/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:31] <annevk5> http://sharovatov.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/relcanonical/ more evidence as to why rel= fails
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  14. # [00:37] <Dashiva> annevk5: Heh, I didn't even notice the error until I went to read the comments on your post
  15. # [00:37] <annevk5> and I made a mistake too, I meant to say rev=
  16. # [00:38] * annevk5 blinks
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  97. # [07:34] <hsivonen> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/04/thoughts_on_rubys_html_reunifi.html
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  127. # [09:37] <jgraham> I am unconvinced that the bibliographic data use case is really strong. I mean it is very useful if there is a list of papers to be able to get bibliographic data for them but the main problem I had when using such systems was a) the bibliographic data was incorrect or b) the bibliographic data was in the wrong format and could not be trivially converted to the correct fprmat
  128. # [09:38] <jgraham> Neither of which seems like it can be solved at the HTML level
  129. # [09:40] <hsivonen> its pretty useful that ACM Portal gives you snippets you can paste into .bib
  130. # [09:40] <hsivonen> I used .bib with HTML in oder to avoid reinventing the wheel
  131. # [09:40] <hsivonen> *order
  132. # [09:41] <jgraham> My experience is mostly with NASA's ADS which can provide .bib
  133. # [09:41] <jgraham> A link to a bib file is a fine solution to the problem as long as a) you are using TeX and b) the information in the .bib is correct
  134. # [09:42] <jgraham> (my understanding is that in life sciences research, LaTeX is very uncommon and citations are usually in some other format)
  135. # [09:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: I used .bib without TeX
  136. # [09:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: off-the-shelf .bib parsers FTW
  137. # [09:45] <Philip`> Google Scholar provides BibTeX entries too
  138. # [09:45] <Philip`> (among other formats)
  139. # [09:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: What exactly did you do? Preprocess a HTML document adding bibtex-extracted information?
  140. # [09:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: preprocess an XHTML document to add a bibliography outputting both HTML and XHTML
  141. # [09:47] <jgraham> hsivonen: Code?
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  143. # [09:47] <jgraham> (it's not important, I'm just curious)
  144. # [09:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/ has a link
  145. # [09:47] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/bib4ht-0.9.tar.gz
  146. # [09:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
  147. # [09:53] * Philip` notes that the ACM people ask for the .tex or .doc source of submitted papers, and in the .tex case it must include the post-processed bibliography section (i.e. the .bbl file, not the .bib), so they can extract the metadata for the ACM digital library
  148. # [09:53] <Philip`> but I guess in the .doc case they'll have to extract it manually
  149. # [09:53] <jgraham> Philip`: The same is true on arXiv.org although I'm not sure they do anything useful with the bbl file
  150. # [09:56] <jgraham> It seems like "annotate structured data for private/small group use" and "using the data should not involve learing new vocabularies" are rather mutually contradictory requirements
  151. # [09:57] <jgraham> I'm also not sure what Amazon has to do with that use case since Amazon marking up its prices would presumably not be for small group use
  152. # [09:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: what if the small group already has a vocabulary
  153. # [09:59] <hsivonen> amazon is a group of one, I guess
  154. # [10:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Then class values - which are specifically excluded as a solution seem fine
  155. # [10:00] <jgraham> I'm not really sure why the use case document is discussing solutions there at all to be honest
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  158. # [10:12] <Philip`> http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/CSAML.html
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  160. # [10:15] <Hixie> class values are excluded as a solution?
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  162. # [10:17] <jgraham> Hixie: Using the data should not involve learning a plethora of new APIs, formats or vocabularies [...] it's possible to get information from sites consistently using 'class' values in a documented way, but doing so requires learning a new vocabulary
  163. # [10:17] <jgraham> (that should have been in quotes)
  164. # [10:18] <Hixie> ah, yes. well, that's the requirement someone had.
  165. # [10:18] <jgraham> That seems to at least suggest that class values are not an acceptable solution
  166. # [10:18] <Hixie> i don't know if it makes sense particularly.
  167. # [10:19] <jgraham> The whole requirement makes no sense to me because I don't think it is possible to get at novel information without learning the associated vocabulary
  168. # [10:19] <Hixie> well this is why we right down the requirements without thinking about whether they are possible or not
  169. # [10:19] <Hixie> if it turns out we can't find a solution, then we see which requirement we'd be first willing to drop
  170. # [10:20] <jgraham> Oh, I didn't realise that reasonableness and logical consistency weren't requirements on requirements
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  172. # [10:20] <Hixie> well it's hard to tell what's reasonable until you try to look for solutions
  173. # [10:21] <jgraham> This seems to fall more under logical consistency
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  176. # [10:23] * jgraham gets to a requirement with the words "generate custom UI" in, wishes the alarm bells and sirens would stop
  177. # [10:24] <Hixie> jgraham: it would be possible to come up with an API that solved all problems without the author having to learn any new languages
  178. # [10:25] <Hixie> jgraham: window.doTheRightThing(freeformTextInAnyNaturalLanguage);
  179. # [10:25] <Hixie> it might require a lot of work from implementations
  180. # [10:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Still doesn't work because the user would have to learn the right natural-language terms to use
  181. # [10:26] <Hixie> i could spec it so the method does the right thing regardless of which words are used :-)
  182. # [10:27] <jgraham> well yes, I guess window.readMyMind() would work for some definition of "work" which doesn't mind the fact that it may be impossible
  183. # [10:28] <Hixie> there's already research into mind-computer interaction
  184. # [10:28] <Hixie> it might not be as impossible as you think
  185. # [10:28] <Hixie> admittedly, unlikely to be suitable for a spec today
  186. # [10:28] <jgraham> Hixie: It's not the neural interface that I think is the hard part
  187. # [10:29] <jgraham> It's providing the answer to an ill-defined question provided by the neural interface
  188. # [10:29] <Hixie> fair enough
  189. # [10:29] <Hixie> anyway
  190. # [10:29] <jgraham> :)
  191. # [10:29] * Philip` thought mind-computer interaction was currently limited to distinguishing two states and therefore playing Pong
  192. # [10:29] <Hixie> i don't want to exclude requirements or use cases until i consider them seriously
  193. # [10:30] <Hixie> and i don't want to do that until i have a complete list
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  198. # [10:52] <Philip`> Someone should write a tool to generate names to use in use cases
  199. # [10:52] <Philip`> (Paul, David, Fred, etc)
  200. # [10:53] <Philip`> Ideally it would have a checkbox to make the names follow the pattern A*, B*, C*, etc, and sliders for gender diversity and racial diversity
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  202. # [10:59] <annevk2> Hixie, the sending steps specify WebSocket-Protocol but the receiving steps specify websocket-protocol
  203. # [11:00] <Hixie> correct
  204. # [11:00] <Hixie> the receiving steps lowercase the header.
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  206. # [11:02] <annevk2> hmm ok
  207. # [11:04] <Hixie> i was reading something recently about someone saying they liked minimal specs and comparing SVG and SMIL to canvas and other specs
  208. # [11:04] <Hixie> showing how the simpler ones were more effectively deployed and implemented
  209. # [11:04] <Hixie> but i can't work out where that is anymore
  210. # [11:04] <Hixie> anyone recognise what i'm talking about?
  211. # [11:05] <Hixie> might have been in the context of o3d...
  212. # [11:05] <annevk2> yes, it was in response to O3D by some Mozilla guy
  213. # [11:05] <annevk2> right
  214. # [11:05] <annevk2> hmm
  215. # [11:05] <Hixie> aha
  216. # [11:05] <Hixie> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=1223
  217. # [11:05] <Hixie> google rocks
  218. # [11:06] <Hixie> first hit for [o3d svg smil canvas]
  219. # [11:07] <Philip`> He seems to be overstating how high-level O3D is
  220. # [11:09] <Philip`> Something like X3D, where you can declare a sphere and it will be drawn, is much higher level than O3D, where you have to create a render graph that says to clear the buffer and traverse the object tree and execute a draw-list which is a lot of draw-elements, etc
  221. # [11:10] <Hixie> luckily for me, 3d is far outside my area of expertise
  222. # [11:12] <Philip`> (http://coderhump.com/archives/427 says some possibly interesting things)
  223. # [11:29] <hsivonen> I guess 3D solutions depend a lot on use cases
  224. # [11:29] <hsivonen> declarative scene graphs probably aren't important to have in browsers if you want to address gaming
  225. # [11:30] <hsivonen> but if you want to address rotatable e-commerce product samples, declarative scene graphs would be nice
  226. # [11:32] <Philip`> I don't think they help much with rotatable e-commerce product samples - you'd get a mesh from a 3D modelling program, use a standard library that renders it and rotates it using whatever underlying API there is, and that's that
  227. # [11:32] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  228. # [11:32] <Philip`> Declarative scene graphs (like in X3D) seem much more useful when people are creating complex 3D scenes, e.g. virtual worlds
  229. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I guess that depends on one's philosophical outlook on the Rule of Least Power
  230. # [11:33] <Philip`> (either by hand or using a special editing program)
  231. # [11:34] <Philip`> (People who I've heard using X3D seem to generally claim they like it because they don't have to be programmers to use it)
  232. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: there were an open multivendor declarative format with quality renderers in all browsers, wouldn't you want to use that on an ecommerce site?
  233. # [11:35] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  234. # [11:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: I don't see any reason why I'd prefer it to an open multivendor imperative format with quality renderers in all browsers
  235. # [11:35] <Philip`> s/format/API/
  236. # [11:35] <jgraham> Are there any real-life examples of non-games where 3D is adding significant value?
  237. # [11:35] <jgraham> (and I guess non-specialised application i.e. not medical imaging)
  238. # [11:35] <hsivonen> (I very well do see the point that the game-oriented API is needed and has faster time-to-market, so it may be that the scene graph approach never takes off)
  239. # [11:35] <Philip`> jgraham: Modern desktop UIs
  240. # [11:36] <Philip`> with their fancy zooms and rotating windows and stuff
  241. # [11:36] <jgraham> Philip`: That's not really 3D is it?
  242. # [11:36] <jgraham> I mean it's using the 3D card but most of the useful affects are really 2D
  243. # [11:36] <jgraham> /a/e/
  244. # [11:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: pseudo-3D (QuickTime VR) is used for showing shiny Apple products after Stevenotes
  245. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: is 2nd life a non-game? does it use real 3D?
  246. # [11:37] * hsivonen doesn't understand the use cases of 2nd life
  247. # [11:37] <hsivonen> (I've never used it)
  248. # [11:37] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I don't know if 2nd life is a non-game. I always saw it as a game
  249. # [11:37] <jgraham> (but I have also never used it)
  250. # [11:38] <Philip`> jgraham: They're generally mostly-2D-ish effects, but sometimes they're really 3D, like the window-switcher in Vista
  251. # [11:38] <Philip`> and other effects like the ripples when dropping widgets in OS X are only really possible with 3D technology like pixel shaders
  252. # [11:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: those are for CSS 3D transitions--not the 3D scene rendering stuff whatever that one ends up being
  253. # [11:38] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Remote closed the connection)
  254. # [11:39] <Philip`> Also there's stuff like the Cover Flow UI
  255. # [11:39] <jgraham> Philip`: Fair enough. That sounds like it needs a low-level API though
  256. # [11:39] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@62.82.106.5.static.user.ono.com)
  257. # [11:39] <hsivonen> how does O3D compare to Opera's canvas 3D from 2006?
  258. # [11:40] <Philip`> O3D differs in that it has features
  259. # [11:40] <Philip`> and a scene graph
  260. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I would hope that some of the use cases of 2nd life are the same as real life (and not just the same as games)
  261. # [11:40] <hsivonen> oh, I thought Opera had a scene graph
  262. # [11:40] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@202.3.77.136)
  263. # [11:40] <Philip`> Opera's thing just had some functions for transforming the viewpoint, and global state parameters for colours and textures, and then functions for drawing triangles and for drawing models (which are collections of triangles), and that was pretty much it
  264. # [11:42] <Philip`> Google Earth and Google Street View are obvious uses of 3D
  265. # [11:42] <jgraham> Ah, Google street view is quite a nice example I guess
  266. # [11:42] <Philip`> And if you have Google Earth in a browser, you might also want an editing program like SketchUp in there too
  267. # [11:42] <hsivonen> would one want to hand a declarative model of the Earch including building to a browser and let it figure out LOD and stuff?
  268. # [11:43] <hsivonen> *Earth
  269. # [11:43] <hsivonen> I do want browsers to obsolete the dedicated Google Earth desktop app
  270. # [11:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: You could do something like http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specifications/ISO-IEC-19775-1.2-X3D-AbstractSpecification/Part01/components/geodata.html#GeoLOD
  271. # [11:44] <hsivonen> anyway, moving Google Earth into a browser seems like a use case for a low-level rendering API--not for a standard scene graph
  272. # [11:44] <Philip`> where your declarative model of the Earth is a low-LOD version, and it declares the URLs of recursively higher-LOD versions
  273. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. makes sense
  274. # [11:45] * hsivonen wonders how many polygons a URL is worth in terms of bytes
  275. # [11:45] <Philip`> Not much fun if you're the first person in the world to want to do a 3D model of the Earth and the relevant features haven't been added to the declarative spec and all the implementations yet
  276. # [11:46] <Philip`> unless it provides enough low-level primitives that you can emulate the right effect with decent performance
  277. # [11:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: Use TinyURL!
  278. # [11:49] <hsivonen> It would be cool to have a .pov scene renderer on top of canvas 3D
  279. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> so Google Street View seems potentially related to the Social Web to me -- at least more so than widgets (which are mentioned specifically in the Social Web WG charter are)
  280. # [11:49] <hsivonen> procedural textures would be hard to convert, though
  281. # [11:50] <hsivonen> in 2002, I wrote a simple generator that took OpenGL calls and emitted .pov
  282. # [11:50] <hsivonen> when our team found that we wanted a scene graph for pre-rendering textures in POV-Ray when we already had the data entangled in the source of a C program
  283. # [11:52] <Philip`> hsivonen: Convert procedural textures into GLSL :-)
  284. # [11:55] <Philip`> Oh, another use case for 3D is to take the Web 2.0 idea of logos-on-a-reflective-surface and extend it to logos-on-a-reflective-surface-that-is-animated-like-rippling-water
  285. # [11:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-78-8.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  286. # [11:56] <Philip`> Also: adverts
  287. # [11:56] <Philip`> which need to be as visually stimulating as possible, while not taking so long to download that the user has left the page before it's shown
  288. # [11:59] * hsivonen notes that Google became successful in the ad business by having ads that aren't visually stimulating
  289. # [12:03] <Philip`> But obnoxious adverts still exist, so they're a valid use case
  290. # [12:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: wrong lesson. :-)
  291. # [12:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: we became successful by having them be useful
  292. # [12:06] <Philip`> "rel=next failed because UAs didn't expose it because authors didn't use it because UAs didn't expose it" - Opera's approach seems like a solution to that, since the 'forward' button will go to the rel=next page (if there is one) else it'll use some heuristics to guess where to go next
  293. # [12:07] <Philip`> and the heuristics are the way to bootstrap the process, so users will use the feature, and then authors will find it useful to improve the feature by using rel=next
  294. # [12:07] <Hixie> ok, rel=up
  295. # [12:07] * jgraham disagrees with Philip`
  296. # [12:07] <Hixie> but in general yes, if the browsers did something, it would be more useful
  297. # [12:07] <Hixie> rel=chapter might be an even better example
  298. # [12:07] <jgraham> Because I guess users don't use features that have unpredicatable behaviour
  299. # [12:08] <Philip`> jgraham: It might not actually work in practice, but I still think it seems like a solution :-)
  300. # [12:08] <Philip`> It'd be okay if the heuristics were generally reliable
  301. # [12:08] <jgraham> That's the problem with things that sound like they ought to work
  302. # [12:08] <Philip`> but the next-page heuristics in Opera only seem to work about half the time I try to use it
  303. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Fast Forward is the #1 Opera feature I miss in Firefox
  304. # [12:09] * Philip` likes how it works at navigating Apache directory listings, automatically knowing the next file in the sequence
  305. # [12:12] * hsivonen notes that Opera Mobile is pretty good at locating the start of real content after boilerplate cruft even without HTML5 structural elements and without ARIA
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  319. # [14:13] <Philip`> Hmm, did Sourceforge recently change its bug tracker to be even less usable?
  320. # [14:13] <Philip`> In particular it seems to hide all the comments by default
  321. # [14:14] <Philip`> (And the comments are in reverse chronological order, so you have to read up the page to understand the conversation)
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  332. # [14:59] <Lachy> Geocities has finally collapsed. http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/23/2339224
  333. # [14:59] <Lachy> "So Long, GeoCities: We Forgot You Still Existed" - LOL :-) http://www.pcworld.com/article/163765/so_long_geocities_we_forgot_you_still_existed.html
  334. # [15:00] * Philip` hopes the content will be archived somewhere
  335. # [15:01] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-5-252.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  336. # [15:02] <Philip`> I remember having fun searching for a nice-looking four-digit number in TimesSquare to create my site
  337. # [15:04] <Lachy> I guess the archive team might have a go at saving as much as they can. http://archiveteam.org/
  338. # [15:05] <Lachy> it's already on their Deathwatch list http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Deathwatch
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  348. # [15:49] <beowulf> if i had a gecko based html5 rendering bug, where'd be the best place to get help with defining it?
  349. # [15:51] <jgraham> beowulf: That might depend on exatly what you mean by a "gecko based HTML5 rendering bug"
  350. # [15:52] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@static-71-127-149-10.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  351. # [15:53] <beowulf> jgraham: yeah, i was pretty sure that I'd get the description of what i want wrong too :)
  352. # [15:54] <Philip`> This is a good place to get help with defining the description of what your problem is :-)
  353. # [15:54] <beowulf> i have nested lists which contain <a href=""><h2>foo</h2><p>bar</p></a>
  354. # [15:56] <Philip`> That sounds potentially problematic
  355. # [15:56] <beowulf> when this list gets repeated a few times the dom on one of these is different for one of the li's near the end on ff & camino
  356. # [15:56] <beowulf> i've tried reducing it here http://qa.getexceptional.com/test.html
  357. # [15:56] * jgraham guesses that camino is using an older version of gecko or something
  358. # [15:57] <beowulf> what happens is the <a> closes and reopens beofre and after each of the elements it wraps
  359. # [15:57] <beowulf> but only on one, and only when i make the list over a certain size
  360. # [15:58] <beowulf> in that test you'll see one set of elements bordered, this is the problem
  361. # [15:58] <Philip`> Hmm, they all look the same to me
  362. # [15:58] <beowulf> i hope you see it anyway
  363. # [15:58] <Philip`> (in Firefox 2)
  364. # [15:59] <beowulf> we're using ff3.02
  365. # [15:59] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  366. # [15:59] <beowulf> and camino 1.6.7
  367. # [15:59] * Philip` hypothesises that it's a packet-boundary issue
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  369. # [16:00] <beowulf> Philip`: explain more, as it does seem limited to an ec2 instance
  370. # [16:00] <Philip`> Ah, I see the bordering in FF3
  371. # [16:02] * Philip` checks in Wireshark
  372. # [16:02] <Philip`> Definitely looks like a packet-boundary issue :-)
  373. # [16:03] <Philip`> The HTTP response is split into two packets, and the boundary happens to be inside one of the <a>s
  374. # [16:04] <Philip`> and Firefox's parser does something weird which means it ends up closing various elements, before receiving the rest of the HTML in the next packet
  375. # [16:04] <Philip`> If you reload from cache, or if the packet boundary is outside the <a>, then you won't experience that bug
  376. # [16:05] <Philip`> (By "inside the <a>", I mean somewhere inside the content of the element, not inside the actual tag itself)
  377. # [16:05] <beowulf> which is fine if you're not putting a background on the <a>
  378. # [16:06] <Philip`> Putting <a> around block elements is probably a bad idea in general, given how Firefox parses such things
  379. # [16:06] <Philip`> but I think(?) that doing <a><span>...stuff with block elements...</span></a> will trick it into working sensibly
  380. # [16:07] <beowulf> Philip`: cool stuff, thanks for that
  381. # [16:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: Has someone already suggested that the validator should warn when you put block elements in <a> because it confuses things like Firefox?
  382. # [16:08] <Philip`> beowulf: Oh, and this is probably the best place to ask such questions :-)
  383. # [16:09] <beowulf> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/02/an-event-apart-and-html-5/ # tell meyer too :)
  384. # [16:09] <Rik|work> Philip`: why the validator should warn ? If it's allowed by the spec then it shouldn't warn
  385. # [16:09] <beowulf> Philip`: noted :)
  386. # [16:10] <Philip`> beowulf: Hmm, I read that when it was posted but didn't realise it was probably this packet-boundary issue
  387. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't remember. However, there's this new parser thing in the works for Firefox. :-)
  388. # [16:10] * jgraham maintains that the <a>-around-elements thing is a silly spec hack
  389. # [16:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: Doesn't help people like beowulf or meyer who are trying to write web pages that work today, and encounter crazy impossible-to-debug bugs
  390. # [16:11] <jgraham> s/elements/block-level-elements
  391. # [16:11] <beowulf> Philip`: what meyer is doing wouldn't neccessarily expose it, i don't think
  392. # [16:11] <beowulf> it was obvious to me because the <a>'s were styled as blocks with height and a background image
  393. # [16:11] <beowulf> (in my work)
  394. # [16:12] <Philip`> Rik|work: Because it helps inform people who try using the new HTML5 feature/hack of putting <a> around block elements and discover that it doesn't quite work as expected
  395. # [16:12] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-5-252.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  396. # [16:12] <Rik|work> Philip`: then you'll have to warn for all the features that are not yet implemented
  397. # [16:12] <Rik|work> or badly implemented
  398. # [16:13] <Philip`> Rik|work: They're usually pretty obvious and easy to understand, when a feature is just missing or really broken; whereas the <a> parsing thing is highly non-obvious to anybody who hasn't read Hixie's blog post from several years ago discussing the issue :-)
  399. # [16:13] <Philip`> beowulf: He says "What I didn’t want, though, was the randomized layout weirdness that resulted once I started styling the descendants of the link. Sometimes everything would lay out properly, and other times the bits and pieces were all over the place. I could (randomly) flip back and forth between the two just by repeatedly hitting reload." so it sounds like he exposed that bug
  400. # [16:14] <beowulf> Philip`: i should start reading the prose as well as the html :)
  401. # [16:14] <jgraham> We should really avoid new features that require validator warnings
  402. # [16:22] <Philip`> Oh, the <a><span>block</span></a> trick is invalid HTML5 :-(
  403. # [16:25] <Philip`> jgraham: But the warnings could be removed in maybe five years from now, and then we'd have a useful widely-deployed feature that people could use, whereas five years from now we won't want to still be changing the definition of valid HTML5
  404. # [16:26] <Philip`> (and we'll all have got bored with HTML and moved on to other areas, so there won't be an HTML6 that we could add the feature to)
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  431. # [17:40] <Philip`> Hmm, http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ is now providing 600,000 pages via Amazon S3
  432. # [17:41] <Philip`> and transferring data between S3 and EC2 is free, so it could be sensible to run analyses on EC2
  433. # [17:42] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.17.196)
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  435. # [17:42] <Philip`> but if it's only 3.2GB I could just download it onto my own computer, which has much more CPU power than sensibly-priced EC2 instances
  436. # [17:43] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com)
  437. # [17:44] <Philip`> Not much point using the torrent since there's only one seed...
  438. # [17:45] <Philip`> (and no other peers)
  439. # [17:48] * Quits: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@67.218.104.46)
  440. # [17:48] <Philip`> Looks like it's restricted to text/html files
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  444. # [17:54] <beowulf> Philip`: any light reading you could recommend that might help me understand packet boundary issues?
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  447. # [17:57] <Philip`> beowulf: Not quite sure what you're looking for - packets in general, or their effect on Firefox parsing of HTML, or something?
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  450. # [17:59] <beowulf> Philip`: yeah, maybe I mean a "how a browser works" kind of read
  451. # [18:02] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@194.102.13.6)
  452. # [18:02] <Philip`> beowulf: Hmm, still not quite sure what you're looking for :-)
  453. # [18:03] <Philip`> The weirdness in Firefox isn't documented anywhere as far as I'm aware, but it's mentioned in http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1138169545&count=1
  454. # [18:03] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  455. # [18:03] <Philip`> Packets in general are just like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_(information_technology) (there are probably much better references but I don't know of any in particular)
  456. # [18:08] <beowulf> Philip`: thanks for the hixie.ch link (packets in general is fine)
  457. # [18:10] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  458. # [18:12] <Philip`> gzip is slow :-(
  459. # [18:12] <Philip`> particularly when it's a 15GB file that's been gzipped
  460. # [18:12] * Philip` supposes he should split it into smaller chunks for future processing
  461. # [18:13] <Philip`> (to benefit from multi-core goodness)
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  465. # [18:24] <gsnedders> w00t
  466. # [18:25] <gsnedders> just had Flash crash my browser for the second time in as many days
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  470. # [18:31] * Philip` tries grepping the dotnetdotcom data
  471. # [18:31] <Philip`> Hmm, quite a lot of rel="canonical"
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  478. # [19:04] <gmiernicki> fuck flash... <audio> <video> is teh future!
  479. # [19:04] <gmiernicki> uh, <canvas> too :)
  480. # [19:05] <gmiernicki> actually kinda wondering lately if video and canvas tags can be combined
  481. # [19:05] <gmiernicki> perhaps embedding a <video> in a <canvas>
  482. # [19:05] <Rik|work> gmiernicki: you can in firefox
  483. # [19:05] <Rik|work> paul rouget did some nice demos
  484. # [19:06] <gmiernicki> interesting, ill see if i can find em
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  487. # [19:12] <gmiernicki> amazing
  488. # [19:12] <gmiernicki> http://people.mozilla.com/~prouget/demos/DynamicContentInjection/play.xhtml
  489. # [19:12] <gmiernicki> just what i was wondering ;D
  490. # [19:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ebb0a75893601049)
  491. # [19:12] <gmiernicki> drawImage() is more powerful than i thought
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  495. # [19:39] <Philip`> Based on data from presumably quite recently, rel="canonical" is approximately the 33rd most common rel/rev value
  496. # [19:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I guess it's bad if I get java.nio.BufferUnderflowException when calling nu.validator.htmlparser.sax.HtmlParser.parse?
  497. # [19:43] * Philip` hopes he's not just doing something stupid himself
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  503. # [20:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/misc/gumpu-rundiary.txt
  504. # [20:00] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@94.196.14.192.threembb.co.uk) ("Gone for a burton")
  505. # [20:00] <Philip`> using htmlparser-1.2.0
  506. # [20:00] <Philip`> and new HtmlParser(XmlViolationPolicy.ALLOW);
  507. # [20:01] <Philip`> I get:
  508. # [20:01] <Philip`> Exception in thread "main" java.nio.BufferUnderflowException at java.nio.Buffer.nextGetIndex(Buffer.java:474) at java.nio.HeapByteBuffer.get(HeapByteBuffer.java:117) at nu.validator.htmlparser.io.HtmlInputStreamReader.read(HtmlInputStreamReader.java:297)
  509. # [20:01] <Philip`> etc
  510. # [20:01] <Philip`> (If I make the file any smaller then the problem seems to go away)
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  514. # [20:17] <Philip`> (That error came from gumpu.rundiary.co.kr/content.asp?menu=550&eid=6136&title= )
  515. # [20:17] <Philip`> (I get the same on www.aladdin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8956743339 )
  516. # [20:17] <Philip`> (I blame Korea)
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  520. # [20:34] <aboodman> slightlyoff: interesting thread about EventTarget
  521. # [20:34] <aboodman> I'm not sure I get the value of doing this natively though
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  523. # [20:34] <aboodman> poo
  524. # [20:34] <slightlyoff_> aboodman: eh, the proposal that arv made doesn't go as far as I'd lke
  525. # [20:34] <slightlyoff_> still here = )
  526. # [20:35] <slightlyoff_> basically I'd like all methods on objects to be listenable by default
  527. # [20:35] <aboodman> is it just another example of something like bind() that should have been there from the beginning,or is there mroe?
  528. # [20:35] <aboodman> basically, is there something here that isn't possible in js
  529. # [20:35] <slightlyoff_> instead of needing to create/implement EventTarget objects/interfaces
  530. # [20:35] <slightlyoff_> aboodman: no, but I think that's the wrong test these days
  531. # [20:35] <aboodman> sure, just trying to understand the proposal :)
  532. # [20:36] <aboodman> not arguing against
  533. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> aboodman: we've gone a decade on "the minimum you could theoretically get away with"
  534. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> I'd like us to start working up the food chain to "something you might actually want to use"
  535. # [20:36] <aboodman> it helps for the proposal to clarify whether this is a new fundamental capability though, think.
  536. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> it's a unification
  537. # [20:36] <aboodman> one new fundamental capability i think ... someobdy .. should think about
  538. # [20:36] <aboodman> weak references
  539. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> yes
  540. # [20:36] <aboodman> an event system w/o weak references kinda sucks
  541. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> agreed
  542. # [20:36] <slightlyoff_> I'd like that a lot
  543. # [20:37] <slightlyoff_> and JS needs weakrefs anyway
  544. # [20:37] <slightlyoff_> else you leak badly
  545. # [20:37] <aboodman> yes, that's what i mean
  546. # [20:37] <slightlyoff_> just by dint of doing stuff that allocates
  547. # [20:37] <aboodman> separately from this proposal, a weak ref proposal would be useful
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  549. # [20:37] <aboodman> we can already implement this very easily in v8
  550. # [20:37] <slightlyoff_> I was thinking that = )
  551. # [20:37] <slightlyoff_> just a different kind of pointer wrapper = )
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  553. # [20:37] <aboodman> i mean v8 already has native weak refernces
  554. # [20:37] <aboodman> i don't know about the other engines
  555. # [20:38] <aboodman> i assume they must have something similar too
  556. # [20:38] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/rel-rev-200904.txt - now with some rel=canonical
  557. # [20:39] <jgraham> Google code is getting mercurial! Awesome
  558. # [20:39] <takkaria> orly?
  559. # [20:39] <takkaria> that's interesting
  560. # [20:39] <Philip`> Not Git?
  561. # [20:39] * Philip` vaguely remembers that Sourceforge added both
  562. # [20:40] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ebb0a75893601049) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  563. # [20:40] <Philip`> (which is strange because it took them five years to add Subversion support)
  564. # [20:40] <Philip`> (Warning: "five" is a totally made up number and may not reflect reality)
  565. # [20:41] <slightlyoff_> Philip`: didn't Google Code *start* on SVN?
  566. # [20:41] <aboodman> yes.
  567. # [20:41] <slightlyoff_> oh, right, misread
  568. # [20:41] <aboodman> the backend wasn't svn though
  569. # [20:42] <Philip`> slightlyoff_: I meant Sourceforge which was stuck with CVS until long after it had gone out of fashion :-)
  570. # [20:42] <slightlyoff_> Philip`: yeah, my bad
  571. # [20:43] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  572. # [20:43] <Philip`> http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/04/mercurial-support-for-project-hosting.html - "Our implementation of Mercurial is built on top of Bigtable, making it extremely scalable and reliable just like our Subversion on Bigtable implementation." - they wrote their own Mercurial and Subversion servers?
  573. # [20:44] <Philip`> (or new storage backends for the existing server code or something?)
  574. # [20:44] <aboodman> Philip`: basically; they implement the protocols
  575. # [20:44] <slightlyoff_> Philip`: you didn't think they were going to get to high availability on the back of fsfs, did you?
  576. # [20:44] * kinetik_ is now known as kinetik
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  579. # [20:46] * Philip` has only had FSFS get horribly corrupted once in several thousand commits
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  587. # [21:05] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/3470720119/ — oh noes! it's mes!
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  589. # [21:12] <gsnedders> Is it bad that just having annevk link to my site caused a notable spike in traffic?
  590. # [21:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: I get notable spikes in traffic just from being linked from comments in blogs
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  633. # Session Close: Sat Apr 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)