/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:18] * jgraham has a certianly-broken implementation of N3 output now
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  7. # [00:24] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/1igm05tt25ip8kg10hureru72agmo2n2c9@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de has the most references of any e-mail i've ever seen in w3c space
  8. # [00:34] <jgraham> That is rather impressive
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  11. # [00:46] * Philip` gets the feeling that Björn has much more fun with the formatting of his emails than with their content
  12. # [00:46] <Hixie> ...why does the iCalendar example for RESOURCE imply that the meeting is going to need a racoon?!
  13. # [00:47] <Hixie> what kind of weird-ass meeting were the iCalendar guys going to?!
  14. # [00:50] <Philip`> Perhaps it was a meeting to discuss plans to overthrow Cyril Sneer
  15. # [00:53] <Hixie> can someone tell me if http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt says whether the STATUS line can be included more than once per vevent?
  16. # [00:53] <Hixie> it looks like it allows it
  17. # [00:53] <Hixie> but i may be missing some key line somewhere that says that the default is no duplicates?
  18. # [00:59] <Dashiva> A French raccoon to boot...
  19. # [00:59] <Hixie> i'm thinking the word has a double meaning but if it does i don't know it
  20. # [01:00] <Dashiva> Maybe karlcow knows
  21. # [01:13] <tantek> Hixie, from reading RFC2445 4.8.1.11 "Purpose: This property defines **the** overall status or confirmation for the calendar component." (**emphasis** added)
  22. # [01:14] <tantek> Thus at first glance I would conclude at most **one** STATUS per VEVENT
  23. # [01:14] <Hixie> sure but is there a conformance criteria anywhere saying how many you can give?
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  25. # [01:14] <Hixie> some of them are explicit
  26. # [01:15] <tantek> Hixie, compare with the next section 4.8.1.12 Summary which says "Purpose: This property defines **a** short summary or subject for the calendar component."
  27. # [01:15] <Hixie> yes but e.g. some say "The property can be specified once"
  28. # [01:15] <Hixie> and others say "This property can be specified in"
  29. # [01:15] <tantek> lacking explicit conformance criteria - such differences in property definition are another source of intent we have to go by
  30. # [01:15] <tantek> also, by what "makes sense"
  31. # [01:15] <tantek> e.g. it makes sense for an event to have at most one STATUS
  32. # [01:16] <Hixie> my goal here is to merely duplicate the exact conformance criteria of the rfc
  33. # [01:16] <Hixie> without interpretation
  34. # [01:16] <tantek> no matter how you read it you will be doing some interpretation
  35. # [01:16] <Hixie> without interpretation beyond the literal
  36. # [01:17] <tantek> and it also makes sense for an event to have multiple SUMMARY value, perhaps of different lengths
  37. # [01:17] <Philip`> Why not just say the data represented in the markup must follow the conformance criteria of the RFC (and not explicitly say what they are), and let validator developers work out what it means?
  38. # [01:18] * Philip` remembers reading things recently about someone attempting to make an iCal validator that was actually useful in practice and would tell you when your calendar would work in common applications, based on the feed validator
  39. # [01:18] <Hixie> Philip`: i couldn't work out a way to say it that made sense
  40. # [01:19] <Hixie> i hate how icalendar requires you to declare whether your value is a datetime or a date
  41. # [01:20] <Hixie> why on earth doesn't it just assume it's a datetime if there's a date and a time and assume it's a date if there's just a date?
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  45. # [01:24] <Hixie> wohay!
  46. # [01:25] <Hixie> i found a part of the spec that actually says what can be included once and what can't!
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  48. # [01:26] <tantek> Hixie do share which section #
  49. # [01:29] <Hixie> 4.6.1 Event Component
  50. # [01:29] <Hixie> this really is a quite well-written spec
  51. # [01:29] <Hixie> no implied conformance criteria or anything
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  53. # [01:34] <tantek> good find Hixie
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  57. # [01:51] <Hixie> weird
  58. # [01:51] <Hixie> 'duration' can take P1DT1S but not P1DT1H1S
  59. # [01:51] <Hixie> if you give the hours you have to give the minutes in order to give the seconds
  60. # [01:52] <tantek> I'm sure someone made an argument like "makes parsing easier" ;)
  61. # [01:53] <Hixie> i don't see how, in this case
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  66. # [02:10] * Hixie fails to understand the purpose and use of RECURRENCE-ID in iCalendar
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  68. # [02:17] <Hixie> i wonder whether to support all the recurring event properties
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  71. # [02:30] <Philip`> http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/104 - hmm, that "really simple scenario" seems to be basically what I was talking about last night, with fetching vocabulary definitions to discover subclass relationships
  72. # [02:32] <Philip`> (which is scary)
  73. # [02:32] <Hixie> "These are the kind of pipe dreams that I used to ridicule semantic web folk about" indeed
  74. # [02:35] * Philip` wonders what happens when Amazon builds its vocabulary as a subclass of Google's, and then Google changes its own vocabulary to be a subclass of Amazon's
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  77. # [02:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: They're both right, obviously
  78. # [02:53] <Hixie> jesus, iCalendar has a lot of examples for rdate
  79. # [02:55] <Dashiva> "They will now have a stake in answering the difficult questions around trust, confidence, accuracy and time-sensitivity of semantic information."
  80. # [02:55] <Dashiva> Are there even answers to those questions?
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  82. # [02:55] <Hixie> it's google's job to answer questions around trust, confidence, accuracy and time-sensitivity of semantic information
  83. # [02:55] <tantek> Hixie, rdate is really complex. And not clear that all the complexity is desired or needed.
  84. # [02:55] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's pretty much what google's area of expertise is
  85. # [02:56] <Hixie> tantek: indeed
  86. # [02:56] <tantek> Hixie, I suggest you take a look at the updates (removals) to rdate etc. that iCal-BASIC is doing.
  87. # [02:56] <tantek> I was keeping up with the "ietf-calsify" mailing list for a while, but after a while was unable to do so.
  88. # [02:56] <tantek> http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/
  89. # [02:56] <tantek> you may have better luck
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  92. # [02:59] <Hixie> tantek: thanks, noted
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  129. # [03:18] <Hixie> ok, finished adding the vEvent vocabulary to the html5 microdata section
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  178. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: where were you quoting from in http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-web-issues-and-practices/holding-on-html5#comment-1455 ?
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  185. # [08:44] <zcorpan_> Philip`: my copy of webkit moves <meta>, but not <link>, to head
  186. # [08:44] <zcorpan_> wonder if someone has filed bugs
  187. # [08:49] <Hixie> shelley missed the point in Philip`'s comment
  188. # [08:49] <Hixie> which is that people _must_ understand namespaces to use them
  189. # [08:50] <Hixie> but that they can treat the reverse dns names as opaque magic incantations and it'll still work
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  193. # [09:00] <aja> Hixie: ping (typo nit)
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  195. # [09:01] <Hixie> aja: here
  196. # [09:01] <aja> geo says 'dix' instead of 'six' digits
  197. # [09:02] <Hixie> thanks
  198. # [09:02] <Hixie> will fix
  199. # [09:03] <aja> np....what other uF-like micro's to come?
  200. # [09:04] <Hixie> aja: vevent (i added today), bibtex (doing that now), and vcard (already in) are all i'm planning on adding right now
  201. # [09:04] <Hixie> those were the ones i needed for the use cases that came up
  202. # [09:05] * aja was hoping for reviews :)
  203. # [09:06] <aja> and even hitem......yikes, item=item
  204. # [09:08] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/arun/statuses/1787778325
  205. # [09:08] <aja> guess those are probably far from 80% cases
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  207. # [09:13] <aja> hsivonen: more like a grue, IMHO
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  209. # [09:18] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "They are based on the vocabulary defined in the iCalendar specification, which should be consulted for more information about how to interpret values." - i'm a bit confused as to how to conform when one "should consult" another spec
  210. # [09:18] <Hixie> aja: nobody mentioned reviews anywhere in the use cases as far as i recall
  211. # [09:19] <Hixie> zcorpan_: what kind of conformance?
  212. # [09:19] <Hixie> (author, browser, tool, etc)
  213. # [09:20] <zcorpan_> Hixie: well that's also not so clear to me, who is the "should" intended for
  214. # [09:21] <Hixie> oh, oops, that shouldn't be a should
  215. # [09:21] <Hixie> my bad
  216. # [09:21] <aja> think twas similar wording in vcard, too, fwiw
  217. # [09:22] <zcorpan_> phew, i thought for a second it was just me (after pf suggesting html5 should say "should consult wcag" for alt requirements)
  218. # [09:22] <zcorpan_> (which also made no sense to me)
  219. # [09:23] <Hixie> yeah that was a mistake
  220. # [09:26] <aja> at least pf didn't say MUST :)
  221. # [09:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  222. # [09:28] <zcorpan_> aja: actually, after saying that "should consult" didn't make sense to me, they suggested instead "must consult"
  223. # [09:29] <aja> oh well
  224. # [09:29] <Hixie> was that a ua conf criteria? cos that would be hard to test!
  225. # [09:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i think it would be an authoring conf criteria
  226. # [09:30] <zcorpan_> still equally hard to test though
  227. # [09:30] <zcorpan_> since one can consult a spec but then ignore it
  228. # [09:30] <Hixie> i guess you ask the author "did you consult it?" and if they say no, their document is invalid?
  229. # [09:30] <Hixie> but if they say yes, then regardless of what they did, that criteria is met.
  230. # [09:31] <zcorpan_> yep
  231. # [09:32] <Hixie> man, bibtex is not well-defined
  232. # [09:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: What? You've found _any_ definition? You've done better than I.
  233. # [09:34] <aja> ...and has lotsa scary curly braces
  234. # [09:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: if you count tutorials and the like, i've found dozens
  235. # [09:34] <Hixie> all slightly different
  236. # [09:34] <Hixie> in subtle ways
  237. # [09:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh, sure, I found tutorials and the like. Never any actual spec, though.
  238. # [09:35] <Hixie> i also found the original "spec"/documentation
  239. # [09:35] <Hixie> from like 85
  240. # [09:35] <gsnedders> Oh, that.
  241. # [09:35] <gsnedders> That's useless.
  242. # [09:35] <Hixie> but iirc it failed to define anything
  243. # [09:35] <gsnedders> It defines what the fields mean.
  244. # [09:35] <gsnedders> It doesn't define the syntax or anything useful like that.
  245. # [09:38] <Hixie> yeah
  246. # [09:40] <gsnedders> This is why for Anolis I gave up and used refer (troff's format)
  247. # [09:40] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-158-125-194.range81-158.btcentralplus.com)
  248. # [09:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: since when do you give up on reverse engineering stuff and use something else?
  249. # [09:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: When I don't need one specific format badly enough
  250. # [09:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Also: when I have real deadlines
  251. # [09:41] <Hixie> bibtex is more widely used as far as i can tell
  252. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> so who'll write up a Web bibtex?
  253. # [09:41] <Hixie> me
  254. # [09:41] <Hixie> doing it now
  255. # [09:41] <Hixie> literally as we speak
  256. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> cool
  257. # [09:41] <Hixie> i'm up to "note"
  258. # [09:41] <Hixie> going down alphabetically :-)
  259. # [09:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: I take it you aren't worrying about real-BibTeX syntax?
  260. # [09:43] <tantek> gsnedders, you mean bibtex like for citations?
  261. # [09:44] <gsnedders> tantek: No, I mean what goes in the actual .bib file
  262. # [09:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: define "worrying"
  263. # [09:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm using the vocabulary for microdata
  264. # [09:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: and defining how you convert that _to_ bibtex
  265. # [09:45] <Hixie> which is far easier than parsing it
  266. # [09:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Needing to define syntax; so you don't need to actual parse BibTeX
  267. # [09:45] <tantek> Hixie, why did you choose bibtex when there are so many citation formats to choose from? http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats
  268. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: and _from_ is Someone Else's Problem?
  269. # [09:46] <Hixie> tantek: it was the best of a bad bunch (i used the microformats.org page as a guide)
  270. # [09:48] <tantek> What evaluation function did you use to determine "best" (or even an approximation thereof) ?
  271. # [09:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it deliberate or accidental that HTML5 defines a different tagName upper-casing algorithm than what browsers actually use?
  272. # [09:48] <Hixie> tantek: i forget, it was about 2 weeks ago.
  273. # [09:49] <Hixie> tantek: a combination of factors including deployment, support in software that would be used by the people who's use cases i was trying to address, breadth of support, etc
  274. # [09:49] <Hixie> (breadth as in how many types of works were supported)
  275. # [09:49] <tantek> ok good to know. that's been one of the blocking items for the citation microformat
  276. # [09:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: no
  277. # [09:50] <hsivonen> tantek: fwiw, I'd pick BibTeX by popularity which includes stuff like ACM offering snippets in .bib
  278. # [09:50] <tantek> too many existing (not quite compatible) citation formats to choose from
  279. # [09:50] <Hixie> stuff like ACM offering snippets in .bib was one of the factors
  280. # [09:50] <Hixie> in fact export to bibtex is quite a commonly available feature
  281. # [09:51] <Hixie> even google scholar does it
  282. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: although with those snippets, you need to be able convert from .bib
  283. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: was "no" to deliberate or accidental?
  284. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: not deliberate as far as i'm aware (sorry)
  285. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  286. # [09:54] * gsnedders finishes reading Björn's email
  287. # [09:55] <gsnedders> That was, uh, impressive.
  288. # [09:57] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/105
  289. # [09:57] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/106
  290. # [09:57] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/107
  291. # [09:57] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/108
  292. # [09:57] <Hixie> oh yes, that _is_ intentional
  293. # [09:57] <Hixie> it was based on something you said, actually
  294. # [09:58] <Hixie> namely that the parser should only have magic in the 7bit ascii range
  295. # [09:58] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@121.217.132.251)
  296. # [09:58] <hsivonen> It seems that Gecko and WebKit both have different lower-casing in the parser and in the DOM
  297. # [09:58] <hsivonen> yay
  298. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: only having 7bit magic in parser matches Gecko&WebKit, yes
  299. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Opera is different...
  300. # [10:00] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  301. # [10:01] <Hixie> (i don't think this is an area with great interop issues)
  302. # [10:02] <hsivonen> See http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/109 in Safari...
  303. # [10:02] <hsivonen> the DOM view
  304. # [10:02] <hsivonen> ß get uppercased to SS
  305. # [10:03] <hsivonen> I wonder what upper/lowercasing Gecko uses in the DOM
  306. # [10:03] <hsivonen> it's neither ASCII nor full Unicode
  307. # [10:04] <Hixie> w(document.getElementsByTagName("gross").length) == 0 in that example
  308. # [10:04] <Hixie> good times
  309. # [10:04] <Hixie> w(document.getElementsByTagName("GROSS").length) == 0 too
  310. # [10:05] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.160.97.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  311. # [10:05] <hsivonen> clearly, WebKit lowercases argument instead of doing Unicode fold case comparison
  312. # [10:05] <Hixie> didn't this get resolved recently?
  313. # [10:06] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@203.39.247.241)
  314. # [10:06] <hsivonen> the spec says *something* but I don't recall the discussion of getting there taking data about the DOM side of implementation into account
  315. # [10:07] <hsivonen> I'd like to see an informed sign-off from people who call the DOM shots for various code bases before I try to change the algorithms Gecko uses here
  316. # [10:08] <hsivonen> I'll send email
  317. # [10:11] <Hixie> i seem to recall the discussion involved bz and mjs
  318. # [10:11] <Hixie> and them signing off on what the spec says now
  319. # [10:12] <hsivonen> ah. ok
  320. # [10:13] <othermaciej> what was the topic?
  321. # [10:14] <othermaciej> oh I'd have to review what the spec says
  322. # [10:14] <hsivonen> othermaciej: browsers currently use different upper/lowercasing algorithms in DOM operations from what the spec says
  323. # [10:15] <othermaciej> I think what makes sense is to ascii-lowercase (not Unicode) the parameter to getElementsByTagName for HTML elements in HTML documents only
  324. # [10:15] <othermaciej> and maybe also lowercase the tag name in such cases
  325. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (I think I was in favor of that but bz was not)
  326. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (if no lowercasing then you have to use localName instead of tagName to DTRT for parser-generated nodes)
  327. # [10:16] <Hixie> the spec says, for html docs only, "compare the given argument in a case-sensitive manner, but when looking at HTML elements, the argument must first be converted to lowercase"
  328. # [10:16] * weinig is now known as weinig|zonk
  329. # [10:16] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-11-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  330. # [10:16] <Hixie> and boris signed off on it: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0020.html
  331. # [10:17] <othermaciej> and does "converted to lowercase" mean unicode or ASCII lowercase?
  332. # [10:17] <Hixie> Converting a string to lowercase means replacing all characters in the range U+0041 .. U+005A (i.e. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z) with the corresponding characters in the range U+0061 .. U+007A (i.e. LATIN SMALL LETTER A to LATIN SMALL LETTER Z).
  333. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: you really should change the term in the spec to include the qualifier ASCII
  334. # [10:17] <Hixie> someone filed a bug on it
  335. # [10:17] <Hixie> it'll happen in due course
  336. # [10:18] <Hixie> rather busy with microdata right now
  337. # [10:18] <Hixie> :-)
  338. # [10:18] <othermaciej> so I see a result of 1 in my WebKit ToT build for the case hsivonen posted
  339. # [10:19] <othermaciej> is that not right?
  340. # [10:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which test case?
  341. # [10:19] <othermaciej> does the spec say to compare to tagName or to localName?
  342. # [10:19] <Hixie> what's wrong in webkit for the last example hsivonen posted is that the DOM view shows .tagName says "SS"
  343. # [10:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: at least Safari 4 public beta uses Unicode upper/lowercasing for DOM ops
  344. # [10:20] <othermaciej> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/109
  345. # [10:20] <othermaciej> is it the uppercasing of the tagName that's wrong?
  346. # [10:20] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
  347. # [10:20] <Hixie> a better example is http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/110
  348. # [10:21] <Hixie> compare the result of getEBTN() (1, correct) to the DOM (shows two GROSSes, which is wrong)
  349. # [10:21] <othermaciej> fair enough
  350. # [10:21] <Hixie> wrong per html5, that is
  351. # [10:21] <Hixie> i don't think this is anything to worry about
  352. # [10:22] <othermaciej> I think our getElementByTagName compares localName, not tagName
  353. # [10:22] <othermaciej> which is why the DOM display is inconsistent with the results of gEBTN
  354. # [10:22] <Hixie> right
  355. # [10:23] <Hixie> the DOM display is using a Unicode ToUpper() but should use just the ASCII one per html5 today
  356. # [10:23] <othermaciej> is it correct to compare to localName? (I would think so, despite the name of the API)
  357. # [10:23] <Hixie> yes
  358. # [10:23] <hsivonen> does tagName exist in the WebKit data model
  359. # [10:23] <hsivonen> it doesn't in the Gecko data model
  360. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I don't know what you mean by "exist"
  361. # [10:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: does an element have a pointer to a string/atom object that represents tagName?
  362. # [10:24] <othermaciej> no
  363. # [10:25] <othermaciej> it knows how to compute it from the QName
  364. # [10:25] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  365. # [10:25] <Hixie> appaarently it doesn't know how to do it properly :-P
  366. # [10:25] <othermaciej> (which is different for html elements in an html document)
  367. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Gecko also stores local and prefix and computes tagName if JS asks for it
  368. # [10:27] <othermaciej> really the only bug is using a unicode uppercasing instead of an ascii uppercasing
  369. # [10:27] <Hixie> yep
  370. # [10:28] <othermaciej> though it also looks to me like getElementsByTagName is doing a unicode lowercasing
  371. # [10:28] <othermaciej> which is also a bug, but not revealed by hsivonen's example
  372. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I could have sworn we added operations to do ASCII-only upper/lower
  373. # [10:28] <Hixie> and you'll get an imperceptible perf boost by following html5, horrah
  374. # [10:31] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-21-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  375. # [10:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it was revealed by one of my earlier examples
  376. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> wait, getElementsByTagName uses localName?
  377. # [10:32] * zcorpan_ has probably got that wrong in Web DOM Core then
  378. # [10:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I sure hope so
  379. # [10:33] * hsivonen hasn't tested
  380. # [10:33] <othermaciej> amusingly, DOM 3 Core is unclear
  381. # [10:35] <zcorpan_> firefox uses nodeName
  382. # [10:35] <zcorpan_> opera and webkit use localName
  383. # [10:35] <zcorpan_> ie uses the equivalent of localName, too
  384. # [10:35] * zcorpan_ will fix web dom core
  385. # [10:37] <hsivonen> I guess I should file a Gecko bug, then
  386. # [10:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019681.html
  387. # [10:39] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.160.97.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) ("Gone for a burton")
  388. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  389. # [10:44] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-document-getelementsbytagname fixed
  390. # [10:45] <zcorpan_> that just made getElementsByTagName more useful in compound documents, like selectors
  391. # [10:47] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: What's a filter?
  392. # [10:47] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: "A NodeList is a collection, except that NodeLists can be static (as opposed to live) if a specification defines them to be static. [HTML5]"
  393. # [10:48] <gsnedders> um, how am I meant to know that is what a filter refers to?
  394. # [10:48] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-18adc5edddf8b7b2) (Remote closed the connection)
  395. # [10:48] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: i guess i should reference html5 for that
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  400. # [11:02] <Philip`> jgraham: <type 'exceptions.NameError'>: global name 'reflib' is not defined
  401. # [11:02] <Philip`> in microdata.py:193
  402. # [11:03] <Philip`> using http://iandavis.com/2009/microdata/ as input
  403. # [11:03] <hsivonen> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/05/building_upon_untested_assumpt.html
  404. # [11:03] <jgraham> Philip`: Fixed?
  405. # [11:04] <jgraham> (I literally only tested the test document as input and I only checked that the output existed not that it made sense so, as I said, there are bugs)
  406. # [11:04] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems to be happier now
  407. # [11:05] <Philip`> "[<microdata.SimpleUrl object at 0x2b07e4e47490>]" _3:title "Internet Alchemy";
  408. # [11:07] <Philip`> Hmm, the output seems to be only vaguely correlated to what it should be
  409. # [11:08] <Philip`> (even on test.html)
  410. # [11:09] <Philip`> So I agree there are bugs :-)
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  418. # [11:47] <gsnedders> "Summary: The HTML5 editor says he's fighting a battle against Flash. But he doesn't explain why, so it's hard for us to help him get better." — jd
  419. # [11:50] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  420. # [11:58] <aja> anyone know if chromium pre-alpha nightlies are pulling webkit trunk? says 530.10
  421. # [11:59] <Hixie> chromium is usually a bit behind
  422. # [11:59] * aja obviously knows nada abouit webkit version numbering
  423. # [11:59] <Hixie> they merge to trunk every few days/weeks (not sure the schedule)
  424. # [11:59] <Hixie> (at least they used to, they were aiming to just be on tip always, dunno if they got there yet)
  425. # [12:00] <Hixie> there's a #chromium channel which might be more appropriate :-)
  426. # [12:00] <aja> yeah,that's why i was wondering
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  442. # [12:38] * zcorpan__ is now known as zcorpan
  443. # [12:38] <zcorpan> wonder if html5 should be published again once the microdata stuff is "done"
  444. # [12:39] <zcorpan> to promote wider review of the microdata stuff
  445. # [12:39] <Hixie> probably
  446. # [12:39] <Hixie> i wonder when sam will do that review he said he'd do
  447. # [12:39] <Hixie> i thought he said he was going to do it last month
  448. # [12:40] <Hixie> we sent out the whatwg call for review and everything, but i don't think he ever did anything with it
  449. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: re running out of punctuation characters to use, there's "|"
  450. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: also, s/tetx/text/
  451. # [12:43] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  452. # [12:43] * jgraham wonders hy Hixie is running out of punctuation characters
  453. # [12:43] <jgraham> *why
  454. # [12:48] <zcorpan> don't remember what he'd use them for, and can't find it in the logs, but i think it was something with abbreviating microdata names, and "." and ":" were taken
  455. # [12:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, | might work. It's what CSS uses, I guess.
  456. # [12:53] <Hixie> jgraham: basically if we want to register prefixes, we'd need a prefix punctuation character
  457. # [12:54] <Hixie> jgraham: so e.g. "foaf" could be registered in the wiki
  458. # [12:54] <Hixie> foaf|name
  459. # [12:54] <Hixie> item="foaf|Person" ... itemprop="foaf|name"
  460. # [12:54] <Hixie> could work i guess
  461. # [12:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: (fixed tetx, thanks)
  462. # [12:55] <Philip`> Or use "-"
  463. # [12:55] <hsivonen> the openid rel stuff uses .
  464. # [12:56] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-196-6.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  465. # [12:56] <Hixie> Philip`: too many one-word terms use "-"
  466. # [12:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: "." is in uris and reversed dns thingies
  467. # [12:56] <jgraham> It has to be a non-uri character, right?
  468. # [12:56] <zcorpan> a uri will have a colon and a reversed dns would have at least two dots
  469. # [12:56] <zcorpan> whereas a prefixed name would have just one dot
  470. # [12:57] <Hixie> true
  471. # [12:57] <Philip`> Could get rid of the reversed DNS thing, and then '.' would be free
  472. # [12:57] <jgraham> using 1 vs multiple dots seems really bad
  473. # [12:58] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't want to require that people use ugly URIs or require that they prefix things.
  474. # [12:58] <Hixie> with registered prefixes
  475. # [12:58] <jgraham> Would / work?
  476. # [12:59] <Philip`> Hixie: They can still use non-globally-unique strings in that case
  477. # [12:59] <zcorpan> # ?
  478. # [12:59] <jgraham> Philip`: I think the reverse dns thing is nice
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  480. # [13:00] <zcorpan> item="foaf/Person" ... item="foaf#Person"
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  482. # [13:00] <jgraham> Philip`: Also if you want ot report bugs on my microdata implementation, please do :)
  483. # [13:00] <Philip`> The reversed DNS thing only seems to be useful when they want a globally unique identifier, and they don't want to register a prefix, and they think "z.y.x.a" is significantly less ugly than "http://x.y.z/a"
  484. # [13:00] <Philip`> jgraham: It's too broken for me to bother reporting specific bugs - you should just look at it yourself ;-)
  485. # [13:00] <jgraham> Gah
  486. # [13:01] <Philip`> (at least the RDF bit)
  487. # [13:01] <jgraham> I was hoping that you would have noticed some particular class of underlying brokenness which suggested a simple but far reaching bug
  488. # [13:02] <Philip`> jgraham: As far as I can tell, the underlying brokenness is that your RDF extraction is totally broken :-p
  489. # [13:02] <Philip`> but it might still be a simple fix in the implementation
  490. # [13:04] <Philip`> jgraham: e.g. "Amanda" and "Jazz Band" aren't properties of whatever item they're meant to be properties of
  491. # [13:04] <jgraham> Philip`: That wasn't too helpful :p (seriously though I will try to look at it this evening or so)
  492. # [13:04] <Philip`> and all the top-level items should be in vocab:item
  493. # [13:05] <Philip`> and there's no rdf:type anywhere
  494. # [13:06] <jgraham> Is rdf:type something that was added more recently than Sunday? I didn't actually read the spec again since then
  495. # [13:06] <Philip`> It's always been there
  496. # [13:06] <Philip`> (vocab:item was new, though)
  497. # [13:07] <Hixie> ah well i figure we'll punt on the registered prefixes for now
  498. # [13:07] <Hixie> i'm sure we can find something to make it work if we need to later
  499. # [13:07] <Hixie> first though i must sleep
  500. # [13:07] <Hixie> nn
  501. # [13:07] <Philip`> jgraham: Also, in things like '<http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/custom#com.damowmow.img> "http://james.html5.org/microdata/hedral.jpeg"' I think the object should be a resource rather than a string
  502. # [13:08] <jgraham> Philip`: That sounds reasonable
  503. # [13:08] <Philip`> jgraham: Also: """Silver is years old and refuses to eat alone, always waiting for either Yellow or Blue to eat with him.11"""
  504. # [13:09] <jgraham> Interesting
  505. # [13:09] <Philip`> Also looks like <time> isn't being handled properly
  506. # [13:11] <jgraham> Philip`: Thanks
  507. # [13:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, you ought to change (or remove) the fallback text in http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/flash/001.html since i see people pointing to it still and hence people copy-and-paste verbatim and the web is full of "FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this)."
  508. # [13:18] <zcorpan> s/verbatim/and change only the parts needed to make it work/
  509. # [13:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: also the cc should look like <!--[if !IE]>--> ... <!--<![endif]--> in order to be valid in html5
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  533. # [15:02] <hsivonen> hmm. it seems to me that http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-profiles would render new content written with RDFa profiles incompatible with existing RDFa consumers
  534. # [15:02] <hsivonen> just like HTML5 microdata would be incompatible with existing RDFa consumers
  535. # [15:05] <Philip`> I guess changing xmlns:*="" to prefix="..." would be similarly incompatible
  536. # [15:08] <Philip`> (So it'd be nice to sort out any such issues before everyone starts deploying RDFa more than they have already)
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  547. # [15:41] <hsivonen> I'm completely puzzled why http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/reftests/bugs/444375-1-ref.html renders differently with the HTML5 parser even though the DOM looks the same to me
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  698. # [16:11] <gsnedders> Is anyone expecting @autosave or @results to be valid on input?
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  708. # [16:14] * Philip` decides that the microdata DOM API is crazy, because sometimes it'll return a string and sometimes it'll return an array and you have no way of predicting which it's going to be and your code will break horribly when you expect something to specified multiple times and it's only specified once
  709. # [16:14] <Philip`> s/to spec/to be spec/
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  717. # [16:40] * Lachy finally found a few minutes to look at the new microdata section
  718. # [16:40] <Lachy> looks interesting, but only read the introductory text so far
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  998. # Session Close: Fri May 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)