/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 21 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  34. # [02:06] <roc> I wonder if that X3D activity is a response to canvas3d
  35. # [02:06] <roc> ah yes
  36. # [02:06] <olliej> roc: hehehe
  37. # [02:07] <roc> yippee
  38. # [02:07] <olliej> roc: what is x3d?
  39. # [02:07] <roc> it's like the SVG of 3D
  40. # [02:07] <roc> except, I suspect, worse
  41. # [02:07] <roc> I think it evolved from VRML
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  43. # [02:08] <olliej> roc: heheh
  44. # [02:08] <olliej> worse the svg?
  45. # [02:08] <olliej> wow
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  49. # [02:14] <Philip`> roc: It is indeed evolved from VRML
  50. # [02:15] <Philip`> You can express it in 'classic' VRML syntax as well as in XML syntax
  51. # [02:15] <roc> excellent
  52. # [02:15] <roc> two syntaxes for a format that's not even really deployedyet
  53. # [02:16] <Philip`> There's quite a number of independent implementations
  54. # [02:16] <Philip`> If you're careful, you can even write a scene that works in at least two implementations
  55. # [02:17] <Philip`> (It's also an ISO standard)
  56. # [02:17] <Hixie> aaah, why are we talking about x3d
  57. # [02:17] * Hixie tries to get to a safe place
  58. # [02:18] <Philip`> I'm not sure X3D is particularly crazy or anything
  59. # [02:18] <Hixie> but why did it come up!
  60. # [02:18] <Hixie> actually i know nothing about 3d
  61. # [02:18] <Philip`> Because I saw http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5
  62. # [02:18] <Hixie> though people seem to keep asking me about stuff to do with it
  63. # [02:19] <Philip`> (and because somebody emailed me about the X3D-in-canvas3d prototype I wrote ~16 months ago)
  64. # [02:19] <Hixie> jesus, everybody and their dog wants to put their vocabulary in html5
  65. # [02:19] <Philip`> Hixie: You've added lots of other things into HTML5 you know nothing about :-)
  66. # [02:20] <Hixie> i'm confident in saying that i know more about everything in html5 than i do about 3d anything
  67. # [02:20] <Hixie> but that admittedly doesn't raise the bar very high
  68. # [02:20] <Philip`> 3D is just like 2D, except in a different direction
  69. # [02:21] <Hixie> 2D doesn't have things like lights
  70. # [02:21] <Hixie> and cameras
  71. # [02:21] <Philip`> Depending on your level of abstraction, 3D doesn't have those either :-)
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  74. # [02:22] <Philip`> Cameras are just transformation matrices, and lights are just vectors you feed into your shaders, and it's easy when you copy-and-paste the scary maths from somewhere
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  76. # [02:22] <Hixie> woosh
  77. # [02:22] <Philip`> I'm sure it's easier to understand than <keygen> :-)
  78. # [02:23] <Hixie> actually <keygen> was easy to understand, it just wasn't documented
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  80. # [02:24] <Hixie> i wonder how we should allow people to annotate their HTML documents with a datetime representing the last substantial update
  81. # [02:24] <Hixie> (or if we should not)
  82. # [02:25] <Philip`> Sounds like a job for the microdata hammer
  83. # [02:25] <tantek> one existing solution: they could use hAtom to markup the page as an entry with an "updated" datetime.
  84. # [02:27] <Hixie> i don't want to make html5 hardcode any magical class values; last time i did that i got yelled at so much it had to be removed :-)
  85. # [02:28] * Philip` would wonder what a "substantial update" is, but decides instead to go to bed
  86. # [02:28] <tantek> no need to hardcode any magical class values in html5 - simply don't bother to solve the problem in html5 and let people use the existing solution
  87. # [02:28] <Hixie> this is actually part of some other problem i'm solving
  88. # [02:29] <Hixie> (namely adding Atom as one of the formats you can export to in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#converting-html-to-other-formats )
  89. # [02:35] <roc> I was quite clearly to say "not really deployed" instead of "not implemented"
  90. # [02:35] <roc> I was quite *careful*
  91. # [02:35] <roc> I wish I knew another language so I could pretend English wasn't my first language
  92. # [02:35] <Hixie> i wonder if the x3d-in-html5 effort is related to the people who asked me if collada could be put in html5 <canvas> recently
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  94. # [02:36] <Hixie> if <article pubdate=""> gives the datetime that the article was published, what would be a good attribute name for the datetime that the article was last modified?
  95. # [02:37] <Hixie> (or alternatively, what would be good attribute names for published datetime and updated datetime respectively; it doesn't have to be pubdate)
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  99. # [02:44] <Hixie> eh screw it, i'll just have only pubdate
  100. # [02:44] <Hixie> oh hey, updates can already be annoted using <ins>/<del>
  101. # [02:45] <Hixie> so i can just get the date from that
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  157. # [08:13] <hsivonen> hober: using the diagram is ok
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  167. # [08:59] <Hixie> anything interesting going on in the world of web specs?
  168. # [09:00] <othermaciej> you tell us!
  169. # [09:02] <Hixie> too many other things going on today to get around to spec work sadly
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  172. # [09:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you add the DC creator stuff just because you could or was it in response to a use case?
  173. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: it violates theoretical purity
  174. # [09:12] <Hixie> just because i could
  175. # [09:12] <Hixie> it does?
  176. # [09:12] <Hixie> i was trying to convey as many of the document's semantics as possible
  177. # [09:12] <Hixie> so that the conversion loses as little as possible
  178. # [09:12] <othermaciej> what theoretical purity?
  179. # [09:12] <Hixie> (it still loses a lot)
  180. # [09:13] <hsivonen> yes. If you build an object model for microdata that contains enough data to output into all the outputs, you need to have an isAddressThatAppliesToDocument flag on items
  181. # [09:14] <Hixie> the RDF output is not about microdata
  182. # [09:14] <hsivonen> oh?
  183. # [09:14] <Hixie> it's a conversion of HTML to RDF
  184. # [09:14] <Hixie> which includes microdata
  185. # [09:14] <Hixie> but is not limited to it
  186. # [09:15] <Hixie> the Atom output i'm doing now barely mentioned microdata at all
  187. # [09:15] <Hixie> mentions, i should say
  188. # [09:15] <hsivonen> hmm.
  189. # [09:15] <Hixie> the vCard, vEvent, and BibTeX outputs are microdata-specific
  190. # [09:15] <Hixie> maybe i should reorganise that section to separate them
  191. # [09:15] <hsivonen> I was thinking of doing SAX-to-model builder
  192. # [09:16] <hsivonen> and a model to XML-represented-as-SAX converter
  193. # [09:16] <hsivonen> that could feed into a RELAX NG validator whose error messages have been munged
  194. # [09:16] <Hixie> sounds useful
  195. # [09:17] <hsivonen> (retaining Locator data, of course)
  196. # [09:17] <Hixie> i can split the RDF output into two, one for microdata and one for documents
  197. # [09:17] <Hixie> (with the output of the latter being a superset of the former's)
  198. # [09:18] <hsivonen> It think rel / <meta name> stuff should be considered part of microdata and be reflected in the JSON output
  199. # [09:18] <Hixie> why?
  200. # [09:18] <hsivonen> because we can :-)
  201. # [09:18] <Hixie> microdata is just items
  202. # [09:18] <Hixie> because it's simpler
  203. # [09:19] <Hixie> simpler > possible
  204. # [09:19] <hsivonen> seriously, though, it makes it possible to use JSON as a document metadata conveyor without having to resort to RDF
  205. # [09:19] <Hixie> (microdata isn't metadata, it's just data)
  206. # [09:20] <Hixie> i don't mind adding the metadata to the JSON stuff
  207. # [09:20] <Hixie> though that affects what gets dragged and dropped
  208. # [09:20] <Hixie> which i'm not sure is what we want
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  211. # [09:24] <Hixie> hmm... <h1> or <title> for atom:title?
  212. # [09:25] <Hixie> i'm thinking <h1>, with <hgroup><h2> being atom:subtitle
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  216. # [09:42] <Philip`> Hixie: Seems probably unlikely that people from the X3D community would be asking for COLLADA support, since they're completely separate (and partly overlapping) technologies
  217. # [09:42] <Hixie> ah
  218. # [09:42] <Hixie> i wonder why 3d is suddenly so important
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  220. # [09:43] <Philip`> (As I understand it, they're sort of competing technologies in certain aspects, but the X3D people now recognise that COLLADA is popular and isn't going to go away so they're trying to live with it rather than fight against it, but it's not what they really want to support)
  221. # [09:44] <Philip`> 3D has always been important :-)
  222. # [09:44] <Hixie> collada, from what i understand, is a disaster
  223. # [09:44] <Philip`> but now the technology is capable of supporting it decently (perhaps)
  224. # [09:45] <Hixie> if i'm not mistaken, collada is about 15 different technologies all jammed into one spec because nobody could agree to remove their proposal
  225. # [09:45] <Philip`> I've used COLLADA (for loading models and animations into a game engine), and it worked quite nicely for what I wanted
  226. # [09:46] <Philip`> It's not intended for connecting arbitrary pairs of producers and consumers, like HTML - it's intended to fit between specific tools in a pipeline, and the tools can pick which subset to support based on what features they want
  227. # [09:48] <Philip`> e.g. you'll export a COLLADA file from 3ds Max, and run it through a custom tool that converts it into some efficient custom geometry format, and maybe have some other tool to extract texture references, and another to get some physics data, and whatever
  228. # [09:49] <Philip`> (and maybe some reusable tools in the middle to optimise geometry or something)
  229. # [09:51] <Philip`> and so you can just write tools specifically for the dialect that's generated at the beginning of the process, and you don't need to worry about any unused features because they're irrelevant until you want to start using them
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  231. # [09:54] <Hixie> Philip`: since i've been asked to put it in html, that's the environment in which i was considering its appropriateness
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  233. # [10:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you actually mean to use a single 'author' or 'editor' field in the HTML version of BibTeX
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  236. # [10:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's horribly ugly
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  238. # [10:00] <Hixie> i meant to use whatever bibtex uses
  239. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: comparend to having multiple and munging to and from .bib's " AND "
  240. # [10:01] <Hixie> i was originally going to do that but it means hard-coding them in the conversion
  241. # [10:01] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  242. # [10:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: I suggest special casing those two, because .bib's intra-field format makes no sense for DRY HTML
  243. # [10:01] <Hixie> which means hard-coding a non-localised string
  244. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: consider it a reserved word in .bib
  245. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: letting 'and' leak into HTML content in whatever language is worse, much worse
  246. # [10:02] <Hixie> i guess
  247. # [10:02] * Hixie isn't a fan of bibtex
  248. # [10:02] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  249. # [10:03] <Hixie> i wish there was a better vocabulary to use here
  250. # [10:03] <Hixie> but the alternatives are all ten times worse
  251. # [10:03] <hsivonen> particularly when foo and bar and baz doesn't make DRY sense even in English
  252. # [10:03] <Hixie> Refer for example has the worst vocabulary terms ever
  253. # [10:03] <Hixie> and most of the others have much more domain-specific usage
  254. # [10:03] <Hixie> or no usage to speak of
  255. # [10:08] <hsivonen> the microdata representation sucks big time for format like "Doe, J.", but that's because munging of personal names sucks
  256. # [10:08] <hsivonen> and people should just put "John Doe" in their bibliographies
  257. # [10:10] <Philip`> Hixie: Yeah, it does seem pretty inappropriate as a general standard model/animation format
  258. # [10:11] <Philip`> The whole being-written-in-XML thing makes it inappropriate for content delivery anyway
  259. # [10:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: thanks for the bug
  260. # [10:12] <Hixie> collada is xml?
  261. # [10:12] <Philip`> Uh... Yes
  262. # [10:12] <Philip`> I guess you didn't look at it in any detail :-p
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  264. # [10:15] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-158-206.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  265. # [10:16] <Philip`> (It's not terrible in terms of space/time efficiency, since the main issue is just that it stores numbers as space-separate strings of decimals rather than as 32-bit floats, but it's (intentionally) not great)
  266. # [10:16] <Philip`> s/e/ed/
  267. # [10:17] <Hixie> i said i knew nothing!
  268. # [10:17] <Hixie> wow i had no idea collada was xml
  269. # [10:17] <Hixie> isn't that, like, dumb
  270. # [10:17] <Hixie> surely 3d modelling is one of those things that you'd want a binary format for
  271. # [10:18] <Philip`> There are lots of binary format, but they're almost universally awful
  272. # [10:18] <Philip`> e.g. the only widely-supported one is 3DS, which comes from the days of DOS and is limited to 64K vertices and supports almost no features
  273. # [10:18] <Philip`> and there are some newer proprietary binary ones
  274. # [10:20] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-40-244.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  275. # [10:20] <Philip`> The aim was to make something extensible and relatively easy to understand, and not to make something that's as efficient as possible (because everyone will have different rendering engines and want their own custom formats for that), and XML was a better way to achieve that than a new binary format
  276. # [10:21] <Hixie> fair enough
  277. # [10:23] <othermaciej> 3D canvas will probably get implementation traction
  278. # [10:23] <othermaciej> although I don't quite get why Mozilla decided to take it to Khronos instead of a Web standards group
  279. # [10:24] <Philip`> Possibly because they need involvement from hardware/driver developers in order to make it work securly, and all those people are in Khronos
  280. # [10:24] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-235-217.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  281. # [10:24] <Philip`> s//e/
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  286. # [10:47] <Hixie> ok bed time nn
  287. # [10:47] <annevk42> g'night
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  298. # [11:17] <zcorpan_> if you remove the "green", you still have "left border", so even ignoring markup the requirements are met
  299. # [11:18] * Joins: sid0__ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  300. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> i guess i would just be contributing noise if i pointed that out on the list
  301. # [11:19] * Quits: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  302. # [11:20] <zcorpan_> though i wonder if john would be satisfied if the border was changed from green to black
  303. # [11:22] <zcorpan_> oh maciej already said so
  304. # [11:22] <annevk42> I doubt borders are exposed to e.g. screen readers though
  305. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> annevk42: the requirements didn't say anything about that
  306. # [11:24] <annevk42> Private email suggests that's not a concern :/
  307. # [11:24] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  308. # [11:24] <Philip`> The quote from WCAG makes it sound like you don't have to actually make it work in e.g. screen readers, you can just convey the information with markup (and presumably class="example" is markup) and it's somebody else's problem if they can't actually access that information through their UA
  309. # [11:26] <zcorpan_> "WCAG 2 - 1.4.1 Use of Color: Color is not used as the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element. (Level A);" - this is met, there is still a border as a visual means
  310. # [11:26] <othermaciej> the WCAG rules lawyering is completely off point
  311. # [11:26] <annevk42> That was my point, yes. Nobody has replied to that yet as far as I can tell.
  312. # [11:26] <annevk42> There are quite a lot of specifications that use class="example" in this way...
  313. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think mpilgrim had a blog post about that kind of accessibility enablement
  314. # [11:26] <othermaciej> the way examples are indicated is indeed inadequate, but for reasons that have nothing to do with John's complaint
  315. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> "WCAG 1 - 2.1 Ensure that all information conveyed with color is also available without color, for example from context or markup. [Priority 1];" - there is no information conveyed with color. information is conveyed with a border
  316. # [11:27] <annevk42> E.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/
  317. # [11:27] <othermaciej> also it is lame of him to complain about something I myself noticed and proposed to change
  318. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> "and Section 508 § 1194.22 c) Web pages shall be designed so that all information conveyed with color is also available without color, for example from context or markup." - same here
  319. # [11:27] <othermaciej> and to give some huge lecture on how bad it is
  320. # [11:27] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) ("even marathon runners need to nap / i ran all the way there and then ran back / but back was gone...")
  321. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> so WCAG2 is met, and WCAG1 and section 508 are not appliciable
  322. # [11:28] <othermaciej> annevk42: the way examples render there looks much better to me
  323. # [11:28] <othermaciej> like the way they say "Example"
  324. # [11:28] <annevk42> othermaciej, that's a matter of style, not substance, in this case
  325. # [11:28] <othermaciej> annevk42: I would say rather that it's a matter of style, not markup
  326. # [11:28] <othermaciej> but in this case the style affects the substance
  327. # [11:29] <othermaciej> b/c I think in retrospect it was unclear to people that the examples are just examples, and separate from the statements of principle
  328. # [11:29] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  329. # [11:29] <annevk42> fair enough
  330. # [11:30] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: in some sections the examples are clearly marked as such, e.g. "2.2.1. Examples"
  331. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> the first two batches of examples
  332. # [11:32] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: good point! maybe using that style in most places would be sufficient
  333. # [11:32] <othermaciej> also, sadly, some of the design principles are still missing examples
  334. # [11:33] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@s5590d015.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  335. # [11:33] <annevk42> I think you rewrote the first two principles to be more lengthy and then the group decided to publish
  336. # [11:33] <othermaciej> also I wonder if perhaps "Evolution Not Revolution" could be retitled "Incremental Improvement" and thus made to encapsulate Hixie's proposed "Baby Steps" principle
  337. # [11:33] <othermaciej> yeah
  338. # [11:33] <othermaciej> this document could use some polish
  339. # [11:33] <othermaciej> the thing is, certain parties may turn any revision process into a rathole
  340. # [11:33] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-203-152.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  341. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I re-read the votes on the invidual principles
  342. # [11:33] <annevk42> s/may/will/ I think
  343. # [11:34] <othermaciej> and found that of all the objections, nearly all came from a few people who in turn objected to more than half the principles
  344. # [11:34] <othermaciej> so basically we have a set of Design Principles that most of the group agrees on, and then a handful of people who object to almost all of them
  345. # [11:34] <othermaciej> it's hard to see how to increase consensus in that light
  346. # [11:34] <othermaciej> you could water down the documet, but then the many people who largely agree with it could object
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  349. # [11:37] <gsnedders> Hixie wanted visible (symbolic, IIRC) marks for things like examples, created by Anolis. I haven't done that yet.
  350. # [11:37] <annevk42> ah, so John Foliot can blame you!
  351. # [11:38] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE2d39.bae.pppool.de)
  352. # [11:38] <Philip`> Only if the design principles document uses Anolis
  353. # [11:38] <gsnedders> Oh, we're talking about a11y of the design principles doc now?
  354. # [11:39] * gsnedders is way behind on the ml
  355. # [11:39] <Philip`> I hope we are, otherwise I'm totally lost
  356. # [11:40] <annevk42> I thought it was about both
  357. # [11:41] * Philip` shrugs
  358. # [11:43] <zcorpan_> hmm, the headings are blue
  359. # [11:44] <zcorpan_> wonder if that's also a violation of wcag?
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  367. # [12:06] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  368. # [12:09] <hsivonen> whoa! role=math really made it into ARIA last call
  369. # [12:09] <hsivonen> I'd love to see two interoperable implementations of that one
  370. # [12:09] <annevk42> funny
  371. # [12:10] <annevk42> I was just reading Member-only ARIA discussions as I encountered something ARIA-related in my inbox
  372. # [12:10] <om_sleep> what does role=math mean?
  373. # [12:10] <zcorpan_> i wonder why ARIA discussions are still happening in Member-only lists
  374. # [12:10] <annevk42> Not too optimistic about my comments getting addressed adequately
  375. # [12:10] * Quits: sid0___ (n=sid0@59.94.134.234) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  376. # [12:10] <hsivonen> om_sleep: it means that the the thing represents math and its text equivalent is MathML or TeX
  377. # [12:11] <om_sleep> I see
  378. # [12:11] <om_sleep> so you'd put it on an image that's an equation?
  379. # [12:11] <om_sleep> or something like that
  380. # [12:11] <hsivonen> which makes me ask: TeX with which implicitly defined macros?
  381. # [12:11] <zcorpan_> i also still wonder why MathML can't stand on its own and needs role="math"
  382. # [12:11] <om_sleep> anyway
  383. # [12:11] <om_sleep> bedtime
  384. # [12:11] <hsivonen> om_sleep: you basically dump fooTeX stuff in alt
  385. # [12:11] <om_sleep> zcorpan_: presumably the idea here is that the UA doesn't implement MathML but the assistive technology does
  386. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i asked that to be defined before
  387. # [12:12] <om_sleep> (!)
  388. # [12:12] <hsivonen> I wonder how top on the list of e.g. JAWS developers a TeX subsystem is
  389. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> om_sleep: even in that case, MathML can stand on its own -- it has a namespace and a tag name to identify itself as "math"
  390. # [12:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: oh yeah, the first SHOULD makes no sense
  391. # [12:13] * hsivonen starts drafting feedback
  392. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> "In order to be perceivable, images SHOULD also be labeled by text that describes the math formula as it should be spoken, using the aria-describedby attribute."
  393. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> wait, if the author should write how the formula should be spoken, what does role="math" help?
  394. # [12:18] <zcorpan_> oh well
  395. # [12:19] <zcorpan_> interesting that there are are both SHOULDs and shoulds
  396. # [12:19] <webben> Hmm. Yep that's a pretty confusing bit of spec.
  397. # [12:21] <zcorpan_> when role="math" was new, i asked "how would it be implemented?"
  398. # [12:21] <zcorpan_> evidently, that's not a great concern
  399. # [12:26] <hsivonen> email sent
  400. # [12:34] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@212.121.243.10)
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  402. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: where did you send it?
  403. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> found it
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  411. # [13:21] <hsivonen> am I understanding correctly that aria-label exists because title attribute is badly supported by AT?
  412. # [13:23] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  413. # [13:23] <hsivonen> or is the purpose to suppress the tooltip?
  414. # [13:28] <hsivonen> hmm. the conformance of aria-checked is interesting
  415. # [13:28] <hsivonen> it must be present but may have the value "undefined"
  416. # [13:30] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  417. # [13:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: my impression is that it exists because it's hard or annoying to position <h2> elements off-screen with css
  418. # [13:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ah.
  419. # [13:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: do you know why aria-required is global but aria-expanded isn't?
  420. # [13:33] <hsivonen> the former seems less universally applicable than the latter
  421. # [13:33] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no
  422. # [13:33] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: (...and that Lynx users can be ignored)
  423. # [13:34] <hsivonen> If Lynx users wish to become unignored, Lynx should catch up with a lot of Web tech that isn't even tied to bitmap rendering
  424. # [13:35] <hsivonen> someone should take Gecko or WebKit and replace the bitmap renderer with a character grid renderer
  425. # [13:35] <annevk42> I wonder that given the time it takes to get ARIA deployed and given that IE is updating as well if it would not have been more productive to argue for the sane solutions from the start...
  426. # [13:36] <annevk42> Of course, with hindsight things are easier.
  427. # [13:37] <hsivonen> well, assuming that IE8 doesn't support role=math, feel free to argue for a saner solution for that one
  428. # [13:38] <hsivonen> the obvious solution is MathML-in-text/html, but for that to work, IE and WebKit need MathML support
  429. # [13:38] <annevk42> you've already done that no?
  430. # [13:39] <hsivonen> annevk42: I effectively argued for the reading of the math as words being used as alt
  431. # [13:39] <hsivonen> the major use case is math on wikipedia
  432. # [13:39] <annevk42> another problem with this silo approach to comments is that the WG can back each other up while people commenting are all alone
  433. # [13:40] <hsivonen> I guess they should have the resources to feed their math to AsTeR in order to generate the words
  434. # [13:40] <hsivonen> at least in English
  435. # [13:40] <zcorpan_> is alt text for math images covered in html5?
  436. # [13:40] <annevk42> e.g. following the progress on each other's comments is much harder, etc.
  437. # [13:41] <annevk42> zcorpan_, yeah, use MathML :)
  438. # [13:43] <hsivonen> I'm updating v.nu's ARIA support
  439. # [13:44] <hsivonen> it seems that PF hoisted nearly everything except aria-expanded into global states/props, and I don't understand the logic behind that move at all
  440. # [13:45] <hsivonen> also, I don't like the design pattern for aria-checked, but I guess it's too late to complain about that one
  441. # [13:45] <annevk42> hmm Hixie complicated things so much with the storage mutex and task queues
  442. # [13:45] * annevk42 grmbls
  443. # [13:45] * Joins: philipj__ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  444. # [13:49] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/myakura/statuses/1867322694
  445. # [13:51] <annevk42> while certainly practical, do we really want to alienate yet another bunch of people? :)
  446. # [13:58] <Dashiva> Bikeshed a new name instead?
  447. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Maybe the ODF proponents shouldn't have bragged about how short their spec is: http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2009/05/09/1-2-1.aspx
  448. # [14:02] * Joins: zalan (n=zalan@catv-89-133-235-217.catv.broadband.hu)
  449. # [14:02] <annevk42> "Text: The specific conversion is implementation-defined"
  450. # [14:02] <annevk42> yay
  451. # [14:03] <hsivonen> they should have defined .doc5, .xls5 and .ppt5 instead of these ODF and OOXML things
  452. # [14:03] <Dashiva> <insert joke about ODF5>
  453. # [14:03] * Dashiva shakes fist at hsivonen
  454. # [14:06] <annevk42> I guess the conversion is impl specific because it can depend on locale and such as well
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  456. # [14:07] <annevk42> Sort of glad I'm not involved with that though admittedly we have similar issues with e.g. character encoding
  457. # [14:12] <annevk42> also check the comments on that MS blog post btw
  458. # [14:17] <annevk42> hmm: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/05/on_the_anonymit.html
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  461. # [14:38] <Dashiva> "So that everyone can be sure about which parts are which, the normative parts use specific phrases like “shall” and “shall not” to clearly label the things the standard actually requires you to do."
  462. # [14:38] <Dashiva> Reminds me of that specs vs blogs post :)
  463. # [14:40] <annevk42> if I'm to believe that person it sounds like ODF 1.1 has been written in HTML4 style
  464. # [14:42] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  465. # [14:46] <annevk42> That last email from Laura is interesting. Rather than saying what she thinks she selectively highlights parts from past surveys. (I.e. not mentioning that there was 5 to 1 agreement for the principle but rather that people disagreed and as well as strongly disagreed with the principle.)
  466. # [14:46] <annevk42> I seem to recall this happening more often, but I could be wrong
  467. # [14:48] <annevk42> And the last bit seems simply misleading as Larry was talking about the name of the draft which was a separate question from the one she highlights.
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  471. # [15:05] <Philip`> Hmm, people are saying things related to me on Twitter but I've got no way to respond
  472. # [15:05] * Philip` guesses he should just send email or something
  473. # [15:05] <annevk42> they are?
  474. # [15:06] <Dashiva> Philip`: Post it anywhere else and get someone to RT it ;)
  475. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: "Actually, I’ve noticed that on this page the social bookmark links create this error: “WHITESPACE in QUERY” Er, what?" - http://www.tomleadbetter.co.uk/blog/entry/html5/
  476. # [15:09] <zcorpan_> that page also has <input type="url" id="url" name="url" value="http://" /> which is not valid
  477. # [15:09] <annevk42> ah, burningbird + samruby
  478. # [15:09] <annevk42> seems we're following similar twitter queries :)
  479. # [15:09] * Quits: philipj__ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  480. # [15:11] <Philip`> I'm not really following any, I just randomly look at random people's Twitter pages sometimes :-)
  481. # [15:11] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: and "</l↩</ul>" which could have slightly clearer messages maybe
  482. # [15:12] <Philip`> I assume proper following would require a Twitter account, which is far too advanced for me when I haven't even got a blog yet
  483. # [15:12] <Philip`> (I haven't even got a proper homepage yet, so I'm ~15 years behind the times)
  484. # [15:14] * annevk42 hits the next issue in understanding task queues
  485. # [15:14] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  486. # [15:15] <zcorpan_> "The contact form also has several ARIA attributes, and if you look at it in Opera, you’ll see it has a nifty built-in validation."
  487. # [15:15] <hsivonen> what kind of validations does Opera have for ARIA?
  488. # [15:15] <hsivonen> or is that about WF2 validation?
  489. # [15:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: none, it's type="url" etc
  490. # [15:15] <zcorpan_> yep
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  497. # [16:05] <annevk42> sigh
  498. # [16:05] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  499. # [16:05] <annevk42> event loops differ between workers and browsing contexts
  500. # [16:06] <hsivonen> how?
  501. # [16:06] <annevk42> in browsing contexts they're always associated with a Document
  502. # [16:06] <annevk42> so when a Document gets garbage collected all the associated events get too (I think)
  503. # [16:07] <annevk42> this means that XHR cannot tie into existing event loops or has to tie into different ones depending on whether XMLHttpRequest Document exists
  504. # [16:07] <annevk42> neither is nice
  505. # [16:08] <hsivonen> I have tried not to look at GC interaction of native and JS objects
  506. # [16:08] <hsivonen> I'm assuming magic happens while I'm not looking
  507. # [16:08] <annevk42> it would probably be much easier if Hixie sorted all this out though one problem with that is he'd be the only spec writer to understand it
  508. # [16:12] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@64.241.37.140)
  509. # [16:13] <Philip`> Do implementors understand it?
  510. # [16:13] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: fwiw, I read Sam's process post as "put money where your mouth is (by producing camera-ready text) or stop complaining"
  511. # [16:15] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: and the license thing matters, because camera-ready text only works if it doesn't come with copyright strings attached
  512. # [16:15] <annevk42> Philip`, I think so, given the recent WebKit comments on Workers
  513. # [16:16] <annevk42> Philip`, but I'm not a 100% sure
  514. # [16:16] <annevk42> hmm, midori crashes all the time and the current chromium-browser cannot load any page whatsoever -- FAIL
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  522. # [16:38] <Philip`> http://linuxcentre.net/adobe-has-issued-a-dmca-removal-request-for-rtmpdump/ - hooray for DRM
  523. # [16:39] <Philip`> (rtmpdump is a tool for saving Flash streaming video to disk)
  524. # [16:40] <Philip`> I guess I'll have to delete the version off my disk, and stop downloading TV programmes that are broadcast for free anyway
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  529. # [17:19] * Dashiva is catching up on public-html mail from the two last weeks...
  530. # [17:19] <Dashiva> Can anyone tell me, is there a happy ending?
  531. # [17:20] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-158-206.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  532. # [17:20] <annevk42> anything going wrong?
  533. # [17:21] <annevk42> hehe, I like how I found http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/ again
  534. # [17:22] <annevk42> thanks for writing that karlcow!
  535. # [17:22] <Dashiva> Well, so far there seems to be a lot of heat about rdfa
  536. # [17:24] <Philip`> Someone tried to start writing a concrete document on how to use RDFa in HTML5
  537. # [17:24] <Philip`> Don't know if it's a good idea or not
  538. # [17:25] <gsnedders> w00t!
  539. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Maths exam over!
  540. # [17:25] <Dashiva> There was one line, about how the RDFa community would gladly ensure incorporating RDFa was as painless as possible
  541. # [17:26] <Dashiva> And I was wondering if that was the same RDFa community insisting on namespaces and CURIEs
  542. # [17:27] <Philip`> Dashiva: I think some people in that community have expressed a willingness to consider alternate prefix-binding mechanisms rather than xmlns:*
  543. # [17:27] <Philip`> which would avoid the text/html-specific pain
  544. # [17:29] <Dashiva> That sounds good
  545. # [17:29] <Philip`> I don't know whether they want to incompatibly change RDFa-in-XHTML to use that same mechanism, though
  546. # [17:30] <Philip`> or change it and leave the old deprecated mechanism in there too, so that there's three ways to specify prefixes
  547. # [17:30] <Philip`> or do something else
  548. # [17:31] <Dashiva> Mhm
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  566. # [18:43] <gsnedders> Time to do more work on html5lib-php, me thinks
  567. # [18:43] <gsnedders> (Like working on the 23 failing tokenizer tests)
  568. # [18:45] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  569. # [18:57] * gsnedders fixes 10
  570. # [18:58] <annevk4> the phone discussion just now was interesting
  571. # [18:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  572. # [18:58] <annevk4> apparently Larry thinks that the design principles we drafted do not reflect how HTML5 is written though he did not elaborate much on why when asked
  573. # [18:59] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/2009/05/21-html-wg-minutes.html
  574. # [18:59] <smedero> well he did refer to table @summary and head @profile as his examples
  575. # [18:59] <smedero> i think i kinda got what he meant... but it felt like he was dancing about something else he really wanted to say
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  578. # [19:00] <smedero> he did note he needed some time to formulate his comments...
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  580. # [19:01] <annevk4> still not really clear to me how @profile is related to caving cowpaths, but fair enough
  581. # [19:01] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  582. # [19:03] <annevk4> I think the problem with the HTML WG meeting is that a lot of time people start thinking while the telcon is happening rather than planning ahead of time what they want to say whenever the next telcon is
  583. # [19:04] <annevk4> This causes a lot of lost time for the other participants if someone is semi-brainstorming while everyone is dialed in
  584. # [19:04] <smedero> indeed.
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  587. # [19:10] <gsnedders> So I think all the tokenizer test cases html5lib-php fails are either disputable or the parse errors thrown in 9.2.4 Tokenization (and not subsections)
  588. # [19:11] <Philip`> Why are they disputable?
  589. # [19:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: The spec doesn't say what order parse errors have to be thrown in
  590. # [19:12] <gsnedders> (Or more to the point, for null bytes and non-characters, when they have to be thrown)
  591. # [19:13] <gsnedders> html5lib-php throws all those parse errors first, then does the actual tokenizing
  592. # [19:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: "Thora" typo in diagram
  593. # [19:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: The test cases should have ignoreErrorOrder:true (or something like that) in those cases
  594. # [19:21] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  595. # [19:22] <Dashiva> "Microdata will only work in HTML5/XHTML5. XHTML 1.1 and yes, 2.0 will be around for years, decades."
  596. # [19:22] <Dashiva> So we're still on the "If it doesn't validate, it doesn't work" page?
  597. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Yes
  598. # [19:28] <Dashiva> "Reversed domains are as ugly as CURIEs (but at least CURIEs resolve to something useful [...]"
  599. # [19:29] <Dashiva> Just avoiding the redundant http:// makes them a lot prettier in my book :)
  600. # [19:29] <gsnedders> s/resolve/might resolve/
  601. # [19:30] <Dashiva> "Are you thinking that someone will be using different namespaces but the same prefix? Come on -- do you really think that will happen?"
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  603. # [19:31] <Dashiva> Well, if prefixes never collide, why do we bother with namespaces? Why not just use the globally unique prefixes?
  604. # [19:33] <hober> Dashiva: indeed.
  605. # [19:35] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  606. # [19:38] <annevk4> Dashiva, can you please provide pointers with these quotes?
  607. # [19:47] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-24-6-168-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("->office")
  608. # [19:47] <Dashiva> Sure
  609. # [19:47] <Dashiva> Any particular one you want right now?
  610. # [19:48] <Dashiva> @annevk
  611. # [19:48] * Parts: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  612. # [19:48] <annevk4> 1 and 3 but 2 might be fun as well for completeness
  613. # [19:56] <gsnedders> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/detail?r=8f225971195ed9f2e6a8e28abaa01dc35100decb
  614. # [19:56] <gsnedders> w00t fun
  615. # [19:56] <gsnedders> I <3 languages with shit Unicode support.
  616. # [19:56] <annevk4> PHP6!
  617. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Um, have we been talking about that for as long as DNF yet? :P
  618. # [19:58] * gsnedders can remember when there was talk of getting an alpha out by the end of 2005
  619. # [19:58] <gsnedders> (As of today, we are still pre-alpha)
  620. # [20:00] <Dashiva> Hmm, can I easily get a link from the whatwg archives from a message-id?
  621. # [20:00] <annevk4> no :(
  622. # [20:01] <annevk4> maybe we should write a script that does enables that
  623. # [20:01] <Dashiva> First one: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019751.html
  624. # [20:02] <Hixie> Dashiva: if you have the body of the e-mail, searching for that on google works
  625. # [20:03] <gsnedders> 10 test failures…
  626. # [20:04] <Dashiva> Second: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019749.html
  627. # [20:06] <Dashiva> Third: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019752.html
  628. # [20:07] <Dashiva> annevk4: Would also be nice if the "by date" view segmented the list by day
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  630. # [20:11] <annevk4> Dashiva, hmm, I might just be compelled enough to try to do something
  631. # [20:11] <annevk4> been a while since I wrote Python
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  641. # [20:22] <Madness> A quick question about html5 and links around stuff: Suppose I have a link with overflowing content. Should the clickable area be limited o the a element or extended to the overflow too?
  642. # [20:24] <Hixie> Madness: the click on any text node or box that is a descendant of the element would bubble to the element and then cause the link to be followed
  643. # [20:25] <Madness> Thank you.
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  646. # [20:30] <Hixie> there's a (!@$%*! registration fee for the tpac meeting?
  647. # [20:30] <Hixie> are you kidding me?
  648. # [20:31] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  649. # [20:31] <Hixie> we have enough trouble getting people to attend the htmlwg meeting in the first place
  650. # [20:32] <annevk42> how much?
  651. # [20:33] <Hixie> $50
  652. # [20:33] <annevk42> per day or for the whole event?
  653. # [20:33] <Hixie> event
  654. # [20:33] <Hixie> er
  655. # [20:33] <Hixie> day!
  656. # [20:33] <Hixie> jesus!
  657. # [20:33] <Hixie> that's even worse!
  658. # [20:34] <annevk42> so I guess it's more than food costs then
  659. # [20:34] <Hixie> i can't justify $350 for a meeting i don't even want to go to in the first place!
  660. # [20:34] <Hixie> that's insane!
  661. # [20:34] <annevk42> you paid more last year
  662. # [20:34] <annevk42> well, your employer
  663. # [20:35] <Hixie> i only paid travel last year
  664. # [20:35] <Hixie> and hotel
  665. # [20:35] <annevk42> and food
  666. # [20:35] <Hixie> i have to pay for food even if there's n meeting
  667. # [20:35] <smedero> is that info on a members only list?
  668. # [20:35] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/overview.html#Registration
  669. # [20:35] <annevk42> I usually pay a lot more for food when there's a meeting :)
  670. # [20:36] <smedero> lovely. following links around the w3.org site, I ended up here: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html
  671. # [20:36] <smedero> heh
  672. # [20:36] <annevk42> "The registration fee will increase to 75 USD per person, per day after a date approximately 4-6 weeks prior to the meeting."
  673. # [20:37] <smedero> yowsers
  674. # [20:37] <annevk42> fortunately the dollar ain't worth shit
  675. # [20:37] <annevk42> :p
  676. # [20:37] <Hixie> yeah well i'm paid by the $ so...
  677. # [20:37] * sid0_ is now known as sid0
  678. # [20:37] <Hixie> also, google already paid the insane 5-digit membership fee this year
  679. # [20:38] <Hixie> so charging again for the meeting is crazy
  680. # [20:43] * annevk42 investigates cron jobs for the alternate mail index
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  683. # [21:16] <hsivonen> is the HTML WG having a meeting at TPAC?
  684. # [21:20] <smedero> I thought so...
  685. # [21:20] <smedero> Didn't Chris Wilson send something around?
  686. # [21:21] <gsnedders> He was asking about interest for a meeting, IIRC
  687. # [21:21] * gsnedders isn't really sure, as it's highly unlikely he'll be there, and thus doesn't care
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  691. # [21:45] <gsnedders> What file do I add tests to for the tokenizer?
  692. # [21:46] <gsnedders> What's the diff between test1, test2, test3 and test4?
  693. # [21:47] <Philip`> One of them is (originally) automatically generated, and full of weird short inputs, so you probably shouldn't use that one
  694. # [21:47] <Philip`> There's no clear difference between the others, as far as I'm aware
  695. # [21:48] <Philip`> so pick one that has some existing tests that are vaguely similar to the one you're adding
  696. # [21:48] <Philip`> or pick one at random
  697. # [21:50] <Philip`> or think up a new system that makes sense, and rewrite all the tests into a different layout
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  700. # [21:55] <annevk4> Philip`, any chance you can put <meta name=robots content=index,nofollow> on your survey pages?
  701. # [21:55] <annevk4> Philip`, I'm getting reqeusts from spammers if they can put spam links on your page
  702. # [21:56] <annevk4> Philip`, e.g. http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html
  703. # [21:57] <annevk4> Philip`, it's not too serious fwiw
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  718. # [22:50] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.18.160)
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  723. # [23:07] * Quits: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@17.244.9.219) (Client Quit)
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  725. # [23:08] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  726. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  727. # [23:19] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.228) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  728. # [23:19] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  729. # [23:41] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-156-65.perm.iinet.net.au)
  730. # [23:50] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-d7336fafe423f498) ("The computer fell asleep")
  731. # [23:50] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-af52d31e2706cfbe)
  732. # [23:50] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-156-65.perm.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  733. # [23:58] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip96.unival.com)
  734. # [23:59] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-af52d31e2706cfbe) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  735. # Session Close: Fri May 22 00:00:00 2009

The end :)