/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [01:20] <karlcow> [11:18] <annevk42> hehe, I like how I found http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/ again
  19. # [01:20] <karlcow> [11:18] <annevk42> thanks for writing that karlcow!
  20. # [01:20] <karlcow> that was a Team work :) but thanks
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  28. # [02:16] <Hixie> any atom experts here?
  29. # [02:16] <Hixie> should an atom <atom:content> node contain a redundant instance of the entry's title?
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  49. # [04:31] <mpilgrim> hixie: there's nothing stopping you, but it's highly unusual
  50. # [04:32] <mpilgrim> (re: atom:content)
  51. # [04:33] <Hixie> k
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  97. # [09:28] <Hixie> ok
  98. # [09:28] <Hixie> that concludes my first attempt at dealing with microdata-related use cases
  99. # [09:44] <KevinMarks> looks like I tuned in just too late
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  105. # [09:58] <Hixie> KevinMarks: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0207.html
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  108. # [10:10] <hsivonen> now the readers of public-html who aren't subscribing to whatwg need to deal with the almost-always-broken next/prev navigation of the whatwg archives if they want to inspect the threads
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  111. # [10:14] <othermaciej> is anyone here who was at the html wg telecon today?
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  119. # [11:03] <Hixie> i love how people talk about the content of my e-mails instead of the content of the spec
  120. # [11:04] <Hixie> who cares if html5 can replace atom or not -- the spec doesn't take a position on the issue
  121. # [11:04] <Hixie> it just defines how to go from text/html to atom
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  123. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: if it's only for conversion within a server, it's not an interop issue that belongs in the spec
  124. # [11:07] <Hixie> who mentioned a server?
  125. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: hence, if *you* have put it in the spec, one assumes that the purpose is that one party publishes an HTML page and another converts it to Atom
  126. # [11:07] <hsivonen> which looks a lot like minting a new feed format to me
  127. # [11:08] <Hixie> i think y'all are making a mountain out of a molehill
  128. # [11:08] <Hixie> it makes sense imho for a format spec to define how it maps to other specssssss
  129. # [11:08] <Hixie> specs, even
  130. # [11:08] * Hixie pokes at his s key
  131. # [11:09] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should rewrite my HTML-to-feeds converter
  132. # [11:09] <hsivonen> the current one is so brittle I can't make changes to it
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  137. # [11:26] <Hixie> ok bed time... tomorrow i guess i'll have to figure out some solution to the shared workers message port issue
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  145. # [12:06] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/News/2009#item79 - "W3C Rescinds Four Proposed Edited Recommendations for XHTML Documents"
  146. # [12:06] * Philip` wonders if that has happened before for any other documents
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  149. # [12:18] <gsnedders> It does kinda tell the XHTML2 WG that they can't just ignore comments, though.
  150. # [12:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: part of the Process-wise problem is, though, that others have moved on and are not bothering to send them comments
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  152. # [12:26] <gsnedders> Indeed.
  153. # [12:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: so they could follow the Process but still publish stuff that hasn't had proper review
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  155. # [12:32] <hsivonen> the W3C Process seems to lack a provision for that case
  156. # [12:43] <gsnedders> As has been implied before, MLW has now admitted he was at TPAC.
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  167. # [13:24] <othermaciej> gsnedders: do you think we're giving him too much attention maybe?
  168. # [13:25] * gsnedders shrugs
  169. # [13:25] <othermaciej> I would say that for instance more attention than 0 is too much
  170. # [13:25] <gsnedders> I don't think that'll make any difference though
  171. # [13:26] <othermaciej> trolls like attention
  172. # [13:27] <annevk42> I was at the telcon, FWIW
  173. # [13:28] <othermaciej> annevk42: I just wanted to ask if there was any decision about my proposals for addressing the Formal Objection to the design principles
  174. # [13:29] <othermaciej> annevk42: I concluded based on the minutes that there wasn't
  175. # [13:29] <annevk42> It seemed that people were mostly uninterested working on it
  176. # [13:29] <othermaciej> instead people took it as an opportunity to make unrelated complaints
  177. # [13:29] <hsivonen> wonders if objections cease blocking "group consensus" and turn into lack of "community consensus" (or something) when the objector leaves the group
  178. # [13:29] <annevk42> Dave Singer would talk to you about it though
  179. # [13:30] <othermaciej> all I wanted was a response to my suggestion
  180. # [13:30] <othermaciej> if people have unrelated complaints about the document they should post them to the list
  181. # [13:31] <othermaciej> or if they think Philip TAYLOR's objection is not worth addressing at all they can say that too
  182. # [13:31] <othermaciej> oh well
  183. # [13:31] <annevk42> Ah, the response to that was that while it was ok, Laura Carlson had concerns in reply to your email so there was no lazy consensus or some such
  184. # [13:31] <annevk42> I think rubys put that on the mailing list already
  185. # [13:32] <othermaciej> Laura was one of the very few people to object to any of the principles
  186. # [13:33] <othermaciej> it seems like the few people who objected to any of them also objected to a lot of them
  187. # [13:37] <annevk42> I'm not sure how we declare consensus but I get the feeling 1 objector is enough
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  189. # [13:40] <othermaciej> I reviewed the voting and if people still largely hold their positions, consensus may be impossible
  190. # [13:40] <othermaciej> it seems that a large majority of the group agreed with all or nearly all of the principles
  191. # [13:40] <othermaciej> and a few people disagreed with all or nearly all
  192. # [13:40] <othermaciej> that makes it unlikely that any small changes would reduce the degree of disagreement
  193. # [13:41] <othermaciej> that being said, I'd still like to address the Formal Objection as best I can, since Sam asked for it to be addressed
  194. # [13:42] <othermaciej> (my point is kind of that deleting a few of the principles won't make the objectors happy, and would probably make some of the people in favor unhappy, while deleting most or all of them would make the document pointless)
  195. # [13:45] <annevk42> I think some people, i.e. Laura and Larry, expect the Design Principles to be used as rules, rather than as means of explaining
  196. # [13:45] <annevk42> And therefore they want full consensus on them or something. I don't believe that'll ever work.
  197. # [13:46] <othermaciej> well, when we originally put them in the wiki, their intent was to be descriptive, not prescriptive
  198. # [13:47] <othermaciej> that they would describe the design approach that had been used to draft HTML5 so far
  199. # [13:47] <othermaciej> and with the hope that these principles would be useful to others
  200. # [13:48] <othermaciej> I think they do help clarify things at times by letting complex repeating themes be expressed in a short way by referencing the principles
  201. # [13:48] <othermaciej> but sometimes they are used to argue opposite sites of the same point
  202. # [13:48] <othermaciej> or sometimes people reject the premise
  203. # [13:49] <othermaciej> I do admit though that I get tired of rehashing basic arguments about error handling and working with existing Web content
  204. # [13:50] <othermaciej> so maybe it would be nice to have consensus about those kinds of things
  205. # [13:50] <annevk42> I was happy to find the W3C specification guidelines and it citing error handling as being important
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  207. # [13:50] <annevk42> Nobody replied when I pointed that out though.
  208. # [13:51] <othermaciej> incidentally I don't think Larry's distinction between "Technical Specification" and "Applicability Statement" matches IETF practice
  209. # [13:51] <othermaciej> I almost pointed it out on the list, but then I concluded that debating the fine points of IETF-specific terms of art was not really on topic
  210. # [13:53] <annevk42> I find TS and AS to be very vaguely defined so you can give almost any meaning to them you want to
  211. # [13:53] <othermaciej> I think that the intent was that things like http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc793.txt are Technical Specifications and things like http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1122.txt are Applicability Statements
  212. # [13:53] <othermaciej> note that both of them specify various kinds of error handling
  213. # [13:53] <annevk42> How Larry comes to the statement that error handling is not part of TS is somewhat beyond me though (although some other people applauded him for it...)
  214. # [13:53] <othermaciej> so wether error handling is specified is irrelevant
  215. # [13:54] <othermaciej> certainly that's not justified by the BCP he linked
  216. # [13:54] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  217. # [13:54] <othermaciej> anyway, I think the difference is meant to be between things like RFC793 that describe a protocol or format, and things like RFC1122 that give requirements for deploying combinations of protocols/formats/etc in a particular environment
  218. # [13:55] <hsivonen> I think the concept of "Technical Specification" isn't helpful for HTML5
  219. # [13:55] <othermaciej> having conformance criteria, error handling, or rules for specific classes of software does not exclude you from being a TS
  220. # [13:55] <othermaciej> that too
  221. # [13:55] <othermaciej> I didn't realize at first that he was using an IETF-specific term of art
  222. # [13:55] <othermaciej> now that I know that, it doesn't seem worthwhile to debate with him
  223. # [13:58] <annevk42> I'm trying to debate with him, but he's not actually replying :)
  224. # [14:18] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  225. # [14:18] <Philip`> Hmm, OpenOffice isn't very good for forms written in Word whose column layout is done using spaces
  226. # [14:20] <othermaciej> I am amazed at the complexity of http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ie8-mode.png
  227. # [14:22] <annevk42> Hmm, I wonder if Google will implement Ruby for just Chromium or also WebKit. I reckon it has to be in WebKit. (On a side note, it seems they're looking into both XHTML Ruby and HTML5 Ruby and the CSS3 Ruby module (which I believe has outstanding issues, but nobody ever started working on).)
  228. # [14:22] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and it doesn't even visualize the decision of which UA string to use and whether the compat mode button gets hidden
  229. # [14:22] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-550b1b5ecddecb89)
  230. # [14:22] <othermaciej> Google is implementing Ruby?
  231. # [14:22] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I should probably make it clearer what it means to have a compat mode frame parent
  232. # [14:22] <othermaciej> as in the markup?
  233. # [14:22] <othermaciej> I thin it would be hard to implement outside the layout engine
  234. # [14:23] <othermaciej> but I haven't really heard from them about it
  235. # [14:23] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=4016#c3
  236. # [14:23] <annevk42> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009May/0189.html
  237. # [14:23] <annevk42> and there's another message on some HTML list
  238. # [14:24] <othermaciej> well perhaps he'll drop a giant patch bomb when he's done
  239. # [14:24] <othermaciej> or maybe the people who do WebKit text stuff already know about his work
  240. # [14:24] * othermaciej shrugs
  241. # [14:24] <annevk42> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019838.html
  242. # [14:29] <annevk42> I wonder if W3C management would rescind SVG 1.2 as well if Bjoern starts complaining about e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2005Jun/0000.html
  243. # [14:33] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  244. # [14:34] <othermaciej> too bad Bjoern didn't turn out to be as good at editing specs as he is at finding technical flaws
  245. # [14:38] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I don't see an arrow for IE=6, how does that behave?
  246. # [14:39] <Philip`> jgraham: You need to implement microdata-to-{vCard,iCalendar,BibTeX,Atom} soon, so that people can test the spec and so that I won't feel any compulsion to implement anything myself
  247. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I thought that wouldn't be very relevant to test
  248. # [14:39] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-31.dynamic.amis.net)
  249. # [14:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: although now that you mention it, it is an interestingly unobvious case
  250. # [14:40] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.46)
  251. # [14:41] <annevk42> Hmm, why can't <article pubdate> be taken from <time> somewhere within the <article>. That'd be nicer
  252. # [14:41] <Philip`> I would guess that it's the same as IE=7, because the IE6 engine was replaced with the IE7 engine rather than being kept alive in parallel
  253. # [14:41] <Philip`> but guessing based on logic seems to be quite dangerous when talking about IE modes
  254. # [14:44] <hsivonen> It seems to me that the only values one should use are EmulateIE7 and Edge, and the former should only be used temporarily to migrate to the latter
  255. # [14:46] <Dashiva> But if you use Edge, you can't get to quirks mode at all?
  256. # [14:46] <Dashiva> Or should those arrows be goin to "Quirky or No doctype"?
  257. # [14:47] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/ua-compatible-contents.txt / http://philip.html5.org/data/ua-compatible-headers.txt - lots use IE=7, lots use IE=EmulateIE7, basically nobody uses IE=edge
  258. # [14:49] <Philip`> (plus the usual dozy copy-pasters and typoers)
  259. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Dashiva: you shouldn't use the quirks mode
  260. # [14:50] <Dashiva> Well, yes, but what if you do?
  261. # [14:51] <hsivonen> Dashiva: just don't :-)
  262. # [14:51] <Dashiva> Maybe you forget to include a doctype on one of your pages
  263. # [14:51] <Dashiva> Does IE8 use almost standards or quirks then?
  264. # [14:51] <hsivonen> Dashiva: IE8 standards as shown in the diagram
  265. # [14:51] <Dashiva> okay
  266. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Dashiva: so you should always have a standards-mode or almost standards-mode doctype
  267. # [14:52] <hsivonen> since otherwise you can put other browsers in quirks without putting IE8 to quirks
  268. # [14:52] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's what I was wondering if would happen. It seemed odd.
  269. # [14:53] <hsivonen> I suppose the desirable semantics would be EmulateIEEdge
  270. # [14:53] <Philip`> Isn't that what you get if you don't specify any x-ua-compatible at all?
  271. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: then you get the button
  272. # [14:54] <Philip`> Ah
  273. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: or whatever the frame parent did
  274. # [14:54] <Philip`> Oh
  275. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: or now whatever the parent did, but you inherit its compat modeness
  276. # [14:55] <Philip`> Uh
  277. # [14:56] <hsivonen> s/now/not/
  278. # [14:56] <Philip`> Ah
  279. # [14:57] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  280. # [14:57] <hsivonen> the fun part is that you can end up in the IE 5.5 mode with compat modeness or without, so knowing that frame parent is quirks is not enough knowledge to decide frames
  281. # [14:57] <hsivonen> you need to consider *how* the frame parent got there
  282. # [14:58] <hsivonen> perhaps I should add decisions to hide the button and to propagate compat mode to child frames as boxes to the flowchart
  283. # [14:59] <Philip`> It's very nice of Microsoft to have fixed the unfortunate bug wherein it's nearly possible for a person to understand how their page is going to be rendered
  284. # [14:59] <annevk42> I'm not too interested in making adjustments to my site to cater to this mess
  285. # [14:59] <annevk42> Though I understand a large part of the Web has already done so :/
  286. # [15:00] <Philip`> annevk42: But you're not interested in making adjustments to your site to cater for any other released (or beta?) browser either :-)
  287. # [15:01] <annevk42> Ah yeah, I forgot my site renders like crap anyway :D
  288. # [15:01] <hsivonen> Philip`: scary how big a proportion copied and pasted from http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/01/22/Best-Standards-Support and got a bogus result
  289. # [15:01] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@38.99.201.242)
  290. # [15:03] <hsivonen> also, it's sad how much FF=3 and OtherUA=4 get copied and pasted
  291. # [15:03] <hsivonen> must remember to cite this when someone naively doubts the rampant cargo cultism in Web authoring
  292. # [15:08] * gsnedders stabs PHP for not even having a queue structure
  293. # [15:09] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  294. # [15:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Can't you just use an array?
  295. # [15:11] <Philip`> and push and shift
  296. # [15:11] <Philip`> (That's how it works in Perl anyway)
  297. # [15:11] <gsnedders> Shifting is O(n) though :(
  298. # [15:12] <Philip`> That's fine if n is small
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  300. # [15:13] <Dashiva> Use a circular buffer instead of shifting? :)
  301. # [15:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: Also, arrays have a 70 byte overhead per value in PHP, which can get quite big.
  302. # [15:14] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.64.234)
  303. # [15:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think PHP having a queue structure would solve that problem
  304. # [15:15] <Philip`> because they'd presumably implement it in the same way
  305. # [15:16] <gsnedders> SPLQueue in PHP 5.3 doesn't have that overhead, but is in a disablable extension (which is why it's called PHP Standard Library, obviously).
  306. # [15:16] <Philip`> If I remember correctly, the Python html5lib just uses indexes into constant strings, since that was more efficient than mutable lists
  307. # [15:16] <Philip`> (for the input stream, anyway)
  308. # [15:17] <gsnedders> Yeah, PHP html5lib does too
  309. # [15:20] <Madness> hsivonen, iinm when you feed IE8 the html5 doctype it automatically uses the superstandard layout engine.
  310. # [15:20] * Philip` would call it the "less buggy than all the others" layout engine, not the "superstandard" one :-p
  311. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Madness: if your domain isn't blacklisted, framed by a compat mode site, etc., etc.
  312. # [15:22] <hsivonen> Madness: the main benefit of IE=Edge is getting rid of the button, though, if one happens to care about the button
  313. # [15:22] <Madness> Hm, intresting.
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  315. # [15:27] <hsivonen> what should I do when SVN seems to stop tracking a file that is supposed to be under version control?
  316. # [15:28] <gsnedders> "seems" how?
  317. # [15:28] <Madness> Check for exclusions?
  318. # [15:28] <gsnedders> svn status?
  319. # [15:28] <hsivonen> svn stat doesn't mention it after I edit it
  320. # [15:28] <gsnedders> Check your ignores
  321. # [15:28] <hsivonen> and svn add says it's already under VC
  322. # [15:28] <hsivonen> can't see it in ignores
  323. # [15:28] <gsnedders> But that shouldn't really have any effect if it is already tracked
  324. # [15:28] <gsnedders> *affect
  325. # [15:28] <gsnedders> *effect
  326. # [15:30] <Philip`> Did you do something crazy like copy a .svn directory from one place to another?
  327. # [15:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: I copied my whole local sandbox to another directory
  328. # [15:31] <hsivonen> surely .svn has the good sense to be relative and not depend on absolute fs location?
  329. # [15:31] <hsivonen> ignores look reasonable
  330. # [15:31] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  331. # [15:32] <Philip`> It's fine if you copy the entire working copy tree, but I've seen it get horribly confused if you copy a subdirectory to another location within the tree
  332. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I haven't done that
  333. # [15:32] <Philip`> Does svn diff notice any changes?
  334. # [15:32] <hsivonen> it doesn't
  335. # [15:32] <Philip`> Have you definitely actually changed the file?
  336. # [15:33] <hsivonen> Ooh!
  337. # [15:34] <hsivonen> no, I hadn't. *blush*
  338. # [15:34] * gsnedders quite often does that
  339. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I had edited the wrong copy in a neighboring dir
  340. # [15:35] <Philip`> Ah, that could explain the behaviour you see :-p
  341. # [15:35] * gsnedders closes as notabug
  342. # [15:36] <hsivonen> thanks
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  351. # [16:31] <annevk42> I could see myself turning http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/ into Atom-compatible XHTML5
  352. # [16:31] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.201.111) (Remote closed the connection)
  353. # [16:32] <Philip`> annevk42: For what purpose?
  354. # [16:32] <annevk42> So that other people can track it of course :)
  355. # [16:32] <annevk42> And since I don't want to maintain an Atom feed or write a Perl script
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  358. # [16:39] <Philip`> annevk42: web.archive.org indicates that it was updated 3 times in over a year, so I'm not sure it really needs hundreds of feed readers pinging it every 30 minutes looking for updates :-p
  359. # [16:41] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-98-234-65-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  360. # [16:41] <annevk42> Philip`, that's not for you to decide :)
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  362. # [16:54] <Philip`> annevk42: Of course not - it's for Hixie to decide
  363. # [16:57] <Dashiva> I thought it was for the community to build consensus about
  364. # [17:01] * Joins: BARTdG (n=BARTdG@5ED42544.cable.ziggo.nl)
  365. # [17:05] <Philip`> It is, except we don't have consensus on which community needs to build that consensus, so we go with the one-person community consisting of Hixie
  366. # [17:06] <Dashiva> I don't think there's consenus on that
  367. # [17:06] <Dashiva> +s
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  370. # [17:13] <Philip`> Dashiva: It doesn't matter as long as Hixie consents with it
  371. # [17:15] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  372. # [17:27] <Philip`> The bit of HTML 5 that talks about xml:lang is horribly confusing
  373. # [17:29] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
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  378. # [17:53] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/meta-robots.txt - hmm, not much consistency there
  379. # [17:54] <Philip`> "index, follow, jogos, game, online, flash, jogos em flash, jogos online, jogos multiplay, multiplay, Anti Pacman" - don't think they've quite got the hang of it yet
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  381. # [17:58] <Philip`> annevk42: Added <meta name="robots" content="index, nofollow"> to my HTML pages now
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  391. # [18:45] <hober> Is Sam back on board with the DOM Consistency principle? http://www.w3.org/mid/4A16D275.10202@intertwingly.net
  392. # [18:48] <Philip`> Where did he indicate he was against it?
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  397. # [19:16] <hober> Philip`: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/04/08/HTML-Reunification
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  399. # [19:27] <Philip`> hober: Ah, right
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  416. # [22:00] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  417. # [22:00] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  425. # [22:18] <Hixie> wow safari does 'autofocus'
  426. # [22:18] <Hixie> sweet
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  433. # [22:43] <Philip`> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1634215
  434. # [22:44] <Philip`> http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1242425&cid=28058191 - "When's the last time you laid out a site without a table element on every page? Hell, it's almost always the next thing to follow <body> on my pages." - hmm, I think the last time I did that was about 1998
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  447. # [23:41] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@c-68-49-245-59.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  448. # [23:45] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  449. # [23:53] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip151.unival.com)
  450. # Session Close: Sat May 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)