/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-15 / end

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  6. # [01:18] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  50. # [06:49] <BenMillard> IE blog says support for Access Control is completed for the next public release of IE8: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/14/completing-access-control-support-for-xdomainrequest.aspx
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  61. # [07:35] <zcorpan> https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=350052 - they closed my bug as wontfix seemingly without looking at the tests
  62. # [07:35] * zcorpan has now reopened and removed tests that pass in ie8
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  68. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: getting "Bad MD5 hash for http://archive.apache.org/dist/ant/binaries/apache-ant-1.7.0-bin.zip."
  69. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> when I try to build from fresh checkout
  70. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> I remember this happening before
  71. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, but seems to be OK after I re-started the build
  72. # [08:16] <zcorpan> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/MarkUp/Hybrid
  73. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: words of wisdom
  74. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> though "Validating only fragments of a document, where each fragment is of a different document type than the other fragments in the document, is beyond the scope of this framework - since it would require technology that is not yet defined." is not actually correct
  75. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> I wonder what the context was for Gregory writing up that page
  76. # [08:28] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-pf-minutes.html (search for "hybrid") (W3C Member-only)
  77. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, after doing a fresh checkout, I'm no longer seeing the "Element “html” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml” not allowed in this context." errors
  78. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is there any way to do a "distclean" or "clean" with your build setup? (short of checking out fresh sources)
  79. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
  80. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> interesting
  81. # [08:36] <zcorpan> i thought cdf were focusing on filling the gaps in specs when they were used in the same document - not particularly addressing validation
  82. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, that sounds correct as far as I understand it
  83. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> but I didn't really follow CDF when it was active
  84. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> and it hasn't been active for quite a while now
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  86. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> the problem of validation of compound documents seems already solved by NVDL
  87. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> so I can't see that there's anything the CDF WG would have needed to do to address validation, other than to just reference that
  88. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> since it's an ISO standard
  89. # [08:45] <zcorpan> indeed
  90. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> I would think Gregory would already know about NVDL
  91. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> but that "since it would require technology that is not yet defined" comment would seem to suggest that he doesn't
  92. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> unless I'm misunderstanding what he's describin
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  95. # [08:53] * MikeSmith wonders if ap is still cranking through work on full appcache implementation, and how close his is to completing it
  96. # [08:55] <ap> MikeSmith: yes, I plan to fix some more bugs - I think that feature-wise, we only lack dynamic entries now, and those I don't intend to implement yet
  97. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> ap: I thought I had seen you posted a code review for dynamic entries recently
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  99. # [08:57] <ap> MikeSmith: I started the work, and then realized that I didn't like the spec, see https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23165#c6
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  101. # [08:58] * MikeSmith looks now
  102. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> ap: I see
  103. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> so, seems like the spec needs to be changed
  104. # [09:01] <ap> MikeSmith: the best way to change it may be to drop dynamic entries entirely - we have localStorage and SQL database for that
  105. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> ap: I hadn't thought of it that way
  106. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> but unless other implementors are specifically asking for dynamic entries, I'd bet that Hixie might be quite glad to drop it
  107. # [09:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there's no clean or distclean
  108. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  109. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> but maybe there ought to be
  110. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> because I'm definitely seeing different behavior (tests failing) in sources built from my existing workspace vs. built from fresh checkout
  111. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> s/sources built/code built/
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  116. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: filed http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=436
  117. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> thanks
  118. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
  119. # [09:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have no idea why the test behave differently in the two cases
  120. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I did a bit more poking around and couldn't find any clues either
  121. # [09:56] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes. I could well have broken that'
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  126. # [10:01] <jgraham> annevk: I literally have no idea what pms.n does. It runs code that you wrote as a frontend to code that gsnedders wrote :)
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  130. # [10:04] <zcorpan> annevk: gettters-setters - s/t//
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  135. # [10:25] <jgraham> Philip`: BTW my non-scientific tests suggested that the changes I have made to html5lib on the mathML+SVG branch introduce about a 5% performance regression
  136. # [10:25] <jgraham> Although that was only based on one run so I guess it isn't too accurate
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  138. # [10:39] <jgraham> annevk: AFAICT you can't get the HTML 4 doctype at the moment. Shall I consider that a feature request? How urgent is it?
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  147. # [11:10] <annevk> zcorpan, hmm, too late
  148. # [11:11] <annevk> jgraham, pretty printing ain't working
  149. # [11:12] <annevk> jgraham, euhm... it's not that urgent, because of pretty printing
  150. # [11:12] <annevk> jgraham, I suppose I could write a post-processor, but that defeats the purpose
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  152. # [11:17] <annevk> that's basically the advantages of the W3C private one, a DOCTYPE that works for W3C publications and "pretty" source code
  153. # [11:17] <jgraham> annevk: I can look at both problems. If it is blocking your work I guess I can even do it today
  154. # [11:17] <annevk> I suppose pretty printing I can fix to some extent by having more closing tags, although the serializer in place omits <head> and <body> which doesn't help
  155. # [11:18] <jgraham> (but don't write a post-processor, that makes no sense)
  156. # [11:18] <annevk> it's not blocking my work, as I said, I can use the W3C private one
  157. # [11:18] <annevk> ok
  158. # [11:18] <annevk> it's just that using anolis seems way cooler and it generates better IDs and all
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  160. # [11:19] <jgraham> annevk: OK I will make it a priority to fix over the weekend or something
  161. # [11:26] * Joins: brucel (n=brucel@92-236-128-204.cable.ubr10.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  162. # [11:28] <brucel> yo: editorial question r/e the spec for <small>: " "legal restrictions, such as copyrights or other disadvantages". I suggest that "caveats" be substitued for "copyright" as a copyright isn't necessarily a "disadvantge" (unless you're Richard Stallman)
  163. # [11:29] <BenMillard> brucel, I've just looked at your HTML5 element test page and the layout doesn't work in Firefox 2. Your blog layout is also rather b0rked. Shall I e-mail screenshots to you?
  164. # [11:29] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  165. # [11:30] <annevk> BenMillard, Firefox 2 is known not to work with HTML5 stuff
  166. # [11:30] <annevk> BenMillard, it has a bug they fixed in 3 :)
  167. # [11:31] <BenMillard> annevk, Bruce's tests are interested in browsers as old as IE6.
  168. # [11:33] <annevk> jgraham, cool
  169. # [11:34] <annevk> BenMillard, but Firefox 2 does not have 20% market share
  170. # [11:34] <jgraham> BenMillard: Are you aware of http://www.gijsk.com/blog/2009/01/zeven-zonderlinge-zaken/
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  172. # [11:37] <BenMillard> jgraham, yes I declined it via e-mail.
  173. # [11:38] <BenMillard> annevk, wow Firefox 2 is the source of only 3.7% of traffic to my own website.
  174. # [11:39] <jgraham> BenMillard: Ah, boring ;)
  175. # [11:39] <annevk> at my site it's 5% out of 50%
  176. # [11:40] <BenMillard> annevk, all versions of Opera add up to 5.5%, all Firefox add up to 44%, all IE 45%
  177. # [11:40] <jgraham> BenMillard: I am really not sure why you prefer FF2 to 3
  178. # [11:40] <annevk> IE is 23% on mine
  179. # [11:40] <BenMillard> jgraham, I tried it for a week and found it really annoying.
  180. # [11:41] <annevk> guess that's still too much to remove the IE hacks I have in place
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  182. # [11:43] <jgraham> BenMillard: That wasn't really an answer to the question :) What did you find annoying?
  183. # [11:43] * jgraham is pretty interested in UI but very bad at designing it
  184. # [11:43] <BenMillard> jgraham, it made me less efficient than I am in Firefox 2.
  185. # [11:44] <BenMillard> jgraham, there was so much hype about it's UI being an amazing leap forwards, yet it hardly seemed different at all when I used it. So I felt slightly let down by it, too.
  186. # [11:45] <BenMillard> jgraham, I've also seen many many reports from people for whom it is crashing a lot.
  187. # [11:45] <BenMillard> jgraham, Firefox 2 hasn't crashed for me in...erm...actually I can't remember when it last did. (Several months, probably.)
  188. # [11:46] <BenMillard> jgraham, oh and I couldn't find a good XP-like theme for Fx3, despite there being a big fanfare about OS Integration for Fx3. Another source of disappointment.
  189. # [11:47] <jgraham> BenMillard: I can't imagine working without the kind of awesomebar thing in FF3, recent Opera, etc. (I can't comment on stability since I have nightly builds of every browser I run)
  190. # [11:47] <BenMillard> jgraham, trying to upgrade my parents to Fx3 went badly, too: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/12/fx2
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  192. # [11:52] <roc> BenMillard: all I can say is, your experiences are not typical
  193. # [11:53] <BenMillard> roc, I expect that's true. I still love Firefox 2, though. :)
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  195. # [11:56] <Philip`> People should write software that automatically introduces new bugs at an exponential rate after the next version of the software has been released, to encourage people to upgrade
  196. # [11:57] <BenMillard> annevk, Safari is 3.2% of my website's traffic; nearly as much as Firefox 2. (These percentages are from the 135,072 hits I've had so far this month, as recorded by AWstats 6.7.)
  197. # [11:58] <svl> BenMillard: of course there's a Firefox 2 theme for Firefox 3: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6898
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  199. # [11:59] <hsivonen> BenMillard: Firefox 3 on XP looks quite XPish to me
  200. # [12:00] <BenMillard> svl, Firefox 2's default theme doesn't quite fit XP. The tabs are wrong, for starters. That's why I use Fx2 with Winestripe.
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  203. # [12:01] <svl> ah, winestripe, not winstripe. (sorry, not that aware of Firefox themes)
  204. # [12:01] <BenMillard> svl, thanks for trying though. :)
  205. # [12:03] <svl> BenMillard: the most recent comment on the winestripe addons page points to http://webdesigns.ms11.net/winstripethemes.html as having the same for Firefox 3 (even though on that page it's called winstripe again?)
  206. # [12:04] <svl> Ah, which points to https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/9172 which says "this is the Firefox 3 version of Winestripe"
  207. # [12:04] <svl> man, what a mess. :)
  208. # [12:05] <BenMillard> svl, now that's more like it! "Updated 9 December 2008" explains why I haven't found it before.
  209. # [12:09] <BenMillard> roc, a comment on that theme says: "Thank you for this theme, i was using one on Firefox 2.x and wouldn't upgrade to 3.0 until i had this theme." :P
  210. # [12:11] <Philip`> BenMillard: Two people out of a hundred million does not make it a typical case :-p
  211. # [12:12] <BenMillard> Philip`, I'm not saying it's commonplace, just pointing out it exists. Also, the description says: "Without this theme, I can’t use Firefox 3. And I’m not alone in this case."
  212. # [12:12] <Philip`> Okay, so it's at least three people (you, the theme author, and the commenter)
  213. # [12:13] <BenMillard> Philip`, 1,181 total downloads.
  214. # [12:13] * svl wants to bet there'll be at least 100 Firefox themes that people say similar things about.
  215. # [12:13] <jgraham> BenMillard: The problem is that when you change anything there wll always be some people who prefer the old way. The trick is to make more people prefer the new way
  216. # [12:13] <svl> Right back to Orbit 3.1
  217. # [12:14] <jgraham> (for example people spend a lot of time maintaining SeaMonkey even though Firefox is vastly more popular)
  218. # [12:15] <BenMillard> jgraham, what I am confused by is why a custom theme does a better job of following the OS look-and-feel on XP than the Fx3 default theme. Especially when "OS Integration" was promoted so heavily as a benefit of Fx3.
  219. # [12:16] <BenMillard> svl, the difference here is the theme follows the operating system, which is what should be the case by default (imho). :)
  220. # [12:16] <jgraham> BenMillard: I doin't have access to XP so I couldn't say
  221. # [12:17] <Philip`> The FF3 XP theme doesn't really look non-XPish to me
  222. # [12:19] * hsivonen uses all his OSs with the default theme and desktop picture
  223. # [12:20] * Philip` uses Linux so he doesn't expect an entirely consistent look-and-feel anyway
  224. # [12:23] <BenMillard> hsivonen, jgraham & Philip`: one example is the standard style of the current tab on XP. They have a white background with a yellow bar across the top and black text in the normal weight. Yet Firefox hasn't used that style since Fx1.5 (iirc) and even then it had bold text.
  225. # [12:24] * jgraham uses Gnome on Linux so he does expect a consistent Look & Feel but is sometimes disappointed
  226. # [12:26] <Philip`> BenMillard: Do any applications actually use the standard tab style on XP?
  227. # [12:27] <Philip`> I assume IE doesn't, and I assume Office doesn't, and I assume Visual Studio doesn't, and I can't think of any other applications I might use that might have tabs
  228. # [12:27] <BenMillard> Philip`, everything which uses standard controls and avoids breaking XP theming support does.
  229. # [12:28] <Philip`> BenMillard: That still doesn't answer the question of whether any applications do that :-p
  230. # [12:28] <BenMillard> lol :D
  231. # [12:28] <BenMillard> Tools > Options in Windows Media Player 10, IE6 and IE7 does.
  232. # [12:29] <BenMillard> control Panel stuff and propety sheets throughout the OS generally do, apart from in really old networking dialogs which break XP theming support so they look Windows 95-ish
  233. # [12:30] <BenMillard> Opera 9.63 does, although the tabs are taller than default and the difference in height between selected tab and normal tab is less than standard
  234. # [12:30] <BenMillard> Outlook Express 6 uses standard tabs throughout
  235. # [12:31] <Philip`> Okay, so maybe there's a few :-)
  236. # [12:31] <BenMillard> It's common enough to notice when it's been done wrong, let me put it that way. ;)
  237. # [12:36] * Philip` doesn't entirely like how you have to mess around with comctl versioning manifest stuff when compiling Windows applications, in order to opt-in to the new XP themed widget stylings
  238. # [12:36] <Philip`> (though it does make sense in terms of not breaking compatibility with old applications that made unreasonable assumptions)
  239. # [12:39] <annevk> zcorpan, was there any conclusion on the spellcheck debate on the WHATWG list?
  240. # [12:40] * annevk looks
  241. # [12:42] <annevk> seems Maciej had some objections but other than that nothing much
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  244. # [12:50] <jgraham> fwiw roc's points about spellchecking seemed more convincing to me
  245. # [12:56] <annevk> yeah, spellcheck seems simple enough
  246. # [13:01] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20%0Aonload%3Dfunction()%7B%0Ad%3Ddocument%2C%0Af%3Dd.createDocumentFragment()%3B%0Af.appendChild(d.createElement('a'))%3B%0Af.appendChild(d.createElement('b'))%3B%0Ad.removeChild(d.documentElement)%0Atry%7Bd.appendChild(f)%7Dcatch(e)%7Bw(e)%7D%0A%7D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  247. # [13:02] <zcorpan> webkit inserts the elements happily
  248. # [13:03] <zcorpan> hmm
  249. # [13:04] <zcorpan> it seems the viewer doesn't like empty documents
  250. # [13:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: could you add a check here in live dom viewer?
  251. # [13:05] <zcorpan> pre.appendChild(document.createTextNode(iframe.contentWindow.document.documentElement.innerHTML));
  252. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://tinyurl.com/8ujdbn - IE8, log: abbr: [object HTMLPhraseElement]
  253. # [13:18] <annevk> why do .constructor? makes it fail in Opera
  254. # [13:18] <annevk> hmm, in Opera both <a> and <area> stringify
  255. # [13:18] <zcorpan> because <a> stringified to ""
  256. # [13:19] * annevk wonders if HTML5 reflects that
  257. # [13:19] <zcorpan> ie8 and firefox do that too
  258. # [13:19] <annevk> found a bug in HTML5 then
  259. # [13:19] <annevk> it only does it for <a>
  260. # [13:20] <annevk> you want to report it?
  261. # [13:20] <zcorpan> yeah i can do it
  262. # [13:20] <annevk> the IDL bit is called [Stringifies=href]
  263. # [13:31] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d22d6f6a2f04ce28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  264. # [13:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: we're having requests from google to be able to use div as default block instead of p in contenteditable
  265. # [13:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: could an execCommand be added to control this?
  266. # [13:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-32.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("sex break")
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  272. # [14:31] <Lachy> brucel and I have been discussing this on skype. Who here thinks brucel's use of <small> for the list items in this blog post is a valid use of <small>, as defined in the spec? http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/redesigning-with-html-5-wai-aria/
  273. # [14:31] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  277. # [14:33] <Lachy> personally, I think it's questionable and isn't what <small> was intended for. But I could be wrong
  278. # [14:35] <zcorpan> Lachy: if he says it's small print, clearly he intends it to represent small print
  279. # [14:36] <zcorpan> though i probably wouldn't use <small>
  280. # [14:36] <jgraham> Lachy: It looks weird but no one will actually care hich element he uses so it doesn't matter much anyway :)
  281. # [14:36] <zcorpan> because it makes the text harder to read
  282. # [14:37] <Lachy> the point is brucel was saying how he wanted to be able to use one <small> around the whole <ul>, instead of one in each <li>
  283. # [14:38] <zcorpan> might make sense - small print is sometimes several paragraphs
  284. # [14:38] <virtuelv> I'm leaning toward "valid use"
  285. # [14:38] * hsivonen notices that someone has 29.9k rep on his StackOverflow character at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/432933/will-html-5-validation-be-worth-the-candle
  286. # [14:38] <virtuelv> in spirit what he writes is similar to what you'd expect in legalese
  287. # [14:39] <zcorpan> although having <a>, <ins> and <del> as such elements is painful enough as it is
  288. # [14:39] <hsivonen> oop. 20.9k
  289. # [14:39] <virtuelv> 20.9k is still ridiculously high
  290. # [14:40] <hsivonen> indeed
  291. # [14:44] <hsivonen> the guy has written 727 answers
  292. # [14:46] <virtuelv> I have 35k karma on reddit, but that's over several years of using it as my de-facto bookmark manager
  293. # [14:51] <Lachy> "HTML5 is not a coherent HTML specification, it's Hixie's sprawling, unreadable and unfinished recipe for every random thing he thinks a web browser should do. It will fail. And W3's alternative approach, XHTML2, has already failed. There is no coherent future direction for web standards. We have dropped the ball." -- http://stackoverflow.com/questions/432933/will-html-5-validation-be-worth-the-candle#434044
  294. # [14:52] <Lachy> it'd be nice if people who made comments like that were a little more specific about what needs fixing
  295. # [14:55] <jgraham> Lachy: It's hard to be more specific when they are objecting to the concept of something rather than the details. But I would argue that they are quantitatively wrong i.e. HTML5 has already succeeded
  296. # [14:56] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  297. # [14:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: I downvoted that off-the-point rant
  298. # [14:57] <virtuelv> that sounded like last week
  299. # [14:58] <zcorpan> ie8 has an [object HTMLNextIdElement]
  300. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> "There is no coherent future direction for web standards. We have dropped the ball."
  301. # [14:59] * Quits: harig (i=opera@219.64.184.34) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  302. # [15:00] <hsivonen> virtuelv: indeed mr. last week picked up the stack overflow comment already
  303. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> for somebody to say that "we have dropped the ball", I'd think they'd first need to have been one of the people carrying the ball
  304. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> which dude is not, as far as I can see
  305. # [15:01] <virtuelv> On the Internet, anyone can be a dog
  306. # [15:01] <virtuelv> (or something)
  307. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> he might instead have said, "We should have gotten into the game instead of sitting on our asses and bitching about everything from the Peanut Gallery."
  308. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> or wait -- I forget that we had re-set the bar for being in the game to just require that all you need to do is complain about things on your own blog or in comments on other people's blogs
  309. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> corry, forgot about that
  310. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> my bad
  311. # [15:03] <zcorpan> title: [object HTMLTextElement], hmm
  312. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> which reminds me of a joke that shepazu told me: 3 moles are climbing out of a mole-hole during a picnic... top mole says, I smell honey ... middle mole says, I smell maple syrup... bottom mole says, I only smell molasses
  313. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> I think "We dropped the ball." dude is only smelling molasses
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  316. # [15:09] <BenMillard> Lachy, that doesn't seem like small-print to me. It's a mixture of background information, licensing, scheduling, disclaimers and an invitation for collaboration.
  317. # [15:11] <BenMillard> Lachy, the content for most of those items seems quite useful and important but using <small> diminishes that importance (at least visually)
  318. # [15:16] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  319. # [15:18] <BenMillard> brucel, I agree with you: "Testing it out like this and giving feedback to the HTML 5 lists will also help improve the language."
  320. # [15:21] * Joins: Simetrical (n=Simetric@wikipedia/simetrical)
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  322. # [15:42] * Parts: brucel (n=brucel@92-236-128-204.cable.ubr10.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
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  324. # [15:50] <hsivonen> I'm scheduled to give a lecture about HTML5 on Feb 17th for 1.5 hours.
  325. # [15:51] <hsivonen> any experience of what sort of things should particularly be mentioned and what's of peripheral importance and shouldn't be allocated time?
  326. # [15:52] <Lachy> forms
  327. # [15:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: should forms be mentioned or omitted?
  328. # [15:52] <Lachy> yes, mention forms
  329. # [15:52] <hsivonen> by the time my lecture is, the students have already had a lecture about XForms
  330. # [15:52] <hsivonen> s/have/will have/
  331. # [15:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok
  332. # [15:53] <Lachy> that's even more reason to talk about HTML5 forms, since they're far more relevant than XForms
  333. # [15:53] <Lachy> what course are these students studying?
  334. # [15:54] <Lachy> if you know, then try to focus on stuff that will be of relevance to them in some way
  335. # [15:54] <hsivonen> a course on Web Applications at the Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering at Helsinki University of Technology
  336. # [15:54] <Lachy> ok. Then probably talk about the various storage APIs, possibly web sockets
  337. # [15:54] <annevk> design principles (some); web app features;
  338. # [15:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: the lecture topics are at https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-111.5360/luennot
  339. # [15:55] <Lachy> feel free to steal content or ideas from my collection of slides
  340. # [15:55] <Lachy> lachy.id.au/slides/
  341. # [15:56] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, I think I'll start with history and design principles
  342. # [15:56] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  343. # [15:56] <annevk> maybe mention SVG/MathML integration
  344. # [15:57] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://lachy.id.au/slides/hands-on-html5/ has a whole bunch of slides on the design principles
  345. # [15:57] <Lachy> avoid talking about things like datagrid which aren't seeing a whole lot of interest from browsers yet
  346. # [15:59] <jgraham> wow that is some syllabus
  347. # [15:59] <jgraham> XForms and XFormsDB as the second lecture
  348. # [16:00] <Lachy> what is XFormsDB?
  349. # [16:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: How much do you expect the students to already know? e.g. do you need to talk about the use of JS-APIs vs declarative models in XForms?
  350. # [16:01] <jgraham> Lachy: No idea :)
  351. # [16:02] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228077148.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3pre/20090112034247]")
  352. # [16:02] <annevk> https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-111.5360/practical_work has info on XFormsDB
  353. # [16:02] <jgraham> Lachy: https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-111.5360/practical_work
  354. # [16:02] <annevk> hah
  355. # [16:02] <jgraham> :p
  356. # [16:05] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228077148.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  357. # [16:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: I expect them not to know about JS libs beforehand as part of the curriculum
  358. # [16:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: In that case I would spend some time explaining about HTML originally being a Document-centric language but with forms and, in particular, scripting APIs allowing people to extend the capabilities of the language to meet the demand for web based applications rather than just documents
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  362. # [16:25] <jgraham> annevk: The anser to your question on public-html is "Not really"
  363. # [16:26] <jgraham> At laest I think elementtree has a significant ns tax, particularly if you use lxml + xpath
  364. # [16:30] <rubys> since backends are pluggable, how feasible would it be to have ETnoNS and an ETwNS backends?
  365. # [16:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: it seems like lxml + xpath sucks for XML processing, then
  366. # [16:31] * Joins: brucel (n=brucel@92-236-128-204.cable.ubr10.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  367. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for lecture: explanation about the fact that the spec defines a parsing algorithm, and about it being in general a type of functional spec with a key goal of ensuring interoperability among conforming UAs
  368. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> and demos if you have time
  369. # [16:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  370. # [16:40] <jgraham> rubys: It is easy to just have a flag that means "don't set namespaces on HTML elements"
  371. # [16:40] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.18.51)
  372. # [16:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: Maybe. But in the non-namespace case it is by far the nicest python tree-from-angle-bracket-markup API. It sucks that I should be forced to choose beteen using the XHTML namespace everywhere for no reason or using a less nice tree API
  373. # [16:43] <annevk> jgraham, seems like a limitation of Python though
  374. # [16:43] <annevk> not really something we should hardwire in HTML5
  375. # [16:43] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36)
  376. # [16:44] * annevk enjoys the view from his tower
  377. # [16:44] * gsnedders arrives
  378. # [16:45] <jgraham> (this also affects XPath in web browsers AFAICT)
  379. # [16:45] <annevk> nobody has ever defined how that should work so it seems like we could define that in any way we'd like :)
  380. # [16:45] <annevk> i.e. make it work the same
  381. # [16:46] <jgraham> annevk: FWIW I agree that all _browsers_ should be required to do the same thing here. I don't think it should affect other UAs though
  382. # [16:46] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  383. # [16:47] <jgraham> annevk: At the moment, in gecko, XPath in XHTML requires that you implement a NSResolver whilst otherwise you should not
  384. # [16:47] <annevk> I know
  385. # [16:48] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  386. # [16:48] <rubys> fixing it to be the same everywhere is a stronger argument than one that relies on the limitations of a particular Python library (however popular it might be)
  387. # [16:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: that can be solved by using Selectors API :-)
  388. # [16:51] <jgraham> rubys: I don't think that it is just one library though. I think there are lots of cases where tree APIs make life hard with namespaces everywhere. I think the result is that many people will be prepared to break the spec in order to make their user's lives easier
  389. # [16:51] <jgraham> s/with/when you have/
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  391. # [16:52] <rubys> jgraham: that's better
  392. # [16:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: would you still using namespace-aware APIs for SVG and MathML?
  393. # [16:52] <rubys> if the spec is wrong, it should be fixed - for everybody
  394. # [16:52] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  395. # [16:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: that is, do you envision ignoring the namespace or comparing no-namespaceness?
  396. # [16:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: the later
  397. # [16:53] <jgraham> *latter
  398. # [16:53] <rubys> is there a good selectors API implementation for Python? If not, that certainly sounds like a worthy project...
  399. # [16:53] <brucel> Can I butt in to re-start conversation about <small>? (have been away setting up family's new computers)
  400. # [16:53] <jgraham> rubys: I think there might be something built on top of lxml
  401. # [16:53] <hsivonen> rubys: it seems to me that XPath sucks for everyone as far as namespaces go. Still, fixing XPath is pretty far out of scope of HTML5
  402. # [16:53] <gsnedders> How does libxml2 deal with namespaces?
  403. # [16:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: comparing against no-namespacedness is zero win in most APIs
  404. # [16:54] * Quits: fakeolliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-749970591baaef3c) (Remote closed the connection)
  405. # [16:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's a win only in XPath
  406. # [16:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: we should be designing for Selectors instead of XPath anyway :-)
  407. # [16:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is a win in elementree based apis
  408. # [16:55] <rubys> hsivonen: I wasn't referring to that spec. If JGraham wants to say that HTML5 is wrong, he may have a good case.
  409. # [16:55] <jgraham> (they use names of the form {nsuri}tagname to represent namespaced elements
  410. # [16:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: sounds like elementtree is flawed for its primary purpose (representing XML)
  411. # [16:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: Only if you are mostly dealing with namespaced xml. I guess most people are not
  412. # [16:56] <gsnedders> see <http://www.jclark.com/xml/xmlns.htm>
  413. # [16:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: who's dealing with XML and not dealing with namespaces these days (and not being a bozo in the process)?
  414. # [16:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess lots of people parsing simple internal formats like config files. Maybe I am wrong :)
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  427. # [17:38] * gsnedders needs to number the title page of his LaTeX document
  428. # [17:40] <Philip`> No you don't
  429. # [17:40] <Philip`> LaTeX is always right - you can't just disagree with its choices
  430. # [17:41] <jgraham> Philip` is wise
  431. # [17:41] <gsnedders> Sadly, I probably ought to follow what the exam board says
  432. # [17:42] * gsnedders notes no marks are actually given for it, but he still probably ought to
  433. # [17:44] <annevk> just add a note at the end that LaTeX disagreed
  434. # [17:44] <annevk> they might appreciate it
  435. # [17:45] * gsnedders has already ignored half of what he's meant to do, though, to be fair
  436. # [17:45] <gsnedders> each page should be numbered, including the title page and the bibliography
  437. # [17:45] <gsnedders> each page should be single-sided
  438. # [17:45] <gsnedders> each page should be typed in single line spacing
  439. # [17:45] <gsnedders> the font used should be Times New Roman
  440. # [17:45] <gsnedders> the font size should be 12 point
  441. # [17:45] <gsnedders> your text should be left-justified
  442. # [17:45] <gsnedders> titles of texts - novels, plays, poems, critical or reference works - should be in italics, without quotation marks
  443. # [17:45] <gsnedders> quotations, unless only a few words long (when quotation marks should be used), should be preceded and followed by a double line space.
  444. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Fun :\
  445. # [17:45] <hsivonen> if an exam board and LaTeX disagree, chances are LaTeX is right but complying with the board might still be the smart thing to do
  446. # [17:45] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-153-170.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  447. # [17:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, that's my thinking too.
  448. # [17:46] <gsnedders> The problem is getting LaTeX to do the wrong thing is often hard.
  449. # [17:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you could also complain that they require a non-Free font
  450. # [17:46] * gsnedders is using a different non-free font anyway :P
  451. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Namely, Adobe Garamond Pro
  452. # [17:47] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you rebel
  453. # [17:47] <gsnedders> Computer Modern is broken for me, for some reason
  454. # [17:48] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  455. # [17:48] <hsivonen> a person who was inclined to split hairs over things like this once asked me for expert advice in determining how it was possible to produce notably different page counts on university deliverable with Times New Roman in two versions of Word and one version of OOo
  456. # [17:48] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090113020320]")
  457. # [17:49] <hsivonen> too bad my mad skills weren't good enough and it remains a mystery how line layout was so different in different products
  458. # [17:49] <hsivonen> course staff should have specs for counting graphemes or something
  459. # [17:50] <hsivonen> speccing a page count in a certain font is way too imprecise
  460. # [17:51] <Philip`> When I've had to do things with word limits, usually I run "detex | wc -w" to count and then subtract an arbitrary integer so that I can report a number which is within the limit
  461. # [17:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-54-39.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  462. # [17:53] <gsnedders> Also, Computer Modern when I get it working outputs ``…'' for quotes, whereas most sane fonts use “…”
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  465. # [17:55] <jgraham> Philip`: A better method is to use an average of detex and untex and then subtract an arbitary integer
  466. # [17:55] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-71-202-127-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  467. # [17:58] <gsnedders> What the hell? The instructions are inconsistent about reference style!
  468. # [17:59] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
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  487. # [19:27] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  488. # [19:44] * annevk finds http://intertwingly.net/blog/2003/08/13/Quantifying-the-RDF-tax#c1060814010
  489. # [19:45] <annevk> and http://intertwingly.net/blog/2003/08/13/Quantifying-the-RDF-tax#c1060837623
  490. # [19:46] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
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  492. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: interesting
  493. # [19:58] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
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  501. # [20:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: fixed live dom viewer to handle empty documents
  502. # [20:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you're giving a talk to developers, i would recommend not talking about theoretical stuff, especially about forms, and just giving demos of <input type=date> and talking about <input type=color>
  503. # [20:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: then demo a few other features that work in current browsers
  504. # [20:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: and then talk about community and invite them to take part
  505. # [20:30] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-18.dynamic.amis.net)
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  517. # [21:35] * annevk wonders how reputation works on stackoverflow
  518. # [21:35] * annevk seems to be stuck on 41, just 1 point below a great number :)
  519. # [21:36] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  520. # [21:36] <gsnedders> annevk: Not "a […] number". The Number.
  521. # [21:38] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  522. # [21:39] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
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  529. # [22:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-e5bf0412f77d6172)
  530. # [22:20] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  531. # [22:20] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-157882aca632756b)
  532. # [22:24] <Dashiva> Darn, anne caught up with me in the lastweek poll
  533. # [22:24] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-eba6ca6016d64fa2)
  534. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Am I still on zero?
  535. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Yeah
  536. # [22:26] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@232.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  537. # [22:29] <Lachy> I'm still on 2. And one of those votes was mine.
  538. # [22:29] <Lachy> I'm obviously not much of a smeghead
  539. # [22:30] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.191) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  540. # [22:32] <Dashiva> You're probably too productive
  541. # [22:32] <Dashiva> You need to be all talk, like me
  542. # [22:33] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  543. # [22:35] * Hixie breaks shelly's blog
  544. # [22:35] <Hixie> i hate xml
  545. # [22:37] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-97-132.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  546. # [22:39] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  547. # [22:40] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  548. # [22:43] <Hixie> i'm amused at rob burns' comments on shelly's blog
  549. # [22:44] <Hixie> he claims that rdfa would hurt google
  550. # [22:45] <Hixie> when the whole point is that rdf doesn't help anyone on the scale of the web, because of the spam problem
  551. # [22:45] <Hixie> it can only work on a local scale as far as i can tell
  552. # [22:46] <Dashiva> The trust tools will save us
  553. # [22:49] <Lachy> Hixie, which one is Shelly's blog?
  554. # [22:50] <Lachy> ah, this one http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-markup/stop-justifying-rdfa
  555. # [22:50] * Philip` discovers that he can use WebKit in his OpenGL game by being really dumb and just rendering everything to a bitmap surface and uploading as a texture on every frame, and it actually works surprisingly well
  556. # [22:50] <Philip`> and HTML+CSS+JS seems a better GUI development language than the custom library the game currently uses
  557. # [22:50] <gsnedders> If you are giving a name as Surname, First Name where does a Jr. Suffix go?
  558. # [22:52] <Dashiva> It comes after the name in any case
  559. # [22:52] <gsnedders> k
  560. # [22:52] <virtuelv> I thought shelley powers was a "she", no?
  561. # [22:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22smith+john+jr%22+OR+%22smith+jr+john%22
  562. # [22:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: which seems to indicate nobody has made up their mind about which way round it goes
  563. # [22:53] <virtuelv> she is
  564. # [22:53] <virtuelv> bwah, and I misread Hixie completely
  565. # [22:53] <virtuelv> I guess I've gone contextually blind, and missed "rob burns"
  566. # [22:54] <gsnedders> virtuelv: n00b.
  567. # [22:54] <virtuelv> :P
  568. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Is it bad I have a Makefile to turn my dissertation from LaTeX to PDF?
  569. # [22:55] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  570. # [22:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: No
  571. # [22:56] <Dashiva> Philip`: People who don't think don't qualify for having "made up their mind" ;)
  572. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Good.
  573. # [22:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: In my experience it's very common to have a Makefile for that kind of thing
  574. # [22:56] <gsnedders> It also replaces [WC] with a rough word-count
  575. # [22:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: though my experience is limited to a group of about three people
  576. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: Did they per-chance learn about LaTeX from each-other?
  577. # [22:57] <Dashiva> I have a five-line script that just deletes all output and runs the four necessary commands
  578. # [22:57] <Dashiva> It's completely and utterly bogus that the default still requires several incantations to do one simple thing
  579. # [22:57] * Hixie grumbles as the list of reasons for having to define "xml parser", of all things, in the html5 spec grows
  580. # [22:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: They probably started using LaTeX before meeting each other, so they learned by copying random examples from web sites until it looked right
  581. # [22:58] <Philip`> (or at least that's what I did)
  582. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: It seems to be what most people do.
  583. # [22:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-142-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  584. # [22:59] <Dashiva> When it comes to latex, I'm convinced 2 > 5
  585. # [22:59] <gsnedders> :D
  586. # [23:00] <gsnedders> I say we burn Dashiva for saying that.
  587. # [23:00] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  588. # [23:00] * Philip` looks for an example
  589. # [23:00] <Philip`> Oh, actually it has an OMakefile rather than a Makefile
  590. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Issue: wc returns a lot of whitespace too
  591. # [23:01] <Philip`> but it's the same idea, and it just does some gnuplot and xfig conversions, and runs bibtex and then runs pdflatex three times
  592. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Solution: grep -Eo [^[:space:]]+
  593. # [23:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: By "a lot of whitespace" do you mean "one newline at the end"?
  594. # [23:02] <gsnedders> 767
  595. # [23:02] <gsnedders> I.e., it has leading whitespcae
  596. # [23:02] <gsnedders> *whitespace
  597. # [23:03] <Philip`> Not when I run it
  598. # [23:03] <Dashiva> miktex had this wonderful command that would run tex and bibtex and everything else as many times as it needed to
  599. # [23:03] <Philip`> echo 'hello world'|wc -w|hexdump -c
  600. # [23:03] <Philip`> 0000000 2 \n
  601. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: 0000000 2 \n
  602. # [23:03] <gsnedders> 0000009
  603. # [23:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: I tend to use Kile now, which does all that stuff automatically too
  604. # [23:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: Your computer is crazy
  605. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: Certainly.
  606. # [23:04] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.191)
  607. # [23:05] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-e5bf0412f77d6172) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  608. # [23:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: Anyway, you could do sed 's/ //g' which would be much easier to type than [^[:space:]]+ :-)
  609. # [23:05] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-31ea7de15959d486)
  610. # [23:05] <Hixie> dude, g, we don't burn people for disagreeing with us
  611. # [23:05] <Hixie> we listen to them and see whether they have any good reasons for disagreeing
  612. # [23:06] <Hixie> and if they do we adopt them
  613. # [23:06] <Hixie> that way they agree with us again
  614. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I don't have to type it because it is in the makefile, and it only deals with 0020
  615. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: s/g/gsnedders/g dangnamit!
  616. # [23:06] * gsnedders blames BenMillard
  617. # [23:06] <gsnedders> (Or, alternatively, BenMilliard)
  618. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: But it's Dashiva!
  619. # [23:07] <Hixie> "g" is either to type than "g<tab>"
  620. # [23:07] <Dashiva> I'm the shared 5th most smegheaddy person here!
  621. # [23:07] <Hixie> easier even
  622. # [23:07] <Hixie> either is apparently easier to type than easier
  623. # [23:07] * gsnedders headdesks
  624. # [23:08] <gsnedders> But "g" isn't highlighted in my IRC client, and I can't highlight every case of the letter g.
  625. # [23:08] <Hixie> i know
  626. # [23:08] <Hixie> that's what makes it awesome
  627. # [23:08] <Hixie> :-D
  628. # [23:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: So you give me a valid reason to ignore you? :P
  629. # [23:10] <Hixie> oh when i want you to pay attention i'll hit the tab key, don't worry :-P
  630. # [23:11] <Hixie> apparently the guy who wrote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/432933/will-html-5-validation-be-worth-the-candle#434044 missed teh part where we take out everything from the spec that browsers don't implement
  631. # [23:12] <gsnedders> What's this with something creating files starting with ._?
  632. # [23:12] <Hixie> Apple puts its resource forks in ._ files, iirc
  633. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Ah, OS X on a non-HFS+ FS
  634. # [23:13] <Philip`> gsnedders: OCamlMakefile creates temporary directories like ._bcdi, but it seems unlikely to be that
  635. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Also: Anyone know anyway to get Windows to hide POSIX hidden files (i.e., .*)?
  636. # [23:15] <Lachy> gsnedders, enable the NTFS hidden flag for those files
  637. # [23:15] <gsnedders> On a FAT32 FS?
  638. # [23:15] <Lachy> and make sure you do the crazy thing and have hidden files not shown in windows explorer
  639. # [23:15] <Hixie> FAT has a Hidden flag that does the same thing
  640. # [23:15] <Lachy> FAT32 also has a hidden flag, doesn't it?
  641. # [23:16] <Hixie> has had since before you were born, g :-P
  642. # [23:16] <gsnedders> :P
  643. # [23:16] <Lachy> gsnedders, why are you using a FAT32 FS on a windows machine?
  644. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: Because FAT32 is the only FS that actually works everywhere?
  645. # [23:16] <Hixie> "why are you using a windows machine" ftfy (</reddit>)
  646. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Because I don't really want to take my laptop into school all the time, so I'm stuck with the Windows boxes there :P
  647. # [23:17] <Lachy> ok. If you need the disk to be read directly by multiple systems, rather than just having it in the windows machine permanently and access it over network
  648. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Lachy: It's a USB memory stick :P
  649. # [23:17] <Lachy> ok
  650. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Currently mounted at /Volumes/GSNEDDERS
  651. # [23:18] <gsnedders> :P
  652. # [23:18] <gsnedders> (therefore, not /Volumes/G)
  653. # [23:18] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  654. # [23:19] * Lachy wonders how long it will take for a superior file system to replace FAT32 as the defacto standard on USB drives
  655. # [23:21] * gsnedders heads off
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  663. # [23:57] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  664. # Session Close: Fri Jan 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)