/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: congrats on becoming a reviewer
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  14. # [00:41] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: thanks!
  15. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: so you doing some work on Web Inspector?
  16. # [00:42] <dglazkov> yep.
  17. # [00:43] <dglazkov> but nothing dramatic, no features
  18. # [00:43] <dglazkov> just cleaning up
  19. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> great
  20. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> it's a great tool
  21. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> I love that thing
  22. # [00:43] <dglazkov> indeed
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  25. # [00:45] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: speaking of features, I wonder if there's a bug open for implementing support for examining AppCache/manifest in Web Inspector
  26. # [00:46] <dglazkov> I don't know
  27. # [00:46] <dglazkov> sounds like a useful thing
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  29. # [00:46] <dglazkov> you should file it
  30. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, I will
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  36. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: would it be useful for the spec to suggest a convention for the file extension for application-cache manifest files/
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  38. # [01:11] <Hixie> that goes in the mime type registration bit
  39. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that's not been written yet?
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  41. # [01:16] <Hixie> not yet
  42. # [01:16] <Hixie> sometime this year
  43. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> k
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  57. # [02:29] <billyjackass> Hixie: is there any way I can programatically examine the URLs lists from an appcache manifest file?
  58. # [02:30] <billyjackass> I'm trying to figure out how to write a test to see whether the application cache is actually working as expected
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  62. # [02:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: not from within the browser, no
  63. # [02:34] <Hixie> i mean you can xhr it and parse it yourself
  64. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  65. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so lacking that, I'm wondering how one could write a test to see whether the UA actually conforms to the spec
  66. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, does Safari really not have a "Work Offline" option? FF and Opera both do
  67. # [02:39] <Hixie> why? as a tester, you know what's in the manifest
  68. # [02:39] <Hixie> just pull the plug and see if the urls keep working
  69. # [02:39] <Hixie> afk, food
  70. # [02:44] <roc> MikeSmith: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.navigator.mozIsLocallyAvailable
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  72. # [02:46] * MikeSmith looks at roc link
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  74. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> roc: ah, excellent
  75. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  82. # [02:48] <roc> we proposed that for the spec but people felt it wasn't important enough
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  89. # [02:51] <Hixie> mozIsLocallyAvailable doesn't tell you what's in the manifest
  90. # [02:51] <Hixie> it tells you what's cached
  91. # [02:52] <Hixie> and wouldn't really help with testing what's cached, since you can't trust what the browser tells you in a test :-)
  92. # [02:52] <roc> that's true, but I think it's what he actually wants
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  96. # [02:55] <roc> MikeSmith: btw for your tests you probably want to flush the main browser cache before you run the test because otherwise mozIsLocallyAvailable (or manual URI loads, for that matter) could be served out of the main cache
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  98. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> roc: OK
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  101. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fbbc3d6c9f3171023ab94d286e9c4bea80f1ef22
  102. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> tracemonkey wasn't in mozilla-central previously?
  103. # [03:16] <roc> no, it was, that's just an update from the tracemonkey repo to the mozilla-central repo
  104. # [03:16] <roc> they've continued to use a parallel repository
  105. # [03:16] <roc> the wonders of DVCS
  106. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> ah, I see
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  112. # [04:08] <jwalden> parallel repo with periodic merges is actually pretty good for not competing too hard for a place to commit patches
  113. # [04:08] <jwalden> I have five or six people to race, not fifty or a hundred
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  122. # [05:29] * gsnedders stetches
  123. # [05:30] <gsnedders> I need to stop sleeping such fucked up hours.
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  127. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> jwalden: how is success at getting patches committed to a particular repository affected by how many people use the repository?
  128. # [06:01] <jwalden> MikeSmith: someone screws up and pushes a patch that breaks the build or breaks automated tests, you have to wait for them to have taken steps to demonstrate that it's probably fixed
  129. # [06:01] <jwalden> fewer people means fewer times that has to happen
  130. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> jwalden: ah, I see
  131. # [06:02] <jwalden> not to mention fewer times you have to update a push to make sure you're changing tip and not committing new heads
  132. # [06:02] <jwalden> which Mozilla forbids, so if two people try at once, one will succeed and the other will have to modify the patch to sit atop the first one
  133. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> yeah, understood
  134. # [06:03] <jwalden> MikeSmith: I assume a server-side script to count times-loaded is a no-go for manifest testing?
  135. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> jwalden: It would be fine I guess. but I do really that Web developers will also end up wanting some access to it from some client-side interface
  136. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> do really think
  137. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> jwalden: as far as the part about breaking builds and tests, you guys really seem to do a lot of reverting due to that
  138. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> it seems like commits get reverted just about as often as they don7t
  139. # [06:05] <jwalden> not quite that bad, but our tests are not quite as reliable as they should be
  140. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> OK
  141. # [06:06] <jwalden> but people do make changes which break tests in will-always-happen ways
  142. # [06:06] <jwalden> not often, but it's not quite rare, either
  143. # [06:07] <roc> that's the point of having a lot of tests
  144. # [06:07] <roc> although it's better if you can run the tests locally, that's not always feasible
  145. # [06:07] <roc> getting more feasible since we'll have try-servers running tests soon
  146. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> yeah, the try-server thing is great
  147. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> I notice that's what hsivonen is using for his parser work
  148. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> I guess he's got the tests worked into that
  149. # [06:09] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  150. # [06:09] <roc> jwalden: we have a secret weapon against random test failures in the works ... but I'll let cpearce brag about it when it's ready
  151. # [06:09] <jwalden> gsnedders: wait for college, particularly if you're in a dorm that's not full of buckle-down-and-study people :-)
  152. # [06:10] <jwalden> roc: that's just mean, telling but not telling me
  153. # [06:10] <roc> yeah it is
  154. # [06:10] * jwalden wants ops in some shared channel to enact violence upon roc
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  157. # [06:18] <gsnedders> Compare: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/Overview.out.out.html and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-namespace/
  158. # [06:20] <gsnedders> (The former has never been through the module post-processor, blatantly)
  159. # [06:25] <sayrer> somehow I suspect roc's weapon concerns replay
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  180. # [08:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: actually, I don't have tests integrated to try server pushes. The builds crash on try server and I think I know the stack of the crash but I have no idea how to fix it.
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  182. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the builds crash right away at some smoke-testing stage?
  183. # [08:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right.
  184. # [08:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can't reproduce on Mac. I can on Linux.
  185. # [08:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: on Linux, the first run after a fresh compile (even with and old profile) crashes
  186. # [08:07] <hsivonen> the second run doesn't
  187. # [08:07] <hsivonen> it's weird
  188. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> heh
  189. # [08:08] <hsivonen> moreover, the stack trace doesn't show local variables for the interesting bits
  190. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> ah
  191. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> well, makes it kind of hard to debug I guess
  192. # [08:08] <hsivonen> but it's related to freeing interned strings that are alive through the process lifetime
  193. # [08:09] <hsivonen> my guess is that there's a bug when the same string has been interned from two atom tables, although I've been told that's OK
  194. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: would that be something a lint checker or some other kind of static analysis thing might find for you?
  195. # [08:10] <hsivonen> I think that would be unlikely.
  196. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> OK
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  231. # [09:36] <hsivonen> grr. read-only google spreadsheets inhibits my ability to copy text
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  258. # [11:25] * Lachy wonders how many people, out of those arguing for better historical date and alternative calendar support in the <time> element, would actually make use of such historical dates and alternative calendars themselves.
  259. # [11:26] <Lachy> I suspect this is another case of people arguing to support use cases for other people, when those other people aren't really calling for such use cases to be addressed by HTML
  260. # [11:31] * Quits: Mau`werk (n=ano@89.184.185.248) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  261. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: and more importantly, who'd actually consume the data without a prior bilateral agreement
  262. # [11:33] <Lachy> indeed
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  265. # [11:34] <Lachy> the only potentially compelling use cases I've seen in that thread relate to imprecise dates, like YYYY or YYYY-MM.
  266. # [11:34] <Lachy> although, they still need more investigation into the problems being solved
  267. # [11:39] <hsivonen> that would only make approximate sense for Julian years
  268. # [11:39] <hsivonen> but would still distriminate against various calendars still in religious use
  269. # [11:40] * Joins: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com)
  270. # [11:41] <Lachy> what? The use cases I was referring to for imprecise dates have nothing to do with julian dates
  271. # [11:41] <Lachy> nor any other non-Gregorian calendars
  272. # [11:42] <roc> just use timestamps which are unlimited-precision floating point numbers of seconds since the Unix epoch, with negative values allowed
  273. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: oh ok.
  274. # [11:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  275. # [11:48] <hsivonen> s/distriminate/discriminate/
  276. # [11:52] <Philip`> roc: Unlimited precision doesn't help when I want to represent the moment precisely a third of a second after the epoch
  277. # [11:53] <roc> will you settle for rational numbers or do we need full support for transcendentals?
  278. # [11:54] <annevk5> wasn't <time> also meant to replace class=date kind of stuff? e.g. as styling hook
  279. # [11:54] <annevk5> in that case it sort of makes sense to allow just years or months
  280. # [11:55] <Philip`> roc: It's possible that we'll be invaded by aliens whose calendar systems use multiples of pi seconds, so we'd better make sure HTML can cope with that use case
  281. # [11:55] <Philip`> or perhaps we should just use RDFa for it
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  296. # [13:19] <hsivonen> looking at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6684 , could just fix text/* in non-SMTP protocols already?
  297. # [13:23] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.191.50.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  298. # [13:30] * felix_da_catz is now known as felix-da-catz_zz
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  300. # [13:43] <jgraham> Crazy telecoms related things number #3456 we just got PAYG mobile broadband with 3 to fill in the gap before we can convince someone to give us proper useful broadband. To buy time you have to log onto the website. To log on to the website you need a password. They supply the password by SMS. To get the SMS you need either a 3G Phone or a Windows laptop
  301. # [13:43] <jgraham> because even though they have a OS X version of the client software it doesn't support the SMS feature
  302. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I recommend a shotgun.
  303. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> (for you visit to the headquarters to discuss the issue)
  304. # [13:45] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-218-22.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  305. # [13:45] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Oh, I thought you were suggesting suicide
  306. # [13:46] <jgraham> (Anyway their uselessness pales into comparison compared with tele2 who, two whole months after we first asked for a broadband connection and were told 2-3 weeks, finally decided that we had not been in the country for long enough and so were not entitled to their services)
  307. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> heh
  308. # [13:47] <hsivonen> has anyone tested if nodeName returning in upper case in WebKit for HTML elements is a characteristic of the node itself or its owner document?
  309. # [13:47] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  310. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: welcome to Scandinavia
  311. # [13:47] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Indeed
  312. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> World's Best Customer Service
  313. # [13:48] * hsivonen had a pretty good experience with getting IP connectivity to a new apartment
  314. # [13:48] <hsivonen> right on time
  315. # [13:48] <hsivonen> but then, it wasn't ADSL
  316. # [13:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: What was it?
  317. # [13:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't know. Could be fiber optic. The pipe that comes into the apartement is 100 M Ethernet
  318. # [13:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: How much does that cost?
  319. # [13:51] <hsivonen> we only pay for 10/10 M, which is 32.90 euros per month. 100/10 M would be 42.90 euros per month
  320. # [13:51] <hsivonen> (incl. VAT)
  321. # [13:52] <jgraham> That sounds roughly similar to Sweden. I think the UK is quite a bit cheaper (or can be)
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  324. # [14:02] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like HTML 5 defines the case folding to be dependent on the HTML documentedness of the document and not a property of the element nodes themselves...
  325. # [14:05] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  326. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: you calling in to widgets call?
  327. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> and any clues where is marcos?
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  329. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: should script-inserted base attribute in the XML namespace be ignored in HTML documents?
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  333. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Do we want to make createElement in XML documents whose document object implements the HTMLDocument interface create elements in the XHTML namespace?
  334. # [14:29] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes
  335. # [14:29] <Lachy> well, maybe
  336. # [14:30] <Lachy> what do browsers do?
  337. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: I haven't written a test case, I have only read browser source :-)
  338. # [14:31] <hsivonen> but source says yes
  339. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Gecko's source, that is
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  343. # [14:34] * hsivonen sees http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsDocument.cpp#6057
  344. # [14:35] <Lachy> hsivonen, document.createElement("foo").namespaceURI returns the XHTML namespace in an XHTML document.
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  346. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: excellent. thanks
  347. # [14:37] <Lachy> for an SVG document, Opera returns the SVG namespace, but Gecko and WebKit return the XHTML namespace still
  348. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: Web DOM Core doesn't have renameNode...
  349. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: but HTML 5 places a requirement on its behavior
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  353. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Does SetAttributeNode really lower case the name in existing browsers?
  354. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Shouldn't instead the attribute node creator method do the lower casing?
  355. # [14:54] * felix-da-catz_zz is now known as felix_da_catz
  356. # [14:54] * hsivonen files a spec bug
  357. # [14:58] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  358. # [14:58] <JohnResig> Lachy: what's up
  359. # [14:58] <Lachy> JohnResig, I just noticed that the selectors api test suite doesn't contain any tests for the namespace selectors "|foo" and "*|foo", which need to be supported cause they don't need to be resolved
  360. # [14:59] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  361. # [14:59] <JohnResig> Lachy: so the should be handled as if they were the same as "foo", correct?
  362. # [15:00] <Lachy> "|foo" matches elements in no namesace. i.e. the element created by document.createElementNS("", "foo");
  363. # [15:00] <JohnResig> hmm
  364. # [15:00] <Lachy> "*|foo" should match a foo element in any namespace
  365. # [15:01] <Lachy> for "|foo", you would have to test it by creating elements with createElementNS. You can't rely on any elements in an HTML document being in no namespace, since browsers (and HTML5) say to use the XHTML namespace
  366. # [15:03] <Lachy> I'll send an email about this to public-webapps as a reminder for this to be added when you have time
  367. # [15:03] <JohnResig> Lachy: ok, thanks
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  373. # [15:13] <Lachy> JohnResig, I just made some quick demos and it looks like WebKit fails the "|p" test. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/27
  374. # [15:13] <Lachy> both Opera and Firefox pass that oen
  375. # [15:13] <Lachy> *one
  376. # [15:13] <Lachy> IE8 will fail because it doesn't support the namespace syntax
  377. # [15:14] <JohnResig> Lachy: ok, definitely post it to the list then, because I'm cautious of landing changes that'll cause 100%-passing regressions (people get grumpy)
  378. # [15:14] <JohnResig> it seems painless enough to land, though
  379. # [15:15] <Lachy> JohnResig, the whole point of a test suite is to find bugs. If we can find bugs in browsers that currently pass 100%, that's even better.
  380. # [15:16] <JohnResig> Lachy: absolutely - but I don't want the burdern of notifying and arguing with the vendors to be on me - that should be on the spec people (you)
  381. # [15:16] <JohnResig> since my only rebuttle will be "Well, Lachy told me to add it."
  382. # [15:16] <Lachy> good
  383. # [15:17] <JohnResig> just let them know on the list and I'll land it no problem
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  408. # [17:15] <annevk> so when of the Python devs is here and when I asked him about the annoyance that the internal encoding can be set at compile time he admitted it was a mistake and that they should have fixed it to UTF-32
  409. # [17:15] <annevk> a small battle ensued
  410. # [17:16] <annevk> s/so when/so one/
  411. # [17:16] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-44.dynamic.amis.net) (Client Quit)
  412. # [17:16] <smedero> �
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  414. # [17:16] <Dashiva> utf-32? heh
  415. # [17:17] <annevk> PHP6 with ETA "unknown" will be fixed to UTF-16 according to Rasmus (also here)
  416. # [17:18] <Lachy> why would anyone want to use UTF-32 for anything?!
  417. # [17:18] <Philip`> Because it's easy and works
  418. # [17:18] <Philip`> unlike everything else
  419. # [17:18] <Dashiva> If you think space is cheap and astral characters are important, I suppose
  420. # [17:19] <Lachy> but it's so inefficient with space, and UTF-16 is only mildly less efficient with non-BMP characters
  421. # [17:19] <Philip`> Lachy: With UTF-16 you can't do constant-time extraction of substrings
  422. # [17:19] <gsnedders> PHP6 just uses UTF-16 because it's what ICU uses
  423. # [17:19] <Philip`> (because you've got to scan the whole string to count characters)
  424. # [17:20] <Philip`> If you care so much about performance that a mere doubling of string sizes is significant, you shouldn't be using Python
  425. # [17:21] <annevk> gsnedders, he might have mentioned that, yes :)
  426. # [17:22] <Lachy> Philip`, that's why python shouldn't bother with UTF-32 for the small performance benefit it brings in comparisson with its overall performance
  427. # [17:23] <Philip`> Lachy: It's much more than a small performance benefit when you're e.g. extracting the millionth character from a string, and it can read the four-millionth byte instead of scanning through the whole string
  428. # [17:23] <jgraham> Lachy: Do you have evidence that most programs consume a significant amount of their memory in string types?
  429. # [17:24] <Lachy> no
  430. # [17:24] <jgraham> UTF-32 is much /much/ easier than UTF-16 for non-BMP characters
  431. # [17:24] <Lachy> Philip`, jgraham, so are you arguing that using UTF-32 for python is a good thing?
  432. # [17:25] <jgraham> Lachy: If the choice is between the UCS2 and UCS4 code currently in Python, UCS4 wins every time
  433. # [17:25] <Philip`> Lachy: It seems a better thing than the alternatives
  434. # [17:25] * annevk notes that what Python does depends on how you compile it and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future in case that wasn't clear
  435. # [17:25] <jgraham> (the 2-byte string code is not quite UTF-16)
  436. # [17:26] <jgraham> (Or at least python doesn't really handle non-BMP characters well)
  437. # [17:26] <gsnedders> (Guido said on the dev mailing list that anywhere it wasn't UTF-16 was a bug)
  438. # [17:26] <gsnedders> (But it presents non-BMP characters to interpreted code in a whacky way (i.e., as surrogates))
  439. # [17:28] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Client Quit)
  440. # [17:28] <Lachy> how many people actually deal with astral characters in python programs?
  441. # [17:28] * jgraham raises a hand
  442. # [17:28] * gsnedders raises a hand
  443. # [17:29] <Lachy> what do you use them for?
  444. # [17:29] <jgraham> Lachy: html5lib
  445. # [17:29] * Philip` raises a hand, complete with half an arm and some severed tendons
  446. # [17:29] <gsnedders> For stripping any character not valid in ifragment in Anolis when creating IDs
  447. # [17:29] <jgraham> Also some thing I did for parsing the UCD
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  449. # [17:31] <annevk> http://www.christopherschmitt.com/2009/03/12/convert-xhtml-web-pages-to-html5/ has some amusing terminology
  450. # [17:32] <annevk> and untidying is fun too
  451. # [17:32] * jgraham wonders why he can't reproduce a bug in the python unicode support, realises he is using a UCS4 build
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  457. # [18:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Be careful about suggesting deferring to self-proclaimed date/time experts who wrote ISO8601, because the same argument could apply to things like RDF :-p
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  475. # [18:56] <ap> annevk: does the change event bubble in IE? I didn't test myself, but saw a blog post saying that it didn't (referenced in the bug)
  476. # [18:57] <annevk> dunno, but the testcase works in Opera (and reportedly Firefox)
  477. # [18:57] <annevk> maybe Hixie based the spec on IE?
  478. # [18:57] <zcorpan> Lachy: please have both "" and null in the test suite :)
  479. # [18:57] <ap> annevk: that usually makes sense ;)
  480. # [18:57] <annevk> I suppose
  481. # [18:58] * annevk launches IE6
  482. # [18:58] <ap> zcorpan: that's a CSS Selectors test, not a DOM 3 one! :)
  483. # [18:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  484. # [18:58] <ap> annevk: I'm also puzzled by the requirement to fire the event asynchronously (post a task to fire a simpl event)
  485. # [18:59] <gsnedders> :P
  486. # [18:59] <annevk> I'm mostly mystified with the event source thing so I can't help you there
  487. # [18:59] <annevk> in IE6 the onchange handler does not trigger
  488. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: There is a difference between saying that use-cases they didn't deal with we don't have to compared with we have to cope with all their use-cases.
  489. # [19:00] <annevk> but I've no idea if that means it doesn't do bubbling
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  492. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Damn chaals writes long emails at times.
  493. # [19:00] <ap> annevk: the test at <http://www.johnvey.com/blog/2007/07/ie-does-not-bubble-form-select-element-onchange-events> uses attachEvent, so it apparently doesn't bubble
  494. # [19:01] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.83)
  495. # [19:02] <annevk> ap, it seems that the more useful thing to do is to bubble though
  496. # [19:02] <zcorpan> ap: yeah, true
  497. # [19:02] <annevk> ap, and IE can fix bugs
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  499. # [19:03] <annevk> I guess you can use capture listeners instead, but that's cumbersome
  500. # [19:05] <zcorpan> so firefox and webkit don't support 'copy' in canvas globalCompositeOperation
  501. # [19:05] <annevk> (and also doesn't work in IE :p)
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  504. # [19:08] <Philip`> zcorpan: I think they do
  505. # [19:09] <Philip`> (modulo certain bugs that are not directly related to 'copy')
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  526. # [19:56] <gsnedders> What's controversial about bb?
  527. # [19:57] <annevk> the name!
  528. # [19:57] <Philip`> The fact that it's a crazy idea
  529. # [19:58] <smedero> didn't Philip` find a noticeable occurrence of people mistyping b as bb.
  530. # [19:58] <gsnedders> smedero: I dunno. Ask Philip`.
  531. # [19:58] <Philip`> It's like a script API but made much harder to use by not actually being a script API
  532. # [19:59] * Parts: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  533. # [19:59] <Philip`> Hmm, a load of people use <bb:menu> elements
  534. # [19:59] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  535. # [20:00] <gsnedders> LOL
  536. # [20:00] <gsnedders> "to Pillar and Hedral for their ideas and support."
  537. # [20:00] * gsnedders expects they gave Hixie lots of ideas :P
  538. # [20:00] <Philip`> There do exist people who typo <b> as <bb>, but not a huge number
  539. # [20:01] <Philip`> and hopefully <bb> is specced so it does nothing if it's not got any interesting attributes
  540. # [20:02] <smedero> http://menumachine.com/kb/64 suggest that <bb:menu> is some sort of GoLive plugin?
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  542. # [20:08] * jgraham has somewhat crappy home internet at last
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  563. # [21:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: w00t! crappy intarwebs!
  564. # [21:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: How on earth did you get that photo?
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  567. # [21:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: Multiple photos overlayed
  568. # [21:36] <gsnedders> I was guessing that.
  569. # [21:37] <jgraham> Macro lens wih the minimum depth of field
  570. # [21:37] <jgraham> I really want to do it in a way that looks seamless
  571. # [21:39] <jgraham> And SSH seems to be really bad on this connection
  572. # [21:42] <Philip`> jgraham: You could make it seamless by taking a single photo :-)
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  579. # [21:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes, if I had a large format camera :)
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  604. # Session Close: Fri Mar 13 00:00:01 2009

The end :)