/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [17:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [17:24] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  8. # [17:27] <annevk3> I'm considering having breakfast as well...
  9. # [17:28] <annevk3> Though at this point I might just combine it with dinner. I was initially blaming this on the timeshift, but that obviously doesn't work anymore.
  10. # [17:32] <eighty4> annevk3: have brunch
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  17. # [17:56] * gsnedders wonders whether hitting 3000 words is still possible today
  18. # [17:57] <Philip`> Depends on how strictly you define "today"
  19. # [17:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: 2009-03-29T00:00:00Z/PT24H0M0S
  20. # [18:00] <gsnedders> (The definition will change at 2009-03-30T00:00:00Z
  21. # [18:00] <jgraham> It depends on how strictly you define words
  22. # [18:00] <jgraham> and hitting
  23. # [18:01] * Philip` wonders if he's going to get horribly confused by his IRC client's clock being an hour away from local time
  24. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes, you will.
  25. # [18:02] * Philip` wonders how to change it
  26. # [18:03] <jgraham> My IRC client's clock is currently local time -7
  27. # [18:03] <Philip`> "/script exec $ENV{'TZ'}='Europe/London'" - oh, that was easy
  28. # [18:03] <fearphage> Philip`: http://wiki.fishcracker.net/wiki/Irssi#Changing_the_timezone
  29. # [18:04] <gsnedders> Too easy, some might say.
  30. # [18:04] <jgraham> Oh, that worked
  31. # [18:04] <Philip`> fearphage: Hmm, that wiki seems to be wrong about saying I need to restart irssi
  32. # [18:04] <jgraham> Now I know when people said things
  33. # [18:04] <jgraham> Which is boring
  34. # [18:05] <fearphage> Philip`: no, you just need to change the timezone and export it
  35. # [18:05] <fearphage> i'm working on upgrading irssi without disconnection from anything
  36. # [18:07] <fearphage> any of you have ie >6 handy?
  37. # [18:07] <Philip`> jgraham: Try TZ=Asia/Kathmandu if you don't want to even know what minute somebody said things
  38. # [18:08] <Philip`> fearphage: When it says "to change the timezone displayed within irssi, you'll need to quit irssi, export TZ to the desired variable (and optionally add it to ~/.bashrc), and restart irssi" it does seem to be (incorrectly) telling me I need to restart irssi
  39. # [18:09] <Philip`> although maybe I'm misinterpreting what your "no" was in response to
  40. # [18:10] <Philip`> fearphage: Isn't /upgrade already there for upgrading without disconnecting?
  41. # [18:11] <fearphage> yea, i'm trying to coordinate with the guy that owns the server
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  56. # [19:55] * gsnedders shakes head at Brain Boyd's notes on Nabokov's Ada…
  57. # [19:55] <gsnedders> "Has masturbation ever before been rendered so artfully, so lyrically? And has the grand passion at the heart of a great love story ever been introduced so insistently in terms of masturbation?"
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  69. # [20:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Does irssi do TZ=people/Hixie where say 08:00 would correspond to Hixie being at the point in his circadian cycle that would correspond to 8am for a normal person
  70. # [20:57] <jgraham> That would be highly useful
  71. # [21:00] <Philip`> jgraham: If you set up /usr/share/zoneinfo/people/Hixie then I'm sure it'd work fine
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  73. # [21:03] <jgraham> Philip`: How well would that deal with a constantly changing offset from UTC?
  74. # [21:09] <Philip`> jgraham: The same as it deals with DST in other timezones, except more frequent
  75. # [21:11] <Dashiva> Does it handle multiple DST modes, though?
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  77. # [21:12] * jgraham assumes other dst systems are more or less periodic and don't need to be updated multiple times per day
  78. # [21:12] <jgraham> So it's not clear that a system that works for one use case will work for another
  79. # [21:13] <jgraham> s/an/the /
  80. # [21:14] <annevk3> I wonder if tying Web SQL to SQLite is bad whether tying immediate-mode Web 3D to OpenGL is bad too... Or does this comparison not hold?
  81. # [21:16] <jgraham> Arguably the opengl thing is worse since opengl sucks under windows
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  83. # [21:17] <annevk3> That's my thinking. I wonder what roc thinks about this.
  84. # [21:17] <Philip`> OpenGL is a documented open standard with multiple implementations
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  86. # [21:17] <Philip`> SQLite is just an implementation
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  88. # [21:19] <annevk3> While that's certainly an argument, I'm not sure it matters much.
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  90. # [21:20] <Philip`> It matters because it means you're not forced to use a specific implementation
  91. # [21:20] <Philip`> You could e.g. write something that provides an OpenGL-like API but implements it using DirectX
  92. # [21:20] <Philip`> and the OpenGL standard tells you how your implementation is meant to work, so you don't have to reverse-engineer someone else's
  93. # [21:21] <annevk3> That's the plan for Web SQL too...
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  95. # [21:21] <Philip`> whereas the only way to implement something with an SQLite-compatible API is to reverse-engineer SQLite
  96. # [21:22] <jgraham> Philip`: That is a argument
  97. # [21:22] <jgraham> could you write an openGL wrapper with sensible perf though?
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  99. # [21:22] <Philip`> I don't see why not
  100. # [21:22] <Philip`> Wine has a DirectX wrapper implemented using OpenGL, and that works pretty well
  101. # [21:23] <Philip`> (And the web stuff is OpenGL ES, which has much less of the cruft that normal GL has, so it's a closer match to DirectX)
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  103. # [21:23] <Philip`> Of course shaders are likely to be a huge pain, though
  104. # [21:24] * jgraham doesn't know much about this stuff
  105. # [21:24] <jgraham> Does anyone know of an atompub client that actually works?
  106. # [21:24] <Philip`> (since GL shaders are written in GLSL, and DX shaders are written in HLSL, which are different syntaxes for pretty much the same functionality)
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  110. # [21:42] <annevk3> whoa, shader stuff looks complex
  111. # [21:42] <annevk3> what kind of language is that?
  112. # [21:43] <annevk3> (and is it guaranteed to be safe?)
  113. # [21:44] <Hixie> it's not
  114. # [21:44] <annevk3> Philip`, the problem is that writing wrappers for OpenGL is hard and likely to be ineffecient
  115. # [21:44] <annevk3> inefficient*
  116. # [21:44] <Hixie> browsers would need to precompile and verify them
  117. # [21:44] * gsnedders is way too close to including the word "masturbate" in his English dissertation
  118. # [21:45] <annevk3> ouch
  119. # [21:46] <annevk3> can you actually verify it?
  120. # [21:48] <Philip`> annevk3: They're all C-like languages, though without stuff like pointers
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  123. # [21:49] <Philip`> annevk3: I don't see why they'd be inefficient - the expensive parts of rendering are all handled by the hardware, and it doesn't matter whether the input came from DX-like API or a GL-like API
  124. # [21:49] <annevk3> Philip`, doesn't that mean it's impossible to figure out whether it will make things crash, leak memory, do evil things? there must be more to this since vlad & co know that won't work on the Web
  125. # [21:50] <Philip`> You can't leak memory because there's no memory allocation
  126. # [21:50] <Philip`> You can't crash because there's no memory protection
  127. # [21:50] <annevk3> Philip`, because you have to do more in software if the hardware doesn't have OpenGL drivers
  128. # [21:51] <Philip`> (Accessing arrays out of bounds is apparently undefined behaviour - I don't know what it does in practice)
  129. # [21:52] <annevk3> great
  130. # [21:52] <Philip`> You can do infinite loops but apparently at least some driver implementations have some kind of limit so you won't freeze your GPU
  131. # [21:54] <annevk3> I wonder at what point this Web thing becomes so complex it just falls over
  132. # [21:54] <Philip`> (kig (http://fhtr.blogspot.com/) has been doing some testing of GLSL-related stuff)
  133. # [21:55] <Philip`> annevk3: You wouldn't emulate the rendering in software - you'd translate everything into the native 3D-rendering API
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  135. # [21:56] <annevk3> Philip`, since OpenGL is so low-level, that's hard
  136. # [21:57] <Philip`> The basic concepts are stuff like "here's a bunch of triangle vertex coordinates and a shader program that says what to calculate for each one, please draw them now", and every API is basically providing the same thing
  137. # [21:58] <Philip`> s/for each one/for each pixel/
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  140. # [22:01] <Philip`> I hope that one benefit of doing the 3d-canvas stuff in Khronos is that the driver developers (NVIDIA, ATI, Intel) might get involved and help produce a new shader language that can safely run untrusted code, and then it could be usable in a few years
  141. # [22:02] <annevk3> if we get them on board that'd be great, yeah
  142. # [22:04] <takkaria> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6746 is a complete headfuck
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  151. # [22:27] <annevk3> takkaria, most of his feedback is, afaict
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  179. # [23:40] <annevk3> http://www.zeldman.com/2009/03/04/dwws-3e/ will cover HTML5 apparently
  180. # [23:40] <annevk3> I guess that is the second book after the Danish one?
  181. # [23:43] <annevk3> I guess I'll buy a copy to see what it says. English is something I can read :)
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  183. # [23:54] <Niictar> Heh, the Acid3 test makes the Wii version of Opera cry
  184. # [23:55] <Niictar> Or rather, running Acid3 in the Opera browsers makes the Wii cry and freeze and become unresponsive by test 40
  185. # Session Close: Mon Mar 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)