/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-23 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Feb 23 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:10] <Philip`> Hmm, seems like the idea is to design a browser that separates each origin into its own process, with security enforced by a kernel process, only allowing cross-origin access to scripts and stylesheets (based on Content-Type)
# [00:10] <Philip`> and cross-origin frames/images/plugins are handled by delegating a rectangle of the screen to another process
# [00:12] <Philip`> with the idea being that same-origin-policy enforcement in current browsers is spread throughout the code and thus vulnerable to bugs, so it's more secure to have it enforced by a relatively simple kernel process instead
# [00:14] <Philip`> and plugins are isolated into separate processes per origin too, and can only access resources through the kernel
# [00:15] <Dashiva> So you need separate plugin instances for each origin?
# [00:17] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
# [00:17] <Philip`> Yes, I think
# [00:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh dear lord that CSS is horrible…
# [00:17] <Philip`> (Also you need to modify the plugins so they communicate through the browser kernel)
# [00:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do we not really for sane authors need CSS support? :P
# [00:18] <gsnedders> (I'm of course not implying you aren't sane…)
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# [00:20] <Philip`> (Strict compatibility is not a requirement - the idea is to sacrifice some compatibility for security)
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# [00:26] <jwalden> gsnedders: and x6 for h2-h6! :-D
# [00:27] <jwalden> not to mention that h1 is really hx for the lowest x in a sectioning content element
# [00:27] * gsnedders does know this
# [00:27] * gsnedders has implemented the creating an outline algorithm
# [00:27] <jwalden> at least it compresses well!
# [00:28] <gsnedders> Probably the only implementation of the creating an outline algorithm that is actually used :)
# [00:29] <jwalden> would be cool if html5.validator.nu had that implemented, for parity with the w3 headline generator for html4/xhtml1
# [00:42] <gsnedders> (The TOC in the spec itself is made via the outline algorithm)
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# [01:40] <Hixie> jwalden: per spec h2-h6 don't actually do the magic sizing, only h1 does
# [01:46] <jwalden> huh
# [01:46] <jwalden> haven't seen that change
# [01:46] <jwalden> in the spec
# [01:46] <jwalden> maybe it's part of the rendering section
# [01:48] <Hixie> change?
# [01:49] <Hixie> h2-h6 have never done magic sizing, it's always only been <h1>
# [01:49] <jwalden> bad assumptions on my part, I guess
# [01:49] <Hixie> requiring h2-h6 to do magic sizing would be orders of magnitude more complexity, since then we'd have to do the entire outline algorithm each time
# [01:54] <jwalden> hm, my mis-memory
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# [07:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: "not appliciable" in the status boxes probably shouldn't use the same icons as "excellent support"
# [07:37] <Hixie> fixed
# [07:37] <Hixie> now it's the same as none
# [07:40] <zcorpan> anyone aware of bugs in browsers with <param>?
# [07:42] <zcorpan> hmm what's the impl status of "Offsets into the media resource" (i.e. .duration, .currentTime, .loop)?
# [07:43] <zcorpan> "incomplete" in firefox and safari?
# [07:44] <Hixie> haven't tested either recently
# [07:45] <zcorpan> what about canvas transformations?
# [07:45] <zcorpan> Philip`?
# [07:46] * zcorpan skips the canvas-related sections
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# [08:20] <jwalden> currentTime works in Gecko, modulo bugs of course
# [08:20] <jwalden> duration also seems to work
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# [08:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: "The rendering section will define this in more detail." says the spec about size=""
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# [08:34] <hsivonen> jwalden: the outline algorithm is a known feature request for v.nu
# [08:35] <jwalden> so I figured :-)
# [08:35] <hsivonen> jwalden: right now I'm focusing on the Gecko side of things, tyranny of email permitting
# [08:36] <jwalden> all good, not like I had a meaningful reason to need it :-)
# [08:39] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'll clean that up at some point
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# [09:02] <zcorpan> uh... why is there an annotation box at 5.9.4 The Location interface that seems to annotate something about <video>?
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# [09:08] <Hixie> probably the IDs changed
# [09:09] <Hixie> it happens occasionally
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# [09:14] <zcorpan> is it fixable?
# [09:14] <Hixie> only by making IDs never get reused
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# [09:19] <zcorpan> which browsers support rel=prefetch?
# [09:20] <Hixie> firefox is the only one i know of
# [09:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: What about canvas transformations?
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# [09:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: which browsers support them (for the purpose of spec status annotation)?
# [09:23] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe you could go through the canvas section and annotate appropriately? :)
# [09:25] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.transformation.transform.identity says all supported transform, and all except WebKit supported setTransform
# [09:25] <Philip`> Hmm, it's possible but I don't think I really care enough to do that :-p
# [09:30] <hsivonen> ooh. YouTube automatic caption translation is impressive
# [09:31] <hsivonen> nessy: what capture software do you use to generate the green circles indicating clicks?
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# [09:45] <hsivonen> aargh. I already have a validator bug related to xmlns:foo
# [09:49] * hsivonen gestures angrily in the general direction of Namespaces
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# [09:51] <Philip`> If you would just stop writing bugs, it wouldn't be a problem at all
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# [09:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: the first "ABC Company" example should be marked as "bad"
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# [10:13] <Hixie> zcorpan: k, thx
# [10:16] <zcorpan> are webkit's and firefox's impl of canvas text "incomplete" or "complete but buggy"?
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# [10:19] <zcorpan> ok i'm done annotating now. they were rough guesses but it's better than nothing, i hope
# [10:19] <hsivonen> argh. the isindex bug persists
# [10:19] <annevk> Hixie, one issue Ruby raised a few times was making <meta charset> conforming in XHTML if it matched the charset of the document
# [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I categorize that under violations of the DOM Consistency principle being bad
# [10:23] <Lachy> we could allow <meta charset> in XHTML if it was set to either UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-16LE or UTF-16BE; or if it matched the encoding specified by the XML declaration or higher level protocol, like the HTTP content-type header
# [10:24] * Philip` presumes it also falls under the Metadata That Looks Like It'll Do Something But Actually It'll Be Totally Ignored Thus Wasting Authors' Time principle (like @profile)
# [10:24] <annevk> @profile is different
# [10:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed. Which is why what Lachy says would only work for authors who validate often but would cause trouble for everyone else
# [10:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: It would also work for authors who don't validate at all but send everything as UTF-8 all the time and use <meta charset="utf-8"/>
# [10:25] <Philip`> which is probably quite a high proportion of the people who serve XHTML
# [10:25] <hsivonen> @profile is an epic waste of time no matter what. However, if the WG doesn't spent its time on it, the aggregate waste over time will be much larger.
# [10:26] <Lachy> at least allowing <meta charset> in XHTML would actually be addressing a real use case
# [10:26] <Lachy> unlike @profile
# [10:27] * jgraham forgets the usecase
# [10:27] <Lachy> jgraham, allowing polyglot documents to be served as either HTML or XHTML without modification and without relying on HTTP content type headers
# [10:27] <jgraham> Yes
# [10:28] <Lachy> rubys said that's what Venus does
# [10:28] <Philip`> jgraham: Software that produces bytes that someone else (who doesn't want to do any fancy reserialiation) might serve as HTML or XHTML, that will retain the correct charset even when it's e.g. saved to disk and separated from its HTTP charset
# [10:29] <jgraham> I suppose polyglot documents are a valid usecase
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# [10:30] <Philip`> They're a use case which HTML5 already goes to some lengths to support, so it'd be inconsistent to not continue supporting them
# [10:30] <Lachy> hmm, in that case, maybe we would only need to allow it to be specified as UTF-8/UTF-16*, because if you're specifying the charset with the xml decl. then you're not making a polyglot document
# [10:31] <Lachy> ... and doing anything else doesn't work too well when separated from the HTTP content-type headers
# [10:31] <Philip`> Lachy: Can't Content-Type still set the charset to anything (not just UTF), if there's no XML declaration?
# [10:31] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, but see what I just wrote
# [10:31] <zcorpan> Philip`: if you can set content-type you don't need <meta charset>
# [10:32] <Philip`> I suppose that makes sense
# [10:32] <Lachy> we may not even need to allow UTF-16, since that has the BOM anyway
# [10:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: though being able to vary the content-type without being able to also set charset is a very fringe case
# [10:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: Not really - just upload an .html vs .xhtml file, and that'll change the content-type
# [10:34] <Philip`> (or have an .html and .xhtml file on your local disk)
# [10:35] <hsivonen> ok
# [10:35] * hsivonen notes that this is can already be done by using the UTF-8 BOM
# [10:36] <Lachy> hsivonen, sometimes, including the UTF-8 BOM isn't always easy and can create problems with server side tools
# [10:36] * Philip` would never trust a text editor to not silently strip the BOM
# [10:37] <Lachy> e.g. if you begin a PHP file with the UTF-8 BOM, then it sends it out and prevents you from calling header() to set any other headers.
# [10:37] * hsivonen would trust TextWrangler
# [10:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: so you'd need to produce the BOM by other means than literal inclusion in PHP
# [10:38] <Lachy> the only safe way to get a BOM output from such a system is to do: echo "\EF\BB\BF"
# [10:38] <hsivonen> right
# [10:38] <Lachy> (if I got that syntax right)
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# [10:38] <Philip`> I guess any server-side templating system which reads a template, parses it as XML, does some substitutions, then prints it out again, would be hard to make output a BOM if you're the person who's just editing the templates
# [10:39] <zcorpan> <meta charset="utf-8"/> is easier to work with than a bom
# [10:39] <Lachy> but that requires authors to have to look up the byte sequence for the UTF-8 BOM, which is harder than just typing <meta charset="UTF-8"/>
# [10:39] <hsivonen> true. I just observed that there is an unobvious and brittle way to address the case already.
# [10:41] <Philip`> The use case could also be addressed by outputting ASCII and using &#nnn;
# [10:42] <zcorpan> Philip`: that might be safer to do anyway
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# [10:43] <zcorpan> since for rubys' purpose the content might well end up being mislabeled anyway
# [10:43] <Philip`> Inefficient for non-English-speakers, though
# [10:43] <zcorpan> efficient enough for swedish, but yeah
# [10:44] <annevk> PHP doesn't do BOM
# [10:44] <annevk> it chokes on it (at least for version 4 it did, maybe it's fixed now)
# [10:44] <hsivonen> with PHP, you are in control of headers, on the other hand
# [10:45] <annevk> if you know how that works
# [10:45] <Philip`> zcorpan: Still probably three times worse than UTF-8 for any funny Swedish characters, though
# [10:45] <hsivonen> well, yeah, pretty much everything depends on knowing what to do
# [10:45] <annevk> I expect that most people that work with PHP have limited knowledge of headers
# [10:46] <annevk> s/headers/HTTP/
# [10:46] <Philip`> Headers are things like <META>, aren't they?
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# [10:47] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes but for a normal document that's still not so much
# [10:47] <hsivonen> Swedish characters are two bytes in UTF-8 and 5 bytes as NCRs in the best case
# [10:49] * Philip` can imagine implementations in which it's a pain to convert UTF-8 to NCRs, e.g. if all your strings are UTF-8 encoded in a database and you just get bytes back and print them straight out, and don't have an easy way to do substitutions on characters instead of bytes
# [10:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: store it as NCRs in the database ;)
# [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, I just noticed that the tree builder stack already has mutable data on it beyond the element nodes
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# [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: table elements have a taint bit
# [10:52] <hsivonen> for dealing with foster parenting spaces and other text
# [10:52] * Philip` is thinking of e.g. http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/code/instiki/svn/annotate/head%3A/lib/stringsupport.rb where is_utf8? indicates that all the string-processing is done on bytes
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# [10:54] <Philip`> (Hmm, that code is going to think &#65536; is invalid utf8?)
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# [10:54] <Philip`> s/65536/65535/
# [10:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: was your foster parenting change editorial?
# [10:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm trying to work out if there was any change other than addressing the case where a script has moved the table into a DocumentFragment
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# [11:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: did you have a good way of foster parenting text that doesn't cause single-char text nodes and that doesn't keep reallocating the buffer of a pre-existing text node?
# [11:06] <hsivonen> in general, I don't want to fetch an existing text node back from the DOM and append to it
# [11:06] <hsivonen> seems like asking for trouble in crazy script scenarios
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# [11:09] <hsivonen> should I try to buffer a run of foster-parented text but not coalesce it with pre-existing non-foster-parented text?
# [11:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think the idea was that you would only have to extend a text node if it was the last node you inserted into the document, which (hopefully) means you can delay inserting it into the document and just build up the string in memory, and then when you next insert a non-text node you go back and insert that combined text node first
# [11:11] <hsivonen> OK. so I need to be able to foster-parent upon flushing :-(
# [11:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: "... if that node has a child immediately before where the character is to be inserted, and that child is a Text node, and that Text node was the last node that the parser inserted into the document, then the character must be appended to that Text node" - the "last node" bit is relevant
# [11:11] <hsivonen> ok
# [11:11] <hsivonen> I guess now is as good time as any to finally fix this
# [11:11] <Philip`> I've never actually tried implementing that, so I don't know if it's feasible in practice
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# [11:12] <Philip`> but at some point in the past it seemed to me like it'd possibly work okay (and it would avoid the quadratic performance issues)
# [11:12] <hsivonen> I don't like the idea of making flush check a flag, but I guess it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things
# [11:12] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
# [11:13] * hsivonen feels good about writing code instead of email ratholing today
# [11:13] <Philip`> You mean the flag can trigger anaphylaxis?
# [11:14] <nessy> hsivonen: I work on the mac an my capture software is iShowU
# [11:14] <nessy> it lets you set up circles like that
# [11:14] <hsivonen> nessy: thanks. (I use Snapz Pro X)
# [11:15] <nessy> but I would prefer if it didn't use circles on everything, e.g. click on scrollbar
# [11:15] <Philip`> (I guess your Java implementation has the same problem that Python/JS/etc ones would, with <table>aaaaaaaaaa having O(n^2) performance if it was appending each character to the text node's immutable string?)
# [11:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: right
# [11:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: Gecko's strings are mutable, but IIRC, the DOM tries to not have dead weight buffers
# [11:17] <Philip`> (Non-linear performance is pretty annoying, e.g. when someone accidentally hit an exponential case in a regexp in the html5lib sanitiser)
# [11:18] <Philip`> (so I suppose html5lib should be careful to avoid these quadratic things too, because people rely on the library and don't want it to suffer from DOS attacks)
# [11:18] <hsivonen> which reminds me that all my growing buffers don't have upper limits against malicious content
# [11:18] <hsivonen> like <aaaaaaa... with a script serving an unbounded number of 'a's
# [11:20] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-173-196.dsl.telstraclear.net)
# [11:20] <Philip`> The longest tag name I see is 594 characters
# [11:21] <Philip`> <metaname"keywords"content="agorà,provincie,regioni,comuni,istituzioni,italia,commercio,sport,dante,libertà,liberale,liberalismo,liberismo,parlamento,camera,senato,capitalismo,free,informazioni,editoria,associazioni,formazione,forum,sicurezza,cultura,europa,comunicazione,comuni,circuito,stampa,manifestazioni,iscrizioni,rete,società,pli,elezioni,partiti,politica,politiche,politici,croce,einaudi,marx,berlusconi,d'alema,rutelli,ulivo,polo,laici,occupaz
# [11:21] <hsivonen> Validator.nu protects itself by limiting the length of the network stream, but I need something else for Gecko
# [11:21] <Philip`> (I guess you don't want to fatally abort when pages do silly things like that, but I'm not sure that anyone would object to truncation)
# [11:22] <Philip`> hsivonen: Isn't Gecko equally vulnerable to malicious content like <script>a='a';while(1)a+=a</script> ?
# [11:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: I haven't tried
# [11:23] <Hixie> annevk: i'm sure i've acknowledged that one many times
# [11:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: and the taint bit proved to be a huge pain in the ass :-)
# [11:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: which revision?
# [11:26] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-24-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [11:26] <Hixie> re <meta charset>, lachy raises an interesting point
# [11:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: the one that changed the paragraph starting with "The foster parent element is"
# [11:27] * hsivonen tries to look up the rev
# [11:27] <Hixie> since there can't be an xml decl, and since we're assuming the site can't set the http headers to give the encoding (otherwise we wouldn't need the meta charset), we have to assume that the document is either utf-8 or utf-16.
# [11:28] <Hixie> in which case, the meta charset isn't needed since you can just use a bom
# [11:28] <Hixie> which is already allowed
# [11:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: bom vs <meta> was also discussed
# [11:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: r2732
# [11:29] <Lachy> Hixie, after having thought about it more, I would allow only <meta charset="UTF-8"/> in XHTML. Anything else should be an error
# [11:30] <Philip`> BOMs are invisible metadata
# [11:30] <hsivonen> Even after a second look, I can't figure out the non-editorial aspect of r2732 if there is one
# [11:31] <Hixie> i guess i could be convinced that we could allow it for utf-8 only, since in that case it doesn't do anything in xml anyway and all it does in text/html is make the default match xml
# [11:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: looking
# [11:33] * jgraham thinks that anything that relys on BOMs is bad
# [11:34] <virtuelv> oh, BOMs, those things you can never rely on tools outputting
# [11:34] * hsivonen thinks that UTF-16 *without* a BOM is bad
# [11:35] * Joins: annevk2 (n=opera@fnttkyo029008.tkyo.fnt.ftth2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
# [11:35] <Lachy> relying on a UTF-8 BOM is bad. Relying on UTF-16 BOM is good.
# [11:35] <Hixie> UTF-16 is general is bad...
# [11:35] <Hixie> :-)
# [11:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: It may be bad to output it without a BOM but since people generally can't see the BOM, it is hard for them to tell if they got it right
# [11:35] <Philip`> Watch out for unexploded BOMs
# [11:36] <jgraham> So BOMs rely on a "tools will save us" kind of argument
# [11:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's not an editorial change.
# [11:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: so what's the change?
# [11:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: the foster parent element is no longer defined in terms of its parent, only in terms of the stack.
# [11:37] <Lachy> jgraham, I'm not aware of any UTF-16 capable editor that doesn't always output the BOM
# [11:37] <Lachy> and it's non-trivial to strip it
# [11:37] <Lachy> but that does make UTF-16 bad for use in server side includes
# [11:38] <jgraham> I would be more convinced by a survey of billions of web pages showing that all UTF-16 ones always have BOMs :)
# [11:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: the non-fragment case was changed from having two conditions -- if parent, if no parent -- to always doing what the original "no parent" case did
# [11:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: the definition still first uses the parent of the table if there is one
# [11:38] <Hixie> it does?
# [11:39] <Hixie> how so?
# [11:39] <Hixie> is there some other text somewhere that i missed?
# [11:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: or then "the parent of foo in the stack of open element" is a really unobvious way of saying you don't actually care about the actual parent
# [11:40] <Hixie> but the spec doesn't say that unless i'm misreading it
# [11:40] <Hixie> the definition of "foster parent element" only uses the term "parent" in the term "foster parent element" itself
# [11:40] <hsivonen> now this is embarassing. I'm reading my diff window the wrong way round
# [11:40] <Hixie> heh
# [11:41] <Hixie> it happens :-)
# [11:42] <hsivonen> The simplification doesn't really simplify things much though, since you still need to check if the foster parent is the actual parent to decide if you insertBefore or appendChild
# [11:42] <Hixie> yeah but you don't have to do that in the parser thread
# [11:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: your diff view should probably have fancy colors to avoid that mistake :)
# [11:42] * virtuelv wonders just how many UTF-16 documents there actually are
# [11:42] <Hixie> you can do that off on the main thread
# [11:42] <Lachy> Hixie, would you like the meta charset discussion summarised into an email so you don't forget about it?
# [11:42] <Hixie> Lachy: or a bug, yeah.
# [11:42] * Quits: annevk (n=opera@fnttkyo029007.tkyo.fnt.ftth2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [11:42] <Lachy> ok, I'll bug it
# [11:42] <Hixie> thanks
# [11:43] <Hixie> i hope it's what sam meant
# [11:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
# [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: does that resolve that issue to your satisfaction?
# [11:43] <Hixie> if it is what sam meant, i'm still surprised that i've never actually replied to that issue
# [11:44] <Hixie> i'm sure he's raised it on the whatwg before
# [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: either way works. the old way just would have required passing one extra pointer to the main thread
# [11:44] <Philip`> Out of the five UTF-16 pages in my collection, all have a DOM
# [11:45] <Hixie> the last few times he's mentioned it has always been on the public-html list in passing as something where he didn't get his way, i just assumed that meant that the issue had been resolved
# [11:45] <Hixie> oh well
# [11:45] <Philip`> (5 out of 130K)
# [11:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: k
# [11:45] <Philip`> Uh
# [11:45] <Philip`> s/DOM/BOM/
# [11:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: s/painter/pointer/ (in the load algoritm)
# [11:45] <Hixie> Philip`: any of them have internal declarations claiming to be UTF-8? :-)
# [11:45] * Philip` assumed Sam was referring to his namespaces-in-HTML proposal
# [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: actually, they both require the same number of pointers to be passed
# [11:46] * jgraham thinks that 5 might be in the realm of samll number statistics :)
# [11:46] <Philip`> One says charset="unicode"
# [11:46] <Hixie> Philip`: i've _definitely_ sent replies back on _that_ subject
# [11:46] <ap> Lachy: did I read it correctly that no one is proposing to honor <meta charset> in XHTML?
# [11:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: thanks
# [11:46] <Philip`> http://www.hotellikarhu.com/ says utf-8
# [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: so I'm OK with either, but if you'd prefer reverting to the old way, I'd prefer knowing now
# [11:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm fine with the text now. it's simpler.
# [11:47] <annevk2> ap, yes
# [11:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. thanks
# [11:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: and still doesn't throw content away.
# [11:47] <ap> annevk2: good, thx
# [11:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: (which your original proposal would have)
# [11:47] <Hixie> ap: don't worry, that would be a layer violation, and we won't do that
# [11:48] <Hixie> we only violate layers when legacy content forces us to
# [11:48] <Philip`> Hmm, one of the five isn't utf-16, so I've got no idea why my grep thought it was
# [11:48] <Philip`> http://www.prhoffman.com/site-map.htm says no charset at all
# [11:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: validating Lachy's proposed change would violate layers, though, but the violation in the infrastructure is already needed for URL validation
# [11:49] <Philip`> http://www.archimage.net/silvia2.html asserts via HTTP that it's iso-8859-1
# [11:49] <Philip`> and via <meta> claims it's charset=unicode
# [11:50] <Philip`> http://www.rimetea-torocko.com/ claims it's charset=iso-8859-1
# [11:51] <Philip`> Oops, it's more than five, some just scrolled off my screen
# [11:51] <Lachy> hsivonen, how would it violate the layers? All you would need to check is that it's "UTF-8" (case insensitive) and that the document's encoding is UTF-8 too.
# [11:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: in proper layering, the application layer doesn't know the encoding of the XML document
# [11:52] <Lachy> ok
# [11:52] <Philip`> http://www.oregongolf.com/ - aha, there's one without a BOM
# [11:53] <Philip`> http://www.southern-jet.com/ claims to be iso-8859-1
# [11:56] <Philip`> Oh, so it's actually 30 pages that look like UTF-16
# [11:56] <Philip`> which is a bit more than 5
# [11:56] <jgraham> And at least one has no BOM
# [11:57] <jgraham> Which is like 3 +/- a lot %
# [11:58] * Philip` attempts to upload the list, before realising he's connected to the wrong Dreamhost server and so the files he uploads aren't actually accessible from the web
# [12:00] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/pages-that-look-like-utf16.txt - that's better
# [12:00] <Philip`> If anyone wants to bother looking through all those pages and working out which ones have BOMs, feel free :-)
# [12:00] <Philip`> but at least there's definitely one without
# [12:00] <Philip`> (These are the pages matching (?i)\x00[a-z]\x00[a-z]\x00, minus .jpg and .JPG and .doc and .wma files)
# [12:14] <zcorpan> this seems useful http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2009/02/html5-canvas-cheat-sheet.html
# [12:19] * Parts: annevk2 (n=opera@fnttkyo029008.tkyo.fnt.ftth2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
# [12:19] <Hixie> ok, dealt with all the video feedback
# [12:20] <Hixie> (other than caption stuff)
# [12:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks :)
# [12:21] <zcorpan> looks good on first read
# [12:23] <Lachy> it's interesting that the table on this page uses summary="" itself, but it contains information that would have been useful to me if I didn't have to look at the source to see it. http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/summary.html
# [12:25] <jgraham> That use of summary doesn't comply with WCAG2 AIUI
# [12:26] <zcorpan> seems like that should be before or after the table labelled as "Conclusion:"
# [12:26] <jgraham> Although I don't really understand WCAG2
# [12:27] <jgraham> (specifically it doens't use the summary as indicated in http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html but I don't know if that is just supposed to be a suggestion or what)
# [12:27] <zcorpan> jgraham: that's non-normative :)
# [12:28] <jgraham> zcorpan: Does WCAG have any normative conditions?
# [12:28] <Hixie> well in a shocking turn of events, i've actually run out of urgent feedback that isn't blocked on other stuff
# [12:28] <jgraham> In any case violating non-normative suggestions about how to best use the attribute in an article designed to show that the attribute is used correctly is... interesting
# [12:29] <Lachy> Hixie, take a holiday for a few weeks and relax :-)
# [12:29] <zcorpan> jgraham: yes, http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#content-structure-separation-programmatic is normative
# [12:30] <Hixie> i was thinking that i could do the editorial stuff sam was saying i should do
# [12:30] <Lachy> Hixie, bug 6613 isn't blocked by anything
# [12:30] <Hixie> i haven't looked at the bugs
# [12:30] <Hixie> are any of them urgent?
# [12:30] <Lachy> I don't know. That's the one I just filed.
# [12:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: my issues! address my issues first!
# [12:32] <zcorpan> :)
# [12:32] <Hixie> if you have any that affect implementations, let me know
# [12:32] <Hixie> if they're bugs, mark them P1 or critical (or both)
# [12:34] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [12:35] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336 seems fixed in the spec already
# [12:35] <Hixie> cool
# [12:39] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6438 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6462 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6494 would probably make pf people happy
# [12:40] <hsivonen> In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to stir things around bug 6494 before the group speccing ATAG decides what they want authoring tools to do
# [12:41] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6353 seems fixed now
# [12:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: 6494 doesn't suggest any normative changes but i guess it might stir things anyway
# [12:42] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [12:44] <Hixie> i guess we do want to disallow cyclic references in headers="", huh
# [12:44] <Hixie> even though it doesn't cause any harm algorithm-wise
# [12:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: you ok with checking for this and flagging it?
# [12:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, eventually, but it'll probably wait on other higher-priority stuff
# [12:46] <Hixie> k
# [12:52] <Hixie> holy crap, a CFL light just blew on me
# [12:53] <Hixie> i've only had it two years!
# [12:53] <Hixie> what kind of crap is this!
# [12:53] <zcorpan> Hixie: time for a new blog post?
# [12:53] <Hixie> hah
# [12:54] <Hixie> i don't care as much about CFL lights as about my LED bike lights :-)
# [12:54] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.21.120)
# [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I just witnessed one go bad in under a month
# [12:55] <Hixie> under a month! it was probably still under warranty!
# [12:55] <Lachy> presumably you can only claim warranty if you kept the receipt. But who keeps those for everything?
# [12:56] * Quits: enki_ (n=enki@c-67-188-42-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [12:56] <hsivonen> I might complain if I have another reason to visit the seller premises in the near future
# [12:56] <zcorpan> Lachy: i do for things i might find broken and want to return
# [12:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: you really think i shouldn't do 6494 yet?
# [12:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
# [12:58] <Hixie> did steve just point-blank admit to trolling on public-html
# [12:58] <Hixie> or am i seeing things
# [12:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think we should wait for concrete ATAG 2.0 draft text and then make machine-checkable conformance broad enough to make conforming all outputs of ATAG 2.0-recommended authoring tool behavior
# [12:59] <Hixie> you had me at "yes"
# [13:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: either he is being sarcastic or he is admitting trolling
# [13:02] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-24-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
# [13:06] <zcorpan> or he implied "... according to WCAG 2 techniques with which i disagree"
# [13:06] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
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# [13:06] <zcorpan> assuming we're talking about the same thing here :)
# [13:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wouldn't that be trolling?
# [13:07] <Lachy> zcorpan, I think the trolling was where he said "I used the summary in this way on prupose, because i figured that people would look at it and comment on its incorrect use."
# [13:08] <hsivonen> so who *does* agree with the WCAG advice here?
# [13:08] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
# [13:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'll try to make SAX Tree and XOM tree builders not suck perf-wise when there's a lot of stuff to foster parent
# [13:09] <hsivonen> we'll see if I break something...
# [13:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: uh yeah i guess it would
# [13:10] <Lachy> considering the actual conformance criteria in WCAG2 are so vague and incomprehensible without reading the Understanding and Techniques documents, choosing to ignore the advisory techniques you disagree with seems to leaves them open to a lot of interpretation
# [13:10] <Lachy> s/seems to leaves/leaves/
# [13:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, I think that's a pretty significant flaw. particularly in a document that clearly has been written as basis for litigation
# [13:11] <Lachy> "There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call about what information should appear in text and what would need to be directly associated, and it may be most appropriate to duplicate some information (for instance, in an HTML table, providing the summary both in the paragraph before the table and in the summary attribute of the table itself). However, wherever possible it is necessary for the information to be programmatically determined rath
# [13:11] <Lachy> er than providing a text description before encountering the table."
# [13:11] <Lachy> -- http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html
# [13:12] <Lachy> So WCAG2 recommends dupicating information just to achieve programmatic association?!
# [13:12] <hsivonen> I love the use of "wherever possible" in the light of comments on the use of "when possible" in HTML Design Principles
# [13:12] <Lachy> LOL
# [13:13] <Lachy> well, this is an informative document. WCAG 1 had "when possible" in normative criteria
# [13:14] * zcorpan doesn't think it makes sense to have normative criteria for "guidelines" in the first place
# [13:15] <zcorpan> or the title should have been WCAR
# [13:16] <hsivonen> it seems to me WCAG family of documents wants to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to normativity
# [13:17] <zcorpan> hmm autobuffer="" seems nice, i had only thought about using heuristics
# [13:18] * Philip` wonders if http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top has turned out to be of significant value or not
# [13:18] <Hixie> not enough people voted on issues for it to be valuable
# [13:18] * hsivonen wonders if it's bad for SAX Tree to have a tree node per character for foster-parented text
# [13:19] * zcorpan wonders what a tree node is
# [13:19] * Philip` wonders what a character is
# [13:19] <hsivonen> if I fix the O(n^2) search behavior
# [13:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: UTF-16 code unit
# [13:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: a node is an object with 7 pointers and two ints
# [13:21] <Philip`> (<table>aaaaaa is presumably easier to handle than <table>aaa</td>aaa because in the former case you could just pass a string of consecutive characters into the tree builder and treat them as a single unit)
# [13:21] <hsivonen> seems like no big deal in usual cases and bad in the kind of cases Philip` finds on the Web
# [13:22] <Philip`> The case where I had problems was because a bug in my code put a megabyte of null bytes after a <table> - I don't think I encountered any real web content with the same problem
# [13:22] <hsivonen> ok. then I don't optimize further than eliminating the O(n^2) behavior
# [13:23] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [13:24] <Philip`> It seems a bit bad that I could cause you to use ~576 bytes of memory for every byte I send over the network
# [13:25] <Lachy> Hixie, how about also adding a note to clarify that <meta charset> doesn't actually have any effect in XHTML even if set to another value
# [13:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah. the alternative is adding the complexity of early coalescing...
# [13:26] <Philip`> Hixie: "There must not be more than one element with a charset attribute per document." sounds a bit misinterpretable, because you can have <script charset/><script charset/> in a document, so maybe it should be clarified to say "meta element"
# [13:26] <hsivonen> which would have the benefit of saving per code-unit method invocation overhead with all tree builders
# [13:27] <hsivonen> foster parenting is such an annoyance
# [13:27] <Lachy> basically, something to preempt the bad advice about needing to use it to specify the encoding of XHTML, which we've already seen plenty of for XHTML1
# [13:28] * jgraham is now thoroughly confused about when it is OK to disagree with various parts of WCAG
# [13:28] <jgraham> Does it make a difference if one is a self-proclaimed accessbility expert or not?
# [13:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Would early coalescing still result in <table>a</td>a</td>a... using ~576 bytes of memory for every 5 bytes I send over the network?
# [13:29] <Philip`> (where '5 bytes' means 'approximately 1 bit, if I use compression')
# [13:29] <Hixie> fixed the charset rules
# [13:29] * Joins: enki (n=enki@c-67-188-42-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [13:30] <Hixie> thanks for the feedback
# [13:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's your pointer size if you get 576 instead of 120 or 92?
# [13:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: but yes
# [13:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: note that you can already make SAX Tree use a lot of memory by sending <b>b</b>a<b>b</b>...
# [13:31] <Philip`> "the resource must be encoded using the UTF-8 character encoding" - what does that mean? Could I write a file containing <meta charset="utf-8"/> and encode the characters as UTF-8, and then serve it as application/xhtml+xml;charset=iso-8859-1? I still encoded the resource as UTF-8
# [13:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: Um...
# [13:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: 64 bytes
# [13:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: my pointer size is 64 *bits* ;-)
# [13:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: I realise that now :-)
# [13:32] <Hixie> Philip`: that would be a violation of some other rule
# [13:33] <Philip`> hsivonen: so it'd be like 7*64 + 2*32 bits, which is like 64 bytes, plus a little bit of overhead for the JVM, I guess
# [13:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: When we have 512bit cpus then Philip` will look prophetic
# [13:33] <Philip`> Hixie: Even if the document is perfectly valid iso-8859-1?
# [13:34] <Hixie> Philip`: if it's actually US-ASCII, and thus both UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1, I don't really care if there's a mismatch.
# [13:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: on of the requirements for SAX Tree is being able to reconstuct SAX Locator data upon playback
# [13:34] <hsivonen> oops it's 7 pointers and 4 ints
# [13:35] <Philip`> Hixie: What if it's not US-ASCII, but still is both UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1?
# [13:35] <hsivonen> plus JVM overhead, which I assume to be at least two pointers and one int (considering that there's an array involved)
# [13:35] <Philip`> (with different meaning in each)
# [13:36] * hsivonen can't count anymore
# [13:36] <Hixie> Philip`: well then there is a bug, because assuming you only have one document, one of the encodings is wrong.
# [13:36] <hsivonen> anyway, a handful of pointers and ints :-)
# [13:36] * Hixie wonders if rubys wanted status updates only on the "Open issues with open and pending review action items" or on everything on the agenda
# [13:36] <Hixie> the latter being way the hell too many things to comment on
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# [13:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: Fair enough :-)
# [13:41] <hsivonen> considering how stable the parsing algorithm is, it changes surprisingly often.
# [13:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: why no legacy encoding declaration for xhtml?
# [13:42] <Hixie> hm?
# [13:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah :-(
# [13:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: it'll be interesting to see how much the spec changes once we're in CR
# [13:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: (If you're fixing non-linear behaviour, will you add some limit on <i><b><i><b><i><b></i>x</i>x</i>x too?)
# [13:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: not today, no
# [13:43] <zcorpan> Hixie: you only allowed <meta charset="utf-8"/> in xhtml, not <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>
# [13:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm only fixing insertBefore in SAX Tree and XOM not to search the children of the foster parent repeatedly
# [13:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: Okay
# [13:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: Encouraging people to say their application/xhtml+xml files are text/html seems like a confusing idea
# [13:45] <Philip`> and given how many restrictions there already are when writing polyglot documents, having to use <meta charset> doesn't seem like a big deal
# [13:47] <Hixie> zcorpan: yes? we only need one way to do this, as far as i can tell.
# [13:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, fair enough. it wasn't clear to me if it was intentional or not
# [13:47] <Hixie> yeah
# [13:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: is it intended that the requirements in #character-encoding-declaration apply to xml too?
# [13:48] <Hixie> no
# [13:49] <Hixie> though i suppose it should
# [13:49] * Hixie goes to change that
# [13:49] <Hixie> again
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# [13:58] <Hixie> http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/ seems to apply equally well to rdfa
# [14:02] <Philip`> When I sort of tried using hCard once, the main difficulty was that its required structure didn't match the markup structure I wanted to use, so I ended up adding stuff like <span style=display:none>,</span> to get the right output for both hCard and visual display
# [14:04] <Philip`> and if I was doing something more complex, like having details for multiple people mixed together in the same page, it seems it'd probably be impossible to get right
# [14:05] <Philip`> RDFa seems much better in that regard, because you're just specifying a load of triples and you can put them wherever you want, rather than having to nest your markup precisely how someone thought your data should be nested
# [14:05] <Lachy> Philip`, that's the same problem I encountered when I used hCard once
# [14:06] <Lachy> hmm, I recall trying to use hcard on my own site's contact page once, but it appears I must have given up since it's not even there now
# [14:06] <jgraham> Are microformats considered a success?
# [14:07] <Philip`> (and RDFa adds @content for the cases where the structured data doesn't quite appear in the markup at all)
# [14:07] <Lachy> jgraham, they're not a total failure, since they've been put to good use in some places that I've heard about. It's difficult to say whether they're a success though
# [14:08] <Philip`> so if I have a page which says "<h1>Mr & Mrs Smith</h1> ...their postal address...", there isn't anything in the page which says "Mr Smith" so I can't associate the address with him if I'm using microformats, as far as I'm aware
# [14:08] <Lachy> (one good use I heard about was in a university intranet, where contact pages were marked up with hcard and a service was provided to extract the information to a vcard
# [14:09] <jgraham> Lachy: Any good public examples? I tried using Operator once which is the kind of magic GUI generation thing that all the RDFa people are so excited about and it was just as bad as you might imagine an autogenerated GUI would be
# [14:09] <Philip`> (I guess RDFa might have the problem that it can't associate the same address details with two separate people?)
# [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: they don't seem like a total success in the sense that mainstream browsing setups doesn't support saving hCard and hCalendar entries into Address Book and iCal
# [14:10] <Philip`> (but at least it works somewhat better than microformats in that case)
# [14:13] <hsivonen> whee! I broke foster parenting
# [14:14] * zcorpan wonders whether hsivonen is happy to check that <meta charset="utf-8"/> is within 512 bytes and doesn't use entities in xml
# [14:14] <Philip`> Think of the children!
# [14:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm not
# [14:14] <Philip`> You can't just go around breaking their critical support structures :-(
# [14:14] <Lachy> jgraham, I think this is the one I mentioned above. It seems it is public after all. http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/phone_search.pl?format=browse_detail&gotFrame=y&rec_num=1854
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# [14:15] <Hixie> ok nn
# [14:16] <zcorpan> nn
# [14:17] <jgraham> Lachy: That is only really interesting if you have a client that doesn't need tht VCard though (since otherwise you may as well ignore the microformat and generate the vCard on the server)
# [14:17] <jgraham> nn
# [14:17] <jgraham> ^That was simed at Hixie
# [14:19] <hsivonen> something weird happens with the new foster parenting rule with <a><table><a>
# [14:20] <hsivonen> although the new rule isn't supposed to change anything in non-scripted scenarios
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# [14:22] <Lachy> jgraham, yeah, except I think the service itself uses the hcard markup to generate the vcard. But I could be wrong, and perhaps it just generates it directly from the database.
# [14:26] <hsivonen> aargh. the foster parenting breaks compat
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# [14:27] <hsivonen> I haven't yet figured out why
# [14:31] <hsivonen> ok. figured out why
# [14:32] <hsivonen> the second <a> removes the previous <a> from stack before foster parenting runs
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# [14:35] <zcorpan> Lachy: there's a requirement in the "encoding declaration state" text that prevents having both <meta charset> and <meta content...>
# [14:36] <zcorpan> although i agree it could be clearer
# [14:36] <zcorpan> e.g. by being a bullet-point in the list of requirements for encoding declarations
# [14:42] <Lachy> zcorpan, feel free to comment on the bug about that
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# [15:01] <annevk2> Hixie, I'd argue <meta charset="utf8"/> and friends should be ok as well...
# [15:01] <annevk2> or is there a requirement that you use the canonical version of the character encoding somewhere?
# [15:06] <Lachy> annevk2, utf8 isn't a valid alias of UTF-8
# [15:06] <Lachy> it's not listed here http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets
# [15:07] <annevk2> it matches per Unicode though
# [15:07] <annevk2> but fair enough I suppose
# [15:08] <rubys> I'm very much OK with Ian crafting a very narrow exception that permits just this one use case
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# [15:11] <Philip`> "If you are Sam Ruby then you MAY include the byte sequence <meta charset="UTF-8" /> in XML documents"
# [15:11] <Lachy> hey, was the requirement that <meta charset> had to be the first element in the <head> dropped?
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# [15:11] <Lachy> I'm updating the FAQ, and that's still mentioned in there.
# [15:11] <rubys> um, that's a wee bit too narrow. :-)
# [15:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, the first child req sucked
# [15:12] <Lachy> ok, I'll change it in the FAQ to make it a recommendation for authors only.
# [15:13] <annevk2> rubys, but I'm not :p
# [15:14] <rubys> annevk2: go for it! But seriously, the goal isn't to get meta charset support for XHTML5 documents; if that were the goal, I'd argue for ISO-8859-7 and any other ASCII-based but non ISO-8859-1 based charset.
# [15:15] <annevk2> I should probably check the exact requirements on <meta charset> in general
# [15:15] <annevk2> I'm fine with polyglot being restricted to UTF-8
# [15:17] <rubys> For maximal interop, all XML should be either UTF-8 or UTF-16.
# [15:18] <annevk2> ah, it seems it is consistent with <meta charset> requirements
# [15:18] <hsivonen> did Hixie impose the 512 byte req on XHTML?
# [15:18] <annevk2> though it would be slightly better imo if it just said that the encoding was restricted to utf-8
# [15:18] <annevk2> hsivonen, that's the intent
# [15:18] <hsivonen> not cool
# [15:19] <annevk2> because in that case the other requirements would follow naturally
# [15:19] <hsivonen> after all, XHTML5 validation doesn't otherwise involve checking that the doc is a polyglot doc
# [15:20] <rubys> Do you flag, as an error, a meta charset after 512 in text/html?
# [15:21] <hsivonen> rubys: I think I do. If I don't, it's a regression.
# [15:22] <rubys> my question was error vs warning.
# [15:22] <hsivonen> rubys: however, I'm not at all interested in implementing the same check into an XML parser I didn't write
# [15:22] <rubys> the feed validator has a select few checks it does on the byte stream before passing the whole mess off to the xml parser
# [15:23] <hsivonen> rubys: still works, and it's an error
# [15:25] <Lachy> hsivonen, just give a warning to users when its encountered in XHTML saying the 512 byte restriction was not checked
# [15:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: giving a warning means I can't implement the check as a RELAX NG datatype
# [15:26] <hsivonen> (even after hacking Jing to expose the encoding to datatypes)
# [15:26] <Lachy> I don't think the 512 byte restriction needs to apply to XHTML, since it's just a talisman in that case
# [15:26] <annevk2> (was just going to ask about that)
# [15:27] <hsivonen> eww. we now have a "frameset-ok" flag? :-(
# [15:28] <Philip`> If you want to write a valid polyglot document, you'll already have to validate it as both HTML and XHTML to detect all the errors, and so it'll warn you about the 512-byte thing when you validate as HTML, and it doesn't need an extra warning in XHTML
# [15:28] <rubys> lachy: a warning was my thoughts too
# [15:28] <rubys> but I don't sense that hsivonen's reluctance has anything to do with warning vs error, more with having to do the check at all
# [15:29] <Lachy> FAQ updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#How_do_I_specify_the_character_encoding.3F
# [15:30] <Philip`> I think the reluctance is because it's ugly to implement a correct check, and Lachy was suggesting a vague non-correct warning instead (which is easier to implement because it doesn't violate layering)
# [15:30] <Philip`> s/non-correct/non-precise/
# [15:30] <Philip`> s/vague//
# [15:30] <Philip`> s/.*//
# [15:30] <rubys> lol
# [15:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: dude! you added a whitespaceness-sensitive action to the most common insertion mode!
# [15:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: You don't have to check the whitespaceness except in the rare cases when frameset-ok == ok, though
# [15:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: still, not nice
# [15:38] <Philip`> Split the mode into in-body-and-frameset-ok and in-body-and-frameset-not-ok modes, and switch between them the appropriate time, and then the latter mode won't have to do anything fancy at all :-)
# [15:38] * Philip` guesses it's not really that easy in practice
# [15:41] * Philip` discovers that "mae east" and "mae west" give very different sets of results on Google
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# [15:42] <hsivonen> what's the logic in what start tags set frameset-ok to "not ok"?
# [15:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: treating frameset-ok as an insertion mode looks like a sensible idea on the face of it
# [15:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why frameset-ok is not an insertion mode?
# [15:45] <jgraham> Today we will be playing a game called confuse the f**k out of james about how, when, or if, people advocating @summary think it should be used
# [15:45] <rubys> oooh, can I plan?
# [15:45] <jgraham> This is not a hard game because james is easilly confused
# [15:45] <rubys> s/plan/play/... more funnier that way
# [15:46] <jgraham> rubys: Sure, let me just reset my confusedness bit
# [15:47] * annevk2 sets it to one
# [15:47] <Philip`> jgraham: It's not necessary to know how or when @summary should be used; it suffices to prove the existence of cases where it should be used, and thus it must be allowed, regardless of what anyone's actually going to do with it
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# [15:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, I think there's a bug in your parser. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fbqpwl9&showsource=yes
# [15:50] <Lachy> have you not added support for <datalist> yet?
# [15:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: for now, I don't understand why that happens
# [15:54] <Lachy> would you like me to file a bug about it?
# [15:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: that would help, yes.
# [15:55] <hsivonen> ??? how could the stack have an <option> element on it in any case?
# [15:55] * hsivonen reads changes to </body> 'in body'
# [15:56] <Dashiva> If </datalist> doesn't close </option>...
# [15:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think Dashiva has the answer
# [16:00] <Lachy> but <datalist> should close the <option>, shouldn't it? Just like <select> does
# [16:02] <Lachy> but there's also the other error about list="" not pointing to a datalist or select element, which doens't make sesne.
# [16:05] <Philip`> Hmm, the BBC iPlayer appears to provide subtitles using http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/
# [16:05] <hsivonen> I think it's weird that <var> doesn't behave like the other italicizing elements when it comes to AAA
# [16:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, I got an error from your bugzilla: "undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22. "
# [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: do they have a dedicated app that consumes DFXP?
# [16:06] <Lachy> that showed up after I tried to submit a new bug report
# [16:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, that's annoying. Sorry about that. I have no idea how to fix.
# [16:07] <Lachy> should I just try again, or just email you the bug report instead?
# [16:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: no, the bug was filed ok. Thanks
# [16:07] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/subtitles-1.xml
# [16:07] <Lachy> ok
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# [16:07] <Philip`> (Was that transcribed live? It looks pretty rubbish quality...)
# [16:08] <Philip`> (which is strange since it's a prerecorded show)
# [16:09] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/subtitles-2.xml looks much better quality
# [16:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: The streaming Flash player doesn't seem to support subtitles, as far as I've seen; I don't know about the offline downloader application, or about the versions on other devices
# [16:12] <Philip`> Oh
# [16:13] <Philip`> Apparently the Flash version does, and I just haven't clicked on that button
# [16:13] <Philip`> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_subtitles_increase_our.html
# [16:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you know if BBC ever uses features that go beyond rendering plain string at given times?
# [16:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: The subtitles-2.xml uses colours to distinguish speakers
# [16:14] * danbri doesn't know
# [16:15] <danbri> at joost we had quite a fancy api for subtitles / annotations, ...
# [16:15] <danbri> ...but not much actual data
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# [16:18] <Philip`> (subtitles-2 uses multiple colours in a single line to distinguish speakers, too)
# [16:19] <jgraham> Do they outline in a different colour to make sure the words stand out against the background?
# [16:20] <hsivonen> interesting. I'm surprised that someone actually uses the more advanced features at all
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# [16:20] <Philip`> jgraham: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/3131207136_59b2f4dccf_o.jpg looks outlined
# [16:22] <Philip`> Oh, the colours don't work at all in the Flash player
# [16:22] <Philip`> It's all just white with black outline
# [16:22] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/134727/whats-the-key-difference-between-html4-and-html5/135585#135585
# [16:22] <hsivonen> "HTML 5 invites you give add a lot of semantic value to your code."
# [16:23] * Philip` looks at half a dozen other subtitle files, but none appear to use anything more complex than colour and <br/>
# [16:24] * Philip` supposes the offline player might not ignore colours
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# [16:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is well known that HTML n+1 has that property for all n because semantics are good and so newer releases must add more of them. Or something.
# [16:27] <Philip`> jgraham: Your explanation is incomplete, as it does not include the fact that XHTML 1.0 has more semantic value than HTML 4
# [16:28] <jgraham> Philip`: Adding an X to the front puts you on a triple semantics score
# [16:28] * hsivonen mumbles about releases with .2 minor number
# [16:29] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled by the the modeness of 'in foreign' and the flagness of frameset-ok
# [16:30] <hsivonen> seems backwards to me :-)
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# [17:01] <hsivonen> so the new thread-friendly AAA sometimes creates a node that isn't needed. seems harmless enough if the test cases are any indication
# [17:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: There yet?
# [17:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
# [17:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: See my changes to Anolis?
# [17:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
# [17:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: Go, look.
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# [17:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just pulled them
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# [17:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: From the logs it seems good. I'll need to change the frontend to match the new option names
# [17:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't understand your question about html5lib 0.12
# [17:06] <jgraham> the ns stuff
# [17:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Does the SVG/MathML branch put HTML elements into the HTML namespace?
# [17:07] <jgraham> Optionally yes
# [17:07] <gsnedders> k
# [17:07] <jgraham> I am prepared to be persuaded about the default value of that option
# [17:07] <gsnedders> I'd say yes, per spec.
# [17:07] <jgraham> (my preference is "no")
# [17:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: So, per Hixie's latest tinking there is no spec for libraries except insofar as they are used in a UA. Therefore I can do what I like as long as there is at least an option to make the behaviour conforming :)_
# [17:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm not entirely sure I agree with that reading of the spec
# [17:09] <gsnedders> I know it's what Hixie meant by the edit, but I'm not entirely convinced from the text.
# [17:09] <hsivonen> I'm not convinced that letting browsers and libs diverge is a good thing
# [17:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: Which edit (I was talking about an IRC conversation)
# [17:09] <jgraham> ?
# [17:10] <gsnedders> The spec should, for parsing, define what the output tree should be like. What is doing the parsing should be irrelevant.
# [17:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't remember :P
# [17:12] <Philip`> gsnedders: Libraries don't necessarily output trees; it only makes sense to require a tree in (scripted) browsers, where there has to be a DOM tree that results from parsing
# [17:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: What else could the library do? It needs to be a tree — it doesn't work streaming without fatal errors.
# [17:13] <Philip`> If you don't have a whole browser, HTML5 doesn't define any way to determine the output of parsing, so there's no restriction on libraries
# [17:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: You could stream a mutation event
# [17:14] <Philip`> You could construct an internal tree and then stream it out as a series of events
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# [17:14] <Philip`> You could output a stream of RDF triples
# [17:15] * gsnedders collapses off his chair laughing at the suggestion
# [17:15] <Philip`> You could strip all the tags and just output plain text
# [17:15] <Philip`> There's lots of things a parser library could (and should be allowed to) do
# [17:19] <hsivonen> the triple thing could work. you could use http://n.whatwg.org/2009/02/23/previous-sibling as a predicate that gives order to children that have the same http://n.whatwg.org/2009/02/23/parent
# [17:20] <Philip`> Presumably you'd have to generate a GUID-based URI for every element in the document
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# [17:32] <gsnedders> Time to review Web sockets, me thinks
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# [19:31] <karlcow> I wonder if this explains the social behavior of many geeks in the silicon valley - http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/a_singles_map_of_the_united_states_of_america/
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# [19:39] <jrharshath> I was going through a few threads of the whatwg's mailing list archives...
# [19:39] <jrharshath> can anyone tell me what the TCPConnection() thing is?
# [19:40] <Lachy> it was a DOM api for creating TCP connections. I think it was largely replaced by WebSockets
# [19:41] <jrharshath> TCP connections to ... ?
# [19:41] <jrharshath> to the server where the web app originated from, i'd guess?
# [19:45] <Philip`> jrharshath: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-network.html#tcpconnection
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# [19:49] <gsnedders> jrharshath: Anywhere, IIRC
# [19:50] * gsnedders is wrong
# [19:50] <gsnedders> (again)
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# [19:56] <jrharshath> gsnedders: pardon? i am new to IRC, so i don't follow the jargon..
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# [21:03] <jrharshath> On http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-network.html#tcpconnection, I read: "This interface does not allow for raw access to the underlying network. For example, this interface could not be used to implement an IRC client without proxying messages through a custom server."
# [21:03] <jrharshath> I also read that "[the network connections interface will ] enable Web applications to communicate with each other in local area networks..."
# [21:04] <jrharshath> what do the two statements imply?
# [21:04] <Philip`> jrharshath: You can connect to arbitrary servers, but only using a special protocol which is incompatible with standard protocols
# [21:05] <jrharshath> so its not like writing a C program and opening a TCP Socket?
# [21:05] <Philip`> No
# [21:05] <Philip`> because that would be very insecure
# [21:06] <Philip`> e.g. it would let you speak HTTP to any server, and circumvent all the same-origin restrictions in current browsers
# [21:06] <jrharshath> hmm.. I agree.
# [21:06] <jrharshath> can you give me more reasons please?
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# [21:08] <Philip`> Isn't that enough reason? :-)
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# [21:11] <jrharshath> and, what would the special protocol be?
# [21:12] <Philip`> It would be whatever is described in the spec, I presume
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# [21:13] <Philip`> in section 6.3.7.1
# [21:13] <jrharshath> okay, got to it.
# [21:13] <jrharshath> ty :)
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# [23:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i could have the spec say that if there's a <meta charset=""> in an XML doc, the doc must also validate as a text/html doc :-)
# [23:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i can remove the 512 requirement if you don't think it's useful
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# [23:49] <roc> Hixie: thanks for all those video edits. they look good so far
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# Session Close: Tue Feb 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)