/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: apparently Larry doesn't like that you say "must" instead of "is"
  6. # [00:20] <Hixie> and i don't like that specs say is instead of must, so...
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  8. # [00:23] <Philip`> You could say "It must be the case that the behaviour is ..." to combine the best of both worlds
  9. # [00:23] <Hixie> lol
  10. # [00:26] <othermaciej> right
  11. # [00:26] <othermaciej> passive voice
  12. # [00:27] <annevk42> I think you can make a point that the browsing context stuff needs to be called out, but nobody has done yet. I somewhat doubt most people got that far...
  13. # [00:27] <annevk42> And with browsing context stuff I also mean things like navigation and the page load processing model because that is not at all specific to HTML
  14. # [00:28] <othermaciej> I do think "processing requirements" is a category not really captured by the current subtitle
  15. # [00:28] <othermaciej> and it's fair enough to say some of the processing requirements go beyond what just goes without saying
  16. # [00:30] <Hixie> the subtitle is a waste of time
  17. # [00:30] <Hixie> you'll notice the whatwg spec doesn't have one
  18. # [00:31] <hober> It's a giant bikeshed that people use to vent all of their other problems with the direction of the spec.
  19. # [00:32] <annevk42> yeah, e.g. Larry somehow didn't note the section called "Scope"
  20. # [00:32] <annevk42> typically that's where you state what the spec is about, not in the title...
  21. # [00:33] <Philip`> hober: If it's giant bikeshed then you need to be pretty careful about what colour you paint it, otherwise it'll be an eyesore that's visible for miles around
  22. # [00:33] <Hixie> maybe i should change the subtitle to just "A Technical Specification"
  23. # [00:34] <Philip`> Or "A Specification"
  24. # [00:34] <Philip`> Could you have specifications that aren't technical?
  25. # [00:35] <Philip`> (in the standard meaning of "technical", not the technical IETF meaning of it)
  26. # [00:35] <annevk42> "A Work of Fiction" would also be applicable until 2022 :p
  27. # [00:36] <Hixie> "Based on a true story!"
  28. # [00:36] <annevk42> :)
  29. # [00:36] <annevk42> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/statuses/1887218782 ?
  30. # [00:37] <Philip`> HTML 5: A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer
  31. # [00:42] <hober> Philip` ftw
  32. # [00:42] <Hixie> Philip`: maybe once we have diagrams...
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  34. # [00:42] <Philip`> There's at least, uh, three that I can think of
  35. # [00:43] <Philip`> I guess one per hundred pages isn't enough to really count as "Illustrated"
  36. # [00:43] <Hixie> right
  37. # [00:44] * gsnedders ponders trying to do a presentation with that title
  38. # [00:44] * gsnedders then realizes he can't draw, and thus would have major problems with illustrations
  39. # [00:46] <Philip`> I suppose there's also the issue that young ladies aren't really the target audience for the spec
  40. # [00:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Just do them all in xfig
  41. # [00:46] <gsnedders> I'm totally uncreative
  42. # [00:48] <inimino> all the more reason to practice
  43. # [00:48] <gsnedders> I gave up a long time ago.
  44. # [00:49] <inimino> unless you tried for at least ten years with no progress, you gave up too soon :-)
  45. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Well, must've done art (at school) for around ten years :P
  46. # [00:50] <inimino> if you can read and write and do maths you can learn to draw
  47. # [00:52] <Philip`> I had a How To Draw Dinosaurs book a while ago
  48. # [00:52] <Philip`> I could cope with some of bits where you just trace the shapes that are in the book
  49. # [00:52] <Philip`> but that was about my limit
  50. # [00:55] <inimino> I recommend a life drawing course
  51. # [00:56] <inimino> I've never seen anyone that took one and did not improve considerably
  52. # [00:57] <Philip`> Improvement does not imply that the end state is any good :-p
  53. # [00:57] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  54. # [00:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: I agree, subtitle is a waste of time
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  100. # [05:34] <othermaciej> so what's the story with EventSource and server-sent events these days?
  101. # [05:37] <Hixie> it's stable
  102. # [05:37] <Hixie> not aware of any outstanding issues
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  132. # [09:57] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2009May/0066.html
  133. # [10:03] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009May/0024.html
  134. # [10:07] <hsivonen> context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2009May/0051.html
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  139. # [10:29] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2009AprJun/0112.html
  140. # [10:36] <Hixie> there's a perception that wg groups fail to meet their deadlines because they always do, because the timetables the w3c put forward are wildly unrealistic, because they consider realistic timetables to be too likely to turn people away
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  142. # [10:45] * mhausenblas seldom agrees with Hixie, but 'they consider realistic timetables to be too likely to turn people away' deserves a +1 ;)
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  145. # [10:47] <Hixie> when the htmlwg was chartered, i said what the html5 timetable was
  146. # [10:47] <Hixie> last call in oct 2009, etc
  147. # [10:47] <othermaciej> which was clearly unreasonable, to anyone who had any understanding of the matter
  148. # [10:48] <othermaciej> at this point I am not sure if we will get to Last Call this decade, given Sam's way of talking about it...
  149. # [10:48] <Hixie> they said that was never going to work and instead used this: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter#deliverables
  150. # [10:48] <Hixie> last call june 2008, CR by sept last year
  151. # [10:49] <Hixie> whatwg's html5 will reach LC in oct 2009
  152. # [10:49] <Hixie> i can't speak as to the w3c's :-)
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  156. # [11:07] <zcorpan> "Add a <code title="">type</code> attribute whose value is the string "<code title="">text/html</code>" to <var title="">x</var>"
  157. # [11:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^ that seems unnecessary and might be incorrect
  158. # [11:08] <Hixie> i thought i removed the type attribute in the case where it was wrong
  159. # [11:09] <zcorpan> hmm the next step inserts another <link rel="alternate">
  160. # [11:09] <Hixie> oooops
  161. # [11:09] <Hixie> looks like i have an extra one
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  163. # [11:10] <zcorpan> isn't type="" optional anyway?
  164. # [11:10] <Hixie> yeah but seems good to include it if you know it
  165. # [11:11] <Hixie> ok removed the extra one
  166. # [11:11] <Hixie> bed time now
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  169. # [11:12] <Hixie> uh
  170. # [11:12] <Hixie> hsivonen:
  171. # [11:12] <Hixie> Possible conformance errors:
  172. # [11:12] <Hixie> "Stream length exceeds limit.": non-document-error io: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-validation
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  204. # [14:48] * gsnedders sighs
  205. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Splitting out the input stream from the tokenizer in PHP html5lib is a lot of work
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  215. # [15:38] * gsnedders finds a fairly major bug
  216. # [15:38] <gsnedders> Though actually with only CDATA and RCDATA elements having ASCII names it isn't actually a bug that can ever be hit
  217. # [15:39] <annevk4> that doesn't like you discovered a bug then :)
  218. # [15:42] * gsnedders wonders whether he should change the tokenizer to allow R?CDATA elements to have non-ASCII names, but seeming it's an anti-optimization, decides against it
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  228. # [16:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why do you want to split it out?
  229. # [16:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: To have multiple different InputStream classes, esp. one for files
  230. # [16:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah
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  233. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Huh… line 751 tokenizer.py
  234. # [17:03] <gsnedders> Will that not match D followed by any permutation of the characters OTYPE (with repetition allowed)?
  235. # [17:04] <gsnedders> s/O/OC/
  236. # [17:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: No
  237. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Oh, duh.
  238. # [17:06] * gsnedders realizes how dumb that was
  239. # [17:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: It loops with expected=('o', 'O') first and checks the next character against that, etc
  240. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Exactly.
  241. # [17:12] <gsnedders> The difficulty of doing this is mainly because the PHP impl assumes it is a string so it has look-ahead and look-behind for the entire input data.
  242. # [17:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-76-173-121-31.socal.res.rr.com)
  243. # [17:16] <Philip`> I don't think the Python version ever did that, but it did assume it could arbitrarily consume and unconsume characters whenever it fancied
  244. # [17:20] <takkaria> yeah, if you can optimise your tokeniser never to use look-behind, that can give you good performance benefits
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  247. # [17:27] <gsnedders> We need to look-behind per spec, but we can't look behind in, e.g., an http file resource.
  248. # [17:31] * gsnedders finally makes it to the final method
  249. # [17:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why do we need to use look-behind per spec?
  250. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Oh, no, we don't.
  251. # [17:38] <gsnedders> It's just both PHP and Python impl consume too much :P
  252. # [17:38] <Philip`> It needs look-ahead, which I guess would look like look-behind from a different perspective
  253. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Yeah, indeed.
  254. # [17:43] <gsnedders> The Python deviates from the spec quite a lot when consuming an entity.
  255. # [17:46] <Philip`> The spec isn't written a way that can be efficiently implemented
  256. # [17:46] <Philip`> *in
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  274. # [22:12] <hsivonen> "Gregory: What I need to do is to proselytize the use of RDFa for accessibility"
  275. # [22:12] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2009/05/13-xhtml-minutes.html
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  278. # [22:22] <Dashiva> "Gregory: I would like to a DTD for XHTML 1.1+RDFa+Aria... +role"
  279. # [22:23] <Dashiva> DTD proliferation :)
  280. # [22:26] <Philip`> Sounds like a scalability problem for the W3C, if the number of DTDs they have to host is exponential in the number of technologies they specify
  281. # [22:29] <gsnedders> It's factorial, not exponential.
  282. # [22:30] <gsnedders> Stop trying to paint the W3C in good light :P
  283. # [22:30] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  284. # [22:30] <Philip`> I'm pretty sure it's exponential
  285. # [22:31] <Philip`> If you have n technologies, then for each technology you can decide to either add it to the DTD or not
  286. # [22:31] <Philip`> which means you have a choice between 2 values, n times
  287. # [22:31] <Philip`> which results in 2^n possible choices
  288. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Permutations
  289. # [22:32] <gsnedders> You have the number of permutations of specs you have.
  290. # [22:33] <Philip`> No you don't
  291. # [22:33] <Philip`> Order doesn't matter
  292. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Ah, true.
  293. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Duh.
  294. # [22:34] <Philip`> And it's not combinations (nCr) either, because r is not restricted to a single value
  295. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Yeah, true.
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  297. # [22:35] <Philip`> (Obviously it wouldn't be exactly 2^n, because nobody's going to want the DTD that contains zero technologies)
  298. # [22:35] <Philip`> (but it'll be O(2^n))
  299. # [22:40] <gsnedders> 2^n-1, no?
  300. # [22:41] <Philip`> Nooooo!
  301. # [22:41] <Philip`> Constants are ugly
  302. # [22:41] <gsnedders> :D
  303. # [22:41] <Philip`> Just call it O(2^n) :-p
  304. # [22:46] <Dashiva> Order matters if UAs do string matching
  305. # [22:47] <Dashiva> Poor code :(
  306. # [22:49] <Philip`> They can use a canonical ordering
  307. # [22:49] <gsnedders> \sum_{r=1}^{n} nPr then
  308. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Ow.
  309. # [22:49] <Philip`> so that there aren't multiple orderings of the same set of technologies
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  311. # [22:53] <Dashiva> What about when users start writing the doctype names by hand?
  312. # [22:53] <Philip`> Throw a fatal error if they didn't use the canonical ordering
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  315. # [23:31] <Hixie> i am baffled
  316. # [23:32] <Hixie> when i said last call was october 2009 in 2006, html5 was accused of glacial progress
  317. # [23:32] <Hixie> when i say last call is october 2009 in 2009, html5 is accused of going too fast
  318. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Logic? Peh.
  319. # [23:33] * gsnedders throws it out
  320. # [23:36] <inimino> that's only baffling if it's the same people making both sets of accusations
  321. # [23:42] <gsnedders> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sneddon-atom-export-01.txt — feedback welcome.
  322. # [23:43] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  323. # [23:45] * gsnedders wonders what to do about IRI for atom:category@scheme
  324. # [23:48] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  325. # [23:48] <Philip`> gsnedders: It would be nice if the abstract said what it was actually about
  326. # [23:48] <Philip`> (In particular, what it's meant to be exporting, and from where)
  327. # [23:49] <hober> gsnedders: sounds like a description of the backing store I use for my blog :)
  328. # [23:53] * gsnedders makes another tweet probably nobody will understand
  329. # Session Close: Sun May 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)