/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [01:09] <othermaciej> I guess I should re-add this channel to my autojoin list
  9. # [01:11] <Hixie> so in #webkit othermaciej semi-accidentally suggested prop=""
  10. # [01:11] <Hixie> instead of property=""
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  12. # [01:11] <Hixie> and that made me think maybe prop="" or propname="" would be good
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  14. # [01:14] <Philip`> itemprop=""
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  16. # [01:14] <Hixie> oooh
  17. # [01:14] <Hixie> itemprop="" is good
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  22. # [01:20] <Philip`> Hixie: The RDF output has no way of identifying what's an item - you just get a load of blank nodes, some of which aren't used as objects in any triple and therefore can be assumed to be top-level items, which is quite indirect
  23. # [01:20] <Hixie> should we rename element.properties also if we use itemprop="" and element.itemprop?
  24. # [01:20] <Philip`> so maybe it'd be good to generate a triple like '<> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/something#top-level-item> _:n' for each top-level item _:n, so that the relationship between items and pages is explicit (and so e.g. it's easy to iterate over them all)
  25. # [01:21] <othermaciej> renaming element.properties to element.itemprops or element.itemProperties would be weird
  26. # [01:21] <othermaciej> because in that case, the element presumably is the item, and it's redundant to ask for the item's item properties
  27. # [01:21] <Hixie> ok
  28. # [01:22] <othermaciej> I was going to say "what other kind would it have?" but it would indeed have CSS properties
  29. # [01:22] <othermaciej> still, I don't think "item properties" vs "CSS properties" is a good distinction, so if disambiguation is needed, I'd say "data properties"
  30. # [01:22] <othermaciej> or something like that
  31. # [01:23] <othermaciej> but that could be confused with the data- attribute mechanism
  32. # [01:23] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@206.108.169.82)
  33. # [01:24] <Hixie> well i just renamed property to itemprop
  34. # [01:25] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  35. # [01:27] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, that's not a bad idea...
  36. # [01:27] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with itemprop
  37. # [01:28] <Hixie> that was quick
  38. # [01:28] <Hixie> you guys rock
  39. # [01:29] <Philip`> "guys"? I'm only one person :-p
  40. # [01:29] <Hixie> you and james :-)
  41. # [01:29] * Philip` is happy to take all of the credit anyway
  42. # [01:29] <Hixie> you are especially awesome, if that helps :-)
  43. # [01:32] <Hixie> Philip`: added an ...#item triple
  44. # [01:32] <Hixie> let me know what you think
  45. # [01:32] <Hixie> if you like it as is i'll commit it
  46. # [01:32] <Hixie> otherwise let me know if you'd prefer a different name
  47. # [01:33] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  48. # [01:33] <Philip`> I don't like how my code has a line saying "value = value.value;"
  49. # [01:33] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-1-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  50. # [01:33] <Hixie> hah
  51. # [01:33] <inimino> Hixie: s/ancestors/descendants/ in "Properties don't have to be given as ancestors of the element with the item attribute."
  52. # [01:33] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  53. # [01:34] <Hixie> inimino: thanks, fixing
  54. # [01:34] <Philip`> Hixie: Is the ...#item thing visible in a place which does not require me downloading megabytes of spec?
  55. # [01:34] <Philip`> (since my current internet connection costs 1.5 pence per megabyte, and I don't want to just throw money away)
  56. # [01:35] <Hixie> i just added the following as step two in the "generate the triples for an item" algorithm:
  57. # [01:35] <Hixie> Generate the following triple:
  58. # [01:35] <Hixie> subject the document's current address predicate http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#item object subject
  59. # [01:35] <Hixie> with some more newlines
  60. # [01:35] <Philip`> That doesn't distinguish top-level items
  61. # [01:36] <Hixie> oh true
  62. # [01:36] <Hixie> oops
  63. # [01:36] <Philip`> Maybe it'd fit better in the place that currently says "(Nothing is done with the returned subject.)"
  64. # [01:36] <Hixie> yeah i'm putting it as a subalgorithm there
  65. # [01:36] <Hixie> is #item ok?
  66. # [01:37] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@206.108.169.82)
  67. # [01:37] <Philip`> I don't know if conflicting with <meta name=item> is fine
  68. # [01:38] <Hixie> and rel=item
  69. # [01:38] <Hixie> and explicit propitem=""s with that value
  70. # [01:38] <Hixie> i think it's fine, because it doesn't require implementations to do anything (like the rel thing implied it did)
  71. # [01:39] <Hixie> it's up to the author not to make spurious statements
  72. # [01:39] <Hixie> they could just as easily throw in spurious ones in to the triple store later
  73. # [01:40] <Philip`> I also don't know whether it's sensible to use that vocabulary space
  74. # [01:40] <Philip`> (Maybe it is; I've got no idea)
  75. # [01:40] <Hixie> no idea either
  76. # [01:41] <Hixie> inimino: fixed
  77. # [01:41] <Hixie> Philip`: ok, checking it in
  78. # [01:43] <Hixie> http://groups.google.com/group/thosch/browse_thread/thread/3aa1dc61c148c145/edfeb6432267af37
  79. # [01:44] <Hixie> i've no idea what that last paragraph means, but it's good for us...
  80. # [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: s/descendents/descendants/
  81. # [01:45] <Hixie> man between that and "occurrence" (which i reliably spell "occurance") i really can't spell
  82. # [01:45] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with "<> xhv:item _:n0 ." etc
  83. # [01:47] <Philip`> (I really to output proper N3 blank-node syntax when possible...)
  84. # [01:47] <Philip`> *need
  85. # [01:49] <Philip`> Hixie: Are you aware that computers nowadays are capable of looking up words in dictionaries and automatically highlighting when you get it wrong?
  86. # [01:49] <Hixie> my dictionary says "descendents" is right
  87. # [01:49] <Hixie> and i don't bother with spell checking the spec because about 40% of the words are made up anyway
  88. # [01:51] <Philip`> http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861603981/descendant.html - "Descendant is the only spelling of the noun, denoting somebody or something related to an ancestor, or something based on an earlier thing. Descendent is the usual spelling of the adjective, which means "going downward.""
  89. # [01:52] <Hixie> i didn't say my dictionary was right
  90. # [01:52] <Philip`> It's right that the word exists
  91. # [01:53] <Hixie> with an s on the end?
  92. # [01:54] <Philip`> Easy way to remember the spelling of the noun: Imagine a person whose children and grandchildren are all ants
  93. # [01:54] <Philip`> and they are his descendants
  94. # [01:55] <Philip`> Just be careful not to imagine a person whose children and grandchildren are talking trees, because that'll give entirely the wrong idea
  95. # [01:55] <Hixie> i know it has an a, the problem is i have motor memory now
  96. # [01:55] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-135-6.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  97. # [01:56] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose a group of things which are descendent could be called descendents
  98. # [01:56] <inimino> Hixie: thanks
  99. # [01:56] * Philip` decides to resolve the issue by going to bed
  100. # [01:56] <Hixie> nn
  101. # [01:57] <Philip`> jgraham: (By the way, your software is very legacy now)
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  106. # [02:11] <iand> Hixie: if you're looking for implementation feedback on microdata, I have marked up a version of my homepage at http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/
  107. # [02:12] <iand> it's based on my existing page http://iandavis.com/blog/about which uses eRDF
  108. # [02:13] <iand> I used property attribute, not itemprop, so I could test with http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html
  109. # [02:13] <Philip`> That thing now only accepts itemprop, not property
  110. # [02:14] <iand> Philip`: heh, I can't keep up
  111. # [02:14] <iand> hang on
  112. # [02:14] <iand> ok, just updating
  113. # [02:14] <iand> there's one thing I can't get to work satisfactorily
  114. # [02:15] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@17.203.15.172)
  115. # [02:15] <iand> I want to say <http://iandavis.com/id/me> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog> <http://iandavis.com/blog>
  116. # [02:15] <iand> and <http://iandavis.com/blog> <http://purl.org/dc/terms/title> "Internet Alchemy" .
  117. # [02:15] <Hixie> iand: cool, looking...
  118. # [02:16] <iand> but I can't get that, currently I have a blank node instead of the blog url
  119. # [02:16] <Hixie> (btw i based this microdata thing in part on the ideas in eRDF, it was useful)
  120. # [02:16] <iand> Hixie: thanks
  121. # [02:16] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.99.185) (Remote closed the connection)
  122. # [02:17] <iand> if I remove the item attibute then I get the triple <http://iandavis.com/id/me> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog> <http://iandavis.com/blog>
  123. # [02:17] <Hixie> christ man, that page is going to be like the most microdata-irific page of the year
  124. # [02:17] <iand> but the title of the blog is then attatched to <http://iandavis.com/id/me>
  125. # [02:17] <iand> Hixie: it was a fairly easy conversion from erdf
  126. # [02:17] <Hixie> cool
  127. # [02:17] <Hixie> ok let's see
  128. # [02:18] <Hixie> your first triple you can do using the under-documented "about" magic word:
  129. # [02:19] <Hixie> <span item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/id/me"><link itemprop="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog" href="http://iandavis.com/blog"></span>
  130. # [02:19] <Hixie> (gonna add more about "about" later today or tomorrow)
  131. # [02:19] <Hixie> oh to do both of those you'd do:
  132. # [02:19] <iand> yeah I think I get about, but I don't seem to be able to nest it
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  134. # [02:19] <iand> not sure if that was just a limitation of the demo implementation
  135. # [02:20] <Philip`> I'm not aware of any significant ways the demo implementation diverges from the spec
  136. # [02:20] <Hixie> <div item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/id/me"><div itemprop="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/weblog" item><link itemprop="about" href="http://iandavis.com/blog"><meta itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title" content="Internet Alchemy"></div></div>
  137. # [02:20] <Hixie> that should do it
  138. # [02:20] <Hixie> unless i typoed something
  139. # [02:21] <iand> ah, using meta
  140. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: two bugs in your impl with that ode
  141. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: you don't seem to support <meta>
  142. # [02:23] <Hixie> Philip`: and you don't remove the c:abouts
  143. # [02:23] <Hixie> oh that's a bug in the spec
  144. # [02:23] <Hixie> oops
  145. # [02:23] <Philip`> Works for me
  146. # [02:23] <Philip`> in Firefox 3.0
  147. # [02:23] <Hixie> oh could be a safari bug
  148. # [02:23] <Hixie> makes sense
  149. # [02:24] <Philip`> and Opera 10.0
  150. # [02:24] <Philip`> I haven't tested in Safari
  151. # [02:24] <iand> Hixie: with the solution above the title of the blog is embedded in content attribute - any way to make that work with it as visible text, i.e. for compatibility with html4 browsers?
  152. # [02:24] <Philip`> jQuery causes various browser-compatibility problems
  153. # [02:25] <Hixie> iand: sure, you <span itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title">Internet Alchemy</span> instead of the <meta>
  154. # [02:25] <Hixie> s/you/use/
  155. # [02:25] <iand> ok
  156. # [02:25] * Philip` should replace it with pure DOM code when possible
  157. # [02:25] * iand hacks a bit
  158. # [02:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Nobody ever told me to remove c:about :-)
  159. # [02:26] <Hixie> yeah adding that now
  160. # [02:28] <Philip`> Assuming you're not adding something crazy, the demo implementation does it now
  161. # [02:28] <Hixie> spec has it now too
  162. # [02:28] <Hixie> just added "If name is equal to the string "about", skip this name"
  163. # [02:28] <Hixie> to "For each name name in element's property names, run the following substeps:"
  164. # [02:28] <Hixie> as substep 1
  165. # [02:29] <Philip`> Ah, good, that's not crazy
  166. # [02:32] <iand> aha http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/ gives the triples I want now
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  168. # [02:32] <iand> source is URI crazy of course
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  172. # [02:38] <iand> thanks Philip` for the microdata demo - it was very helpful
  173. # [02:41] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@202.171.174.4)
  174. # [02:41] <Hixie> iand: what's your opinion overall?
  175. # [02:42] <Hixie> (of the microdata idea)
  176. # [02:42] <iand> ignoring any conflict with rdfa etc, this would meet my needs
  177. # [02:42] <iand> I'd like an abbreviation mechanism, but I can live without it
  178. # [02:43] <iand> there seems to be no treatment of language?
  179. # [02:43] <iand> and datatypes are limited to the html5 ones
  180. # [02:43] <iand> but for me personally, datatypes were never strong goal in the design of erdf either
  181. # [02:43] <Philip`> I think the only datatypes are string and URL
  182. # [02:44] <Philip`> or at least that's how I've implemented it
  183. # [02:44] <iand> datetime as well
  184. # [02:44] <Philip`> That's a string, according to my code :-)
  185. # [02:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  186. # [02:44] <iand> :)
  187. # [02:44] * Philip` wonders if he should handle it differently
  188. # [02:45] <Hixie> yeah, there's no real typing per se
  189. # [02:45] <iand> the JSON output doesn't distinguish between a URI in href/src and a URI in content - in RDF it makes a difference (i.e. literal vs resource)
  190. # [02:45] <Hixie> none of the use cases listed really needed it
  191. # [02:45] <iand> not sure if it's important for the JSON
  192. # [02:46] <Hixie> i wish i could find an abbreviation mechanism that didn't involve prefixes
  193. # [02:46] <iand> I guess a big area that is missing for RDFa folks will be XMLLiterals, i.e. values of triples that contain markup
  194. # [02:46] <Hixie> i looked at xml literals, but the use cases again didn't really need it, so i punted on it
  195. # [02:46] <othermaciej> if the tag representing an item property contains markup and not just text, is it flattened to text?
  196. # [02:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
  197. # [02:47] <Hixie> (the goal is very much not to map rdf to html, but to solve specific problems that were raised)
  198. # [02:47] <othermaciej> sure, I don't dispute that goal
  199. # [02:47] <iand> Hixie: yes, I get that
  200. # [02:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: the parenthetical was to iand, not you, sorry :-)
  201. # [02:47] <othermaciej> I don't think being able to represent every feature of RDF is essential
  202. # [02:47] <othermaciej> ok
  203. # [02:48] <othermaciej> anyway, I think being able to map *from* microdata *to* RDF is the important direction
  204. # [02:48] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@202.171.174.4) ("Leaving")
  205. # [02:48] <iand> Hixie: did you look at the erdf usage of <link rel="schema.foaf" href="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/" /> for abbreviation
  206. # [02:48] <iand> I borrowed it from dublin core conventions
  207. # [02:49] <Hixie> yeah, but it's still a prefix
  208. # [02:49] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@202.171.174.4)
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  210. # [02:49] <Philip`> You could use suffixes instead
  211. # [02:49] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@202.171.174.4)
  212. # [02:49] <Hixie> the problem is with separating the identifier into two parts
  213. # [02:49] <iand> could you allow some sort of mapping of URIs to shortnames to be declared in the document?
  214. # [02:50] <Hixie> whether that's prefixes, or an import mechanism, the problem still exists
  215. # [02:50] <Hixie> i think long term the real solution will be the use of shorter vocab terms like com.example.foo and the use of predefined vocabs
  216. # [02:50] <Hixie> which use short names
  217. # [02:50] <iand> i.e. some way to declare that itemprop="name" maps to http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name
  218. # [02:51] <Hixie> well for certain terms we can predefine them
  219. # [02:51] <Hixie> but in general import mechanisms have many of the same problems as prefixes
  220. # [02:52] <Hixie> maybe i should register term.md or some such, and let people register terms there on a first-come-first-served basis
  221. # [02:52] <Hixie> md.term.foo
  222. # [02:53] <iand> problem is that there are millions of possible predicates...
  223. # [02:54] <Philip`> Say that any name that doesn't contain a '.' should have the string "http://tinyurl.com/" prepended and then be treated as a URL
  224. # [02:54] <Hixie> heh
  225. # [02:54] <Hixie> that's basically what we do now but with the w3.org prefix
  226. # [02:54] <Philip`> since they've already got the unique-identifier-to-URL mapping database set up
  227. # [02:55] <Philip`> so you still get the benefits of resolvable identifiers
  228. # [02:55] <Hixie> term.md is $150
  229. # [02:55] <Hixie> that seems excessive
  230. # [02:55] <Philip`> The thing with the w3.org prefix has no mechanism for avoiding conflicts, whereas TinyURL guarantees a unique mapping
  231. # [02:56] <Hixie> well that's the same as getting a domain where people can register domains
  232. # [02:56] <Hixie> er
  233. # [02:56] <Hixie> terms
  234. # [02:56] <Philip`> Hixie: You could use that domain's name without bothering to register it
  235. # [02:57] <iand> I don't think RDF people will get much value out of the reverse dns shortening, com.xmlns.foaf.0.1.name isn't a lot different to http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name
  236. # [02:57] <iand> so I woudnt do anything special for them
  237. # [02:57] <iand> er them includes me
  238. # [02:58] <Philip`> I don't fancy using identifiers like uk.ac.cam.cl.www.pjt47.desc
  239. # [02:58] <iand> as I said, the microdata spec works for me, barring a few wrinkles like languages
  240. # [02:58] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  241. # [02:59] <Philip`> (partly since it's awfully ugly, partly since it won't be applicable for the rest of eternity)
  242. # [02:59] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  243. # [03:00] <Hixie> iand: what's the languages wrinkle?
  244. # [03:00] <Philip`> (but I don't have any other domain names that are likely to be relevant for eternity (or the next decade, which is basically eternity) either)
  245. # [03:00] <Dashiva> Philip`: Isn't that problem the same whether you use URLs or rewerse domains?
  246. # [03:00] <iand> Hixie: I'd like to say the title of my blog is in french
  247. # [03:00] <iand> I tried adding a lang attribute on the span but it was ignored
  248. # [03:01] <iand> it should really create a literal object with that language
  249. # [03:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: Yes, so reverse domains don't provide any benefit but they're a bit harder to write (I have to think very carefully to avoid writing ac.uk.cam or uk.cam.ac etc)
  250. # [03:01] <iand> <span itemprop="http://purl.org/dc/terms/title" lang="fr">Internet Alchemy</span>
  251. # [03:01] <iand> should give
  252. # [03:02] <iand> _:x <http://purl.org/dc/terms/title> "Internet Alchemy"@fr
  253. # [03:02] <iand> I have no idea if that's idiomatic for html5
  254. # [03:02] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  255. # [03:02] * Philip` goes to bed before someone causes him to implement that language feature
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  257. # [03:02] <Hixie> Philip`: hah
  258. # [03:02] <Hixie> Philip`: nn (again)
  259. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: what's the magical phrase i should use to require that? Right now I say to "generate a triple" with a subject, predicate, object
  260. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: do i just add "language" as one of the fields that the "triple" has?
  261. # [03:03] <Hixie> iand: (how does rdfa do it?)
  262. # [03:04] <Hixie> "if there is a value for [current language] then the value of the [plain literal] should include this language information"
  263. # [03:04] <Hixie> hm
  264. # [03:04] <Hixie> i can do that
  265. # [03:04] <Hixie> oh hey, a typed literal can't have a language?
  266. # [03:05] <iand> no
  267. # [03:05] <iand> they're exclusive
  268. # [03:05] <iand> "A plain literal is a string combined with an optional language tag"
  269. # [03:05] <iand> "A typed literal is a string combined with a datatype URI."
  270. # [03:05] * Hixie tries to work out the difference between a url and a literal of some kind
  271. # [03:06] <iand> what do you need to know?
  272. # [03:07] <iand> when you generate a triple, the object is a URI ref if it has come from href/src attributes and a literal otherwise
  273. # [03:08] <iand> the literal may have a datatype of xsd:datetime if the datetime attribute is present
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  275. # [03:08] <iand> otherwise it will be a plain literal with a language tag taken from the value of the enclosing lang attribute if any
  276. # [03:09] <Dashiva> Philip`: They have the benefit of not being URLs, and you save the http:// part too.
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  278. # [03:15] <iand> ok, I'm off now- sleep calls
  279. # [03:15] <Hixie> nn
  280. # [03:15] <Hixie> and thanks for the help
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  282. # [03:16] <Hixie> iand: ok, included language information
  283. # [03:16] <Hixie> i didn't do <time> because that would be much more complex than is reasonable
  284. # [03:17] <Hixie> (we'd have to check if it had a time, a date, a timezone, acting differently in each case; we'd have to reserialise, we'd have to handle invalid input cases, etc)
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  294. # [04:03] <tantek> Hixie, what methodology are you using to choose new attribute names? (e.g. "property" vs. "prop" vs. "itemprop")
  295. # [04:04] <tantek> (and while you're at it, why not consider "iprop"? it's shorter, has that catchy "i-" start etc. you could even then rename your use of "typeof" to "itype" for some indication of it being related. or even "iroot" 1/2 ;)
  296. # [04:06] <othermaciej> iprop sounds pithy
  297. # [04:08] <Dashiva> "Spec things first, bikeshed later"
  298. # [04:19] <tantek> Dashiva - hence it helps to have a methodology (or at least principles to follow) for such things (like picking names) to avoid religious/bikeshed arguments.
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  311. # [04:47] <Dashiva> tantek: You could also say that bikeshedding is probably going to happen anyway, for a feature like this.
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  316. # [04:54] <tantek> Dashiva, indeed it is difficult to "avoid" 100% per se, one can only hope to reduce and perhaps somewhat minimize, especially over time.
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  319. # [04:58] <Dashiva> Hmm, I suppose the design principles have worked like that. There are some arguments still, but they don't seem to last long.
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  322. # [05:18] <Hixie> tantek: i use the "try to make things clear yet functional" methodology
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  427. # [09:09] <Hixie> does anyone understand the proposal in http://www.w3.org/mid/9b3b213a0905111517o19503e0lea499ddd0547467@mail.gmail.com ?
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  429. # [09:13] <othermaciej> O_O
  430. # [09:13] <othermaciej> o_O
  431. # [09:14] <othermaciej> O_o
  432. # [09:15] <Hixie> that was my response
  433. # [09:15] <Hixie> glad it's not just me
  434. # [09:15] <jgraham> <aol>me too</aol>
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  440. # [09:42] <krijnh> http://twitter.com/sandervdv/status/1765852544 - Hixie: you're not coming to Amsterdam? :)
  441. # [09:42] <Hixie> trying not to travel at all this year, so that i can get html5 done
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  443. # [09:43] <Hixie> (i did eventually reply to sandervdv after i saw his twitter -- turns out his e-mail had looked too much like spam)
  444. # [09:43] <Hixie> (and i'd ignored it)
  445. # [09:46] <krijnh> Jammer :)
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  448. # [09:57] <Philip`> Hixie: The new language thing shouldn't apply to 'object', but that's left out of the list
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  451. # [09:59] <Hixie> really? i distinctly remember including <object>
  452. # [09:59] <Hixie> it's there
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  454. # [09:59] <Hixie> between link and source
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  456. # [10:00] <Philip`> Um...
  457. # [10:00] <Philip`> Good point
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  459. # [10:01] <Philip`> Demo now does languages (with very simplified processing of lang attributes)
  460. # [10:01] <Hixie> is the processign hard?
  461. # [10:03] <Philip`> It would be harder if I cared about restricting it to HTML elements, or about handling xml:lang or Content-Language
  462. # [10:03] <Philip`> unless I'm missing something that makes it trivial
  463. # [10:03] <Hixie> ah ok
  464. # [10:03] <Hixie> unfortunately i don't think we expose the language magic to the dom yet
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  470. # [10:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: you should coallesce any parse errors generated by an end tag having attributes into one error
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  476. # [10:40] <Philip`> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/05/the-bold-and-the-beautiful-two.html
  477. # [10:44] <Philip`> ("Two new drafts out at W3C from the HTML 5 effort: HTML 5: The Markup Language (hat-tip Micah) and HTML 5: A vocabulary and associated APIs for HTML and XHTML ... The first one is a model of the kinds of standards-writing we need ...")
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  480. # [10:49] * Hixie comments
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  482. # [10:51] <Philip`> It's rare for me to find a blog post about HTML5 that you haven't already commented on
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  484. # [10:52] <Hixie> heh
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  491. # [11:07] <othermaciej> it "make simple objective statements that can be trivially implemented" eh?
  492. # [11:11] <Hixie> he means implemented in a schema
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  494. # [11:11] <Hixie> for a lot of people, that's the only meaning of implementation they use
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  499. # [11:13] * Philip` wonders if many people are just allergic to writing code
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  508. # [11:38] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements - now with itemprop
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  510. # [11:45] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you could place the <title> in the textarea to make the demo work correctly
  511. # [11:47] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Wouldn't that make the page invalid?
  512. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yes but it would make the demo work correctly
  513. # [11:48] <Philip`> Also, <title> is really boring so I can't imagine many people care about testing it much :-)
  514. # [11:48] * zcorpan_ tested it
  515. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> Philip`: if you care about validation you can move elements around with script
  516. # [11:49] <Philip`> That would be a disgusting hack :-p
  517. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> isn't the whole thing a hack anyway?
  518. # [11:50] * maik|meeting is now known as maikmerten
  519. # [11:51] <Philip`> Yes, but not a disgusting hack
  520. # [11:55] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Changed it now so the <title> is in the textarea
  521. # [11:55] <Philip`> (which makes Firefox not use it as the title for the page)
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  526. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> Philip`: file a bug :)
  527. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> "s2.2 I don't see what the need for gratuitously departing from SGML and XML is, allowing <!doctype html> rather than <!DOCTYPE html>." - isn't sgml case insensitive there?
  528. # [12:16] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I find it hard to care sufficiently to file a bug :-(
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  530. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you could bug hsivonen to fix it while he's touching all other code related to the parser in some way
  531. # [12:18] <zcorpan_> Philip`: (i think there is magic glue between the parser and document.title in gecko)
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  535. # [12:27] <Philip`> Is Opera Turbo meant to actually work?
  536. # [12:27] <Philip`> As far as I can see, it only works when I've got it switched off and am on a fast connection
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  538. # [12:29] <virtuelv> young van kesteren's new name is apparently "Ann": http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/02/ecs_moving_from_wellformed_xml.html
  539. # [12:30] <virtuelv> Philip`: yes, it's supposed to work (and as far as I've been able to determine, it does, but it's still in alpha)
  540. # [12:31] <virtuelv> (And, even from Opera's rather fat pipes here, I'm seeing significant speedups on a site like http://db.no/
  541. # [12:31] <virtuelv> )
  542. # [12:31] <Philip`> virtuelv: I can tell when it's active because all the images turn into ugly JPEGs :-)
  543. # [12:33] <Philip`> It seems to be working now (when I'm on a wireless LAN), but I don't think I've been able to get it to do anything at all when I'm on a dialup (mobile broadband) connection
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  546. # [12:33] * Philip` will have to experiment more
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  550. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> ECS doesn't seem to support the kind of markup people use on the web - nested divs
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  552. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> it also doesn't whine when you make this mistake: <p>Foo <code>bar<code> baz.</p>
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  560. # [13:28] <Hixie> hsivonen is going to hate me
  561. # [13:28] <Hixie> my next checkin introduces only about a bazillion conformance criteria
  562. # [13:28] <Hixie> (wip at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#md-vcard)
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  565. # [13:29] <Hixie> ok i'll continue this tomorrow
  566. # [13:29] <Hixie> nn
  567. # [13:32] <Philip`> hsivonen should like having bazillions of conformance criteria - it significantly raises the barriers to entry for competing conformance checkers, thus ensuring he retains market dominance
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  569. # [13:35] * Philip` hopes predefined vocabularies will be moved out of the main spec document
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  585. # [15:22] <hsivonen> Hmm. Why does N-Triples force everything to be ASCII instead of being UTF-8?
  586. # [15:22] <hsivonen> it seems annoying to have to escape all non-ASCII
  587. # [15:23] <Philip`> Does anyone use N-Triples?
  588. # [15:24] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3 says "N3 files are encoded in UTF-8 (See RFC2279), in normalized in Normalization Form C."
  589. # [15:24] <Philip`> http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/ says "A Turtle document is a Unicode[UNICODE] character string encoded in UTF-8. Unicode codepoints only in the range U+0 to U+10FFFF inclusive are allowed."
  590. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I don't know, but escape for the requirement to escape non-ASCII, N-Triples seems like it's the cleanest format for expressing RDF
  591. # [15:25] <hsivonen> I wonder how one could produce a Unicode codepoint that isn't in that range
  592. # [15:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably using some higher version of the unicode standard that allows more codepoints
  593. # [15:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
  594. # [15:28] <hsivonen> I was thinking of implementing the microdata RDF conversion by having Java model classes for microdata and making them expose Jena RDF interfaces, but the Jena RDF interfaces have way too much stuff to implement
  595. # [15:28] * Philip` wonders how you represent literals' languages in N-Triples
  596. # [15:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: langString ::= '"' string '"' ( '@' language )?
  597. # [15:30] <Philip`> Oh, right, I was looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/
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  600. # [15:36] <Philip`> Hmm, if I click a fragment link in a page then the subjects of all the triples change
  601. # [15:36] <Philip`> (because they're set to the document's current address)
  602. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Also, it seems that an absolute URL is always ASCII per spec
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  604. # [15:44] <hsivonen> so it seems IRIs that aren't also URIs can't be used as property names
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  608. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it could if they are ASCIIfied in the RDF output algorithm
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  611. # [15:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but RDF allows IRI-ish property names, right?
  612. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: dunno, i thought you were referring to the RDF spec
  613. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I was referring to HTML5 microdata
  614. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: HTML5 defines 'absolute URL' via resolving the URL
  615. # [15:51] <zcorpan_> ok
  616. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: and resolving seems to URIfy
  617. # [15:52] <zcorpan_> does RDF make a difference between property names that use percent escaping and those that don't?
  618. # [15:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: my understanding is that they are different
  619. # [15:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: but I'm not an RDF expert
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  621. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: IIRC, they are like XML namespaces: compared as strings
  622. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: btw, the n3 syntax allows \UHHHHHHHH escapes for unicode code points
  623. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  624. # [15:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes, but it's human-unfriendly if the text is mostly non-ASCII
  625. # [15:55] <hsivonen> (assuming a text editor--not a dedicated RDF editor)
  626. # [15:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it was more re how to use characters above U+10FFFF
  627. # [15:55] <hsivonen> oh
  628. # [15:55] <hsivonen> but those aren't Unicode code points by definition :-)
  629. # [15:56] <zcorpan_> true
  630. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> still seems weird that it has eight instead of six "H"es
  631. # [15:57] <Philip`> It's just copying Python
  632. # [15:58] * zcorpan_ didn't know python had the same weirdness
  633. # [16:00] <Philip`> I might be wrong
  634. # [16:01] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe I'm not; \Uxxxxxxxx works in Python 2.5
  635. # [16:02] * Philip` can't find when it was introduced
  636. # [16:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: my photostream on Flickr and set views are examples of pages that have multiple media items with different licenses
  637. # [16:04] <hsivonen> (my photos are either ARR or CC-by on a case-by-case basis)
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  644. # [16:20] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html - now with fancier and more readable (and hopefully syntactically valid and representing the correct triples) N3 output
  645. # [16:20] <hsivonen> I wonder what charter this artifact is being produced and published under: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/html4-rdfa-1.dtd
  646. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there a way to feed content to your script using <textarea>?
  647. # [16:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: Uh... Copy-and-paste?
  648. # [16:23] <Philip`> Maybe I'm not sure what you mean
  649. # [16:23] <hsivonen> ooh. I see the textarea now
  650. # [16:23] <jgraham> Philip`: Your UI is not that obvious :)
  651. # [16:23] <hsivonen> the layout of the page is so cluttered that I missed it
  652. # [16:23] <Philip`> jgraham: Very true :-)
  653. # [16:23] <jgraham> Philip`: Especially in Firefox where the json doesn't wrap
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  655. # [16:24] <Philip`> Suggestions and/or implementations of improved UIs would be welcome
  656. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would help if the JSON output didn't overlap the input
  657. # [16:26] <Philip`> It doesn't, when I look at it in Firefox 3.0
  658. # [16:26] <Philip`> Is your screen 320 pixels wide?
  659. # [16:26] <hsivonen> 1650 px wide window
  660. # [16:27] <Philip`> How is the JSON wide enough to reach the input box? It should only be a few dozen characters wide...
  661. # [16:27] <hsivonen> layout code checked out of trunk a bit over a week ago
  662. # [16:28] <jgraham> Philip`: I guess the JSON in firefox 3.5 no longer has line breaks
  663. # [16:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's all on one line
  664. # [16:28] <Philip`> Oh
  665. # [16:28] <Philip`> That's not good
  666. # [16:28] <Philip`> Does it have a native implementation of window.JSON that differs from the scripted one?
  667. # [16:29] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes
  668. # [16:29] <Philip`> That's not good
  669. # [16:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes it is. Just not in this case
  670. # [16:31] <Philip`> So much for "don't break the web"
  671. # [16:31] * Philip` is just using the standard JSON2.js
  672. # [16:32] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like ES3.1 specifies something that does support indentation
  673. # [16:32] <Philip`> Maybe FF3.5 just hasn't implemented it?
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  675. # [16:33] <Philip`> Uploaded a new version that uses the non-native JSON implementation
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  678. # [16:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  679. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: your impl doesn't deal with <time> elements that have the datetime in element content
  680. # [16:39] <Philip`> "If the element is a time element with a datetime attribute: The value is the value of the element's datetime attribute."
  681. # [16:39] <Philip`> I think I'm doing what the spec says
  682. # [16:40] <hsivonen> oh.
  683. # [16:40] <Philip`> Maybe I'm not
  684. # [16:40] <Philip`> since I forgot the "with a datetime attribute" bit
  685. # [16:42] <Philip`> hsivonen: Fixed
  686. # [16:42] <hsivonen> thanks
  687. # [16:43] <Philip`> This N3 output is actually surprisingly readable now
  688. # [16:43] <Philip`> particularly for input like http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/
  689. # [16:45] <jgraham> Philip`: You have rather low standards for what is readable :)
  690. # [16:48] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm comparing it to the old non-nested version that was full of explicit blank nodes and a seemingly random ordering of triples, and I think it's a significant step up from that :-)
  691. # [16:53] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh well I aagree that it may not be the most unreadable syntax it is possible to imagine
  692. # [16:53] <jgraham> But the whole concept of using URIs to identify things other than webpages torpedos readability from the start
  693. # [16:55] * Philip` can't easily imagine a syntax that would be much more readable, expressing the same data
  694. # [16:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Assuming the same underlying concepts, macro expansions would make it more readable like def:ian davis=><http://iandavis.com/id/me>
  695. # [16:58] <jgraham> Ian Davis a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person>
  696. # [16:58] <jgraham> (obviously you would need more syntax somehow to distinguish macros from other things)
  697. # [16:59] <jgraham> Like ref:(Ian Davis) a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person>
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  699. # [17:00] <jgraham> (and this would be bad for other reasons like copy and paste)
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  705. # [17:10] <Philip`> jgraham: That should be rdf:type rather than a, based on the current implementation :-)
  706. # [17:10] * Philip` wonders why they didn't use a keyword like "isa" so that it would actually make some intuitive sense
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  708. # [17:11] * Philip` wonders if jgraham is looking at an old version of the output...
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  710. # [17:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh, I see. The page had the old output at the bottom, so I was looking at that instead of the new output further down the page
  711. # [17:13] <jgraham> s/The page/The page with the embedded microdata/
  712. # [17:14] <jgraham> I guess the new version is a bit more readable
  713. # [17:14] <Philip`> Ah
  714. # [17:16] <Philip`> Evidence suggests my UI is rubbish :-(
  715. # [17:16] <Philip`> which is not too surprising since my entire UI design basically consists of style="width: 50%; float: right"
  716. # [17:17] <hsivonen> I wonder if the current microdata spec is too loose when it comes to ensuring that microdata can be mapped to RDF/XML
  717. # [17:17] <hsivonen> specifically, I don't see requirements of certain strings being limited to NCNames
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  719. # [17:24] <Philip`> hsivonen: What strings need to be limited to that?
  720. # [17:25] * Philip` thought everything could just be expressed as an unabbreviated URI in an attribute value
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  723. # [17:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh. I thought properties needed to become qnames in RDF/XML
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  725. # [17:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe they do; I know nothing about RDF
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  730. # [17:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Even if that's the case, I don't see why it ought to be restricted to the subset that's mappable to RDF/XML)
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  732. # [17:32] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Presumably RDF people don't like being restricted to that subset, since N3 and Turtle are intentionally and explicitly more expressive than RDF/XML)
  733. # [17:32] <hsivonen> ah, OK
  734. # [17:33] <hsivonen> I find that surprising
  735. # [17:34] <Philip`> (http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/ - "The recommended XML syntax for RDF, RDF/XML ([RDF-XML]) has certain restrictions imposed by XML and the use of XML Namespaces that prevent it encoding all RDF graphs (some predicate URIs are forbidden and XML 1.0 forbids encoding some Unicode codepoints). These restrictions do not apply to Turtle.")
  736. # [17:34] <Philip`> (which makes it sound like it's a feature of Turtle rather than a bug or a hazard)
  737. # [17:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: it might be a good idea to note that the RDF graphs produces by the algorithm may not be serializable as RDF/XML
  738. # [17:36] <Philip`> They might not be serialisable as N3/Turtle either
  739. # [17:36] <Philip`> e.g. if you have lang="foo bar"
  740. # [17:37] <Philip`> or if you have itemprop=">"
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  742. # [17:42] * Philip` wonders why so much time has been spent discussing the RDF extraction of microdata, and very little about the JSON
  743. # [17:44] <hsivonen> I wonder what "html:abbr" is about in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/components/microformats/src/Microformats.js#345
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  745. # [17:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.codingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-49227.html ?
  746. # [17:51] <Philip`> (several posts down)
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  749. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: html:abbr as an IE workaround? that's sad
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  752. # [17:58] <Philip`> Doesn't seem to be a commonly used pattern in practice, but maybe whoever was writing that code liked it or saw a site that relied on it
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  754. # [18:10] <Philip`> http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/05/11/rdf-2/ - "The Microdata section of the HTML5 draft might be one of its finest moments."
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  756. # [18:15] <jgraham> """I'm starting to tune out the HTML 5 meta-discussions [...] the emo-drama that people insist on manufacturing… “is such a buzz-kill."""
  757. # [18:16] <Philip`> Emu drama?
  758. # [18:16] <Philip`> Oh
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  760. # [18:19] <jgraham> Philip`: BTW, I expect the lack of discussion about the JSON format is because JSON is more interesting to people who just do things rather than people who architecture things
  761. # [18:20] <Philip`> Shouldn't there at least be someone complaining that 'item.properties.foo[0]' is much harder to type than 'item.foo' and in most cases will be equivalent?
  762. # [18:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: where's 'emo-drama' quoted from?
  763. # [18:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://shawn.medero.net/
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  787. # [19:31] <tantek> hsivonen, regarding "I wonder what html:abbr is about in Microformats.js" - see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#all_properties - and I invite you to #microformats for any additional comments.
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  792. # [19:38] <Philip`> tantek: That seems to just talk about the normal element named "abbr", not the crazy element named "html:abbr"
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  794. # [19:39] <tantek> Philp - is that some sort of oblique namespaces joke? I don't quite understand.
  795. # [19:41] <Philip`> tantek: No - it's about the element with localName == "html:abbr"
  796. # [19:42] <Philip`> (which is impossible to get when you parse XML, but is what you get if you parse "<html:abbr>" in a text/html parser that's not IE)
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  813. # [20:21] <Groovy> since when google.com uses <!doctype html> ?
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  822. # [20:40] <Philip`> Groovy: Since several months ago, at least
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  825. # [20:41] <Philip`> Groovy: (though only on a few of their pages)
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  837. # [21:04] <Wolfman2000> Afternoon. I'm trying to make some sense of the new HTML5 tags, and I want to be sure I understand their semantics. <nav> vs. <menu>: it seems that both are to be used for navigation links...and yet only <menu> directly accepts <li>. What is the proper way of using those tags?
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  842. # [21:18] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: You probably want <nav>
  843. # [21:19] <jgraham> <menu> is designed for building application menus but it isn't really supported yet
  844. # [21:19] * jgraham goes to check he isn't talking rubbish
  845. # [21:20] <gsnedders> nav is for primary navigation, menu is for something that I've never needed and thus can't remember what it is for
  846. # [21:20] <Wolfman2000> The next question then: <article> vs <section>. It seems that there are many sections per article, btu there can be many articles per page. Is an article supposed to represent an entire page, or just the content usually between <header> and <footer>? (I can rephrase if needed)
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  848. # [21:22] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: You can have multiple <article>s per page
  849. # [21:23] <jgraham> e.g. <article><h1>My first news item</h1></article> <article><h1>My second news item</h1></article>
  850. # [21:23] <Wolfman2000> ...and what if the items are not really...well, news/blog related?
  851. # [21:23] <jgraham> No problem
  852. # [21:24] <Wolfman2000> My original understanding: using a two column layout, <header> at top, <article> for main column, <nav>/<menu> for navigation on secondary column, <footer> on bottom. Is this still valid thinking?
  853. # [21:24] <jgraham> That seems reasonable
  854. # [21:25] <Wolfman2000> ...long as I'm not required to have <header> and <footer> in <article>/<section>, I may be able to make something work.
  855. # [21:25] <Wolfman2000> I'm currently redesigning one of my websites, and I've been convinced to at least look into HTML5. It seems to reduce my need for IDs at least.
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  858. # [21:29] <Philip`> http://google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=146898 - someone should tell them about <hX> elements instead of <strong>
  859. # [21:30] <Philip`> Aren't their CURIEs resulting in URIs like "http://rdf.data-vocabulary.orgreview"?
  860. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: I suggest Philip`.
  861. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Huh?
  862. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: To tell them about hX
  863. # [21:33] <jgraham> Philip`: If only there were a google employee around who could file a bug
  864. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: They don't seem to provide any way to provide feedback
  865. # [21:33] <Philip`> so complaining on IRC is the most effective thing to do
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  872. # [21:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess a polarizing filter darkens the sky because the light in unpolarized and hence polarizing it makes it less intense?
  873. # [21:49] <Philip`> Hah
  874. # [21:49] <Philip`> One example says xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/"
  875. # [21:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well that is true
  876. # [21:49] <Philip`> All the others say xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org"
  877. # [21:50] <jgraham> But it's not really the relevant fact
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  880. # [21:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: The point is that the light from the sky is partially polarised (because it is scattered light from the atmosphere and scattering polarises light in a way that depends on the angle of scattering)
  881. # [21:51] <Philip`> <spanspan property="v:locality">Springfield</span>
  882. # [21:51] <Philip`> I think they need to do a bit of QA on these help pages
  883. # [21:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: And as a consequence, with the polarizer set to the right angle you can eliminate almost all of the scattering from the sky
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  885. # [21:52] <jgraham> s/scattering/light/
  886. # [21:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: ah
  887. # [21:52] <jgraham> (or t least from those regions of the sky that are heavilly polarised)
  888. # [21:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is this a physics question or a photography question?
  889. # [21:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: a physics of photography question :)
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  893. # [21:53] <jgraham> Philip`: But evryone knows that http://example.com/ === http://example.com
  894. # [21:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: (It's random curiosity, really, but from a physics POV)
  895. # [21:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh that's OK. If it's curiosity I don't need to worry to much about being right
  896. # [21:54] <Philip`> jgraham: I do hope Google's implementation doesn't just look for the prefix "v:"
  897. # [21:54] * weinig is now known as ggaren
  898. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Apart from generic URI parsers that don't know about what RFC2616 defines on-top about scheme specific normalization
  899. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: :P
  900. # [21:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: "parsers" fail to meet the definition of "everybody" since "body" here specifically means "human body"
  901. # [21:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Didn't Hixie say that the Google implementation of some microdata stuff just used regexps
  902. # [21:56] <Wolfman2000> ...if only the Tidy HTML Validator extension I had recognized HTML5, it would make things easier...
  903. # [21:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: yes
  904. # [21:56] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: http://validator.nu
  905. # [21:56] <Wolfman2000> jgraham: the page I'm working on is not live yet
  906. # [21:57] <jgraham> http://html5.validator.nu/ is better actually
  907. # [21:57] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: Either change the "Address" dropdown to "textarea"
  908. # [21:57] <jgraham> or go through some pain to get a local install
  909. # [21:57] <Wolfman2000> ...gotta love javascript powered fields
  910. # [21:58] <Philip`> jgraham: No
  911. # [21:58] <Philip`> jgraham: "Google's handling of RDF blocks for license declarations is all done with regular expressions instead of actually parsing the namespaces"
  912. # [22:01] <jgraham> Philip`: That sounds quite close if you s/microdata/license declarations/
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  914. # [22:04] <Philip`> jgraham: For some reason I thought you said "RDFa" in your statement
  915. # [22:04] <Philip`> but the evidence indicates that you didn't
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  920. # [22:10] <Wolfman2000> ...and with the help of the new HTML5 tags (and some abuse of child selectors), I've trimmed out the <divs> and id=s from my main page. The other pages...will take some time.
  921. # [22:11] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: Has everything broken awfully in IE? :-)
  922. # [22:11] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: javascript workaround. :P
  923. # [22:12] <Wolfman2000> honestly, I don't really care about IE
  924. # [22:14] <Philip`> (Looking at http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/rdf.xml, I guess xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org" and xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/" are *both* wrong, and it ought to be xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#")
  925. # [22:15] <Wolfman2000> ...right, form elements should keep their IDs. That's fine.
  926. # [22:15] * ggaren is now known as weinig
  927. # [22:15] <Philip`> (but presumably Google can add some hacks in their parser to make it all work)
  928. # [22:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah but all your photos have their own pages, so the photostreams and set views don't have to be machine-readable
  929. # [22:21] <Wolfman2000> I'd like confirmation via this picture. http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1kpe.png Left sidebar uses <nav> & <ul> for its links. Center, horizontal links use <ul> by itself, no <nav>. Am I using the tags properly?
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  946. # [23:20] <Hixie> anyone remember where Philip`'s parser state diagram is?
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  949. # [23:24] <Dashiva> I don't know if it's the most recent, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/states10.png
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  953. # [23:28] <Hixie> Dashiva: sweet, thanks
  954. # [23:30] <Hixie> oh hey, the very next comment where i needed those for was philip giving links to them
  955. # [23:30] <Dashiva> haha
  956. # [23:33] <Hixie> so when yahoo came out with their "rdfa support", some people on the rdfa list quickly poked holes in it showing it wasn't exactly following the specs
  957. # [23:34] <Hixie> i wonder how long it'll be before someone tries to test google's rdfa support
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  962. # [23:43] <roc> not in SVG format? Shame!
  963. # [23:43] <Hixie> the one philip linked to was
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  969. # Session Close: Wed May 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)