/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Dunno
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> :)
  5. # [00:00] <gsnedders> You told me my school work was more important, so I don't have time to look it up
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> oh well
  7. # [00:00] <gsnedders> hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/
  8. # [00:00] <gsnedders> There's a gzip/bz2 link there
  9. # [00:00] <gsnedders> I think
  10. # [00:00] <Hixie> i'll just wait for the site to be up again
  11. # [00:01] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  12. # [00:02] <gsnedders> Speak of the devil, and he vanishes.
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> i'm having a discussion with a disillusioned former html5 contributor on reddit
  14. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Linky!
  15. # [00:04] * gsnedders changes virtual desktop back to work
  16. # [00:05] <Hixie> quite unlike some of the disillusioned people i deal with at the w3c, who think html5 is doomed because it pays too much attention to web browsers, this individual thinks that we don't listen _enough_ to browser vendors
  17. # [00:05] <Hixie> specifically, that there are too many places where microsoft, nokia, and other browser vendors don't agree with each other yet
  18. # [00:05] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  19. # [00:05] <Hixie> i'm going to take it as a good sign that the complaints i get about html5 are mostly mutually contradictory
  20. # [00:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: i pasted the link in earlier
  21. # [00:06] <gsnedders> I don't reload links you link earlier!
  22. # [00:06] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  23. # [00:06] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@130.194.73.110)
  24. # [00:07] <Hixie> you can also get to it by looking at my user page on reddit :-P
  25. # [00:07] <gsnedders> I don't look at that either!
  26. # [00:07] <Hixie> i thought you said you were good at procrastination!
  27. # [00:07] <Hixie> what happened!
  28. # [00:07] <Hixie> i had such high hopes for you
  29. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Oh, sure, but I don't procrastinate by stalking you
  30. # [00:07] <gsnedders> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/4288 reveals who I do stalk
  31. # [00:07] * gsnedders moves the bin a bit
  32. # [00:12] * gsnedders yawns
  33. # [00:12] * gsnedders slaps self
  34. # [00:16] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  35. # [00:17] <Hixie> damnit, i just spent the last 10 minutes looking at burntelectrons
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> only your twitter stopped me
  37. # [00:17] <gsnedders> Touché.
  38. # [00:18] <gsnedders> I realized I had procrastinating from tweeting that, as I had it typed up on Twitter.com, but saw a link on someone else's tweet, followed that, and didn't submit it at the time.
  39. # [00:18] <Hixie> we have issues
  40. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Yeah, seriously.
  41. # [00:21] <annevk2> lol, that quote is funny
  42. # [00:21] <annevk2> must have been late when I posted that
  43. # [00:25] * gsnedders yawns loudly
  44. # [00:26] * gsnedders should go to bed
  45. # [00:26] <gsnedders> I procrastinate less in the morning
  46. # [00:26] <gsnedders> (less being the vital word)
  47. # [00:28] <Philip`> Mornings are for sleeping and for playing TF2
  48. # [00:28] <Philip`> Afternoons are for procrastinating
  49. # [00:28] <Philip`> Evenings are for doing the work that I meant to do during the day
  50. # [00:28] <Philip`> Nights are for playing more TF2 and then sleeping
  51. # [00:29] <Philip`> At least that's how my life seems to work
  52. # [00:30] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  53. # [00:33] <annevk2> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3577 lol
  54. # [00:34] <Hixie> is there another instance of pimpmyspec.net anywhere, btw?
  55. # [00:34] <Hixie> if there were two instances i could use whichever one finished first
  56. # [00:34] <annevk2> the quuz.org one is not up to date
  57. # [00:35] <gsnedders> Not much has changed, though :P
  58. # [00:35] <annevk2> Hixie, if what gsnedders says is true you can try http://anolis.quuz.org/
  59. # [00:36] <Hixie> i think there are enough changes that the output is notably different
  60. # [00:36] <Hixie> spacing and stuff like that
  61. # [00:36] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-d1e17d9bf5279ebc)
  62. # [00:36] * gsnedders wonders how much effort it'd be to get pms running on gsnedders.html5.org
  63. # [00:37] <annevk2> I can update anolis.quuz.org if someone tells me what files to changes
  64. # [00:37] <annevk2> s/changes/change/
  65. # [00:37] * gsnedders finds PMS has a load of dependancies and decides not to
  66. # [00:48] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  67. # [00:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: What's the working-copy URL?
  68. # [00:50] <gsnedders> working-copy?
  69. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Or rather, the file to gen from?
  70. # [00:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: Do you not have anything more important to do than work on the spec-generation system? :-p
  71. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: No
  72. # [00:52] * Philip` is currently busy failing to finish writing a paper before tomorrow
  73. # [00:53] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/pms/ throws errors when you try and gen a spec
  74. # [00:53] <gsnedders> oh well
  75. # [00:53] <Hixie> i concatenate header-whatwg and working-copy
  76. # [01:00] * gsnedders has no idea why it is failing on html5, and gives up
  77. # [01:01] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.6)
  78. # [01:02] * gsnedders gives up, and goes to bed
  79. # [01:02] <gsnedders> See you in a few hours
  80. # [01:04] * Hixie tries to understand the videos microsoft put up of their speed tests
  81. # [01:04] <Hixie> i don't understand how they decide when to stop their stopwatch
  82. # [01:06] * Joins: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279277918.dsl.bell.ca)
  83. # [01:06] * Quits: davidb (n=davidb@bas4-toronto06-1279277918.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit)
  84. # [01:07] * Philip` vaguely remembers reading that it was when the progress bar stopped
  85. # [01:07] <Hixie> it's demonstrably not the case
  86. # [01:08] <annevk2> i thought it was when the status bar or something said "done"
  87. # [01:09] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/flexewebs/statuses/1345419976 followed by http://twitter.com/flexewebs/statuses/1345479096 fail
  88. # [01:13] * Philip` hasn't even read the spec once :-(
  89. # [01:22] * Quits: john_fallows (n=j_r_fall@adsl-75-61-87-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  90. # [01:22] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@216.132.92.66)
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  92. # [01:28] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  93. # [01:29] <annevk2> "In case (3), you definitely need also one of the following (and can use these in other cases):" well I disagree right there...
  94. # [01:30] <annevk2> but then threads with Larry involved tend not to be that constructive so I'll let someone else bite :)
  95. # [01:32] * Parts: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
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  99. # [01:35] <annevk2> oh, it's on www-tag
  100. # [01:35] <annevk2> ok, i'll bite
  101. # [01:36] * Joins: Ritz (n=ritz@S010600183f550ae0.cg.shawcable.net)
  102. # [01:36] * Ritz is now known as Niictar
  103. # [01:37] * Parts: Niictar (n=ritz@S010600183f550ae0.cg.shawcable.net)
  104. # [01:42] * Joins: Niictar (n=ritz@S010600183f550ae0.cg.shawcable.net)
  105. # [01:43] <Niictar> Anyone alive?
  106. # [01:44] <annevk2> for a few more minutes
  107. # [01:44] <Niictar> Right on
  108. # [01:44] <Niictar> Not that I have a lot to say. But I was curious if this place was going to end up being super quiet all the time like the forum seems to be
  109. # [01:45] <Philip`> Niictar: See the left column of http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
  110. # [01:45] <Niictar> Kay
  111. # [01:45] <Philip`> Usually there's quite a lot of activity
  112. # [01:46] <Philip`> Not necessarily productive activity, but things do get said :-)
  113. # [01:46] <Niictar> Haha
  114. # [01:47] <annevk2> the mailing list and IRC are the main forms of communication
  115. # [01:47] <annevk2> the forums are there for people who don't like mailing lists but they do sort of take a back seat
  116. # [01:48] <Niictar> Ok. Well, the mailing list has been filled with nothing but arguments about <time>, and yea, the forums are super slow.
  117. # [01:48] <Niictar> And I like IRC, so that's all good for me, then
  118. # [01:49] <annevk2> oh yeah, you need to learn about deleting email following the list :p
  119. # [01:50] <Philip`> Much of the discussion on IRC about the <time> topic has been incredulity at the discussions on the mailing list
  120. # [01:50] <Niictar> Heh, maybe all the space gmail gives me will be put to good use, now :P
  121. # [01:50] <Philip`> so this is a relatively safe place if you're not terribly interested in the details of the <time> discussion
  122. # [01:53] * annevk2 -> bed
  123. # [01:55] <Niictar> So, anyway, I was looking up HTML 5 on Twitter today and it was flooded with news about the iPhone supporting the <video> element
  124. # [01:55] <Niictar> But it was just a lot of people saying so without any references
  125. # [01:55] <Niictar> And Google has nothing on it yet
  126. # [01:55] <Niictar> Anyone know anything about this yet?
  127. # [01:56] <olliej> Niictar: i believe iphone 3 is meant to support it
  128. # [01:56] <Niictar> Err, the 3.0 OS for the iPhone to be exact
  129. # [01:56] <olliej> Niictar: desktop safari has supported <video> and <audio> since 3.1 early last year
  130. # [01:57] <Niictar> I can't make the demo on WHATWG work with my version of Safari 4 for Windows, though
  131. # [01:57] <Niictar> And I read Firefox 3.1 supported it, too, but I can't make that one work either
  132. # [01:58] <Niictar> I was thinking it was cause I was using the wrong video format (which I understand still hasn't been finalized?), but I would have thought that the demo Hixie put up on whatwg.org would work
  133. # [01:58] <olliej> I think there were some changes to the <video> spec that we only fixed in webkit trunk in the last week or so
  134. # [01:59] <Niictar> Ah
  135. # [01:59] <olliej> Niictar: what video format are you using
  136. # [01:59] <Hixie> the demo on whatwg.org uses ogg theora
  137. # [01:59] <olliej> Niictar: the changes are primarily playback events, rather than anything fundamental
  138. # [01:59] <Niictar> Erm, well, the whatwg site uses .ogg. And then I was trying .mp4, too
  139. # [01:59] <Hixie> apple only support h.264 last i heard
  140. # [01:59] <olliej> Hixie: broadly speaking we support anything that quicktime can play i believe
  141. # [01:59] <olliej> Hixie: eg. installing the theora codecs will work
  142. # [02:00] <olliej> Hixie: ironic that you're not using a standard video format :D
  143. # [02:00] * olliej hides
  144. # [02:00] <Niictar> Ooh, do I need to install codecs on top of making sure I am using a browser that supports <video>?
  145. # [02:00] <olliej> Niictar: not for mp4 on mac
  146. # [02:00] <olliej> err
  147. # [02:00] <olliej> on safari
  148. # [02:00] <Hixie> olliej: i was trying to demo it in firefox, so using h.264 would have been hard. :-)
  149. # [02:00] <olliej> mac or windows
  150. # [02:01] <olliej> Niictar: ah, what platform are you on? mac or windows?
  151. # [02:01] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  152. # [02:01] <Niictar> This one is Safari 4 on Vista. Or anything so far is on Vista. I haven't tried it on Windows 7 or the Macs at work yet
  153. # [02:01] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  154. # [02:01] <olliej> Niictar: did you install quicktime with safari?
  155. # [02:01] <Niictar> No
  156. # [02:01] <olliej> Niictar: it's used for video support
  157. # [02:02] <olliej> without it safari isn't going to be playing back anything :D
  158. # [02:02] <Niictar> Ha, I guess that one figures
  159. # [02:02] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.110.251)
  160. # [02:02] <Niictar> Ok, well, I will try that later
  161. # [02:02] <Niictar> <video> has a fallback like <canvas> right?
  162. # [02:02] <olliej> Niictar: it would be silly for safari to have its own copy of QT
  163. # [02:02] <olliej> Niictar: yup
  164. # [02:03] <Niictar> Well, I didn't know QT was required for support for video :P
  165. # [02:03] <olliej> Niictar: yeah, it kind of sucks
  166. # [02:04] * olliej imagines people would just complain if qt wasn't optional however
  167. # [02:04] <olliej> oh well
  168. # [02:04] <olliej> back to fixing finally
  169. # [02:04] <olliej> i hate finally
  170. # [02:05] <Niictar> So, for the iPhone... could I do something like <video src="video.mov"><embed id="VideoPlayback" src="someFlashFile" style="width:344px;height:285px;" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" /></video>
  171. # [02:05] <Niictar> ?
  172. # [02:05] <Niictar> (in theory)
  173. # [02:05] <olliej> that should do it
  174. # [02:05] <olliej> it should work in safari
  175. # [02:05] <olliej> on the desktop as well
  176. # [02:05] <olliej> ooh
  177. # [02:05] <olliej> actually
  178. # [02:06] <olliej> Niictar: can you see if that falls back correctly in your safari install?
  179. # [02:06] <olliej> Niictar: logically we should fall back if qt isn't available
  180. # [02:06] <Niictar> It doesn't, actually. My page is just blank. ...I think.
  181. # [02:06] <olliej> but i'm not sure
  182. # [02:06] <Niictar> Double checking
  183. # [02:06] <olliej> Niictar: could you file a bug at http://bugs.webkit.org ?
  184. # [02:07] <Niictar> Blank page
  185. # [02:07] <Niictar> Oui
  186. # [02:07] <Niictar> Err, I have to register
  187. # [02:07] <Niictar> Do I have to register?
  188. # [02:07] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  189. # [02:08] <olliej> Niictar: yes, because bugzilla emails you when we update the bug
  190. # [02:08] <olliej> Niictar: and we need the bug reporter to verify that we've fixed the bug
  191. # [02:08] <olliej> when we think we've fixed it
  192. # [02:08] <Niictar> Right
  193. # [02:08] <Niictar> Now, a caveat (sp?)
  194. # [02:08] <Niictar> I have some sort of "QT Lite" installed
  195. # [02:09] <olliej> hmmm
  196. # [02:09] <olliej> file anyway
  197. # [02:09] <Niictar> Kay
  198. # [02:09] <olliej> someone will eventually verify the bug exists (or not) and then it will be fixed
  199. # [02:09] <olliej> and the world will be a better place
  200. # [02:10] <Niictar> Fair enough
  201. # [02:10] <Niictar> And now to do all the fun form filling stuff
  202. # [02:11] <Niictar> Priority?
  203. # [02:11] <olliej> Niictar: default will do
  204. # [02:12] <Niictar> Component?
  205. # [02:12] <olliej> webcore
  206. # [02:12] <olliej> ah
  207. # [02:12] <Niictar> Webcore Misc. then
  208. # [02:12] <olliej> sorry
  209. # [02:12] <olliej> yeah
  210. # [02:12] <olliej> that will do
  211. # [02:12] <olliej> actually
  212. # [02:13] <olliej> layout and rendering
  213. # [02:13] <olliej> Niictar: sorry
  214. # [02:13] <Niictar> Makes sense
  215. # [02:13] <Niictar> Do I need to upload the test html file?
  216. # [02:13] <Niictar> ie host it somewhere
  217. # [02:14] <olliej> upload or host if hosting is easier
  218. # [02:14] <Niictar> Ok
  219. # [02:17] * gavin___ is now known as gavin
  220. # [02:18] <Niictar> It falls back nicely in Firefox
  221. # [02:19] <Niictar> http://html5.ca/video.html if you want to try it now that I have it up
  222. # [02:19] <Niictar> Almost done with the bug report
  223. # [02:20] <roc> Niictar: that doesn't work for me, firefox.ogv is 404?
  224. # [02:21] <Niictar> I pulled it from http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/video.html oops
  225. # [02:21] <roc> olliej: sorry, but a patent-encumbered pay-to-play "standard" isn't worth much
  226. # [02:21] <Niictar> I don't know of any other particular video file that "should" work
  227. # [02:21] <olliej> roc: vs. a poor quality potentially patent encumbered non-standard?
  228. # [02:22] <olliej> roc: :D
  229. # [02:22] <olliej> roc: i realise a solution is needed
  230. # [02:22] <roc> there's a published spec
  231. # [02:22] <roc> it doesn't have an ISO stamp I guess
  232. # [02:22] <roc> the quality's not bad and getting better
  233. # [02:22] <Hixie> i don't think theora is a "non-standard"
  234. # [02:22] <roc> we've done our legal analysis
  235. # [02:22] <olliej> roc: it also doesn't have hardware acceleration
  236. # [02:23] <Niictar> Any other sources I could grab for that video element?
  237. # [02:23] <roc> HW acceleration on mobile is a problem yeah
  238. # [02:23] <Hixie> but the video people i speak to do think its quality leaves something to be desired
  239. # [02:23] <olliej> roc: the reality is that neither h264 nor theora is a real "solution"
  240. # [02:24] <olliej> roc: which is sucky
  241. # [02:24] <roc> well
  242. # [02:24] <roc> Theora solves a lot of use cases
  243. # [02:24] <olliej> so does h264
  244. # [02:24] <roc> H.264 doesn't solve anything for those of us who care about open source implementations
  245. # [02:25] <olliej> theora doesn't solve anything for those who want hw acceleration, etc
  246. # [02:25] <Hixie> i agree that 264's licensing makes it a non-option unless that is addressed
  247. # [02:25] <roc> that's only an issue on mobile really
  248. # [02:25] * jcranmer looks at in re Bilski
  249. # [02:25] <olliej> roc: neither works for everyone
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  251. # [02:26] <roc> and it's only an issue on mobile because the device vendors currently choose to bake in H.264 and nothing else
  252. # [02:26] <roc> give us some programmability and things can change
  253. # [02:27] <Philip`> Hmm, phones which can automatically reprogram their DSPs for new video codecs...
  254. # [02:27] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@216.132.92.66) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  255. # [02:28] <sayrer> The h264 vs ogg debate is so lame
  256. # [02:28] <sayrer> it's not a "neither works for everyone" situation
  257. # [02:28] <sayrer> that is an amoral argument
  258. # [02:29] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  259. # [02:30] <Niictar> Well, for now, I would love to be able to have video display on my site on the iPhone and on the desktop
  260. # [02:30] <Niictar> Regardless of the debate
  261. # [02:30] <Niictar> But I don't know anything about it right now
  262. # [02:31] <Niictar> I don't even know what extention h.264 uses
  263. # [02:31] <sayrer> don't worry, we're busily coding up a quicktime wrapper API
  264. # [02:32] <roc> not any more
  265. # [02:33] <Niictar> Well, time for food. Thanks for the help
  266. # [02:33] * Niictar is away
  267. # [02:33] * Hixie gets into a twitter conversation with someone who says that <input type=date> will be buggy and therefore we should use XForms
  268. # [02:33] <Hixie> ...because apparently XForms <input ref="x"> <x xsi:type="xsd:date"> will not be buggy...?
  269. # [02:35] * Niictar is back to say he has upload a .mp4 file and his Safari 4 installation is giving him a green box. Maybe error correction for bad video format should be implimented?
  270. # [02:35] <Niictar> And actually now I am away again
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  286. # [03:32] <olliej> sicking: what do you mean the spec shouldn't mandate view source behaviour? :D
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  305. # [06:00] <Niictar> Quiet
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  307. # [06:38] <Niictar> Oh man
  308. # [06:39] <Niictar> I just realized one thing
  309. # [06:39] <Niictar> firefox.ogv was referenced as a relative link, hence the 404. Dumb.
  310. # [06:42] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  311. # [06:43] <Niictar> But it still doesn't work
  312. # [06:43] <Niictar> Well, at least it's being consistent =(
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  320. # [07:43] <Hixie> 100%!
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  323. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: 100% completed on the author-view edits?
  324. # [07:51] <Hixie> yeah
  325. # [07:51] <Hixie> i'm sure it's shock-full of typos and errors and i look forward to everyone's feedback over the next 5 years :-)
  326. # [07:51] <Hixie> i wonder if i can get away with marking this an "editorial" edit
  327. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> congrats
  328. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> お疲れさま (otsukaresama)
  329. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you define "editorial" as changes that don't effect implementations?
  330. # [07:52] <Hixie> checked in
  331. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> excellent
  332. # [07:55] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  333. # [07:57] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/49C09567.5000207@digitalbazaar.com
  334. # [07:58] <Hixie> we've been saying for months that this is what will happen when rdf gets popular and is why rdf won't work in the wild
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  336. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I find it hard to comment on that without being seen as partisan.
  337. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> but I'm glad that Manu remains involved in the discussions
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  364. # [09:51] <bell007> hi
  365. # [09:53] <bell007> hi , p.parse(content).toxml()[19:-14] , why it remove src="http://www.test.com/image.png" ???
  366. # [09:54] <bell007> import html5lib from html5lib import sanitizer p = html5lib.HTMLParser(tokenizer=sanitizer.HTMLSanitizer)
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  369. # [09:56] <Philip`> bell007: Which version of html5lib are you using?
  370. # [10:00] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.125.66.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  371. # [10:02] <bell007> Philip:Google Code SVN Version. I found it remove src="http://www.test.com/image.png" in toxml() step.
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  373. # [10:19] <jgraham> bell007: You have a checkout from today? I think there was a regression like that that got foxed at the weekend
  374. # [10:19] <jgraham> *fixed
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  380. # [10:45] * hsivonen is really, really annoyed at bugs in Keynote's video export support
  381. # [10:46] <jgraham> When reading "saying somethinf is unspecified [...] is more a warning to programmers" leaves me feeling thoroughly depressed, does that mean I've spent too long drrinking the WHATWG koolaid?
  382. # [10:47] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know if Keynote ’09 fixes any video export bugs compared to Keynote ’08
  383. # [10:48] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  384. # [10:49] <Philip`> jgraham: I've seen people outside the web standards community who seem to agree that that idea is depressing
  385. # [10:51] <Philip`> e.g. when there are people who think relying on undefined behaviour in C++ is fine because it works in their compiler, and the undefinedness is just a warning to be careful, there are other people who think that's stupid and it's going to bite those people in the end and they really shouldn't disregard the standards
  386. # [10:52] <jgraham> Philip`: So one of the most depressing things is the assumption that people will be aware of what is in the standard in order to be careful around it
  387. # [10:52] <Philip`> so it should be treated as a (uncheckable) error rather than a warning to programmers
  388. # [10:53] <Philip`> though this is probably a quite different interpretation of your quote than how it would be interpreted in the context of web standards
  389. # [10:54] <jgraham> In this case I think the error condition is checkable but the argument is being made that it should be implementation-defined and programmers should have to be careful to save the bother of actually checking it
  390. # [10:55] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  391. # [10:57] <Philip`> Perhaps the idea is that people should test their code in two browsers, and if it differs then it's because they're relying on undefined behaviour and that should indicate to them that they need to fix it
  392. # [10:59] <jgraham> I think the idea is that no person should write code like this in the first place. Which seems like an optimistic assumption
  393. # [11:00] <gsnedders> So, my plan at getting up early failed
  394. # [11:00] <Philip`> 10am is pretty early
  395. # [11:01] * gsnedders wonders why http://twitter.com/gsnedders and http://search.twitter.com/search?q=from%3Agsnedders are different
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  398. # [11:08] <mpt> gsnedders, the search is weird. Yesterday I found that it produced different results based on the order of the search terms.
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  402. # [11:13] <Philip`> The search is weirder than that - it even varies depending on the time of day
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  410. # [11:56] <hsivonen> I'm amused to see that Philip` has found a bug in Genx
  411. # [11:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Is that not inevitable?
  412. # [12:05] <Philip`> It's just a continuation of my quest to prove that it is humanly impossible to write code that generates well-formed XML
  413. # [12:06] <annevk2> It also proves Tim is a bozo
  414. # [12:06] <Philip`> *Everyone* is a bozo :-)
  415. # [12:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: You bozo.
  416. # [12:06] <Philip`> At least, everyone who attempts to write code that generates XML is a bozo
  417. # [12:07] <Philip`> and at some point you have to start wondering whether the problem is with XML rather than with the entire human race
  418. # [12:07] <Philip`> (the most likely problem being that there are a lot of rules, and thus a lot of chances to get things wrong)
  419. # [12:08] <Philip`> (In a more permissive markup language you could still have bugs like forgetting to escape "<" in text, but you wouldn't have to worry about also escaping "]]>" in text)
  420. # [12:09] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  421. # [12:10] <Philip`> ((By "more permissive" I just mean one in which fewer strings are errors, not necessarily one in which there is no draconian error handling))
  422. # [12:11] <Lachy> Philip`, one day, I will prove you wrong by writing a tool that always outputs well formed XML
  423. # [12:12] <Philip`> Well, it's easy to write a tool that always outputs well-formed XML
  424. # [12:12] <Lachy> I don't mean something simple that just does: print "<foo>Hello World!</foo>";
  425. # [12:12] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  426. # [12:13] <Philip`> It needs to accept arbitrary user input, and preferably use that input to determine what tags and namespaces to output (i.e. not just text and attribute values)
  427. # [12:13] <Lachy> of course
  428. # [12:13] <Philip`> Also it's not allowed to simply pass its serialiser output back into an XML parser and print an error message if it wasn't well-formed
  429. # [12:14] <Philip`> (It should either modify the data into something well-formed, or generate error messages at the moment when the invalid document fragment is constructed)
  430. # [12:14] <jgraham> Lachy: If you mean "a tool that can produce any output that conforms to the XML1.0+XMLNS grammar and never produces output that does not conform to said grammar" then it is worth noting that many people before you have trie and failed
  431. # [12:14] <Lachy> no, I will make it so that, e.g., it outputs non-Unicode byte sequences as U+FFFD, and other stuff like that
  432. # [12:15] <Philip`> Also, if I can't find any bugs then I'll just pretend I haven't even bothered looking at it yet, to avoid disproving my argument
  433. # [12:15] <Lachy> jgraham, I know. That's why I'm accepting the challenge
  434. # [12:16] <jgraham> "Good Luck With That"
  435. # [12:16] <annevk2> "Waste of Time"
  436. # [12:16] <jgraham> Yeah, it seems like there are more interesting things to work on
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  438. # [12:17] <jgraham> Like making a markup language with less chances of going wrong in the first place
  439. # [12:17] <Philip`> It would only be worthwhile if you could convince a significant number of people to use your library
  440. # [12:17] <Lachy> sure, I don't plan to work on it now. But one day, when I have some time and motivation
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  442. # [12:18] <jgraham> Oh I have a lot of projects like that. I plan to get high speed network access in my coffin to finish them all
  443. # [12:18] <Philip`> "I can write a better XML serialiser library than all the XML experts who have tried and failed before me, and I will prove it at some undetermined point in the future which is likely to never occur!" ;-)
  444. # [12:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: re: www-tag, back on the telecon where the versioning ACTION was minted, I said reopening the discussion probably wouldn't be productive...
  445. # [12:24] * Philip` notes that the Genx bug is particularly weird, since there's an explicit piece of code added to allow the first character of an NCName to be ':', and that code has no other possible purpose
  446. # [12:26] <annevk2> hsivonen, ah, maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all then
  447. # [12:27] <hsivonen> annevk2: that's not what I meant. I meant I agree with your assesment about the earlier thread.
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  452. # [12:56] <hsivonen> The presentation recording feature of Keynote is evil. It would be a great idea if it worked. Now it lures a person to commit to the idea of recording but then its so buggy that fixing the results requires unreasonable effort.
  453. # [12:56] * gsnedders wonders if hsivonen has filed a bug
  454. # [12:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: last time I checked, Apple's bug reporter wouldn't let me log in even after I emailed Apple about it
  455. # [12:57] <gsnedders> Odd.
  456. # [12:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: also, I have ’08, so presumably I should first buy ’09 and see if the bug persists there
  457. # [12:59] <Philip`> You should use the bug reporter to report the bug that prevents you logging in
  458. # [12:59] <Philip`> That sounds like a good business model - release a product that doesn't work, and then have people buy the next version of the product just to see if you've fixed it yet
  459. # [13:00] <hsivonen> I'm quite annoyed. I'll go some bugs of my own making.
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  462. # [13:08] <ap> hsivonen: if everything else fails, there's http://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/bugrptform.html
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  464. # [13:09] <hsivonen> ap: thanks
  465. # [13:09] <gsnedders> ap: Mac OS 9 is an option for platform on that form!
  466. # [13:10] <ap> gsnedders: this may or may not be a mistake, I don't know
  467. # [13:11] <ap> gsnedders: e.g. a current product such as AirPort Base Station may be supported with OS 9 clients
  468. # [13:12] * gsnedders shrugs
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  472. # [13:31] <annevk3> http://blog.amplesdk.com/2009/03/18/getting-ready-for-tomorrow-ample-sdk-to-use-html5-doctype/ but they keep the xmlns cruft. Weird.
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  490. # [14:54] * Lachy wishes people would trim CC lists in replies more frequently
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  509. # [15:59] <annevk3> argh
  510. # [15:59] <annevk3> proofreading.is.needed
  511. # [15:59] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@69.30.57.90)
  512. # [16:01] <jgraham> annevk3: Well for a start I suggest using spaces rather than dots between your words
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  515. # [16:02] * Philip` read that sentence and didn't notice the dots, since they were camouflaged with the dust on his monitor
  516. # [16:04] * jgraham postulates that people who complain that HTML5 is taking too long have never wanted to use the STIX fonts
  517. # [16:06] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.166.113.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  518. # [16:07] <jgraham> Hmm it took 3 messages for the "web addresses... thread to turn into a bikeshed about the name. I wonder what the record is
  519. # [16:08] <Philip`> jgraham: I guess they haven't been waiting for the final volume of TAOCP either
  520. # [16:14] * Philip` wonders what tricks there are for making a LaTeX document shorter without cutting out any of the content
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  522. # [16:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Larger margins
  523. # [16:19] <jgraham> Smaller fonts
  524. # [16:19] <jgraham> Smaller figures
  525. # [16:20] <iugrina> Philip`: baselinestretch
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  529. # [16:27] <Philip`> I don't want to change margins or font size, since there's specific formatting requirements and a provided .cls file for it
  530. # [16:28] <Philip`> I'm already using Times which saves half a page compared to Computer Modern
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  533. # [16:31] * Philip` decides to delay that boring formatting cleanup stuff until later
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  540. # [17:03] <jgraham> Web browsers suck
  541. # [17:04] <annevk3> now there's an axiom I haven't seen before
  542. # [17:05] <jgraham> It's not really an axiom, I have evidence.
  543. # [17:07] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.6)
  544. # [17:07] <Philip`> Axioms aren't things without evidence, they're just things without proof
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  546. # [17:08] <Philip`> I could take a piece of paper, draw two points on it, then draw a straight line through those points, and it would be evidence supporting Euclid's first axiom
  547. # [17:09] <jgraham> Philip`: That seems subtly wrong. Axioms are principles on which you use logic to build conclusions. But my statement was a conclusion, not an axiom that went into forming that conclusion
  548. # [17:10] <jgraham> So I guess I was wrong to say "it's not an axiom, I have evidence"
  549. # [17:11] <jgraham> It should be more like "it's not an axiom it's the combination of an axiom that can be used to define suckiness plus deductions" or something
  550. # [17:11] <Philip`> I guess they're more precisely *irreducible* principles on which you use logic to build conclusions
  551. # [17:13] <Philip`> I suppose you could hypothesise a universe in which web browsers axiomatically do not suck, but the universe will probably not be consistent
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  558. # [17:37] * Philip` successfully shortens his document by about minus six lines
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  560. # [17:41] <takkaria> Philip`: simply consistent or absolutely consistent? :)
  561. # [17:44] <Philip`> takkaria: Yes
  562. # [17:44] * Philip` doesn't know the difference, and should probably be working on stuff other than finding out the difference :-p
  563. # [17:46] * Philip` hatches a cunning plan
  564. # [17:46] <Philip`> If I remove some citations from my document, it saves a few characters on some lines plus it saves whole lines in the References section at the end
  565. # [17:47] * Philip` can't see any downsides
  566. # [17:52] <jgraham> Plus your work looks more original
  567. # [17:52] <jgraham> On the downside you annoy someone who you might want to work for in the future
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  569. # [17:54] <Philip`> Good points :-)
  570. # [17:55] <Philip`> (Fortunately these are only actually links to web sites for Cisco and Quagga, and people can type those terms into Google if they really want to find them)
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  612. # [20:59] <Hixie> ok
  613. # [20:59] <Hixie> database section is now out of html5
  614. # [20:59] <Hixie> along with websockets and eventsource
  615. # [21:00] <Philip`> Are they in anywhere else yet?
  616. # [21:00] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/
  617. # [21:00] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/
  618. # [21:00] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/
  619. # [21:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: are there still whatwg-lisensed versions?
  620. # [21:01] <Hixie> no
  621. # [21:01] <Hixie> at least, not post-processed versions
  622. # [21:01] <Hixie> the source is still part of the html5 spec's "source" document
  623. # [21:02] <annevk3> yay: http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/
  624. # [21:02] <gsnedders> Oh dear…
  625. # [21:02] <gsnedders> That just seems horrific
  626. # [21:02] <gsnedders> The source document doesn't even correlate to the output now? Yuk.
  627. # [21:02] <Hixie> the source document is run through a bunch of scripts to generate the output documents
  628. # [21:03] <Hixie> from that one file i now generate one whatwg spec, four w3c specs, and an rfc
  629. # [21:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: does this mean that Web Apps rechartered?
  630. # [21:04] <Hixie> no idea
  631. # [21:04] <gsnedders> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/03/18/if-it-fails-for-some
  632. # [21:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: great to see that the split finally happened
  633. # [21:06] * annevk3 has mixed feelings about the split
  634. # [21:07] * Joins: atw (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  635. # [21:07] <annevk3> I see two potential issues with having them separate: 1) license 2) maintenance
  636. # [21:07] <Hixie> if anyone comes around asking where the specs they were implementing have gone, please point them to the dev.w3.org pages :-)
  637. # [21:08] <Hixie> maintenance shouldn't be an issue since they're all autogenerated from one source document
  638. # [21:08] <annevk3> but they no longer need to be LC quality by the end of this year
  639. # [21:08] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  640. # [21:09] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I wonder what the twitter response to Troy's post will be like
  641. # [21:09] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Troy's post?
  642. # [21:09] <Hixie> annevk3: true, true
  643. # [21:09] * gsnedders expects he's missing something
  644. # [21:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: see http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt#comment-7771
  645. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Ah
  646. # [21:10] <Hixie> annevk3: i guess you'll just have to make sure i get to them anyway :-)
  647. # [21:10] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  648. # [21:10] <annevk3> Hixie, can I book a few weeks in September? :p
  649. # [21:11] <gsnedders> :P
  650. # [21:12] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-fe2d55b8e65cca2e)
  651. # [21:12] <Hixie> annevk3: i recommend not waiting until then :-)
  652. # [21:15] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  653. # [21:27] <annevk3> http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/02/rel-canonical#comment-6736 SEO spam or sort of useful?
  654. # [21:27] <annevk3> I suppose I could just delete his comment for calling a link relation a "tag"
  655. # [21:28] <Philip`> It seems worth keeping the comment if and only if it provides some useful information or insight to the discussion
  656. # [21:29] <Philip`> which is probably an easier judgement than trying to work out whether a comment was intended as spam or not
  657. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: Are you so for micromanaging a bibliography you couldn't even use some programmatic thing as a stop-gap solution?
  658. # [21:30] <annevk3> gone
  659. # [21:36] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  660. # [21:36] <jwalden> Hixie: fyi, html5 has a few refs to the database API still, search for "database" to find them
  661. # [21:37] <annevk3> the one on Window probably being the most problematic
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  664. # [21:51] <annevk3> same goes for localStorage and sessionStorage fwiw
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  666. # [21:55] <annevk3> http://twitter.com/mibbit_svn/statuses/1350511417
  667. # [21:55] <annevk3> https://twitter.com/Hixie/status/1350291221
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  672. # [22:08] <roc> where are Web Sockets, Event Source and Web Storage going to live?
  673. # [22:10] <annevk3> WebApps WG, likely
  674. # [22:11] <annevk3> after shepazu and MikeSmith do some charter-fu
  675. # [22:14] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  676. # [22:21] * gsnedders stretches, and goes back to reading Lolita (oh bad immoral me)
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  679. # [22:32] <Hixie> gsnedders: dunno
  680. # [22:32] <Hixie> jwalden: yeah, i've marked some of those cases with "XXX"s
  681. # [22:33] <Hixie> roc: if you mean wg-wise, webapps is where i was told they should be
  682. # [22:38] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  683. # [22:38] * Hixie peers into his mail archives to see what he should reply to
  684. # [22:38] <Hixie> good god
  685. # [22:38] <Hixie> 142 e-mails on <time>
  686. # [22:43] * jgraham mocks Hixie for agreeing to reply to all that email
  687. # [22:46] <Hixie> i do not think agreeing to that was a mistake
  688. # [22:46] <Hixie> i also do not think that not agreeing to reply to all the public-html mail was a mistake
  689. # [22:47] <Hixie> the key difference being that the latter list has had long periods of unmitigated community breakdown
  690. # [22:47] <Hixie> which leads to e-mails that are not worth the electrons they are written on
  691. # [22:47] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  692. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Hixie has obviously become bored with stuff at a byte level
  693. # [22:51] <jgraham> Hixie: I was joking :)
  694. # [22:52] <Hixie> jgraham: :-)
  695. # [22:52] <jgraham> Although I am glad that I do not have to reply to all that email
  696. # [22:54] <gsnedders> "You got 21 out of 25 correct. (That's 84%.)" — not bad for a quiz on a book that I haven't read in a year, and a quiz that asks quite obscure questions
  697. # [22:56] <annevk3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Mar/0045.html I guess I should keep an open mind...
  698. # [23:02] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  699. # [23:12] <roc> Why do people think it makes any sense to have thousands of test cases with no automation?
  700. # [23:13] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-67-189.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  701. # [23:13] <roc> do they actually have people sitting in cubicles running through these tests all day?
  702. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Yes
  703. # [23:13] <Hixie> i'd imagine they do the same as opera, and have a system that takes screenshots
  704. # [23:13] <roc> I refuse to believe you
  705. # [23:13] <gsnedders> I refuse to believe myself.
  706. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Trusting someone who is reading a novel where a central concern is the unreliability of the narration would be very naïve
  707. # [23:16] <roc> we solved this problem with reftests
  708. # [23:16] <roc> I suppose someone can create a reference page for each of these tests
  709. # [23:16] <annevk3> should be quite simple for most of these tests
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  711. # [23:19] <Philip`> You couldn't possibly automate all the tests - it would cut out thousands of man-hours of work and destroy the job security of many QA engineers, which is unacceptable in the current economic climate
  712. # [23:23] <roc> don't worry, we can employ them writing more automated test
  713. # [23:24] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.45)
  714. # [23:24] <Hixie> roc: not most of them
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  717. # [23:29] <virtuelv> Hixie: thanks for splitting out Storage
  718. # [23:29] <Hixie> np
  719. # [23:29] <Hixie> is there anything else that can be split out easily that i missed?
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  721. # [23:33] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@pD957912D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009030221 [Firefox 3.6a1pre/20090318030831]")
  722. # [23:37] <annevk3> Hixie, cross-document messaging I suppose
  723. # [23:37] <Hixie> that relies on Window too much
  724. # [23:37] <Hixie> MessageChannel maybe
  725. # [23:38] <Hixie> but that's tiny
  726. # [23:39] * Quits: iugrina (n=iugrina@sdgate2.cvjetno.sczg.hr) ("leaving")
  727. # [23:39] <Philip`> You could split out all the HTML from the spec
  728. # [23:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  729. # [23:46] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  730. # [23:47] <virtuelv> Hixie: Window object?
  731. # [23:48] <virtuelv> (Ok, I realise that might be going far)
  732. # [23:49] <Hixie> "easily" was a key word
  733. # [23:49] <annevk3> I think it would be nice if Window / page loading / etc. was separate though
  734. # [23:49] * Quits: billmason (n=bmason@69.30.57.90) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  735. # [23:50] <virtuelv> Hixie: how bound is text selection to HTML?
  736. # [23:51] <Hixie> it's bound to editing, which is bound to contentEditable, which is bound to HTML
  737. # [23:53] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben|away
  738. # [23:53] <virtuelv> but no, other than Window, I don't think there is much left to rip, and still call the spec "HTML"
  739. # [23:53] <Hixie> k
  740. # [23:54] <virtuelv> (And I agree with anne on the «nice»
  741. # [23:55] * Quits: aroben|away (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  742. # Session Close: Thu Mar 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)