/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] * Hixie finds himself writing long winding sentences and wonders if maybe half way through he should plant a signpost with a map and "you are here"
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  9. # [00:45] <MikeSmith> about http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090414#l-407 - validator.nu has some special handling/reporting of a few obsolete elements
  10. # [00:45] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://validator.nu/?=&doc=http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/obsolete/center.html
  11. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> it reports them as "Error: The center element is obsolete."
  12. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> whereas it would otherwise report them as "Error: Element center not allowed as child of element body in this context."
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  17. # [00:55] <sayrer> the center element is obsolete?
  18. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> it is in the HTML5 draft, yeah
  19. # [00:55] <sayrer> obsolete, works great, news at 11
  20. # [00:55] <Hixie> it doesn't work great
  21. # [00:55] <Hixie> it's like the <font> element
  22. # [00:56] <Hixie> leads to terribly inaccessible sites
  23. # [00:56] <Hixie> and is a maintenance nightmare
  24. # [00:56] <Hixie> even HTML4 acknowledges that
  25. # [00:56] <sayrer> maintenance nightmare doesn't seem like a good argument
  26. # [00:56] <Hixie> to you maybe :-)
  27. # [00:56] <sayrer> since the alternatives are still available
  28. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> sayrer: it's not valid in XHTML strict either, right?
  29. # [00:56] <sayrer> XHTML is not relevant to me
  30. # [00:57] <sayrer> (or anyone else on the Web, but I digress)
  31. # [00:57] <sayrer> Hixie, how does it lead to inaccessible sites?
  32. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> <center> is not in HTML 4.01 strict either
  33. # [00:59] <Hixie> sayrer: it scares me that you are editing an html specification and are asking that question
  34. # [00:59] <sayrer> well, that's not really an answer
  35. # [01:00] <Hixie> i really don't have the time to teach you elementary web design, sorry
  36. # [01:00] <Hixie> i'm sure you can find a plethora of tutorials on the subject on the web though
  37. # [01:01] <sayrer> I have seen many examples of the font element being used in an inaccessible fashion
  38. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, fwiw, the way the obsolete-element handling is implemented in v.nu is that the obsolete elements are part of the v.nu/whattf HTML5 RelaxNG schema -- treated as valid (that's the only way to get the schema to recognize them -- but an additional assertions-checking step further along in the processing pipeline then catches and reports them
  39. # [01:01] <sayrer> but why is it different than an equivalent style attribute?
  40. # [01:02] <Hixie> it's not. style="" attributes are just as bad and should be limited to things like prototyping and temporary workarounds.
  41. # [01:03] <sayrer> Hixie, ok, is style="" obsolete in HTML5 as well?
  42. # [01:03] <Hixie> it was, for a long time. there are some edge cases for which it is useful (primarily prototyping), which is why it is currently allowed.
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  44. # [01:04] <sayrer> Hixie, <font> works better for fragments
  45. # [01:04] <sayrer> sad but true, perhaps
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  47. # [01:05] <Hixie> i really am not interested in arguing this case right now; i need to finish the <datagrid> redesign.
  48. # [01:05] <Hixie> there are ample essays on the subject on the web that can enlighten you on the subject though.
  49. # [01:05] <sayrer> well, no one invited you to argue it. carry on!
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  52. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I wonder if it would make sense to switch the order of processing in v.nu such that the assertions checking is done prior to the schema checking in the processing pipeline
  53. # [01:20] <webben> sayrer: "how does it lead to inaccessible sites?" it doesn't _necessarily_.
  54. # [01:20] <webben> sayrer: Presentational markup can produce inaccessible sites indirectly if style rather than semantic markup is depended upon for communication.
  55. # [01:20] <sayrer> webben, I definitely agree there are bad things
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  58. # [01:21] <sayrer> webben, I don't think "presentational markup" is a meaningful term however
  59. # [01:21] <webben> sayrer: You can (of course) produce exactly the same accessibility problem using generic elements (hello div and span) plus CSS.
  60. # [01:22] <webben> sayrer: do you think "markup conveying formatting information rather than explicitly implying the type of content and its relationship to other content" is meaningful?
  61. # [01:22] <sayrer> webben, no
  62. # [01:22] <sayrer> sometimes, yes. but not as a general principle
  63. # [01:22] <webben> when yes and when no?
  64. # [01:23] <webben> or, why yes when yes, and why no when no
  65. # [01:23] <sayrer> webben, presentational information can lend context to words in the same way that intonation can when words are spoken
  66. # [01:24] <webben> there's a difference between humans inferring information from context and machines inferring informationm, that they can then present to humans in a regularized fashion, from explicit instruction.
  67. # [01:24] <sayrer> accessibility is about humans, I though
  68. # [01:24] <sayrer> thought
  69. # [01:25] <webben> yes. and being about to regularize information into a tailored format is about making information accessible to humans.
  70. # [01:25] <webben> *able to
  71. # [01:25] <sayrer> I think the goal is a good one
  72. # [01:26] <sayrer> I'm not sure banning the <font> element is going to help much
  73. # [01:26] <sayrer> I could see the value of doing that if one could say "rest assured, you are creating an accessible site" in its absence
  74. # [01:27] <webben> Why would you expect it to be a silver bullet?
  75. # [01:27] <sayrer> that is not what I said
  76. # [01:27] <sayrer> or what I meant, rather
  77. # [01:27] <webben> Seems implied in what you said. Can you rephrase perhaps?
  78. # [01:28] <sayrer> banning <font> does not prevent the exact problems we are discussing
  79. # [01:28] <sayrer> since they are all still there with different markup
  80. # [01:29] <webben> the substitution of ambiguous formatting information for (more) unambiguous information about types and relationships?
  81. # [01:29] <sayrer> webben, my view is that these elements are syntactic sugar for CSS properties
  82. # [01:29] <sayrer> they are no more evil than the CSS, and it takes some judgement to figure out whether they are ok
  83. # [01:30] <webben> I think it's confused to say they are syntactic sugar for CSS properties.
  84. # [01:30] <sayrer> why?
  85. # [01:31] <webben> Because what's "objectionable" about font and style is that they bake formatting information into the structured content layer.
  86. # [01:31] <sayrer> that is not an accessibility objection
  87. # [01:32] <sayrer> I definitely agree that there are maintainability concerns, and accessibility concerns
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  90. # [01:34] <webben> sayrer: If your point is it's possible to bake formatting information into the structured content layer, without making it impossible for a machine to separate the two, that's strictly true.
  91. # [01:34] <sayrer> webben, concrete examples are better
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  94. # [01:34] <webben> Concrete examples of what, sorry?
  95. # [01:35] <sayrer> webben, can you create something that is strictly worse, from an accessibility perspective, that is only enabled by <font> or <center>?
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  97. # [01:40] <webben> sayrer: "enabled", probably not. "encouraged", probably yes. encouragement isn't enablement though.
  98. # [01:40] <sayrer> webben, ok, I believe that might be true. what is an example?
  99. # [01:41] <webben> an example of encouragement?
  100. # [01:41] <sayrer> yeah
  101. # [01:41] <sayrer> I am particularly interested in cases that aren't of the form "you aren't smart enough to understand CSS"
  102. # [01:41] <webben> Not entirely sure what that means.
  103. # [01:42] <webben> I think the context is WYSIWYG and the idea that by changing the font you've communicated that something is e.g. a heading, or a field label, or some code.
  104. # [01:42] <sayrer> webben, it seems to me that lots of things we consider to be "good markup" are getting mixed up. Good maintainability, good accessibility, etc.
  105. # [01:43] <webben> Mmm. "mixed up" or ... happen to be produced by the same practices.
  106. # [01:43] <sayrer> and a lot of it is motivated by a sophomoric division of "presentation" and "data"
  107. # [01:43] <webben> "sophomoric" seems like a way to criticise something without having to actually state your criticism.
  108. # [01:44] <sayrer> that is not the definition! :)
  109. # [01:44] <sayrer> but anyway, "the idea that by changing the font you've communicated that something is e.g. a heading, or a field label, or some code"
  110. # [01:44] <sayrer> sure
  111. # [01:44] <sayrer> but do we get an element for each visual subtlety out there?
  112. # [01:45] <webben> Not in HTML.
  113. # [01:45] <webben> CSS came along before that happened! ;)
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  115. # [01:45] <sayrer> ok, we're in the same place I think
  116. # [01:45] <sayrer> different ideas of what's right
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  122. # [02:08] * Hixie ponders whether to make it possible to insert rows into a datagrid dynamically
  123. # [02:08] <Hixie> and how this should affect the IDs of previously-inserted elements
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  127. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it would be great if some smart student developer could take on implementing datagrid in Mozilla or Webkit as a GSOC project
  128. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: how long do you reckon it will take you to finish the datgrid redesign?
  129. # [02:19] * roc_ wonders if datagrid is a good idea
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  131. # [02:20] <roc> I'll wait and see :-)
  132. # [02:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: a few days.
  133. # [02:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm mostly done, but writing it up takes a while.
  134. # [02:21] <Hixie> ironically, my proof of concept implementation was done in a few hours, speccing it is taking much longer.
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  136. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that seems like the way such things usually go
  137. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> hmm, Webkit not participating in GSOC this year
  138. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> http://socghop.appspot.com/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2009
  139. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> unfortunately
  140. # [02:29] <olliej> MikeSmith: it was a lot of work for relatively little gain last year
  141. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> olliej: I see. I had been hoping the XBL2 stuff would have gotten further along
  142. # [02:33] <olliej> MikeSmith: the xbl guy was basically doomed -- there's no way a GSoC student has a real hope of getting xbl done -- you need to have an astonishingly good knowledge of the way everything needs to work
  143. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> olliej: yeah, I can imagine
  144. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> Keishi Hattori's Web Inspector stuff mostly got done, didn't it?
  145. # [02:34] <olliej> MikeSmith: yeah, and thingy
  146. # [02:35] <Niictar24> Hrm, does a nightly build like minefield automatically update to the latest build?
  147. # [02:35] <olliej> michaelangelo got some good work done
  148. # [02:35] <olliej> but the majority of devs did little to no work
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  150. # [02:35] <Niictar24> Or do I need to download a new one if I want to be super up to date?
  151. # [02:35] <olliej> and consumed many hours from actual developers
  152. # [02:35] <olliej> Niictar24: it updates automagically
  153. # [02:35] <olliej> Niictar24: on mac
  154. # [02:36] <olliej> Niictar24: but #webkit would be a more appropriate place to ask
  155. # [02:36] <MikeSmith> olliej: Michaelangelo did WF2 stuff?
  156. # [02:36] <olliej> MikeSmith: i think he ended up doing a mix of inspector and other stuff
  157. # [02:36] <MikeSmith> OK
  158. # [02:36] <olliej> can't remember the specifics, just remember liking his patches :D
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  160. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> WEb Inspector is quite a piece of work - definitely has raised the bar as far as expectations for developer tools, and UI for them
  161. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> olliej: what thingy?
  162. # [02:37] <Niictar24> Webkit? Know I know about that channel, but are they going to tell me to go somewhere else when I ask about a mozilla product? :P
  163. # [02:38] <olliej> Niictar24: oh i completely miread your quetion sorry
  164. # [02:38] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I remember he added the autofocus attribute
  165. # [02:38] <olliej> Niictar24: i read "nightly build" as "webkit nightly"
  166. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> Rik`: cool
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  168. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> Niictar24: there's also a Help > Check for updates
  169. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> in Minefield
  170. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> and in the Minefield preferences, you can set what the update behavior should be
  171. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> you can have it automatically download and install updates in the background
  172. # [02:42] <Niictar24> Thank ye
  173. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> or can have it prompt you each time if finds a new update
  174. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> I forget what the default is
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  185. # [03:28] <annevk5> hmm ok, I suppose i'll file a bug at some point on obsolete feature
  186. # [03:28] <annevk5> s
  187. # [03:28] <annevk5> simply taking HTML4 as reference I think, not want to make it too complicated
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  192. # [05:34] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  193. # [05:34] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  226. # [08:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's doable to change the RNG/assertion order. Is there a particular pair of messages that would be better that way?
  227. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: obsoleted elements
  228. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> see also my comment at http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=480
  229. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: was the design choice to include the obsoleted element in the schema because of the order of the error messages, or for other reasons?
  230. # [08:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so switch order AND remove legacy.rnc?
  231. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if you remove legacy.rnc, I think it might not be important to change the order at all
  232. # [08:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, the design choice was to have a single but more sensible error message
  233. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> OK
  234. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> that I can understand
  235. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> having a single message
  236. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> and having it not be the near-useless message "Error: Element foo not allowed as child of element bar in this context" that jing gives
  237. # [08:35] <hsivonen> no, now I remember the real reason
  238. # [08:35] <hsivonen> I wanted the subtree not be suppressed
  239. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> ah
  240. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  241. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> hmm
  242. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> that's sort of critical
  243. # [08:35] <hsivonen> but in the general case, not making Jing suppress the subtree was badness
  244. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> really?
  245. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> why?
  246. # [08:36] <hsivonen> I think I had a good reason to change that, yes
  247. # [08:36] <hsivonen> but I've forgotten the details
  248. # [08:36] <hsivonen> that is, the vanilla Jing didn't suppress errors from bogus subtrees
  249. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> oh
  250. # [08:36] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe it was just that Jing's pattern recovery sucked really badly
  251. # [08:37] <hsivonen> so pretty much any element became an error
  252. # [08:37] <hsivonen> or something like that
  253. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so maybe it would be useful to experiment with tentatively removing legacy.rnc and see?
  254. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  255. # [08:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it would be worthwhile to see if there have been good patches to Jing trunk before experimenting
  256. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> OK
  257. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, as I mentioned before, NicolasRaoul is here at W3C Japan for a while, half days (he studies Japanese at a language school in mornings, is here at Keio U. in the afternoons -- and he has some time and interest in helping with patches and potential enhancement to v.nu
  258. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> I was talking with him about Jing this morning
  259. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> and I guess you saw the patch he Aelfred2 patch he posted to the whatwg implementors list
  260. # [08:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll look at his patch right soon, once I've unblocked another patch over at b.m.o
  261. # [08:46] <hsivonen> s/right /
  262. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK. btw, you still trying to solve that mystery crash?
  263. # [08:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, I resolved it on Friday
  264. # [08:49] <hsivonen> (yay!)
  265. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> ah great
  266. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> congrats on that
  267. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> that must have been pretty frustrating
  268. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: speaking of patches, please put this one in your queue:
  269. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=81
  270. # [08:50] <hsivonen> yes. OS X gave me totally bogus stacks, but I failed to inspect the stack for bogosity until vlad pointed out to me that it was bogus
  271. # [08:50] <hsivonen> with the right stack, it was less mysterious
  272. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, I saw your tweet about that
  273. # [08:51] <hsivonen> interestingly, the OS X crash reporter and Mac Valgrind gave consistent bogus stacks. I guess they use the same stack grabbing mechanism.
  274. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, would see so
  275. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> surprised that Valgrind wouldn't use its own thing and not trust the built-in
  276. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> instead
  277. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> that sounds like a major OS bug
  278. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> but not a totally uncommon kind of one
  279. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> I remember seeing problems kind of like that when I was involved with customer work for customers running AIX, HP-UX, Tru64, etc.
  280. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> I learned a lot about OS bugs and about how untrustworthy some so-called enterprise/carrier-grade OS/platforms can be
  281. # [08:56] * Parts: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  286. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: your site is now harder to read :(
  287. # [09:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: which browser/OS?
  288. # [09:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: due to colors or fonts or something else?
  289. # [09:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: opera/windows
  290. # [09:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: font for the body text
  291. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it looks great on Mac and on Linux with no hinting or little hinting in FreeType
  292. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ClearType sucks :-(
  293. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know what I should do.
  294. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Opera and Firefox need to ship font renderer that don't suck on Windows the way Safari does, I guess
  295. # [09:16] * zcorpan tries disabling cleartype
  296. # [09:18] <zcorpan> well that made it even worse :/
  297. # [09:18] <hsivonen> the heading fonts is the one that *really* sucks with any hinting
  298. # [09:19] <hsivonen> (either Windows hinting or FreeType hinting)
  299. # [09:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do I have any other course of actions than removing the fonts from Mac and Linux users, too?
  300. # [09:20] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  301. # [09:20] <hsivonen> which reminds me that Safari makes it really hard to test the issue sayrer reported if the affected font happens to reside on one's hard drive
  302. # [09:21] <hsivonen> secondary hard drive even!
  303. # [09:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  304. # [09:21] <hsivonen> it as though Safari had total information awareness of all fonts around all my hard drives
  305. # [09:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno. maybe try some other font that is easier to read with cleartype? maybe one that isn't italics
  306. # [09:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: italics???
  307. # [09:23] <hsivonen> http://api.browsershots.org/png/original/b6/b6e53e1d3771b5ebc8bd9a738257b2aa.png looks interesting
  308. # [09:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: everything is in italics for me. but might be a bug in opera
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  311. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it might be useful to have an "Error messages" component for v.nu bugzilla
  312. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> or "Error reporting"
  313. # [09:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i see that it's not italics in safari and firefox
  314. # [09:28] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it looks good there
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  317. # [09:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8633/hsivonenfontopera.png
  318. # [09:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: should I file an Opera bug? I'm seeing it on my virtual machine.
  319. # [09:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: You should add an EOT file for IE
  320. # [09:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: why not file the bugs under the components that are responible for errors
  321. # [09:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: nope :-)
  322. # [09:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes please
  323. # [09:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
  324. # [09:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: I wanted to have an IE-only feature for a draft CSS feature, but it sucked too much in practice to use
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  328. # [09:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: If you don't have an EOT file, then the IE developers will be discouraged from adding TTF support because it will make your site start using weird ugly fonts :-)
  329. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for some cases, I'm not sure users will have any idea what component is responsible
  330. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> for some cases I'm not sure I know myself
  331. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I meant mostly of reporting of bugs from general public
  332. # [09:42] * Philip` supposes he can just disable styles entirely when reading hsivonen's site
  333. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> e.g., if somebody sees a typo in an error message and wants to report it
  334. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> or a formatting problem (e.g., in the spe-scraped output)
  335. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, v.nu bugzilla just gave me a message I've not seen before:
  336. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22.
  337. # [09:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i've got that a few times iirc
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  339. # [09:48] <Hixie> set your path to ''
  340. # [09:48] <Hixie> local $ENV{PATH} = '';
  341. # [09:49] <Hixie> before calling exec(), system(), ``, or qx()
  342. # [09:49] <Hixie> or open('|')
  343. # [09:50] <Hixie> (and use absolute paths)
  344. # [10:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: DSK-251114
  345. # [10:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the perl thing is a know bug that I don't know a fix to
  346. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'll try that. thanks!
  347. # [10:03] <Hixie> thank me if it works :-)
  348. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: does the serif font suck or do you feel like disabling the sans serif font?
  349. # [10:04] * hsivonen wishes FreeType and ClearType stopped this hinting business. it's so last century
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  352. # [10:07] * jgraham doesn't like hsivonen's choice of background colour :)
  353. # [10:08] <hsivonen> maybe I should try 42 shades and get some data :-)
  354. # [10:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
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  357. # [10:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: The serif font is the only one that doesn't get rendered really badly (in Firefox on Linux)
  358. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's your FreeType hinting setting?
  359. # [10:12] <Philip`> (It doesn't seem like a hinting issue - the shapes are just wrong)
  360. # [10:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: Don't know
  361. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a suggestion for a Free as in Freedom sans-serif font that isn't trite and doesn't suck
  362. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: MgOpen Cosmetica looks good with full AA and no hinting and looks terrible with hinting
  363. # [10:14] <hsivonen> I expect many more Mac users to use fonts that utterly suck on Windows and with FreeType hinting
  364. # [10:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: You could use the one called "sans-serif" :-)
  365. # [10:15] <hsivonen> I wanted to use Linux Biolinum, but I didn't find any public test version of it
  366. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Cosmetica even ships with Ubuntu for Greek use cases
  367. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: I claim the wrongness of shapes is hinting
  368. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: because the issue goes away if I tweak FreeType hinting settings
  369. # [10:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: How do you tweak the hinting settings?
  370. # [10:17] * Philip` has to go away and will look later
  371. # [10:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: under Ubuntu, System->Preferences->Appearance->Fonts
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  374. # [10:22] <hsivonen> w00t. the latest libertine package comes with biolinum!!!
  375. # [10:23] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@17.203.15.161)
  376. # [10:26] <hsivonen> perhaps I should experiment with the OTF variants, too. in order to get a different glyph rasterizer
  377. # [10:33] * Joins: adambeynon (n=adambeyn@93-97-229-187.zone5.bethere.co.uk)
  378. # [10:34] <hsivonen> I love this comment in an XML of all places: "many versions of nwalsh docbook stylesheets have bogus URLs; so this can't be an error..."
  379. # [10:34] <hsivonen> I guess Draconian software needs to work with existing content :-)
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  383. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I noticed that the spec snapshot that v.nu is using is gone pretty stale -- it's from November
  384. # [10:52] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-17-128.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  385. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> though i guess there have not been so many content-model/attribute changes since then
  386. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> there is addition of keygen, though, for one
  387. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> so message links won't be generated for that until spec snapshot is updated
  388. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> and spec snapshot update will break the build unless Html5SpecBuilder.java is patched
  389. # [10:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, that's what tends to happen :-(
  390. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, I learned a bit from looking at that code
  391. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering why you just didn't use your HTML parser instead
  392. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> to populate urisByElement etc.
  393. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hmm, you did I gues
  394. # [10:56] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you filed the same bug thrice
  395. # [10:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=81 looks good, but I didn't test it
  396. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: oops, sorry
  397. # [10:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: "Malformed spec: no element currentName.", locator);
  398. # [10:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that looks like my bug
  399. # [10:57] <hsivonen> currentName should be a concatenated variable, not part of the literal
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  401. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have tested it as much as I could figure to
  402. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> I have some simple per-element tests at http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute/
  403. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> putting an unknown attribute on each element was the simplest single-invalidity test case I could think of that would generated the error messages with those links
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  406. # [11:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what about <embed>?
  407. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: embed allows any unknown attribute
  408. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> I have another test for it
  409. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> some other tests
  410. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/bad-value/embed-height.html
  411. # [11:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think 0 is allowed now
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  413. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: only on <img>
  414. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> I think
  415. # [11:03] <zcorpan> oh
  416. # [11:03] <zcorpan> ok
  417. # [11:04] <zcorpan> consistency++
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  419. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, fixed the problem with the variable name literal in the message string, and re-tested
  420. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=83
  421. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> though I'm not sure how to malform the spec in such a way as to cause that code to be exercise
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  424. # [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good for check-in
  425. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool, thanks
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  430. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://svn8.cvsdude.com/vvc/whattf/validator?view=revision&revision=311
  431. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> checked in snapshot of latest spec along with the SpecBuilder change
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  444. # [12:37] <annevk5> meh, getting IE8 to run is a pain
  445. # [12:37] <annevk5> just told me two restarts are required
  446. # [12:54] <annevk5> hmm, IE8 dispatches the storage event on the document object?!
  447. # [12:55] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-88056774e75b836d)
  448. # [13:00] <annevk5> in Safari I can't seem to get it dispatch at all
  449. # [13:00] <annevk5> (and curiously onstorage exists on both document and window in Safari)
  450. # [13:04] <jgraham> Note for the curious: getting one's thesis bound remotely is both stressful and insanely expensive
  451. # [13:05] <annevk5> I thought the IE team had fixed the issues :/
  452. # [13:05] * hsivonen wonders how much "insanely" is
  453. # [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: would 22.50 EUR per copy incl. VAT be "insanely"?
  454. # [13:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is going to end up cosing roughly 60GBP/copy
  455. # [13:05] <hsivonen> wow
  456. # [13:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: did you get leather covers or something?
  457. # [13:06] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-113-60.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  458. # [13:06] <Dashiva> Gold plating
  459. # [13:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: No cloth covers are mandatory though
  460. # [13:06] <jgraham> And cost about 30GBP/copy
  461. # [13:07] <jgraham> The remaining cost is printing which I can't easilly do and get the documents to the binders
  462. # [13:07] <jgraham> and delivery of the documents to the depertment
  463. # [13:07] <Dashiva> There's no binding service at the uni?
  464. # [13:07] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think they recommend the commercial service
  465. # [13:08] <jgraham> It is likely that I have done this in a more expensive way than is strictly necessary
  466. # [13:09] <annevk5> IE also throws for trying to set storage keys to invalid XML characters now
  467. # [13:10] <annevk5> which notably violates the spec
  468. # [13:11] <jgraham> annevk5: Is there a testsuite?
  469. # [13:12] <jgraham> Dashiva: It turns out that there is a Uni binding service that is actually just a frontend for the commercial service
  470. # [13:12] <jgraham> With the same prices and so on
  471. # [13:13] <annevk5> I'm just toying with the Live DOM Viewer
  472. # [13:14] <Dashiva> That's... weak
  473. # [13:14] <annevk5> writing an update on IE8 and standards
  474. # [13:14] <annevk5> I actually thought they had fixed most except for a few things but it's a bit worse than that :/
  475. # [13:15] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  476. # [13:15] <jgraham> annevk5: Right but I'm wondering if there is a testsuite or not becuase having testsuites for features that are known to be in development is good
  477. # [13:15] <jgraham> and we have known that storage is in development for some time now
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  479. # [13:15] <jgraham> (and obviously it has been released)
  480. # [13:15] * hsivonen is again amazed at the epic design failure that .h files are
  481. # [13:16] <jgraham> So if there were a WG testsuite we could have pointed them at it would have been good
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  485. # [13:16] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I'm more amazed by the people who defend them
  486. # [13:17] <jgraham> In general it would be good if the HTMLWG created a community around testing features that are known to be in development for various browsers
  487. # [13:17] <jgraham> So that the whole web isn't affected by lame QA at one company
  488. # [13:17] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  489. # [13:18] * jgraham wonders what happened to takkaria's test czar plan
  490. # [13:18] <annevk5> sure, everyone has bugs
  491. # [13:19] <annevk5> but dispatching an event on a completely different object? come on
  492. # [13:19] <annevk5> I mean, these are not edge case bugs
  493. # [13:19] <jgraham> Sure :)
  494. # [13:19] <jgraham> But a testsuite makes it really obvious that they suck
  495. # [13:20] <jgraham> Marketing "we introduced a cool new HTML5 feature" is undermined somewhat if you are known to fail every test for that feature
  496. # [13:21] <jgraham> So if you want to dispatch the event on a different object for whatever reason then you have to involve the community in that
  497. # [13:21] <jgraham> Or at leeast there is some incentive to
  498. # [13:22] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  499. # [13:24] <Dashiva> Whoever made that YTSO mashup must love timpani
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  502. # [13:29] <annevk5> Safari seems buggy too
  503. # [13:29] <annevk5> returns undefined rather than null for unknown keys; events don't seem to function
  504. # [13:30] <annevk5> "If there is one thing the world needs, it’s more testcases."
  505. # [13:31] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-80-99-193-98.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  506. # [13:31] <jgraham> Returning undefined for unknown keys does make more sense, to be fair
  507. # [13:31] <jgraham> (obviously if the spec says otherwise, that's what they should do)
  508. # [13:32] <annevk5> IE does undefined too
  509. # [13:32] <jgraham> We should change the spec than
  510. # [13:32] <jgraham> *then
  511. # [13:32] <jgraham> it makes sense since o = {}; o.p === undefined in normal js
  512. # [13:32] <annevk5> It's nice that we have to figure that out by reverse engineering them
  513. # [13:33] <annevk5> I thought clear unambigious specs were supposed to safe us from this mess?
  514. # [13:35] <jgraham> annevk5: I guess they will just make it better rather than solve all problems
  515. # [13:36] <annevk5> You know, I wonder what Firefox does here. I'm guessing they do it right.
  516. # [13:37] * annevk5 will know in few minutes
  517. # [13:37] <annevk5> a few, even
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  520. # [13:41] <annevk5> and they do, someone buy me a beer
  521. # [13:42] <Dashiva> Sorry, the GMFMWG hasn't responded yet
  522. # [13:43] * annevk5 doesn't get the joke; also not after reading http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090326
  523. # [13:44] <Dashiva> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090326#l-104
  524. # [13:45] <annevk5> heh
  525. # [13:46] <annevk5> Firefox doesn't do events either? Am I missing something?
  526. # [13:47] <annevk5> code:
  527. # [13:47] <annevk5> window.onstorage = function(e) { w(e) }
  528. # [13:47] <annevk5> localStorage.x = "y"
  529. # [13:48] <Dashiva> Maybe they have it on document?
  530. # [13:48] <annevk5> nope
  531. # [13:48] <annevk5> they also do not expose onstorage on document unlike WebKit
  532. # [13:52] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  533. # [14:04] <heycam`> qq: "center of rotation" or "centre of rotation" in en-US?
  534. # [14:04] <jgraham> I believe the former
  535. # [14:04] <jgraham> But I don't speak en-US
  536. # [14:04] <hsivonen> :-( https://html5lib.googlecode.com/ is 503
  537. # [14:05] <heycam`> jgraham, ok thanks
  538. # [14:05] <heycam`> i think it's the former too, since the latter is how i would spell it... but wanted to be sure
  539. # [14:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ seems to work
  540. # [14:06] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-f525d3860da341d7)
  541. # [14:09] <remysharp> qq: is a div still an appropriate element to wrap an arbitrary block of content for styling? Or is that wrong? this particular example doesn't add any semantic value, just required for JS effect
  542. # [14:11] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  543. # [14:13] <beowulf> remysharp: yes
  544. # [14:14] <remysharp> ta
  545. # [14:14] <remysharp> I've another question, but it's possible it's not appropriate for this chan - if so, I'll go looking elsewhere -
  546. # [14:15] <remysharp> I'm using xhtml content type serving to get FF2 to render the html5 properly - which works just fine, but -
  547. # [14:15] <remysharp> when it encounters an html entity that it doesn't know about, i.e. &bull; it borks
  548. # [14:16] <remysharp> Obviously this would be fixed by specifying a DTD, but that's not the way html5 is done
  549. # [14:16] <beowulf> that's xml for you, define the entity in the dtd or use xml entites
  550. # [14:16] <beowulf> entities
  551. # [14:17] <annevk5> or don't use XML
  552. # [14:17] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  553. # [14:17] <remysharp> annevk5: sure, and I know FF2 has zip all usage, but it looks aweful - and the JS fix for FF2 needs a lot more work
  554. # [14:19] <annevk5> I wouldn't know, I'm running Firefox 3.6something
  555. # [14:19] <jgraham> remysharp: Seriously ignore FF2
  556. # [14:19] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  557. # [14:19] <remysharp> I would if I had justified ignoring IE6, but since the site works perfectly in that browser, I can't live with the idea that it's shot all over the place in FF2
  558. # [14:19] <remysharp> and the htaccess fix is easy
  559. # [14:20] <remysharp> and working - but it's just html entities that was tripping me up
  560. # [14:20] <annevk5> doesn't sound like working to me :p
  561. # [14:20] <beowulf> would it be better to have an #html5 room for html authors like me to ask q's or is here fine?
  562. # [14:20] <jgraham> remysharp: You know that is not a rational argument, right
  563. # [14:20] <jgraham> beowulf: Here is fine
  564. # [14:20] <remysharp> jgraham: absolutely!
  565. # [14:21] <remysharp> just a matter of pride if it doesn't blow my mind to fix it :-)
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  567. # [14:22] <jgraham> remysharp: OK, well the other solution is to not use entities
  568. # [14:22] <jgraham> Ideally you should just use UTF-8 over the wire
  569. # [14:22] <remysharp> jgraham: I've just changed it to xml entities and it works perfectly
  570. # [14:22] <annevk5> jgraham, that's not an argument against entities
  571. # [14:22] <remysharp> oh - as in the raw bullet character?
  572. # [14:22] <jgraham> annevk5: What isn't?
  573. # [14:23] <jgraham> That they don't work?
  574. # [14:23] <annevk5> jgraham, "just use UTF-8" because it's still easier to type an entity than the actual character
  575. # [14:23] <jgraham> annevk5: I agree
  576. # [14:23] <annevk5> e.g. &hellip;
  577. # [14:23] <jgraham> But if you are producing XML you need a real serializer anyway so doing entity->UTF-8 conversion should be trivial
  578. # [14:24] <annevk5> in fact, when I want the character I usually construct a data URL and copy and paste
  579. # [14:24] <jgraham> annevk5: &hellip is not a great example (it is erasonably easy to type)
  580. # [14:24] <jgraham> But $cint; probably is
  581. # [14:25] <annevk5> the character the entity represents is not easy to type
  582. # [14:25] <annevk5> not for me anyway
  583. # [14:27] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-e1f10e669c9d71bd)
  584. # [14:32] <jgraham> annevk5: It is … right? If you set a compose key under Linux, that is just Compose then ..
  585. # [14:33] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-79-33.dynamic.amis.net)
  586. # [14:36] <annevk5> dunno, I'm using my Mac atm because I'm running Windows XP on the other machine to play with IE8
  587. # [14:36] <annevk5> also, I don't know of Compose or its shortcuts nor do I know for most other characters
  588. # [14:37] <annevk5> (even the euro character...)
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  590. # [14:37] <jgraham> annevk5: I don't know most entities :)
  591. # [14:38] <jgraham> (nor do I know most compose shortcuts)
  592. # [14:38] <annevk5> I know a bunch for umlauts and such
  593. # [14:38] <annevk5> and for the euro :)
  594. # [14:40] <remysharp> if you want entities - there you go, a nice little dashboard widget too: http://leftlogic.com/lounge/articles/entity-lookup/
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  602. # [15:00] <beowulf> what is wrong with <h1><p>Typeline</p><p>Mainline</p></h1>?
  603. # [15:01] <annevk5> you want <header>
  604. # [15:02] <beowulf> I do for sure, but when we then go onto describe what header means and how it's used it sounds very much like the above, so why not do that? i'm curious is all
  605. # [15:03] <Dashiva> Because those aren't paragraphs?
  606. # [15:04] <annevk5> because typeline and mainline can't be distinguished then
  607. # [15:04] <annevk5> would be one reason I can think of
  608. # [15:04] <hsivonen> Grr. Parallels refuses to virtualize non-Server Mac OS X
  609. # [15:05] <beowulf> Dashiva: are they not paragraphs because they are in a <h1> or because of the content?
  610. # [15:06] <Dashiva> Both?
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  615. # [15:27] <hsivonen> whee! now that I worked around the Opera 10 @font-face bug, WebKit shows me all italics!
  616. # [15:28] <annevk2> fonts are a nightmare :/
  617. # [15:35] <hsivonen> filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25207 and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25208
  618. # [15:35] <hsivonen> WebKit has such small bug ids :-)
  619. # [15:41] <virtuelv> hsivonen: details on our @font-face bug?
  620. # [15:41] <Rik|work> hsivonen: damn, i've filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25209 :)
  621. # [15:41] <Rik|work> i'll close mine
  622. # [15:44] <annevk2> fwiw, I think dhyatt did that on purpose
  623. # [15:44] <Rik|work> annevk2: there's maybe a reason behind but the result is really ugly
  624. # [15:44] <hsivonen> virtuelv: DSK-251114: font-weight and font-style modifiers ignored on @font-face
  625. # [15:45] <virtuelv> hsivonen: thanks
  626. # [15:45] * hsivonen wishes these face selection issues within a family get fixed before Opera 10 final and Safari 4 final
  627. # [15:45] <hsivonen> otherwise, multiface families will suck badly
  628. # [15:46] * hsivonen wonders why OpenType models italics as a separate face but small caps as alternative glyphs
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  633. # [15:57] <takkaria> jgraham: my test czar plan got taken over by real life
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  635. # [15:58] <jgraham> takkaria: You should consider abandoning rel life then
  636. # [15:58] <jgraham> *real
  637. # [15:59] <takkaria> I have, many times, but it always seems to come back like some kind of weed between the cracks of the pavement
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  642. # [16:08] <jgraham> annevk5: Are you going to mention the undefined vs null thing for stoarge somewhere?
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  645. # [16:28] <hsivonen> how do I intercept a email that is waiting for sending when Mail.app is being stupid with its threads?
  646. # [16:30] <hsivonen> hmm. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0188.html went through, so I can kill Mail.app
  647. # [16:32] <annevk2> jgraham, other than on my blog? not really :p
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  651. # [16:41] <jgraham> annevk2: I'm pretty sure that your blog doesn't count
  652. # [16:42] <annevk2> watch and learn
  653. # [16:42] * annevk2 files a bug
  654. # [16:47] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6814
  655. # [16:47] * jgraham wwonders what he is supposed to be learning
  656. # [16:48] <jgraham> In other, marginally related, news, I wonder if there is any point in filing web-compat bugs on the ES5rc
  657. # [16:50] <annevk2> seems useful
  658. # [16:50] <annevk2> you were supposed to learn that blogs work and then I gave in and filed the silly bug report
  659. # [16:50] <jgraham> Well, we shall see
  660. # [16:51] <annevk2> maybe also keep track of web-compat issues with the spec on a wiki page
  661. # [16:51] <annevk2> i made one for HTTP
  662. # [16:51] <annevk2> where they also don't care too much
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  664. # [16:54] <jgraham> Yeah, it would be nice to do a "Web ECMAScript" spec that documented all the things that actually have to be supported in browsers
  665. # [16:55] <hsivonen> aargh. Google still hasn't a proper mechanism for filing bugs on Google Maps
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  684. # [17:59] <annevk2> hsivonen, I think both your changes to Selectors make sense
  685. # [18:00] <annevk2> hsivonen, maybe it helps if we provide explicit change requests
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  693. # [18:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Downloadable fonts are not supported." - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_Web_Developer_FAQ
  694. # [18:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also, "According to the Accept header, Mozilla prefers application/xhtml+xml over text/html." - is that still the case?
  695. # [18:20] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-36.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  696. # [18:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also "Currently Mozilla does not catch character encoding errors"
  697. # [18:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "HTML-specific CSS exceptions do not apply. For example, the body element gets no special treatment."
  698. # [18:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Simple XLink" - is that still supported?
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  701. # [18:40] <annevk2> Is Steve arguing ATs trump authors?
  702. # [18:42] <tantek> would that just be a special case of user preferences trumping authors? e.g. user stylesheet etc.
  703. # [18:43] <annevk2> more like change the spec because AT might not be fixed
  704. # [18:43] * jcranmer struggles to expand the acronym
  705. # [18:43] <jcranmer> Applachain Trail is funny though :-)
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  723. # [20:14] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
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  726. # [20:22] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "The menu element is redefined to be useful for actual menus." - please elaborate on "menus" so people don't confuse it with <nav>
  727. # [20:22] <zcorpan_> annevk2: e.g. s/actual menus/toolbars and context menus/
  728. # [20:25] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  729. # [20:27] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "Defined that this in the global object returns a WindowProxy object rather than the Window object." - clarify that it's the javascript "this"
  730. # [20:28] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "The way media elements load resources has been clarified." - changed, even
  731. # [20:29] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "You are now allowed to specify the meta element with a charset attribute in XML documents if the value of that attribute matches the encoding of the document." - not the full truth
  732. # [20:31] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160vobr.cable.mindspring.com)
  733. # [20:32] <zcorpan_> annevk2: "A "storage mutex" concept has been added to deal with separate pages trying to change the document.cookie and localStorage object at the same time." - could be interpreted as the problem being changing document.cookie and localStorage at the same time
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  742. # [20:49] <zcorpan_> annevk2: btw, i've made createElement() case-folding in xml in web dom core
  743. # [20:50] <annevk2> saw that, wondered whether I should mention it in the email, but decided not to
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  746. # [20:57] <dbaron> annevk2, your latest public-html message has an mid URI that doesn't resolve for me
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  752. # [21:41] <annevk2> dbaron, oh, it was meant to point to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0273.html
  753. # [21:41] <annevk2> dbaron, I just copied it from the email
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  772. # [23:02] <annevk2> "HTML5 looks great but I think you should stick to page layout and leave protocols either to JavaScript or to some other extension mechanism."
  773. # [23:02] <takkaria> excellent, if only all comments were along those lines
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  777. # [23:11] <franksalim> annevk2: where is that quote from?
  778. # [23:11] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-193-44.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  779. # [23:17] <Hixie> didn't we get rid of all the protocols already?
  780. # [23:17] <Hixie> oh that's the registerProtocolHandler() e-mail?
  781. # [23:20] <takkaria> http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2009/02/html5-canvas-cheat-sheet.html is nice
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  784. # [23:41] <annevk2> it's the one about <keygen> and why we should drop it
  785. # [23:42] <annevk2> this is the closing line
  786. # [23:42] <annevk2> I think it's great
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  789. # [23:45] <mpilgrim_> annevk2:
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  791. # [23:45] <mpilgrim_> annevk2: "representa control for key pair generation" --> "represents control for key pair generation"
  792. # [23:45] <mpilgrim_> in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  793. # [23:46] <mpilgrim_> annevk2: "For the XML syntax authors" --> "For the XML syntax, authors"
  794. # [23:47] <mpilgrim_> annevk2: "The HTML 5 language has a "custom" HTML syntax" --> "The HTML 5 language has a "custom" SGML syntax" ? not sure what else you would mean here, the way it's phrased now doesn't make sense
  795. # [23:48] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  796. # [23:48] <Hixie> s/"custom" HTML/dedicated/, probably
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  798. # [23:50] <mpilgrim_> "space separated list" --> "space-separated list"
  799. # [23:51] <mpilgrim_> also, @ping attribute description mentions URIs in one sentence, then URLs later in the same paragraph
  800. # [23:51] <annevk2> I'll just make it "in HTML syntax and in XML syntax"
  801. # [23:51] <mpilgrim_> but section 2.4 says HTML now has native support for IRIs.
  802. # [23:52] <mpilgrim_> "The area element, for consistency," <-- consistency with what?
  803. # [23:53] <mpilgrim_> (i assume the a and link elements)
  804. # [23:53] <mpilgrim_> "The base element can now have a target attribute as well, mainly for consistency with the a element (it is also widely supported)." --> "The base element can now have a target attribute as well, mainly for consistency with the a element. (This is already widely supported.)"
  805. # [23:54] <annevk2> changed all URI to URL and clarified the IRI paragraph
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  807. # [23:57] <mpilgrim_> "Using this feature should enhance the user experience as the user can turn it off if he does not like it, for instance. " --> "This is a superior alternative to script-based solutions because browsers and assistive technologies can more easily override it."
  808. # [23:57] <mpilgrim_> bah, still not happy with that sentence
  809. # [23:57] <mpilgrim_> feel free to ignore some or all of this
  810. # [23:57] <mpilgrim_> especially that one
  811. # [23:57] <annevk2> i'll ignore that last one then :)
  812. # [23:58] <mpilgrim_> "(e.g. one they are not a descendant of)" --> "e.g. these elements can now be placed anywhere on a page, not just as descendants of the form element"
  813. # Session Close: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)