the UK edition called Boardwalk
  79. # [01:42] <neatnik> did they change it? :(
  80. # [01:42] <neatnik> Oooh.
  81. # [01:42] * Quits: blooberry (n=brian@ip67-152-80-106.z80-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  82. # [01:42] <neatnik> cultural misunderstanding :D
  83. # [01:42] <neatnik> Mayfair sounds cooler than Boardwalk, for the record
  84. # [01:43] <Lachy> neatnik, in the original version based on London place names, it's Mayfair
  85. # [01:43] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Board
  86. # [01:44] <Lachy> I can't remember what it's called in the first Australian edition that I have at home in Aus
  87. # [01:44] <neatnik> oh wow
  88. # [01:44] <neatnik> I had no idea.
  89. # [01:44] <neatnik> Growing up in America, you're more or less programmed to believe that everything here is the most significant and important version of everything
  90. # [01:44] <neatnik> And that nothing else matters
  91. # [01:45] <neatnik> So it never occurred to me that there'd even be another version of Monopoly, let alone that it would be the *original* version :/
  92. # [01:45] <rillianbis> with effort and experience, this assumption can be overcome :)
  93. # [01:45] <Lachy> Growing up out of America, you're more or less programmed to believe that everything there is the least significant and unimportant version of everything :-)
  94. # [01:45] <neatnik> rillianbis: hmm, I've always assumed that it would require a time machine
  95. # [01:46] <neatnik> rillianbis: and that I'd have to go back in time and convince my parents to move to, say, Sweden when I was 1 or 2 years old
  96. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks (update about meeting with Lisa Dusseault)
  97. # [01:46] <Lachy> hmm, apparently both the US and UK versions have Park Place in the same location
  98. # [01:48] <neatnik> oh, cool
  99. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: seems to me to be a good way to go forward and I thin (hope) it will be more palatable (for lack of a better word) to some who have had issues with those parts
  100. # [01:48] <neatnik> My sister and I would play these insanely long Monopoly games when we were younger
  101. # [01:48] <roc> it's Park Lane in the UK version
  102. # [01:49] <neatnik> we both used similar tactics, and so it was hard to beat one another
  103. # [01:49] <neatnik> we'd start in the evening, play forever, and then have to give up and go to sleep before resuming the next morning
  104. # [01:49] <neatnik> there was always a 50% chance that a cat would ruin the board during the night :(
  105. # [01:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
  106. # [01:50] <Lachy> roc, oh right. I was looking at the 2 different american layouts in wikipedia without realising. I thought one was the UK version
  107. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I suspect there are still going to be some who object to publishing, e.g., the content-sniffing part at all
  108. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> but I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it
  109. # [01:50] <rillianbis> roc: did you have any more thought's about Dave's suggestion that media wrappers like SMIL need to be supported in <video>?
  110. # [01:51] <neatnik> heh, Old Kent Road
  111. # [01:51] <neatnik> that sounds like a fun place
  112. # [01:51] <roc> rillianbis: I think that's a reasonable enhancement, but it will add considerable complexity
  113. # [01:51] <rillianbis> I guess Silvia's proposal is relavant to that in that it is proposing a dom method for discovering component tracks
  114. # [01:51] <neatnik> oh wow, you don't have a "Just Visiting" area outside of your jail?
  115. # [01:52] <rillianbis> roc: I guess you said as much before
  116. # [01:53] <rillianbis> what about getting text data out of the video stream? do you see that in the same category?
  117. # [01:53] <roc> not at all
  118. # [01:53] <Lachy> neatnik, yes, Just Visiting is supposed to be there
  119. # [01:54] <Lachy> Wikipedia is just wrong
  120. # [01:54] <neatnik> phew, good
  121. # [01:54] <roc> loading multiple resources is the problem here
  122. # [01:54] <roc> dealing with what can happen if one resource loads but the other doesn't
  123. # [01:54] <roc> or they load at different rates
  124. # [01:55] <roc> SMIL is especially difficult because you have to load this intermediate XML file, validate it, and then go off and load more resources
  125. # [01:55] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  126. # [01:55] <rillianbis> ok, but your object applies to the <video><text></video> suggestion as well
  127. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> takkaria: Uncle Wiggily
  128. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> but I think the rules require that you play it while you're drunk
  129. # [01:56] <rillianbis> roc: your objection does, rather
  130. # [01:56] <roc> not so much
  131. # [01:57] <roc> if the text doesn't load we can just play the video
  132. # [01:57] <roc> if the video doesn't load, the text is useless
  133. # [01:57] <roc> if the text loads too slowly we can just ignore it
  134. # [01:57] <roc> it's ancillary
  135. # [01:58] <nessy> with the roe file (in contrast to smil), the roe would also be ancilliary to a video and allow basically server-side what the <text> tags do client-side
  136. # [01:58] <nessy> I guess that falls under the same concerns then
  137. # [01:59] <rillianbis> roc: ok good. that's how I originally read your email. thanks for clarifying
  138. # [01:59] <rillianbis> so what would the api for getting text data out of a video element's src stream look like?
  139. # [02:00] <roc> dunno
  140. # [02:00] <roc> I don't know what the data model for the text is
  141. # [02:01] <rillianbis> yeah, we don't either
  142. # [02:01] <roc> ah :-)
  143. # [02:01] <rillianbis> so right now that's a 'it depends'
  144. # [02:01] <rillianbis> if it's xml, being able to slup it is nice
  145. # [02:01] <roc> I imagine one option would be a set of text data objects, each with an associated time interval
  146. # [02:01] <rillianbis> but if it's muxed, would events be better?
  147. # [02:01] <rillianbis> *nod*
  148. # [02:02] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  149. # [02:02] <roc> if that's your data model, then I think a convenient API would be "fire an event whenever the current time enters the time interval for a text object"
  150. # [02:02] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1) (Client Quit)
  151. # [02:02] <rillianbis> my concern was that Dave implied there should be a unified method of accessing this stuff that also works with wrappers like SMIL
  152. # [02:02] <roc> or leaves
  153. # [02:02] <roc> and the event would pass in an object with the text and the interval
  154. # [02:02] <rillianbis> that would work for both, of course, but it's specific to text
  155. # [02:02] <rillianbis> (or chapter/annotation tracks)
  156. # [02:03] <rillianbis> and not so useful for a/v data, controlling conditionals, etc.
  157. # [02:03] <nessy> for srt that works nicely
  158. # [02:03] <nessy> other formats bear more information
  159. # [02:03] <roc> that API is much like cue ranges
  160. # [02:03] <rillianbis> roc: right, that's what I was thinking of
  161. # [02:03] <nessy> such as karaoke-style formatting
  162. # [02:04] <rillianbis> nessy: couldn't that just be more-complete data inside the text objects?
  163. # [02:04] <roc> some users might want to be able to grab all available text objects and their intervals
  164. # [02:04] <roc> like if you want to be able to display text ahead and behind the current point
  165. # [02:05] <nessy> rillianbis: if it's xml marked-up, it should be parsed, right?
  166. # [02:05] <roc> designing for extensibility is fine but we have to be careful to create something that can actually be used
  167. # [02:05] * nessy nods
  168. # [02:06] <rillianbis> nessy: I don't know enough about dom and javascript to have an opinion there :)
  169. # [02:06] <nessy> which is why trying srt first and getting it right for that simple format is good
  170. # [02:06] <nessy> then we can extend for more complex formats such as dfxp
  171. # [02:06] <roc> it's tempting to pass back a big blob and say "this could be anything!" ... infinitely extensible but people can't use it
  172. # [02:06] <nessy> that's my concern, too
  173. # [02:07] <nessy> the dom or api should be as simple as possible
  174. # [02:07] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.244.18.41)
  175. # [02:07] * rillianbis nods
  176. # [02:07] <nessy> yet, some things should be enabled that go beyond just text and time markers
  177. # [02:07] <rillianbis> roc: so I think the cue ranges make a lot of sense
  178. # [02:08] <nessy> for example, creating a speech bubble on a person with some text that has a hyperlink
  179. # [02:08] <roc> one option is that the "text object" passed to the event is a DOM node that's created (but not inserted) in the current HTML document
  180. # [02:08] <rillianbis> they just need another attribute we can hang text on
  181. # [02:08] <Hixie> MikeSmith: for sure. but i don't see any way to satisfy that position, so...
  182. # [02:08] <roc> so that could be a text node, but it could be an <A> element
  183. # [02:08] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable168.84-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  184. # [02:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: right, me neither
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  187. # [02:10] <roc> whatever semantics the browser can extract from the metadata, it can translate into HTML
  188. # [02:10] <roc> that translation would probably be in an auxiliary spec somewhere
  189. # [02:10] <roc> whatever can't be translated to sensible HTML could be returned as an XML blob
  190. # [02:11] <nessy> excellent, that was what I hoped would be possible
  191. # [02:11] <nessy> a bit like the iFrame - create a dom that is essentially html, but applied to the video
  192. # [02:11] <roc> the idea would be that a script could expect to just insert that HTML somewhere and something good would happen
  193. # [02:11] <nessy> would that work with a html excerpt or does it need a full html page ?
  194. # [02:12] <roc> or the browser could just display the HTML itself inside or next to the video
  195. # [02:12] <roc> a full HTML page is too heavyweight
  196. # [02:12] <roc> IMHO
  197. # [02:12] <nessy> good, I prefer that, to
  198. # [02:12] <nessy> too
  199. # [02:12] <nessy> since a time-aligned text excerpt tends to be something like a <div>, it would be better as an excerpt
  200. # [02:13] <roc> so an interesting thought experiment would be for you to look at the existing formats and try to define how they would be mapped into HTML nodes
  201. # [02:13] <rillianbis> should this be a separate callback just for text events?
  202. # [02:13] * Joins: adu (n=ajr@pool-71-191-181-90.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  203. # [02:14] <roc> I don't know
  204. # [02:14] <rillianbis> or is it reasonable for all cue ranges to do something like this
  205. # [02:14] <roc> I forget what the current status of cue ranges is
  206. # [02:14] <nessy> yes, that was what I intended to do
  207. # [02:14] <rillianbis> and define (formally or by convention) some magic classes?
  208. # [02:14] <rillianbis> roc: there's not much in the spec
  209. # [02:14] <rillianbis> you add them, and they call your callbacks
  210. # [02:14] <adu> can i has getContext('3d')?
  211. # [02:14] <roc> rillianbis: classes? You mean like "class" attributes?
  212. # [02:15] <rillianbis> yes
  213. # [02:15] <rillianbis> that's how cue ranges are sorted in the current spec
  214. # [02:15] <rillianbis> class attr for groups
  215. # [02:15] <rillianbis> id attr for individual ranges
  216. # [02:15] <Philip`> adu: Not yet :-p
  217. # [02:15] <roc> I have to reread the spec I guess
  218. # [02:15] <nessy> subtitles are almost the same as cure ranges, except for an additional <div> tag
  219. # [02:15] <rillianbis> there's currently no api for getting the available classes/ranges
  220. # [02:16] <roc> yeah, cue ranges with data
  221. # [02:16] <roc> would be nice to unify them I guess, if it doesn't burden cue range users unnecessarily
  222. # [02:16] <rillianbis> so there's no way to get the intrinsic ranges the player might know about from the stream
  223. # [02:16] <adu> Philip`: ok, 2d will do then :)
  224. # [02:16] <adu> Philip`: are you familiar with x3d?
  225. # [02:16] <rillianbis> roc: we did that in CMML and I always thought it was a nice idea
  226. # [02:16] <roc> yeah an API to get available data would be nice
  227. # [02:17] <rillianbis> cue ranges, chapter markers, subtitles, outgoing hyperlinks, anchors...they're all the same kind of data functionally
  228. # [02:17] <roc> the API would probably take a time interval and return a list of ranges (including associated data, if any) that intersect the interval
  229. # [02:18] <roc> of course it would only return the ranges that are available. scripts would have to poll for updated results, maybe in a progress listener
  230. # [02:18] <rillianbis> yes
  231. # [02:18] <rillianbis> that also means they have to remember the last time they checked
  232. # [02:18] <roc> hmm, but that would be a problem for streams with caption data ... the browser would have to keep all captions in memory forever in case anyone asks
  233. # [02:18] <Philip`> adu: Somewhat - I made a very incomplete prototype X3D renderer using Mozilla's experimental 3d canvas a while ago :-)
  234. # [02:19] <rillianbis> roc: that's why I was thinking of magic classes
  235. # [02:19] <adu> Philip`: nice!
  236. # [02:19] <roc> so maybe a better idea would be to have an event that fires whenever range data is received from the server, and scripts can store whatever they need themselves
  237. # [02:19] <nessy> also, you only really want one subtitle track to display at one time - but be able to select between different languages
  238. # [02:19] <rillianbis> so you could add a callback for the 'subtitle_de' class, and just get called when a new one goes in/out of playback
  239. # [02:19] <adu> Philip`: that reminds me, have you heard of CrystalZilla?
  240. # [02:19] <rillianbis> but you still need some way to find out what's actually available in the stream
  241. # [02:20] <rillianbis> which is another getter, or polling anyway
  242. # [02:20] <Philip`> adu: No, but I have now
  243. # [02:20] <adu> Philip`: its kind of the opposite: http://interreality.org/wiki/crystalzilla
  244. # [02:20] <nessy> when used inside the <video> tag with <text> elements, it is easy to see the alternatives
  245. # [02:20] <rillianbis> hmm, but polling for available lanuages and updating the ui in the progress callback isn't as bad as general query for a range
  246. # [02:21] <rillianbis> nessy: so should the player create and insert text elements to represent embedded text tracks?
  247. # [02:21] <Philip`> adu: I've been kind of interested in using WebKit in an OpenGL game, but nobody seems to have quite made a good enough port of it yet :-(
  248. # [02:21] <nessy> maybe just the availability information could go into the dom
  249. # [02:21] <adu> Philip`: have you heard of glitz?
  250. # [02:21] <nessy> but we access the data through callbacks
  251. # [02:21] <roc> glitz is toast
  252. # [02:22] <roc> Chris Lord is working on a Gecko port for use with Clutter
  253. # [02:22] <roc> it's supposed to be working pretty well
  254. # [02:22] <rillianbis> nessy: does it help to split it into two use cases? (a) I want notification when there's a new subtitle, and (b) I want all the subtitles to dump in a transcript
  255. # [02:22] <Philip`> adu: For Cairo?
  256. # [02:23] <adu> Philip`: yeah, doesn't Gecko use Cairo since ff3?
  257. # [02:23] <adu> gecko -> cairo -> glitz -> opengl
  258. # [02:24] <adu> maybe I'm missing something
  259. # [02:24] <Philip`> adu: It seems to be much harder to make that kind of thing work in practice, sadly :-)
  260. # [02:24] <roc> you're just missing that glitz is unmaintained and broken
  261. # [02:24] <adu> Philip`: I'll do it
  262. # [02:24] <adu> roc: sounds like so many beautiful projects
  263. # [02:25] <rillianbis> rock, nessy: anyway, thanks for the brainstorm.
  264. # [02:25] * rillianbis is off to dinner
  265. # [02:25] <nessy> rillianbis: not sure, really
  266. # [02:25] <nessy> rillianbis: enjoy :)
  267. # [02:25] <roc> a good quality GL backend for cairo is something everyone wants but no-one has gotten around to doing yet. Once we have one, getting Gecko working on it should be easy
  268. # [02:25] <nessy> yeah - I will go map existing formats to html, I think that's the first step
  269. # [02:25] <nessy> we will see the next :)
  270. # [02:26] <Philip`> I guess there are all sorts of problems with trying to integrate input events and timers and stuff with the rest of the application when you're trying to embed it, and it should all be cross-platform and ideally add zero size to the application
  271. # [02:27] <roc> and popup windows
  272. # [02:27] <roc> and plugins
  273. # [02:27] <roc> there are lots of issues :-)
  274. # [02:27] <Philip`> http://ajeanius.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/awesomium-google-chrome-hacked/ seems like what I want, except it's Windows-only
  275. # [02:29] * Philip` doesn't care about plugins :-)
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  282. # [03:03] <adu> i like the sound of Clutter
  283. # [03:03] <adu> i wonder why I never heard of this before
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  285. # [03:12] <fakeolliej> Philip`: sigh, i find blogs like that depressing -- a lot of the "kick-ass" API has always been in WebKit, but people seem to love claiming the google somehow invented all of it
  286. # [03:12] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  287. # [03:16] <roc> what I currently find unfair is the current crop of news articles comparing browser JS performance that compare Chrome to Safari 3.2
  288. # [03:17] <Philip`> olliej: I guess it'd be nice if people could actually use that WebKit API directly, without getting stuck by the lack of a decent open source Win32 port :-)
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  290. # [03:22] <adu> roc: whats wrong with that comparison?
  291. # [03:23] <roc> Chrome is in beta (and so is FF3.1, which they also compared against), so they should have compared against a beta Safari or ToT Webkit
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  293. # [03:25] <roc> it's especially tickly because when you compare Chrome against Safari 3.2 you're comparing new-Webkit vs old-Webkit, so to some extent you're using Apple's hard work to beat up their own browser
  294. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I reckon Adam Barth might be amenable to editing the Origin header ID, if you wanted to spread the work out a bit.
  295. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> though I do realize it's not going to be a big draft
  296. # [03:31] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  298. # [03:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, he said he's also willing to do the sniffing stuff
  299. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> cool
  300. # [03:32] <Hixie> roc: as i understand it chrome is using a really old webkit, btw, so actually it probably cuts both ways :-)
  301. # [03:33] <roc> not that old
  302. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: who knows, maybe he'd like it enough to volunteer to edit some other spec. Though why anyone would actually like spec editing is beyond me... :)
  303. # [03:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the girls
  304. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> heh
  305. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> yeah, I forgot about that part
  306. # [03:35] <roc> the POWER
  307. # [03:36] <Hixie> it's the implementors who have the power, not the spec writers :-(
  308. # [03:41] <roc> no, we are slaves to your will
  309. # [03:43] <adu> roc: well, Chrome isn't all WebKit, its also got some XPI stuff
  310. # [03:43] <roc> sure
  311. # [03:43] <roc> I inserted some appropriate weasel words
  312. # [03:43] <adu> roc: from what I hear its a mozilla-webkit cyber-child
  313. # [03:44] <roc> not really
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  315. # [03:47] * Philip` thought it was more along the lines of being WebKit plus some anti-phishing code that Google originally contributed to Mozilla, but he has almost exactly zero real knowledge and is probably totally wrong
  316. # [03:49] <roc> that's close
  317. # [03:49] <Philip`> It's close to totally wrong? :-)
  318. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> spec writers are "the unacknowledged legislators of the world"..
  319. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> also, "I fall upon the thorns of life! I bleed!"
  320. # [03:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: btw if you have opinions on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete-features.html#conformance-checkers-0 it would be good to hear them :-)
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  322. # [03:54] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I like how search engines allow me to understand literary references despite being an uneducated oaf who's never read any of those things
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  324. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> Philip`: the Web has really taken a lot of the fun out of things. no longer possible to stump anybody with references to literary works, even relatively obscure stuff
  325. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> I remember years ago taking this quiz where the questions were all the final lines of poems
  326. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> and you had to figure out what poems they were from
  327. # [03:57] <Philip`> MikeSmith: You'll have to start paraphrasing, so people can't just do the obvious searches
  328. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> and if you didn't know, you had to figure out how to find them. in books
  329. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah
  330. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> not sure how to paraphrase "I fall upon the thorns of life! I bleed!"
  331. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno you if saw my note here earlier, but David Carlisle updated the "XML Entity definitions for Characters" draft to include the set of "html5-uppercase" names
  332. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/html5-uppercase.html
  333. # [03:59] <Hixie> yeah i saw
  334. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/byalpha.html
  335. # [03:59] <Hixie> wasn't sure whether that affected us or not
  336. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> OK
  337. # [04:00] <Hixie> it doesn't change the spec, right?
  338. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no
  339. # [04:00] <Hixie> i guess i'll find out when i next run my regen script
  340. # [04:00] <Hixie> since it pulls the file automatically each time :-)
  341. # [04:00] <Philip`> MikeSmith: You could adapt the message to the medium, and say "/me falls upon the thorns of life, and bleeds!"
  342. # [04:00] <Hixie> ok. time to go eat. bbl.
  343. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> Philip`: :)
  344. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> Lachy: fwiw, I notice that http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/byalpha.html links to image files for all the characters
  345. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> that seems like a better way than actually including the images in the doc itself
  346. # [04:04] <Lachy> not if I do it the way I was intending to have the images load dynamically within the page as when needed, rather than all at once
  347. # [04:04] <Lachy> s/as when/when/
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  352. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> Lachy: anyway, you had mentioned need to have images available under a license that allowed you to use them. so those would seem to be
  353. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> though again, it seems to me the existence of http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/byalpha.html possibly obviates the need to include the list in other specs, since that can just be referenced
  354. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> but that said, I'd definitely be interested in seeing what you put together
  355. # [04:17] <Lachy> they seem to be quite small though
  356. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> yeah
  357. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> true
  358. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> dunno why they don't make em bigger
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  360. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> Lachy: http://www.eki.ee/letter/chardata.cgi?search=z+with+caron has some bigger ones
  361. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> but it is missing many
  362. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> plus they are GIFs
  363. # [04:23] <Lachy> MikeSmith, decodeunicode.org also has images available, but I'm not sure of the licences
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  394. # [07:03] <Hixie> i just use the fonts
  395. # [07:04] <Hixie> after all if the user doesn't have an appropriate font installed, he probably won't use the character
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  406. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: are there issues with referencing RFC 5322 instead of RFC 2822?
  407. # [09:17] <Hixie> do we reference either?
  408. # [09:17] <Hixie> what are they?
  409. # [09:17] <Hixie> e-mail something or other?
  410. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, e-mail
  411. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> RFC 5322 is intended to obsolete 2822
  412. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.2.3
  413. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> they seem to define "dot-atom" identically
  414. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid-e-mail-address
  415. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> you have:
  416. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> ""A valid e-mail address is a string that matches the production dot-atom "@" dot-atom where dot-atom is defined in RFC 2822 section 3.2.4, excluding the CFWS production everywhere. [RFC2822]"
  417. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: do you recall why you didn't just spec it as needing to match the "addr-spec" production?
  418. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> ..with qualifications about CWFS and FWS
  419. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> that's what http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#email has
  420. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> and so I'd suspect that's what validator.nu is checking at least
  421. # [09:24] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  422. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: production for "dtext" in RFC 5322 is more liberal than in RFC 2822
  423. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> [[
  424. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> dtext = %d33-90 / ; Printable US-ASCII
  425. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> %d94-126 / ; characters not including
  426. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> obs-dtext ; "[", "]", or "\"
  427. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> ]]
  428. # [09:28] <Hixie> addr-spec doesn't match user expectations
  429. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> OK
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  431. # [09:29] <Hixie> e.g. iirc something like this matches addr-spec: "foo" (bar) @ foo.com
  432. # [09:29] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  433. # [09:29] <Hixie> meaning foo@foo.com
  434. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> I see
  435. # [09:30] <Hixie> and then you can start introducing escapes and all kinds of stuff
  436. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> yeah
  437. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> would be good to find out from hsivonen what precisely validator.nu checks for
  438. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> seems like it might need to be more strict, if it's to match the spec
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  440. # [09:31] <Hixie> the spec recently changed relative to wf2
  441. # [09:31] <Hixie> so he might not have updated to that
  442. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  443. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think he's not updated a number of things that changed since the WF2 integration
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  445. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway, fwiw, I think if you're just directly referencing dot-atom only there, I think you could safely reference RFC 5322 instead if you cared to
  446. # [09:36] <Hixie> k, send mail or file a bug or something
  447. # [09:36] <Hixie> but i don't plan to update references until CR
  448. # [09:36] <Hixie> or at least LC
  449. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> OK
  450. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> will just raise it in bugzilla for now
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  466. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> Is there a document of some kind that mandates American spelling in international standards? Or is it just understood?
  467. # [11:28] * jgraham hopes no such document exists
  468. # [11:28] <hallvors> (won't new standards be en-GB-hixie from now? :-p)
  469. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> hmm, for Internet standards at least -- RFCs and W3C Recs -- the observed practice is to use American spellings
  470. # [11:30] <annevk5> yeah, HTML5 is en-US-x-Hixie
  471. # [11:30] <annevk5> mostly because the W3C style guide or some such requires it
  472. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> ah
  473. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> guess I should actually read that
  474. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> I wonder if the IETF has a style guide
  475. # [11:37] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051116092.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  476. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#Spelling
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  479. # [11:43] <annevk5> zcorpan, free tonight?
  480. # [11:43] * annevk5 will be in Linköping around 10:30PM or so
  481. # [11:44] <zcorpan> annevk5: maybe
  482. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> annevk5, zcorpan : I think David Storey may be there. If he run into him, tell him I said hi
  483. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> I know he's in Sweden, anyway
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  486. # [11:57] <annevk5> MikeSmith, he's there already? interesting
  487. # [11:57] <annevk5> MikeSmith, I know I've a meeting with him tomorrow :)
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  491. # [12:04] * jgraham notes that he is also in Linköping :p
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  494. # [12:07] <annevk5> jgraham, it's not like you have time, right? :p
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  497. # [12:11] <zcorpan> hmm, http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements shows up blank in ie8 unless in compat view
  498. # [12:11] <zcorpan> i wonder why
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  500. # [12:20] <zcorpan> double-colon syntax for pseudo-elements still doesn't work in ie8
  501. # [12:21] <zcorpan> "From the 43 selectors 22 have passed, 1 are buggy and 20 are unsupported (Passed 349 out of 578 tests)"
  502. # [12:22] <annevk5> jgraham, your phone number is not on the intranet
  503. # [12:25] <zcorpan> most of the html5 spec is blank in compat view
  504. # [12:26] <roc> in compat view? really?
  505. # [12:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  506. # [12:27] <roc> that doesn't sound very compat
  507. # [12:27] <annevk5> http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/1049747857 :)
  508. # [12:27] <jgraham> annevk5:
  509. # [12:27] <jgraham> Je n'ai pas de téléphone
  510. # [12:29] <annevk5> you realize you're learning the wrong language for Sweden right? :)
  511. # [12:29] <zcorpan> oops, acid3 made ie8 crash
  512. # [12:30] <annevk5> jgraham, I'm pretty sure that at some point (midnight prolly) we go to the pub close to the office
  513. # [12:30] <jgraham> annevk5: That sounds pretty late.
  514. # [12:30] * jgraham likes sleeping
  515. # [12:30] <annevk5> guess we'll see you tomorrow then :)
  516. # [12:30] <zcorpan> depending on whether i click "yes" or "no" on all the various promts that i get on acid3, i get somewhere between 12/100, a crash, or 21/100
  517. # [12:30] * annevk5 will sleep on the train
  518. # [12:31] <annevk5> we arrive at 10:30PM and need to get some food at that point... so it would be relatively early
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  520. # [12:32] <Philip`> zcorpan: html5-elements seems to work perfectly well for me in IE8
  521. # [12:32] <zcorpan> oh actually, i just either get a crash or 21/100
  522. # [12:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: in compat view?
  523. # [12:32] * jgraham has to go grapple with the Swedish banking system now :(
  524. # [12:33] <Philip`> zcorpan: No, in normal view
  525. # [12:33] <zcorpan> Philip`: i get that too. try compat view
  526. # [12:33] <zcorpan> oh wait
  527. # [12:33] <zcorpan> that's weird
  528. # [12:34] <zcorpan> well it's blank for me in normal view
  529. # [12:34] <zcorpan> after the script has run
  530. # [12:34] <Philip`> Actually, it doesn't quite work - clicking the fragment links in the frame on the left doesn't scroll the frame on the right
  531. # [12:36] <Philip`> Oh, but clicking the fragment links in the frame on the right doesn't work either
  532. # [12:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: do you have the "automatically recover from page layout errors with compat view" setting checked?
  533. # [12:38] <Philip`> zcorpan: It looks like I do
  534. # [12:38] <Philip`> (so that must be the default)
  535. # [12:39] <zcorpan> apparently it renders html5-elements in compat view if that setting is checked
  536. # [12:39] <zcorpan> i wonder how it works
  537. # [12:41] * zcorpan notices that 'border:thin solid' is 1px in normal view but 2px in compat view
  538. # [12:43] <zcorpan> typing javascript:'asdf' in the address field brings up ie6 with a dialog "Internet Explorer cannot download. Unidentified error. [ OK ]"
  539. # [12:45] <zcorpan> live dom viewer works again
  540. # [12:46] <Lachy_> zcorpan, Chris Wilson told me when I asked him about the double-colon pseudo-elements at TPAC that it was too late for support to be added to IE8
  541. # [12:46] <zcorpan> i filed a bug about it during ie7b2 iirc
  542. # [12:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oh, that compat view thing sounds not confusing at all
  543. # [12:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: ?
  544. # [12:49] <Philip`> (I mean the automatically recovering from page layout errors with compat view thing)
  545. # [12:49] <Philip`> (And by "not confusing at all", I mean the exact opposite)
  546. # [12:49] <zcorpan> ok
  547. # [12:50] <zcorpan> if their goal was to make pages render in random ways depending on a bazillion factors (including user settings), they've succeeded
  548. # [12:52] <Philip`> Then they can simplify it all by just rendering every page in compat view
  549. # [12:52] <zcorpan> even when ie7 isn't used anymore, authors will have to test their pages against both normal view and compat view
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  555. # [13:26] <hallvors> anyone here knows Gecko's ecma engine well? It seems to include elided properties when enumerating an array with for..in, I wonder if that is a known bug?
  556. # [13:26] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  557. # [13:36] <hallvors> I've looked stuff up in the spec, it seems to be a clear bug and IE/Opera/Safari all disagree with Firefox and do what the spec says. (by my reading of it anyway). Can't find it in bugzilla though.
  558. # [13:37] <annevk5> you might have better luck with this question at 10PM or so
  559. # [13:37] <annevk5> or on irc.mozilla.org :)
  560. # [13:40] <hallvors> good point about the time <:-)
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  563. # [13:45] * zcorpan is on a bug hunt for validator.w3.org's html5 integration
  564. # [13:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6301
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  605. # [17:27] * Philip` tries the performance tests from http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/03/30/python-html-parser-performance/ and gets very similar results except that modern html5lib is maybe 15-20% faster now
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  609. # [17:55] <Philip`> Amazon S3 seems to have a peculiar approach to the namespacing of storage buckets
  610. # [17:55] <Philip`> in that it doesn't do any namespacing at all - you just have to try to pick a name that nobody else has used yet
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  612. # [18:01] <gsnedders> /etc/passwd taken?
  613. # [18:04] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  614. # [18:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: No - it's limited to [a-z0-9][a-z0-9._-]{2,254}
  615. # [18:06] <Philip`> (Actually it's apparently more like (?!\d+\.\d+\.\d+\.\d+)[a-z0-9][a-z0-9._-]{2,254} but that detail doesn't seem to be explicitly specified)
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  624. # [18:45] <hsivonen> one nice thing about SRT is that it's super-simple to map to a calback API, since the data maps to unstructured JS strings
  625. # [18:48] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  626. # [18:51] <jgraham> gsnedders, Hixie: http://pimpmyspec.net/
  627. # [18:52] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1) (Client Quit)
  628. # [18:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Bug reports and feature requests about the web ui shouldn't be!
  629. # [18:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes they should :)
  630. # [18:52] <jgraham> :-p
  631. # [18:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I can't fix them!
  632. # [18:53] <jgraham> You can decide if they are important enough to bother me with :)
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  634. # [18:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: I changed it since I guess that was a bug report :-p
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  636. # [18:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Just give my email there
  637. # [18:55] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  638. # [18:56] <jgraham> that means looking for your email address
  639. # [18:56] <gsnedders> geoffers@gmail.com
  640. # [18:57] <jgraham> Better?
  641. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Yes
  642. # [18:58] <gsnedders> http://pimpmyspec.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpimpmyspec.net%2F :P
  643. # [18:58] * jgraham is leaving now
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  645. # [19:01] <Dashiva> http://pimpmyspec.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwhatwg.org%2Fhtml5
  646. # [19:01] <Dashiva> :(
  647. # [19:04] <gsnedders> Dashiva: http://pimpmyspec.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fsource-whatwg :P
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  649. # [19:07] <Dashiva> gsnedders: pimp my bug report too
  650. # [19:08] * gsnedders has no idea of the cause
  651. # [19:08] <Dashiva> Maybe it doesn't support redirects
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  653. # [19:10] * gsnedders has no idea of the cause of the bug
  654. # [19:12] <gsnedders> It works here, so bug is with jgraham and HTTP fetching
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  665. # [20:18] <hsivonen> Do blackberries come with a RIM-developed browser?
  666. # [20:18] * hsivonen is a bit surprised to learn about the -rim- CSS prefix
  667. # [20:20] <gavin> I think they do have their own browser, yeah
  668. # [20:20] <gavin> I've heard it's quite crappy
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  670. # [20:25] <smedero> http://na.blackberry.com/eng/support/docs/subcategories/?userType=21&category=BlackBerry+Browser
  671. # [20:27] <smedero> judging from the Opera Mobile numbers they release every month, a lot of BlackBerry users are installing Opera Mini.
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  680. # [21:23] <Philip`> Wow, Google stopped calling something "beta"
  681. # [21:23] <Philip`> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/google-chrome-beta.html
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  683. # [21:24] <gsnedders> no wai.
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  692. # [21:55] <Hixie> what's with the low amount of mail these days
  693. # [21:56] <takkaria> you complaining?
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  695. # [21:57] <Hixie> yes!
  696. # [21:57] <Hixie> where are the entertaining flames?
  697. # [21:57] <Hixie> where are the e-mails of people saying things i disagree with that spur me into replying?
  698. # [21:58] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-84.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  699. # [21:58] <Hixie> whenever i go more than 5 minutes without e-mail, i assume my mail delivery is broken
  700. # [21:59] * zcorpan_ is now known as zcorpan
  701. # [22:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: what do you think about my thoughts on handling foreign content?
  702. # [22:01] <Hixie> which thoughts were yours again?
  703. # [22:01] <Hixie> (i briefly scanned the various e-mails on that thread and saved them for later)
  704. # [22:01] <zcorpan> making svg <script> a cdata element
  705. # [22:02] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0134.html
  706. # [22:02] <Hixie> oh well
  707. # [22:03] <Hixie> like i told mike? hsivonen? i don't recall. but either way. like i said earlier: we can do many things that make svg-in-text/html simpler
  708. # [22:03] <Hixie> the problem is getting it past the svgwg
  709. # [22:03] <Hixie> their goals aren't compatible with making things simpler than they are now
  710. # [22:03] <Hixie> (assuming i've understood their goals correctly)
  711. # [22:04] <Hixie> (and ignoring the goals they say they have but that they haven't met in their own proposals)
  712. # [22:04] <zcorpan> i guess i should go back to ignore the issue and see how it folds
  713. # [22:05] <Hixie> that's my plan
  714. # [22:05] <Hixie> at least until i hear back from svg
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  718. # [22:26] <Hixie> i think i will invent a new exception code for calling a script in a frozen script execution environment or a script freed after document.open()
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  735. # [23:17] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  736. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Should I try sending an email asking for the XML serialization to be removed?
  737. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm sure that would get some traffic on the list.
  738. # [23:28] <Hixie> -_-
  739. # [23:28] * Hixie finds himself in a hole he dug for himself without noticing
  740. # [23:29] <Hixie> well crap.
  741. # [23:29] <jcranmer> that you're in a hole
  742. # [23:29] <jcranmer> that you dug it
  743. # [23:29] <jcranmer> or that you didn't notice?
  744. # [23:29] <jcranmer> er, s/(?<!?)$/,/g
  745. # [23:30] <jcranmer> pretend that ? was a \?... :-(
  746. # [23:30] <takkaria> which one? :)
  747. # [23:30] <jcranmer> in the regex
  748. # [23:31] <Hixie> that i was digging it
  749. # [23:31] <Hixie> i was happily building some scaffolding
  750. # [23:31] <Hixie> when i discovered it had in fact been a mine's support structure
  751. # [23:44] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-db54851b7ae61590)
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  753. # [23:51] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228087131.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  754. # Session Close: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)