/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-26 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Feb 26 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <Hixie> ok i fixed the problems in ff2
# [00:01] <Hixie> now upgrading to ff3 to fix those
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# [00:21] <Hixie> whatwg list should work again btw
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# [00:43] <aroben> hsivonen: yt?
# [00:44] <aroben> hsivonen: nm, I've discovered the validator.nu bugzilla
# [00:45] <virtuelv> This might be a dumb question, but is there any particular reason why <meter> is linear only?
# [00:47] <virtuelv> I mean, you have stuff like vu meters which decidedly are logarithmic in nature
# [00:48] <Hixie> just a matter of starting simple
# [00:48] <Hixie> you can use <meter> for log scales, just log the values first :-)
# [00:50] <virtuelv> indeed, but it's nicer to avoid doing a transform on them
# [00:50] <Lachy> virtuelv, if, once <meter> is deployed, we see evidence of people using them for logarithm scales, we can investigate solutions for HTML6
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# [00:52] <Lachy> do you have an example of something that uses a log scale and for which <meter> would be useful?
# [00:52] <virtuelv> I gave one a bit up
# [00:53] <virtuelv> you'll find the examples mostly in science
# [00:53] <Lachy> I don't know what a "vu meter" is. I meant do you have an example you could point me to?
# [00:53] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VU_meter
# [00:55] <virtuelv> occurences of logarithmic scales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale
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# [01:05] <virtuelv> This also worries me:
# [01:05] <virtuelv> "The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range, or a fractional value; for example disk usage, the relevance of a query result, or the fraction of a voting population to have selected a particular candidate."
# [01:05] <virtuelv> it's not clear to me from reading what "known range is"
# [01:05] <virtuelv> is 1-[over 9000] a valid known range?
# [01:06] <virtuelv> [over 9000] is an indeterminate number, only known to be over 9000
# [01:07] <virtuelv> it could be 9001, or 9000^10e8
# [01:08] <Lachy> virtuelv, I think the spec means a range in which both the upper and lower values are known and exact values
# [01:08] <virtuelv> Lachy: and I'm arguing that that is completely wrong
# [01:09] <virtuelv> in the Wikipedia article, there is a perfectly valid usage example of the upper bound being a random number exceeding some value
# [01:09] <Lachy> how would you possibly implement a range in which, e.g., the upper value is somewhere between 9000 and infinity?
# [01:10] <Lachy> which example, specifically?
# [01:10] <virtuelv> the tsunami example
# [01:10] <virtuelv> it's something entirely representable and acceptable within a meter
# [01:11] <virtuelv> disregard the presentation given there
# [01:11] <Lachy> I can't see tsunami mentioned on either the VU_meter or Logarithm_scale pages.
# [01:12] <virtuelv> the map in «Graphic representation»
# [01:13] <virtuelv> an alternative representation here would typically be a bar chart of values
# [01:13] <virtuelv> see also the example in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH
# [01:13] <virtuelv> "Applications"
# [01:15] <Lachy> in that map, the scale is still physically limited to using a single colour for values of 100,000+. To represent such values with a <meter>, you would have to set a fixed upper limit to what can be represented
# [01:16] <virtuelv> Lachy: and the spec claims that meter has a finite upper bound
# [01:17] <virtuelv> ""The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range""
# [01:17] <virtuelv> the point that "over 9000" is not within a known range
# [01:18] <Lachy> in that specific map example, you would only need to represent 6 values <meter low=1 high=6>#</meter>, where # is the value
# [01:19] <virtuelv> Lachy: no
# [01:19] <virtuelv> the ph scale is infinite in either direction
# [01:19] <Lachy> well, actually, you might do <meter low=1 high=6 value=3>100-999</meter>
# [01:20] <virtuelv> Lachy: which, again, is not included in the very first sentence in the very first paragraph of the definition of the <meter>
# [01:20] <Lachy> there is no possible way to represent an infinite scale. You have to set a physical upper limit and live with it
# [01:21] <virtuelv> (there is a point here about logarithmic scales and values and ranges
# [01:21] <virtuelv> trying to argue against this is arguing against a couple of hundred years of science where logarithmic scales have been used
# [01:22] <Lachy> I'm not arguing against logarithmic scales. I'm saying that to represent them, something, somewhere, needs to set an upper limit in order to be able to render the scale within a finite size.
# [01:23] <virtuelv> no, you *can't*
# [01:23] <virtuelv> the point is that +inf is a perfectly valid upper bound as well
# [01:24] <Hixie> syp: works fine for me in ff3 on windows
# [01:25] <syp> Hixie: ff3 should be fine, it's only 3.1 beta2 that had issues.
# [01:25] <Lachy> sure, mathematically, it is. But I'm talking about how to represent that physically where it is absolutely not possible to represent truly infinite scale in a finite space. There are physical limits that have to be dealt with, and that map example is a perfect illustration, since it sets the physical limit at 100,000+
# [01:25] <Hixie> syp: oh, a beta, ok
# [01:25] <Hixie> syp: sorry, missed the beta part :-)
# [01:26] <Hixie> virtuelv: <meter> isn't yet intended for all those cases
# [01:26] <virtuelv> Hixie: what is, then?
# [01:26] <Hixie> in html5? nothing, just like html4
# [01:26] <Hixie> ue svg :-)
# [01:26] <virtuelv> right now it seems to mostly cater to google pagerank display and search result relevance
# [01:26] <Hixie> use even
# [01:27] <syp> Hixie: and it now works with Firefox 3.1 post beta2, so that shouldn't be a big deal.
# [01:27] <virtuelv> in the matter of max value and upper bound, sure it's ok to impose a "practical" limit
# [01:27] <Hixie> syp: k
# [01:28] <Hixie> virtuelv: the main use case now is to discourage people from using <progress>
# [01:28] <virtuelv> huh?
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# [01:29] <Hixie> the main use case for <meter> is to give people who would otherwise abuse <progress> to show static data an alternative
# [01:30] <Hixie> so that people don't abuse <progress>
# [01:31] <virtuelv> yes, I understand that's what you meant, I'm just puzzled by why you're creating one element with limited use to discourage use of other elements
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# [01:32] <virtuelv> that's like reinstating <strike> into the spec because otherwise people would abuse <del>
# [01:36] <virtuelv> <strike> would've been better named as <justkidding>
# [01:36] <Hixie> virtuelv: well for <del> here's CSS
# [01:36] <Hixie> for <progress> there isn't really a good alternative right now for non-progress meters
# [01:36] <Hixie> i expect <meter> will be extended in html6, like everything else
# [01:36] <Hixie> we have to start small
# [01:37] <Hixie> holy crap the HTML5 spec doesn't work well in IE8 compat mode
# [01:37] <Hixie> about 25% down the spec disappears
# [01:37] <Hixie> wtf
# [01:40] <virtuelv> Hixie: for then, could you also make a note of having a mechanism for discretization of values for meter (and possibly progress, even)
# [01:41] <virtuelv> I mean, you can be 2/3rds done, but you want to represent it as one dot, two dots, three dots
# [01:41] <Hixie> ?
# [01:41] <Hixie> for when?
# [01:42] <Hixie> the presentational aspects are separate from html5 really
# [01:42] <Hixie> i mean there's a presentation section that gives some constraints
# [01:42] <Hixie> but generally it's up to the browser or the author with xbl
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# [01:49] <virtuelv> Hixie: my point is that, let's say I want to represent a large range of values with <meter> in a table
# [01:50] <virtuelv> I want the range 0-100 to be represented by a value of 1 indicator step in your default presentation
# [01:50] <virtuelv> the range 100-1000 by another
# [01:50] <virtuelv> and 1001-9000 by a third level
# [01:50] <virtuelv> and "over 9000" to be represented by a fourth
# [01:51] <virtuelv> (Sorry about the 4chan-trolling-Oprah example)
# [01:52] <Hixie> then just use a unicode block character or something
# [01:52] <Hixie> no need for <meter>
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# [01:53] <Hixie> yeah the problem is the idn thing
# [01:54] <Hixie> er, wrong channel again!
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# [02:45] <Hixie> huh, this turned out to be a pretty good article
# [02:45] <Hixie> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=protocols_and_standards&articleId=9128096&taxonomyId=141&intsrc=kc_feat
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# [03:07] <Lachy> compared with previous computer world articles I've read, that's certainly one of the better ones
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# [03:27] <Hixie> so is there a way to use these transition thingies to make an element flash yellow temporarily when it's the :target?
# [03:27] <Hixie> or does that require script somehow
# [03:29] <Lachy> Hixie, I think that would need a script or CSS Animations http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html
# [03:30] <Hixie> ooh, css animations
# [03:30] <Hixie> forgot about those
# [03:30] <Lachy> I think webkit supports that, though I haven't played with them yet. Opera doesn't yet have support for them, even internally
# [03:31] <roc_> I'm not sold on CSS animations
# [03:32] * roc_ is now known as roc
# [03:32] <roc> but I think you can do Hixie's thing using CSS transitions
# [03:32] <Lachy> how?
# [03:32] <Lachy> you would need a script to control it
# [03:32] <roc> set up a transition on, say, background-color
# [03:33] <roc> add a CSS rule blahblah:target { background-color:yellow; }
# [03:33] <Lachy> sure, but that only allows it to transition from one value to another. It won't flash temporarily as he wants.
# [03:33] <Hixie> yeah i'm just looking to flash it temporarily
# [03:33] <roc> just make the transition slow
# [03:34] <Hixie> i want the element to quickly go to yellow, then fade to white
# [03:34] <Hixie> when it is :target
# [03:34] <Hixie> the rule above would make it fade to yellow and stay yellow
# [03:34] <roc> you can control the shape of the transition
# [03:34] <Hixie> can you make it go backwards?
# [03:34] <Lachy> no, you can't make it go backwards
# [03:35] <Hixie> then it doesn't really help
# [03:35] <Hixie> unless i'm missing something
# [03:35] <roc> I guess you're right
# [03:36] <Lachy> maybe you could do it with generated content
# [03:37] <Hixie> oh?
# [03:37] <Lachy> hmm, thinking...
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# [03:39] <Lachy> foo::before { -o-transition: background-color 2s; background: yellow; visibility: hidden; position: ...; /* make it sit behind the element*/ } foo:target::before { visibility: visible; background: transparent; }
# [03:40] <roc> you could even use display:none instead of visiblity:hidden to make that less expensive
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# [03:41] <Lachy> roc, sure. I didn't realise there was a performance difference between the two
# [03:41] <Hixie> the "..." part is the tough one
# [03:42] <Lachy> hence why I did the "..." :-)
# [03:42] <Hixie> since for various reasons i don't want to set position:relative on everything else
# [03:43] <Lachy> if you want it to work for everything, setting position: relative; would be relatively inexpensive. But doing it for everything certainly would be painful.
# [03:43] <Lachy> I meant, if you want to do it for *headings only*
# [03:45] <roc> you could hack it with borders
# [03:45] <Lachy> try the old fashioned way: :target { background-image: url(animated-yellow-fadout.gif); }
# [03:46] <Lachy> how?
# [03:46] <Lachy> roc, how would you do it with borders?
# [03:46] <roc> foo { transition: border-color 2s; border-style:none; border-color:yellow; } foo:target { border-style:solid; border-color:transparent; }
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# [03:47] <roc> well I guess that doesn't do exactly what you want
# [03:47] <Lachy> but that doesn't have the border behind the element
# [03:47] <roc> maybe you want border-style:hidden so the layout doesn't change
# [03:47] <roc> or do it with 'outline' instead
# [03:48] <Lachy> an outline with an outline-offset might work.
# [03:48] <roc> Hixie didn't say it had to be behind the element
# [03:48] <Lachy> well, he said he wanted it for the background, which is behind the element.
# [03:49] <Lachy> well, at least, he implied it
# [03:49] <roc> not to me he didn't :-)
# [03:49] <Lachy> how else do you make "the element flash yellow"
# [03:50] <Hixie> i found another solution to bz's problem
# [03:50] <Hixie> body { margin-bottom: 25% }
# [03:50] <Lachy> what was his problem?
# [03:51] <Hixie> going to a small bottom section in the multipage version didn't clearly show which section was targetted
# [03:52] <Lachy> oh, ok. I was wondering why the spec wasn't long enough as it is :-)
# [03:52] <Hixie> hah
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# [03:54] <Lachy> Hixie, there's a bug in the status box script, which shows the floating status box for one section in subsequent sections if they don't have one of their own
# [03:55] <Hixie> that's intentional
# [03:55] <Hixie> feel free to add new section boxes if it's going from like an h3 section to an h2 section though
# [03:55] <Hixie> (the section boxes are actually just targetting any element child of <body> with an ID, iirc)
# [03:56] <Lachy> see, e.g., http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-marquee-element-0 and subsequent sections. It didn't make sense that it said Yet to be specified, even though the sections I'd scrolled to had lots of content
# [03:56] <Hixie> (i.e. they're not really "section" boxes)
# [03:56] <Lachy> ok
# [03:58] <Hixie> i added a box
# [03:58] <Hixie> ok dinner bbiab
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# [09:40] * Hixie kills <eventsource>
# [09:40] <Hixie> poor element
# [09:40] <Hixie> it had a rough life
# [09:40] * Hixie welcomes the new EventSource('...') object!
# [09:41] <hsivonen> Is new EventSource() compatible with what Opera shipped? That is, does it create an <event-source> DOM node in Opera? like Image()
# [09:41] <Hixie> no, not even remotely
# [09:41] <Hixie> but what the spec said yesterday wasn't either
# [09:42] <hsivonen> ok. sucks to be the one gaining impl. experience
# [09:42] <Hixie> yup
# [09:42] <Hixie> we've changed the wire format and its mime type since opera shipped event-sourec
# [09:42] <Hixie> event-source
# [09:42] <Hixie> and now the api
# [09:42] <Hixie> there's basically nothing left except the idea :-)
# [09:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: so what's the remaining selling point over Web Sockets? that you can feed EventSource from a regular HTTP server?
# [09:43] <Hixie> the only selling point over websocket that it's ever had is that it is compatible with CGI scripts
# [09:44] <Hixie> i.e. yes
# [09:44] <hsivonen> ok
# [09:44] <Hixie> but apparently that's enough to keep people eager to have it
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# [09:50] <annevk2> I'm sort of glad the API is much simpler now
# [09:51] <Hixie> it's actually technically more complicated :-)
# [09:51] <Hixie> at least, the idl is bigger
# [09:51] <Hixie> but yeah, it's simpler
# [09:51] <annevk2> dude
# [09:51] <Hixie> yes?
# [09:51] <annevk2> it was even more complicated at the start, when you could create all kinds of event objects
# [09:52] <annevk2> Hixie, I object to technically more complicated on the basis that the IDL has more lines!
# [09:52] <Hixie> :-)
# [09:52] <Hixie> it is indeed far simpler now
# [09:52] <Hixie> for example you can no longer hook an EventSource to an XMLHttpRequest object
# [09:52] <Hixie> (cue "awwwww")
# [09:52] <hsivonen> not AWWW? :-)
# [09:52] <Hixie> but i did add a few more features while i was at it
# [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: hah
# [09:55] <gsnedders> awwwww
# [09:55] * gsnedders misses that feature
# [09:57] <annevk2> Hixie, the URL attribute should probably return the absolute URL
# [09:59] <Hixie> remind me in ten minutes
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# [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/ is 403
# [10:25] <Hixie> yikes
# [10:26] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
# [10:27] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/
# [10:31] <annevk2> I have to say, it really sucks that the archives keep moving around
# [10:32] <annevk2> maybe we should ask the W3C for some mail server space o_O
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# [10:32] <Hixie> heh
# [10:34] <Hixie> did i miss some e-mails on the spellcheck issue? i have some still in my whatwg folder from before my last e-mail on the subject
# [10:34] <Hixie> how odd
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# [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
# [10:38] <hsivonen> I gather the URI structure instability is due to Dreamhost managing the whole thing?
# [10:38] <Hixie> yeah
# [10:38] <Hixie> the utter disaster of an archive system is blamed on the same reason
# [10:38] <annevk2> Hixie, do you remember the reason #123 does not work in CSS?
# [10:41] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@118.71.78.53) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [10:41] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/582352/how-can-i-ignore-dtd-validation-but-keep-the-doctype-when-writing-an-xml-file
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# [10:42] <Hixie> annevk2: because css1 says it doesn't? dunno
# [10:43] <hsivonen> Is this yet another case of an arbitrary decision that indents can't start with digits?
# [10:44] <hsivonen> Is that some kind of old programming language thing that parsers should be able to decide if they are parsing an ident or a number literal from the first character?
# [10:44] <annevk2> well, that has a reason, to distinguish them from numbers + unit
# [10:44] <annevk2> Hixie, I thought there was some other reason, ta
# [10:45] <hsivonen> oh, right CSS has units. not arbitrary then. sorry
# [10:46] <hsivonen> I'm just knee-jerk annoyed by stuff like XML Name
# [10:46] <annevk2> no shit
# [10:46] <annevk2> XML5 baby
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# [10:50] <Hixie> annevk2: my guess is originally hakon and bert were trying to match html
# [10:51] <Hixie> annevk2: hakon might know
# [10:51] <annevk2> kk
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# [10:54] <annevk2> crap, web-apps-tracker fails with a 500
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# [10:54] <annevk2> did DreamHost change anything?
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# [10:59] * Hixie looks in his filter folder
# [10:59] <Hixie> holy crap
# [10:59] <olliej> Hixie: that sky has fallen
# [10:59] <Hixie> so that's where all the public-html activity has gone
# [10:59] <olliej> s/that/the
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# [10:59] <Hixie> olliej: which one?
# [10:59] <olliej> Hixie: can you test html5.org ?
# [11:00] <Hixie> test?
# [11:00] * Hixie confoosed
# [11:00] <olliej> it's gone for me
# [11:00] <olliej> server no workie
# [11:00] <olliej> i'm trying to find out whether the server is down, or comcast hates freedom
# [11:00] <Hixie> yeah doesn't work for me either, but i'm on comcast
# [11:00] <Hixie> anne runs that server though
# [11:01] <olliej> bad annevk2
# [11:01] <annevk2> you joined just after I complained about DreamHost
# [11:02] <olliej> ah :D
# [11:02] <annevk2> because I didn't do shit
# [11:02] <olliej> annevk2: nerget.com is doing fine :D
# [11:02] <Hixie> so's whatwg.org :-)
# [11:03] <didymos> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/html5.org heh
# [11:03] <didymos> Hixie, but whatwg.org works fine
# [11:04] <annevk2> so everything went down?
# [11:04] <annevk2> geez
# [11:04] <annevk2> initially it was just the tracker
# [11:04] <Hixie> everything on your account, i guess
# [11:05] <annevk2> yeah
# [11:06] <gsnedders> And gsnedders.com isn't on dreamhost :P
# [11:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: What is it on?
# [11:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: mediatemple, for now
# [11:08] <Hixie> probably the same stuff gsnedders himself is on
# [11:08] <gsnedders> Touché.
# [11:08] <Hixie> :-D
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# [11:08] <gsnedders> Is it bad that I realized I haven't taken any (medical) drugs today because of that?
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# [11:09] <Hixie> as someone who rarely if ever takes medical drugs of any kind, i am not in a position to answer that question
# [11:10] * Philip` can't connect to hobgoblin at all
# [11:10] <gsnedders> annevk2: What's a spec you edit that uses biblio?
# [11:11] <gsnedders> (or anyone else edits, but you probably know what you edit better)
# [11:11] <Philip`> annevk2: I hope you'll refund a substantial portion of what I'm paying you for hosting philip.html5.org
# [11:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: It depends if it reminded you to take some regular medical drugs or if it was just a passing observation that you haven't taken any irregular drugs tody
# [11:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Regular medical drugs
# [11:12] <annevk2> gsnedders, I don't use biblio, I do stuff by hand
# [11:12] <gsnedders> Who does? P
# [11:12] <gsnedders> * :P
# [11:12] <annevk2> gsnedders, actually, css3-mediaqueries might use biblio
# [11:13] <annevk2> Philip`, EUR -1000 coming right at ye
# [11:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh well in that case it is probably good that it reminded you but bad that you had forgotten :)
# [11:13] <Philip`> annevk2: Excellent!
# [11:13] * gsnedders remembers seeing something that claims annevk2 edits using it
# [11:13] <gsnedders> annevk2: css-namespace does
# [11:14] <annevk2> well, that's two specs then
# [11:14] <gsnedders> But that was mainly fantasai judging from the commit log
# [11:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, it's reminded the reason why I haven't: I need food to have some of the pills, and I haven't had breakfast yet.
# [11:15] * jgraham sympathises
# [11:16] * jgraham suffers for incredible medication related paranoia as it is hard to conclusively prove to yourself that you took the right number of tablets at the right time
# [11:16] * gsnedders has probably taken numerous overdoses of paracetamol because of that, but has seemingly lived
# [11:19] <jgraham> I guess paracetamol is not so bad
# [11:19] * gsnedders is also nowadays reguarly on Diclofenac
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# [11:22] <gsnedders> (without taking either I can scarcely move for pain)
# [11:22] * jgraham looks that up, decides that gsnedders is unlikely to be suffering from menstrual pain
# [11:22] <gsnedders> :P
# [11:22] <gsnedders> Despite most of my friends at school concluding I am a girl, that is indeed correct.
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# [11:39] <Philip`> "Building Services has just installed anti-bacterial soap dispensers in each of the kitchens to help to reduce the risk of the vomiting viral infection."
# [11:40] <Philip`> Isn't anti-bacterial soap a bit unsuitable for stopping viruses?
# [11:41] <Dashiva> Not if it's anti-your-own-bacteria and leads to your hands falling off?
# [11:42] <Philip`> Good point
# [11:42] <jgraham> Maybe the soap smells really bad so it causes people to stay further away from each other reducing the risk of virus transmission?
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# [11:49] * Dashiva wonders why rubys is plotting to overthrow the W3C when they've already given him all the power he wants
# [11:49] <jgraham> What makes you think he's not gone power crazy?
# [11:50] <Dashiva> But if he overthrows them, he will lose the power he has because the legitimacy disappears
# [11:51] <Philip`> The power to overthrow an organisation is greater than the power you can attain by operating within that organisation
# [11:51] <jgraham> And in nay case power-crazed evil geniuses are not noted for their logical reasoning skills
# [11:52] <Dashiva> Oh, so now he's a genius too?
# [11:53] <jgraham> For example givne the choice beteen killing batman using a) a simple gun and b) placing him in the bottom of an eggtimer and slowly letting the sand run through, hich would you pick?
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# [11:54] <Dashiva> He's got bulletproof armor, so b) would at least have a non-zero chance of success
# [11:54] <Philip`> Does he have bulletproof armour on his face?
# [11:54] <jgraham> Can the bulletproof armour be removed once you have captured him to the extent that getting him into a giant eggtimer is a possibility?
# [11:55] <Philip`> The giant eggtimer seems easier than capturing him and undressing him
# [11:56] <Dashiva> Now you're assuming capture
# [11:56] <Philip`> e.g. you could drop it from a helicopter
# [11:56] <Dashiva> Or put a hostage inside, so he had to go in voluntarily
# [11:56] <Hixie> Philip`: i hate to interrupt this fascinating if strange conversation, but do you have a uri to that page with summary values?
# [11:57] <jgraham> You could do both of those things with a simple cage, remove any armour, and then finally use a traditional, reliable method of killing
# [11:58] <Philip`> Hixie: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html ? (But it's not formatted in a way that makes it easy to tell if most uses are bad, and it's not from anything even attempting to approach a sensible sample of pages)
# [11:58] <Dashiva> Then you'd have to go inside the cage
# [11:59] <jgraham> Dashiva: Expendable henchmen
# [11:59] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks
# [11:59] <Philip`> (But at least it does demonstrate of some pages which would get worse if the summary was rendered in graphical UAs)
# [11:59] <Philip`> s/of//
# [11:59] <Dashiva> jgraham: I think you should provide some justification for why the egg timer isn't good enough
# [12:00] <Philip`> s/s\/of\/\///
# [12:00] <Philip`> s/of/the existence of/
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# [12:02] <jgraham> Dashiva: It p[rovides an unacceptable risk. Egg timers are unproven technology in the killing market. Moreover it introduces a long delay between initiation of death-process and actual death. This provides an ample oppertunity to cleverly escape. Clever escapes are known to be a strong point of batman-like superheros
# [12:03] <Dashiva> We didn't become supervillains by following the rules and playing safe
# [12:03] <Philip`> On the other hand, slow killing processes mean you can film it and sell the distribution rights for a lot of money
# [12:04] <roc> I would like to make a series of very short films. Each one would be based on the opening sequence of an action movie, but showing what happen in real life.
# [12:05] <roc> For example: hero runs from enemies, hero ducks behind cover, hero breaks cover, hero gets shot in the head
# [12:06] <Philip`> These so-called "entertainment" shows are part of a plot by an evil genius to set the public's expectations in such situations, and when he captures the real superhero he will shock the world by demonstrating that his absurd plans actually work in practice when nobody believed they ever would
# [12:06] <roc> Hero notices bomb in room, hero leaps out of window, hero breaks neck
# [12:07] <jgraham> roc: If they were shot-by-shot remakes of well knowwn action movies I would watch that for sure
# [12:07] <jgraham> Oh and assuming they were sufficiently funny
# [12:07] <jgraham> But I don't see how they could fail to be
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# [12:08] <Dashiva> You'd need a good sound track
# [12:09] <Philip`> Why do movies often have the hero run across a busy road and all the cars honk and swerve, and the hero never gets run over?
# [12:10] <Dashiva> Because otherwise the hero would have to be a slow runner to let the enemy escape
# [12:11] <Hixie> it would be pretty funny to remake action movies from the start, stopping at the first point where the hero dies or is incapacitated
# [12:11] <Hixie> many wouldn't last 2 seconds
# [12:11] <Hixie> from what i hear the latest indiana jones is like that -- movie starts, character gets nuked. story ends.
# [12:11] <Hixie> along with its franchise.
# [12:12] <roc> actually he would have died several times before reaching the nuke bit
# [12:12] <Philip`> You could still tell the story in flashbacks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad movie
# [12:12] <Hixie> roc: ah. haven't seen it. good to know.
# [12:14] <Philip`> (like that Monkey Island game where you start hanging on a rope over the edge of a giant hole, and someone comes along and you spend most of the game explaining how you ended up in that predicament, and then the rope snaps)
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# [12:15] <Dashiva> Then you spend 10 years arguing about whether what happens after you fall down is part of canon or not
# [12:16] * zcorpan adds table:before { content:attr(summary); display:table-caption } to his user style sheet
# [12:21] * Philip` likes Hot Fuzz as kind of an action film parody, though it doesn't bother too much with realism
# [12:21] <didymos> Philip`, I'd say it decidedly doesn't bother with realism :)
# [12:21] <roc> LAST ACTION HERO actually attempted this
# [12:21] <roc> I appear to be the only person in the world who likes that movie
# [12:21] <Dashiva> I liked the part where the villain shoots a guy and is surprised there are no cops around after five minutes
# [12:21] <jgraham> "If you wanna be a big cop in a small town fuck off to the model village"
# [12:21] * jgraham liked Hot Fuzz too
# [12:29] <Philip`> I don't remember model villages being a feature of any other movie I've seen
# [12:29] <Philip`> particularly not for the climactic fight scene
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# [12:49] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [12:49] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [12:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [12:49] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
# [12:49] <jgraham> Right but Stevef seemed to be implying that it was a bad dataset. But mere non-randomness is not a useful criterion
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# [12:51] <Philip`> Datasets are only good or bad to the extent that they support conclusions you might draw from them
# [12:51] <jgraham> Depends what you mean "support" and "want"
# [12:52] <Philip`> and we don't have any datasets that can support precise conclusions about "average sites" or "most sites" etc (since we don't even know what those terms mean)
# [12:52] <Philip`> so we just have to avoid concluding such things
# [12:52] <Philip`> but it's easy to support conclusions like "there exists at least this number of sites with this property"
# [12:53] <Philip`> jgraham: How does it depend on what I mean by "want", when I never used that word? :-)
# [12:54] <jgraham> Ah, I misread "might" as "want to" somehow ;)
# [12:56] <Hixie> zcorpan: the heuristic for layout tables that i thought of the other day is "table has no borders"
# [12:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Have you seen the Mozilla code for this?
# [12:57] <Hixie> code for what?
# [12:57] <jgraham> layout-tables-heuristics
# [12:57] <Hixie> there is code for it?
# [12:57] <Hixie> what does it do?
# [12:58] <Philip`> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp#1029
# [12:58] <jgraham> IIRC it thinks that anything with <th> is a data table, anything with 1 column is a layout table, things with nested tables are (probably?) layout tables, things wwith no borders are probably layout tables and things with > 5 columns are data tables
# [12:58] <jgraham> It's kinda complex
# [12:59] <jgraham> And I would be against specifying anything to distinguish layout tables and data tables at this stage
# [12:59] <Hixie> yes me too
# [13:00] <Hixie> i'd be interested in seeing what the comparison was of that algorithm vs just checking for no borders anywhere in the table
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# [13:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about tables like the doctype table in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/new-design/ ?
# [13:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: speaking of the doctype table, updates regarding various opera versions are on my mental todo list. sorry about the delay.
# [13:03] <Lachy> In that whole <canvas> accessibility thread on public-html, were there any actual solid proposals for how to address the problem? So far I've only seen arguments about what the problem is and I'm just over half way through the thread.
# [13:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: perhaps I should post one, but I've been trying to avoid the thread
# [13:04] <jgraham> Lachy: I think there is some vauge suggestion of providing a DOM-accessability api interface
# [13:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: don't we have one: a tree of divs with ARIA stuff on them
# [13:04] <Philip`> Lachy: If I remember correctly, the only specific proposals were to expose the drawText strings to AT somehow, and to add a pushAnnotation() method that does something to indicate to AT what's being drawn
# [13:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Doesn't meet the bespin usecase afaict
# [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: the reason against that I can see is that the DOM may be slower than a novel tree
# [13:05] <Philip`> but those were pretty vague
# [13:05] <Philip`> and I pointed out various problems that make extracting drawText strings very difficult in typical canvas uses
# [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: for perf or for other reason?
# [13:05] <jgraham> For performace with large files
# [13:06] <Lachy> ah, yeah, I remember those vague suggestions of DOM Accessibility APIs
# [13:06] <Lachy> but I think I will ignore the rest of that thread for now and move onto something more productive.
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# [13:08] <jgraham> (AFAICT the constraint on bespin is "can't build a DOM tree for all text in the buffer", so maybe it would be possible to do better by dynamically building a DOM just for the visible text or something)
# [13:08] <roc> Hixie: I've seen a fair few data tables that just used backgrounds for styling
# [13:09] * hsivonen guesses annevankesteren.nl and html5.org are on the same failing Dreamhost VM
# [13:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: does the concept of not having an accessible tree for the whole document work for VoiceOver and Orca?
# [13:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: funky
# [13:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea
# [13:10] <Hixie> roc: oh well
# [13:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: is "funky" good or bad here?
# [13:10] <Hixie> neither :-)
# [13:11] <hsivonen> ok.
# [13:11] <Hixie> unconventional and striking
# [13:12] <Philip`> jgraham: It's not clear that they can't build a DOM tree; the problem may be more to do with layout/rendering of the DOM tree
# [13:13] <jgraham> Philip`: That's true, I guess.
# [13:15] <roc> it seems like it should be possible to do what they want with the DOM, with enough engine work
# [13:15] <roc> but there are closely related problems that aren't really possible
# [13:15] <roc> like "virtual" tree rows
# [13:16] <roc> where you have some underlying data model and you want to render complex content for items in the model
# [13:17] <roc> creating the complex content for all items in the model is arbitrarily expensive
# [13:18] <roc> so you end up creating it on the fly in clumsy, error-prone ways
# [13:18] <roc> or building some kind of custom renderer
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# [13:19] <roc> I'm not aware of anyone having developed a really great solution to this problem
# [13:20] <Hixie> http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html
# [13:20] <Hixie> well that explains a lot
# [13:21] <roc> there are lots of "tree control" widgets that provide a limited set of renderings for arbitrary models with great performance
# [13:21] <roc> and there are template solutions that provide flexible rendering with crappy performance
# [13:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: the paper is http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
# [13:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought it had already been mentioned here
# [13:23] <Hixie> possible, i don't always read everything y'all say :-)
# [13:23] <roc> seems like if we just tried a bit harder we could get some kind of template system with great performance
# [13:23] * jgraham also remembers hearing about that before
# [13:25] <Hixie> ok well i guess is should go to bed
# [13:25] <Hixie> nn
# [13:25] <roc> me too
# [13:25] <Hixie> you're on the other side of the planet!
# [13:25] <Hixie> we should NOT be in the same circadion cycle
# [13:26] <Hixie> circadian even
# [13:26] <jgraham> Hixie: I think you're the one with the weird sleep patterns :)
# [13:26] <roc> oh, you're in Europe?
# [13:26] <Hixie> jgraham: can't argue that one
# [13:26] <Hixie> roc: nah, california. we're not really that far away.
# [13:26] <roc> yeah
# [13:26] <roc> just over the water
# [13:26] <Hixie> but you're on the other side of typical maps
# [13:26] <Hixie> so as far as i'm concerned that's the Other Side of the Planet!
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# [13:27] <Hixie> anyway
# [13:27] <Hixie> nn
# [13:29] <zcorpan> ok i've now looked at about 100 pages from http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/table/summary and not found a single data table with summary (let alone a useful summary)
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# [13:47] <Lachy> Hixie, in the latest Firefox 3.1 beta, the script that shows the floating status box seems to be causing an infinite loop. I haven't tried the latest trunk yet.
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# [13:58] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [13:58] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [13:58] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [13:58] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
# [13:58] <Philip`> zcorpan: If http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt wasn't 404 then it would probably be a list of pages slightly more likely to have decent summaries
# [14:00] <Philip`> http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt
# [14:10] <jgraham> It's not quite clear why p(summary is useful|summary & table is data table) should be higher for deep content pages
# [14:10] <jgraham> Since front pages tend to get more attention from designers, consultants etc.
# [14:10] <jgraham> But maybe that is not what you meant
# [14:10] <Philip`> Designers, consultants etc are likely to suggest not putting complex data tables on your front page
# [14:10] <jgraham> Right, I agree that there may be fewer (complex) tables on those pages. I'm not sure you can infer anything about the likely quality of any summary though
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# [14:10] <Philip`> I was intending to refer to p(page contains a useful summary | page contains a summary), and I'm assuming p(summary is useful | data table) > p(summary is useful | layout table), and assuming p(data table) is lower on front pages
# [14:10] <Philip`> so looking at n front pages with a summary is likely to result in a higher proportion of layout tables, and hence a lower proportion of useful summaries, than looking at n deep content pages
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# [14:10] <jgraham> Philip`: That seems reasonable
# [14:19] * Philip` tries producing a less rubbish list of summary values
# [14:19] <Philip`> s/less/marginally less/
# [14:21] <jgraham> Philip`: How?
# [14:21] <hsivonen> whoa! a lot of summary email while I was looking away from the email app
# [14:22] <Philip`> jgraham: By not basing it on an ancient list of pages scraped from Yahoo search results
# [14:22] <Philip`> and by counting domains rather than pages
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# [14:26] <jgraham> Where are you getting the data from?
# [14:27] <Philip`> From the internets
# [14:28] <jgraham> Ah, good start. Waiting for extraterrestrial beings to communicate with earth in HTML format would have been a worse strategy, for example.
# [14:34] * Philip` wonders if jgraham was intending a more specific question
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# [14:36] <jgraham> I suppose I might have meant "how are you selecting pages on the internet to use when looking for data" or something
# [14:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: it seems most of the top few that i looked at of that list have summary="Table for formatting purposes"
# [14:37] <Philip`> jgraham: Ah - just the same dmoz.org list I've always been using
# [14:38] <jgraham> Philip`: Does dmoz.org not have roghly the same front-page bias?
# [14:38] <Philip`> jgraham: It has some front-page bias, but I don't know if it's more or less
# [14:39] <Philip`> (I would guess somewhat less than the other list, which mostly came from Yahoo search results for queries like "a" and "the")
# [14:41] <jgraham> Would a search for a term like "table below" work any better?
# [14:43] <zcorpan> from the gov list, i found 2 or 3 pages that had useful summary and the rest were either repeating a heading or were "for layout"
# [14:44] <jgraham> I guess that could introduce subtle biases since it would mean that the table was being discussed in the body of the text
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# [14:54] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary-20090226.html - it's a bit boring really
# [14:54] <Philip`> Oh, html5.org is back, I should have uploaded it there instead
# [14:56] * hsivonen wonders why cocoa apps go crazy when another cocoa app being debugged dies
# [14:56] * Philip` is getting quite good at writing pages that turn out to be valid when he first runs a validator on them
# [14:57] <hsivonen> garbage collectors are wonderful things for productivity
# [14:58] * hsivonen just finished a long hunt for a premature memory release in C++
# [14:58] <Philip`> Except when you're trying to optimise your program's memory usage and have to reverse-engineer and fight against the GC, I guess
# [14:58] <Philip`> Valgrind makes memory allocation errors much less painful :-)
# [14:59] * Philip` thinks the latest version even tells you what line of code freed a piece of memory that you're using after it was freed
# [14:59] <hsivonen> woohoo! my innerHTML setter no longer crashes
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# [15:02] <hsivonen> Did Hixie just appeal to the expertise of markp on public-html?
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# [15:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, that seemed a bit weak.
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# [15:25] <zcorpan> http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cdesc%3E%3Cmath%3E%3Cb%3E
# [15:28] <zcorpan> is the <b> escaping too far?
# [15:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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# [15:38] <hsivonen> interesting case. my impl. is per spec, though
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# [16:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: I observe that not dropping foster parented stuff on the floor when parent gone adds a third node operand to the tree operations that an HTML5 tree builder can generate
# [16:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, nsHtml5TreeOperation is bloated by one nsCOMPtr
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# [16:52] <rubys> The q element is "being considered for removal"?
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# [16:56] * gsnedders needs some way of properly sorting people's names in Python
# [16:56] <jgraham> rubys: I think that is wrong. Although I do remember arguning that <q> is mostly useless. Or was that some other element...
# [16:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: Define "properly"
# [16:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Deals with people like Anne
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# [16:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: That's not a definition
# [16:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: please let me know if you find you how Danish names are sorted by surname
# [16:58] * gsnedders headdesks
# [16:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: you could be really radical and sort by the whole name like Hixie does
# [16:58] <hsivonen> s/find you/find out/
# [16:59] <rubys> Python even has builtin support for sorting by whole names
# [16:59] <didymos> hsivonen, maybe I can be of assistance regarding the Danish names -- what are you uncertain about?
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# [17:00] <hsivonen> didymos: if you have an RFC author like Henrik Frystyk Nielsen, do you sort by N or F if your document is in English and sorted by surname?
# [17:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Wikipedia claims "Capturing this rule in a computer collation algorithm is difficult, and simple attempts will necessarily fail"
# [17:01] <gsnedders> rubys: Where?
# [17:01] * jgraham guesses rubys means sort()
# [17:01] <didymos> hsivonen, I'd sort it by the F -- but to get it exactly right, you'd have to know whether 'Frystyk' is a middle name or surname
# [17:01] <gsnedders> Oh, for whole names
# [17:01] * gsnedders is being dumb
# [17:02] <didymos> hsivonen, but in this case I'm whiling to take a guess and says it's part of his surname
# [17:02] <didymos> wiling*
# [17:02] <hsivonen> didymos: but Danes tend to have names that are between the first name and the last name but don't have the same middle name semantic that e.g. English, Finnish and Swedish middle names have, AFAIK
# [17:02] * Philip` assumes the need to "take a guess" is what makes it hard to capture the rules in a computer collation algorithm :-)
# [17:04] <didymos> Philip`, certainly, but you can often hear on a name, whether it's considered a legal middle- or surname
# [17:04] <hsivonen> didymos: i.e. a middle name that is more surnameish that second given nameish
# [17:04] <didymos> but I certainly see your point
# [17:04] <didymos> hsivonen, exactly
# [17:04] <didymos> and that's why I'm willing to guess -- Frystyk is not a Danish given name
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# [17:06] <hsivonen> didymos: should be fun for gsnedders to implement in software :-)
# [17:06] <didymos> hsivonen, yup -- I guess you would have to have the list
# [17:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why implement it in software, rather than getting a human to specify the ordering?
# [17:06] <didymos> and even then, you wouldn't be 100%
# [17:07] <gsnedders> didymos: Humans are lazy
# [17:07] <gsnedders> Philip`, rather
# [17:07] <didymos> gsnedders, :)
# [17:07] <didymos> oh well, I'm off -- good luck gsnedders and hsivonen
# [17:07] <gsnedders> It's only me
# [17:08] <hsivonen> I've dodged the issue by not trying to sort or transpose people's names in bibliography
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# [17:10] * hsivonen wonders if hCard supports surnameish but optional middle names these days
# [17:10] <hsivonen> IIRC, it didn't a couple of years ago
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# [17:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: What do you mean?
# [17:13] <Philip`> Hmm, is hobgoblin down again? It was fine a little while ago, but now it doesn't respond
# [17:14] <Philip`> Anyway: http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ now has more fonts and fewer bugs, since I finally uploaded the most recent code
# [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It supports them fine when you explicitly mark each first/middle/sur- name
# [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: my point is that e.g. Danish surnameish middle names are semantically different from English-oriented "middle names", and this semantic distinction is not captured
# [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: use case: sorting
# [17:16] <gsnedders> It's captured as much as it is in vCard :P
# [17:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just make authors mark which name-component they expect it to be sorted by
# [17:16] <jgraham> That satisfys WWLD
# [17:16] <jgraham> (or rather, in this case, WWBD)
# [17:16] <gsnedders> B?
# [17:16] <jgraham> Bibtex
# [17:16] <Philip`> L?
# [17:16] <gsnedders> Ahj
# [17:16] <Philip`> Oh
# [17:16] <gsnedders> *Ah
# [17:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: seems like a failure for semantics :-)
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# [18:02] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/04/07/570798.aspx - apparently people really like making text bold
# [18:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: with <strong>?
# [18:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Heh Save is number 2. That says something about how much users truct Word...
# [18:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, with the button that says "B" on it
# [18:04] <Philip`> jgraham: hsivonen?
# [18:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: I do that with everything though
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# [18:04] <jgraham> Er, I was going to say something to hsivonen earlier and it was still on my input line
# [18:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: Get lightroom
# [18:05] <jgraham> No save
# [18:05] * gsnedders needs to do that
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# [18:05] <jgraham> also: 100% pure awesomeness
# [18:05] <gsnedders> The issue is getting it at edu cost is such a pain and a lot of effort
# [18:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: It was pretty easy for me. Just had to scn+email my student ID
# [18:06] <gsnedders> Actually, that isn't the issue.
# [18:06] <gsnedders> The fact is I'm lazy
# [18:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't remember it being so easy when I got PS
# [18:07] <jgraham> In fact I think there might be a eb form
# [18:07] <gsnedders> eb?
# [18:07] * jgraham has to go now
# [18:07] <jgraham> web
# [18:07] * jgraham is standing up and typing
# [18:07] <gsnedders> adios
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# [18:34] <rubys> hixie: ping?
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# [19:13] <rubys> For hixie when he gets back: your name has been added to http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 ; if you disagree, please either let me know or simply remove it
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# [19:22] <annevk2> from Opera Yngve will likely be there since he's going to the IETF stuff anyway
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# [19:23] <annevk2> I might want to join some IRC discussion channel if feasible to comment on CORS, but I don't expect it to matter much
# [19:25] <gsnedders> Oh, I was going to email Yngve
# [19:25] * gsnedders is reminded
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# [21:02] * gsnedders stabs lxml's data structure
# [21:04] <gsnedders> DOM would be nice for once! :'(
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# [23:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [23:23] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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# [23:53] <fantasai> Is there a fragment identifier syntax defined for bitmap images?
# [23:53] <fantasai> I haven't found one, but I figured someone here would be more likely to know for sure.
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# [23:58] <roc> what do you mean? like <a href="foo.png#abc">?
# [23:58] * svl_ is now known as svl
# [23:59] <fantasai> roc: yeah
# Session Close: Fri Feb 27 00:00:00 2009

The end :)