/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: billmason (n=bmason@ip102.unival.com) ("Leaving.")
  4. # [00:07] <Hixie> sicking: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/5
  5. # [00:08] <Hixie> i guess we could remove the check
  6. # [00:08] <Hixie> and just always clone
  7. # [00:08] * sicking is still looking at example
  8. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie, i need to look at that in henris HTML5 dom-live-viewer right?
  9. # [00:09] <Hixie> wait, hsivonen was asking for a flag for whether it had parser-inserted children
  10. # [00:09] <Hixie> sicking: or webkit
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> sicking: the AAA in HTML5 is the same as webkit's residual style handling (so long as you only have one block)
  12. # [00:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: when would that algorithm ever _not_ have parser-inserted children?
  13. # [00:10] <sicking> Hixie, "the AAA"?
  14. # [00:10] <Hixie> Adoption Agency Algorithm. residual style in html5.
  15. # [00:10] <sicking> ah
  16. # [00:12] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090210022740]")
  17. # [00:13] <Hixie> (from the spec: "Because of the way this algorithm causes elements to change parents, it has been dubbed the "adoption agency algorithm" (in contrast with other possibly algorithms for dealing with misnested content, which included the "incest algorithm", the "secret affair algorithm", and the "Heisenberg algorithm").")
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> heisenberg's = mozilla, secret affair = opera, incest = ie
  19. # [00:13] <sicking> yeah, i know what the algorithm does
  20. # [00:13] <sicking> what still confuses me is when it makes a difference which of the two forks it uses
  21. # [00:14] <sicking> i.e. the has-children and don't-have-children forks
  22. # [00:14] <Hixie> i'm actually unsure as to when you can ever not have children without scripting
  23. # [00:14] <Hixie> and why we care about that case
  24. # [00:14] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe we can remove the if statement altogether
  25. # [00:14] <sicking> that would be nice :)
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> i hate this algorithm, i only barely understood it when i was writing it and implementing it
  27. # [00:15] <sicking> since i won't have to challange you to a fight of doom over the feedback
  28. # [00:15] <Hixie> hah
  29. # [00:16] <Hixie> i'm gonna remove the if statement and see if anyone complains.
  30. # [00:16] <sicking> haha
  31. # [00:16] <sicking> sold!
  32. # [00:16] <sicking> i'm still not sure how to detect a difference between the two forks
  33. # [00:17] <sicking> but i don't care as long as this thing goes :)
  34. # [00:17] <Hixie> oh, wait...
  35. # [00:17] * Hixie studies further
  36. # [00:18] <sicking> Hixie, in your example, if i remove the script, the DOM still looks the same
  37. # [00:19] <Hixie> yeah i was wrong
  38. # [00:19] <Hixie> here:
  39. # [00:19] <Hixie> it's the difference between:
  40. # [00:19] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html><i><em><div></i>xxxx
  41. # [00:19] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html><i><em>xxxx<div></i>xxxx
  42. # [00:19] * ojan|eseidel is now known as ojan
  43. # [00:19] <Hixie> in the former case, html5 just moves the original <em> down
  44. # [00:19] <Hixie> in the latter case, it clones it
  45. # [00:20] <Hixie> (the <div> doesn't count as being a child of the <em> because it's removed earlier in the algorithm)
  46. # [00:20] <sicking> so we're trying to avoid creating the extra <em>?
  47. # [00:20] <Hixie> yeah
  48. # [00:21] * sicking start to warm up the fight-of-doom arena
  49. # [00:21] <Hixie> it becomes a big deal when you have a lot of missing end tags (e.g. a lot of <font> with no </font>) iirc
  50. # [00:21] <sicking> right
  51. # [00:21] <Hixie> the problem with keeping track of whether the parser inserted any nodes into each node in the stack is that that's actually not enough
  52. # [00:21] <Hixie> you have to keep track of how many children
  53. # [00:21] <sicking> why is there always an 'i' outside the <div> though?
  54. # [00:22] <Hixie> (0 or 1 or 2)
  55. # [00:22] <Hixie> 2+ rather
  56. # [00:22] <Hixie> the element being closed is always cloned because not doing so would make the algorithm orders of magnitude more complex still
  57. # [00:23] <Hixie> iirc
  58. # [00:23] <sicking> ok
  59. # [00:23] <sicking> that's probably why i failed to figure this out last time
  60. # [00:24] <Hixie> yeah this is definitely one of the most obscure parts of the spec
  61. # [00:24] <Hixie> easily on par with xbl2 in terms of headaches
  62. # [00:24] <sicking> actually, that doesn't seem right either
  63. # [00:24] <sicking> <!DOCTYPE html><i><em><em><em><div></i>xxxx
  64. # [00:24] <sicking> that clones all but the inner most <em>
  65. # [00:24] <sicking> so if you have lots of opened <font>s, you'll still clone all but the last it looks like
  66. # [00:24] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  67. # [00:24] <sicking> unless henri has a bug
  68. # [00:25] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
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  70. # [00:27] <sicking> Hixie, and safari seems to clone them all
  71. # [00:27] <sicking> though maybe we're trying to do better than safari?
  72. # [00:30] <Hixie> hm, maybe it's not an optimisation
  73. # [00:30] <Hixie> yeah maybe we should simplify this by not removing the furthest block node from its parent and then just not checking for children
  74. # [00:30] <Hixie> and always cloning
  75. # [00:31] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.158)
  76. # [00:31] <sicking> Hixie, my first question is what we're trying to accomplish with the check :)
  77. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie, optimizting away empty element i suspect is actually worth it
  78. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah, but as you point out, we're not doing it enough
  79. # [00:32] <Hixie> if we want to do it we should do a proper job
  80. # [00:32] <Hixie> which is a whole other problem
  81. # [00:32] <sicking> yup
  82. # [00:32] <sicking> Hixie, i do know that we (=gecko) suffer, or at least used to suffer, on pages with lots of opened-but-not-closed <font>s
  83. # [00:33] <Hixie> yeah
  84. # [00:33] <sicking> but we might never have considered it common enough to fix
  85. # [00:33] <Hixie> ok i've changed it to not do the check
  86. # [00:34] <Hixie> but i think we might want to make a more general fix at one point
  87. # [00:34] <Hixie> to get rid of the empty nodes
  88. # [00:34] <sicking> agreed
  89. # [00:35] <sicking> at which point i'll book the DOOM conference room so we can discuss how :)
  90. # [00:36] <sicking> Hixie, try "<!DOCTYPE html><i><font><font><font><font><div>w</div><div>f</div>" in gecko now
  91. # [00:36] <sicking> Hixie, we create loads of elements
  92. # [00:36] <sicking> Hixie, way more than HTML5 does
  93. # [00:37] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-246.mountainview.mozilla.com)
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  95. # [00:38] <Hixie> yeah, html5 doesn't move all the nodes to inside the blocks
  96. # [00:38] <Hixie> that isn't affected by the change just now afaict
  97. # [00:39] <sicking> funny thing is, if you just close one <font> after the last div, we dramatically change what we do
  98. # [00:39] <sicking> which is not what i would have guessed
  99. # [00:39] <sicking> right, html5 deals with this stuff dramatically different
  100. # [00:40] <Hixie> the biggest problem with gecko is that what it does differs based on packet boundaries
  101. # [00:41] <sicking> right
  102. # [00:41] <sicking> the lookahead is bad
  103. # [00:41] <Dashiva> "With namespaces, users pay while spec authors get off scott free for their inability to do the hard work of writing specs and forging agreement."
  104. # [00:41] <sicking> i'm not at all suggesting we do what gecko does
  105. # [00:42] <sicking> just saying that dealing with lots of unclosed <font>s might not be critically important to do
  106. # [00:42] <sicking> the packed boundry thing could be fixed in gecko, and still keep the lookahead
  107. # [00:43] <Philip`> Dashiva: But with distributed extensibility, *everyone* is a spec author
  108. # [00:43] <sicking> but we'd still produce much more bloated DOMs than the current spec
  109. # [00:44] <sicking> The only real advantage in what we do is that we can implement a real SAX API even for malformed documents
  110. # [00:45] <Hixie> sicking: yeah, the spec might be good enough at this point
  111. # [00:46] <Hixie> sicking: well, you still can't do a real SAX API for <table>s, right?
  112. # [00:46] <Hixie> or for <html> and <body> nodes
  113. # [00:47] <Hixie> ok bbiab
  114. # [00:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.181) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  115. # [00:49] <sicking> Hixie, ah, yeah, you're right
  116. # [00:53] <Lachy> Hixie, re the :enabled and :disabled issue, are you now going to make them match hidden inputs based on the changes to Selectors?
  117. # [00:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-98-207-116-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  120. # [01:44] <Hixie> Lachy: i'll make them do whatever the new selectors spec says
  121. # [01:45] <Hixie> selectors is a decade old now
  122. # [01:45] <Hixie> a decade!
  123. # [01:45] <Hixie> and that's a 32 page spec
  124. # [01:45] <Hixie> it's about as big as the rendering section in html5
  125. # [01:46] <Hixie> and people think the timeline for html5 is unrealistic?
  126. # [01:46] <Hixie> sigh
  127. # [01:46] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-47fea026b48cad31)
  128. # [01:49] <Hixie> annevk5: i actually haven't defined <marquee> yet. :-)
  129. # [01:57] <Lachy> Hixie, I think some people have finally come to realise that the HTML5 timeline is realistic, given it's current size. I think that's one of the many reasons people want to split the spec into smaller specs.
  130. # [01:58] <Lachy> (although CSS3 has been split into separate specs and how many of those have reached rec in the past 10 years?)
  131. # [01:58] <Dashiva> Wasn't CSS kind of a trainwreck already?
  132. # [01:58] <Lachy> I think Selectors and CSS Namespaces are the closest to reaching REC
  133. # [01:58] <Hixie> Lachy: those people don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter how big the spec is, it doesn't make it go any faster if it's smaller
  134. # [01:59] <Hixie> Lachy: (given the interactions between sections)
  135. # [01:59] <Lachy> indeed
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  141. # [02:59] <Hixie> jgraham: yt?
  142. # [03:10] <Dashiva> Say, did anything in particular happen that made you stop twittering, Hixie?
  143. # [03:10] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  144. # [03:11] <Hixie> i stopped twittering?
  145. # [03:11] <Dashiva> There was almost no traffic most of the fall and winter
  146. # [03:11] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  147. # [03:11] <Hixie> i twittered 15 times in the last 24 hours
  148. # [03:12] <Hixie> what more do you want from me!
  149. # [03:12] <Hixie> :-P
  150. # [03:12] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-5f7434e0d11057f2) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. # [03:12] <Dashiva> Maybe I'm looking at the wrong account then!
  152. # [03:12] <Hixie> 32 times if you count the retweets that mike puts out
  153. # [03:12] <Hixie> http://twitter.com/WHATWG
  154. # [03:13] <Dashiva> Right
  155. # [03:13] <Hixie> and http://twitter.com/HTML5
  156. # [03:13] <Hixie> the latter also includes editorial checkins
  157. # [03:13] <Dashiva> Never mind me then
  158. # [03:13] <Hixie> on my Hixie account I don't do much because, well, twitter is dumb :-P
  159. # [03:13] * Joins: doodlewarrior (n=anon-irc@adsl-76-254-59-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  160. # [03:14] <doodlewarrior> i'm just starting to peek at the canvas element
  161. # [03:14] <Hixie> it makes sense as a short message broadcast service
  162. # [03:14] <Hixie> but microblogging is just stupid imho
  163. # [03:14] <Dashiva> I guess the clickjacking comment made me think you had all the techie stuff on Hixie
  164. # [03:14] <doodlewarrior> i've heard a lot of people talk about it for charting, but i'm not sure i understand why you'd use it
  165. # [03:14] <Hixie> though i'd use it a lot if someone did the equivalent of bitlbee for twitter
  166. # [03:14] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html is an example of <canvas> use for a chart
  167. # [03:14] <doodlewarrior> wouldn't you use positioned divs
  168. # [03:14] <doodlewarrior> thanks ill look
  169. # [03:15] <Philip`> doodlewarrior: Mostly people seem to use it for charts because they're too lazy to write a server-side script that generates an image
  170. # [03:15] <Hixie> right
  171. # [03:15] <Hixie> it grabs the data using XHR and then uses JS to generate the image
  172. # [03:15] <doodlewarrior> thanks guys
  173. # [03:15] <Hixie> Dashiva: i use Hixie for replying to other people
  174. # [03:16] <Hixie> Dashiva: (and for sending SMSes to my partner, since i don't have a phone and they do)
  175. # [03:16] <doodlewarrior> it's amusing to me that theres an HTML element that is literally defined as 'width, height, id' and relies on javascript for everything else
  176. # [03:16] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: there's several of those in html5
  177. # [03:16] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: <eventsource>, <video>, <audio> also
  178. # [03:17] <doodlewarrior> the media ones have a src though
  179. # [03:17] <Hixie> <script> too :-)
  180. # [03:17] <doodlewarrior> thyre just like image
  181. # [03:17] <Hixie> true
  182. # [03:17] <Hixie> true, you can make them show controls
  183. # [03:17] <Hixie> <eventsource> is js-only though
  184. # [03:17] <Hixie> basically
  185. # [03:17] <Dashiva> I seem to recall a request for using an image to "seed" a canvas
  186. # [03:17] <doodlewarrior> i havent heard of eventsource
  187. # [03:17] <doodlewarrior> ill look into it
  188. # [03:18] <doodlewarrior> btw, that issues graph is a better canvas sample than the ones ive seen so far
  189. # [03:18] <Dashiva> But if you're going to have to use js anyway, there's little point
  190. # [03:18] <doodlewarrior> most of those have been bar charts
  191. # [03:18] <Philip`> doodlewarrior: Have you seen http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ ?
  192. # [03:18] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: it's not a canvas sample, i actually use it to track feedback :-)
  193. # [03:18] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: it just happens to use canvas :-)
  194. # [03:19] <Philip`> doodlewarrior: (Examples at http://media.liquidx.net/js/plotkit-tests/sweet.html etc)
  195. # [03:20] <doodlewarrior> i had been looking at flotr, which is based on plotkit
  196. # [03:21] <doodlewarrior> maybe for pie or line graphs
  197. # [03:21] <doodlewarrior> but for bar charts, which is what a lot of analytics turns into, CSS seems to be a better way to go
  198. # [03:22] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.110.60)
  199. # [03:22] <Hixie> well don't forget that CSS shouldn't be used for content
  200. # [03:22] <Hixie> your page shouldn't change meaning if you turn off the CSS
  201. # [03:22] <Philip`> That seems a pretty pointless argument in practice
  202. # [03:22] <Hixie> (similarly, if you use <canvas>, you should also expose the content inside the element for users that don't see images)
  203. # [03:22] <Philip`> If you're in an environment where you can't see CSS, you almost certainly won't be able to see canvas either
  204. # [03:23] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-98-207-116-210.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  205. # [03:23] <doodlewarrior> Philip`s right
  206. # [03:23] <Hixie> the actual correct way of doing bar charts in HTML5 is <meter>
  207. # [03:23] <Hixie> but that's not supported anywhere yet
  208. # [03:23] <doodlewarrior> in that case, it should all be does as images
  209. # [03:23] <doodlewarrior> because both CSS and JS are not *guaranteed*
  210. # [03:23] <doodlewarrior> although in practice theyre pretty ubiq
  211. # [03:23] <Philip`> Images aren't guaranteed either
  212. # [03:24] <Hixie> JS is more guaranteed than CSS or images
  213. # [03:24] <Hixie> (JS is not optional, unlike CSS or images)
  214. # [03:24] <Philip`> I think you should use a Java applet
  215. # [03:24] <doodlewarrior> im a flash guy. id do that, but mobiles dont support it
  216. # [03:24] <doodlewarrior> and id choose flash over java any day of the week
  217. # [03:25] <Philip`> Write an applet that displays a bar, and then include it lots of times with <applet width="..."> for each bar
  218. # [03:25] <doodlewarrior> the only browser ive seen where JS is not optional is chrome
  219. # [03:25] <doodlewarrior> hahahaha
  220. # [03:25] <doodlewarrior> nice
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  223. # [03:26] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: by "optional" i mean "the specs say that you can turn that off without changing the meaning of the page"
  224. # [03:26] <Hixie> turning script off will change the meaning of the page
  225. # [03:27] <doodlewarrior> you can turn off images without changing the meaning?
  226. # [03:27] <doodlewarrior> deviantart is boned
  227. # [03:27] <doodlewarrior> flickr, facebook, et al
  228. # [03:27] <doodlewarrior> youtube
  229. # [03:27] <doodlewarrior> :-p
  230. # [03:27] <Philip`> That depends on the meaning of "meaning"
  231. # [03:28] <Hixie> if those sites don't include the equivalent of the image in the alt="" attribute, they're non-conforming :-)
  232. # [03:28] <doodlewarrior> there are definitely things that break without javascript
  233. # [03:28] <doodlewarrior> the app that has me thinking of all this is one of them
  234. # [03:29] <doodlewarrior> but i would still argue that images are more crucial than javascript
  235. # [03:29] <Philip`> Hixie: Non-conforming HTML pages? That would be unthinkable :-(
  236. # [03:29] <Hixie> hah
  237. # [03:29] <doodlewarrior> (and probably more likely to be supported)
  238. # [03:29] <Hixie> doodlewarrior: a blind user will have JS support but the images won't do him any good
  239. # [03:30] <doodlewarrior> i didnt know text-based clients supported javascript
  240. # [03:31] <Philip`> doodlewarrior: They tend to use a proper graphical browser plus a screenreader, rather than a text browser, apparently
  241. # [03:32] <doodlewarrior> my mac would do that when i was a kid
  242. # [03:32] <doodlewarrior> mouse over something and it would tell you what it is
  243. # [03:33] <Philip`> Aiming the mouse at objects is kind of hard when you can't see the cursor or the objects
  244. # [03:35] <doodlewarrior> i would think so
  245. # [03:36] <doodlewarrior> i imagine it would be easier to surf with firefox + reader than lynx
  246. # [03:36] <doodlewarrior> if for no other reason than all the sites that sniff by browser
  247. # [03:37] <doodlewarrior> Hixie: this is what i'll end up modeling
  248. # [03:37] <doodlewarrior> http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/wp-content/img200805/stack_bar_graded.png
  249. # [03:37] <doodlewarrior> i'm not sure if meter would be right for that
  250. # [03:37] <Hixie> no, <meter> wouldn't really work for a stacked bar
  251. # [03:38] <Hixie> <meter> is just for a single-value gauge
  252. # [03:38] <doodlewarrior> YEAH
  253. # [03:38] <doodlewarrior> bad caps
  254. # [03:39] <doodlewarrior> ill probably end up using HTML + CSS
  255. # [03:40] <doodlewarrior> it's easier to template server-side
  256. # [03:40] <doodlewarrior> and you don't need to worry about rendering the JS
  257. # [03:40] <Philip`> Text in <canvas> is not well supported in current browsers, so it'd probably be easier to just use HTML/CSS
  258. # [03:41] <doodlewarrior> thanks guys
  259. # [03:41] * Dashiva remembers making bitmap fonts for canvas text
  260. # [03:41] <Dashiva> Bad times
  261. # [03:42] <doodlewarrior> i must admit, im not much for IRC
  262. # [03:42] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.110.60)
  263. # [03:42] <doodlewarrior> what's the syntax to do a third person message
  264. # [03:42] <Philip`> /me ...
  265. # [03:43] * doodlewarrior is testing this
  266. # [03:43] * doodlewarrior is wondering how Philip` escaped the /me
  267. # [03:43] <doodlewarrior> /me like this?
  268. # [03:44] <Dashiva> Many ways, depending on the client
  269. # [03:44] <doodlewarrior> anyway, ill stop wasting all your time now
  270. # [03:44] <Dashiva> e.g. mIRC supports ctrl-enter to avoid commands
  271. # [03:44] <doodlewarrior> im in opera
  272. # [03:45] <Philip`> / /me ... escapes it in irssi
  273. # [03:45] <doodlewarrior> i dont really want to install a chat client
  274. # [03:45] <doodlewarrior> although for all practical purposes all opera is to me IS a chat client
  275. # [03:45] <doodlewarrior> although it was my main browser before safari was cross-platform
  276. # [03:45] <doodlewarrior> although i say although a lot
  277. # [03:45] <Dashiva> When all else fails, /msg #channelname /me text should work
  278. # [03:46] <doodlewarrior> gtk
  279. # [03:49] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  280. # [03:56] <Hixie> wow have you guys seen this? http://a.deveria.com/caniuse/
  281. # [03:58] <Dashiva> It's a bit depressing to see features blocking on browser versions that aren't even the next release...
  282. # [03:59] <Hixie> you can uncheck the "Past" row
  283. # [03:59] <Hixie> :-)
  284. # [03:59] <Hixie> bbiab
  285. # [04:01] <deltab> /say usually works too
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  288. # [04:09] * Lachy is unsure whether he should be happy or sad that <form autocomplete> has now been added to the spec as a result of my data, despite the fact that I think it should never be used by anyone.
  289. # [04:10] <Dashiva> Honor and valor
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  291. # [04:11] <Dashiva> It would probably have been added eventually, in any case.
  292. # [04:30] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-faf3a9e2a43540f3)
  293. # [04:36] <roc> Hixie: that's cool
  294. # [04:36] <roc> someone should tell them that multiple backgrounds is about to land for Firefox
  295. # [04:36] <roc> 3.2 though
  296. # [04:39] <roc> I sort of hate how people assume that Webkit CSS extensions are the future
  297. # [04:39] <roc> what about MY CSS extensions
  298. # [04:40] <roc> hmm, IE8 doesn't support HTML data URLs? FAIL
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  302. # [04:42] <roc> Ah, I just want to uncheck "Unofficial" and then I'm happy
  303. # [04:43] <Dashiva> I wouldn't mind a "hide stuff that isn't ready" checkbox, just to see what little is actually usable
  304. # [04:46] <olliej> roc: really?
  305. # [04:46] <roc> which part?
  306. # [04:46] <olliej> roc: ie8 w/no data uri support
  307. # [04:46] <roc> that page says it supports data URIs for image and stylesheet loads, but not HTML loads
  308. # [04:46] <roc> or something like that
  309. # [04:47] <olliej> roc: url?
  310. # [04:47] <roc> of course IE also has a ridiculously low URI length limit which cripples data URIs anyway
  311. # [04:47] <olliej> true
  312. # [04:47] <roc> it does give the impression they might have done the minimum needed to pass Acid2
  313. # [04:47] <olliej> roc: it's just a thousand or so character or something iirc
  314. # [04:48] <roc> yeah
  315. # [04:48] <roc> olliej: http://a.deveria.com/caniuse/
  316. # [04:48] <roc> (via Hixie in this channel)
  317. # [04:48] <olliej> roc: at least it's better than the minimum needed to pass some of the acid3 svg tests -- you just needed the element constructors to exist
  318. # [04:48] <roc> yeah well
  319. # [04:48] <olliej> roc: they didn't actually need to work
  320. # [04:48] <olliej> i was like wtf?
  321. # [04:49] <roc> let's not discuss the deficiencies of Acid3 :-)
  322. # [04:49] <olliej> roc: wow, i love the idea that Chrome 0.3 is the old chrome, but safari 2 is the old safari
  323. # [04:49] <roc> yeah
  324. # [04:49] <olliej> ignoring safari 3.0, and 3.1
  325. # [04:50] <roc> I also love the idea that IE9 and Firefox 3.2 will be contemporaneous
  326. # [04:51] <olliej> heh
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  328. # [04:52] <olliej> roc: what makes the chrome 0.3 vs. Safari2 comparison especially hilarious is that chrome's initial release was based on Safari 3.1
  329. # [04:52] <olliej> wee!
  330. # [04:52] <roc> yeah I know
  331. # [04:53] <roc> it's iniquitous
  332. # [04:54] <olliej> oh well
  333. # [04:54] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  334. # [04:54] <olliej> shit happens
  335. # [04:54] <olliej> hihi eric_carlson
  336. # [04:54] <olliej> or eric_carlson_ as the case may be
  337. # [04:54] <eric_carlson_> hey olliej
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  350. # [05:48] <zcorpan> morning
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  359. # [06:48] <zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-February/018492.html - what should dom core say?
  360. # [06:50] <zcorpan> right now i have
  361. # [06:50] <zcorpan> A DOMTimeStamp represents a number of milliseconds.
  362. # [06:50] <zcorpan> typedef unsigned long long DOMTimeStamp;
  363. # [06:51] <heycam> zcorpan, i think that is ok
  364. # [06:51] <zcorpan> heycam: ok, thanks
  365. # [06:52] <heycam> the difference in precision between unsigned long longs (which range from 0..2**64-1) and ES Numbers (which can represent integers up to 2**53 - 1) isn't important, iirc.
  366. # [06:52] <heycam> at least for practical uses of time stamps
  367. # [06:52] <zcorpan> hmm maybe the definition should say "...since Unix epoch"
  368. # [06:53] <heycam> yeah. i think dom core says something like not specifying a particular epoch, or that time stamps might always be 0 or something.
  369. # [06:53] <heycam> can't remember exactly
  370. # [06:54] <zcorpan> "The DOMTimeStamp type is used to store an absolute or relative time."
  371. # [06:54] <zcorpan> when is it used for a relative time?
  372. # [06:54] <heycam> don't know of any place in the dom off the top of my head
  373. # [06:55] <zcorpan> dom3 core says "For ECMAScript, DOMTimeStamp is bound to the Date type because the range of the integer type is too small."
  374. # [06:55] * zcorpan would like to refer to webidl for ecmascript bindings of dom core :)
  375. # [06:56] <heycam> please feel free :)
  376. # [06:57] <zcorpan> maybe i should put a note in there saying that it's not a Date in ecmascript
  377. # [06:57] <heycam> Dates in ES, iirc, use a Number (i.e. a double) internally
  378. # [06:57] <heycam> so i think the reasoning is bogus
  379. # [06:58] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-186.dynamic.amis.net)
  380. # [06:59] <zcorpan> oh <time> in html5 has relative domtimestamps
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  386. # [07:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: couldn't html5lib prefix mathml elements with an "M" and svg elements with an "S" in the no-namespace mode, or something?
  387. # [07:18] <Hixie> sure
  388. # [07:19] <Hixie> does it?
  389. # [07:24] <heycam> hmm "layed out" or "laid out"?
  390. # [07:24] <heycam> or "layoutted"? :)
  391. # [07:24] <Hixie> laid
  392. # [07:24] <heycam> surprisingly, google searches for both those terms bring up appropriately the same number of hits
  393. # [07:24] <heycam> ok
  394. # [07:25] <Hixie> except all the hits for "layed" are "is it laid or layed"
  395. # [07:25] <heycam> heh
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  401. # [07:53] <zcorpan> Philip`: in XOM, try two attributes with the same namespace and local name but different prefix
  402. # [07:53] <zcorpan> or maybe XOM doesn't let you manage prefixes?
  403. # [08:01] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.32)
  404. # [08:04] <hsivonen> sicking: pong
  405. # [08:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: is <?foo ??> well-formed? If it inserts a space unnecessarily, it is probably a bug in the code that tries to avoid the ?> substring
  406. # [08:06] <Hixie> sicking: so do you think mozilla wants the spellcheck="" attribute in html5?
  407. # [08:06] <Hixie> anyone from opera have any opinions on that, also?
  408. # [08:06] <Hixie> ap: how about webkit, do you know if anyone outside google wants spellcheck="" in html5?
  409. # [08:07] <Hixie> i figure i'll add it, more or less as specced here http://damowmow.com/playground/spellcheck.txt
  410. # [08:07] <Hixie> since there seems to be vague positive notions about it
  411. # [08:08] <Hixie> (and it's used by major sites and firefox and chrome both have some level of support)
  412. # [08:08] <Hixie> (though that's all mostly from google)
  413. # [08:09] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  414. # [08:09] <ap> Hixie: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 is not from Google afaict
  415. # [08:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <?foo ??> seems to be well-formed
  416. # [08:10] <Hixie> ap: woo, non-google interest
  417. # [08:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but <?xml-stylesheet ??> isn't xml+xml-stylesheet-well-formed (if there is such a concept)
  418. # [08:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok.
  419. # [08:16] <zcorpan> speaking of xml-stylesheet, we had a telecon yesterday
  420. # [08:17] <zcorpan> there was push-back in general but they seemed to agree that error handling needed to be defined
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  422. # [08:21] <zcorpan> surprising to me was that the xml core wg were apparently unfamiliar with the term "yellow screen of death"
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  424. # [08:25] <hsivonen> whoa. pretty removed from Web use cases, eh?
  425. # [08:26] <zcorpan> i guess
  426. # [08:29] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  427. # [08:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think I've now fixed the serializer bugs you found (in svn only so far)
  428. # [08:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  430. # [08:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: why is <x xmlns="x:&" /> not well-formed?
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  434. # [09:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: unescaped ampersand is not valid in AttValue
  435. # [09:00] <hsivonen> ooh
  436. # [09:01] <hsivonen> so obvious now...
  437. # [09:01] <hsivonen> the thread with Adam Barth & others on www-talk is interesting
  438. # [09:24] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-15-128.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  439. # [09:38] <Hixie> site-meta scares me
  440. # [09:38] <Hixie> i don't really understand the problem it's trying to solve
  441. # [09:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: what kind of parser-level quirks are expected? Is the fragment parsing algorithm meant to be quirk-sensitive?
  442. # [09:44] <hsivonen> <p><table>, I expect
  443. # [09:44] <hsivonen> (and that's Acid2's fault)
  444. # [09:44] <Hixie> hm?
  445. # [09:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think no parser-level quirks are expected (we can maybe get away with doing <p><table> the same in quirks mode)
  446. # [09:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: are more quirks expected than those that have XXX quirks comments? and is the fragment parsing algorithm supposed to honor the quirkiness of the document of the context node?
  447. # [09:46] <Hixie> no idea
  448. # [09:47] <hsivonen> ok. I'll file a bug
  449. # [09:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does Opera have any parser-level quirks left?
  450. # [09:53] <hsivonen> fwiw, source code suggests that Gecko inherits quirkiness on innerHTML
  451. # [09:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes (e.g. <p><table>)
  452. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok, so there's no shipping precedent to ironing out the differences
  453. # [09:56] <zcorpan> hey i thought webkit did the <p><table> the same in quirks mode
  454. # [09:56] <hsivonen> oh
  455. # [09:57] <zcorpan> wonder why they changed it
  456. # [10:04] <hsivonen> what was the magic click that reveals sections linking to a heading in the WHATWG HTML5 spec?
  457. # [10:04] <annevk5> Hixie, Opera wants spellcheck="" btw
  458. # [10:04] <annevk5> Hixie, I thought I mentioned that somewhere on the list
  459. # [10:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why innerHTML & friends are on HTMLElement instead of Element?
  460. # [10:05] <hsivonen> my recollection is that in WebKit and Opera innerHTML works more generally
  461. # [10:05] <Hixie> annevk5: cool
  462. # [10:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: because i don't define Element :-)
  463. # [10:06] * zcorpan finds https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9280
  464. # [10:06] <annevk5> Hixie, but you could define ElementHTML
  465. # [10:06] <annevk5> Hixie, for instance
  466. # [10:06] <Hixie> i could
  467. # [10:08] <hsivonen> it seems silly that the functionality is not available on SVG nodes (in specs & in Gecko)
  468. # [10:12] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  469. # [10:19] <Hixie> innerHTML is a terrible API
  470. # [10:19] <Hixie> it's the equivalent of eval
  471. # [10:19] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm here now
  472. # [10:19] <annevk5> Hixie, but it does the job
  473. # [10:19] <Hixie> so does eval
  474. # [10:20] <hsivonen> eval is lispish, so it has to be brilliant
  475. # [10:22] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  476. # [10:23] <annevk5> given that non-HTML elements are marginal in use anyway and there's no other API available I do not really see the harm in making it consistently available
  477. # [10:25] <Hixie> the harm is in making it available at all
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  479. # [10:27] <Hixie> does anyone know if there's any way to force another computer on the network to flush its dns cache?
  480. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: when the cat is totally out of the bag if you use innerHTML on a div wrapping svg, what's the harm of allowing it directly on the svg stuff?
  481. # [10:30] <Hixie> innerHTML is bad. when you have something that is bad, you don't make it available _more_
  482. # [10:30] <zcorpan> badness is just an opinion :)
  483. # [10:30] <annevk5> Hixie, you made it available to XML
  484. # [10:31] <annevk5> Hixie, I'm not really convinced
  485. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: innerHTML is useful for debugging :-)
  486. # [10:31] <Hixie> annevk5: putting it on XML is necessary to allow easier migration to XML
  487. # [10:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: a readonly attribute innerHTML would be fine
  488. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: wouldn't easy migration require running the HTML parser on setting?
  489. # [10:32] <Hixie> presumably one would fix all the syntax at the same time
  490. # [10:32] <Hixie> i can't imagine what kind of a mess one would have that would make it easier to only upgrade some of the syntax
  491. # [10:32] <annevk5> Hixie, it seems that if we want HTML+MathML+SVG to look lik a single platform innerHTML should be everywhere
  492. # [10:33] <zcorpan> opera uses the html parser on setting and we have bugs about it, iirc
  493. # [10:33] <annevk5> Hixie, also, if innerHTML is bad in the first place, why would you ever want to allow it to migrate to XML
  494. # [10:33] <Hixie> innerHTML is fundamentally bad in the same way eval is bad -- it doesn't get you any compile-time syntax checking, and it encourages poor escaping hygene
  495. # [10:33] <annevk5> Hixie, especially since you increase implementation complexity as it does not do the same thing there!
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  497. # [10:33] <hsivonen> I agree on escaping hygiene, but compile-time checking is overrated
  498. # [10:34] <zcorpan> annevk5: didn't opera and gecko predate html5 on this matter, though?
  499. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Python has collection literals, Java doesn't. Many Java devs use XML as complex literals...
  500. # [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: for this kind of thing, i think it's underrated
  501. # [10:34] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  502. # [10:34] <hsivonen> people like having literals
  503. # [10:35] <Hixie> anyway
  504. # [10:35] <Hixie> if you want innerHTML on SVG, get zcorpan to do it in Web DOM Core
  505. # [10:35] <Hixie> I have no interest in sticking my neck out on that front
  506. # [10:35] <Hixie> it's one thing to piss off the svg wg, but pissing them off when i disagree that it's a good idea is quite another :-P
  507. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: what's the difference from saying that all documents must implement HTMLDocument?
  508. # [10:36] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  509. # [10:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: HTMLDocument doesn't encourage poor escaping hygene and suffer from lack of compile-time syntax checking of complex strings?
  510. # [10:36] <annevk5> zcorpan, Opera's implementation actually didn't increase complexity, but yeah, then again, we could remove it
  511. # [10:37] <annevk5> Hixie, HTMLDocument has innerHTML
  512. # [10:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: i meant having an ElementHTML interface that includes useful stuff that's only available on html elements
  513. # [10:38] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  514. # [10:38] <zcorpan> i'd be fine with putting stuff in dom core if that's appropriate
  515. # [10:38] <Hixie> annevk5: innerHTML on a Document is a whole different issue -- it's a replacement for DOM3 Load and Save, to convert a self-contained, typically server-provided, raw document string, into a Document
  516. # [10:38] <Hixie> zcorpan: i don't follow. I thought the problem was that people wanted things on nodes _other_ than HTML elements.
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  519. # [10:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: yes -- then you say that all Elements must also implement ElementHTML
  520. # [10:39] <Hixie> zcorpan: ...but I don't _want_ non-HTML elements to support these things
  521. # [10:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: what about getElementsByClassName?
  522. # [10:40] <Hixie> what about it?
  523. # [10:41] <annevk5> Hixie, poor hugene and no compile-time syntax checking of complex strings though
  524. # [10:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's on HTMLElement but would be similarly useful on svg elements
  525. # [10:41] <annevk5> classList too
  526. # [10:41] <Hixie> annevk5: you wouldn't do (in the use case for Document.innerHTML) any string merging, so there's no escape hygene issue. And compile-time checking makes no sense for something you don't have access to until runtime.
  527. # [10:42] <Hixie> zcorpan: if there are things we should hoist to Web DOM Core Element, I'm fine with that too.
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  530. # [10:44] * annevk5 finds another interesting i18n example
  531. # [10:45] <annevk5> there's an armenian list style in CSS but apparently such a thing is never used; they use arabic or roman numbers for lists in practice
  532. # [10:45] <Hixie> there's like 93 different list styles in css3 lists
  533. # [10:46] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  534. # [10:46] <Hixie> many of them are only of historic interest
  535. # [10:46] <Hixie> they're mostly for use with counters rather than lists
  536. # [10:46] <annevk5> why add bunch of codes to browsers for historic interest?
  537. # [10:46] <annevk5> s/codes/code/
  538. # [10:47] <Hixie> it's very little code in most cases, just a table typically
  539. # [10:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: When adding those two attributes, the second one overrides the first one, so you only get one attribute in the output
  540. # [10:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: (XOM does let you manage prefixes, but it does comparisons based on URI+localname and the prefixes are more like hints for serialisation)
  541. # [10:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: <?foo ??> is well-formed as far as I'm aware; I guess the code that adds the space was copied-and-pasted from the code that avoids <!-- --->
  542. # [10:49] <annevk5> Hixie, same question s/code/tables/
  543. # [10:49] <Hixie> tables are cheap
  544. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed, it looked copied and pasted, so I zapped it
  545. # [10:50] <annevk5> that's hardly a justification :)
  546. # [10:51] <annevk5> especically since it's a bit more than tables for some and testing all that stuff is quite a bit of effort
  547. # [10:51] <Hixie> list styles are pretty easy to test
  548. # [10:51] <Hixie> you just implement the algorithm and output bazillions of automated tests automatically
  549. # [10:51] <jgraham> Unless you implement the algorithm wrong
  550. # [10:52] <jgraham> In which case you output bazillions of misleading tests automatically :)
  551. # [10:52] <Hixie> well then you catch the bug when the "real" implementor tries it
  552. # [10:52] <Hixie> writing wrong tests is always a risk
  553. # [10:52] <Hixie> for lists it's far easier to get them right than, say, margin collapsing
  554. # [10:53] <Hixie> anyway, list styles, even those with only small markets, can be useful
  555. # [10:53] <Hixie> why would we not want to be comprehensive?
  556. # [10:53] <Hixie> since they're cheap and easy to test, it seems like a rare case where we can afford to be
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  559. # [10:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't think there's a magic click, you just use the single-page spec and then click the term's definition
  560. # [10:55] <hsivonen> aah. single-page!
  561. # [11:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Speaking of broken tests, you do realise that for every change you make to the AAA, a tiny kitten dies, right?
  562. # [11:01] <Hixie> blame hsivonen
  563. # [11:02] <Hixie> (and sicking)
  564. # [11:02] <jgraham> That doesn't help the poor little kitten now does it? :)
  565. # [11:02] <jgraham> Anyway, I can't really blame hsivonen because I'm counting on him to fix the html5lib test suite before I get around to implementing the change
  566. # [11:03] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  572. # [11:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: shout when you're around.
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  585. # [11:52] <Hixie> i love that the TR/html5 doc is already out of date before even getting published
  586. # [11:54] <annevk5> you should love the point where that stops being the case :)
  587. # [11:57] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@71-218-59-55.hlrn.qwest.net)
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  590. # [11:59] <Hixie> annevk5: i don't expect it'll be the case before october :-)
  591. # [12:01] * Philip` wonders how Rob Burns can possibly claim that the XML spec says "&#xd800;&#xdc00;" is well-formed
  592. # [12:01] <Philip`> (on www-tag)
  593. # [12:02] <annevk5> Rob Burns also claims that by virtue of referencing Unicode XML requires canonical character comparison rather than codepoint comparison
  594. # [12:02] <annevk5> It's really quite interesting :)
  595. # [12:04] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe... it says character reference*s* must match Char, so after expanding the two references and serializing the result as utf-16 and parsing it again it would match Char?
  596. # [12:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: You can't serialise U+D800 to UTF-16
  597. # [12:05] <zcorpan> bummer :(
  598. # [12:05] <Philip`> So I guess you have to expand the two references, serialise as UCS-2, then reinterpret it as UTF-16 when parsing, and then it would match Char
  599. # [12:05] <Philip`> though that would break whenever you use >= U+10000 in your document
  600. # [12:07] <zcorpan> you'd only do it for character references that expand to the surrogate range?
  601. # [12:07] * arve__ is now known as virtuelv
  602. # [12:07] <Philip`> "If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."
  603. # [12:08] <Philip`> so he can't claim that &#xd800;&#xdc00; should be parsed into a single codepoint
  604. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: sure he *can* and just did :-(
  605. # [12:08] <heycam> right, and there's no such character as U+D800
  606. # [12:09] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I didn't see him claim that (yet)
  607. # [12:09] <yecril71> krijnhoetmer is down again
  608. # [12:09] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@71-218-59-55.hlrn.qwest.net) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  609. # [12:09] <Philip`> yecril71: Works for me
  610. # [12:09] * heycam always pronounces "krijnhoetmer" as "chronometer" in his mind
  611. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. perhaps he didn't claim exactly that, but he claims a lot of things
  612. # [12:10] <annevk5> yecril71, if krijnh is actually in the channel it's unlikely to be down
  613. # [12:10] <yecril71> Take it back, I expected Goto to refresh in IE.
  614. # [12:11] * yecril71 takes it back
  615. # [12:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: If he did claim that then at least he'd be more internally consistent, even if it made him more wrong :-)
  616. # [12:11] * hsivonen thinks the issue timeless pointed out is a bug in cell phone carriers in Canada
  617. # [12:12] <yecril71> If the userís language does not match the siteís, how on earth can the user actually use the site?
  618. # [12:13] <annevk5> yecril71, because the user is e.g. Dutch but can read English?
  619. # [12:13] <yecril71> For the life of me, I cannot figure out anything on Chinese sites.
  620. # [12:13] <jgraham> yecril71: Google translate or e.g. having some but not good comprehension of the language
  621. # [12:13] * jgraham has to use Swedish sites occasionally
  622. # [12:13] <yecril71> Does Google translate allow you to submit forms?
  623. # [12:13] * annevk5 can quite easily use oslokino.no
  624. # [12:14] <annevk5> without speaking Norwegian
  625. # [12:14] <hsivonen> yecril71: I tend to use Google Translate in another tab when I need to submit forms e.g. in German
  626. # [12:14] <annevk5> s/spreaking/knowing/
  627. # [12:14] <zcorpan> yecril71: gmail.com might be in english but you want to write a mail in a different language
  628. # [12:15] <yecril71> Annevk5! How do you use oslokino.no?
  629. # [12:17] <yecril71> It seems like a film review site, the reviews are in Norwegian.
  630. # [12:17] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  631. # [12:18] <annevk5> among other things it lists which movies run in theaters in Oslo, which is useful when I'm there
  632. # [12:18] <hsivonen> yecril71: it seems the main use case for the site is buying tickets
  633. # [12:18] <yecril71> Even if I want to write a mail in a different language, my language and the GMailís language are still the same.
  634. # [12:19] <yecril71> It is the recipientís language that is different.
  635. # [12:19] <yecril71> Do you also translate your feedback into German with Google first?
  636. # [12:20] <yecril71> In my ideal world, everyone would use the language she knows best,
  637. # [12:21] <yecril71> and the recipientís software would have the task to translate it.
  638. # [12:21] <hsivonen> yecril71: does "use" mean write, read, or both?
  639. # [12:21] <yecril71> In this case, write, mostly.
  640. # [12:22] <yecril71> Passages for reading do not need spell checking.
  641. # [12:22] <yecril71> But you have to be able to read in order to know what to write (and where).
  642. # [12:23] <hsivonen> I wouldn't hold my breath with that vision. Even with human translators, after some threshold of reading proficiency in a foreign language, people are better off reading original text instead of translations
  643. # [12:23] <yecril71> The translation would only be a prothesis, the original text being available as well.
  644. # [12:25] <yecril71> I am unhappy about breaking the link between @lang and spell checking.
  645. # [12:25] * hsivonen wonders how the IETF mechanism of getting security review works compared to getting Adam Barth to read a draft
  646. # [12:26] <yecril71> Hopefully, the browsers can still do it, regardless that Hixie decided to ignore it.
  647. # [12:27] <Hixie> did you read what the spec says on the subject?
  648. # [12:29] <yecril71> The spec says that spellcheck is used to turn spell checking on for text input controls.
  649. # [12:29] <Hixie> i urge you to read the entire section :-)
  650. # [12:29] <krijnh> I'm down?
  651. # [12:30] <krijnh> yecril71: No, I'm not :)
  652. # [12:30] <yecril71> No, I am dumb :-(
  653. # [12:30] <yecril71> Or rather MSIE is.
  654. # [12:31] <krijnh> (heycam: it's more like "cryin' hoodmer", but who cares :)
  655. # [12:31] <yecril71> Why does MSIE want to load Microsoft HTML Viewer to display the spec?
  656. # [12:32] <annevk5> why do people use MSIE?
  657. # [12:33] <yecril71> Because their employers want them to use Microsoft Windows, I presume.
  658. # [12:33] <yecril71> Because it is the best choice for incompetent losers.
  659. # [12:34] * Philip` notes that other web browsers work on Microsoft Windows too
  660. # [12:34] * yecril71 notes that that doubles the maintenance cost
  661. # [12:35] <krijnh> Because of shitty IE-only intranet apps and sysadmins not doing their jobs
  662. # [12:36] <yecril71> OK, I disabled CSS so perhaps I shall be able to read it now
  663. # [12:40] <yecril71> Except that disabling CSS is not permanent, and I have to wait for ages until I will be able to disable it again :-(
  664. # [12:47] <yecril71> I am sorry, I am unable to find spellcheck in the contents.
  665. # [12:47] <yecril71> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/index.html#contents
  666. # [12:47] <yecril71> Find "spellcheck".
  667. # [12:49] * Joins: robburns (n=robburns@adsl-99-180-247-184.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
  668. # [12:50] <robburns> Philip` with your quote, I see how you're reading XML 1 now.
  669. # [12:50] <robburns> Philip`: "If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."
  670. # [12:51] <yecril71> The attribute values should be
  671. # [12:51] <yecril71> spellcheck="on/off", not "true/false"
  672. # [12:52] <robburns> My reading overlooked the subtle different there where it expands to the CHARACTER'S code point
  673. # [12:52] <robburns> Philip`: so I was thinking that the two character references expanded to two code points (surrogates) that when adjacent to one another signified an astral code point
  674. # [12:54] <hsivonen> robburns: did you read the BNF comment at http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-Char ?
  675. # [12:54] <robburns> Philip`: At one point all the major browsers supported that reading
  676. # [12:54] <robburns> see https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6446
  677. # [12:54] <robburns> and later https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22210
  678. # [12:54] <hsivonen> robburns: browser behavior is not normative over XML :-)
  679. # [12:54] <Philip`> robburns: As far as I'm aware surrogates only signify astral code points in UTF-16, and UTF-16 doesn't seem relevant to character references at all
  680. # [12:55] <robburns> hsivonen: Yes, I did. However as I said in that email that makes it clear that you cannot have &#x0; but not so clear that you can't have two valid surrogates adjacent to one another.
  681. # [12:55] <robburns> Both IE and Safari still support this.
  682. # [12:56] <yecril71> Why is spell checking disabled by default?
  683. # [12:56] <robburns> Philip`: yeah, but having those surrogates as assigned code points (rather than a UTF issue) certainly contributes some ambiguity. After all we don't have UTF-8 code points assigned too.
  684. # [12:57] <yecril71> Spell checking should be enabled IMHO, except for text input controls.
  685. # [12:58] <robburns> yecril71: in my opinion, spell checking shouldn't be up to authors at all
  686. # [12:58] <robburns> spellchecking is just not an authors concern
  687. # [12:58] <yecril71> (INPUT[type=TEXT], that is)
  688. # [12:58] <robburns> meaning the author of the page, not the author now using that page to input html or other content
  689. # [12:58] <yecril71> But the latest specification says it should be off by default.
  690. # [12:59] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/surrogate-charrefs.xml
  691. # [13:00] <Philip`> Gives error in Firefox 2, Opera 9.6, Safari 3.1; displays with no error in IE6
  692. # [13:00] <robburns> Philip`: you're right. I guess for XML Safari doesn't handle that. I had just tested in HTML, but I thought I had done it before in XHTML.
  693. # [13:00] <Philip`> IE8 does show an error message, but also seems to carry on parsing anyway
  694. # [13:01] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/single-surrogate-charref.xml
  695. # [13:01] <Philip`> IE6 is happy with that too
  696. # [13:01] <hsivonen> robburns: may I suggest more careful testing next time before claiming unusual things about XML conformance on the mailing lists
  697. # [13:01] * Joins: zalan_ (n=kvirc@dsl54007086.pool.t-online.hu)
  698. # [13:01] <robburns> Philip`: well I think a year or so ago, IIRC Safari, FireFox and IE were all handling those surrogates.
  699. # [13:01] <Philip`> (and IE8 does the same as the other example)
  700. # [13:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Specifically I would like anolis to support anolislib.generator.fromFile(file, **kwargs) and anolislib.generator.toString(tree, **kwargs) which I implemented but left the patch elsewhere
  701. # [13:02] <robburns> hsivonen: well with the flip-flopping on this (as it is described a the WebKit bugzilla) I don't think I should be held responsible for the most up-to-date state of this.
  702. # [13:02] * jgraham thinks about implementing it now
  703. # [13:03] <robburns> hsivonen: who knows tomorrow it might all work again in those browsers. There's some people out there who like to ensure there are as many fatal errors in XML as can be even if they aren't really in the spirit of fatal error handling of XML.
  704. # [13:03] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@217.41.236.36)
  705. # [13:03] <Philip`> robburns: Those bug reports are about HTML, which is not XML
  706. # [13:04] <hsivonen> robburns: when in doubt, you may assume that XML bugs Philip` has found in Validator.nu and I have fixed are actual XML violations
  707. # [13:04] <robburns> Philip`: "HTML/XML character set (independent of actual character encoding of a document)
  708. # [13:04] <robburns> is Unicode/ISO 10646 and NCRs represent Unicode code points. They do not
  709. # [13:04] <robburns> represent '2byte code units' of UTF-16. So, NCRs with surrogate code points
  710. # [13:04] <robburns> should not be allowed whether they are paired or not. " Says XML there.
  711. # [13:04] <robburns> hsivonen: I don't agree.
  712. # [13:05] <robburns> hsivonen: I think this is open to interpretation and I don't think treating those as fatal error is really in keeping with the reasons for fatal error handling in XML (on the other hand I think you're right that it shouldn't be serialized that way)
  713. # [13:05] <Philip`> robburns: It does literally say "XML", but it's only talking about changes to the HTML parser (hence it being the "HTML DOM" component, and referring to a bug which involved a change to the HTML parser)
  714. # [13:05] <hsivonen> robburns: I'm not suggesting taking me or Philip` as authorities. Just that checking specs carefully is a good idea before suggesting that someone else didn't grok the specs.
  715. # [13:06] * Philip` is certainly not an authority, and is often mistaken :-)
  716. # [13:06] <hsivonen> robburns: when *you* think something is open to interpretation, it usually helps to check if multiple XML parser implementors happen to agree on the interpretation (they might have it right)
  717. # [13:07] <robburns> hsivonen: I quoted the spec and gave you my interpretation of it. I can see how Philip read it differently now. However, there is room for interpretation there.
  718. # [13:07] <yecril71> Editorial: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2800&to=2801 features "asits"
  719. # [13:08] <robburns> Philip`: well I would count you here as an authority, but even authorities can get too draconian at times.
  720. # [13:08] * Quits: zalan_ (n=kvirc@dsl54007086.pool.t-online.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  721. # [13:09] <robburns> hsivonen: I have checked multiple XML parsers (at least from my recollection). However, as I said the implementations are flip flopping on this because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be.
  722. # [13:09] <Philip`> robburns: I'm not interested in being draconian, just in understanding the spec in the same way that everyone else understands it
  723. # [13:09] <robburns> hsivonen as Philip` demonstrated IE does parse surrogate pair character references.
  724. # [13:10] <Philip`> and I haven't seen any evidence of people being indecisive about how to implement it in XML (as opposed to in HTML where it's not been specified before HTML5)
  725. # [13:10] * jgraham wonders if gsnedders realises that fromFile will sometimes work if the input is actually a string
  726. # [13:10] * Joins: pesla\work (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  727. # [13:10] <Philip`> except for IE starting to flag it as an error, following what other parsers seem to do
  728. # [13:10] * Joins: zalan_ (n=kvirc@dsl54007086.pool.t-online.hu)
  729. # [13:12] <robburns> Philip`: here's another bug report https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18039
  730. # [13:12] <robburns> seems to be xml related
  731. # [13:13] <hsivonen> robburns: also doesn't support your interpretation :-)
  732. # [13:13] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  733. # [13:13] <annevk5> "because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be" really? :)
  734. # [13:14] <zcorpan> robburns: the test case has "&#119604;&#119604;&#119604;" - doesn't look like surrogate character references to me
  735. # [13:14] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  736. # [13:14] <annevk5> it's an interesting conspiracy theory
  737. # [13:14] <robburns> yeah, I see that now
  738. # [13:15] <robburns> zcorpan: ^
  739. # [13:16] * Philip` notes that his testing in IE6 was actually in Wine, and he's not sure if that would affect the results
  740. # [13:18] * jgraham tries upgrading PimpMySpec.net to a version that allos you to set options for URL-based (rather than upload-based) requests
  741. # [13:19] <robburns> Philip`: I don't think that would change anything.
  742. # [13:19] <jgraham> It is much uglier than it used to be and has approximately no QA
  743. # [13:19] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl5402683B.pool.t-online.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  744. # [13:22] <robburns> annevk5: "because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be" really? yes really!
  745. # [13:23] <Philip`> Ooh, there's even a test
  746. # [13:23] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/XML-Test-Suite/xmlconf/xmltest/not-wf/sa/145.xml?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
  747. # [13:23] <Philip`> (where the "not-wf" directory is used for not-well-formed documents)
  748. # [13:24] <hsivonen> clearly, the XML test suite folks are trying to make sure XML is more Draconian than it is intended to be!
  749. # [13:24] <annevk5> every year I file these bugs on browsers to fail on non-NFC content, but nobody implements :(
  750. # [13:26] <annevk5> robburns, kidding aside, anything in particular?
  751. # [13:27] <robburns> Philip`: that test is a single surrogate unless I'm missing someting
  752. # [13:27] <Philip`> robburns: Oh, good point
  753. # [13:27] <robburns> hsivonen: I guess we're all too quick to find urls to prove the others wrong
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  755. # [13:29] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs
  756. # [13:29] <annevk5> http://ajaxian.com/archives/frames-are-back oops
  757. # [13:31] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  758. # [13:31] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/XML-Test-Suite/xmlconf/oasis/p66fail6.xml?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
  759. # [13:31] <Philip`> ("<TEST TYPE='not-wf' SECTIONS='4.1 [66]' ID='o-p66fail6' URI='p66fail6.xml'> no references to non-characters </TEST>")
  760. # [13:34] <robburns> Philip`: I guess since that test came after IE's implementation they didn't know about that.
  761. # [13:35] <annevk5> it's in the spec...
  762. # [13:35] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  763. # [13:36] <robburns> annevk5: no it's not (at least not clearly), we've already discussed that.
  764. # [13:37] <robburns> annevk5: so then we've looking to the implementations and, at least for xml, its IE on once side and everything else on the other (until IE8).
  765. # [13:42] <Philip`> See o-p66fail6 in http://xmlconf.sourceforge.net/xml/reports/report-msxml2-val.html vs http://www.xml.com/2000/08/30/msxml/msxml3-val.html
  766. # [13:42] <robburns> and for HTML firefox flip flopped and safari joined firefox (before they flipped back) and IE
  767. # [13:42] <Philip`> It was broken in a May 2000 preview, and fixed a few months later
  768. # [13:43] <robburns> Philip`: I'm not following what you mean. Broken as in they didn't support surrogate references or they did?
  769. # [13:43] <Philip`> robburns: I don't see the relevance of HTML to the parsing of XML
  770. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk5: in the first edition, even
  771. # [13:43] <Philip`> robburns: "Broken" as in they failed the test (and did not reject the document as not-well-formed)
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  773. # [13:46] <robburns> Philip`: I"m not saying that HTML is relevant to XML, but rather it is relevant to the understanding that two numeric character references that reference valid surrogate pairs can be understood as referencing an astral character
  774. # [13:46] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  775. # [13:47] <Philip`> robburns: The only things that seem relevant to the parsing of character references in XML are the XML spec and current XML parser implementations
  776. # [13:47] <robburns> Philip`: Of course, but the way any reader reads a spec is colored by their understanding of everything they've read before (or understood before).
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  778. # [13:48] <robburns> Philip`: Unless you think that specs are written with the precision of a programming language
  779. # [13:48] <robburns> and I've yet to see one that where I would say that.
  780. # [13:51] <hsivonen> anyone got test cases for innerHTML?
  781. # [13:51] <Philip`> robburns: Ah, indeed, it's relevant in terms of providing a rough mental model that lets people understand the specs more easily; it just doesn't seem helpful to use that rough mental model when discussing precise details of the spec's requirements
  782. # [13:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yep, hold on
  783. # [13:52] <robburns> Philip`: I would also say that where you would treat the implementations as the arbiter of what the spec actually says, I would rather think about what the spirit of the spec
  784. # [13:53] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/serializing/001.htm http://simon.html5.org/test/html/serializing/002.xht http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/
  785. # [13:53] <robburns> Philip`: and in this case I would say that the IE treatment of surrogate pair references is more in keeping with the spirit of the xml spec regardless of what others have implemented or produced test cases to demonstrate
  786. # [13:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: great! thanks.
  787. # [13:54] <Philip`> robburns: I would treat the apparently unanimous interpretation of the spec by the experts who've implemented the spec and written and reviewed test cases, as being the only relevant interpretation of the spec
  788. # [13:55] <robburns> Philip`: I'd probably be with you if you didn't have to use the word "apparently" before "unanimous"
  789. # [13:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: some tests might be wrong by now though
  790. # [13:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
  791. # [13:55] <robburns> Philip`: since one implementation didn't treat it that way.
  792. # [13:56] <Philip`> robburns: It's only "apparently" because I can only judge it based on all the evidence I've seen
  793. # [13:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/innerHTML/xml/
  794. # [13:56] <zcorpan> and ../
  795. # [13:56] <Philip`> robburns: I've not seen anything to indicate that was anything other than a bug, which got quickly fixed once it was identified
  796. # [13:56] <hsivonen> robburns: what's ambiguous about: "Characters referred to using character references must match the production for Char." and "Char ::= #x9 | #xA | #xD | [#x20-#xD7FF] | [#xE000-#xFFFD] | [#x10000-#x10FFFF]"? (quotes from XML 1.0 1st ed.)
  797. # [13:57] <robburns> Philip`: which if I understand correctly had IE as doing something different than other implementations, right? So by "apparently unanimous" you meant "nearly unainimous"
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  799. # [13:58] <robburns> hsivonen: I already addressed that. If it said "A character referred to using a character reference must math the production for Char" However, it says "Characters referred to using character references must match the production for Char" and it seems reasonable to interpret two surrogate paris (one high and one low) as matching that BNR notation.
  800. # [13:59] <Philip`> robburns: I mean that (apparently) nobody argued that they interpreted the XML spec as claiming &#xd800;&#xdc00; was valid, regardless of whether they had implementation bugs
  801. # [13:59] <hsivonen> robburns: no, it is not reasonable to interpret it in any other way except restricting the expansion of each NCR individually
  802. # [13:59] <robburns> Philip`: well whoever read it while implementing the IE parser must have read it that way.
  803. # [14:00] <robburns> hsivonen: It's sounds insane when you say that
  804. # [14:00] <robburns> hsivonen: Philip`'s quote was more to the point in favor of no surrogates.
  805. # [14:01] <robburns> "If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."
  806. # [14:01] <Philip`> robburns: More likely they didn't read it carefully at all, and just wrote something that seemed close enough
  807. # [14:02] <Philip`> or based it on ancient pre-first-edition version of XML that didn't have the same restrictions
  808. # [14:02] <robburns> the word "character" there leans it away from my interpretation. But that's still a a slight lean
  809. # [14:02] <Philip`> because that's how most spec-compliance bugs seems to come into existence
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  811. # [14:02] <robburns> Philip`: Well one could always discount any and all interpretations with that argument. I could say maybe the IE developers were the only ones to read it carefully.
  812. # [14:03] <robburns> Philip`: the point is that fatal errors in the case of surrogates is unlike any of the fatal errors. It doesn't break the rest of the page the way others do.
  813. # [14:04] <Philip`> robburns: If they read the spec in accordance with its intent, why would they have changed their implementation when finding a test failed, rather than having the test be fixed and the spec clarified to match what was intended?
  814. # [14:04] * zcorpan wonders why he is reading this discussion
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  816. # [14:04] <robburns> Two well-formed numeric character references that happen to be an illegal character shouldn't break rendering of the rest of the page (the way other well-formedness errors should) That's what I'm talking about with the spirit of the spec. I agree a serializer shouldn't produce those, but that's a different situation.
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  818. # [14:05] <robburns> Philip`: I'm not sure. I didn't really follow that web page you sent. I thought you were testing recent IE and it wasn't "fixed"
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  820. # [14:06] <robburns> zcorpan: maybe it's like a train wreck :-)
  821. # [14:07] <Philip`> robburns: The two pages that gave conformance test results for some old (2000) versions of MSXML, and showed that a preview release failed and a slightly later release passed the test?
  822. # [14:07] <robburns> Philip`: Yeah, that's what I thought it said. But I also thought you said you tested IE and the surrogate pair references worked in 2009.
  823. # [14:08] <robburns> Philip`: and I couldn't reconcile those two things.
  824. # [14:08] <Philip`> That was IE6 (from 2001), running in Wine (so I've got no idea what version of MSXML it's using, or if it emulates it using some other code)
  825. # [14:09] <robburns> Philip`: OK I see. But didn't you say that IE8 was changing it?
  826. # [14:10] <Philip`> robburns: I said I tested in IE8 (on Vista) and it did report the error
  827. # [14:10] <Philip`> (Well, I didn't say the "on Vista" part)
  828. # [14:10] <robburns> but didn't wasn't fatal right?
  829. # [14:12] <robburns> Philip`: I mean "but it wasn't a fatal error, right?
  830. # [14:13] <robburns> "
  831. # [14:14] <Philip`> robburns: It's an error (and causes an error dialog box to appear), but (at least when I'm just navigating to the XML file directly in IE) it continues parsing the document and displays the rest of it in its usual DOM tree thing
  832. # [14:14] <Philip`> (&#0; has exactly the same effect)
  833. # [14:16] <robburns> Philip`: well that too is a different reading of the spec.
  834. # [14:18] <Philip`> If I access it via XMLHttpRequest, then responseXML is empty if I have &#0; or &#xd800;&#xdc00; etc
  835. # [14:19] <Philip`> so the error prevents the XML file from being used
  836. # [14:19] <Philip`> so it seems to be a fatal error in that context
  837. # [14:19] <Philip`> (It might just be an artifact of the default XML document display that makes it continue past some errors)
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  841. # [14:30] <robburns> Philip`: which is another way of saying, a different reading of the spec :-)
  842. # [14:30] <annevk5> robburns, your way of reading specs is strange
  843. # [14:31] <robburns> annevk5: I'm sure it would to you.
  844. # [14:31] <annevk5> it seems I'm not alone
  845. # [14:31] <robburns> annevk5: no sadly.
  846. # [14:32] * jgraham thinks robburns would do well as a professor of literature or simesuch
  847. # [14:32] <jgraham> *somesuch
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  853. # [14:37] <annevk5> philosophy maybe?
  854. # [14:37] <annevk5> oh, he left
  855. # [14:37] <annevk5> :/
  856. # [14:37] <jgraham> I woner if I often have that effect on people
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  859. # [14:38] <takkaria> rob is a professor of literature or somesuch, he's a PhD with interests in Marxist philosophy and history of thought
  860. # [14:39] <annevk5> ah, so I was close
  861. # [14:41] <jgraham> takkaria: I knew that bit don't know if it has roughly the same job requirements as Literature
  862. # [14:41] <takkaria> well, it's all much of a sameness
  863. # [14:42] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  864. # [14:43] <jgraham> (specifically Literature professors seem to get known for having a specific type of interpretation that they like e.g. Marxist or Feminist or whatever. Then they write about how literature fits their mode of interpretation)
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  867. # [14:45] <JohnResig> Lachy: hey
  868. # [14:45] * wilhelm would expect a more pragmatic, practice-based approach from a fellow marxist.
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  871. # [14:49] <Lachy> JohnResig, I just wanted to check with you that it's OK I incorporate your selectors api tests directly into the official test suite, just for licencing reasons. (I'm not sure what licence the test suite will use yet, but I'll try and make it MIT or something)
  872. # [14:50] <JohnResig> Lachy: I think that's ok. I'm curious though - was there really a significant number of other tests to warrant the creation of a new suite?
  873. # [14:50] <Lachy> JohnResig, I created the stuff in CVS shortly before you created your tests
  874. # [14:51] <Lachy> then I haven't touched it much since, because I was using yours
  875. # [14:51] <JohnResig> Lachy: sure - so couldn't we just switch and use the one I created as the official one?
  876. # [14:51] <Lachy> possibly, but we would have to make it work in IE8
  877. # [14:52] <JohnResig> k, one sec
  878. # [14:52] <Lachy> that means we can't use constants like DOMException.SYNTAX_ERR, or tree walkers, and other stuff
  879. # [14:52] <JohnResig> Lachy: wait - *passes* in IE8 or *runs* in IE8?
  880. # [14:53] <Lachy> it currently doesn't run at all in IE8
  881. # [14:53] <JohnResig> lemme see
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  883. # [14:54] <JohnResig> ok, let me fiddle around with it
  884. # [14:54] <Lachy> oh, and where you set the css and ecss variables, you would need to use .innerHTML rathern than .firstChild.nodeValue to get the CSS from the style elements
  885. # [14:54] <JohnResig> yeah, I just got to that line, as well :)
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  887. # [15:02] <JohnResig> Lachy: eww... removing the tree walker is going to make things dicey
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  889. # [15:02] <JohnResig> Lachy: since this was designed to work on document fragments as well
  890. # [15:02] <JohnResig> hmm
  891. # [15:02] <Lachy> yeah, that's the bit I got stuck on too
  892. # [15:02] <JohnResig> I'll fiddle with it
  893. # [15:03] <JohnResig> I've already fixed the CSS loading and the DOMException stuff
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  895. # [15:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: ping
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  899. # [15:20] <yecril71> MSIE supports objStyle.text
  900. # [15:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have a patch for anolis. Also I have updated pms.net to allow passing in options in some cases (specifically: in the case where one GETs a URL rather than POSTs a file) but I have no idea if it works right
  901. # [15:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: email it to me
  902. # [15:24] <gsnedders> (Sorry, now really isn't a good time for me.)
  903. # [15:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK
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  905. # [15:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sent
  906. # [15:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'll reply later (where later means sometime in the future :))
  907. # [15:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: No panic
  908. # [15:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's usually what "later" means...
  909. # [15:39] <jgraham> Philip`: Except on a closed-timelike-loop when it also means sometime in the past
  910. # [15:40] <Philip`> jgraham: Good point
  911. # [15:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: Go read up on emphasis by repetition.
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  915. # [16:12] <Lachy> sicking, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0249.html - any existing filter that lets through unknown elements like <handler>, would be just as likely to let through new elements like <video> and new event attributes.
  916. # [16:12] <Lachy> so, e.g. <video onloadstart="xssAttack();"> would be just as problematic
  917. # [16:14] <Philip`> Lachy: They could block any attributes starting with "on"
  918. # [16:16] <jgraham> Die, Spellchecking thread, die
  919. # [16:16] <Lachy> Philip`, it's possible that they could use a proper whitelist, which would eliminate all the problems. But that doesn't mean there aren't systems out there using black lists that let unknown stuff slip through.
  920. # [16:18] <Philip`> Lachy: There might be systems that use blacklists that block some unknown stuff (like attributes starting with "on") but not all other unknown stuff (like <handler> elements)
  921. # [16:20] * Philip` doesn't know if there really are any, but it doesn't seem too preposterous
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  924. # [16:24] <Lachy> It would be irresponsible to assume that there aren't any such vulnerable systems. It's safer to accept their existence as a possibility
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  946. # [17:49] <JohnResig> Lachy: it's running in IE8 now: http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/
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  948. # [17:49] <JohnResig> Lachy: I'm getting 45.9% passing
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  952. # [17:53] <Lachy> JohnResig, ok. Can you mail publc-webapps and let them know the result
  953. # [17:53] <JohnResig> Lachy: sure
  954. # [17:55] <Lachy> it looks like many of those failures are due to lack of support for CSS3 selectors. But there are still a few worrying ones with the API
  955. # [17:55] <Lachy> what are the "Whitespace Trim" tests testing?
  956. # [17:56] <JohnResig> Lachy: I add extra whitespace characters around the selector (spaces, tabs, etc.) all of which should be trimmed
  957. # [17:56] <JohnResig> (according to the spec)
  958. # [17:56] <JohnResig> I'm sure if they fixed that it would solve a lot of problems - along with the implementation of proper exceptions
  959. # [17:56] <JohnResig> that seems to be the majority
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  961. # [17:58] <Lachy> ok, that's what I though. I was sure that issue was pointed out to them long ago. Their inconsistent handling of whitespace of one fo the reasons I discovered and specced that anyway.
  962. # [17:58] <Lachy> s/of one fo/was one of/
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  966. # [18:05] <JohnResig> Lachy: email sent
  967. # [18:05] <Lachy> thanks
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  986. # [19:17] <yecril71> I feel quite comfortable writing XML, especially in an editor that supports autoclose.
  987. # [19:17] <yecril71> And reading XML is much easier then reading something purportedly more readable,
  988. # [19:18] <yecril71> like bash script or wikitext, or even C++.
  989. # [19:18] <yecril71> The languages that rely on parentheses for nesting are unreadable.
  990. # [19:19] <jcranmer> LISP?
  991. # [19:19] <jcranmer> sorry
  992. # [19:19] <jcranmer> LISP *patooie*
  993. # [19:20] <yecril71> Python tries not to, but only for statements, not for expressions.
  994. # [19:20] <yecril71> OTOH, Python is unwritable (at least for me).
  995. # [19:24] <yecril71> So XML is a jolly good fellow, in spite of the rumours that some people are trying to spread :-)
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  1002. # [19:56] <dimich> Is XmlHttpRequest specification a part of HTML5 or some other specification? I can't find it in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work ...
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  1006. # [19:57] <svl> dimich: it started out there, but is now at http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/
  1007. # [19:57] <dimich> svl: thx!
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  1021. # [21:09] <annevk5> dimich, you want http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ probably
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  1025. # [21:14] <dimich> annevk5: thanks! I see, those are the latest ones :-)
  1026. # [21:15] <annevk5> yup
  1027. # [21:34] * ojan is now known as ojanLunch
  1028. # [21:35] <tantek> re: hit-testing and transparency, since this effects event handling, is this something HTML5 says (should say or does say) something about? real world case today, the "Don't Click" viral attack that occurred on Twitter this morning (PST). exploit source here for your inspection: http://pastie.org/387315
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  1031. # [21:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Why does rowspan=0 make cells very tall, when IE just ignores rowspan=0 entirely and makes it 1 row tall?
  1032. # [21:38] <Philip`> (Presumably it can't be needed for compatibility, and so it's unnecessary complexity)
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  1034. # [21:42] <Philip`> Oh, I suppose it's there because HTML4 said that's what rowspan=0 means
  1035. # [21:43] <Philip`> Firefox already ignores it in quirks mode
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  1037. # [21:44] <Philip`> Safari 3.2 and IE6 and IE8 always ignore it (in quirks and standards)
  1038. # [21:44] <Philip`> Opera 9.6 never ignores it
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  1051. # [22:20] <Hixie> lol someone on reddit told me to look up the acronym "css"
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  1057. # [22:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: where?
  1058. # [22:32] <Hixie> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7wr4i/new_eu_rule_requires_all_web_servers_to_log_ip/c07mfrb?context=3
  1059. # [22:33] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-15-128.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  1060. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, I just found that by finding your profile by googling for hixie reddit :P
  1061. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: Also, re:top gear, I too have see things about filming shots for the races after the actual race
  1062. # [22:34] <Hixie> yeah i found a blog entry about it later
  1063. # [22:34] <Hixie> see a comment i made
  1064. # [22:36] <Philip`> Top Gear faking shots? That'd never happen :-(
  1065. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Well, they already faked a death.
  1066. # [22:36] <gsnedders> And then revealed that the dead lived.
  1067. # [22:37] <Hixie> it's not really faking shots
  1068. # [22:37] <Hixie> i mean the shots are real
  1069. # [22:37] <Hixie> and what they depict did happen
  1070. # [22:37] <Philip`> Well, faking the context of shots
  1071. # [22:38] <Hixie> that's what tv is pretty much all about :-)
  1072. # [22:38] <Philip`> I remember some people commenting on http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-471541/BBC-admit-Top-Gear-caravan-blaze-fake.html actually having faked shots (simulating big fires by putting little fires in front of the camera)
  1073. # [22:38] <gsnedders> This is why live TV is interesting.
  1074. # [22:38] <gsnedders> A challenge of how well you can do it.
  1075. # [22:38] <Philip`> (Not commenting on that article, just on the event which that article describes)
  1076. # [22:38] <annevk5> Yet another series of e-mail with someone from QA about namespaces and attributes; I've enough of this fricking RDF tax
  1077. # [22:38] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-142.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1078. # [22:39] <annevk5> Someone please take Namespaces in XML around the back and shoot it.
  1079. # [22:40] <Hixie> jesus, svg 1.2 tiny makes elements focusable based on _whether there is an event listener for DOMFocusIn_
  1080. # [22:40] <Hixie> not even on whether the event handler doesn't cancel the event or anything
  1081. # [22:42] * Philip` saw a recent remake of The Quatermass Experiment which was broadcast live, and it's probably the first (and only) live-broadcast drama show he's ever seen
  1082. # [22:43] <Philip`> (It worked pretty well, except for some occasional rubbish sound balancing and a couple of wrong lines)
  1083. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: Does "The Bill" count as drama? AFIAK they've done special live versions of that
  1084. # [22:44] <Philip`> gsnedders: It probably does, but I've not watched it since about ten years ago :-)
  1085. # [22:45] <gsnedders> I've never watched it :)
  1086. # [22:47] <Hixie> so in svg... if you hook up an event listener to catch events for a group of elements (e.g. on a <g>)
  1087. # [22:47] <Hixie> the element suddenly becomes focusable itself
  1088. # [22:47] <Hixie> good lord
  1089. # [22:47] <Hixie> that's gotta make debugging svg a pain in the ass
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  1091. # [22:48] <gsnedders> and then shepazu joins, right on cue.
  1092. # [22:49] <Hixie> heh
  1093. # [22:49] <Hixie> shepazu: any idea where in svg 1.2 tiny it says that focus is lost when the element is removed?
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  1104. # [23:23] <Hixie> aaaah!
  1105. # [23:23] <Hixie> pimpmyspec.net broke back compat!
  1106. # [23:24] * Quits: doublec_ (n=chris@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  1107. # [23:24] <annevk5> ooh, it broke the WHATWG credo?
  1108. # [23:25] <Hixie> jesus, this is going to be a pain
  1109. # [23:25] * Hixie tries to work out what options he wants based on the html source he's looking at
  1110. # [23:25] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  1111. # [23:26] <Hixie> jesus what a lot of options
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  1113. # [23:26] <Hixie> i hope there are good defaults
  1114. # [23:27] <Hixie> it never ends!
  1115. # [23:27] <Hixie> bad jgraham
  1116. # [23:27] <Hixie> bad!
  1117. # [23:27] <Hixie> :-P
  1118. # [23:28] <Hixie> well whatever options i picked were the wrong options, clearly
  1119. # [23:28] <Hixie> this is a 64000 line diff
  1120. # [23:29] <Hixie> i wonder what i need to change
  1121. # [23:29] <Hixie> let's try w3c_compat_xref_a_placement
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  1123. # [23:30] <Hixie> ok that helped, 44000 lines now
  1124. # [23:31] <Hixie> it stopped omitting tags, hmm
  1125. # [23:31] * Hixie looks
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  1127. # [23:31] <Hixie> aha, omit_optional_tags
  1128. # [23:32] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.18.151)
  1129. # [23:32] <Hixie> maybe i want lxml_html
  1130. # [23:33] <Hixie> oh yes, much faster
  1131. # [23:35] * ojanLunch is now known as ojan
  1132. # [23:36] <Hixie> no that didn't work either
  1133. # [23:36] <Hixie> wtf
  1134. # [23:36] <Hixie> man this is a pain
  1135. # [23:36] <Hixie> i wonder how to get back to what it was like before
  1136. # [23:37] <Philip`> Try using http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:mEF8fH15-joJ:pimpmyspec.net/
  1137. # [23:38] <Hixie> uh huh
  1138. # [23:38] <Hixie> i can't get it to act as before!
  1139. # [23:38] * Hixie cries
  1140. # [23:38] <Philip`> What kinds of differences does it have?
  1141. # [23:40] <Hixie> e.g.
  1142. # [23:40] <Hixie> - </style><link href=status.css rel=stylesheet><script>
  1143. # [23:40] <Hixie> + </style>
  1144. # [23:40] <Hixie> + <link href=status.css rel=stylesheet>
  1145. # [23:40] <Hixie> + <script>
  1146. # [23:40] <Hixie> or:
  1147. # [23:40] <Hixie> - </script><body class=draft onload=init()>
  1148. # [23:40] <Hixie> + </script>
  1149. # [23:40] <Hixie> + </head>
  1150. # [23:40] <Hixie> + <body class=draft onload=init()>
  1151. # [23:41] <Hixie> and:
  1152. # [23:41] <Hixie> - <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=draft-recommendation-&mdash;-date:-01-jan-1901>Draft Recommendation &mdash; 12 February 2009</h2>
  1153. # [23:41] <Hixie> + <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=draft-recommendation-\342\200\224-date:-01-jan-1901>Draft Recommendation \342\200\224 12 February 2009</h2>
  1154. # [23:42] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@m140436d0.tmodns.net)
  1155. # [23:43] <Philip`> How odd
  1156. # [23:44] <annevk5> oops, clearly there should've been stable.pimpmyspec.net or something (or this should've been on unstable.pimpmyspec.net)
  1157. # [23:46] <Philip`> That sounds like a lot of effort compared to just waiting until jgraham comes back and fixes it
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  1163. # [23:51] <heycam> Hixie, what's the difference between http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/index and http://specs/web-apps/current-work/
  1164. # [23:51] <Hixie> the second one doesn't exist
  1165. # [23:51] <heycam> oops
  1166. # [23:51] <Hixie> or is that a trick question?
  1167. # [23:51] <Hixie> :-P
  1168. # [23:52] <heycam> insert an "www.whatwg.org/" in there
  1169. # [23:52] <Hixie> oh
  1170. # [23:52] <Hixie> the former is the svn repo of the latter
  1171. # [23:52] <Hixie> the latter is my working directory
  1172. # [23:52] <gsnedders> ergh. almost an hour between trains.
  1173. # [23:52] <heycam> ok, but i can be reasonably up to date by just "svn up"ing the former, and reading index?
  1174. # [23:52] <Hixie> i edit current-work/working-copy, then when i run my update script it gets copied over to current-work/source and regenned to current-work/index, and when i commit it goes to svn.whatwg.org and dev.w3.org
  1175. # [23:53] <Hixie> yes
  1176. # [23:53] <heycam> ok i see
  1177. # [23:53] <heycam> thanks
  1178. # [23:53] <Hixie> there are three levels; last stable checkin, what i last saved and generated, and what i literally am typing right now
  1179. # [23:53] <Hixie> svn is the first of those three
  1180. # [23:53] <Hixie> (as is w3c cvs)
  1181. # [23:53] <Hixie> if you're looking at the source of the doc, you want the /source file not /index
  1182. # [23:54] <Hixie> /index has all the cross-references, etc
  1183. # [23:54] <heycam> right. i just want an offline copy of the spec, so reading index is what i need, i think.
  1184. # [23:54] <Hixie> k
  1185. # [23:54] <Hixie> ok well since i can't work on the spec until jgraham gets back, i guess i'll go to work and get some food
  1186. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: pms.net down?
  1187. # [23:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: see above
  1188. # [23:54] * Philip` hopes jgraham hasn't been hit by a bus, because that'd be the end of the entire HTML5 endeavour
  1189. # [23:55] <gsnedders> ah
  1190. # [23:55] <Hixie> right, back in a bit
  1191. # [23:56] * gsnedders hopes he can find the right bus stop to get off at tomorrow
  1192. # [23:57] * gsnedders also he doesn't have such a bad cold
  1193. # Session Close: Fri Feb 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)