/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-07 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Apr 07 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <gsnedders> (and then proceeds as in the "Any other end tag" section below)
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# [00:35] <Hixie> anyone know what opera supports when it comes to <keygen>? dsa? pqg? keyparams?
# [00:35] <Hixie> annevk3?
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# [00:37] <annevk3> I think type="pkcs10" is an extension we have
# [00:38] <annevk3> Yngve e-mailed you with details
# [00:38] <annevk3> Not archived unfortunately but I guess that doesn't really matter
# [00:40] <Hixie> his e-mail didn't seem to cover pqg/keyparams
# [00:40] <Hixie> does that mean opera doesn't support them?
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# [00:41] <annevk3> It means I don't know
# [00:41] <annevk3> sorry
# [00:42] <Hixie> any chance you can find out? :-)
# [00:42] * Hixie considers dropping keygen after all
# [00:42] <Philip`> What's wrong with testing and reverse-engineering? :-)
# [00:43] <Hixie> i have no idea what to test or how
# [00:43] <Philip`> Look at the specification to see what it's meant to do, and then just see if it does that or not
# [00:44] <Hixie> what is this specification you speak of
# [00:45] <Philip`> Well, maybe it's not so much a specification as an opportunity for a specification
# [00:45] <Philip`> which is close enough
# [00:46] <annevk3> Hixie, any chance you can reply and ask yourself? I understand less of this than you
# [00:47] <Hixie> Philip`: until i looked at the gecko source code, i had no idea that there was a keyparams attribute at all, it's not documented anywhere
# [00:47] <Hixie> Philip`: and until i saw an obscure e-mail on the topic in some archives, i didn't know that "ec" was a valid keytype
# [00:47] <Hixie> Philip`: i have no idea how to reverse engineer what opera does short of asking them
# [00:47] <Hixie> annevk3: yeah, probably will
# [00:48] <Hixie> annevk3: basically all i'm looking for is a list of all the attributes and values that do something on keygen
# [00:48] <Hixie> annevk3: ideally with some documentation as to what they do and what their format is
# [00:48] <annevk3> there is http://web.archive.org/web/20070401073244/wp.netscape.com/eng/security/comm4-keygen.html
# [00:48] <annevk3> but it's not that useful
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# [00:50] * Philip` supposes it can be tricky to reverse-engineer a feature whose specific purpose is to produce results that cannot be reverse-engineered even with all the computing power in the world
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# [00:51] <olliej> Philip`: heheh
# [00:51] <annevk3> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTML/HTML_Extensions/KEYGEN_Tag has no documentation on the Gecko extension either
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# [00:56] <Hixie> lol
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# [00:56] <Hixie> after tracing this code very carefully all the way through to figure out how gecko uses the pqg attribute for dsa keys
# [00:57] <Hixie> and going through multiple quite obscure and poorly documented codepaths
# [00:57] <Hixie> i find this:
# [00:57] <Hixie> 605 case CKM_DSA_KEY_PAIR_GEN:
# [00:57] <Hixie> 606 // XXX Fix this! XXX //
# [00:57] <Hixie> 607 goto loser;
# [00:57] <Hixie> they don't support dsa at all!
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# [01:00] <Hixie> and i have no way to tell if changing an attribute value changes the result
# [01:00] <Hixie> since the result is PSEUDORANDOM BY DESIGN
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# [01:00] <Hixie> gah
# [01:00] <olliej> Hixie: keygen should generate a random 16bit value that gets used character by character using efficient xor encryption of utf16 data :D
# [01:00] <Hixie> i hate <keygen>
# [01:00] <olliej> Hixie: nice and easy to spec out
# [01:01] <olliej> Hixie: and efficient
# [01:01] <olliej> ;D
# [01:01] <Hixie> olliej: i don't think we'd get many interoperable implementations
# [01:01] <olliej> Hixie: of xor encryption? it's one line, even browser developers cna't screw up compatibility for that
# [01:01] <olliej> surely :D
# [01:01] <Hixie> oh i don't think complexity is why it'd be ignored...
# [01:03] <olliej> Hixie: oh you mean there just wouldn't be many implementations at all
# [01:03] <olliej> vs. multiple incompatible ones
# [01:03] <Philip`> You could try patching the source code to remove the randomness, to make it easier to test
# [01:03] * Philip` refrains from making any comments about Debian
# [01:03] <olliej> personally i'm for speccing out keygen based on xor encryption
# [01:03] <olliej> but mostly because i want to see the followup whatwg mail from security people :D
# [01:04] <olliej> i suspect it would be entertaining
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# [01:11] <jcranmer> everything should use, er, DES
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# [01:12] <olliej> jcranmer: xor!
# [01:12] <olliej> :D
# [01:12] <franksalim> Philip`, I think that counts as making a comment about Debian
# [01:13] <jcranmer> olliej: ROT-13... twice, for extra security!
# [01:13] <olliej> jcranmer: couple with double xor!
# [01:13] <olliej> jcranmer: it will be awesome!
# [01:14] <Philip`> olliej: Stream ciphers use XOR anyway, so you're not proposing anything new :-p
# [01:14] <olliej> Philip`: O_o
# [01:15] <Philip`> (XOR with an approximation of a one-time pad, in particular)
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# [02:32] <Hixie> uh oh, adam's patience is cracking
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# [02:43] <Hixie> not only is this <keygen> thing introducing me to completely new technologies and standards
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# [02:43] <Hixie> it's introducing me to completely new (to me) standards ORGANISATIONS.
# [02:44] * Hixie really could have gone his whole week without learning about the DER part of ASN.1 and not been any the poorer
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# [04:43] <Hixie> i just wrote a spec i don't understand
# [04:43] <Hixie> that generaly bodes badly
# [04:43] <Hixie> i hope there are no errors in it
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# [04:54] <olliej> Hixie: keygen?
# [04:54] <Hixie> yeah
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# [06:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about "key pair generator control", usual nit about possible ambiguity due to lack of hyphen for compound adjective (or whatever the correct grammar term is)
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> that is, should probably best be "key-pair generator control"
# [06:10] <MikeSmith> unless it means "key pair-generator control"
# [06:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: value of challenge attribute is just a string? not additional constraints on it?
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# [06:56] <shepazu> Hixie: ping
# [06:57] <Hixie> hey
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# [06:58] <Hixie> (my connection is extremely flaky, i apologise in advance if i go dark unexpectedly)
# [06:59] <shepazu> Hixie: I'm working on the final version of the WebApps charter
# [06:59] <shepazu> and I wanted to give the real names and timetables for the deliverables
# [07:00] <shepazu> so...
# [07:00] <Hixie> let's see
# [07:00] <Hixie> there are four i'm editing, right?
# [07:00] * Hixie goes to find out what they're called right now
# [07:00] <shepazu> Server-Sent Events, Web Sockets API, Web Storage, and Web Workers
# [07:01] <Hixie> sounds right
# [07:01] <Hixie> my optimistic timetable is FPWD ASAP, LC in October, CR in 2012, and REC in 2022 at the latest
# [07:02] <Hixie> REC will probably be far earlier for most of those
# [07:02] <shepazu> there's also Web DOM (silly name, if you ask me) which could arguably be added as a real-name of DOM Level 4
# [07:02] <Hixie> oh is XBL2 still on that list too?
# [07:02] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/webapps/charter-2009-proposed
# [07:02] <shepazu> XBL2, yes
# [07:03] <Hixie> the reason for having "Web" in the DOM Core spec is that it's forking away from the DOM Core implemented by server-side libraries
# [07:03] <Hixie> Does "DOM Level 4" include DOM Range and DOM Traversal?
# [07:04] * shepazu gets that, but is a little leary of not being explicit about that in the recent charter review
# [07:04] <shepazu> jiminy, I just don't know... I guess it's subject to interpretation
# [07:04] <Hixie> i might be roped into a DOM Range rewrite next year
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# [07:04] <Hixie> (there's growing pressure to fix that spec)
# [07:04] <shepazu> we are talking about it during the domain call tomorrow, and we really should straighten it out
# [07:05] <Hixie> (and add new APIs to it for things like rich text editing)
# [07:05] <shepazu> Hixie: arguably, that could be part of DOM4
# [07:05] <shepazu> but...
# [07:05] <shepazu> I propose that we write all of this up in the wiki and get our ducks in a row
# [07:06] <shepazu> I already feel like we are playing a little fast-and-loose on some of these
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# [07:06] <shepazu> Hixie: same timetable for all 4 of the "new" specs?
# [07:06] <shepazu> ok, that's easy for me
# [07:06] <Hixie> yeah
# [07:07] <Hixie> xbl's timetable as in the spec now is probably ok, though if we miss the expected date for REC i won't be surprised
# [07:07] <Hixie> hard for us to predict when REC will happen
# [07:07] <shepazu> I imagine we will have a new charter (and AC review) before then
# [07:07] <Hixie> yeah
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# [07:08] <shepazu> ok, if you could update the wiki with what you see as a sort of spec roundup and roadmap (for the specs you are involved in) that would help
# [07:08] <Hixie> uri?
# [07:08] <shepazu> even if it's beyond the scope of the current charter
# [07:08] <Hixie> not sure which wiki this is
# [07:09] <shepazu> anywhere in here: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Main_Page
# [07:09] <shepazu> I'm a little confused about where we are on XHR... I would have expected us to be long done with that
# [07:10] <Hixie> i think there is a "soft" dependency on html5, in that anne is wanting to be in sync with things like the event queue mechanism
# [07:10] <shepazu> happily, the Media Object/MAXIM spec looks to be obsoleted soon by the Media Annotations WG
# [07:10] <shepazu> so, I think that will probably drop out in the next charter
# [07:11] <shepazu> I'm also a little concerned about where the Origin header is headed
# [07:11] <shepazu> last I saw, Adam Barth pretty much said he wasn't going forward with it in IETF, so I'm not sure where that leaves CORS
# [07:12] <shepazu> and IETF collaboration in general...
# [07:12] <shepazu> sigh.
# [07:12] <Hixie> not sure what you want me to do on the wiki... should i just create a section called "hixie's drafts" and braindump into that? or a separate page?
# [07:13] <shepazu> heh... that would be fine... it might give some context... I can massage it into the larger framework
# [07:13] <Hixie> k
# [07:13] <shepazu> yeah, a new page... "future development"
# [07:13] <shepazu> thanks
# [07:13] <shepazu> not urgent, but when you get time...
# [07:14] <shepazu> the sooner the better, from the perspective of finalizing the current charter
# [07:14] <Hixie> doing it now
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# [07:15] <Hixie> i created an account but it doesn't seem to let me edit?
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# [07:15] <shepazu> wait a mo
# [07:15] <Hixie> ironically it seems fine with me _moving_ pages
# [07:16] <shepazu> oh, mediawiki...
# [07:17] <shepazu> ok, you should be able to edit now
# [07:17] <Hixie> cool thanks
# [07:17] <shepazu> yop
# [07:24] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Future_development
# [07:26] <Hixie> shepazu: it's probably time to call the time of death on the Window Object spec, too
# [07:26] <Hixie> realistically speaking i don't see anyone volunteering to do the significant work now required on that draft, and even if someone did come along, their time would probably be best spent doing more important things
# [07:27] <Hixie> speaking of more important things, is WebIDL on your list?
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# [07:27] <Hixie> oh, there it is
# [07:28] <Hixie> might be worth making that list alphabetical
# [07:31] <shepazu> working on that now
# [07:32] <shepazu> I'm not going to add or remove any deliverables until the WG formally decides to do so
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# [09:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: are you making <keygen> conforming?
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# [09:28] <Hixie> zcorpan: yes
# [09:30] <zcorpan> cool
# [09:31] * zcorpan looks at the diff
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# [09:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: is <marquee> next? :)
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# [09:51] <zcorpan> wonder if marquee can be implemented using css transitions
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# [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=75
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# [11:17] <MikeSmith> jgraham: is he there? poke him with a stick to wake
# [11:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: pong
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> hej
# [11:17] <jgraham> They don't give us long enough sticks here
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=474
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: you get longer sticks with more seniority
# [11:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think that's a case where hsivonen disagrees with what Hixie specced
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> ah
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> hmm, so I'm wondering to do with that test case as far as db.json/validator-tester.py goes
# [11:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think i had filed a bug about that already
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> oh
# [11:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: since i have a test case :)
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> I'll look and marked mine as a dupe if so
# [11:21] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=75 is a proposed fix for your just-a-hash test
# [11:22] <MikeSmith> ah, i find http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=323 also
# [11:22] <MikeSmith> "<img usemap=#> validates"
# [11:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for the charset thing, what Hixie specced would be a lot of work for Simplified Chineses encodings for the sake of theoretical purity without helping authors
# [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=75 looks good
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the encoding issue, I see
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> so I'm wondering what to do about test cases for that kind of stuff
# [11:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suppose the URLs could be listed in a text file in the same directory as the db.json
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# [11:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just a static file, you mean?
# [11:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. to remember which tests didn't go into the db for any reason
# [11:25] <MikeSmith> OK
# [11:25] <MikeSmith> willful-violations-of-html5.txt ?
# [11:25] <hsivonen> yeah :-)
# [11:25] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:25] <MikeSmith> I will make it so
# [11:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I plan to do a patch for keygen, and want to also write some test cases for it
# [11:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: great!
# [11:29] <MikeSmith> should I add them into svn, or put them at my own site and use db.json?
# [11:30] <hsivonen> I think having them is svn plus site somewhere & db.json would be ideal
# [11:30] <hsivonen> I'm not sure if whattf.org autoupdates to serve the tests over http
# [11:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think the tests will show up under http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/tests/ if you put them in svn
# [11:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know how often fantasai's script refreshes directory
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# [11:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I'll mess around with it a bit
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# [11:56] <gsnedders> Woah. RSS only allows enclosure URIs to be in the HTTP scheme.
# [11:57] <gsnedders> HTTPS is invalid.
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# [11:59] <Philip`> What about FTP?
# [12:00] <gsnedders> Invalid.
# [12:01] <Philip`> Shame
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# [12:08] <annevk3> hsivonen, you realize <keygen> is a major pain for you because Mozilla implements it like <isindex>?
# [12:13] <annevk3> hmm, RFC2459 has been obsoleted several times...
# [12:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: there is no parsing problem with <h1><p>Typeline</p><p>Mainline</p></h1>
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# [12:22] <hsivonen> annevk3: no, I haven't realized that yet
# [12:23] <hsivonen> annevk3: what about <keygen> in XHTML?
# [12:25] <zcorpan> hsivonen: html5 makes keygen a proper void element instead of an isindex-like parser macro
# [12:26] <Philip`> <keygen> in XHTML in Firefox (2) doesn't do anything at all
# [12:27] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/x.html?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Chtml%20xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml'%3E%3Cform%3E%3Ckeygen%20name%3D'x'%2F%3E%3Cinput%20type%3D'submit'%2F%3E%3C%2Fform%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E )
# [12:27] <zcorpan> hey how long have you had that xhtml viewer?
# [12:28] <Philip`> Since at least 2007-08-25
# [12:29] <zcorpan> you should make your tools easier to discover
# [12:29] <Philip`> But then people might use them
# [12:30] <Philip`> and it'll fill up my web server access logs because it sends a request for every keypress :-(
# [12:30] <zcorpan> then increase the timeout
# [12:31] <jgraham> You should make your tools easy to download so that we can run them locally and not fill your access logs :)
# [12:31] <annevk3> Yeah, Gecko has no <keygen> support in XHTML.
# [12:31] <annevk3> Opera does :)
# [12:32] <Philip`> zcorpan: You should have been paying attention when I linked to it on http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070825#l-262
# [12:32] <Philip`> I can't imagine why you'd fail to be aware of it
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# [12:33] <annevk3> WebKit expands it even in XHTML...
# [12:33] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe because the url was too similar to your html viewer that i didn't notice
# [12:34] <zcorpan> annevk3: we expand isindex in xhtml, too, though
# [12:35] <Philip`> jgraham: The server-side script is trivial (it just prints its query string) and the client-side stuff is just stolen from Hixie, so if anyone wants to set up something similar locally then it shouldn't take them any effort :-)
# [12:35] <Philip`> zcorpan: Bah, excuses
# [12:36] * Philip` admittedly did have to look on his web server over SFTP to work out what the URL of the tool was
# [12:38] <annevk3> zcorpan, yes, and <image>...
# [12:41] <hsivonen> what does Dead DOM Viewer do?
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# [12:41] <Philip`> It does the opposite of what the Live one does, hence the name
# [12:42] <Philip`> In particular it generates the page on the server rather than on the client
# [12:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: parses XML on the server and reseriales?
# [12:42] <Philip`> The purpose was to compare IE's processing of HTML in HTTP responses vs HTML in document.write
# [12:43] <Philip`> and then I added the XHTML version too, for which there isn't really any point having the server-side version
# [12:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, the server just echoes its query string
# [12:43] <hsivonen> hmm. <image> is magic in WebKit but in body--not directly in html
# [12:44] <hsivonen> why do I see HTML, HEAD, BODY in the dead viewer in WebKit?
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# [12:44] <hsivonen> oops. in Firefox
# [12:45] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/ is the non-XHTML version)
# [12:45] <hsivonen> it's as though the Live and Dead were swapped in Gecko and WebKit. what's going on?
# [12:46] <Philip`> It's possible that it's a bit buggy, and particularly that it could get confused about updating the DOM views at the right times
# [12:48] <Philip`> It's just a quick hack and probably shouldn't be relied on for anything important :-)
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# [12:49] <Philip`> (Even the name doesn't make any sense, but I've never cared enough to try fixing it)
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# [12:52] <Lachy> Hixie, now that webstorage has been split out, it's quite annoying and confusing that the where the openDatabase() method is listed in the IDL for Window is still in the HTML5 spec
# [12:56] <annevk3> yeah, there should probably be [XXX] interface Window { } in Web Storag
# [12:56] <annevk3> e
# [12:56] <annevk3> same goes for localStorage/sessionStorage
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# [13:16] <Lachy> I'll go file a bug about it
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# [13:24] <Lachy> We need to get a WebStorage component added to Bugzilla for the WebApps WG. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=WebAppsWG
# [13:25] <Lachy> I just filed the bug as an HTML5 spec bug instead
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# [15:27] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/725261/what-is-the-semantic-web
# [15:28] <Dashiva> The semantic web is like a box of chocolates
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# [15:40] <jgraham> More people misunderstanding <header>
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# [15:54] <hsivonen> <header> as currently defined, is FAIL
# [15:54] <hsivonen> s/,//
# [15:55] <annevk3> maybe we should just stick to a bunch of <div>s
# [15:55] <hsivonen> The W3C uses RDFa in text/html: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/
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# [15:59] <hsivonen> <header> should probably be split into <banner> (the case people think <header> is for) and <hgroup> for grouping <h1> and <h2>
# [16:00] <jgraham> <banner> sounds like <advert>
# [16:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: banner is from ARIA landmarks
# [16:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't particulary like the connotations of 'banner'
# [16:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: It's not my fault if aria does dumb things :)
# [16:01] <jgraham> Or rather I don't think we should feel compelled to spread those dumb things to the rest of html
# [16:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, HTML5 sucks here, too
# [16:01] <jgraham> Sure
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# [16:01] <jgraham> (Doesn't aria also have role="advertising" or something?)
# [16:01] <hsivonen> which reminds me that now that April 1st has passed, I should blog in reply to the adactio post.
# [16:02] <zcorpan> so this page http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/bonus/t/analysis2.tmpl?registration_option_id=7840 fails to work given these rules http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#dom-document-nameditem
# [16:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: the semantics of banner were changed not to imply advertising
# [16:02] <zcorpan> i wonder if the spec can be adjusted in some way
# [16:03] <zcorpan> the page does <object id=ie><comment><object id=moz><table><tr><td> </table>
# [16:03] <annevk3> zcorpan, why does it fail?
# [16:03] <zcorpan> along with if (null != document.moz) ... else if (null != document.ie) ... else return // error
# [16:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Anyway HTML5 should probably have <header> which means role="banner" and <hgroup> which means "compound heading"
# [16:03] <annevk3> ah, document.moz is not found?
# [16:03] <zcorpan> both objects are ignored because they have "fallback"
# [16:04] <zcorpan> right
# [16:04] <annevk3> maybe the innermost <object> or <embed> should count and the rest be ignored?
# [16:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think the words "header" and "heading" should be avoided in element naming
# [16:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Maybe. <banner> sucks at least as much though
# [16:05] <jgraham> Or rather "Yes"
# [16:05] <zcorpan> annevk3: i.e. an object is fallback-free if it doesn't have any object or embed descendants?
# [16:06] <annevk3> zcorpan, ja
# [16:06] <Philip`> jgraham: What's the use case for <header> in that case?
# [16:06] <zcorpan> makes sense i guess. what about <applet>? any other elements?
# [16:07] <annevk3> <applet name=x> <object name=x> </object> </applet> both are returned, no?
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# [16:07] <zcorpan> i was thinking about applet in object
# [16:07] <jgraham> Philip`: Authors like being able to structure their source in a readable way. It probably also helps with CSS selectors and maybe with a11y
# [16:08] <hsivonen> it would also be nice if Opera Mobile took it into account when guessing where the main content starts
# [16:08] <annevk3> zcorpan, good point
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# [16:09] <Philip`> jgraham: <div id=header> lets them structure their source in the same way, with the same readability
# [16:10] <annevk3> zcorpan, <img> too
# [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk3: not sure about <img>
# [16:10] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, if it maybe helps with a11y then we are morally required to include it
# [16:11] <zcorpan> annevk3: consider that page having a spacer gif instead of  
# [16:12] <annevk3> zcorpan, it seems that for Mozilla <applet>, <img> etc. do not matter
# [16:12] <annevk3> but neither does <embed>
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# [16:12] <annevk3> or <object>
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# [16:13] <annevk3> sigh
# [16:13] <jgraham> Philip`: <div id=header><div id=something><div></div>[...]</div> is not as easy to read as <header><div id=something><div></div>[...]</header>
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# [16:14] <jgraham> (similarly div#header is slightly harder to read in CSS than header)
# [16:15] <zcorpan> annevk3: moz does something like if (document.getElementById(x) && blah) else blah for document.x
# [16:15] <beowulf> i like <banner>
# [16:15] <webben> beowulf: banner is very ambiguous
# [16:15] <Philip`> jgraham: Try using indentation and quotes and then it'll be fine :-)
# [16:15] <webben> e.g. sometimes used for ads
# [16:16] <Philip`> But people won't use <banner> for ads because it would be trivial to filter
# [16:16] <annevk3> zcorpan, what is && blah?
# [16:16] <Philip`> therefore it'll be used only by people writing page headers
# [16:17] <beowulf> webben: probably, though not in my case, i've been reading about newspaper layout, terms, whatnot
# [16:18] <jgraham> Philip`: Indentation helps a bit. But it's still easier to read if the end tag matches the start tag
# [16:18] <jgraham> (otherwise everyone wwould love lisp :) )
# [16:18] <beowulf> and <banner> is probably not used for ads or anything right now :)
# [16:18] <Philip`> http://zepheira.com/news/releases/20070711.html mentions PURLs being critical to the Semantic Web - it seems strange to me that a Web should depend so much on a centralised repository; I guess they don't want to accept the true nature of the web, with its instability and ephemerality and general rubbishness
# [16:18] <Philip`> jgraham: s/lisp/Python/
# [16:18] <zcorpan> annevk3: && document.getElementById(x) is one of img, embed, etc
# [16:19] <Philip`> jgraham: and everyone does love Python
# [16:19] <Philip`> jgraham: therefore disproving your argument
# [16:19] * Philip` wins
# [16:19] <jgraham> Philip`: No because python doesn't have end tags
# [16:19] <annevk3> zcorpan, I can't really reproduce that
# [16:19] <jgraham> or whatever
# [16:19] <Philip`> jgraham: It does have end tags - they're just invisible DEDENT tokens
# [16:19] <jgraham> :p
# [16:20] <jgraham> Philip`: Right but they're not in the source
# [16:20] <jgraham> Er, that made no sense
# [16:20] <Philip`> jgraham: How can you tell the invisible tokens aren't in the source?
# [16:20] <Philip`> jgraham: They're invisible!
# [16:20] <zcorpan> annevk3: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cembed%20id%3Dx%3E%3Cembed%20id%3Dx%3E%3Cscript%3Ew%28document.x%29%3C%2Fscript%3E
# [16:21] <Philip`> jgraham: It's possible that I'm completely misunderstanding your argument
# [16:21] * webben is getting a vision of a lolcat version of this "invisible end tag" argument.
# [16:21] <jgraham> I think what I mean is that the python philosophy of uniform indentation as a marker doesn't transfer well onto the web
# [16:22] <jgraham> Because the web doesn't enforce uniform indentation
# [16:22] <annevk3> zcorpan: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cimg%20name%3Dx%3E%3Cembed%20id%3Dx%3E%3Cscript%3Ew(document.x)%3C%2Fscript%3E
# [16:23] <Philip`> jgraham: but people do seem to prefer programming languages where end tags aren't like start tags, e.g. C (and JavaScript and Java etc) and Python, vs Basic (if ... endif) and Bash (if ... fi)
# [16:23] <Philip`> s/people/I/
# [16:24] <Philip`> Anyway, I've forgotten how this discussion started or what I was trying to say
# [16:24] <Philip`> s/or/and/
# [16:24] <annevk3> zcorpan, maybe reverse engineering WebKit is more sane or does it also fail on that page?
# [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk3: webkit also fails
# [16:24] <zcorpan> annevk3: webkit, opera and html5 do basically the same thing
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# [16:26] <hsivonen> whee! "The XPath evaluator must never call this with a null or empty argument, because the result of doing this is undefined."
# [16:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is that a normative condition on user code?
# [16:26] <jgraham> s/user/web developer/
# [16:26] <annevk3> zcorpan, yeah. I guess doing what Firefox does breaks some other set of pages?
# [16:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's a normative statement on XPath implentations, so no
# [16:27] <zcorpan> annevk3: likely. it's also less sane and less compatible with ie
# [16:27] <zcorpan> last i looked
# [16:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ah, OK
# [16:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: though it seems to me calling into user code can be undefined :-)
# [16:27] <hsivonen> in any case :-)
# [16:28] <Philip`> But is it defined that the user code must follow certain rules?
# [16:28] <annevk3> zcorpan, ignoring <object> if it has a descendant named element maybe?
# [16:28] * hsivonen wonders what happens if XPathNSResolver returns the empty string
# [16:28] <annevk3> zcorpan, it seems a bit risky though
# [16:31] <annevk3> zcorpan, and it's hard to get good data on this though I suppose we could try to get anedotical data
# [16:31] <annevk3> anecdotal, even
# [16:31] <zcorpan> i'm all for doing research :)
# [16:35] <annevk3> maybe Philip` can find pages that have <object id=... or name=...> + child nodes
# [16:36] <zcorpan> ignoring <param> and whitespace
# [16:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: ^
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# [16:39] <hsivonen> do markers ever come off the list of active formatting elements in ways other than via "clear up to last marker"?
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# [16:49] <Philip`> annevk3: I can find <object id> and <object name> easily
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# [16:58] <hsivonen> aaargh. Gecko allows an XPathNSResolver to return "" to bind a prefix to no namespace
# [16:59] <hsivonen> doesn't work in WebKit
# [17:00] <hsivonen> nor in Opera
# [17:00] <hsivonen> maybe there's hope for zapping that behavior from Gecko, too.
# [17:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: can you easily find <object id/name> that have child elements other than <param>?
# [17:02] <Philip`> annevk3: Actually, I could find them easily if I had a decent XML grep tool that actually worked
# [17:02] <Philip`> but I don't
# [17:03] <Philip`> so you can have http://philip.html5.org/data/object-with-id-or-name.xml.bz2 which is all <object>s
# [17:03] <Philip`> and feel free to write code to extract what you want from it
# [17:03] <Philip`> (That's directed to zcorpan too :-) )
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# [17:06] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
# [17:07] * Philip` hopes the structure of that file is sufficiently obvious
# [17:07] <Philip`> (Hooray for human-readable file formats)
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# [17:13] <zcorpan> hmm bad idea to open that xml file in a browser
# [17:14] <Philip`> It's only 20MB
# [17:14] <Philip`> Oh, but I suppose it has a few <object>s
# [17:14] <zcorpan> almost 27000 object elements
# [17:14] <Philip`> which browsers sillily try to interpret
# [17:14] <Philip`> despite it not even being in an <html>
# [17:15] * zcorpan removes namespace declarations
# [17:15] * Philip` didn't add namespace declarations on purpose, they were just what his XML serialiser did
# [17:15] <zcorpan> oops, my script didn't escape <
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# [17:16] <zcorpan> ok so 2600 don't have an embed descendant
# [17:17] <zcorpan> <object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" height="475" id="mymovie" width="830">
# [17:17] <zcorpan> <param name="movie" value="../images/home.swf"/>
# [17:17] <zcorpan>
# [17:17] <zcorpan> <object data="../images/home.swf" height="475" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="830">
# [17:17] <zcorpan>
# [17:17] <zcorpan> <p>
# [17:17] <zcorpan> <img alt="Our applications fields : Veterinary Lab, Haematology and Pathology" height="475" src="../images/homepics.jpg" width="830"/>
# [17:19] <zcorpan> http://www.orphee-medical.com/ ...if the inner object had an id then i think we'd want document.id to match it despite the <img>
# [17:21] <zcorpan> 298 have nested object elements
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# [17:34] <zcorpan> copy-paste has resulted in lots of "FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this)."
# [17:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: take note - don't write copy-paste examples as test cases
# [17:36] * zcorpan will continue tomorrow
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# [17:40] <Philip`> Where does that FAIL come from originally?
# [17:40] <Philip`> All I see is http://www.adobe.com/jp/devnet/flash/articles/swfobject_05.html
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# [17:57] <hsivonen> I'm amused to find that Opera already violates XPath invariants in a way that cannot be explained by a custom DOM-to-XDM mapping
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# [18:21] * jgraham notes that hsivonen is probably the first person in the history of all creation to be aused by XPath
# [18:21] <jgraham> *amused
# [18:27] * Hixie gets off the phone with a yahoo searchmonkey engineer
# [18:27] <Hixie> who had very interesting insights into rdf in html
# [18:28] <gsnedders> Wait, what?
# [18:28] <gsnedders> "Hixie gets off the phone" — Does not compute.
# [18:28] <Hixie> i had to come to work and go to my cube to do this
# [18:28] <jgraham> Hixie: Are you just teasing us with confidential information?
# [18:28] <Hixie> first time i've been here in months
# [18:28] <Hixie> jgraham: no
# [18:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: I guessed you were at work from the lack of a phone anywhere else :P
# [18:29] <Hixie> paraphrasing, and apologies if i misrepresent his opinions, he pointed out that microformats were prettier but there was the perception of lack of extensibility
# [18:30] <jgraham> So far, so few surprises
# [18:30] <Hixie> and that the lack of a clear mapping to RDF actually did hurt their use of microformats
# [18:30] <gsnedders> GRDDL!
# [18:30] <Hixie> but that the rdfa syntax, use of URIs as identifiers, and the need to use explicit URIs that aren't the Web page's own URI as subjects were all things that caused confusion
# [18:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: Doesn't GRDDL have some weird thing that the author needs to provide the GRDDL?
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# [18:31] <gsnedders> I dunno.
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# [18:31] <gsnedders> I thought it was something along the lines of @profile being magic
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# [18:31] * jgraham thought that GRDDL was basically a way of using an XSLT stylesheet to transform some HTML into some RDF
# [18:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, basically
# [18:32] <jgraham> And that the author had to put the link to the sty;esheet in @profile
# [18:32] <Hixie> no
# [18:32] <Hixie> they have to put a link to a page that has a link to the xslt
# [18:33] <jgraham> Ah, yes, I guess it it important to be correct on that point. @profile is an option for the link :)
# [18:34] <jgraham> Hixie: So the summary is that Yahoo would be better served by something with simpler syntax than RDFa but an easier extensibility story than microformats
# [18:34] <jgraham> ?
# [18:35] <gsnedders> Are free video downloads from iTunes encumbered?
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# [18:44] <Philip`> jgraham: And by something with "a clear mapping to RDF"
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# [18:46] <jgraham> Philip`: Good point
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# [18:57] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah
# [18:59] <jgraham> Good luck convincing W3C that URIs are part of the problem, not part of the solution :)
# [19:00] <Hixie> no need, so long as we define a way to map strings to URIs without having to declare prefixes explicitly
# [19:01] <jgraham> I guess I can't complain since I have previously advocated that approach. But it does seem like adding another layer of indirection to paper over the problem
# [19:01] <jgraham> It also seems like the only plausible way forward
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# [19:14] <Hixie> i don't understand what http://www.w3.org/mid/b6bb4d890904070441p248bedccsaf3f2971f282c18@mail.gmail.com would mean, concretely
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# [19:19] <Philip`> Something about taking fancy new web technologies and making them usable by normal web developers, I guess
# [19:19] <Philip`> though that's still not exactly concrete
# [19:22] <Philip`> Also it might be talking about making HTML more attractive to teenage girls
# [19:24] <webben> Looks like it just means deliver the key features needed for webapps fast.
# [19:24] <mpilgrim> i think it's more along the lines of "we need a site like chromeexperiments.com to showcase html 5"
# [19:24] <mpilgrim> html5experiments.com?
# [19:24] <mpilgrim> i think that's just called annevankesteren.nl
# [19:28] <Philip`> That's the catwalk
# [19:30] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: But he does SVG too! That's an SVG experiment!
# [19:32] <Philip`> Topshop would be making it so ordinary people can create sites like that, or like Gmail, without it being insanely hard and insufficiently general-purpose
# [19:37] <jgraham> Compsring html5 to topshop? This must be some sort of new low
# [19:38] <gsnedders> I thought we had already got as low as we can go.
# [19:40] <jgraham> Do we have any examples of really crappy but popular html 5? We could call them the html 5 "new look"
# [19:41] <jgraham> Straw poll: "data is" or "data are"?
# [19:41] <gsnedders> is
# [19:42] <gsnedders> (Even though I'm well-aware that's technically incorrect.)
# [19:42] <Philip`> Avoid phrases that force you to make the distinction, because you'll annoy somebody no matter which you choose
# [19:43] <Philip`> ('is' will annoy people because it's wrong, 'are' will annoy people because it's stupid and ugly)
# [19:43] <inimino> depends if you are treating data as a plural or as a mass noun
# [19:43] <jgraham> Philip`: The hidden context is teaching english to non-native speakers
# [19:43] <gsnedders> data is the plural of datum, so it should never be singular
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# [19:44] <Philip`> Have you ever heard anybody use the word "datum"?
# [19:44] <jcranmer> I've used it once or twice
# [19:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't think that is a good argument becaue it doesn't preclude data also being used as a mass noun
# [19:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes
# [19:45] <Philip`> particularly somebody who isn't sounding unbelievably pretentious when saying it? ;-)
# [19:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: Um, no.
# [19:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I rarely hear people who don't sound unbelievably pretentious
# [19:45] <jcranmer> I believe ArcGIS uses datum
# [19:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just by speaking?
# [19:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
# [19:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have really chavvy standards :)
# [19:46] <gsnedders> :D
# [19:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: And dude, chav is _so_ last year.
# [19:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: Probably depends where you are from a bit
# [19:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: "_so_" is so last year, too
# [19:47] <gsnedders> (Well, really it's several years ago here.)
# [19:47] <gsnedders> It's all about the neds nowadays
# [19:48] <jcranmer> ... ばか
# [19:48] <gsnedders> Huh?
# [19:48] <gsnedders> UnknownLanguageException
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# [19:49] <jcranmer> can't recognize hiragana, can you?
# [19:49] * gsnedders catches the exception, and carries on
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# [19:49] <Philip`> noun 1. bonehead [sl.] 2. clod [sl.] 3. stupidity
# [19:50] <Philip`> Being unable to translate between languages is _so_ last year
# [19:51] <jcranmer> ...
# [19:51] <jcranmer> あほ
# [19:52] <Philip`> "Idiot"?
# [19:52] <Philip`> Google Translate isn't so good on that
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# [19:53] <jcranmer> closer to asshole, IIRC
# [19:54] <jcranmer> much stronger form of ばか
# [19:55] * Philip` was looking at http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fja.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3A%E7%B4%A2%E5%BC%95_%E3%81%82%E3%81%BB&sl=ja&tl=en&history_state0=ja%7Cen%7C%E3%81%82%E3%81%BB
# [19:55] <Philip`> which includes "Idiot, right (State of Arizona)" - I'm not sure what that's meant to mean
# [19:56] <Philip`> "Idiot, right (Ajo), southern Arizona, United States, the city is located in PIMA County. Towns and cities in the official land belongs not to be determined, CDP. The population is 3,705 people (2000 census)."
# [19:57] <gsnedders> What's .ta?
# [19:57] <jcranmer> `Ajo' sounds like it's from spanish origins
# [19:57] <jcranmer> so it's pronunciation is like `Aho'
# [19:57] <jcranmer> or, should I say, ah-ho
# [19:58] <jcranmer> transliterate that into Japanese to get, in the rōmaji form aho
# [19:58] <jcranmer> あほ == aho
# [19:58] <Philip`> I guess it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajo,_Arizona but that page doesn't talk about idiots at all
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# [19:58] <jcranmer> google's not picking up the fact that it's a transliterations
# [19:58] <gsnedders> Meh. It's meant to be raining in Dundee for the next couple of days.
# [19:59] <jcranmer> yep
# [20:00] <jcranmer> the wikipedia page has it in katakana--which is generally how you write transliterated proper names in Japanese
# [20:00] <jcranmer> so あほ and アホ are both aho, but the former would be the word aho and the latter the place Aho
# [20:01] <jcranmer> or the name, if someone were cruel enough to name someone that :-)
# [20:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Move to Fort William. Then it would always be raining so you wouldn't get so disappointed
# [20:01] * gsnedders went to Fort William once…
# [20:01] <gsnedders> It wasn't raining.
# [20:01] <gsnedders> Also: I doubt Fort William has anywhere to buy a suit from.
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# [20:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think it does. But I only went there once too (and I think it was raining)
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# [20:04] <gsnedders> (If I didn't need to get a suit, I would have no reason to go to Dundee.)
# [20:04] <gsnedders> It's no better in Edinburgh, so I don't gain anything by going their instead.
# [20:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: There are places that will sell suits where it is unlikely to be raining
# [20:05] <jgraham> Saudia Arabia for example
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# [20:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: They are not however practical places to go to get a suit
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# [20:05] <erlehmann> can anyone with working ff 3.5 or opera 10 test this ? http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/interview-moot-of-4chan-part-1
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# [20:05] <takkaria> I daresay Saudia Arabia is a more practical place than say, Devon
# [20:06] <gsnedders> Wednesday afternoon is meant to be all right in Dundee.
# [20:06] <takkaria> or Blackpool
# [20:06] <gsnedders> takkaria: Why?
# [20:06] <takkaria> well, Blackpool's a bit naff really, isn't it?
# [20:06] <gsnedders> Dunno. Never been there.
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# [20:07] <erlehmann> got it — the server must serve the file using the correct MIME type
# [20:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: On he other hand if the only options are dundee or Edinburgh, at least Edinburgh is nice
# [20:08] <gsnedders> That is true.
# [20:09] <gsnedders> Also, Dundee wastes less time
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# [21:07] <gsnedders> erlehmann: "spending […] every" should be "spending… I was up every"
# [21:07] <erlehmann> thanks
# [21:07] <gsnedders> His speech is too quick
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# [21:09] <gsnedders> erlehmann: "site […] seven servers," "site. I rearranged seven servers,"
# [21:11] <erlehmann> gsnedders, actually, i did have the impression of understanding him when sitting on the opposing side of the desk
# [21:12] <gsnedders> erlehmann: It's just about comprehsible, speech like that, when you're close to them, they're not projecting their voice, and it's not recorded :)
# [21:12] <erlehmann> i hate AMR now
# [21:12] <erlehmann> another reason to root my new googlephone
# [21:19] <Philip`> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/cfd5af38abc6
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# [22:21] * gsnedders guesses he ought to let the outliner just take a textarea
# [22:21] <gsnedders> Seemingly multiple people ahve asked for it
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# [22:34] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yt?
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# Session Close: Wed Apr 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)