/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 26 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: what would be a helpful reply to your e-mail?
  7. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Just answer the questions somehow
  8. # [00:13] <gsnedders> (That's useless, I know.)
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  11. # [00:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: is there sample output anywhere? i don't have a file to pass it to test it.
  12. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Not really. Grab css3-namespaces, Bert's DB (see the postprocessor docs, it's linked there), and run that
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  14. # [00:17] <Hixie> uris?
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  17. # [00:18] <gsnedders> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-namespace/Overview.src.html
  18. # [00:18] <Hixie> wait, you can't give a url
  19. # [00:18] <Hixie> how does this work
  20. # [00:19] <gsnedders> File uploads only
  21. # [00:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should spend some time optimising the Python version
  22. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Nah
  23. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: You do that well enough
  24. # [00:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: just to give yourself a better target to aim for in the PHP implementation
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  26. # [00:20] <Hixie> well i replied
  27. # [00:20] <Hixie> dunno how helpful my reply will be!
  28. # [00:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: But I've run out of ways to make it faster, so I was hoping you could try it instead :-p
  29. # [00:21] <Hixie> i recommend removing the python interpreter
  30. # [00:21] <Hixie> it seems like a big bottleneck
  31. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Nice conclusion :)
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  35. # [00:45] <Hixie> hm, no ietf apparea minutes yet
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  43. # [01:42] <annevk3> "HTML5 Web Workers" You'd think that the Google guys of all people know that Web Workers was never in HTML5 to begin with :)
  44. # [01:42] <Hixie> it's in html5 now!
  45. # [01:43] <Hixie> well it's in webapps/current-work/source
  46. # [01:43] <Hixie> but yeah
  47. # [01:43] <Hixie> we need a new name to refer to all these technologies
  48. # [01:48] <Hixie> annevk3, i might need you to do something for sync xhr (namely, release the storage mutex)
  49. # [01:48] <Hixie> i'll let you know later.
  50. # [01:54] <dave_levin> annevk3: The html5 prefix was an oversight. I'll see if I can get it fixed.
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  61. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: i'm wondering what an "earthquake prevention kit" is
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  68. # [04:32] <jcranmer> (long story)
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  95. # [07:55] * gsnedders needs to wake up
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  97. # [07:59] * zcorpan enumerates window in ie8
  98. # [07:59] <zcorpan> window.maxConnectionsPerServer=6
  99. # [07:59] <zcorpan> onhelp=null
  100. # [08:00] <zcorpan> offscreenBuffering=auto
  101. # [08:01] <takkaria> gsnedders: boo
  102. # [08:02] <zcorpan> they have a clientInformation attribute that seems identical to navigator
  103. # [08:02] * gsnedders jumps in fright
  104. # [08:02] <gsnedders> All these southerners!
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  111. # [08:34] <gsnedders> I need to learn to spell.
  112. # [08:34] <hsivonen> interesting comments at http://almaer.com/blog/canvas-3d-standards-and-where
  113. # [08:36] <hsivonen> annevk3: Re: validator.nu messages: perhaps I should just bite the bullet and merge George Bina's improvements directly on the v.nu branch of Jing...
  114. # [08:37] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  115. # [08:39] <hsivonen> from the text editor authoring perspective, I'd be unhappy with required quotess on attributes
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  120. # [08:59] <Hixie> annevk3: yt?
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  122. # [09:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: checking just quotes would be pointless. it's better to check full polyglotness
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  124. # [09:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: who'd be my users for a full polyglotness check? I can think of two potential users right now.
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  127. # [09:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: who other than sam?
  128. # [09:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the other polyglot publisher I had in mind was Jacques Distler
  129. # [09:12] <zcorpan> ah
  130. # [09:13] <zcorpan> yep and it would be nice for people who come from xhtml 1.0 validation and don't want to regress their "strictness" checking
  131. # [09:14] <zcorpan> although i would only include the checkbox in the advanced interface :)
  132. # [09:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh yeah, I have an open feature request on XHTML strictness stuff
  133. # [09:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I have feedback (in addition to feedback from you) that it would be a killer XHTML 1.0 to HTML5 evangelism feature
  134. # [09:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but did you plan to implement that as full polyglotness checking or just warning on implied tags?
  135. # [09:16] <gsnedders> jgraham / annevk3: Can one of you add seanecoates to html5lib?
  136. # [09:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I was thinking of implementing warning on implied tags.
  137. # [09:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: partial polyglotness checking is already possible but it's hard to discover and requires several changes from the default
  138. # [09:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think it would be nice with a checkbox that validated as both html and xhtml and maybe check stuff like <pre>\n
  139. # [09:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: who is he?
  140. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about http://simon.html5.org/test/validator/content-model/label/input-in-label-with-for.html
  141. # [09:24] <jgraham> And is that a gmail address?
  142. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the change I made to assertions.sch will catch that as an error
  143. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> but need to change it in the java assertions code that v.nu actually uses, in order for v.nu to be able to report it as an error
  144. # [09:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I deployed your patches from yesterday. Thanks!
  145. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  146. # [09:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think people who'd appreciate <pre>\n correctness as opposed to being confused by it would be very few :-/
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  148. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the case where the id() checking assertions.sch results in suboptimal reporting is <label for=foo>bar <input id=foo><input id=foo></label>
  149. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> the duplicate IDs will get reported by the validator (if it's doing ID checking)
  150. # [09:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok (yes, the filter does duplicate checking)
  151. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> so assertions.sch, checking by itself, will only report the second <input id=foo> instance as an error
  152. # [09:30] <olliej> annevk3: yt?
  153. # [09:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes probably
  154. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: understood. I meant in the general case -- where somebody might be using assertions.sch outside of v.nu
  155. # [09:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it's ok to assume a separate duplicate checking layer
  156. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  157. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> so actually I mean for the case <label for=foo>bar <input id=goo><input id=goo></label>
  158. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> where the ID and @for don't match
  159. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> in that case, it will report "The “for” attribute of the “label” element must refer to a form control."
  160. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> which it was already doing, and is expected
  161. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> but also will report
  162. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> will report 'An "input" descendant of a "label" element with a "for" attribute must have a unique ID value that matches that "for" attribute.' only for the second <input> instance
  163. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> I think it would be better if it reported it for the first as well, but I don't know how to make that happen just with XPath and id()
  164. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's not a big deal
  165. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, what it does exactly is, when it hits the test "not(count(.|id(ancestor::h:label/@for)) = count(id(ancestor::h:label/@for)))", it passes for the first <input> instance with 1=1
  166. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> but when it hits the test for it for the second <input> instance, it fails as expected with 2 !=1
  167. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> (2 nodes that have an ID that's the same as the value of @for)
  168. # [09:43] <hsivonen> hmm. what does .|if(...) mean?
  169. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> it seems like that test should fail for <input> instance as well, but I don't understand why it doesn't
  170. # [09:43] <hsivonen> um .|id(...)
  171. # [09:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: Rather well known PHP developer. That is his Google username.
  172. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it means, take the union of the context node and any label nodes with @for that ancestors of the context node
  173. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> and make it a nodeset
  174. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> and then the count() just counts the number of nodes in that nodeset
  175. # [09:45] <hsivonen> ah so that the context node disappears in the count if it's already in the set returned by id()?
  176. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> right, exactly
  177. # [09:45] <hsivonen> ok makes sense.
  178. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> that's the main way to check for node equivalence in pure XPath
  179. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> afaik
  180. # [09:46] <annevk3> olliej, Hixie, pong (for a few minutes)
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  182. # [09:46] <hsivonen> ok. I don't find XPath very intuitive, but then I have never learned it properly.
  183. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> well, I've never learned it properly either
  184. # [09:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you have better solutions that I had. The schematron checks around ARIA IDREFS are still subtly wrong
  185. # [09:48] <hsivonen> s/that/than/
  186. # [09:48] <Hixie> annevk3: xhr
  187. # [09:48] <hsivonen> (the Java checks around ARIA IDREFS should be correct, though)
  188. # [09:48] <olliej> annevk3: apparently getComputedStyle does weird things wrt text-shadow in o9.6 and 10a
  189. # [09:48] <Hixie> annevk3: can we add "Release the storage mutex." as a requirement somewhere near the start of the sync XHR process
  190. # [09:49] <Hixie> annevk3: and can we add "obtain the storage mutex" before you apply cookies and "release the storage mutex" afterwards?
  191. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> well, maybe I can take a look at those in assertions.ssh too at some point. I'm not sure how valuable it will be in the long run to have assertions.sch in sync, but it seems worth trying to for now at least. I can imagine that some might find it useful with other toolchains
  192. # [09:49] <Hixie> annevk3: (for both sync and async)
  193. # [09:49] <annevk3> Hixie, likely, but please email
  194. # [09:49] <Hixie> annevk3: (er, the releases are only for sync)
  195. # [09:49] <Hixie> annevk3: ok
  196. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and having it might save them some time from trying to go through and re-invent it themselvs
  197. # [09:50] <annevk3> olliej, file a bug? :)
  198. # [09:50] <olliej> annevk3: he has
  199. # [09:51] <annevk3> olliej, https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
  200. # [09:51] <annevk3> olliej, ok, great
  201. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: If I could get Norm Walsh to look at it, he could write it in his sleep. me with XPath, it's like I'm rubbing sticks together to make fire
  202. # [09:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I asked on the schematron list, but the suggestions I got were really complex
  203. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> I see
  204. # [09:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in fact, I should take another look and report back to the list. The situation seemed so hard that I've postponed taking a good look for way too long.
  205. # [09:54] <Hixie> annevk3: sent, thanks
  206. # [09:55] <Hixie> well i should sleep
  207. # [09:55] <Hixie> nn
  208. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well, along with the table-integrity case, maybe it's a case where, while it may be possible in schematron, the complexity and inelegance of doing it in schematron make it a suboptimal means for checking of that particular constraint
  209. # [09:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the ARIA IDREFS stuff is very near the simple end of spectrum of constraints, so I think it's a pretty big failure for XPath if it really is hard to express
  210. # [09:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the problem is this:
  211. # [09:58] <hsivonen> with IDREFS, I want to check that 1) all the IDs match and 2) that a condition hold true for all of them
  212. # [09:58] <hsivonen> however, id() tells me if there were zero matches or > 0 matches
  213. # [09:59] <hsivonen> when I want to know that there were as many matches as there were tokens
  214. # [09:59] <hsivonen> except when the tokens are duplicates of each other
  215. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> OK, I see
  216. # [10:00] * olliej admires modifications to the semantics of standard web content to suit a single UA
  217. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the problem is that pure XPath 1.0 doesn't allow me to count the # of space-separated tokens in an attribute value
  218. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: even if I had a RELAX NG -level check for duplicate tokens
  219. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, that limitation in XPath 1.0 sounds right to me. maybe it's possible in 2.0 but that doesn't help us here
  220. # [10:01] <hsivonen> maybe it does if we are OK with using a schematron flavor that is tied to Saxon 9
  221. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe that'd be a better solution that to struggle with XPath 1.0 limitations
  222. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> but there are still a lot of people using XPath 1.0 tools like libxml2
  223. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> libxslt2
  224. # [10:06] <hsivonen> it might also be worthwhile to see what interoperable extensions EXSLT offers around this area
  225. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  226. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> but that wouldn't do any good for a non-XSLT schematron implementation like the one in jing
  227. # [10:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the implementatino in Jing is an XSLT implementatino
  228. # [10:09] <hsivonen> *tion
  229. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh, OK, didn't know
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  231. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should try to address some of the SVG-in-text/html concerns by provide HTML2XML as a Web-based app
  232. # [10:21] <Philip`> hsivonen: Like http://services.philip.html5.org/html-to-xhtml/ ?
  233. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh cool. Yeah, that what I had in mind except I considered allowing the user to paste the URL of a remove HTML document
  234. # [10:22] <hsivonen> and have the result download with Content-Disposition: attachment
  235. # [10:22] * Philip` didn't do that since he didn't want to have to worry about the security implications
  236. # [10:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Done
  237. # [10:27] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  238. # [10:28] * jgraham wishes for some system that didn't involve making uninformed decisions about who to add as contributers whilst still keeping the barrier to entry low
  239. # [10:30] <jgraham> (a DVCS seems like it would help here)
  240. # [10:31] <Philip`> jgraham: Like a DVCS, so everyone can be their own committer, and you judge their work to decide whether to merge it?
  241. # [10:31] <Philip`> Oh, good idea
  242. # [10:32] <hsivonen> is there a hosting service for hg that'd host some kind of html5lib-central?
  243. # [10:33] <Philip`> GitHub? (Not technically Hg but that shouldn't matter much)
  244. # [10:33] <jgraham> BitBucket
  245. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm aware of GitHub, I'm interested in a service for hg
  246. # [10:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  247. # [10:35] * jgraham wonders if he could host html5lib on bitbucket and set up a post-commit hook to automatically push changes to google code
  248. # [10:35] * hsivonen wonders if it were feasible to put V.nu on bitbucket
  249. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Is there a proper Eclipse plug-in for hg?
  250. # [10:36] <hsivonen> where the built-in CVS thingy and Subclipse count as being proper enough
  251. # [10:37] <jgraham> http://www.vectrace.com/mercurialeclipse/ ?
  252. # [10:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: have you tried it?
  253. # [10:39] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  254. # [10:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: No. I have nevber even used Eclipse :)
  255. # [10:40] <jgraham> *never
  256. # [10:42] <hsivonen> ok
  257. # [10:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-223.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  258. # [10:51] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  259. # [10:54] <hsivonen> why do widgets use xmldsig instead of signing the zip content bytes?
  260. # [10:54] <hsivonen> roughly like jars are signed
  261. # [10:58] <hsivonen> XML signatures are fun, because they depend on people being able to write bug-free XML serializers
  262. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: you could have a field day finding bugs that upon fixing theoretically break existing signatures
  263. # [11:02] <Philip`> http://www.smspower.org/
  264. # [11:02] <Philip`> http://www.smspower.org/scalefix.js - using <canvas> to scale images
  265. # [11:03] <Philip`> (and, incidentally, using getImageData in a way that will break if 1 coordinate space unit != 1 canvas ImageData pixel)
  266. # [11:14] <roc> heh
  267. # [11:14] <roc> I tried to persuade Ollie
  268. # [11:15] <olliej> roc: safari has always supported canvas where 1css px != 1 canvas px
  269. # [11:15] <olliej> rothat was in the original definition
  270. # [11:15] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.46)
  271. # [11:15] <roc> ok
  272. # [11:15] <roc> it's still going to break
  273. # [11:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: How would that be possible? Presumably people only sign sane documents (not ones intentionally trying to trigger bugs), and it doesn't seem that hard to serialise Canonical XML in sane cases, so there'd never be any need to change it for obscure bugs
  274. # [11:16] <roc> (getImageData, the way it is defined)
  275. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: note "theoretically"
  276. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: IIRC, Apache has had a bug in their signing serializer
  277. # [11:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: (I assume by "break" you mean "cause not to work", rather than "allow the creation of an arbitrary document with the same hash" or something)
  278. # [11:17] <olliej> roc: this is going to become another example of a "feature" that drastically harms the future-proofness of a basic tech
  279. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: so *theoretically* it's possible that someone has signed a document that triggered the bug
  280. # [11:17] <olliej> roeg. moz exposiing and encouraging 1px = 1canvas px basically forces low res canvas for ever
  281. # [11:17] <olliej> roc
  282. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: after all, I know real people have hit the bug
  283. # [11:17] <roc> we're not encouraging that
  284. # [11:17] <roc> that's just the way it is for Mozilla users and almost all Safari users
  285. # [11:18] <roc> so that's all they test
  286. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: by break I mean that validating a signature says the signature is bogus
  287. # [11:18] <roc> so their sites will break when used by the other users
  288. # [11:18] <Philip`> olliej: It seems there should still be other solutions, e.g. canvas could be high-res but getImageData returns a low-res 1:1 version of the pixels insteaad (and loses data)
  289. # [11:18] <olliej> yup
  290. # [11:18] <roc> Philip`: That's what I was pushing
  291. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: and then some system refuses to talk with some other software
  292. # [11:18] <olliej> and so i will eventually have to code a routine that subsamples canvas to avoid breaking compatibility with firefox
  293. # [11:18] <olliej> yay
  294. # [11:19] <roc> no
  295. # [11:19] <Philip`> It's not about compatibility with Firefox, it's about compatibility with people's perceptions of <canvas> regardless of what browser they tested in
  296. # [11:19] <roc> you have to avoid breaking compatibility with all the Safari users who have normal dpi screens
  297. # [11:20] <roc> all the Web developers who tested their site on Safari with a normal screen and assumed that would work for everyone else
  298. # [11:20] <olliej> Philip`: the alternative is that we throw out the idea that canvas actually looks good on high dpi displays
  299. # [11:20] <hsivonen> for the same reason, I don't believe browser-based CSS renderers could ever change the px to pt ratio
  300. # [11:20] <olliej> roc: um, i have yet to see a getimagedemo written by someone other than me that looked at safari first
  301. # [11:20] <roc> hsivonen: we do
  302. # [11:20] <olliej> hsivonen: we do
  303. # [11:20] <roc> on trunk
  304. # [11:20] <hsivonen> whoa!
  305. # [11:20] <roc> on Firefox 3 actually
  306. # [11:20] <hsivonen> does it break sites?
  307. # [11:20] <olliej> hsivonen: have done since S2
  308. # [11:20] <roc> no
  309. # [11:21] <hsivonen> I'm surprised
  310. # [11:21] <roc> that works because you don't need an unusual screen to see differences
  311. # [11:21] <olliej> hsivonen: everything gets scaled appropriately
  312. # [11:21] <roc> olliej: do you really not understand what I'm saying?
  313. # [11:21] <hsivonen> but who has Safari or Firefox configured with an unusual px to pt ratio? I have no idea how to configure that.
  314. # [11:22] <olliej> hsivonen: because realistically points, inches, etc are in terms of css px
  315. # [11:22] <olliej> hsivonen: absolute units are notional
  316. # [11:22] <olliej> hsivonen: the ratio between css units and device pixels can changes arbitrarily
  317. # [11:22] <olliej> and our canvas impl reflects this
  318. # [11:22] <hsivonen> olliej: device pixels, sure. I meant the ratio of CSS px and CSS pt
  319. # [11:23] <olliej> hsivonen: oh hell no we don't do that, that would i'm fairly sure be distastrous --don't know about moz though
  320. # [11:23] <olliej> roc: are you saying moz will vary css px : css pt ratio?
  321. # [11:24] <roc> yeah
  322. # [11:24] <roc> since FF3
  323. # [11:25] <roc> we detect your screen DPI
  324. # [11:25] <roc> and set pt appropriately
  325. # [11:25] <roc> we had a few complaints IIRC
  326. # [11:25] <hsivonen> roc: how does the detection work?
  327. # [11:25] <roc> but very little really
  328. # [11:25] <olliej> we explicitly do not
  329. # [11:25] <roc> hsivonen: platform APIs
  330. # [11:25] <roc> you can also override dpi explicitly
  331. # [11:25] <roc> open about:config and modify layout.css.dpi to experiment
  332. # [11:26] <olliej> roc: we just change the entire context so that we may have multiple device pixels per css px
  333. # [11:26] * Philip` wonders how the platform knows what size monitor he's plugged in
  334. # [11:26] <hsivonen> roc: do many people on desktop have those APIs returning non-traditional values?
  335. # [11:26] <roc> I think those APIs are pretty accurate on Mac and Windows. X is a mess as usual
  336. # [11:26] <roc> so you get what your screen is
  337. # [11:27] <roc> and screens do vary quite a bit these days
  338. # [11:27] <hsivonen> roc: I thought the Windows API dependend on a user setting that has had two values since Windows 3: 96 and 120
  339. # [11:28] <hsivonen> Do DVI and VGA have a mechanism for reporting the actual dpi of the device? I had always though something like this could only work with Apple displays and Apple OS
  340. # [11:28] <hsivonen> anyway, it's news to me that those APIs return something useful on Mac and Windows
  341. # [11:28] <roc> modern Windows can do that
  342. # [11:29] <Philip`> Vista lets you pick anything from 96dpi to 480dpi
  343. # [11:29] <Philip`> (via the Control Panel)
  344. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: but does it autodetect the default?
  345. # [11:30] <roc> hsivonen: we use GetDeviceCaps(dc, LOGPIXELSY) ... I can't guarantee that works correctly on Windows, but it's supposed to
  346. # [11:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think it always defaults to 96dpi
  347. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: that was what I was after
  348. # [11:31] <Philip`> which it labels the "Default scale" (vs 120dpi being "Larger scale", and the others being behind the "Custom DPI" button)
  349. # [11:31] <roc> I know we're getting some sort of right DPI on X because people have complained about it
  350. # [11:31] <hsivonen> roc: my guess is s/right/different/ :)
  351. # [11:31] <roc> looks like on Mac we're not doing the right thing
  352. # [11:32] <Philip`> People like to think of their computer displays as being pixels, not as being a pixel-based approximation to an inch-based vector image, so DPI changes are weird and confusing :-)
  353. # [11:33] <roc> even if we're only getting 96 or 120 most of the time, it's OK, it still breaks people making assumptions about pt :-)
  354. # [11:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: you should have pushed harder for aria-role back in 2007 when it was first suggested
  355. # [11:34] <roc> olliej: anyway, getImageData as specified is stuffed unless you can arrange for most Web developers to see a ratio of CSS pixels to dev pixels that's not 1
  356. # [11:35] <olliej> roc: yeah, currently it's not sufficient :-/
  357. # [11:35] <Philip`> Good luck on educating web developers :-p
  358. # [11:35] <olliej> roc: i think i commented on this in whatg ml at some point
  359. # [11:35] <roc> yeah, we had a long discussion about it
  360. # [11:36] <roc> you won, and got this getImageData API
  361. # [11:36] <roc> "won"
  362. # [11:36] <olliej> hehe
  363. # [11:36] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  364. # [11:37] <roc> IMHO you should give up, let getImageData be lossy, and in a few years when Web devs have got super-high-dpi screens, create getImageDataEx
  365. # [11:37] * olliej cries
  366. # [11:37] <olliej> robut yes
  367. # [11:37] <olliej> i suspect you are right
  368. # [11:38] <Philip`> The API should have been designed to pick a random value between 1 and 1.5, then multiply all the sizes by that value before extracting the pixels and returning the ImageData
  369. # [11:39] <Philip`> That way people couldn't rely on it having a 1:1 mapping to canvas coordinate space units, even if they only test in a single browser
  370. # [11:39] <olliej> Philip`: hehe
  371. # [11:55] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  372. # [12:05] <Dashiva> Philip`: So people can run the function N times and extract the original value instead? :)
  373. # [12:20] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD957924A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  374. # [12:29] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  375. # [12:50] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  376. # [12:51] <hsivonen> w00t! finally passing http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/003.html
  377. # [12:52] <hsivonen> starting an HTML load and ending it turned out to be much hairier than I imagined
  378. # [12:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-207-198.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  379. # [12:58] <Philip`> When people argue that writing an HTML parser is much harder than writing an XHTML parser, it sounds like they're actually right (though because of document.write rather than any syntax issues)
  380. # [13:06] <wilhelm_> Hixie: Yes, but I haven't had time to wrap it up. Please ask the same question again on Sunday. (c:
  381. # [13:07] <Philip`> data:text/xml,<html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'><body><div><script>var d = document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0]; d.parentNode.removeChild(d)</script></div>test</body></html>
  382. # [13:07] <Philip`> Looking at that in Dragonfly in Opera, it looks like the "test" text is a sibling of the root html element
  383. # [13:07] <Philip`> which surely isn't good
  384. # [13:07] <Philip`> since it kind of defeats the point of having a root element
  385. # [13:08] <Philip`> (Opera 9.64 in particular)
  386. # [13:09] <virtuelv> Philip`: known issue, IIRC
  387. # [13:11] <Philip`> (If I wrap the script in two divs then the text vanishes entirely - I presume the </div>s are causing the open element stack to be popped even if the div elements have already been removed from it via scripts)
  388. # [13:11] <Philip`> I guess this is where an XML parser spec would be nice :-)
  389. # [13:13] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-7451b370201e8503) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  390. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, in this case, the problem wasn't document.write, but the the interaction of global object association with the document, the order of calls into the parser, managing the readiness of the document and scripts as a group and deferring the load event
  391. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: all issues that apply to application/xhtml+xml
  392. # [13:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: and part of it was Gecko-specific quirkiness: calls to the parser before the global scope is ready
  393. # [13:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: and onload deferring being tied to the global scope in a non-obvious way
  394. # [13:29] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@65.214.187.19)
  395. # [13:30] <rubys> hsivonen: just curious: how quickly could you develop and deploy polyglotness testing? Even if it was significantly incomplete, I think it would be valuable for educational reasons.
  396. # [13:32] <hsivonen> rubys: I don't know. Forming a good estimate would involve doing the work of thinking about what the issues are, which is the difficult part. :-)
  397. # [13:33] <rubys> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML
  398. # [13:33] <rubys> Again, I do think even if it was significantly incomplete, it would be very valuable. Everywhere I turn I run into people who think they are producing XHTML.
  399. # [13:34] <rubys> It often is very hard to convince them otherwise.
  400. # [13:34] <hsivonen> rubys: are you looking for stuff like <pre>\n and <input type="hidden" value='\n'>?
  401. # [13:35] <hsivonen> rubys: or just attribute quotes and implied tags?
  402. # [13:35] <rubys> I'd like to see &nbsp; flagged. Is it valid in XHTML1? Yes. But does it enable you to read the page with a random XML parser? Generally, no.
  403. # [13:35] <hsivonen> ouch
  404. # [13:35] <rubys> ouch as in that's hard?
  405. # [13:36] <hsivonen> ouch as in you seem to be looking for tokenizer-level things instead of tree builder level
  406. # [13:36] <rubys> "In XHTML: <![CDATA[...]]> is a CDATA section. In HTML, it's a bogus comment. "
  407. # [13:36] <Lachy> that wiki page seems a little incomplete now. It doesn't mention the <pre>\n or <input value="\n"> issues, and needs to be updated with SVG and MathML stuff
  408. # [13:36] <hsivonen> detecting which entity is being expanded is doable, but that code is in the 'here be dragons' territory
  409. # [13:37] <hsivonen> hmm. perhaps I already have a check for apos anyway
  410. # [13:37] <hsivonen> so not too hard, just an area that I don't like poking :-)
  411. # [13:38] <rubys> It would also help resolve the svg in html issue. :-)
  412. # [13:42] <rubys> Lachy: my guess is that the wiki page will always be incomplete.
  413. # [13:43] <Lachy> sure, but I should find some time to keep it as complete as possible
  414. # [13:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why not validate twice to do polyglotness checking?
  415. # [13:44] <hsivonen> rubys: for a practical resolution of the issue by writing software, I think it would be more useful to make the converter service that allows remote URLs
  416. # [13:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would be way too simple :-)
  417. # [13:45] <rubys> html5lib comes close to being a converter service
  418. # [13:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why reject the simple solution? :)
  419. # [13:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess the real issue is conneg serving different bytes if the validator dereferences the URI twice
  420. # [13:45] <Lachy> zcorpan, because validation alone doesn't catch all polyglot incompatibilities
  421. # [13:45] * Joins: anne-m (i=5c43259a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e696eff79f730a0f)
  422. # [13:45] <rubys> it could easily be put online. Perhaps even with appengine
  423. # [13:46] <hsivonen> rubys: Philip` already put a converter online
  424. # [13:46] <hsivonen> rubys: it just lacks one feature
  425. # [13:46] <hsivonen> rubys: but to be fair to Philip` I, too, shyed away from that feature earlier for security and legal worries
  426. # [13:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: couldn't you use the same stream of bytes twice?
  427. # [13:46] <Lachy> zcorpan, e.g., it woudln't catch that <pre>\n issue, since its valid with or without the new line, but the incompatibility is caused by the different processing requirements
  428. # [13:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not without some infrastructure work
  429. # [13:47] <rubys> what's that feature?
  430. # [13:47] <hsivonen> rubys: being able to enter an arbitrary URL that dereferences into text/html and the service proxies it to the client as application/xhtml+xml
  431. # [13:48] <hsivonen> rubys: but I think the real risk seems negligible
  432. # [13:48] <rubys> I would add one more worry: server load
  433. # [13:49] <hsivonen> rubys: that shouldn't be worse than the current parse tree service unless someone in start using the service as an open proxy to work around censorship or user tracking
  434. # [13:49] <rubys> Many requested that the feed validator produce a feed of results. I don't believe that I could survive the load of having gazillions of people polling their pages once an hour.
  435. # [13:50] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  436. # [13:50] <hsivonen> s/ in //
  437. # [13:50] <hsivonen> rubys: have you suggested that those who ask it use inursite?
  438. # [13:51] <anne-m> use the same stream of bytes and compare the output trees? quite a bit of overhead though
  439. # [13:51] <rubys> didn't know about inursite?
  440. # [13:52] * anne-m wonders why typing an opening parenthesis and ampersand don't work in mibbit
  441. # [13:52] * rubys likes anne-m's thought
  442. # [13:52] <zcorpan> anne-m: no, assume the trees are the same but have checks in the html parser for the differences
  443. # [13:53] <hsivonen> http://inursite.com/
  444. # [13:53] <rubys> oh, I found it. I also found the page where Ryan says he's moving on
  445. # [13:53] <hsivonen> oh
  446. # [13:53] <anne-m> zcorpan, that seems more complex
  447. # [13:53] * hsivonen hasn't seen a page where Ryan says he is moving on
  448. # [13:53] <zcorpan> anne-m: but less overhead
  449. # [13:53] <anne-m> olliej, just enlarge the <canvas> :)
  450. # [13:54] <rubys> http://theryanking.com/entries/2008/12/01/moving-on-from-inursite/
  451. # [13:54] * anne-m thought we were looking for something simple to toy around with
  452. # [13:55] <hsivonen> comparing the trees makes sense
  453. # [13:55] <hsivonen> with SAX Tree, you'd even get error locations in source
  454. # [13:55] <hsivonen> it would totally break all the careful streamability of V.nu
  455. # [13:56] <rubys> Start two threads, read alternatlely from both, abort on first error?
  456. # [13:56] <hsivonen> a more 'right' way would be moving from the java.io model to a browser-like IO model
  457. # [13:57] <hsivonen> but I don't have a Java XML parser that supported that IO model
  458. # [13:58] <rubys> The way I would approach it is to smart small, perhaps only checking for missing quotes since that seems to be an emotional issue for reasons that escape me, and slowly add a new feature every week or three. Over time, the service would be very helpful for advocacy.
  459. # [14:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: hmm i wonder why i don't get a fatal error for <html a>x<html b> in html-to-xhtml
  460. # [14:00] <hsivonen> rubys: Ryan's blog post adds more evidence to the pile of evidence of no one having succeeded in making a business of monetizing an online validator by making the users pay
  461. # [14:00] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  462. # [14:00] <rubys> I would be willing to help, either in the definition, the coding, or the testing.
  463. # [14:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it is using the tree mode
  464. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i get a fatal error for <html>x<html b>
  465. # [14:02] <hsivonen> rubys: I think it would make sense to try out the tree comparison idea first as a separate offline tools that uses the rewindable input stream form nu.validator.htmlparser.rewindable
  466. # [14:03] <hsivonen> rubys: having both parsers build a SAX Tree tree with locator data and comparing the trees
  467. # [14:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: seems like you've found a bug
  468. # [14:04] <rubys> My biggest concern about tree comparison is error recovery.
  469. # [14:04] <hsivonen> rubys: you could only report the first difference
  470. # [14:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: want me to file a bug?
  471. # [14:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that would help, yes
  472. # [14:05] <rubys> I think I suggested that. Useful for true polygots (a very small set of people), and wouldn't have the quite the same advocacy/educational value.
  473. # [14:07] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Success)
  474. # [14:07] <hsivonen> aargh. Gecko takes the frame name from a different attribute in XHTML and HTML
  475. # [14:10] <hsivonen> rubys: I guess I disagree about polyglotness as something that people should be advocated/educated to do
  476. # [14:11] <rubys> it's actually the other way around... educate them on how hard it really is
  477. # [14:11] <hsivonen> oh
  478. # [14:11] <rubys> let them come to the realization that it isn't worth it.
  479. # [14:11] <rubys> What I do is hard. You don't see me recommending it to others.
  480. # [14:12] <rubys> My experience differs from this statement: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Will_.28X.29HTML_5_finally_put_an_end_to_the_XHTML_as_text.2Fhtml_debate.3F
  481. # [14:13] <rubys> My hope is that an online tool would help point out that what people believe is XHTML really doesn't address their percieved (and largely non-existent) use case.
  482. # [14:14] <Philip`> rubys: Some evidence suggests education won't work
  483. # [14:14] <Philip`> rubys: http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml uses "<!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--" as an example of how "ridiculously complicated" it is to write inline scripts in polyglot documents
  484. # [14:14] <hsivonen> rubys: there's a risk that if I add a near-impossible validation target, some people will start advocating it as the most righteous target since it is the harders
  485. # [14:14] <hsivonen> t
  486. # [14:14] <hsivonen> hardest
  487. # [14:14] <Philip`> rubys: but I see about 0.5% of sites uses that ridiculous string
  488. # [14:14] <Philip`> *using
  489. # [14:15] <rubys> My "HTML Evolution" is a polyglot document that even uses < is inline CSS without that ridiculous string
  490. # [14:15] <rubys> s/is/in/
  491. # [14:15] <zcorpan> rubys: you mean > ?
  492. # [14:15] <Philip`> (which is far more than the 0.01% or whatever tiny number of pages it is that actually use application/xhtml+xml from the same sample)
  493. # [14:15] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  494. # [14:15] <rubys> yup. s/</>/
  495. # [14:16] <hsivonen> can someone point me to a definition of window.frames.authorspecifiedframename ?
  496. # [14:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: isn't that [[Get]] on window?
  497. # [14:17] <Philip`> rubys: The point is that attempting to educate people about how hard it is to do a certain thing correctly will just result in them doing it the hard way that you showed in your examples, and they'll miss the point that they shouldn't be needing to do it at all
  498. # [14:17] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  499. # [14:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I can't find [[Get]] in the spec. what am I missing?
  500. # [14:18] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-window-nameditem
  501. # [14:18] <rubys> looking at the amount of broken HTML pages, it seems to me that a lot more people are lazy than virtuous.
  502. # [14:19] <rubys> Thought process seems to be: "oh, it's hard?" & "it doesn't really matter" => "I don't really need to worry about it"
  503. # [14:19] <jgraham> I think rubys may have more of a point for something complex like a whole document rather than something "simple" like a silly string
  504. # [14:19] <jgraham> Note that few people aim for the strict doctypes
  505. # [14:19] <Philip`> I can imagine that people think "I want to use XHTML because I heard it's good", then they read "if you really want to use XHTML then you'd have to do this ridiculously complicated thing", so they think "okay then, I'll copy-and-paste that ridiculously complicated thing and it'll be fine"
  506. # [14:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think that's an area where gecko does different things in quirks mode
  507. # [14:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. It seems that it will be non-trivial to make Gecko comply
  508. # [14:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it sure does things differently for XHTML and HTML
  509. # [14:20] <Philip`> (instead of thinking "maybe I shouldn't use XHTML")
  510. # [14:20] <hsivonen> I don't like these gratuitous XHTML vs. HTML differences in the APIs
  511. # [14:21] <hsivonen> rubys: or "oh, it's hard?" => "must be important" => "tell others to do it"
  512. # [14:21] <rubys> "maybe I shouldn't use XHTML"? The education I want to do is to help people who think they are using XHTML that they really aren't.
  513. # [14:22] <hsivonen> rubys: then "J. Random Guru says it's important" => "let's do it"
  514. # [14:22] <rubys> s/J./Z./ :-)
  515. # [14:22] <jgraham> It is generally hard to educate people that fashionable things are bad for them
  516. # [14:22] * hsivonen is actively trying to make it easier to write JavaScript that work for both HTML and XHTML
  517. # [14:23] <hsivonen> rubys: :-)
  518. # [14:24] <Philip`> jgraham: Fortunately HTML5 seems to be becoming fashionable :-)
  519. # [14:25] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-eac1db40a5909ecc)
  520. # [14:26] <jgraham> Philip`: Is XHTML becoming unfashionable?
  521. # [14:26] <jgraham> Then we don't have to try and advocate people to not use it?
  522. # [14:27] <rubys> faux-XHTML is still very fashionable
  523. # [14:27] <jgraham> s/XHTML/"XHTML"/
  524. # [14:27] <jgraham> s/?//
  525. # [14:27] * rubys notes that s/?// will delete the first character in the line
  526. # [14:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: "window[name] Returns the indicated child browsing context." - doesn't match the impl requirements
  527. # [14:28] * rubys retracts that... it actually is a syntax error
  528. # [14:28] * Philip` notes that s/?// will actually give a Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE /
  529. # [14:29] <Philip`> But in IRC we use magical regexps, not Perl-compatible regexps, and so it's perfectly valid to write s//missing word/ etc
  530. # [14:30] <zcorpan> s/what i wrote/what i meant/
  531. # [14:30] <rubys> s/.*?//g
  532. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: In Gecko, having a name attribute on a frame hides the id attribute value for the purpose of frame naming for access on the window object
  533. # [14:31] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  534. # [14:31] <jgraham> Magic regexps are good. They are much better than real regexps
  535. # [14:33] <jgraham> Real regexps tend to end up looking like http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/trunk/python/src/html5lib/sanitizer.py#195
  536. # [14:33] <jgraham> Which is just bad
  537. # [14:34] <rubys> you do realize that you are talking to the author of that line aren't you? :-)
  538. # [14:34] <hsivonen> speaking of regexps, I've considered generating an ahead of compile time automaton for recornizing quirky public ids
  539. # [14:35] <Philip`> rubys: Did you write the next line too? :-)
  540. # [14:35] <hsivonen> *recognizing
  541. # [14:35] <Philip`> rubys: Particularly the one that caused the DOS vulnerability in http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=83 ? ;-)
  542. # [14:36] <jgraham> rubys: Yes :p
  543. # [14:37] <rubys> Philip`: yes
  544. # [14:38] <jgraham> rubys: In truth I would like to avoid using regexps there at all. But I don't know how to do that without writing a CSS parser
  545. # [14:38] <jgraham> Because I am not clever enough to understand complex regexps and therefore I don't like relying on them for security
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  550. # [14:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: the wiki page does say: White space characters in attribute values are normalized to spaces in XHTML.
  551. # [14:42] <anne-m> rubys, Hixie's long compat line for <style> is if you want compat with pre-<style> UAs as well
  552. # [14:43] <anne-m> rubys, if you just care about HTML4/XHTML1 the story is simpler as the article indicates
  553. # [14:43] <Philip`> Everyone wants compat with Netscape 2
  554. # [14:45] <zcorpan> people just copy the sample markup without understanding the prose
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  558. # [14:47] * Philip` thinks that's why Lachy's guide shouldn't mix HTML and XHTML examples, because people will just copy the markup without understanding the difference, and it will result in more inconsistency and the world will become a worse place
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  560. # [14:49] * jgraham is hard to persuade that bad HTML is a significant world problem
  561. # [14:50] <Philip`> I didn't mean to say it was a significant problem, just that it was a non-zero problem :-)
  562. # [14:51] <jgraham> Well some peole seem to behave as if it were a real problem
  563. # [14:51] <hsivonen> rubys: the reason why it's safe to teach people to escape > as &gt; is to avoid the ]]> special case in XML http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/square-square-gt.xml
  564. # [14:51] <jgraham> s/real/significant/
  565. # [14:51] <hsivonen> ]]> is something that would be annoying to add tokenizer complexity for
  566. # [14:51] <Philip`> If ten million HTML authors each waste an hour fighting with bad markup, that's only the equivalent of sixteen human lives, which isn't enough to really worry about
  567. # [14:53] * hsivonen wonders what Real Problem the ]]> rule solves
  568. # [14:53] <jgraham> Philip`: People worrying about their own bad markup is a different problem though
  569. # [14:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: I thought it was for compatibility for existing SGML tools, maybe?
  570. # [14:53] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@65.214.187.19) ("Leaving.")
  571. # [14:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think ]]> in xml is only an error because it was an error in sgml
  572. # [14:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why it was an error in sgml i don't know
  573. # [14:54] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  574. # [14:54] <hsivonen> yay for SGML
  575. # [14:54] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  576. # [14:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's allowed in attribute values :)
  577. # [14:55] <hsivonen> great
  578. # [14:55] <zcorpan> and in pi data, iirc
  579. # [14:55] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-67-188-123-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  580. # [14:57] <hsivonen> how does Safari deal with pre-HTML5 XPath expressions from JS matched against an HTML DOM?
  581. # [14:57] <Philip`> The rule against < in attribute values seems weird - http://www.xml.com/axml/notes/NoLTinAtt.html says "The rule in XML is simple: when you're reading text, and you hit a <, then that's a markup delimiter. Not just sometimes, always." which seems clearly false because of <!--<--> and <![CDATA[<]]> and <?x >?>
  582. # [14:57] <Lachy> Philip`, I strongly believe that HTML and XHTML need to be tought together so that readers can learn the differences
  583. # [14:58] * hsivonen just saw "XPath expressions targeted at pre-HTML5 browsers need to use the XHTML namespace for XHTML and null for HTML. (HTML5 browsers would use the XHTML namespace even in HTML.)" on the wiki
  584. # [14:58] <Philip`> (Uh, I mean <?x <?>)
  585. # [14:59] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@65.214.187.19)
  586. # [14:59] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah, it's a weird rule and it wasn't inherited from sgml :(
  587. # [14:59] <rubys> hsivonen: my experience is that > appears in inline CSS way more often than the sequence ]]> appears
  588. # [15:00] <hsivonen> rubys: I just read the HTML vs. XHTML wiki page. I think implementing proper polyglot checking just to make a point to the SVG WG is not a nice prospect
  589. # [15:00] <hsivonen> rubys: however, it might be worthwhile to make a non-validating parsers-only command line tool for making the point
  590. # [15:01] <rubys> what would the command line tool do?
  591. # [15:01] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  592. # [15:01] <hsivonen> rubys: it would parse as XML and as HTML into two SAX Tree trees, compare them and report the line and col of the first difference
  593. # [15:02] <rubys> I don't think that would make any point.
  594. # [15:02] <rubys> or rather, I fail to see what point that would make
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  597. # [15:02] <hsivonen> rubys: a person playing with it could see when the trees differ
  598. # [15:03] <rubys> what person would find that useful? Perhaps me and Jacques.
  599. # [15:05] * zcorpan would probably play with it just to find bugs
  600. # [15:05] <Philip`> hsivonen: Rather than comparing SAX Tree trees, wouldn't it be easier to just serialise both as XML and use 'diff'?
  601. # [15:06] <Philip`> (using a deterministic serialiser for both)
  602. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: you wouldn't get the right line and col
  603. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: and you'd have a dependency on a tool that Windows users are unlikely to have
  604. # [15:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: But you'd see where in the markup the error occurred
  605. # [15:06] <Philip`> which is more useful than line/column numbers
  606. # [15:06] <Philip`> particularly since Windows users use Notepad which doesn't display line/column numbers :-)
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  609. # [15:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, that's something you can already do with HTML2XML and XML2XML and diff
  610. # [15:09] * Parts: blooberry (n=brian@c-67-188-123-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  611. # [15:11] <Philip`> hsivonen: Seems like that might already address many of the use cases, then
  612. # [15:12] <hsivonen> yeah. my shell script skills are weak. can that be done with pipes without temporary files?
  613. # [15:13] <rubys> It could easily be done in a language like python or ruby
  614. # [15:13] * hsivonen wonders if document.evaluate is used a lot on text/html in the wild
  615. # [15:13] <Philip`> I don't know how to do it in sh without temporary files
  616. # [15:13] <rubys> why limit it to sh?
  617. # [15:14] <Philip`> rubys: Because that would take the fewest lines of code, if it was possible
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  619. # [15:15] <rubys> http://docs.python.org/library/popen2.html
  620. # [15:15] <Philip`> Even if you're using a real scripting language, I don't think you can use the diff command with two input streams and no temporary files
  621. # [15:15] <rubys> Philip`: see the link I just pasted
  622. # [15:15] <rubys> short answer: yes you can
  623. # [15:15] * jgraham notes that subprocess should be used rather than popen2
  624. # [15:16] <Philip`> rubys: That provides access to stdin, stdout and stderr; how do you use them to pass two separate inputs to diff?
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  626. # [15:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Ho do you have two seperate inputs?
  627. # [15:17] <Philip`> jgraham: The inputs are the first file and the second file
  628. # [15:18] <Philip`> If you don't want to pass physical files to diff, the only alternative is '-', which is stdin, and there's only one stdin, and 'diff - -' isn't going to be very helpful
  629. # [15:18] <jgraham> Right, I don't really understand conceptually how you han strean two different inputs
  630. # [15:19] <Philip`> Conceptually it's the same as having two output streams
  631. # [15:19] <Philip`> (one called stdout and one called stdin)
  632. # [15:19] <Philip`> except that Unix tools normally only support one standard input stream
  633. # [15:19] <Philip`> Oops
  634. # [15:19] <rubys> wierd: diff -q <(sort file1.txt | uniq) <(sort file2.txt | uniq)
  635. # [15:19] <Philip`> s/stdin/stderr/
  636. # [15:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Let me be more specific. I don't understand how, in Unix, you can have >1 stdin
  637. # [15:23] <hsivonen> :-( I broke XPath
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  706. # [15:24] <hsivonen> that one will be more annoying to fix than CSS
  707. # [15:24] <hsivonen> since at least CSS already treated HTML nodes as being in the XHTML namespace
  708. # [15:24] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know how WebKit fakes its XPath text/html compat?
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  759. # [15:26] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know how WebKit fakes its XPath text/html compat?
  760. # [15:26] <Philip`> rubys: Hmm, diff <(cat foo) <(cat bar) is kind of cheating because it's really just using bash syntax to hide the creation of temporary files (well, named pipes) :-p
  761. # [15:26] <rubys> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=99706&seqNum=15
  762. # [15:27] <rubys> looks to me like they are cloned file handles, not temporary files
  763. # [15:27] <Philip`> Oops, yes
  764. # [15:27] <Philip`> "named pipes (FIFOs) or the /dev/fd method of naming open files"
  765. # [15:28] <Philip`> Anyway... The sensible solution is to use temporary files :-)
  766. # [15:30] <Philip`> rubys: Is that informit page about something interesting once it's finished taking forever to load? :-)
  767. # [15:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: the Scope section calls out <blink> as something that's out of scope, yet the rendering section defines it
  768. # [15:30] <rubys> loads quickly for me
  769. # [15:30] <rubys> "Newer systems provide a directory named /dev/fd whose entries are files named 0,1, 2, and so on. Opening the file /dev/fd/n is equivalent to duplicating descriptor n (assuming that descriptor n is open)."
  770. # [15:30] <Philip`> rubys: Oh, works for me now
  771. # [15:31] <rubys> [the article is dated 2003)
  772. # [15:32] * Philip` was unaware of such things
  773. # [15:32] <rubys> neither was I
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  810. # [15:44] <Philip`> Whoops, I missed the significance of the <(...) thing because I was trying to work out how to pipeline stuff into it
  811. # [15:45] <Philip`> but actually you can just do diff <(html2xml foo) <(xml2xml foo)
  812. # [15:45] <Philip`> which is neat
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  814. # [15:48] * jgraham just realised that <(...) was different to < (...) which should be obvious given it is bash and is crazy to everyone else
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  824. # [15:54] * Philip` discovers cat <<<"hello world"
  825. # [15:55] * rubys can't wait until Philip` discovers "echo"
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  828. # [15:57] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/28/Bash-Here
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  835. # [16:00] <takkaria> you'd have thought all the people using unix for years would know all the cool features by now
  836. # [16:01] <Dashiva> Maybe if there weren't five million different tools with different features to learn, none of them properly documented :)
  837. # [16:01] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  838. # [16:01] <takkaria> yeah
  839. # [16:01] <Philip`> "man bash" looks like proper documentation to me :-)
  840. # [16:01] <Dashiva> Looks can be deceiving
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  843. # [16:02] <Philip`> I've never bothered learning anything advanced in bash because it's easier to just switch to Perl
  844. # [16:02] <Philip`> (or at least it's easier for me)
  845. # [16:02] * Parts: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) ("Nuda, panie. A si chce wyj z kina. I wychodz.")
  846. # [16:03] <Philip`> It took me years to remember how to do for loops over files in bash
  847. # [16:03] <rubys> yet another language where you continue to learn new cool things that have been around for years
  848. # [16:03] <Dashiva> Should just make a shell that uses a decent language ;)
  849. # [16:03] <jgraham> It's like "if all you hace is a hammer everything looks like a nail". Except s/hammer/hammer and sixteen types of screwdriver and a whole socket set/
  850. # [16:03] <Philip`> I think I've mostly run out of cool new Perl features to discover by accident :-(
  851. # [16:04] <Dashiva> Don't worry, you still have misfeatures and bugs left to go
  852. # [16:04] * jgraham still forgets how to do for loops over files
  853. # [16:04] <rubys> for i in *; do echo $i; done
  854. # [16:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: I've never found many of them either :-)
  855. # [16:04] <jgraham> something like for fn in `ls` do; something done
  856. # [16:04] <jgraham> right?
  857. # [16:04] <Philip`> perl -le'print for <*>' is easier for me to remember
  858. # [16:05] <Philip`> jgraham: Your semicolons are in the wrong places, I think
  859. # [16:05] <jgraham> Yeah, that's the bit I get wrong :)
  860. # [16:05] <jgraham> If there is some logic to it I don't understand
  861. # [16:05] <Philip`> Logic?
  862. # [16:05] <Philip`> That's a foreign concept
  863. # [16:06] <rubys> hint: is 'do' a file name or a reserved word?
  864. # [16:06] <jgraham> The bash maintainers would fit right in here
  865. # [16:06] <Philip`> Is ';' a file name or a reserved word?
  866. # [16:06] <Dashiva> Isn't ; just a newline equivalent?
  867. # [16:07] <Dashiva> Not that bash newline handling is any less insane
  868. # [16:07] <Philip`> I haven't a clue
  869. # [16:08] <jgraham> rubys: I need a bigger hint
  870. # [16:09] <Philip`> jgraham: You can write "for i in 1 2 3; do echo $i; done" - it just takes a space-separated list of tokens
  871. # [16:09] <Philip`> and if you use wildcards then they just expand into the list of tokens
  872. # [16:10] <jgraham> Ah, I knew that. So the point is that the first semicolon delimits the set of tokens
  873. # [16:10] <jgraham> and the second one...
  874. # [16:11] <jgraham> I guess is needed because "done" colud be something else?
  875. # [16:11] <jgraham> Or maybe not
  876. # [16:11] <Philip`> (...and one of the tokens could be the filename 'do', and confusion would ensue)
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  878. # [16:12] <Philip`> The 'done' could be an argument to the previous command
  879. # [16:12] <Philip`> for i in do; do echo $i done; done
  880. # [16:13] <jgraham> It may be showing that I have only ever written one serious shell script (more than a few lines)
  881. # [16:15] <rubys> between the do and done you can have as many statements as you want
  882. # [16:15] <rubys> each statement ends with a semicolon
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  884. # [16:16] <rubys> for i in *
  885. # [16:16] <rubys> do
  886. # [16:16] <rubys> echo $i
  887. # [16:16] <rubys> done
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  891. # [16:16] <Philip`> A semicolon or a newline?
  892. # [16:17] <rubys> yes
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  917. # [17:05] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://services.philip.html5.org/html-to-xhtml/
  918. # [17:05] <Philip`> Hmm, why isn't <textarea oninput> allowed?
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  924. # [17:08] * jgraham wonders wwhy he has such a low success rate in posting to es-discuss
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  930. # [17:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: spec bug or validator bug?
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  936. # [17:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: Don't know
  937. # [17:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: The spec is too confusing for me to know whether oninput is meant to exist
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  944. # [17:12] <Philip`> (It doesn't talk about oninput anywhere, but does talk about input events in various places)
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  979. # [17:44] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks like http://ma.tt/2009/03/downloadable-web-fonts/ linked to me and gave me a thousand visitors
  980. # [17:46] <Dashiva> You crashed my opera :(
  981. # [17:46] <Philip`> Oh
  982. # [17:46] <Philip`> http://bugs.opera.com/ ;-)
  983. # [17:46] <Dashiva> It was an outdated build anyhow. Good chance to upgrade.
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  1001. # [18:13] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  1002. # [18:14] <jgraham> Philip`: You try to help people and all you get is grief
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  1004. # [18:20] <Philip`> Hmm, my html-to-xhtml page is almost accepted by the validator, so I'm not sure why Dr Hoffmann thinks it's "completely corrupted" and "nonsense"
  1005. # [18:20] <gsnedders> What page?
  1006. # [18:20] <Philip`> http://services.philip.html5.org/html-to-xhtml/
  1007. # [18:20] <gsnedders> That's nonsense.
  1008. # [18:21] <Philip`> If someone is going to complain about the page, they should complain about how it refers to itself as "http://whatever-this-site-is-called/html-to-xhtml/"
  1009. # [18:21] <Philip`> which is because it didn't have a domain name at all until earlier today, and I didn't bother editing the HTML
  1010. # [18:21] <Dashiva> hehe
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  1017. # [18:23] <jgraham> There is always something suspicious about people to refer to themselves using their academic qualifications
  1018. # [18:23] <Dashiva> I'm a bit confused here. Isn't the main use for svg in html handcoding?
  1019. # [18:24] <jgraham> And about people who refer to adademic qualifications when they are quoting people
  1020. # [18:24] <Dashiva> If you use a tool, wouldn't you have a separate file to begin with?
  1021. # [18:27] <Philip`> Indeed, Dr Graham
  1022. # [18:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  1023. # [18:29] * jgraham notes he has not actually graduated yet
  1024. # [18:29] <Philip`> Dashiva: The problem is that you're ignoring the mythical authoring tools that will let you edit SVG that's embedded inside HTML files
  1025. # [18:29] * gsnedders cracks his whip
  1026. # [18:29] <gsnedders> Graduate, bitch!
  1027. # [18:31] * jgraham isn't sure he likes being gsnedders bitch
  1028. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Philip`: I suppose so. I don't see what they offer over existing standalone tools though.
  1029. # [18:32] <Philip`> Dashiva: They offer supporting evidence for arguments which assume they exist
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  1031. # [18:32] <jgraham> Dashiva: You're not an Amaya user? Heretic!
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  1034. # [18:32] <Dashiva> It's my sense of logic, it just won't let go :(
  1035. # [18:33] <jgraham> Also I saw a presentaion once about another similar tool, so I think they exist for a literal value of exist
  1036. # [18:34] <Dashiva> I am convinced some people implement things just to confound multiple choice exams
  1037. # [18:34] <Dashiva> "SMTP uses TCP/IP" --- "No, I know for a fact you can run SMTP using monkeys and bongo drums"
  1038. # [18:37] <Philip`> "What colour are elephants? (a) Grey; (b) Pink; (c) Fluorescent orange so they don't lose each other in the dark" -- "They're definitely pink"
  1039. # [18:37] <Philip`> I blame http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7951331.stm
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  1044. # [19:02] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  1046. # [19:03] <scherkus> quick question: are there specs for applying CSS styles to form elements?
  1047. # [19:05] <jgraham> scherkus: AFAIK, no
  1048. # [19:05] <jgraham> But IANACE
  1049. # [19:05] <scherkus> help me out here.. what's CE stand for :)
  1050. # [19:06] <jgraham> CSS Expert :)
  1051. # [19:06] <scherkus> gotcha :D
  1052. # [19:06] <scherkus> I attended a panel at SXSW last week and someone had a presentation at all the inconsistencies
  1053. # [19:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Why not?
  1054. # [19:07] <scherkus> its even broken for the same browser on different platforms
  1055. # [19:07] <jgraham> scherkus: I believe they are considered replaced elements from a CSS-theory standpoint
  1056. # [19:07] <jgraham> But of course that is not true in practice
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  1058. # [19:08] <jgraham> (the idea was that users would prefer native-looking widgets on all web pages. This turns out to not quite be true)
  1059. # [19:08] <scherkus> well for example, safari 4 beta applies "width" differently
  1060. # [19:09] <scherkus> mac: http://www.flickr.com/photos/teleject/3353399474/ (left aligned)
  1061. # [19:09] <scherkus> win: http://www.flickr.com/photos/teleject/3352574769/ (centered)
  1062. # [19:09] <scherkus> however this was a panel by and for web designers
  1063. # [19:09] <scherkus> people who typically style form elements heavily
  1064. # [19:11] * jgraham notes that HTML has error correction and seems to be doing OK'
  1065. # [19:12] <jgraham> scherkus: I think it is a known problem. But it is hard to solve
  1066. # [19:12] * Philip` supposes people's definitions of "OK" may differ
  1067. # [19:12] <scherkus> jgraham: cool.. thanks for the help
  1068. # [19:14] * jgraham thinks that anyone whos definition of OK excludes (probably) the world'smost popular document format needs a new definition of "doing OK"
  1069. # [19:15] <Philip`> "common", not "popular"
  1070. # [19:16] <jgraham> pedant
  1071. # [19:16] <jgraham> Alhough I think that probably depends on the definition of "popular"
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  1073. # [19:16] <Philip`> I suppose you think influenza is a good design that should be copied too, since it's been wildly successful at becoming widespread
  1074. # [19:17] <Dashiva> It _is_ copied all the time :P
  1075. # [19:18] <jgraham> If you are trying to make a virus, that is true
  1076. # [19:18] <Dashiva> Not to mention viral marketing
  1077. # [19:18] <Philip`> Dashiva: I said "should be", not "is" :-)
  1078. # [19:19] <Dashiva> Doesn't vaccine development require copying it a lot? :)
  1079. # [19:20] <Philip`> Bah, that's not what I mean :-p
  1080. # [19:22] <Philip`> If you're trying to make a virus that kills millions then it may be good to copy the characteristics of existing viruses, and if you're trying to make a new HTML then it may be good to copy the characteristics of HTML, but that's all largely irrelevant if you're trying to make an embeddable vector graphics language or a car or anything else
  1081. # [19:23] <Philip`> e.g. maybe your goal is to let advanced users do useful things as easily as possible, rather than making it possible for everybody in the world to publish their own thoughts
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  1083. # [19:24] <Philip`> so it's not particularly helpful to compare it to HTML
  1084. # [19:24] <Philip`> (and can be actively misleading)
  1085. # [19:24] <Philip`> or, uh, something like that
  1086. # [19:25] <Dashiva> Let's make a compiler that explodes if you make an error
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  1088. # [19:30] <Philip`> That would be better than some compilers I use, which explode even when I haven't made an error
  1089. # [19:35] <Philip`> rubys: s/OATH/OAUTH/ on the meeting minutes? (I would edit it myself but I'm too lazy to register on the wiki so I won't)
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  1091. # [19:46] <rubys> fixed. Thanks!
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  1104. # [20:27] <jgraham> rubys1: s/Power/Powder/ ?
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  1106. # [20:34] * Joins: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  1107. # [20:34] <rubys1> jgraham: do you have a link to powder? I don't know what this is, or who the Aaron is that they were referring to.
  1108. # [20:35] <rubys1> http://www.w3.org/2007/02/powder_charter
  1109. # [20:37] <jgraham> rubys1: Yeah that's what I was thinking of
  1110. # [20:37] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1111. # [20:37] <rubys1> any idea on aaron's last name?
  1112. # [20:39] <jgraham> Nope
  1113. # [20:40] <jgraham> All I know is that it is something chaals is involved with
  1114. # [20:45] <danbri> powder is an attempt to do the bit of PICS that RDF never handled: writing metadata labels for whole batches of pages who share eg common URI structure
  1115. # [20:46] <danbri> "everything on pics.playboy.com is a rude jpeg" etc
  1116. # [20:46] <danbri> different sense of pics there, sorry :)
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  1118. # [20:50] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@131.107.204.126)
  1119. # [20:53] <Hixie> rubys1: i'm guessing aaron is eran?
  1120. # [20:54] <rubys1> that makes more sense
  1121. # [20:55] <rubys1> Hammer-Lahav presumably?
  1122. # [20:57] <danbri> yeah, my guess too
  1123. # [20:57] <rubys1> updated
  1124. # [20:57] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  1125. # [21:03] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host86-133-17-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  1126. # [21:06] <rubys> hixie: any other errata or significant omissions?
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  1128. # [21:14] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-8ebde97631d28e88)
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  1143. # [22:07] * gsnedders sighs
  1144. # [22:08] <gsnedders> At lunch today, group of friends concluded that I was the girl of the group. The only girl (biologically speaking, that is) agreed.
  1145. # [22:08] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) (Client Quit)
  1146. # [22:09] <Philip`> Biologicality is overrated
  1147. # [22:09] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-80-99-193-98.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  1148. # [22:10] <gsnedders> Also, I'm apparently a lesbian.
  1149. # [22:12] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
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  1154. # [22:28] <olliej> gsnedders: heheh
  1155. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Maybe I really should take up takkaria's suggestion of wearing a corset, kilt, and heels to the ball…
  1156. # [22:30] <gsnedders> There again, I did tell my date to the ball of his suggestion, and she said she'd desert me! :'(
  1157. # [22:30] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64)
  1158. # [22:31] <takkaria> being a lesbian isn't so bad
  1159. # [22:32] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@131.107.204.126)
  1160. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Knowing how pissed off I am at guys in general at the moment I guess I could pass as a lesbian…
  1161. # [22:35] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1162. # [22:36] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  1163. # [22:38] <dglazkov> ping Hixie
  1164. # [22:42] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@65.210.82.235)
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  1166. # [22:43] <Hixie> dglazkov: here
  1167. # [22:43] <dglazkov> I came here to cry about test 48
  1168. # [22:44] <dglazkov> and the definition of "visited"
  1169. # [22:45] <dglazkov> Hixie: did you have a specific part of CSS spec in mind that this test tests?
  1170. # [22:51] <dglazkov> Hixie: acid3 test 48, obviously
  1171. # [22:51] * Hixie looks
  1172. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Because Hixie has never written any other test suite with 48 tests in it :P
  1173. # [22:52] <Hixie> dglazkov: i think the test just checks the definition at http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#link
  1174. # [22:54] <dglazkov> Hixie: yep. but with arrival of ubiquitous iframes-at-load (ads, tracking, etc.) the definition of "visited" seems to have been somewhat tainted
  1175. # [22:54] <dglazkov> in other words, _I_ haven't visited those frames. They visited me
  1176. # [22:55] <dglazkov> so both FF and WebKit had to come up with a separate class of history items, visited links
  1177. # [22:56] <dglazkov> the items that are technically in your history, just not shown to you as a user
  1178. # [22:56] <dglazkov> because you haven't really visited them
  1179. # [22:57] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  1180. # [22:57] <dglazkov> I've been wrangling with this dichotomy and can't come up with a good answer
  1181. # [22:57] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  1182. # [22:57] <dglazkov> other than doing the same for chromium.
  1183. # [22:57] <dglazkov> but it just seems kinda wrong
  1184. # [22:57] <dglazkov> somehow
  1185. # [22:58] <Hixie> sorry, had a phone call
  1186. # [22:58] * Hixie reads up
  1187. # [22:58] <Hixie> yeah, i see the issue
  1188. # [22:58] <Hixie> i would just do what they do, to be honest
  1189. # [22:58] <Hixie> the problem is that sometimes there are sites that do show ocntent in iframes
  1190. # [22:58] <Hixie> and you want those to handle :link :visited too
  1191. # [22:58] <Dashiva> "Using your favorite web browser (Firefox by default), visit wp-admin/install.php within the directory into which you just installed WordPress on your web site."
  1192. # [22:58] <Hixie> even though the user never sees the url bar
  1193. # [22:58] <Hixie> consider e.g. a forum
  1194. # [22:59] <Hixie> where each forum page is its own iframed page
  1195. # [22:59] <Hixie> you'd want the links to become :visited
  1196. # [22:59] <Hixie> even though you'd never want to offer them in the autocomplete, and probably never directly in the history
  1197. # [22:59] <Hixie> (though you might offer the frame state in the history if you are some kind of god)
  1198. # [23:00] <dglazkov> Hixie: but this sucks
  1199. # [23:00] <dglazkov> Web sucks
  1200. # [23:00] <Hixie> known bug
  1201. # [23:00] <dglazkov> :)
  1202. # [23:00] <Hixie> :-)
  1203. # [23:00] <Hixie> evolved platforms tend to suck
  1204. # [23:00] <ojan> dglazkov: in soviet russia, frames visit you!
  1205. # [23:00] <Hixie> they also tend to be successful :-)
  1206. # [23:01] <dglazkov> ojan: ain't that the truth
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  1227. # Session Close: Fri Mar 27 00:00:00 2009

The end :)