/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: no need to change anything for getElementsByTagName(), right? (case-sensitivity issue with svg in text/html)
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  11. # [00:54] <annevk5> it should prolly be moved to Web DOM Core in due course
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  40. # [03:23] <Hixie> heycam: Is getting Date into WebIDL on your radar?
  41. # [03:28] <heycam> Hixie, it's on my radar in as much as i still have that mail flagged to reply to :)
  42. # [03:28] <heycam> do you want it so that you can have an ES Date object there?
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  44. # [03:34] <Hixie> HTML5 uses Date in one of the interfaces, and someone noticed that that doesn't have a definition anyway
  45. # [03:35] <heycam> is your intention for it to map to an ES Date object?
  46. # [03:35] <Hixie> yes
  47. # [03:35] <Hixie> i was using DOMTimeStamp which was defined that way but it changed :-)
  48. # [03:35] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0458.html
  49. # [03:36] <heycam> hmm, there's no entry in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#reflect for Dates
  50. # [03:37] <heycam> would you expect myTimeElement.date.setDate(...) to do something?
  51. # [03:37] <Hixie> there aren't any DOM attributes of type Date that reflect anything as far as i know
  52. # [03:37] <heycam> ones on TimeElement do
  53. # [03:37] <heycam> s/T/HTMLT/
  54. # [03:38] <heycam> so actually it's just dateTime on HTMLTimeElement that is defined to reflect
  55. # [03:38] <Hixie> not as far as i can tell
  56. # [03:38] <Hixie> yeah
  57. # [03:38] <heycam> ok
  58. # [03:38] <heycam> so myTimeElement.date returns a new Date object each time it's got?
  59. # [03:40] <Hixie> yeah i guess that would be best
  60. # [03:40] <Hixie> that way there's no worry about the object being some weird live thing
  61. # [03:40] <heycam> yeah
  62. # [03:41] <heycam> (but maybe it'd be nice if a Date object could be read only somehow)
  63. # [03:41] <heycam> an ES Date, that is
  64. # [03:41] <Hixie> i think i'd rather not introduce new complexity for browsers to screw up
  65. # [03:42] <heycam> anyway, it's on my radar (though i don't seem to have a note for it; i'll add one now)
  66. # [03:43] * heycam goes to get some breakf.. uh, brunch
  67. # [03:50] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  68. # [03:50] <Hixie> later
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  88. # [05:25] <mpilgrim> http://twitter.com/fiddlerelf/status/1674755344
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  97. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> about JSONDB, etc., proposals for document-based unstructured client-side storage: in what ways are these alternatives to SQL-based structured storage?
  98. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> it seems more like they are alternatives to simple name/value storage -- localStorage
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  100. # [06:08] * MikeSmith re-reads http://blog.vlad1.com/2009/04/06/html5-web-storage-and-sql/
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  104. # [06:32] * MikeSmith notices that Hixie forgot to set the authors and validators flags in his checkin description for r3054
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  110. # [07:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: Re: getElementsByTagName
  111. # [07:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: the sentence "ames of HTML elements match regardless of case, but elements from other namespaces are treated as in XML (case-sensitively)." is bad
  112. # [07:04] <Hixie> yeah i don't know what non-normative text to put
  113. # [07:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: the next sentence, which is not equivalent, is OK
  114. # [07:05] <Hixie> the next sentence is an implementation conformance criteria
  115. # [07:05] <Hixie> so it's not always visible
  116. # [07:05] <Hixie> which leaves... nothing
  117. # [07:05] <Hixie> for the authors
  118. # [07:05] <Hixie> hence the annoying sentence
  119. # [07:06] <hsivonen> HTML elements match by lower-casing the argument before comparison
  120. # [07:06] <Hixie> MikeSmith: technically, we readded type=tel, it was in an early WF2 draft :-)
  121. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah
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  123. # [07:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: ok
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  133. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how does offline cache relate to parsing
  134. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> (in regard to http://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/1669704043)
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  136. # [08:22] <Hixie> manifest attribute is processed in the parser
  137. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> ah
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  139. # [08:38] <archtech> has anything from HTML% been adopted in IE8/
  140. # [08:38] <archtech> Ops, pardon the typos :P HTML5
  141. # [08:40] <Hixie> offhand, onhashchange, localStorage, sessionStorage, and postMessage()
  142. # [08:40] <archtech> Oh, great, I thought onHashChange was proprietary.
  143. # [08:40] <archtech> Thanks, Hixie.
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  147. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> archtech: I think IE8 also supports navigator.online
  148. # [08:53] <archtech> MikeSmith, great :)
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  156. # [09:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah but that one was added to html5 because they implemented it and we needed something similar :-)
  157. # [09:30] <archtech> Hixie, that's a great approach to standards as well :) it has to work both ways.
  158. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie: huh, didn't know that came from IE originally
  159. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> drag-and-drop from IE originally also?
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  163. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> 'Frankly, I'm finding this whole "rock star on the edge" thing is getting old.'
  164. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> I think it's actually the real rock starts on the edge who are getting old.
  165. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> or who have gotten old
  166. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> but I don't know who the rock star is in this particular case
  167. # [09:49] * virtuelv goes to read mrlastweek
  168. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: that ain't MLW
  169. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> MLW differs in terms of humor
  170. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> a sense of humor, that is
  171. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> that is, in having one
  172. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> sort of
  173. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> anyway, I guess the rock star on the edge in this case is mpilgrim
  174. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> mpilgrim: your petty bickering risks undermining the credibility of the entire effort
  175. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> so please stop that
  176. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> the petty bickering, at least
  177. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> please do keep up the rock star part though
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  179. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> "An end result of such shenanigans is that web page validity no longer means what it used to mean."
  180. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> yes. good.
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  182. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> though we prefer the term "jackassery"
  183. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> " In the future, to get a "valid" stamp means that we have to adhere to a small, controlling group of people's interpretation of what the web should be,..."
  184. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> here's to hoping that more people do adopt that attitude that "this page is valid <whatever>" stamps are totally worthless
  185. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> regardless of what their reasons for adopting that attitude are
  186. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I do like the "This page is valid in crappy biased markup" proposal, though.
  187. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> that one is a keeper
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  190. # [10:14] <Lachy> Hixie, the new <hgroup> element seems completely useless. Why should anyone bother using it around heading elements? What's the difference between:
  191. # [10:14] <Lachy> <header><hgroup><h1>Foo</h1><h2>Bar</h2></hgroup> <p>more header content...</header> and
  192. # [10:14] <Lachy> <header><h1>Foo</h1><h2>Bar</h2> <p>more header content...</header>
  193. # [10:15] <annevk5> counts as a single heading in an outline prolly
  194. # [10:16] <Lachy> <header> should do that by itself
  195. # [10:17] <annevk5> <header> doesn't influence outline at all
  196. # [10:17] <Lachy> oh, he made <header> not be heading content :-(
  197. # [10:18] <Lachy> That really sucks
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  199. # [10:21] <billyjackass> Lachy: your anti-hgroup vehemence is refreshing
  200. # [10:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-74-119.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Nick collision from services.)
  201. # [10:22] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  202. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> but it's too late
  203. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> I've already made a patch that adds <hgroup> to validator.nu
  204. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> so it's in the validator, and therefore now the Word of God
  205. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> and hsivonen has finally come to his senses about the "no badges" nonsense
  206. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> and agreed to start issuing badges
  207. # [10:24] * annevk5 wonders if http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009May/0003.html was ever public knowledge
  208. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> the v.nu-issued badge will say, "This page is valid in crappy biased markup"
  209. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> but it will be a badge nonetheless
  210. # [10:25] <annevk5> "This is good to hear. Geo APIs was booted out of WebApps because of IP threats from Nokia; has that now changed?"
  211. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> annevk5: that's not the reason it was "booted out of WebApps", so it doesn't really matter
  212. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> it was never "in" WebApps to begin with, for one thing
  213. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> and given that the Geolocation work has been very successful by any rational measure that anybody'd care to use (e.g., multiple implementations shipped already, actual people benefitting from it already)..
  214. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> well, I'd hope people would find something better to worry about
  215. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> like our petty bickering here
  216. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> which is undermining the credibility of the entire effort
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  218. # [10:36] <annevk5> we have credibility? :p
  219. # [10:38] <Lachy> MikeSmith, it's never too late to reverse a mistake introduced into the spec, and hgroup is one of those things that won't last long
  220. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> oh, it will last. It has a chapter and verse number already.
  221. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> Lachy: are you suggesting we remove verses from the Bible?
  222. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I don't God would like that.
  223. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I mean, he wrote that book.
  224. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> indirectly, at least
  225. # [10:39] <Hixie> hsivonen is ok with badges now?
  226. # [10:39] <Hixie> have you been giving him some of your drugs
  227. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> I sense the hand of God in the HTML5 spec. Either that or the hand of Satan. can't tell which quite yet.
  228. # [10:40] <Lachy> MikeSmith, sure. Stuff has been added and removed from the bible many times over the past 2000 years (although not so much recently)
  229. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I was speaking on hsivonen's behalf. Have not checked with him yet, but I am reasonably confident that he will see the wisdom in the "This page is valid in crappy biased markup" badge.
  230. # [10:41] <Hixie> Lachy: <header> has to be allowed to contain <nav>, that's the way people want to use it. Given that, it can't be part of the outlining algorithm, Given that, unless we want every spec on W3C space to have one subsection called "Working Draft - 2 April 2009" or whatever, we need an hx grouping element for subheadings.
  231. # [10:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: uh huh :-P
  232. # [10:43] <Philip`> I don't like badges
  233. # [10:43] <Philip`> but stickers are great
  234. # [10:43] <Philip`> We should have more stickers
  235. # [10:44] <Lachy> Hixie, The previous content model for it already did allow <nav> as a descendant.
  236. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, we are going to use the following at the v.nu badge -
  237. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> http://blog.zugara.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/leprechaun.jpg
  238. # [10:45] <Hixie> MikeSmith: (maybe you could convince him to use "I Check My Markup With validator.nu!" without saying it's valid)
  239. # [10:46] <Hixie> Lachy: no it didn't
  240. # [10:46] <Hixie> Lachy: it disallowed sectioning content descendants
  241. # [10:46] <Hixie> Lachy: nothing can be heading and contain sectioning at the sam e time
  242. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah (seriously) that would be good. would be good also if W3C validator stopped issuing the badges it does now, and issues an "I Check My Markup..." thing instead
  243. # [10:46] <Philip`> That wouldn't fit on the button
  244. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I'm working on that
  245. # [10:47] <Philip`> Maybe use an animated GIF with marquee text
  246. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> heh
  247. # [10:47] <Hixie> parents around here have "My Student Is An Honour Student At Bla Bla High School" as bumper stickers
  248. # [10:47] <Hixie> maybe we can have "My Web Page Was Checked With validator.nu!" as bumper stickers
  249. # [10:47] <Hixie> give them out at conferences
  250. # [10:48] <Lachy> oh, I misread it.
  251. # [10:49] <Lachy> also, the 3rd example for <header> now looks a little crazy. Why are the "Important News" and "Games" headings included within the header?
  252. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> Lachy: Get thee behind me. Nothing in the Bible has ever been added or removed. Some things in particular *serializations* of the Bible have been added or removed. But the
  253. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> But the abstract model of the Bible has never been altered, and is unalterable.
  254. # [10:50] <Lachy> haha
  255. # [10:51] <Lachy> MikeSmith, stories were written and added to the bible by hundreds of men over many centuries
  256. # [10:51] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah the examples could be improved... send mail or file a bug if you have any better ideas
  257. # [10:52] <Philip`> Lachy: But those hundreds of men were just expressing the fundamental truth laid down by God, so it is as if the book came from a single hand
  258. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> Philip`: Amen.
  259. # [10:53] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  260. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> Hallelujah
  261. # [10:53] <Lachy> yeah, and all those men who made copies of it by hand and introduced their own "corretions" in the process were just acting on behalf of god too...
  262. # [10:53] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  263. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> the Holy Spirit chooses Philip` to speak through now and then
  264. # [10:54] <Lachy> :-D
  265. # [10:57] <Philip`> Lachy: They were just fixing typos
  266. # [10:58] <Philip`> or, uh, scribos
  267. # [10:58] <Philip`> because maybe the people writing down the original were a bit drunk at one point and started making up a few extra sections, and so the later people had to fix those mistakes
  268. # [10:59] <Philip`> Or maybe they made changes as a way of detecting copyright infringement, like how map makers include fake roads so they can see who's copied their maps
  269. # [10:59] <Lachy> yeah, and I'm sure it had nothing to do with needing the bible to suit the needs of the religious leaders at the time, wanting to control the public with it.
  270. # [11:00] <Lachy> (copyright didn't exist until the 18th century)
  271. # [11:04] <Philip`> "One of the earliest copyright disputes reputedly took place in 557 A.D. between Abbot Finnian of Moville and St. Columba over St. Columba's copying of a Psalter belonging to an Abbot. The dispute over ownership of the copy led to the Battle of Cúl Dreimhne (also known as the Battle of Cooldrumman), in which 3,000 men were killed."
  272. # [11:06] <Lachy> sure, but there were no copyright laws at the time.
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  274. # [11:08] <Philip`> The concept of "if you copy my stuff, I'll send my army to attack your army" seems much more powerful than any copyright law
  275. # [11:12] <Lachy> oddly enough, that's similar to the technique being employed today by the RIAA/MPAA, only using lawyers instead of soldiers and slightly less killing
  276. # [11:13] <Philip`> So, apart from being completely different, it's similar?
  277. # [11:13] <annevk5> why is it impossible to find the anolis spec generator?
  278. # [11:13] * annevk5 wonders what keyword he's missing
  279. # [11:13] <Lachy> http://anolis.gsnedders.com/
  280. # [11:13] <annevk5> that's just the source code
  281. # [11:13] <Philip`> gsnedders needs more Google juice
  282. # [11:14] <Lachy> http://pimpmyspec.net/
  283. # [11:14] <Philip`> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Developing_HTML5_derivatives points at http://pimpmyspec.net/ if that's what you want
  284. # [11:17] <annevk5> ta
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  288. # [11:36] <annevk42> Hixie, why the inconsistency in the event handler attribute tables? first heading lowercase, second heading starts with a capital
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  294. # [12:30] <virtuelv> WHile being completely off topic: Could someone bash the twitter-folks over the head with the largest cluebat you can find?
  295. # [12:32] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1120-ipbf2303marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  296. # [12:32] <virtuelv> Whatever was wrong with loading actual pages using actual URLs, instead of pretending everything is pointing to a document fragment
  297. # [12:38] <annevk42> looks a lot better than before actually, imo
  298. # [12:39] <annevk42> and it's not like you need to share the URLs, they're all bound to your login details anyway
  299. # [12:47] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  300. # [12:49] <virtuelv> yes, but it actually feels much slower than before
  301. # [12:51] <virtuelv> and I see no particular good reason for abolishing loading pages
  302. # [12:53] <annevk42> making things look better :)
  303. # [12:56] <gsnedders> And when it fails you have to reload everything and start from the newest all over again
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  321. # [13:56] * gsnedders wonders about automatically getting titles for photos based upon geo data
  322. # [13:57] <gsnedders> (i.e., writing code to allow me to be lazy in the future)
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  330. # [15:04] <Philip`> How exciting
  331. # [15:04] <Philip`> Mr & Mrs Last Week posted a link to http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:(somewhere you probably don't want to bother looking)&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a
  332. # [15:04] <Philip`> which suggests they're either a Firefox user from the UK, or else copied a Google cache link from someone who was
  333. # [15:05] <gsnedders> Damnit! And I always thought they were IE users!
  334. # [15:05] <Philip`> (Well, probably the 'view PDF as HTML' link rather than the cache)
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  337. # [15:22] <Philip`> The 'pv' tool is great
  338. # [15:23] <Philip`> If you're doing command-line processing of (as a hypothetical example) a 2GB gzipped file with some decompression and greps and perls and suchlike, you can just stick pv into the pipeline and it'll tell you how fast the processing is going and give you an ETA
  339. # [15:25] * Philip` gets a fairly consistent 11 MB/sec, and is unsure whether that's good or not
  340. # [15:27] <Dashiva> Disk IO speed would be one possible baseline for comparison
  341. # [15:28] <Philip`> cat >/dev/null goes at 722 MB/sec
  342. # [15:28] <Dashiva> That seems a bit... high
  343. # [15:28] <Philip`> md5sum goes at 228 MB/sec
  344. # [15:29] <Dashiva> I suppose if you have the 3Gb SATA
  345. # [15:29] <Philip`> It would be a bit high if it was actually reading from physical disk, not from the file cache
  346. # [15:29] <Dashiva> No, even then...
  347. # [15:29] <Philip`> since it's really just reading from RAM
  348. # [15:29] <Dashiva> Yeah, true
  349. # [15:30] <Philip`> gzip -cd|md5sum goes at 11 MB/sec
  350. # [15:30] <Philip`> so I blame gzip
  351. # [15:31] * Philip` assumes the disks are SATA, but doesn't really know
  352. # [15:32] <Dashiva> Tried different compression levels?
  353. # [15:32] <Philip`> and I don't know how to find out how fast they are
  354. # [15:36] <Philip`> The output from gzip -cd goes at ~185 MB/s if I compress with -1
  355. # [15:36] <Philip`> The output from gzip -cd goes at ~205 MB/s if I compress with -9
  356. # [15:37] <Philip`> and there's a roughly linear increase between those points
  357. # [15:37] <Philip`> (The input to gzip is faster with -1, but there's a lot more of it)
  358. # [15:42] <Philip`> But I'm way too lazy to wait for it to recompress 35GB of data with gzip -9
  359. # [15:42] <Dashiva> Hmm
  360. # [15:42] <Dashiva> But you blamed gzip for 11 MB/sec earlier
  361. # [15:42] <Philip`> (even though I'm insufficiently lazy that I'll spend two minutes counting that it's 35GB)
  362. # [15:42] <Dashiva> Now you're saying it's 180-200
  363. # [15:42] <Philip`> 11 MB/sec input
  364. # [15:43] <Philip`> 200 MB/sec output
  365. # [15:43] <Dashiva> ah
  366. # [15:43] * Philip` should probably be clearer about such things
  367. # [15:45] <Dashiva> Well, it makes sense
  368. # [15:48] <Philip`> Oops, the files I've been looking at aren't all text/html
  369. # [15:48] <Philip`> I'm sure they were when I last looked, but they certainly haven't changed since then...
  370. # [15:51] <Philip`> Hmm, I've got 1500 more content-type headers than pages
  371. # [15:53] <Philip`> http://www.agriaffaires.de/gebrauchte/andere-landwirtschaftliche-anhaenger/698421/krampe-big-body-600-premium.html
  372. # [15:53] <Philip`> *13* content-type headers?!
  373. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Why not? I mean, it's hardly if browsers about any but the last.
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  379. # [17:04] <Dashiva> In the future, to get a "valid" stamp means that we have to adhere to a small, controlling group of people's interpretation of what the web should be, and I'm just not willing to go there.
  380. # [17:04] <Dashiva> Isn't this how it has been all along?
  381. # [17:06] <jgraham> Philip`: You written any useful scripts to work with the dotnetdotorg data?
  382. # [17:06] <Philip`> Dashiva: No
  383. # [17:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's been a *different* small, controlling group of people
  384. # [17:08] <Dashiva> Right, my bad
  385. # [17:10] <Dashiva> I also like the part where it goes "I guess the browser vendors want to cooperate [...] Look forward to lots of browser incompatability"
  386. # [17:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@65.123.0.210)
  387. # [17:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Where does it say that?
  388. # [17:12] <Philip`> Also, what "it" is it?
  389. # [17:12] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-157-222.perm.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  390. # [17:12] <Dashiva> http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-web-issues-and-practices/going-non-standard
  391. # [17:13] <Philip`> Dashiva: I can't see any mentions of e.g. looking forward to incompatibility in there
  392. # [17:13] <Philip`> Oh, wait, maybe it sort of says that in the last-but-one paragraph
  393. # [17:13] <Philip`> though not with your words or your spelling error
  394. # [17:14] <Dashiva> Yeah, I always typo that
  395. # [17:15] <Dashiva> I've started getting ominous right, though!
  396. # [17:15] <Philip`> Oh my nous!
  397. # [17:16] <Dashiva> I still think omnious sounds more ominous. But it's a lost battle.
  398. # [17:16] <Philip`> I find it hard to understand the comment "You know who really makes me mad? The browser companies. They want obfuscation. They want imprecision. They want gaps. They want things in a state of confusion, so they can do what they want, and not have to worry about "standards"."
  399. # [17:17] <Philip`> since as far as I'm aware the browser companies formed the WHATWG specifically in response to imprecision and confusion and gaps in the W3C's specification of web technologies
  400. # [17:17] <Dashiva> I reckon it's just the usual misunderstanding of how things work
  401. # [17:17] <Philip`> and HTML5 defines everything precisely and tries to fill in all the gaps
  402. # [17:17] <jgraham> I find it really hard to understand Shelly in general. I really don't understand why she's so angry all the time
  403. # [17:17] <Philip`> (though it may still be obfuscated and confusing)
  404. # [17:17] <Dashiva> jgraham: Maybe the owls are out to get her
  405. # [17:18] <jgraham> Dashiva: Owls deliver post
  406. # [17:18] <Dashiva> They also come in the night and tear your legs apart
  407. # [17:18] <Philip`> Can owls deliver get too?
  408. # [17:19] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't recall Owls doing anything that resembles a get
  409. # [17:19] <Dashiva> They get field mice
  410. # [17:19] <jgraham> So HTTP over Owl would be non-trivial
  411. # [17:19] <Dashiva> Or I suppose that's more of a delete
  412. # [17:19] <Philip`> Or a head, depending on how hard they bite
  413. # [17:19] <Dashiva> Head is supposed to be safe, isn't it?
  414. # [17:20] <jgraham> Idempotent
  415. # [17:20] <Dashiva> Okay, then it's okay I guess
  416. # [17:20] <jgraham> Maybe if we could train them to only attach starfish and other creatures that can regrow parts of their body
  417. # [17:21] <jgraham> *attack
  418. # [17:21] <Philip`> jgraham: I have a Perl script that splits the file into more-easily-parseable parallelisable chunks, and a couple of organically grown (i.e. horridly written) Java programs to do grep and to run various analyses on the parsed content
  419. # [17:21] <Dashiva> But isn't idempotent defined as repeated applications being the same as one application?
  420. # [17:21] <Dashiva> Without saying anything about initial state vs one application
  421. # [17:23] <Philip`> jgraham: How about axolotls?
  422. # [17:24] <Philip`> (which apparently can regrow limbs)
  423. # [17:24] <Philip`> (which I learned via the ever-informative blog at http://fuckyoupenguin.blogspot.com/2009/03/no.html )
  424. # [17:25] <Philip`> Dashiva: In that case, DELETE would be considered idempotent
  425. # [17:25] <Philip`> since deleting something twice has the same consequence as deleting it once
  426. # [17:26] <Philip`> so the term 'safe' seems better than 'idempotent'
  427. # [17:26] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's why I said safe :)
  428. # [17:28] <jgraham> Ah yes, head is safe + idempotent. Delete is jsut idempotent
  429. # [17:28] <Philip`> Of course it's not actually idempotent in an asynchronous environment
  430. # [17:29] * Philip` wonders if HTTP has a more subtle definition of 'idempotent'
  431. # [17:35] <Philip`> jgraham: (All my other code for working with the data is one-off bash commands, usually some combination of sort and uniq and perl, and I don't have them saved anywhere)
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  443. # [18:35] * gsnedders isn't entirely happy with his photos from the ball
  444. # [18:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: Photoshop
  445. # [18:40] <gsnedders> … is where I've spent far too much time trying to make them less shit :)
  446. # [18:41] <Philip`> (I suppose I could say "gsnedders: Gimp" to promote OS software, but that might be easy to misinterpret)
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  449. # [19:32] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/sets/72157617511428181/ — My best attempt.
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  455. # [19:49] <fearphage> any of you ever used XHR to send an element? what is the use case for that?
  456. # [19:49] <fearphage> just investigating
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  459. # [19:55] <Philip`> http://www.span-raps.com/English2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=3 - <time w:st="on" hour="13" minute="00"><u><span lang="EN-CA" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">1:00 PM</span></u></time><u><span lang="EN-CA" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">, Saturday, May 15<sup>th</sup>, 2004<p></p></span></u>
  460. # [19:55] <Philip`> Hmm, that's the only <time> element I see
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  464. # [20:23] <hsivonen> interesting accusation on Shelley's blog: "You know who really makes me mad? The browser companies. They want obfuscation. They want imprecision. They want gaps. They want things in a state of confusion, so they can do what they want, and not have to worry about "standards"."
  465. # [20:23] <Hixie> Philip` commented on that earlier
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  469. # [20:51] <virtuelv> hsivonen: oh, assume someone has a position, and attack that
  470. # [20:51] <virtuelv> let me look that up in the big book of fallacies
  471. # [20:53] <virtuelv> while I'm not involved in HTML5 as such, but other efforts, I can say that what we _don't_ want is imprecision
  472. # [20:53] <Hixie> yeah precision is somewhat the point :-)
  473. # [21:00] <gsnedders> Let's go back to HTML 4.01!
  474. # [21:00] <gsnedders> That's imprecise!
  475. # [21:01] <gsnedders> Wait, if we want imprecision, why are we revising it?
  476. # [21:03] <fearphage> can anyone help me with a use case/purpose for sending nodes/elements with XHR? or a place i could possibly find an answer for that
  477. # [21:04] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fb2aeed4f46bf534)
  478. # [21:22] <Hixie> i wonder what to do about accesskey=""
  479. # [21:31] <Hixie> webkit uses ctrl+option
  480. # [21:31] <Hixie> firefox uses ctrl
  481. # [21:31] <Hixie> (on mac)
  482. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Delete it!
  483. # [21:31] <Hixie> i never remember what opera's behaviour is
  484. # [21:31] <Hixie> something to do with the escape key?
  485. # [21:33] <Philip`> Shift+esc
  486. # [21:36] <Hixie> interesting
  487. # [21:36] <Hixie> just the menu, no direct shortcuts right?
  488. # [21:37] <krijnh> Jep
  489. # [21:37] <Hixie> interesting, Webkit, Firefox, and Opera all do nothing if the accesskey="" attribute is more than one character long
  490. # [21:38] <Hixie> only webkit supports accesskey=" "
  491. # [21:38] <Hixie> none of them strip leading spaces
  492. # [21:38] <Hixie> hmm
  493. # [21:39] <Hixie> this leaves us with some interesting options
  494. # [21:40] <Hixie> accesskey="" could be an enumerated attribute with values a..z, 0..9, and some keywords like "search", which could be bound to UA-specific standard bindings
  495. # [21:42] <krijnh> What's the benefit over using input type="search" for example?
  496. # [21:42] <Hixie> none really
  497. # [21:42] <Hixie> but we could have some generic keywords, like "f1" .. "f9", which map to a set of keys unique to each browser which are always available
  498. # [21:42] <Hixie> where "f1" is your most important site function
  499. # [21:43] <Hixie> though discoverability would be an issue
  500. # [21:43] <krijnh> Sounds confusing
  501. # [21:44] <jgraham> Hixie: I guess more than just a-z work on keyboards with more characters
  502. # [21:45] <jgraham> So that sounds bad
  503. # [21:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: 50mm f/1.8 It won't make you a better photographer but may be good for taking better portraits
  504. # [21:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: I've been more tempted by the 85mm
  505. # [21:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well assuming you are rich and always have rather a lot o space the 85mm is supposed to be very nice indeed
  506. # [21:47] <gsnedders> I mean the f/1.8 85mm, not the f/1.2
  507. # [21:47] <jgraham> But the 50mm is like 80 GBP or less secondhand
  508. # [21:47] <gsnedders> Though unsurprisingly I would quite like the f/1.2 :P
  509. # [21:48] <Hixie> almost every link on http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200601/accesskey_problems_remain_in_xhtml_2/ is now 404
  510. # [21:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Still 300+GBP
  511. # [21:48] <gsnedders> Hmm, I remember seeing it for less before. Oh well.
  512. # [21:48] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/accesskey-values.txt
  513. # [21:48] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  514. # [21:48] <Philip`> (Not very interesting)
  515. # [21:48] <jgraham> The fundamental problem with accesskey is that it is a solution for a UI issue that has not been designed by UI designers
  516. # [21:48] <Philip`> (but at least it shows most people use single-character accesskeys)
  517. # [21:49] <jgraham> This is A Bad Idea
  518. # [21:49] <krijnh> Philip`: do the links include titles or something?
  519. # [21:49] <Hixie> Philip`: i like accesskey="10"
  520. # [21:49] <Philip`> krijnh: Which links?
  521. # [21:49] <Hixie> wish i had a "10" key
  522. # [21:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: I have been thinking about getting the 50mm just as a stop-gap solution until I have money, but I do so little portrait photography anyway, and the bokeh on the Sigma 17–70mm is nicer IMO
  523. # [21:49] <krijnh> Philip`: on which the accesskey attributes are set
  524. # [21:50] <krijnh> Perhaps a combination of accesskey and title can be helpful
  525. # [21:50] <Philip`> krijnh: Don't know, and I don't have an easy way of extracting that data
  526. # [21:50] <krijnh> Ke
  527. # [21:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: What is the maximum apature on the sigma? And are you prepared to live wih the fact tha there is a high chance that your sigma lens will have qualiy conrol issues
  528. # [21:51] <jgraham> ?
  529. # [21:51] <jgraham> *aperture
  530. # [21:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: f/2.8-3.5 only, which does kinda suck.
  531. # [21:51] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/B2750F31-8ACF-4B46-8D02-44371AEE4C9F@apple.com seems sound
  532. # [21:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, it hasn't given me any problems yet
  533. # [21:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: The photos would be better if the lighting didn't make everybody look like corpses
  534. # [21:52] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  535. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Yeah, a lot of them are over-exposed. I've already rectified some of them.
  536. # [21:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, you already have it? Well I guess there's no point in discouraging you from buying it then
  537. # [21:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yes, I have it. That's what I took all those photos on.
  538. # [21:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: I got it to replace the 18–55mm kit lens, and it is certainly a lot better than that
  539. # [21:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: A lot of those would also benefit from some fill flash
  540. # [21:54] * jgraham would like the 24-105L to replace his kit lens bu it is a bit expensive
  541. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Indeed.
  542. # [21:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you don't already have en external flash, it is well, wel worth getting one
  543. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I have been seriously considering getting one…
  544. # [21:55] <jgraham> The Speedlite 430EX is perfectly fine
  545. # [21:55] <jgraham> As far as I can tell
  546. # [21:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I can't decide between an external flash and 70–300mm
  547. # [21:55] <jgraham> (well I would like lower power sometimes, although in principle it is always possible to arrange for that)
  548. # [21:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: What is your use case for the 70-300mm?
  549. # [21:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: Things in the distance? :P
  550. # [21:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: What things in particular?
  551. # [21:57] <jgraham> It makes rather a lot of difference
  552. # [21:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: More seriously, there's quite a few things I'd like to be able to photograph while out walking which I can't really get to (e.g., I'm on a mountain and they aren't)
  553. # [21:57] <jgraham> So landscapes?
  554. # [21:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: yes
  555. # [21:57] <gsnedders> (You think you can get a simple answer from me!? Peh!)
  556. # [21:58] <jgraham> Oh in that case the 70-300mm is probably a reasonable idea (although I haven't used the canon one for more than a few shots)
  557. # [21:58] <jgraham> But external flash opens up whole new worlds of possibility
  558. # [21:59] <jgraham> The problem with phoography is a) there are a lot of good things to buy b) They are all expensive and c) None of hem is an effecive substitute for actual talent
  559. # [22:00] * gsnedders lacks the talent part :P
  560. # [22:00] * jgraham too
  561. # [22:00] * gsnedders thinks jgraham is better than him
  562. # [22:01] <jgraham> Oh, and the money part :)
  563. # [22:01] <gsnedders> Yeah, I lack that too.
  564. # [22:01] <gsnedders> But I guess we both have too much we could buy :)
  565. # [22:02] * jgraham would also like the 100-400mm. Or maybe one of the long fixed focal length things.
  566. # [22:05] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
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  568. # [22:28] * inimino looks forward to a new era of "cool, oversexed, overscripted Ajax applications"
  569. # [22:39] * gsnedders would quite like a Lensbaby, and they're fairly cheap, so he may get one soon
  570. # [22:39] * gsnedders thought they were pointless and not overly fun until he got to play with Chris Wilson's at TPAC
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  586. # Session Close: Sun May 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)