/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <mpilgrim_> "They are equivalent to the attributes not prefixed with form on the form element and override those." --> "If present, they override the action, enctype, method, novalidate, and target attributes on the form element."
  4. # [00:00] <annevk2> I guess I should e.g. to i.e. as well then
  5. # [00:02] <mpilgrim_> "because their effect is purely presentational and whose function" --> "because their effect is purely presentational and their function"
  6. # [00:10] <mpilgrim_> should mention somewhere that @alt is now optional if-and-only-if (whatever the spec says these days)
  7. # [00:14] <mpilgrim_> "This API has the necessary security restrictions in place" seems like a bold and unsubstantiated claim :)
  8. # [00:17] <mpilgrim_> rest looks great
  9. # [00:20] <Philip`> jgraham: About binding: Can't you just ask somebody in the remote location to do it for you?
  10. # [00:20] <Philip`> (like, a proper person, not a representative of a commercial service)
  11. # [00:20] <Philip`> annevk5: I thought IE8 final had changed (since beta) to return undefined instead of null, since I pointed it out in response to their submitted tests
  12. # [00:28] <annevk2> you said they should return undefined instead?
  13. # [00:31] <Philip`> I think I said they should do what the spec says, and I think they said they changed their tests to match that, and I think I might have tested the implementation and found it was fixed, but I might be hallucinating
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  18. # [00:49] <annevk2> Philip`, I'm pretty sure I did w(localStorage.foobar) and it said undefined but if someone could verify that again that'd be cool
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  22. # [00:55] <Hixie> why would it not say undefined
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  24. # [01:02] <Philip`> annevk2: Oh - it looks like they changed localStorage.getItem('foobar'), but not localStorage.foobar
  25. # [01:03] <Philip`> (At least getItem('foobar') returns null in current IE8, while .foobar returns undefined)
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  27. # [01:05] <Hixie> that's what the spec says should happen
  28. # [01:06] <Philip`> Really?
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  30. # [01:07] <Hixie> localStorage.foobar doesn't exist on the object, and ECMA-262 says it should thus return undefined
  31. # [01:07] <Hixie> getItem() says to return null for unknown values
  32. # [01:07] <Dashiva> But doesn't property access map to get/setItem?
  33. # [01:07] <Philip`> That's quite non-obvious from the spec
  34. # [01:07] <Hixie> yes, for properties that are present
  35. # [01:07] <Hixie> Philip`: read WebIDL
  36. # [01:08] <Philip`> It'd be nice if it linked to the relevant part of WebIDL :-)
  37. # [01:08] <Hixie> i'm waiting for gsnedders to give us cross-spec auto-xreffing :-)
  38. # [01:08] * Philip` kind of assumed that NameGetter would be called for any name that wasn't already part of the interface
  39. # [01:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: It'd be nice if it linked to the relevant part of WebIDL :-)
  40. # [01:08] <Hixie> i've already set up the cross-references for this, it just isn't being generated automatically yet
  41. # [01:09] <Hixie> Philip`: if you had it defined that way, you couldn't enumerate over the object
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  43. # [01:10] <Philip`> Hixie: Enumeration could be defined over some finite list of keys, but NameGetter could still be called for all name gets regardless of whether they're in that list
  44. # [01:10] <Philip`> but I guess it's not done that way
  45. # [01:10] <Philip`> in which case that's fine
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  47. # [01:11] * Philip` prefers it when he doesn't have to read specs to work out what behaviour is specified, but that might be asking for too much
  48. # [01:12] <Hixie> i'm just doign what heycam and the browser vendors tell me to do here
  49. # [01:12] <Hixie> if you have any suggestiosn on making the spec clearer, let me know :-)
  50. # [01:12] <Dashiva> Is this behavior described in WebIDL?
  51. # [01:13] <Hixie> yes
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> web storage invokes all the webidl terms
  53. # [01:13] <Hixie> they re underlined in green
  54. # [01:14] <Philip`> By green, do you mean blue?
  55. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Yes, but I don't see anything about the undefined/null duality there
  56. # [01:14] <Hixie> er, blue in the w3c version, yes
  57. # [01:14] <Philip`> Is there a non-W3C version?
  58. # [01:14] * Philip` has a hard time finding a copy of the spec via Google whenever he wants it
  59. # [01:14] <Hixie> i don't think i'm currently generating a whatwg version of the web storage spec, no
  60. # [01:15] <Philip`> Oh, neat, Google's 'promote' thing lets me make it the top search result for "web storage"
  61. # [01:15] <Hixie> the web storage spec is the 6th hit for [web storage] on google
  62. # [01:16] <Dashiva> Hmm
  63. # [01:16] <Dashiva> No NameCreator
  64. # [01:16] <Philip`> I'm afraid I don't acknowledge the existence of any search results beyond 2 from the top, except in exceptional circumstances
  65. # [01:16] <Hixie> heh
  66. # [01:16] * Hixie just uses the links on http://☺.damowmow.com/
  67. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Okay, so reading WebIDL the "supported named properties" thing supports the null/undefined duality thing
  68. # [01:17] <Dashiva> But that also means you can't create new properties with .x = whatnot, since there's no NameCreator
  69. # [01:18] <Hixie> er yeah, i should put in a NameCreator
  70. # [01:19] <Hixie> file a bug or drop me a mail or something?
  71. # [01:19] <Hixie> i'm in the middle of massive edits for datagrid
  72. # [01:19] <Philip`> IE8 is buggy because it allows you to create new properties, in violation of the spec!
  73. # [01:19] <Dashiva> k
  74. # [01:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: Or just prescient!
  75. # [01:20] <Dashiva> Hixie: Can I send to whatwg list even though it's w3c spec? :)
  76. # [01:20] <Hixie> yes
  77. # [01:20] <Hixie> the web storage spec is a whatwg spec (it's in the same source document as html5), i'm just not currently generating a whatwg copy of the output
  78. # [01:21] <Hixie> i wonder why i don't have the NameCreator annotations
  79. # [01:21] <Hixie> that's odd
  80. # [01:23] <Dashiva> Maybe you wrote the IDL before the supported named properties thing was added to WebIDL, and forgot to update
  81. # [01:24] <Hixie> no, the rest of the spec carefully talks about the named properties stuff
  82. # [01:24] <Hixie> i had a big update day
  83. # [01:24] <Hixie> where i went through and redid all the interfaces to match WebIDL
  84. # [01:24] <Hixie> i just forgot, i guess
  85. # [01:24] <Hixie> i wonder how many more are missing NameCreator
  86. # [01:25] <Hixie> i guess it's pretty rare that you can add keys
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  98. # [02:24] <annevk2> Hixie, that's ugly, they should do the same, imo
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  123. # [04:21] <myakura> annevk2: html5-diff sec 3.1 says "ruby, rt and rb allow for marking up ruby annotations. " but i think it's not <rb> but <rp>
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  171. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> are there any significant number of pages that use <basefont>?
  172. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> is it worth having a validator report it as obsolete?
  173. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> also <isindex>
  174. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#misc
  175. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> so basefont appears in more pages than ins or del
  176. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-head-structure/#head
  177. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> "ISINDEX element was only found in 63 URLs" [out of 3,000,000+]
  178. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> so definitely not worth reporting isindex
  179. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> but <basefont> is also used in more pages than <acronym>, <s> and <strike> are -- and in around the same order of magnitude as many pages as <tt> is
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  183. # [09:22] <zcorpan> what is the implementation status of <script async> and <script defer>?
  184. # [09:24] <jwalden> http://☺.damowmow.com/ hurts my eyes to read
  185. # [09:26] <zcorpan> ugh
  186. # [09:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: hire a designer :)
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  189. # [09:33] <jgraham> Philip`: I couldn't really get anyone to do the binding for me since it has to be hard bound with cloth covers and all. I could maybe have got someone to do the printing for me but it seems like a big ask since there is a large volume and it would have to be taken to the binders and so on
  190. # [09:37] <jgraham> Hixie: What is the precedent for having localStorage.getItem("foo") != localStorage.foo when !('foo' in localStorage)
  191. # [09:48] <zcorpan> is spellcheck="" implemented in webkit and/or chrome?
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  195. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: <script async> and <script defer> not implemented in WebKit yet
  196. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20710
  197. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> but that comment there says, "Firefox finished this. It's in the 3.1 betas now." .. with some caveats
  198. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> oh, resolution : "Firefox decided to fire DCL after deferred scripts to faciliate the load pattern mentioned in this bug"
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  201. # [10:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: so firefox supports async and defer?
  202. # [10:10] <Rik`> zcorpan: I believe it only supports defer
  203. # [10:10] <zcorpan> Rik`: ok
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  205. # [10:22] <hsivonen> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/89eea1cb2d87999/83b917bfaba2b597
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  209. # [10:39] <zcorpan> wow i didn't know about javascript "foo".sub() and .link() etc
  210. # [10:45] <hsivonen> does DanC's URL spec have a permalink yet?
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  212. # [10:48] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/80
  213. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: from Netscape 2.0, IIRC
  214. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: great companions to document.write()
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  217. # [10:51] <hsivonen> http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/urlp/raw-file/008373680cae/wah5/draft.html is 403 for me
  218. # [10:52] <zcorpan> the need for Web EcmaScript increases
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  220. # [10:55] <olliej> zcorpan: ?
  221. # [11:00] <zcorpan> olliej: i doubt the ecmascript committee are interested in specifying "foo".fontcolor("red")
  222. # [11:00] <olliej> zcorpan: yes because that would belong (if anywhere) in html5 sec
  223. # [11:00] <olliej> spec
  224. # [11:01] <zcorpan> maybe
  225. # [11:02] <hsivonen> do those methods on strings exist in all script contexts in browsers? do they exist in Rhino?
  226. # [11:02] <zcorpan> they exist in the futhark jsshell
  227. # [11:03] <olliej> zcorpan: but it also doesn't make sense for them to really belong on string anyway, as hsivonen said they hark back to netscape2
  228. # [11:03] <olliej> zcorpan: where i'm not even sure the dom would have actually existed
  229. # [11:04] <roc> it didn't
  230. # [11:04] <hsivonen> olliej: but if interop requires string objects to have those methods, should the spec that specs string object methods spec those methods?
  231. # [11:05] <zcorpan> are they required for web compat or are they just leftovers that noone use?
  232. # [11:05] <olliej> hsivonen: no, because a) the DOM spec could easily say "these additional functions must be present on String.prototype"
  233. # [11:05] <olliej> hsivonen: and b) i didn't even know they existed till now
  234. # [11:06] <olliej> hsivonen: so i doubt they're widely used
  235. # [11:06] <jgraham> They are implemeted in all the standalone shells I have
  236. # [11:06] <olliej> hsivonen: we could ask hixie to check for us :D
  237. # [11:06] <jgraham> So they are really part of ECMAsScript implementation wise
  238. # [11:06] * hsivonen gets my first and only JS book from 1996 from the shelf
  239. # [11:07] <annevk2> does IE have them?
  240. # [11:08] * jgraham is very happy to drop them if they are shown to not be needed for web-compat
  241. # [11:08] <jgraham> But I suspect that will not be the case unfortunately
  242. # [11:10] <hsivonen> the JS book from 1996 has a section on string methods and it lists stuff like big() and fixed()
  243. # [11:10] <hsivonen> aside: the hello world equivalent in the book used document.write()
  244. # [11:11] <olliej> hsivonen: that's still stupid
  245. # [11:11] <hsivonen> my guess is that existing content from the Netscape 2.0 era might use them
  246. # [11:11] <olliej> hsivonen: and they can still be made into dom defined functions
  247. # [11:11] <olliej> hsivonen: yeah, but i don't think they realistically matter anymore
  248. # [11:12] <olliej> we can even have "4" in our user agent now
  249. # [11:13] <olliej> hsivonen: and back when safari 2.0.4 was release we discovered that 4 in the user agent string was bad
  250. # [11:13] <hsivonen> olliej: good times
  251. # [11:14] <olliej> because we all know that is your user agent includes "4" you support layers, right?
  252. # [11:14] <jgraham> "Javascript: The Definitive Guide" (O'Reilly, 1996) lists them (is that the same book that hsivonen looked at?)
  253. # [11:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: mine is teach yourself JavaScript in a week by Arman Danesh
  254. # [11:16] <olliej> mine is JavaScriptCore.xcodeproj ;)
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  256. # [11:17] <hsivonen> olliej: clearly, you need more accurate docs :-)
  257. # [11:17] <olliej> hsivonen: heheh
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  259. # [11:20] <zcorpan> so what's the complete list of these methods?
  260. # [11:21] <hsivonen> whoa. a .otf (postscript outlines) version of a font can be one third smaller than a .ttf (truetype outlines) version
  261. # [11:22] <hsivonen> I wonder how SVG fonts fare on file size
  262. # [11:22] <annevk2> has anyone checked if IE supports them?
  263. # [11:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: anchor, big, blink, bold, fixed, fontcolor, fontsize, italics, link, small, strike, sub, sup
  264. # [11:23] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%28%22%7C%27%29%5Cs%2A%5C.%5Cs%2Afontcolor%5Cs%2A%5C%28+lang%3Ajs&sbtn=Search
  265. # [11:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: it does
  266. # [11:25] <annevk2> nasty
  267. # [11:25] <hsivonen> it seems to me that purging the Web of these methods isn't worth the effort compared to just writing them down in the corner of a spec
  268. # [11:25] <annevk2> true
  269. # [11:26] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%5C.%5Cs%2Abig%5Cs%2A%5C%28+lang%3Ajs&sbtn=Search
  270. # [11:26] <jgraham> Things with "Demo" in the title don't count :)
  271. # [11:27] <jgraham> Where is Philip` when you need him?
  272. # [11:27] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  273. # [11:27] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%5C.%5Cs%2Afontsize%5Cs%2A%5C%28+lang%3Ajs&sbtn=Search
  274. # [11:29] <annevk2> putting them in HTML5 makes some sense I suppose if the ECMAScript guys don't do it
  275. # [11:29] <annevk2> it's HTML stuff after all
  276. # [11:29] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  277. # [11:30] <jgraham> Shall I start a ECMAScript iki page?
  278. # [11:30] <jgraham> *wiki
  279. # [11:30] * Joins: beowulf (i=wiglaf@ps4552.dreamhost.com)
  280. # [11:31] <annevk2> yeah, something similar to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP_Issues
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  283. # [11:37] <olliej> !!
  284. # [11:38] <olliej> "foo".blink() exists!!
  285. # [11:38] <olliej> noooooo
  286. # [11:38] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-4e6336d0084c4148) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  287. # [11:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: IIRC, simple XLink is supported on XML element nodes whose namespace isn't well-known to Gecko
  288. # [11:42] <annevk2> I wonder why they don't just kill XLink support
  289. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk2: my understanding is that killing it is the plan
  290. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk2: and restoring special support for MathML is the plan also
  291. # [11:43] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  292. # [11:44] <annevk2> might make more sense to get the MathML guys to introduce an href attribute
  293. # [11:44] <annevk2> they seemed willing
  294. # [11:45] <hsivonen> perhaps I should switch my site to OTF fonts and let the theoretical Price users upgrade to Price 7
  295. # [11:46] <hsivonen> it seems that the OTF rasterizer on Windows sucks less than the TTF rasterizer
  296. # [11:46] <hsivonen> and the OTF fonts are smaller
  297. # [11:47] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-253.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  298. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Grr. Opera 10 on Windows doesn't support OTF
  299. # [11:49] <hsivonen> oops. my test case is wrong
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  302. # [11:56] <zcorpan> still wonder if it's practical to use html <a href> for linking in mathml
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  304. # [12:11] <annevk2> so Safari/IE conform to the spec for nonexistent keys on localStorage and Firefox has a bug for localStorage.missing
  305. # [12:11] <annevk2> I guess it's not worth changing anymore then :/
  306. # [12:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think I've now fixed the answers in the Mozilla Web Author FAQ to be up-to-date
  307. # [12:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: however, the set of questions might no longer be the most frequent set of questions
  308. # [12:24] <jgraham> Interestingly although the enumeration order for user-defined properties on JS Objects seems to be well defined, the relative order between between host-object properties and user defined properties seems to vary
  309. # [12:25] <jgraham> Although perhaps "interestingly" is the wrong word
  310. # [12:25] <olliej> jgraham: hehehe
  311. # [12:26] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-8676dd6eec6492ec)
  312. # [12:27] * jgraham wwould have expected user-defined properties to enumerate last
  313. # [12:27] * hsivonen points to topic
  314. # [12:28] * jgraham has been n00b'd
  315. # [12:33] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1063-ipbf3305marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  316. # [12:34] <jgraham> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript
  317. # [12:34] <jgraham> Still lots to add of course :0
  318. # [12:34] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  319. # [12:34] <jgraham> :) even
  320. # [12:35] <annevk2> e.g. escaping of attribute values and such maybe?
  321. # [12:36] <annevk2> hmm, maybe not
  322. # [12:37] <jgraham> annevk2: I don't think there is anything clever at all
  323. # [12:37] <annevk2> this stuff is not safe at all
  324. # [12:37] <jgraham> I more meant other things where the ES5 spec and web browsers have disagreements e.g. things that are formally implementation defined but actually rather tightly constrained
  325. # [12:38] <jgraham> annevk2: No
  326. # [12:39] <annevk2> note btw that arguments are optional and infinite
  327. # [12:40] <jgraham> annevk2: What do you mean optional and infinite?
  328. # [12:40] <annevk2> e.g. .link("a","x","xd") gives "a" and .link() gives undefined
  329. # [12:40] <annevk2> "undefined"*
  330. # [12:40] <jgraham> annevk2: Yeah ToString will do that
  331. # [12:41] <annevk2> doesn't extra arguments normally throw?
  332. # [12:41] <annevk2> maybe not
  333. # [12:41] <jgraham> annevk2: I don't think so
  334. # [12:42] <annevk2> I guess I'm confusing ECMAScript and WebiDL
  335. # [12:42] <annevk2> though maybe in WebIDL they don't throw either
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  337. # [13:01] <Philip`> jgraham: In bed
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  339. # [13:07] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  340. # [13:11] <jgraham> Philip`: That's what you said last time I asked the same question
  341. # [13:12] <Philip`> jgraham: I sleep a lot
  342. # [13:12] <Philip`> Actually I don't, but I sleep a lot in mornings
  343. # [13:14] <jgraham> Whereas I actually do sleep a lot but am much less useful so people rarely notice
  344. # [13:15] * Joins: adambeynon (n=adambeyn@94-194-24-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  345. # [13:19] <Philip`> <script language="javascript">var p1="mai";var p2="lto:";var r="johnny";var d="superbikeschool.co.uk";document.write(("Johnny Haynes").link(p1+p2+r+String.fromCharCode(64)+d));</script>
  346. # [13:19] <Philip`> this.value=this.value.fontcolor(c);
  347. # [13:19] <Philip`> strsearch +=' <div class="bodytext"><strong>The Keyword(s) you searched : </strong></div>'.big() ;
  348. # [13:20] <Philip`> People seem to use these things quite a bit
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  363. # [15:14] <annevk2> hsivonen, I took the initiative of replying to adactio's Ariability post
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  369. # [15:32] <hsivonen> annevk2: cool
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  379. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk2: your comment system rejected http://pastebin.mozilla.org/643135 upon Post but not upon Preview
  380. # [16:33] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.40)
  381. # [16:35] <hsivonen> annevk2: in case you put it in via back door, typo fix: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/643136
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  384. # [16:42] <annevk2> hsivonen, added
  385. # [16:42] <hsivonen> annevk2: thanks
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  389. # [16:54] * myakura wonders if any browser vendors would support "grid" media features
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  414. # [18:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/04/html5-wai-aria#comment-6756 - the architectural forms link is broken
  415. # [18:14] <zcorpan> um or at least it was broken for me. but i could search for the url in waybackmachine and then it worked
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  452. # [20:55] <jwalden> olliej, annevk2, hsivonen, et al: the HTML String.prototype methods are broken, at least in SpiderMonkey, wrt escaping; I don't know whether this is common across implementations or not
  453. # [21:01] <jgraham> jwalden: The behaviour is the same in Squirrelfish and Futhark
  454. # [21:02] <jwalden> win!
  455. # [21:02] <jwalden> :-\
  456. # [21:02] <jgraham> jwalden: At least it makes the spec and implementation simple :)
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  459. # [21:10] <annevk2> jwalden, lets consider it a feature
  460. # [21:11] * Joins: mpilgrim_ (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  461. # [21:11] * mpilgrim_ wonders where the hell i'm logged in already
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  463. # [21:12] * mpilgrim_ is now known as mpilgrim
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  465. # [21:12] <mpilgrim> aha
  466. # [21:13] <annevk2> we call this hell #whatwg
  467. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> found this while digging for link rel discussions
  468. # [21:13] <mpilgrim> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-September/007301.html
  469. # [21:13] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@157.130.31.226)
  470. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> "I wonder how open the HTML WG will be with regards to working with the WHATWG and HTML 5, especially now that the 2 specs will share the same namespace. If we don't resolve the incompatibilities, one of the specs will simply be doomed to failure."
  471. # [21:16] <mpilgrim> fast forward to today: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-html-wg-minutes.html#item05
  472. # [21:16] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-281f5c7015dcf467)
  473. # [21:17] <mpilgrim> and http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
  474. # [21:17] <mpilgrim> "Current status: awaiting input from plh and Steve Pemberton as to next steps, will update the working group with status as it becomes available."
  475. # [21:19] <jwalden> I agree with "one of the specs will simply be doomed to failure"
  476. # [21:19] <jwalden> give you one guess which I mean
  477. # [21:19] <jgraham> Yeah well there is reality and there is W3C poliics
  478. # [21:20] <jgraham> The goal is to not let politics affect reality too much
  479. # [21:20] <annevk2> And there's me buying a round to the #whatwg channel if we give up now and let them have it :p
  480. # [21:21] <annevk2> Though that might not help as before #whatwg it didn't gain much traction either...
  481. # [21:23] <Hixie> if w3c politics could affect reality it wouldn't be such a big deal
  482. # [21:25] <mpilgrim> anyone know when rel=feed was added to the spec?
  483. # [21:26] <mpilgrim> earlier discussion i can find is http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/008080.html which references text already in the spec
  484. # [21:26] <Hixie> try an svn blame and then do spec archeology :-)
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  486. # [21:30] <annevk2> mpilgrim, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=334&to=335
  487. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> bless you
  488. # [21:30] <annevk2> mpilgrim, the frontpage of the tracker takes a hidden argument limit with a hidden value -1
  489. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> oooooh
  490. # [21:31] <annevk2> mpilgrim, it takes a while to complete the request but then you can do text search on the svn log
  491. # [21:33] <mpilgrim> what's the query parameter for that?
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  493. # [21:34] <mpilgrim> oh
  494. # [21:34] <mpilgrim> is it "limit"?
  495. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> yes, yes it is
  496. # [21:35] * mpilgrim enjoys talking to himself
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  498. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> wow, my article just got a whole lot better
  499. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> thanks annevk2
  500. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> i found checkins for virtually every rel value i want to talk about
  501. # [21:37] <annevk2> :)
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  504. # [22:00] <tantek> rel="feed" - interesting, first I've heard of this. mpilgrim, do you think it's a good idea? do you agree with Mark Baker's (theoretical) points he makes in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/008080.html
  505. # [22:02] <tantek> mpilgrim, also if you're writing an article about many rel values, perhaps this resource may be of assistance: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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  507. # [22:05] <Hixie> rel=feed was added because of implementations, iirc
  508. # [22:05] <Hixie> (and mark's e-mail i believe got an answer, mostly along the lines of "i'm just doing what browsers do", i imagine)
  509. # [22:08] <annevk2> I thought we added rel=feed because the existing solution became a mess
  510. # [22:09] <annevk2> afaik only Firefox supports it
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  522. # [23:30] <mpilgrim> test cases: http://diveintomark.org/tmp/relalternate.html and http://diveintomark.org/tmp/relfeed.html
  523. # [23:30] <mpilgrim> all modern browsers support the former (except google chrome, which has no feed autodiscovery at all)
  524. # [23:31] <mpilgrim> firefox 3 supports rel=feed
  525. # [23:31] <Hixie> sounds right
  526. # [23:31] <mpilgrim> firefox 2 does not support rel=feed
  527. # [23:32] <mpilgrim> opera 9.62 does not support rel=feed
  528. # [23:32] <mpilgrim> safari 4 beta does not support rel=feed
  529. # [23:32] <mpilgrim> IE8 final does not support rel=feed
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  533. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> rel=feed originated in the Atom working group in 2005
  534. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceDifferentRelValue
  535. # [23:45] <mpilgrim> this appears to be the origin: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15042.html
  536. # [23:46] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  537. # [23:46] <mpilgrim> my reaction to it at the time: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15069.html "Part of my newfound personal definition of a life well-lived is to never again argue about semantics, markup, or the "correct" way to use them. This Pace will break every aggregator on the planet, but then again, so will Atom 1.0 feeds, so... +0."
  538. # [23:47] * Joins: auk (n=scott@cpe-75-83-19-98.socal.res.rr.com)
  539. # [23:48] <mpilgrim> here's annevk2 explaining the benefits of rel=feed to sayrer: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg15074.html
  540. # [23:49] <mpilgrim> to answer tantek's original question, i think rel=feed is an interesting idea that hasn't panned out
  541. # [23:49] <mpilgrim> only one browser vendor has implemented it in 4 years
  542. # [23:50] <mpilgrim> author awareness is zero
  543. # [23:50] <mpilgrim> AFAIK, rel=feed links are not included in any major CMS's default templates
  544. # [23:51] <mpilgrim> though perhaps Philip` has some concrete data on that
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  546. # [23:53] <annevk2> the benefits I mention are very ahum compelling
  547. # [23:54] * mpilgrim doesn't know whether "ahum" is a typo or a new word he should look up
  548. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> firefox 3 support appears to be here: http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/browser/base/content/browser.js#2818
  549. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> it looks like removing support for rel=feed would be a matter of deleting a single case statement in browser.js
  550. # [23:54] <annevk2> apparently it's a word in the language Twi?! -- http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Twi/ahum
  551. # [23:54] <mpilgrim> and removing the associated tests cases
  552. # [23:55] <Philip`> I see four pages with rel=feed
  553. # [23:55] <annevk2> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ahum is also not that useful
  554. # [23:55] <Philip`> (based on token matches)
  555. # [23:55] <mpilgrim> 4 out of ...?
  556. # [23:55] <Philip`> and two of them are bogus
  557. # [23:55] <Philip`> Out of 130K from dmoz.org
  558. # [23:55] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  559. # [23:56] <Philip`> Oh, actually, 7 pages, but 3 are from the same site
  560. # [23:56] <mpilgrim> in the 2 valid cases, does the page also specify rel=alternate links?
  561. # [23:56] <Philip`> s/7/6/
  562. # [23:57] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160vobr.cable.mindspring.com)
  563. # [23:57] <sayrer> I dunno
  564. # [23:57] <sayrer> I'm pretty lazy
  565. # [23:57] <sayrer> I think someone made me do rel=feed
  566. # [23:57] <sayrer> and I can at least find some ESPN feeds that use it
  567. # [23:58] <mpilgrim> my question stands: are there a statistically significant number of pages that use rel=feed to the exclusion of other feed autodiscovery mechanisms?
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  569. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://www.dip-badajoz.es/municipios/municipio_dinamico/inicio/index_inicio.php?codigo=43 - <link rel="feed alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="/canales/atom_xml_bop.php?c=1&amp;u=1" title="&Uacute;ltimo B.O.P."/>
  570. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://www.volkswagen-stiftung.de/ - <link title="News und Termine der VolkswagenStiftung (RSS 2)" href="http://volkswagenstiftung.de/index.php?id=129&amp;type=100" type="application/rss+xml" rel="alternate feed" />
  571. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://www.tourismcapetown.co.za/ - <a href="rss20.xml" rel="RSS 2.0 Feed" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS Feed"><img border="0" src="img/template/rss20.gif" alt="RSS 20 Feed"></a>
  572. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://www.sevillagrande.com/ - <a href="rss.php" rel="rss feed" target="_blank"><img src="images/rss.gif" align="middle" alt="RSS" /></a>
  573. # [23:59] <Philip`> (plus two other pages from that first site)
  574. # [23:59] <sayrer> mpilgrim, it's a good question. I don't know.
  575. # [23:59] <mpilgrim> dip-badajoz.es would match on existing rel=alternate autodiscovery
  576. # [23:59] <Philip`> (This is from searching from parsed 'rel' attributes whose value matches (.*\s)?feed(\s|") (case-insensitive)
  577. # [23:59] <Philip`> )
  578. # [23:59] <mpilgrim> so would volkswagen-stiflung.de
  579. # [23:59] <Philip`> (Uh, where the " is a delimiter)
  580. # Session Close: Fri Apr 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)