/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-04 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 04 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <Lachy> gsnedders, for now, I think you could just focus on getting support for biblio using an internal database or file containing the common RFC and W3C TR entries. Then you can look into providing custom entries after that's done
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# [00:01] <gsnedders> Lachy: I want opinions now! I've basically hidden this Anolis module as my computing project for school :)
# [00:02] <Lachy> but when you do get around to doing custom biblio entries, it would be easiest if I could just specifiy a command line parameter with a file path, pointing to a file using the same format as whatever is used for the internal data file
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# [00:35] <Hixie> so long as pimpmyspec.net supports it...
# [00:35] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
# [00:35] <Hixie> (assuming i'm going to use it)
# [00:36] <Dashiva> pimpmyspec needs some an actually pimpin' options
# [00:36] <Dashiva> -an
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# [00:40] <Hixie> anyone got IE handy?
# [00:40] <Hixie> any version
# [00:40] <Hixie> what does it do with http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/nph-030 ?
# [00:41] <Dashiva> blue
# [00:41] <Dashiva> IE6 win
# [00:41] <Dashiva> *7
# [00:42] <Hixie> thanks
# [00:45] <Hixie> heycam: i've written every word of the html5 spec
# [00:45] <heycam> Hixie, ok. so there has been at least one occasion where i remember you saying that you used text that i suggested. was it reworded instead?
# [00:45] <Hixie> almost certainly
# [00:45] <heycam> ok
# [00:46] <Hixie> there may have been minor exceptions, like one or two lines or some such
# [00:46] <Hixie> but good luck to anyone who wants to try their luck in court over that :-)
# [00:46] <heycam> too small to be copyrightable, perhaps
# [00:46] <Hixie> right
# [00:46] <Dashiva> Like when someone tells you how to change the "relationship to x" parts :)
# [00:47] <Hixie> if such lines were to be a problem, the examples would be a much bigger problem first
# [00:47] <Hixie> (many of them quote things like monty python)
# [00:47] <Hixie> (one even quotes part of the svg spec's copyright notice...)
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# [00:59] <Lachy> Hixie, first example in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-section-element copied verbatim from http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-December/000157.html
# [00:59] <Lachy> I'll see you in court! ;-)
# [01:00] * Dashiva wonders how much HTML5 is in Lachy's text...
# [01:00] <Lachy> Dashiva, shh!
# [01:00] <Dashiva> Smells like settlement
# [01:00] <Hixie> Lachy: opera owns your work, and opera is one of the copyright owners of html5, so good luck with that :-P
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# [01:01] <Lachy> ah, damnit
# [01:01] <Hixie> this is not my first barbequeue :-P
# [01:03] <heycam> barbecue?
# [01:03] <heycam> bbq.enqueue(aSausage)
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# [01:05] <Lachy> heycam, the correct spelling is Barbeque. Barbecue is the American spelling
# [01:05] <heycam> Lachy, ok thanks. i was tricked by gtk's spell checking text box. =)
# [01:06] <Hixie> oops, i had a banana problem with my barbeque
# [01:06] <Hixie> how embarassing
# [01:06] <sicking> haha
# [01:06] <Lachy> heycam, set your spell checker to en-AU instead of en-US
# [01:06] * slightlyoff_afk is now known as slightlyoff
# [01:06] <heycam> let's just call it a barbie and be done with it :)
# [01:07] * heycam wonders where he might do that
# [01:07] <Lachy> heycam, careful, the non-Aussies here might think you're talking about a toy doll
# [01:08] * Dashiva looks for shrimps to toss
# [01:08] <Lachy> (that is, unless I'm mistaken about "barbie" being aussie slang)
# [01:09] <heycam> it's certainly a commonly parodied contraction...
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# [01:11] <sicking> if they were having fosters at the barbie i think it's pretty safe to assume it's authentic Australian
# [01:11] <heycam> lol
# [01:11] * heycam is always surprised to see fosters advertised when abroad
# [01:11] <Lachy> sicking, real Aussies don't drink Fosters. That's the crap we export
# [01:12] <sicking> Lachy, i know :)
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# [01:14] <heycam> is it en_UK or en_GB?
# [01:15] <heycam> aspell doesn't seem to have en_AU support
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# [01:17] <Lachy> heycam, en-GB
# [01:17] <heycam> hmm, i've always had LANG=en_AU.UTF-8
# [01:17] <Lachy> I'm not sure what variants en-UK would have
# [01:17] <heycam> i wonder if that underscore is wrong
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# [02:11] <robburns> zcorpan: saw your comments on tHTML. That div in head was an error on my part. Not at all the type of parsing I intended. Thanks for pointing it out.
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# [02:34] <heycam> does <script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> mean anything special beyond <script type="text/javascript">?
# [02:36] <roc> yeah, it enables language features
# [02:36] <heycam> without a version, what does it default to?
# [02:36] * heycam is wondering how to expose JS-that's-not-ES232 features in batik
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# [02:37] <roc> you quickly reached the limits of my knowledge
# [02:37] <heycam> :)
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# [02:45] * Hixie wishes there was no out-of-band versioning data for JS
# [02:46] <heycam> so basically i was wondering if it would be reasonable to make <svg:script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> turn on the relevant feature flags in rhino
# [02:47] <heycam> or perhaps even distinguish between {text,application}/javascript and {text,application}/ecmascript to turn on the features
# [02:48] <heycam> currently all JS-and-not-ES features are turned off, and i'm enjoying using 'for each' and 'let' lately in my own project using rhino
# [02:48] <heycam> so though it might be good to expose them somehow
# [02:49] <Hixie> any reason they can't just be turned on by default?
# [02:49] <heycam> only my lack of knowledge about what the appropriate thing to do is
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# [02:51] * gavin_ tries and fails to determine how gecko handles a missing version
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# [02:52] <gavin_> we end up with JSVERSION_UNKNOWN at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/base/nsJSEnvironment.cpp#3676 , and I don't see where that case is handled
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# [02:52] <gavin_> (in the JS engine)
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# [02:52] <gavin_> I suppose that just means it falls back to "default" language features
# [02:53] <heycam> might be http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsParserUtils.cpp#282 that does that
# [02:55] <gavin_> oh, actually I misread
# [02:55] <gavin_> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#391 takes another path if there is no version at all
# [02:57] <gavin_> and in fact we'd actually end up in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#442 without the type="" attribtue at all
# [02:57] <gavin_> ...and you already found that
# [02:58] * heycam goes to lunch, thanks for looking gavin_
# [02:59] <gavin_> needed something to get my mind off fennec panning code :)
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# [03:14] <Hixie> good lord
# [03:14] <Hixie> what have i gotten myself into
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# [03:23] <Dashiva> Is that a rhetorical question?
# [03:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's hard to figure out a unique referent for that complaint
# [03:29] <Hixie> the direct referrent was the big swamp of a mess around the presentational attributes for setting margins on <body>
# [03:29] <Hixie> and more generally the rendering section as a whole
# [03:29] <Hixie> and more generally still, html5.
# [03:30] <Dashiva> Just a few more steps until all of creation
# [03:31] <Hixie> i only took responsibility for html5 :-P
# [03:35] <Dashiva> Pssh, surely you'll need something to do after 2022
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# [03:37] <jruderman> annevk: you might enjoy opera bug 246216
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# [03:42] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'll wait til 2022 to find out what i feel like doing :-P
# [03:48] <Hixie> holy crap
# [03:48] <Hixie> i can set the margins on a <body> element cross-domain in all four major browsers
# [03:49] <roc> woohoo
# [03:49] <Hixie> i can't think of any way to abuse that off the top of my head
# [03:49] <Hixie> but that's surprising nonetheless
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# [05:32] <Hixie> Dashiva: any of them include use cases?
# [05:38] <Dashiva> Looks more like the requesting uses cases kind
# [05:38] <Dashiva> *use
# [05:38] <Hixie> well at least it takes about use cases then i guess
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# [06:11] <dbaron> are the non-fieldset uses of <legend> in HTML5 intended to be display:block or display:inline ?
# [06:11] <Hixie> block
# [06:11] <dbaron> I'm guessing display:block, but I'm not sure...
# [06:11] <dbaron> k
# [06:11] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#display-types
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# [06:12] <Hixie> (that section is very new and very much a work in progress; please let me know if you spot any mistakes but don't be surprised to see basic things wrong there)
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# [10:30] <annevk> jruderman, I'm not a huge fan of the mess that is CSS syntax, but sure :)
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# [10:47] * annevk found a CSS 2.1 bug in IE8 by studying a handful of CSS 2.1 compliance tests from MS
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# [10:48] <othermaciej> heh
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# [11:20] <annevk> why should width="0032" not be valid?
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# [11:22] <annevk> Hixie, also "0032" does not return an error per the algorithm...
# [11:22] <annevk> Hixie, for dimension values
# [11:25] <annevk> Hixie, the step of collecting 0 characters after the fraction substeps is not necessary
# [11:25] <Hixie> it's necessary to drop "0.9"
# [11:25] <Hixie> and it doesn't matter what's valid
# [11:26] <Hixie> in fact i've commented out the definition of "valid dimension value" in the working copy
# [11:26] <Hixie> since nothing uses it
# [11:27] <annevk> I see... my last comment still stands though
# [11:27] <Hixie> oh after the fraction substeps
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# [11:28] <Hixie> wow what's that doing there
# [11:28] * Hixie removes
# [11:29] <annevk> Hixie, "maps to the dimension property" uses both <var>properties</var> and <var>property</var>
# [11:30] <Hixie> thx
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# [11:47] * annevk finds out zcorpan joined the XML Core WG
# [11:47] <zcorpan> about time :)
# [11:48] <zcorpan> (not that you found out but that i joined)
# [11:52] <Hixie> i saw that too
# [11:52] <Hixie> what made you join the xml core wg? :-)
# [11:53] <annevk> going to change their mind about xml:id? :p
# [11:53] <othermaciej> that would be a boon to mankind
# [11:53] <hsivonen> yes, please!
# [11:53] <zcorpan> update xml-stylesheet
# [11:54] <zcorpan> i guess i have to make opera drop support for xml:id before suggesting the wg drop it
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# [11:56] <Hixie> holy crap, you're giving xml-stylesheet the 5 treatment?
# [11:56] <Hixie> that'd be awesome
# [11:57] <Hixie> does that mean anne is going to do the cssom side too? :-)
# [11:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5
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# [11:58] * Hixie jumps into that spec and feels eerily familiar with a lot of the text :-P
# [11:58] <Lachy> Hixie, re the list header thread, I was thinking the same thing but using an <h1> element instead. like <figure><h1>A header for the list</h1><ul><li>...</ul></figure>
# [11:58] <Lachy> but I suppose <legend> is reasonable
# [11:59] <Hixie> h1 would screw up the outline
# [11:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: i wrote it from scratch! promise! :rolleyes:
# [11:59] <Lachy> no, cause <figure> is a sectioning root, and the spec says it wouldn't
# [11:59] <Hixie> unless they really wanted that, in which case <section> would be better than <legend>
# [11:59] <Hixie> oh it is?
# [11:59] <Hixie> sweet
# [11:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: :-P
# [12:00] <Hixie> zcorpan: re 3.1 Conformance constraints
# [12:00] <Lachy> Hixie, could you make a note to add an example of this use case to the spec
# [12:00] <Lachy> or I could send mail if you like
# [12:01] <Hixie> zcorpan: it's unclear what those conformance requirements mean. are they well-formedness checks, or just conforamnce requirements that mean nothing except to any implement except henri?
# [12:01] <Hixie> Lachy: file a bug or send mail, yes please
# [12:01] <Hixie> Lachy: note that i just added it to the faq
# [12:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: the latter
# [12:02] <Hixie> zcorpan: section 4 explained it to me, yeah. a note in 3 would be helpful.
# [12:02] <zcorpan> noted. thanks
# [12:02] <Hixie> zcorpan: (in particular, because with xml, one never knows what is expected to be the end of the world and what should be ignored)
# [12:03] <Hixie> zcorpan: (it wouldn't be a big deal if this was, say, css or html)
# [12:03] <Hixie> man, i've really corrupted y'all
# [12:03] <Hixie> this state machine feels eerily familiar!
# [12:04] <zcorpan> lol
# [12:06] <Hixie> "must stop the state machine so that pseudo-attributes can be processed" could be clearer, it wasn't obvious to me how important that sentence was (namely that it represents the "output" of the algorithm) on my first reading. I don't have a good suggestion for improving it though.
# [12:07] <Hixie> btw, your <dfn> elements aren't styled, which makes understanding what terms are special harder than ideal
# [12:07] <zcorpan> i switched to the w3c style sheet
# [12:08] <Hixie> "the user agent must begin to download the resource" should probably be a "should", since there are numerous reasons why the UA might not actually download the resource
# [12:08] <Hixie> e.g. the user is roaming on a different continent and style sheets cost $3 per byte
# [12:08] <annevk> Hixie, for background="...", shouldn't it set background-image to "url(" absolute URL ")" ...
# [12:09] <Hixie> er yes
# [12:09] <Hixie> er well
# [12:09] <Hixie> hm
# [12:09] <annevk> CSS doesn't quite define the appropriate hooks I'm afraid
# [12:09] <Hixie> yeah
# [12:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: changed
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# [12:11] <Hixie> looks like a good spec overall
# [12:11] <Hixie> you're going to need hooks into anne's non-existent (iirc) cssom draft
# [12:11] <Hixie> e.g. to define how this hooks up to alternative style sheets
# [12:12] <annevk> it does actually exist, but I haven't found time to work on it in the past year or so :/
# [12:12] <Hixie> annevk: i'm going to leave it as setting it to hte URL, and claim that url(...) is a URL (and that a URL isn't a string)
# [12:12] <Hixie> annevk: i know, i'm just teasing :-)
# [12:12] * Hixie finds that working on two drafts at a time is hard enough
# [12:13] * jgraham wishes he knew why his hard drive was spinning so much
# [12:13] <Hixie> what OS?
# [12:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks
# [12:14] <hsivonen> I believe annevk is right and Rob Burns isn't when it comes to Unicode normalization in a conforming XML processor
# [12:15] <jgraham> Hixie: Linux (Ubuntu)
# [12:15] <Hixie> jgraham: use lsof(1)
# [12:17] <annevk> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#file-upload-state .value does apply to <input type=file> ...
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# [12:19] <Hixie> annevk: send mail
# [12:19] <Hixie> or file a bug
# [12:19] <Hixie> you're right, i should just make it apply with mode "filename" or some such
# [12:19] <annevk> I'll file a bug
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# [12:54] <Hixie> i like how every browser supports font-size:xxx-large
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# [12:59] <annevk> I like how for filing spec bugs test cases are not a requirement
# [13:00] <annevk> Hixie, Opera does not
# [13:01] <annevk> Hixie, Firefox does not...
# [13:01] <Hixie> hey look at that
# [13:01] <Hixie> there's a bug in my testcase
# [13:01] <Hixie> nevermind!
# [13:01] <Lachy> Hixie, we have a bug about submitting forms to fragment identifiers. e.g. <form action="#top">. I can't figure out from the spec what the expected behaviour is supposed to be
# [13:02] <Hixie> ?
# [13:05] <Hixie> per spec, the fragment identifier should have no effect
# [13:05] <Hixie> (except for changing how the url is resolved)
# [13:05] <annevk> though it should survive the request and potential redirects
# [13:05] <Hixie> (in the presence of a <base> element, e.g.)
# [13:05] <Hixie> yeah
# [13:07] <Lachy> ok
# [13:09] <annevk> oh great, Opera has a bug per HTML5 in font handling
# [13:09] <annevk> <font size=+> is treated as a presentional hint
# [13:09] <Hixie> really?
# [13:10] <annevk> yeah, but not in e.g. Firefox
# [13:10] <Hixie> oh yeah
# [13:10] <Hixie> weird
# [13:10] <Hixie> opera only
# [13:10] * annevk checks IE
# [13:10] <annevk> yeah, Opera only
# [13:14] <annevk> but hey, our behavior is conforming anyway :p
# [13:15] <Hixie> conforming but "unexpected" :-)
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# [13:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: "The td and th elements' height attributes map to the dimension property 'height' on the element." is stated twice
# [13:26] <Hixie> i removed a copy, i hope that was not a more serious error
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# [13:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: surely <div align=justify> should justify the text, not left-align?
# [13:33] <Hixie> you'd think
# [13:33] <Hixie> can you get IE to justify text?
# [13:33] <zcorpan> just tested in opera and firefox
# [13:34] <zcorpan> ie8
# [13:34] <zcorpan> yep
# [13:34] <zcorpan> also in quirks mode
# [13:36] <Hixie> url?
# [13:37] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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# [13:37] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dwidth%3A100px%20align%3Djustify%3Etest%20tes%20te%20st%20fdkjla%20fdalk%20fds%20fjd%20sfs%20afsd
# [13:38] <annevk> same for IE6
# [13:39] <zcorpan> i see it for <td> though
# [13:40] <zcorpan> however opera, firefox and webkit justify for <td>
# [13:41] <zcorpan> and i haven't seen pages break because of it
# [13:42] <zcorpan> so i'd go with the majority :)
# [13:43] <zcorpan> in fact, ie doesn't support 'justify' on tables at all
# [13:43] <zcorpan> <table><tr align=right><td align=justify>foo bar
# [13:43] <zcorpan> is right-aligned
# [13:44] <zcorpan> (insert width=100% on the table tag)
# [13:44] <annevk> ooh, did zcorpan just beat Hixie in a reverse engineering match? :D
# [13:45] <jgraham> I guess Kixie is lining up for a killer blow :)
# [13:45] <jgraham> *Hixie
# [13:45] <Hixie> i was testing <div> inside <caption> primarily, iirc
# [13:48] <zcorpan> justifies for me
# [13:48] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20width%3D100%25%20border%3E%0D%0A%3Ccaption%20width%3D100%25%20style%3Dborder%3Asolid%3E%20%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
# [13:49] <Hixie> i wonder what i was doing
# [13:49] <Hixie> oh well
# [13:52] <Hixie> fixed
# [13:53] * annevk changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- zcorpan 1 : Hixie 0'
# [13:59] <Hixie> ok tomorrow i begin on 10.4 Self-contained features
# [13:59] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Dright%3E%0D%0A%20%3Ctable%20border%20style%3Dmargin-right%3Aauto%3E%3Ctd%3Ex
# [13:59] <Hixie> feel free to send mail on 10.3 stuff
# [13:59] <Hixie> i'm going to bed now
# [13:59] <Hixie> nn
# [13:59] <zcorpan> nn
# [14:00] <jgraham> goodnight
# [14:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200902/validating_wai-aria_in_html_and_xhtml/ - apparently roger wants html4+aria with landmarks, too
# [14:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does at least one of Gecko/WebKit/Presto/Trident expose landmarks to AT?
# [14:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: there's no dedicated way to expose landmarks (yet), but gecko expose them as any other (unknown) role, i think
# [14:14] <zcorpan> or maybe that has changed now, i haven't followed aria stuff closely lately; ask aaronlev
# [14:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
# [14:15] <zcorpan> i am unaware of any browser+AT combination that does something useful with landmarks
# [14:15] <zcorpan> but as i said i'm not on top of the topic :)
# [14:18] <annevk> we need more spec minions
# [14:20] * ap|away is now known as ap
# [14:21] <hsivonen> does anyone have concrete data that shows the necessity of autodetecting BOMless UTF-16?
# [14:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: No, but define "necessity"
# [14:22] <hsivonen> I want to avoid the problems that accidental detection as UTF-16 causes if at all possible
# [14:22] <annevk> maybe for non-Western sites generated by PHP that do not declare an encoding but are using UTF-16? (PHP has issues with BOM)
# [14:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: something that would be considered a regression that'd need fixing in Gecko
# [14:25] <hsivonen> so far I know that if Chinese probabilities are loaded but Cyrillic probabilities aren't, bad stuff can happen on Cyrillic sites
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# [14:27] <zcorpan> got email from stevef: [[ supported in JAWS 10
# [14:27] <zcorpan>
# [14:27] <zcorpan> detailed info
# [14:27] <zcorpan> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=106
# [14:27] <zcorpan> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/landmarks.html ]]
# [14:27] <hsivonen> thanks
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# [14:28] <hsivonen> I don't like the way the implementation order of HTML5 intrinsic landmarks and ARIA landmarks played out, but I guess that's enough of a reason to stop trying to object to ARIA landmarks
# [14:28] <annevk> not enough*
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# [14:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, would you have preferred implementers to get the HTML5 elements implemented first, reducing the need for aria landmarks at all?
# [14:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'd have preferred HTML5 elements getting exposed as landmarks first and then not doing ARIA landmarks at all
# [14:35] <annevk> agreed, that would have benefited authors as well
# [14:35] <Lachy> yeah, that's basically what I argued for when the aria discussion started
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# [14:45] <yecril71> Attributes in XHTML are in the default namespace.
# [14:46] <annevk> they are not in a namespace
# [14:46] <yecril71> Therefore, xhtml:content would not refer to anything particular.
# [14:48] <yecril71> All right, I should have rather used "global namespace" instead.
# [14:49] <yecril71> List headers can be simulated using DL; I have updated the FAQ with an example.
# [14:49] <hsivonen> yecril71: the right term is "in no namespace"
# [14:50] <hsivonen> actually, "not in a namespace" as anne said is probably even more correct
# [14:51] <yecril71> so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail?
# [14:51] <hsivonen> yecril71: "not in a namespace" is represented as null as the NS URI in the DOM
# [14:51] <hsivonen> as the empty string in SAX
# [14:52] <yecril71> so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail?
# [14:52] <hsivonen> yes
# [14:52] <yecril71> Thx
# [14:54] <annevk> getAttributeNS(null, "content") is the same as getAttributeNS("", "content") fwiw
# [14:54] <hsivonen> oh
# [14:54] <yecril71> Sorry for getting the parameters upside down :-(
# [14:55] <hsivonen> annevk: is that a Web DOM thing or a W3C DOM thing?
# [14:55] <annevk> hsivonen, W3C DOM aliases "" and null
# [14:56] <yecril71> Is it possible to go out of namespace with xmlns attribute?
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# [14:57] <yecril71> (to leave the current namespace, that is)
# [14:59] <hsivonen> yecril71: do you mean xmlns=""?
# [15:01] <yecril71> I thought xmlns="" restores the global namespace.
# [15:01] <annevk> there's no global namespace
# [15:01] <annevk> that's XML 2.0 fiction
# [15:01] <yecril71> Aha.
# [15:02] <yecril71> So the effect is "no namespace", right?
# [15:03] <Philip`> Is it something like xmlns="" or xmlns:foo="" that's forbidden in XML 1.0 but allowed in XML 1.1?
# [15:04] <yecril71> xmlns:foo="" is forbidden.
# [15:04] <yecril71> "The empty namespace must go unprefixed", MSXML says.
# [15:06] <Lachy> yecril71, using a <dl> to simulate a list header doesn't seem semantically correct to me
# [15:07] <yecril71> It is part of a larger paradigm, using DL to simulate a record.
# [15:08] <yecril71> In JSON, it would go { apples: [ ... ] }
# [15:08] <annevk> Philip`, it's xmlns:foo="" though there has been talk on lifting the restriction
# [15:09] <Philip`> annevk: Lifting it in a new edition of XML 1.0?
# [15:09] <annevk> of Namespaces in XML 1.0
# [15:10] <annevk> the wording is not that good either currently "In such declarations, the namespace name may not be empty."
# [15:10] <annevk> I think I raised that as an issue
# [15:10] * Philip` is being too lazy to write "Namespaces in" when he refers to it :-)
# [15:11] <yecril71> It is not clear whether "name" refers to the prefix or to the URL.
# [15:11] <yecril71> I would say it refers to the prefix because it is more like a name.
# [15:11] <annevk> Philip`, actually, maybe it won't be changed, see NE14 in http://www.w3.org/XML/2006/xml-names-errata
# [15:12] * Philip` decides to not see NE14, since he's currently using Cygwin and it takes far too much effort to copy-and-paste a URL
# [15:17] * Philip` finds Minefield complaining that the Microsoft .NET Framework Assistant extension is incompatible, which is a bit confusing since he never installed that extension
# [15:18] <zcorpan> whey, basefont?
# [15:18] <zcorpan> why did Hixie spec basefont?
# [15:19] <zcorpan> i thought we could get away with not supporting it
# [15:21] <annevk> don't we support it?
# [15:22] <zcorpan> no (iirc)
# [15:22] <zcorpan> only ie supports it
# [15:22] <annevk> afaict we do
# [15:22] <hsivonen> in IE8 mode?
# [15:23] <annevk> Firefox does not
# [15:25] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%3Cbasefont%20size%3D7%3E1%3Cfont%20size%3D%2B0%3ELARGE?%3C%2Ffont%3E
# [15:25] <annevk> IE of course supports it in a way that is different from most browsers, it actually encloses elements
# [15:26] <annevk> HTML5 does not support it in the IE way
# [15:26] <zcorpan> oh we only support it for relative size on <font>
# [15:26] <zcorpan> ok
# [15:27] <annevk> what does WebKit do?
# [15:27] <zcorpan> same as firefox
# [15:27] <annevk> seems better to drop it then
# [15:28] <annevk> going with something that's Opera compatible and not IE/Gecko/WebKit compatible is bound to be troubling
# [15:29] <zcorpan> it's only not compatible with ie if people include </basefont>
# [15:29] <Lachy> yikes! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0029.html
# [15:29] <annevk> in my testcase IE renders "1" very large as well
# [15:30] <annevk> per HTML5 and Opera it should not
# [15:32] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. i don't object to dropping it :)
# [15:33] <zcorpan> Lachy: hmm, i don't see how the "mime type document" is in conflict with html5
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# [15:37] <Lachy> I don't know either
# [15:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the mime type document encourages people to serve DOM Consistency-violating XHTML+RDFa docs as text/html
# [15:38] <zcorpan> ah
# [15:39] <Lachy> oh, wow. The old NOTE that I read didn't say anything about RDF
# [15:39] <zcorpan> but that's more a problem of RDFa violating DOM Consistency
# [15:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: the note tiptoes around RDFa without being too specific about it, but it you read carefully, it doesn't put RDFa in the same bucket as MathML
# [15:40] <Lachy> hsivonen, the mime types draft says "In particular, 'text/html' is NOT suitable for XHTML Family document types that add elements and attributes from foreign namespaces, such as XHTML+MathML [XHTML+MathML]."
# [15:40] <Lachy> oh
# [15:40] <Lachy> I havne't read it in detail. Maybe I will later
# [15:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, the RDFa attributes themselves aren't from a foreign namespace
# [15:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: xmlns:foo could be construed to be, but only in the DOM representation
# [15:41] <hsivonen> s/DOM/XML DOM/
# [15:41] <hsivonen> infoset-wise, one might argue that xmlns:foo slips past the qualification
# [15:42] <Lachy> I suppose, technically, now it is in conflict with HTML5 because it says you can't use MathML in text/html, but now HTML5 says you can
# [15:42] <hsivonen> well, that, too
# [15:44] <zcorpan> when i commented on it, i mostly just tried to make the guidelines suck less
# [15:45] <zcorpan> now they do suck less, but it's still possible to make harsh comments
# [15:45] <zcorpan> maybe i should take a second pass someday
# [15:46] <hsivonen> it might be that Dean sees a different conflict that I'm not noticing
# [15:48] <Lachy> I'm not sure what problems Dean sees. I just think his approach to it, regardless of whether his concerns are valid or not, isn't the most constructive
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# [15:49] <hsivonen> I agree. but I can see how someone might get annoyed by a WG proceeding to publish without responding to feedback
# [15:54] <zcorpan> they didn't address all my comments, i think
# [15:55] <annevk> some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well
# [15:55] <zcorpan> they said they'd fix my issues going forward
# [15:55] <zcorpan> and i checked back sometime and they had fixed some things
# [15:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and IIRC, initially it looked like some participant(s?) were willing to ignore all your comments
# [15:55] <zcorpan> then suddenly it was published without them going back to me asking if the result was ok
# [15:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer?
# [15:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'd have to wade through the telecon minutes
# [15:56] <hsivonen> let's see if Google can do it for me
# [15:56] <zcorpan> don't put too much effort into it :)
# [15:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html
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# [15:57] <hsivonen> "what is obligation - have to respond, but not address or satisfy all comments if cannot be satisfied?" "can we simply thank him?"
# [15:59] <zcorpan> uh yeah
# [15:59] <zcorpan> "you're welcome"
# [15:59] <zcorpan> thanks
# [15:59] <zcorpan> gotta go
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# [16:03] <karlcow> [09:52] <annevk> some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well
# [16:03] <karlcow> annevk: same here, I still have a lot of unanswered comments, but I'm not requesting anything. :)
# [16:04] <karlcow> Maybe I just react too strongly on the way people behave sometimes. :)
# [16:04] <hsivonen> karlcow: do you have outstanding comments on drafts or on docs that exited their draft stage?
# [16:05] <annevk> yeah, if they just published as WD it would've been different
# [16:06] <karlcow> in 8 years, I think most of the comments I have done during last call have been answered. It has happened some of my comments have not been taken into account, but that's life. There's nothing wrong with that.
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# [16:09] <karlcow> for XHTML 2.0 specifically There are around 60 comments (from me) in the pipe
# [16:09] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/fantasai/statuses/1174794173
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# [16:17] <Lachy> I've just accepted the fact that I'm unlikely to ever get a response to the issues I raised against XHTML2 in 2004 and 2005, and now just ignore the work completely.
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# [17:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: Every word of the spec? Man, get a life!
# [17:44] <gsnedders> :D
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# [17:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: 256526 words if I got it right
# [17:53] <jgraham> (that seems rather long)
# [17:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Get a life too.
# [17:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: If I had a life I would not have written html5lib and so that would not have been much an easy question to get the wrong answer to
# [17:54] <jgraham> (er, I should say helped to write html5lib)
# [17:55] <jgraham> (since other people did all the important and difficult bits)
# [17:55] <annevk> really? I thought you did the difficult bits
# [17:55] <annevk> at least when we started out :)
# [17:57] <jgraham> annevk: Well Philip` has rewritten all the entity decoding stuff at leasst once
# [17:58] <jgraham> Which is important and difficult :)
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# [17:58] * gsnedders has a broken implementation of that
# [17:58] <gsnedders> Out of date, too
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# [18:01] * jgraham hopes that Philip` only has UCS4 builds of python because the patch to get the right number of errors in the tokenizer for non-BMP characters will be slooow
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# [18:21] <annevk> did zcorpan comment on public-html regarding multicol and spacer not needing display:block ?
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# [18:25] <annevk> surely "table[XXX] > tr > td" is not needed for legacy content
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# [18:53] <zcorpan> annevk: i didn't
# [18:55] <annevk> you can thank me then :p
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# [18:56] <zcorpan> thank you
# [18:57] <zcorpan> wait, will i have to attend to telecons?
# [18:57] <zcorpan> i'm already having second thoughts about this
# [18:57] <annevk> XML Core WG?
# [18:57] <zcorpan> yeah
# [18:58] <annevk> just explain them your idea and ask whether it can be done without attending telcons
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# [19:42] <takkaria> playing with canvas is actually quite fun
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# [23:08] <Lachy> I don't recall Firefox 2's parser creating a fieldset element when it saw a legend element outside of one. I wonder why that would have been introduced in Firefox 3
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# [23:16] <Hixie> pretty sure ff2 did it too
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# [23:24] <Lachy> oh, you're right. It does do it. It's odd that I wasn't aware of that behaiour
# [23:27] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah, if you get caught having a spy plant a nuke in Civ2 everyone declares war on you. I forgot that.
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# [23:36] <Lachy> gsnedders, what?
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# [23:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: Nothing
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# [23:38] <Lachy> gsnedders, it's just that what you said is even more ambiguous than some of your tweets
# [23:38] <Lachy> oh, that was one of your tweets :-)
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# Session Close: Thu Feb 05 00:00:00 2009

The end :)