/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * gsnedders gawps at PHP's memory usage when storing arrays
  4. # [00:01] <gsnedders> We're talking ~70 bytes of overhead per array value
  5. # [00:02] <gsnedders> Which with what I'm doing is 25 times what storing the raw value would
  6. # [00:02] <gsnedders> *sighs*
  7. # [00:02] * Philip` wonders how gsnedders is storing raw values that are 2.8 bits each
  8. # [00:02] <Philip`> *bytes
  9. # [00:02] * gsnedders notes he wasn't being exact
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  13. # [00:19] <annevk5> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009May/0022.html is this bit of HTML5 so intuitive or did he actually look into it?
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  18. # [00:24] <Hixie> annevk5: hah, awesome
  19. # [00:25] <Hixie> annevk5: you should let him know html5 already does that :-)
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  21. # [00:49] <annevk5> Hixie, I'm not on that list anymore
  22. # [00:50] <annevk5> Hixie, out of curiosity, do you keep some notes somewhere other than /issues/ on what you're planning to work / working on?
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  24. # [00:50] <Hixie> i have my company-internal okr list which says what i plan to have done by the end of the quarter
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  26. # [00:51] <Hixie> but basically i just do what people want me to do
  27. # [00:51] <Hixie> so if you have something you need doing, let mek now
  28. # [00:51] <Hixie> and i'll get to it after microdata
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  30. # [00:55] <annevk5> what's left for microdata? the remaining comments?
  31. # [00:56] <Philip`> Hmm... Microdata can be used to represent tree-shaped data structures
  32. # [00:56] <Philip`> HTML documents are tree-shaped data structures
  33. # [00:57] <Philip`> Therefore, I think we should have a way to encode HTML documents inside microdata attributes
  34. # [00:58] <Hixie> annevk5: quite a few use cases not yet addressed
  35. # [00:58] <Hixie> still got lots of mail to go through
  36. # [00:58] <Philip`> <div item=p><meta itemprop=style content=background:yellow></div> etc
  37. # [00:58] <Hixie> well, not mail, but use cases
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  46. # [01:22] <dolske> Hixie: why do media elements not get UA-provided controls unless the |controls| attribute is explicitly set?
  47. # [01:22] <dolske> it seems to be a problem people keep stumbling over, and feeds have an annoying habit of stripping it too.
  48. # [01:24] <Hixie> how else would you do it?
  49. # [01:24] <Hixie> basically it was the least bad solution we could find
  50. # [01:25] <dolske> have UA-controls be the default, unless a nocontrols attribute was set?
  51. # [01:26] <Hixie> how would you handle the case where nocontrols is set but js is disabled?
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  54. # [01:27] <dolske> have the UA ignore the attribute, and provide controls anyway?
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  56. # [01:27] <annevk5> I think it was mostly this way because the original design didn't have controls at all.
  57. # [01:28] <Hixie> dolske: so you would have elements with nocontrols="" have controls?
  58. # [01:29] <dolske> only when JS is disabled, since the page obviously can't provide its own.
  59. # [01:29] <Hixie> seems like the same as a controls="" attribute, except for being a negative attribute (historically a source of confusion) and one that isn't always accurate
  60. # [01:31] <dolske> Doesn't seem any worse than today with no controls attribute set and JS disabled... I'd expect a UA to enable the default controls in that case too.
  61. # [01:31] <Hixie> right but at least the source doesn't lie about what's going on there :-)
  62. # [01:32] <Hixie> it's early days yet, i'd expect feed sanitisers to fix their code in due course
  63. # [01:32] <Hixie> i'm surprised they're letting <video> through at all, that's probably a sign of a serious security bug
  64. # [01:32] <dolske> It seems a little less ambigious when JS is *enabled*, though... with "controls" you can't know for a fact that the page is going to supply its own, maybe something stripped the attribute. It seems unlikely for someone to accidentally add a "nocontrols" attribute.
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  66. # [01:33] <Hixie> i don't see why anything would strip the controls="" value specifically but not add a nocontrols="" attribute unless there is already a security bug, as noted
  67. # [01:35] * gsnedders wonders how to make php html5lib more conformant without losing perf.
  68. # [01:35] <dolske> I suppose, although there's still author error...
  69. # [01:35] * gsnedders wonders about turning the whole tokenizer into a switch($state) statement, hence avoiding function call overhead (which is non-neglible)
  70. # [01:37] <annevk5> the UA should probably have a right click menu with options regardless
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  74. # [01:49] <Hixie> yeah the browser should always make the controls available, even if the author said not to -- the attribute is just a way to say that the browser should definitely provide them
  75. # [01:49] <Hixie> as opposed to only if the user wants them
  76. # [01:49] <Hixie> that's another reason i don't really like "nocontrols"
  77. # [01:49] <Hixie> it's more like "no-controls-unless-you-want-them"
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  112. # [05:46] <zcorpan__> "Yalin Wang and Jianying Hu have written an interesting paper on table
  113. # [05:46] <zcorpan__> type detection. Here's a link: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&id=511478 They developed an algorithm and tested it on about 14000 tables." - http://markmail.org/message/mmlgkpck35u66qjp
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  116. # [05:55] <zcorpan> hmm, not free to read the paper
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  118. # [06:14] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/1242739380.4531.275.camel@localhost
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  129. # [07:33] <heycam> close ACTION-2561
  130. # [07:33] <heycam> sorry, ww
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  160. # [09:19] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://www.research.ibm.com/people/j/jyhu/www2002.pdf
  161. # [09:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
  162. # [09:27] <hsivonen> whoa. I've failed to reference to email where James Clark calls the BS on XSD in my thesis
  163. # [09:29] <hsivonen> hmm. that sentence needs some parentheses to parse correctly
  164. # [09:29] <hsivonen> I've failed to reference in my thesis the email where James Clark calls the BS on XSD
  165. # [09:30] <hsivonen> this one http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-use/mail-archive/msg00217.html
  166. # [09:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: were you planning on writing a microdata version of ccREL?
  167. # [09:32] <Hixie> no, as discussed here: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019668.html
  168. # [09:32] <Hixie> though it has been suggested that being able to link a rel=license (or similar) directly to an <img> or <video> would be beneficial (though without the extra baggage of ccREL, we don't want to be interpreting licenses in microdata or anything)
  169. # [09:32] <Hixie> dunno if that will involve microdata though
  170. # [09:32] <Hixie> i don't really see that it can to be honest
  171. # [09:33] <Hixie> well i guess it could
  172. # [09:33] <Hixie> but it'd be a bit awkward
  173. # [09:33] <Hixie> i dunno
  174. # [09:33] <Hixie> we'll see
  175. # [09:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to me that attribution-name, attribution-url and license could be properties on an item
  176. # [09:33] <hsivonen> and more-rights
  177. # [09:34] <Hixie> i don't see any reason to make the attribution-name and attribution-url machine readable
  178. # [09:34] <Hixie> such a thing would become intractable quickly and is not really needed by most licenses anyway
  179. # [09:34] <Hixie> (most licenses need the license and/or copyright and/or disclaimer included, not the attribution)
  180. # [09:35] <Hixie> (and i don't see why any of that is of benefit to computers searching through this stuff)
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  189. # [10:13] <hsivonen> is it intentional that accesskey allows astral characters?
  190. # [10:15] <Hixie> yes
  191. # [10:16] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  192. # [10:16] <pesla> np
  193. # [10:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: you might want to warn about it of course :-)
  194. # [10:16] <Hixie> "this seems unlikely to be a useful key"
  195. # [10:18] <zcorpan> what's Document.load?
  196. # [10:18] <zcorpan> seems to be undefined in my browsers
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  198. # [10:20] <Hixie> ok time for bed
  199. # [10:20] <Hixie> nn
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  202. # [10:27] * hsivonen thought both Gecko and Opera had DOM Load/Save
  203. # [10:28] <hsivonen> from the era when W3C specs were considered presumptively righteous and MS inventions like XHR presumptively dirty
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  205. # [10:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: the character separating prefix and property should be the underscore in order to find the definition using google
  206. # [10:32] <jgraham> Bt oh boy would that be ugly
  207. # [10:32] <jgraham> *But
  208. # [10:32] <jgraham> Also: the paper on table classification looks rather interesting
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  211. # [10:34] <zcorpan> it would be interesting to look at tables that have nested tables but otherwise has the characteristics of a genuine table
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  214. # [10:50] <zcorpan> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F - alt text is not used
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  216. # [10:52] * jgraham becomes slightly nervous of the conclusions in the paper when it starts talking about <ROWSPAN> and <COLSPAN> tags
  217. # [10:53] <jgraham> Also, it would be interesting to know how biased they are by working with the Java swing XML parser which presumably does not implement robust HTML parsing
  218. # [10:55] <Philip`> Also this was in 2002, when the world was different
  219. # [10:55] <zcorpan> figure 2b has empty tbody elements
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  222. # [10:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe someone has doen a followup? Can you search for papers that cite this one?
  223. # [10:58] <Philip`> jgraham: Can't you search for them? :-p
  224. # [10:58] <Philip`> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&id=511478#citedby
  225. # [10:58] <Philip`> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&cites=1801764763188325408
  226. # [10:59] <Philip`> etc
  227. # [11:01] <jgraham> Philip`: Maybe. I don't know what ACM lets you do without paying but I don know that you can do whatever :)
  228. # [11:02] <Philip`> I don't have any special access now since I'm still at home :-)
  229. # [11:02] <jgraham> Philip`: You could proxy yourself through cam though :)
  230. # [11:02] <Philip`> The page zcorpan linked to has all the information, and only the PDF itself is restricted, as far as I know
  231. # [11:03] <Philip`> jgraham: I could, but I'm too lazy to do that :-p
  232. # [11:05] <zcorpan> jgraham: the google search result points to the pdfs directly
  233. # [11:05] <Philip`> (Also, I haven't figured out how to set up an actual proxy, so I use rdesktop to download the files locally on the remote server, and then copy via sftp)
  234. # [11:08] <jgraham> Philip`: Can't you do something like ssh -D (mor options that I can't remember)
  235. # [11:11] * jgraham takes this oppertunity (again) to point out how insane the idea of pay-per-subscription scientific journals are
  236. # [11:11] <Philip`> jgraham: I could, but the last half of your command line is where the problem is
  237. # [11:12] <Philip`> (Also, configuring the browser to use that proxy requires knowledge and effort)
  238. # [11:12] <hsivonen> my hypothesis is that university libraries could run the system more cheaply by paying the salaries of the journal editors than by subscribing to the journals
  239. # [11:12] <Philip`> It does seem a bit silly when you can just Google for the paper's title and download the PDF directly
  240. # [11:13] <Philip`> and I've only seen that method fail with with really ancient (like 1990s) papers
  241. # [11:13] <hsivonen> the whole system seems to be supported by the inertia of universities insisting on giving more academic credit for publishing in one of these behind-the-paywall journals
  242. # [11:13] <jgraham> Philip`: I used the method in http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2006/12/08/ssh-tunnel-socks-proxy-forwarding-secure-browsing/
  243. # [11:13] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  244. # [11:14] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, that doesn't sound too complex
  245. # [11:15] <hsivonen> the inertia with Type 3 fonts in LaTeX-originating PDFs is great, too
  246. # [11:16] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  247. # [11:16] <jgraham> It seems like the paper above has ~15% of tables being "genuine" tables whereas there is a Google (and others) paper that finds ~1.1% are "relational tables"
  248. # [11:16] <jgraham> (the latter apper is called "WebTables: Exploring the Power of Tables on the Web" if you want to find it)
  249. # [11:17] <roc> hsivonen: the academics are actually changing relatively fast
  250. # [11:17] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  251. # [11:17] <roc> see the recent MIT decision for example
  252. # [11:17] <hsivonen> roc: what did MIT decide?
  253. # [11:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: The problem with fonts in LaTeX is that almost no LaTeX users understand how TeX fonts work
  254. # [11:17] <roc> basically the entire faculty is only allowed to publish in journals that allow public access
  255. # [11:17] <hsivonen> roc: cool
  256. # [11:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: e.g. me
  257. # [11:18] <hsivonen> the anecdotes I've heard recently have been about water engineering, marine biology and cancer research
  258. # [11:18] <roc> also you see on a regular basis the entire editorial board of a 'normal' pay-per-view journal resigning and setting up a new open-access journal with a slightly different name
  259. # [11:19] <Philip`> The instructions I got for some paper submission thing was they required a PS version of the paper as well as PDF, because most LaTeX users put the wrong type of fonts in the PDF
  260. # [11:19] <hsivonen> roc: nice
  261. # [11:20] <hsivonen> too bad ACM, Elsevier and Springer still hold the locks to back catalog
  262. # [11:24] <jgraham> roc: I have never seen that. Also making faculty do something is interesting because (in many cases) the faculty don't have to keep publishing much
  263. # [11:24] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  264. # [11:25] <hsivonen> (the anecdotes I mentioned above were anecdotes about paywall craziness)
  265. # [11:27] <roc> here's the MIT thing
  266. # [11:27] <roc> http://www.bitsbook.com/2009/03/mit-adopts-an-open-access-policy/
  267. # [11:28] <hsivonen> thanks
  268. # [11:28] <jgraham> roc: Oh it doesn't actually require that they publishin an open access journal. It just requires that they *also* publish the information in the (open access) MIT repository
  269. # [11:29] <jgraham> Which is not that different to putting the article on arXiv
  270. # [11:29] * hsivonen wonders why MIT ops to disallow selling the articles for profit
  271. # [11:29] <roc> yes but the journal has to *allow* open access
  272. # [11:29] <hsivonen> if they are already available on the Web, why bother disallowing business model innovation that could spread the ideas even further
  273. # [11:30] <roc> most traditional journals don't
  274. # [11:30] <roc> many of them have been turning a blind eye to personal Web publication
  275. # [11:31] <jgraham> roc: Where does it say that? Of course the journal has to allow you to also put the article in another place but since they were all allowing that for arXiv anyway it doesn't seem that helpful
  276. # [11:31] <jgraham> (maybe arXiv isn't so prevelant in other fields so there it might be a big change)
  277. # [11:31] <roc> most traditional journals, at least in CS-related fields that I'm familiar with, technically required you to sign over copyright, at which point you lose the right to publish your article on your own Web site
  278. # [11:31] <hsivonen> so the policy is a great improvement, but I don't understand MIT's fascination with the *-nc flavors of CC licensing and now adopting a policy that doesn't allow the Provost to apply Free licenses to the papers
  279. # [11:32] <roc> it's true that people were just ignoring that
  280. # [11:33] <roc> but the MIT policy is flat-out incompatible with copyright assignment to the journal, unless the journal explicitly allows the open-access MIT publication
  281. # [11:33] <jgraham> roc: IIRC the blackwells publishing copyright form that I had to sign used to say that you were signing all the rights to blackwells and that you should try to disseminate the paper using arXiv
  282. # [11:33] <jgraham> I never understood how the cluses were compatible
  283. # [11:33] <jgraham> *clauses
  284. # [11:33] <roc> me neither
  285. # [11:34] <hsivonen> It's insane that strictly speaking one needs to ask a journal company for permission to publish a compilation of articles as a PhD thesis
  286. # [11:34] <jgraham> I think recently they might have changed it so that you retained your own copyright
  287. # [11:35] <roc> could be, I've been out of the loop
  288. # [11:35] <roc> anyway, licensing and other details aside, there's a clear desire by MIT faculty and various other academic groups to make their work open access
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  293. # [11:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: when elements get cloned, lots of unhelpful messages are generated
  294. # [11:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: consider <div><div><div><ul><b><li></ul>x</div>x</div>x</div>
  295. # [12:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: all "End tag div seen but there were unclosed elements." messages are just adding noise
  296. # [12:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: or <ul><b><li></ul>x<p><p><p>
  297. # [12:04] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@130.37.26.63)
  298. # [12:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.chasejobs.co.uk/index.php?option=com_catsone has such markup
  299. # [12:07] * zcorpan filed a bug
  300. # [12:07] <gsnedders> zcorpan: The spec doesn't say to use alt text. Blame Hixie
  301. # [12:08] <zcorpan> gsnedders: does the spec say to use textContent?
  302. # [12:08] <jgraham> Doesn't the spec just say to use textContent
  303. # [12:08] <jgraham> Oh, you already asked that
  304. # [12:08] * Quits: ojan_ (n=ojan@203.39.247.241)
  305. # [12:09] <gsnedders> zcorpan: No, it just says to use the element. Doesn't say how.
  306. # [12:09] <gsnedders> zcorpan: And textContent seems a sane soltion
  307. # [12:09] <zcorpan> gsnedders: well then it's your bug to not show the image or its text equivalent
  308. # [12:10] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Not showing it seems perfectly reasonable though
  309. # [12:10] <zcorpan> i disagree :)
  310. # [12:10] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  311. # [12:12] <zcorpan> it seems reasonable to be able to use <h1><img src=... alt="Foo"></h1> and expect the image or "Foo" to show up in the outline
  312. # [12:12] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@203.39.247.241)
  313. # [12:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: It seems entirely unreasonable for an image to show up in an outline :)
  314. # [12:13] <jgraham> (But quite reasonable for "Foo" to show up)
  315. # [12:13] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  316. # [12:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Get a better textContent spec'd :P
  317. # [12:14] <zcorpan> 1. Replace all descendant "img" elements with a new text node that has the .data set to the element's alt attribute. 2. Use textContent
  318. # [12:15] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@dyn63.roaming.few.vu.nl)
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  320. # [12:15] <jgraham> zcorpan: "Replace" is reeally the wrong word. You don't want to mutate the document :)
  321. # [12:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: for gsnedders' purpose, mutating the document seems ok, but he can implement it in another way that is equivalent :)
  322. # [12:17] <gsnedders> In Anolis I think I do actually copy the nodes already for TOC
  323. # [12:18] <hsivonen> hrm. the simples microdata to XML mapping I can think of would use OPMLish text-in-attributes antipattern
  324. # [12:19] <hsivonen> because XML element content can't distinguish between empty string and absent string
  325. # [12:20] * Joins: otrops (n=otrops@office1.neuxpower.com)
  326. # [12:22] * gsnedders laughs at Hixie getting a reference to Avenue Q in yet another email
  327. # [12:27] <zcorpan> jgraham: without mutation: The textContentWithAlt attribute, on getting, must return a concatenation of the data of all the descendant Text nodes, as well as the value of the alt attribute of all the descendant img elements, of the context node, in tree order.
  328. # [12:28] <zcorpan> where attributes are said to be in no namespace and elements in the xhtml namespace
  329. # [12:37] <zcorpan> hmm, document.body.onload doesn't seem to be the same as window.onload in gecko and webkit
  330. # [12:39] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  331. # [12:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: the live dom viewer seems to give js error in ie8
  332. # [12:41] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-158-206.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
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  334. # [12:43] <zcorpan> window.onload and document.body.onload seems to be the same in ie
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  339. # [12:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: I vote in favour of cross-document cross-reference support in Anolis
  340. # [12:59] <Philip`> (For http://philip.html5.org/docs/rdfa/ I hacked it so <span title="html5:resolve-a-url"> would go to the right place)
  341. # [12:59] <Philip`> ((i.e. http://whatwg.org/html5/#resolve-a-url, and then the multipage magic sends you to the correct page))
  342. # [12:59] <Philip`> (but I guess that's not a very general solution)
  343. # [13:00] <Philip`> (and it doesn't work for #linkTypes because the references get lowercased :-( )
  344. # [13:10] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  345. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm lazy, OK?
  346. # [13:12] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-158-206.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  347. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'll get around to it, OK? :P
  348. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: The two Anolis things I want to get done before I start at Opera are merging in biblio, and xdoc xref
  349. # [13:16] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-235-217.catv.broadband.hu) (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  352. # [13:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: will biblio use BibTeX microdata?
  353. # [13:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: I want microdata support in anolis
  354. # [13:16] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-235-217.catv.broadband.hu)
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  357. # [13:16] <jgraham> Not for any particular reason, just because
  358. # [13:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No, it uses refer, because I concluded BibTeX was impossible to sanely parse at all
  359. # [13:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but you can now store bib data in .html with sane parsing!
  360. # [13:17] <gsnedders> hsivonen: When I wrote it you couldn't :P
  361. # [13:17] * hsivonen mumbles something about off-the-shelf libraries being available for Java
  362. # [13:18] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if you had used Java, you could have used a .bib parser already there
  363. # [13:18] * gsnedders mumbles something about off-the-shelf libraries being unbelievably buggy in Python
  364. # [13:18] <gsnedders> I could've tried Jython, but I'm heavily reliant upon lxml, which being a CPython extension won't work
  365. # [13:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I don't know Java, which is another problem.
  366. # [13:21] <zcorpan> gsnedders: web dom core has xdoc xrefs to html5
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  374. # [13:22] * gsnedders goes back to working on solving diophantine equations
  375. # [13:23] <gsnedders> (well, linear Diophantine equations)
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  385. # [13:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: itemprop="http://example.org/foo/#"
  386. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: don't do that :-)
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  391. # [14:12] <annevk5> zcorpan, how does <frameset onload> work when there's multiple framesets?
  392. # [14:12] <annevk5> come to think of it, that question applies to <body onload> too
  393. # [14:13] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  394. # [14:14] <hsivonen> what boxes did I miss? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/web-stack/
  395. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I notice I don't have Atom or RSS there, but they aren't involved when content is loaded into a browsing context
  396. # [14:18] <annevk5> browsers do implement the sniffing rules so they sort of are
  397. # [14:19] <gsnedders> Yeah, but nothing else really does
  398. # [14:19] <gsnedders> Most feed readers ignore content-type
  399. # [14:21] <zcorpan> annevk5: the body or frameset element (or window object) that gets the attribute set last overrides
  400. # [14:23] <annevk5> also when the element is not inserted yet?
  401. # [14:23] * annevk5 wonders if this is defined
  402. # [14:24] <zcorpan> annevk5: yep. the spec just says "... and with corresponding content attributes and DOM attributes exposed on the body element"
  403. # [14:24] <zcorpan> (which should say "body and frameset elements")
  404. # [14:26] <zcorpan> when the attribute is set, it overrides the element's ownerDocument's window.onload
  405. # [14:26] <annevk5> seems weird for non inserted elements to have an effect
  406. # [14:27] * zcorpan points at topic
  407. # [14:27] <annevk5> meh
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  410. # [14:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is not quite obvious why HTML, SVG, etc. are one side or the other of DOM
  411. # [14:34] <jgraham> (they should sit inside DOM in some sense)
  412. # [14:35] <Philip`> Does anyone have cross-document cross-references that aren't referring to HTML5?
  413. # [14:36] * Quits: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  414. # [14:36] <jgraham> Philip`: You, surely?
  415. # [14:37] * Joins: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  416. # [14:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't have any cross-references like that
  417. # [14:37] <Philip`> I just have links
  418. # [14:37] <Philip`> which, uh, I suppose are kind of cross-references
  419. # [14:38] * Philip` presumes there's some good reason to have special syntax rather than just using <a href> everywhere
  420. # [14:39] <annevk5> yeah, from XHR2 to CORS
  421. # [14:39] <annevk5> HTML5 will have those too
  422. # [14:39] <annevk5> well, might
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  425. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: they sit on top of the DOM
  426. # [15:00] * Joins: sid0___ (n=sid0@59.94.142.56)
  427. # [15:00] * hsivonen considers putting Unicode under everything but bitmaps and video
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  431. # [15:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: In what sense?
  432. # [15:03] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  433. # [15:03] <jgraham> (It depends what you mean by HTML, SVG, etc.)
  434. # [15:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: in the sense HTML5 is a DOM language
  435. # [15:04] <annevk42> Philip`, the reason is not having to type <a href> everywhere
  436. # [15:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: and MathML, SVG and ARIA are in implementation practice, too
  437. # [15:05] <Philip`> annevk42: Typing <a href> doesn't seem like a great burden
  438. # [15:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sure. I think it is a bit confusing though, especially if you don't already have that wordview. In particular if you view HTML as a stream of bytes
  439. # [15:05] <Philip`> annevk42: but I guess typing the content of the href does
  440. # [15:06] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought the diagram was meant to represent how things are, rather than how some people misunderstand them to be
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  442. # [15:08] <jgraham> Philip`: If the goal is to educate those people then doing so in a way that causes confusion is not the best approach
  443. # [15:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Also, events are generally not exposed directly to the user
  444. # [15:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: what should I have between Events and the User?
  445. # [15:10] * Quits: annevk5 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  446. # [15:10] * hsivonen considers being politically incorrect and using labels Ogg and Theora
  447. # [15:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Javascript :)
  448. # [15:10] <hsivonen> perhaps adding WAV and PCM
  449. # [15:11] <jgraham> (Events seems to live within js/dom)
  450. # [15:11] * Quits: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  451. # [15:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: having JS between user and events doesn't seem right
  452. # [15:11] <hsivonen> should I put mouse/keyboard there?
  453. # [15:11] <hsivonen> USB?
  454. # [15:11] <hsivonen> gotta go
  455. # [15:12] <jgraham> Oh, I see. I wasn't thinking of the flow of information going that way
  456. # [15:12] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  457. # [15:12] <jgraham> Since it goes the opposite way everywhere else
  458. # [15:12] <jgraham> (this is the problem with the "stack" concept)
  459. # [15:13] <Philip`> Human Interface Devices?
  460. # [15:13] <annevk42> it's much more a graph than stack
  461. # [15:13] * Philip` realises that he doesn't know how to parse XML in Perl
  462. # [15:14] <Philip`> (except using XML::Simple, which is no good for parsing XHTML)
  463. # [15:15] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  464. # [15:15] <Philip`> Hmm, I wonder if XML::LibXML is sane
  465. # [15:18] <Philip`> Hmm, it seems to hang when parsing
  466. # [15:18] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  467. # [15:19] <Philip`> Oh, great, it's trying to download a zillion XHTML module DTDs
  468. # [15:19] * Quits: sid0__ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  469. # [15:19] <gsnedders> EPIC FAIL.
  470. # [15:20] <jgraham> Philip`: Surely you can turn that off?
  471. # [15:20] <Philip`> jgraham: I can once I know it's going to be doing that
  472. # [15:20] * Philip` apologies to the w3.org server hosting people for accidentally contributing to the DDOS against them
  473. # [15:21] <Philip`> *apologises
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  479. # [15:47] <mpilgrim> oh look, more false dichotomies from rubys: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0161.html
  480. # [15:48] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  481. # [15:48] * mpilgrim wonders if rubys ever read the mailing list archives before he was appointed from on high
  482. # [15:48] * gsnedders waits for mpilgrim to make another appearance on MLW's infamous blog
  483. # [15:49] <mpilgrim> the title of the spec was settled a long time ago
  484. # [15:51] * mpilgrim is inexplicably reminded of the classic "bungee boss" dilbert strip
  485. # [15:52] <mpilgrim> "Hi-I'm-Your-New-Boss-Let's-Change-Everything-Before-I-Get-Reassigned-Oops-Too-Late-Goodbye"
  486. # [15:52] <mpilgrim> sproing
  487. # [15:52] <mpilgrim> He was like a mentor to me
  488. # [15:52] <Dashiva> Do you expect he'll be reassigned?
  489. # [15:53] <mpilgrim> no one seems to know why or how he was assigned in the first place
  490. # [15:53] <mpilgrim> so i couldn't say
  491. # [15:53] <Philip`> mpilgrim: You should volunteer to be chair
  492. # [15:53] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  493. # [15:54] <Philip`> I can't imagine any ways in which that could fail to work
  494. # [15:54] <mpilgrim> lately the working group seems to have been infested with bungee trolls
  495. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Hmm… according to this textbook, -2\frac{dy}{dx}-1 = \frac{2(x+y)}{x} - 1
  496. # [15:56] <mpilgrim> "Hi-I-Care-Deeply-About-The-Future-Of-The-Web-Let's-Change-Everything-Before-I-Get-Exasperated-Oops-Too-Late-Goodbyte"
  497. # [15:56] <gsnedders> How is the first term not negative?
  498. # [15:56] <gsnedders> (on the RHS)
  499. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> "We specifically need people to put forward suggestions for @profile and @summary. If no such proposals are produced, such issues will be summarily closed." <-- noted for future reference
  500. # [15:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: How do you go from dx to x?
  501. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm not entirely sure about that either
  502. # [15:58] <Dashiva> Is that an identity or an equation to solve?
  503. # [15:58] * mpilgrim isn't sure rubys understands the biggest sticking point with the spec license
  504. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Identity
  505. # [15:59] <Dashiva> Then I'm with Philip`, it seems to be missing something
  506. # [16:02] * jgraham joins Philip` and Dashiva
  507. # [16:03] <Philip`> Fortunately nobody seems have cared about the bit in my document that says "This is blatant copyright infringement."
  508. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Or using the W3C stylesheet
  509. # [16:04] * jgraham wonders what mpilgrim thinks the biggest sticking point is
  510. # [16:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: That too
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  513. # [16:09] <gsnedders> http://secret.gsnedders.com/school/id.jpg
  514. # [16:09] <gsnedders> (This is blatant copyright infringement.)
  515. # [16:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: The question makes much more sense when we can see that dy/dx = -(x+y)/x
  516. # [16:11] <gsnedders> Oh, so they substitute for it
  517. # [16:11] <gsnedders> That makes sense
  518. # [16:11] <Philip`> (by rearranging the expression on the first line)
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  521. # [16:13] * jgraham rhetorically wonders if it is worth pointing out to Shelley that she doesn't get to define who "participated" in HTML 5
  522. # [16:14] * Dashiva rhetorically avoids answering
  523. # [16:14] <mpilgrim> jgraham: they don't own it. it isn't theirs.
  524. # [16:15] * jgraham doesn't know who is supposed to be owning anything
  525. # [16:15] <mpilgrim> traditionally, choosing a license is reserved for the copyright owner
  526. # [16:15] <jgraham> Oh, I follow now
  527. # [16:15] <Philip`> Doesn't the W3C traditionally own the copyright on the specs it publishes?
  528. # [16:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: The W3C host sites do, not W3C
  529. # [16:16] <Philip`> "Copyright ©1997-1999 W3C® (MIT, INRIA, Keio), All Rights Reserved.", "Copyright © 2009 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio), All Rights Reserved.", etc
  530. # [16:18] <mpilgrim> Philip`: traditionally, yes
  531. # [16:27] <gsnedders> http://secret.gsnedders.com/school/dif2.jpg
  532. # [16:27] <gsnedders> is that right?
  533. # [16:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: Looks about right to me
  534. # [16:31] <Philip`> though you could have cancelled out the 2s much earlier, to save a lot of writing :-)
  535. # [16:32] <gsnedders> That is true.
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  547. # [17:10] <mpilgrim> i love how rubys seems to think that there is a stable of potential spec editors just chomping at the bit to be given a chance to publish
  548. # [17:10] <mpilgrim> we've been desperately trying to find editors for years
  549. # [17:11] <mpilgrim> nobody ever steps up and sticks with it long enough to matter
  550. # [17:12] * mpilgrim notes, somewhat hypocritically, that he is not volunteering either
  551. # [17:13] <jgraham> mpilgrim: You seem to be assuming naivity which is not necesssarily true
  552. # [17:13] <Philip`> I don't think he thinks there is, which is why he includes the condition that if there aren't editors for a document then the group will drop that document, rather than saying the group will block on issues that don't have the support of an editor
  553. # [17:13] * Joins: sid0___ (n=sid0@59.94.133.90)
  554. # [17:15] <mpilgrim> jgraham: well, like the rest of us, i sincerely hope that he DOES have a stable of potential spec editors
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  558. # [17:16] <mpilgrim> though i think it's a bit cruel to make the call for editors without acknowledging how much work it will be
  559. # [17:16] <jgraham> mpilgrim: I interpreted his email more as "if you want to push an idea that you can't get someone else to spec you can spec it yourself (or stop complaining)"
  560. # [17:16] <mpilgrim> otherwise we'll just end up with more orphaned drafts
  561. # [17:17] * mpilgrim rereads it
  562. # [17:18] <mpilgrim> i think we're both right
  563. # [17:18] <mpilgrim> it's "put up or shut up"
  564. # [17:18] <gsnedders> That's how I read it.
  565. # [17:19] <mpilgrim> but it's not as if we've been overwhelmed with a plethora of competently edited specs that we're ignoring
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  567. # [17:20] <annevk42> I wish we had more editors for Web specs
  568. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> perhaps the spec fairy will visit us
  569. # [17:22] <jgraham> Is the spec fairy the one who gives you money wwhen you give her a spec?
  570. # [17:22] <jgraham> Because that is another issue...
  571. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> hmm, good point, the analogy doesn't work
  572. # [17:23] <mpilgrim> anyway, if rubys can get people to put in the work and produce a half-decent spec, more power to him
  573. # [17:23] <jgraham> (actually I think it sort of works for one of the problems which is that there just aren't a lot of people willing to pay for decent web specs, despite the huge value that they have)
  574. # [17:24] <jgraham> (it is a tragedy of the commons type thing where it is in everyone's interest for someone else to do it)
  575. # [17:24] <jgraham> (so Hixie is one of the very few people paid to edit specs full time)
  576. # [17:27] <mpilgrim> actually, most w3c groups are composed entirely of employees of member companies
  577. # [17:27] <mpilgrim> who are presumably paid to collaborate/discuss/edit their respective specs
  578. # [17:27] <gsnedders> Just not FT
  579. # [17:28] <jgraham> In many cases not just not FT but not enough of the time to make a good result
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  581. # [17:28] <mpilgrim> not sure about that either
  582. # [17:28] <mpilgrim> at ibm there was a whole department of people who did standards work full-time
  583. # [17:29] <mpilgrim> but i agree with the fundamental point, that spec editing is hard and few people have the time + energy + resources + expertise to do it
  584. # [17:30] <Philip`> + motivation
  585. # [17:30] <jgraham> If Hixie an't being paid to work full time on HTML 5 it would have died da long time ago
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  587. # [17:31] <Philip`> (I guess there are people who could edit specs but don't care enough about it to do so)
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  589. # [17:33] <Philip`> jgraham: Sounds like an unsustainable model for spec development
  590. # [17:34] <jgraham> Philip`: Right, but what else do you suggest?
  591. # [17:34] <Philip`> jgraham: No idea
  592. # [17:35] <jgraham> Unless you can make enough money from the spec itself to hire editors. But that doesn't seem likely
  593. # [17:36] <Philip`> It seems like companies don't mind paying their own employees to write their own specs
  594. # [17:36] <Philip`> e.g. OOXML
  595. # [17:36] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  596. # [17:37] <Philip`> but it seems much harder to get them to contribute similarly to open collaborative processes
  597. # [17:38] <mpilgrim> adsense for specs
  598. # [17:38] <mpilgrim> you heard it here first
  599. # [17:38] <Philip`> You could say that anybody writing a web page using your spec MUST provide a link to the spec
  600. # [17:39] <Philip`> Then you'll get massive PageRank and can sell links
  601. # [17:39] <mpilgrim> presumably that would work on all specs except rel=nofollow
  602. # [17:39] <mpilgrim> ;)
  603. # [17:40] <Philip`> The problem is the editor would need up-front funding to develop the spec, and would only get any return once it's finished and widely used
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  605. # [17:44] <mpilgrim> spec on spec
  606. # [17:45] <Philip`> There's always the ISO model of charging people to download the spec
  607. # [17:46] <jgraham> Philip`: I may not have mentioned that due to it being evil and wrong
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  609. # [17:46] <Philip`> Also you could hide some patented technologies in the spec, and then sue Microsoft for a billion dollars a few years later
  610. # [17:47] <mpilgrim> submarine specs
  611. # [17:47] <Philip`> (See e.g. MP3)
  612. # [17:47] <mpilgrim> pretty sure we have rules against that
  613. # [17:47] <annevk42> patent policy doesn't protect against that if the spec writer is just a person
  614. # [17:48] <annevk42> at least, I believe it doesn't
  615. # [17:48] <mpilgrim> as opposed to spec writers who are superhuman?
  616. # [17:48] <mpilgrim> i'm confused
  617. # [17:48] <annevk42> spec writers employed by legal entities who could be counter sued
  618. # [17:48] <mpilgrim> no, i mean the w3c has rules against that
  619. # [17:48] <Philip`> Patent policy doesn't help if the patent is owned by somebody outside the W3C
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  621. # [17:49] <gsnedders> s/W3C/WG/
  622. # [17:49] <Philip`> so the editor could get his/her friend to patent the technology and then sue Microsoft
  623. # [17:49] <mpilgrim> pretty sure we have rules against that too, but whatever
  624. # [17:50] <Philip`> There may be rules, but you can break the rules
  625. # [17:50] <mpilgrim> oh dear god: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0170.html
  626. # [17:50] <Philip`> If the punishment is getting thrown out of the W3C, but you get a billion dollars, it's pretty good overall
  627. # [17:51] <mpilgrim> it's really amazing that the w3c ever publishes anything at all
  628. # [17:53] <Philip`> Most WGs aren't as objectionable as the HTML WG
  629. # [17:57] <mpilgrim> most standards aren't as important as HTML 5 either
  630. # [17:57] <mpilgrim> and most of the ones that are, aren't standardized in public
  631. # [17:59] <jgraham> There seems to be an awful lot of "over my dead body" around publication issues in the HTMLWG
  632. # [17:59] <jgraham> which doesn't bode well
  633. # [18:00] <beowulf> didn't the guy who raised the objection to the design principals quit the wg?
  634. # [18:03] <Philip`> Philip Taylor?
  635. # [18:03] <Philip`> If it was him, then yes
  636. # [18:04] <hober> hsivonen: mind if I use (with attribution) your web stack diagram in a blog post of mine?
  637. # [18:06] <annevk4> jgraham, there's not too much "over my dead body" considering the size of the group
  638. # [18:07] <annevk4> jgraham, I don't think the people who disagree strongly with certain decisions has grown since the start
  639. # [18:08] <annevk4> I listened to one of the TED talks yesterday where the speaker suggested that if nobody disagreed with what you're doing you're doing it wrong.
  640. # [18:09] <Philip`> I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement
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  642. # [18:11] <annevk4> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/lang/eng/seth_godin_on_the_tribes_we_lead.html
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  647. # [18:13] <annevk4> It does resonate with me that if you try to change the status quo people will disagree.
  648. # [18:13] <annevk4> And it's pretty clear we try to change the status quo
  649. # [18:13] <gsnedders> I thought most of what we did was standardizing the status quo
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  651. # [18:14] <Philip`> Lack of disagreement might just mean that nobody knows what you're doing
  652. # [18:14] <beowulf> or it might mean you're being given a lot of slack in the hope something might happen
  653. # [18:14] <Philip`> And when you reach an extreme where everybody disagrees with you, you're almost certainly wrong
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  655. # [18:15] <annevk4> I don't really see any of that applying to HTML5
  656. # [18:15] <Philip`> so it's not a particularly helpful guideline, since it doesn't tell you whether you're experiencing too much disagreement or too little
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  659. # [18:18] <annevk4> Philip`, it seems pretty evident that as far as the standards community is concerned people are aware of HTML5
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  661. # [18:18] <annevk4> Philip`, that said, I'm not sure it should be used as guideline
  662. # [18:19] <gsnedders> http://rossching.com/little-bribes/ is really impressive
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  669. # [18:55] <jgraham> annevk4: If you look at people who have been actively involved, there seems to be quite a lot of people making objections and not being amenable to discussion or compromise
  670. # [18:56] <annevk4> My perception is different. Maybe it's worth gathering data? Then again, not sure what we could usefully do with the outcome.
  671. # [18:57] <archtech> Have you guys seen the ECMA5 presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq4FpMe6cRs
  672. # [18:57] <jgraham> archtech: Not yet but I plan to watch it
  673. # [18:57] <archtech> I like the juxtaposition of HTML5 and ECMAScript5 :) The version where things finally are well done ;)
  674. # [18:57] <jgraham> annevk4: I expect I am being too negative
  675. # [18:58] <jgraham> It wouldn't be the first time
  676. # [18:58] <jgraham> It will be interesting to see what happens when we try to transition to LC
  677. # [19:00] * gsnedders thinks we need DOM5 and CSS5 then Web5 will be complete!
  678. # [19:00] <Philip`> Hmm, rdfQuery throws an exception if you have <link rel=bogus>
  679. # [19:00] <Philip`> which isn't very forward compatible
  680. # [19:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: Don't forget HTTP5
  681. # [19:00] <gsnedders> And TCP/IP5
  682. # [19:00] <Philip`> Also we need User5
  683. # [19:01] <gsnedders> And Earth5
  684. # [19:01] <annevk4> and URL5 etc.
  685. # [19:04] <beowulf> and IE5. No, wait...
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  706. # [20:01] <archtech> In the presentation we learn arguments object is removed, but nothing is there to replace it.
  707. # [20:01] <archtech> We have no default params, so weird.
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  709. # [20:05] <inimino> archtech: the arguments object isn't removed
  710. # [20:06] <archtech> inimino, I misunderstood, can you please tell me what is their strategy?
  711. # [20:06] <inimino> I haven't seen the presentation so I'm not sure what was being referred to
  712. # [20:07] <inimino> but have no fear, 'arguments' is alive and well in ES5
  713. # [20:08] <archtech> inimino, to clarify myself, what the presentation seems to say is, it will be in ES5 no-strict mode, but any call to arguments, arguments.callee, arguments.caller will throw immediately in strict mode
  714. # [20:08] <inimino> I'll check
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  716. # [20:09] <archtech> javascript
  717. # [20:09] <archtech> ops
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  721. # [20:13] <inimino> archtech: arguments.caller and .callee will now throw
  722. # [20:14] <archtech> Arguments will not?
  723. # [20:14] <inimino> no
  724. # [20:14] <archtech> I see, thanks.
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  726. # [20:15] <archtech> Now if only they agreed on private/protected flags for properties as well ;)
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  734. # [20:35] <Hixie> jgraham: if i wasn't being paid to work on html5, my social life would be far less interesting, but html5 would still be happening
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  736. # [20:38] <Philip`> So Google is effectively paying for your social life?
  737. # [20:38] <Philip`> Sounds like a good trick you've got worked out there
  738. # [20:38] <Hixie> it's a pretty awesome trick
  739. # [20:41] * annevk42 more or less catched up with email and is wondering about XMLHttpRequest fetch again
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  757. # [21:28] <jgraham> Hixie: I would prefer it if we didn't have to do that experiment :)
  758. # [21:31] <mpilgrim> oh look, john foliot is going on again about "experts"
  759. # [21:33] <mpilgrim> the WCAG WG was chartered on february 5, 2004: http://www.w3.org/2004/04/wcag-charter
  760. # [21:34] <mpilgrim> on december 11, 2008, they published "Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0": http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/
  761. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> it includes an entire section on "Using alt attributes on img elements": http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/H37.html
  762. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> which lists a grand total of 2 examples
  763. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> only 1 of which contains actual markup
  764. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> HTML 5 has 14 sections devoted to using alt attributes on img elements:
  765. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 1. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-link-or-button-containing-nothing-but-the-image
  766. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 2. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-phrase-or-paragraph-with-an-alternative-graphical-representation:-charts,-diagrams,-graphs,-maps,-illustrations
  767. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 3. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-short-phrase-or-label-with-an-alternative-graphical-representation:-icons,-logos
  768. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 4. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#text-that-has-been-rendered-to-a-graphic-for-typographical-effect
  769. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 5. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-graphical-representation-of-some-of-the-surrounding-text
  770. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 6. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-purely-decorative-image-that-doesn't-add-any-information
  771. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 7. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-group-of-images-that-form-a-single-larger-picture-with-no-links
  772. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 8. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-group-of-images-that-form-a-single-larger-picture-with-links
  773. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 9. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#a-key-part-of-the-content
  774. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> 10. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#an-image-not-intended-for-the-user
  775. # [21:37] <mpilgrim> 11. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#an-image-in-an-e-mail-or-private-document-intended-for-a-specific-person-who-is-known-to-be-able-to-view-images
  776. # [21:37] <mpilgrim> 12. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#general-guidelines
  777. # [21:37] <mpilgrim> 13. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#guidance-for-markup-generators
  778. # [21:37] <mpilgrim> 14. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers
  779. # [21:37] <annevk42> So reading WCAG-TECHS and looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/images/parsing-model-overview.png I wonder why John thinks the alternative text is too long
  780. # [21:38] <annevk42> as WCAG-TECHS clearly says to include the words from the image in the alternative text
  781. # [21:38] * krijnh wonders if mpilgrim would also paste all this if this channel wasn't logged :)
  782. # [21:38] <Philip`> On the other hand, the WCAG section on alt is readable, whereas the HTML 5 version is a stupidly large and complex amount of content that will just get totally ignored and/or misunderstood
  783. # [21:38] <Philip`> See e.g. http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019631.html
  784. # [21:38] <mpilgrim> with a total of 32 examples
  785. # [21:39] <mpilgrim> "experts" are valuable if-and-only-if they share their expertise
  786. # [21:39] <mpilgrim> the accessibility "experts" -- who were given ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to share their expertise -- failed to do so
  787. # [21:39] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@w229.z065106072.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net)
  788. # [21:40] <mpilgrim> so they don't get to complain that somebody came in later to fill the GAPING VOID OF KNOWLEDGE that they left
  789. # [21:45] <Philip`> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5 - "The X3D Working Group will participate in the HTML Working Group for the purpose of best integrating X3D with HTML."
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  795. # [22:07] * annevk42 wonders how http://www.w3.org/mid/000601c9d984$a79d63b0$f6d82b10$@org will work out
  796. # [22:07] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-514195f5aa8513b7)
  797. # [22:21] * jgraham wonders if turning all bibliography properties into URIs won't destroy usability
  798. # [22:22] <jgraham> s/all/some/
  799. # [22:22] <Philip`> Abbreviate the URIs with a "biblio:" prefix and it'll be perfectly usable
  800. # [22:22] <jgraham> :p
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  802. # [22:23] * jgraham remembers that he tried to use zotero once but it seemed so complex that he didn't bother to learn to use it properly
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  805. # [22:26] <Philip`> http://www.librocket.com/ - "HTML/CSS Game Interface Middleware" - "libRocket uses the time-tested open standards XHTML1.0 and CSS2.0 (while borrowing features from HTML5 and CSS3)"
  806. # [22:26] * Philip` can't find any references to what features were borrowed from HTML5
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  809. # [22:37] <tantek> mpilgrim, so what you're really saying is that "experts" are valuable if-and-only-if they make their expertise accessible to others.
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  814. # [22:58] <mpilgrim> tantek: haha. but seriously, i still firmly believe what i wrote in 2004: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs
  815. # [22:58] <mpilgrim> "experts" are morons who write about their mistakes
  816. # [22:59] <mpilgrim> there isn't anything intrinsic to being an expert
  817. # [22:59] <mpilgrim> you're only as "expert" as what you share
  818. # [23:01] <tantek> heh - yes, classic essay
  819. # [23:02] <tantek> mpilgrim - and sharing in email is not particularly accessible IMHO - so if expertise isn't shared on a web page with a permalink (email archives notwithstanding because they don't search/index well), then it's not sufficiently shared.
  820. # [23:03] <tantek> mpilgrim - the IE5Mac/Tasman team pretty much followed the "Angels" description in your essay when developing/shipping IE5Mac
  821. # [23:03] <tantek> (modulo some interpretation of "thoroughly" - not sure how much is enough there, right?)
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  823. # [23:11] <mpilgrim> IE5/Mac totally rocked
  824. # [23:11] <mpilgrim> for its time
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  827. # [23:32] <annevk42> o_O http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=988#c9
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  829. # [23:39] <gsnedders> :o
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The end :)