/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-26 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue May 26 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:08] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@84.202.133.45)
  4. # [00:42] <Hixie> hm, larry is right. the wg isn't chartered to produce the current html5 draft. i guess we'd better start over.
  5. # [00:44] <annevk4> you don't think it's still evolved from HTML4 if you look at the features?
  6. # [00:44] <Hixie> nope, not evolved at all, it's a whole new language. woe is us we made a terrible mistake.
  7. # [00:45] <Philip`> According to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ we have a week before we're scheduled to reach CR - that seems plenty of time to download a copy of the HTML4 spec and then paste some of the new features into it
  8. # [00:45] <annevk4> Hixie, mu
  9. # [00:45] <annevk4> Philip`, could try to give HTML4 a proper CR phase and see what happens :)
  10. # [00:46] <Hixie> well i sure hope someone volunteers to do that, i'm too tired from writing the last draft, which turned out to be totally the wrong thing and which we are now forced to throw away.
  11. # [00:46] <Hixie> maybe larry can write it
  12. # [00:47] <othermaciej> I didn't read Larry's walls of text yet
  13. # [00:47] <othermaciej> should I?
  14. # [00:48] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  15. # [00:48] <annevk4> this is about a much shorter email it seems
  16. # [00:48] <annevk4> subject line ending in "(from scratch)"
  17. # [00:49] <annevk4> I think I'll go read something and go to bed
  18. # [00:49] <annevk4> not really interested in another roundtable of discussing this; not too sure why I put effort into it today
  19. # [00:52] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-945971dabbdcb1f1)
  20. # [00:54] * Quits: mhausenblas (n=mhausenb@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  21. # [00:59] * Quits: annevk4 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  22. # [01:00] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-66-131.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  23. # [01:02] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  24. # [01:15] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64)
  25. # [01:24] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  26. # [01:39] <Hixie> ok, today's e-mail has been dealt with
  27. # [01:39] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  28. # [01:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: I do think that sometimes conformance requirements stated in algorithmic form can be harder to work with, if you are not implementing the algorithm literally
  29. # [01:43] <Hixie> i agree
  30. # [01:43] <othermaciej> but to me that takes a back seat to precision
  31. # [01:44] <othermaciej> for example, for img.width and img.height
  32. # [01:44] <othermaciej> there's probably the following important criteria:
  33. # [01:44] <Hixie> if there are any algorithms that someone can find a non-algorithmic way to describe the same requirements, let me know
  34. # [01:44] <othermaciej> - the height and width should be either 0 or the correct value
  35. # [01:44] <othermaciej> - the height and width should only change from 0 to the final value barring the final load, no intermediate different values
  36. # [01:45] <othermaciej> - height and width should be available no later than the "load" even
  37. # [01:45] <othermaciej> *event
  38. # [01:45] <othermaciej> - height and width should be available at the same time
  39. # [01:45] <othermaciej> I'm not sure all of these can be easily inferred from the algorithm, simple though it is
  40. # [01:46] <othermaciej> for parsing it is likely impossible to express equivalent requirements in declarative rather than as-if imperative form
  41. # [01:46] <othermaciej> I haven't really studied the spec with an eye to this
  42. # [01:46] <othermaciej> I would expect improvements along these lines, and pointing out where the spec overconstrains implementations, will happen in CR
  43. # [01:47] <othermaciej> Larry seems to underestimate how different the internals of different browser engines are, at least when it comes to details
  44. # [01:48] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-245-234.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  45. # [01:49] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.201.125)
  46. # [01:50] <Hixie> i think your height/width definitions miss some things
  47. # [01:51] <Hixie> e.g. that the values are the rendered dimensions not the actual dimensions
  48. # [01:51] <Hixie> when the image is rendered
  49. # [01:51] <othermaciej> it wasn't intended to be complete
  50. # [01:51] <Hixie> ok
  51. # [01:51] <Hixie> the problem is that making it complete ends up taking three times more room than what we have now
  52. # [01:51] <othermaciej> I was just thinking about some things that I am pretty sure are needed for interoperability
  53. # [01:51] <Hixie> and it's not clear that it's better
  54. # [01:51] <othermaciej> it wasn't suggested to be an alternative
  55. # [01:51] <Hixie> yeah
  56. # [01:52] <Hixie> larry seems to want an alternative though
  57. # [01:52] <othermaciej> it was a thought experiment, to see if the current conformance requirements imply the things that are needed for interop
  58. # [01:52] <Hixie> ah i see
  59. # [01:52] <othermaciej> my impression is that the most important for non-rendered images is that you have width and height by the time load occurs
  60. # [01:53] <othermaciej> I think an image has to be "available" by the present definition no later than the time the "load" event is fired
  61. # [01:53] <othermaciej> I think width and height becoming available at the same time likely matters for interop, even though Larry thought that was an overconstraint
  62. # [01:54] <Hixie> yes, 'load' fires by definition after the image is 'available'
  63. # [01:54] <Hixie> per spec
  64. # [01:55] <othermaciej> he may have a point that the spec overconstrains things needlessly at times, though his specific example does not seem to me a very good one
  65. # [01:55] <othermaciej> plus I do think implementors often point it out when there are overconstraints
  66. # [01:55] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  67. # [01:56] <othermaciej> (consider e.g. concerns arising from multiprocess rendering and various serial behavior rules)
  68. # [01:56] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  69. # [01:56] <othermaciej> but still, I'd prefer overconstraint to the sever underspecification of HTML4
  70. # [01:57] <othermaciej> the cost of an unnecessary conformance requirement is less than the cost of a missing one
  71. # [01:57] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [01:57] <othermaciej> if one assumes the spec will continue to be maintained
  73. # [01:58] <Hixie> i'm sure the spec is both over- and under-constrained in parts
  74. # [01:58] <Hixie> since i am sadly not perfect :-)
  75. # [01:58] <othermaciej> anyway, even if I disagree with Larry on many things, I think his substantive commentary using a concrete example is much more helpful than title trolling
  76. # [01:58] <Hixie> it's certainly a step up
  77. # [01:58] <annevk4> Hixie, I mentioned earlier over IRC that "valid image" and still being downloaded are somewhat at odds with each other
  78. # [01:58] <Hixie> i can actually address his concerns when he mentions them
  79. # [01:58] <othermaciej> as was Sam's identification of a specific issue bothering him
  80. # [01:59] <Hixie> annevk4: i removed "valid image" from the spec a few minutes ago
  81. # [01:59] <othermaciej> since it turns out that issue is already slated to be fixe
  82. # [01:59] <annevk4> Hixie, I suppose that helps :)
  83. # [01:59] <Hixie> the content-sniffing thing?
  84. # [01:59] <Hixie> adam said he's doing some work on it next week
  85. # [01:59] <Hixie> iirc
  86. # [02:00] <Hixie> and then we can submit it for rfc or something
  87. # [02:00] <Hixie> i don't fully understand how the ietf works
  88. # [02:00] <Hixie> did you know that once you submit an rfc, you can no longer fix it?
  89. # [02:00] * Quits: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  90. # [02:00] <Hixie> it's amazing there are only a few thousand rfcs so far, given that
  91. # [02:00] <Hixie> i guess errors just go unfixed for years
  92. # [02:01] <othermaciej> so there's no provision for errata, you have to make a new RFC?
  93. # [02:02] <othermaciej> that seems kind of wacky, it would be like locking down a W3C spec at FPWD
  94. # [02:03] <othermaciej> and yeah it is amazing how rarely there are updates to fix errors
  95. # [02:03] <annevk4> I saw you can report errata against an RFC in some fashion (not sure if it's official)
  96. # [02:03] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  97. # [02:04] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-945971dabbdcb1f1)
  98. # [02:04] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  99. # [02:04] <Hixie> i believe they consider RFC publication more like CR
  100. # [02:07] <annevk4> e.g. with URIs it took several RFCs to become a STD
  101. # [02:07] <othermaciej> yeah but it seems like even the "Proposed Standard" state is one where one would expect further changes are needed
  102. # [02:07] <othermaciej> there's nothing wrong per se with using a new RFC number for that
  103. # [02:07] <othermaciej> just surprising it hasn't happened more
  104. # [02:09] <othermaciej> interesting, RFC2068 was a Proposed Standard but RFC2616 which obsoleted it isn't yet (a decade after coming out)
  105. # [02:13] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-c002595c8d0bfdb5)
  106. # [02:14] * Joins: Rik|work_ (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  107. # [02:17] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  108. # [02:18] <Hixie> annevk4: any idea what happens when you set xhr.responseXML.body.onload ?
  109. # [02:18] <Hixie> (re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6515 )
  110. # [02:20] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-c002595c8d0bfdb5)
  111. # [02:21] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-b2c117fe52b5c44f)
  112. # [02:21] <annevk4> it seems that by the time you can access that it has already fired
  113. # [02:21] <annevk4> but no, I haven't tested
  114. # [02:23] <Hixie> fired? i would have presumed that no events ever fire on those documents
  115. # [02:23] <Hixie> by the ua, anyway
  116. # [02:23] <Hixie> i shall poke around
  117. # [02:26] <annevk4> you once made a testcase with form submission in such a document and expected submit to fire
  118. # [02:26] <annevk4> and it did
  119. # [02:26] <annevk4> iirc
  120. # [02:27] <Hixie> ah
  121. # [02:28] <annevk4> http://twitter.com/heycam/status/1918008204 hehe
  122. # [02:28] <Hixie> i don't understand why this is an issue for html but not svg
  123. # [02:29] <Hixie> did the svgwg get feedback along the lines of "you should have a subtitle that says you're a browser spec"?
  124. # [02:29] <heycam> SVG Tiny 1.2: A specification that defines an XML-based vector graphics language, associated APIs, and other APIs for non-graphics related things that we needed but weren't specified elsewhere
  125. # [02:29] <heycam> nope
  126. # [02:29] <annevk4> Hixie, it did get feedback that it did too much
  127. # [02:30] <heycam> but not that it needed to call that out in the title
  128. # [02:30] <heycam> (and in the end we did rip a lot of stuff out)
  129. # [02:30] <annevk4> right
  130. # [02:30] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  131. # [02:31] <annevk4> but don't tell people they're using the title as an argument for something else because they don't like that
  132. # [02:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  133. # [02:35] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  134. # [02:35] <annevk4> hmm yeah, SVG 1.2 didn't call out any of those things in title/subtitle/abstract
  135. # [02:35] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  136. # [02:36] <annevk4> but I don't really have a problem with calling out page load processing in the subtitle/abstract
  137. # [02:46] <Hixie> i was considering coming up with a boatload of alternative subtitles
  138. # [02:46] <Hixie> and just cycling through them using a script
  139. # [02:46] <Hixie> so every time you load the spec it gives you a new one
  140. # [02:47] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@84.202.133.45) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  141. # [02:47] <othermaciej> that would be lols
  142. # [02:53] <annevk4> not exactly a new concept: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ :)
  143. # [02:54] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  144. # [02:55] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  145. # [03:03] * annevk4 takes another stab at sleeping
  146. # [03:03] * Quits: annevk4 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  147. # [03:11] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  148. # [03:20] * Joins: olliej_ (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-3a39f0cdceb65fe7)
  149. # [03:20] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-b2c117fe52b5c44f) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  150. # [03:25] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-55785ea14a43b15a)
  151. # [03:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-14-95.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  152. # [03:33] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  153. # [03:35] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-39-244.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  154. # [03:38] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-10-17.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  155. # [03:39] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.201.125) (Remote closed the connection)
  156. # [03:39] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  157. # [03:48] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-229.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  158. # [03:50] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  159. # [03:55] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  160. # [03:58] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.205.93)
  161. # [03:59] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  162. # [04:00] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  163. # [04:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  164. # [04:04] * Joins: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  165. # [04:06] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  166. # [04:13] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  167. # [04:15] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  168. # [04:18] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  169. # [04:18] * Quits: olliej_ (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-3a39f0cdceb65fe7) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  170. # [04:22] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  171. # [04:25] * othermaciej__ is now known as othermaciej
  172. # [04:27] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.205.93) (Remote closed the connection)
  173. # [04:30] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  174. # [04:30] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1) (Client Quit)
  175. # [04:30] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  176. # [04:32] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  177. # [04:32] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  178. # [04:43] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  179. # [04:43] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  180. # [04:52] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  181. # [04:52] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  182. # [05:03] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  183. # [05:20] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  184. # [05:24] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  185. # [05:32] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  186. # [05:32] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  187. # [05:35] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  188. # [05:41] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  189. # [05:51] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  190. # [05:52] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  191. # [06:03] <Hixie> oooh tough one
  192. # [06:03] <Hixie> marquee has some custom event handler attributes
  193. # [06:03] <Hixie> do i add them to the general set?
  194. # [06:03] <Hixie> or do i make marquee an exception?
  195. # [06:04] <Hixie> you know, i think the thing i find annoying about a lot of the people who keep complaining about html5 in various ways is that they never give advice for cases like this
  196. # [06:04] <Hixie> so it feels like they're complaining and complaining but not ever being constructive in areas that aren't their pet peeve
  197. # [06:09] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  198. # [06:09] <sayrer> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.php
  199. # [06:09] <sayrer> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.php
  200. # [06:09] <sayrer> fwiw
  201. # [06:09] <sayrer> most errata lists I've encountered seem to be informally
  202. # [06:10] <sayrer> maintained
  203. # [06:10] <sayrer> like, by people who actually need to consult them
  204. # [06:14] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  205. # [06:15] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  206. # [06:15] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1) (Remote closed the connection)
  207. # [06:16] <Hixie> doesn't seem to have any serious errata for any of the rfcs i looked at
  208. # [06:23] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  209. # [06:42] <Hixie> i feel like leif is trying to make a point but i have no idea what that point is
  210. # [06:43] <Hixie> i wish he'd just come out and say it instead of quoting me and implying his point
  211. # [06:48] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  212. # [06:54] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  213. # [06:57] <sayrer> Hixie, there is a provision for errata, that's all
  214. # [06:57] <sayrer> and, you can sort of just make them
  215. # [06:57] <sayrer> like the HTTP errata that were maintained for years
  216. # [06:57] <Hixie> indeed
  217. # [06:57] <Hixie> errata are a poor way of maintaining specs, though, as I learnt with CSS
  218. # [06:58] <sayrer> sure, when the http-bis thing started
  219. # [06:58] <sayrer> figuring out what to do with the errata was a problem
  220. # [06:59] <sayrer> dang, larry found a section of the spec I would like to delete
  221. # [06:59] <sayrer> I guess the little google summaries might count
  222. # [07:00] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  223. # [07:06] <othermaciej> the Outline section?
  224. # [07:06] <othermaciej> I am not really sure what that is for
  225. # [07:06] <othermaciej> what kind of client produces or displays an outline?
  226. # [07:07] <Hixie> accessibility tools, amongst others
  227. # [07:07] <Hixie> but that section is present not so much for tools, so much as to make sure that it is well-defined what the heading is for each part of the document
  228. # [07:07] <othermaciej> VoiceOver doesn't make an outline and if it did, I'm not sure it would necessarily want to use that algorithm to compute it
  229. # [07:08] <Hixie> one of the questions that kept coming up with html4 was "what exactly is my document structure"
  230. # [07:08] <othermaciej> perhaps "what the heading is for each part of the document" has more immediate relevance
  231. # [07:09] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-220-223.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  232. # [07:12] <sayrer> well-defined sounds pretty circular
  233. # [07:13] * Joins: mhausenblas (n=mhausenb@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  234. # [07:13] <sayrer> Hixie, interesting use of passive voice. who was asking the question?
  235. # [07:21] <Hixie> many people
  236. # [07:21] <Hixie> i didn't take names
  237. # [07:22] <othermaciej> really in practical terms this section is only defining semantics, not conformance requirements for typical UAs
  238. # [07:22] <othermaciej> but doing it in algorithm terms
  239. # [07:22] <Hixie> yes
  240. # [07:22] <Hixie> i'm happy to phrase it in non-algorithmic terms if anyone can come up with a sane way of describing it that way
  241. # [07:22] <Hixie> i couldn't work out how to do it
  242. # [07:25] <othermaciej> I don't find the definition of this particular piece of semantics very important
  243. # [07:25] <othermaciej> I can see how it might be hard to define in purely declarative terms without potentially missing cases
  244. # [07:31] <hsivonen> pasting some URLs for to have a record in the log:
  245. # [07:32] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/1608188445
  246. # [07:32] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/1352144527
  247. # [07:32] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/1344855975
  248. # [07:32] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/1464529893
  249. # [07:32] <hsivonen> (end of flood)
  250. # [07:34] * othermaciej is not sure he gets the theme there
  251. # [07:34] <hsivonen> seems like jd considers the variability of HTML runtimes a problem, so I guess HTML5 should err on the side off well-defined behavior
  252. # [07:35] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no)
  253. # [07:41] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  254. # [07:46] <othermaciej> oh you're quoting the Adobe trollblogger?
  255. # [07:52] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'm quoting the Adobe Flash blogger who seems to blog a lot about HTML these days
  256. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> johnny one-note
  257. # [07:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: after reading some of his recent posts, I stand by my prior assertion
  258. # [07:57] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: do you have administrative access to the w3c CVS server?
  259. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah
  260. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> sorta
  261. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> I have access to the actual filesystem where the cvs ,v files are
  262. # [08:01] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  263. # [08:04] <othermaciej> yeah, he's basically Adobe's Asa Dotzler
  264. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> another possible competitor in this race -
  265. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/mattmay/status/1884053829
  266. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> but I think he'll need to try harder than that if he really wants to win it
  267. # [08:10] <othermaciej> it makes Adobe look sad and desparate to try to fight against HTML having more features
  268. # [08:12] <Hixie> i don't think matt is fighting html having more features in that twitter
  269. # [08:13] <Hixie> since leaving the w3c would make progress on html5 far quicker and easier
  270. # [08:13] <Hixie> if anything, he's fighting _for_ html having more features
  271. # [08:13] * Quits: shikiesos (n=shiki@220.109.219.244) ("Leaving.")
  272. # [08:14] <othermaciej> I wonder why John likes the catchphrase "browser brands" so much
  273. # [08:14] <othermaciej> why does he say that instead of "browsers"? is that an Adobe thing?
  274. # [08:14] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  275. # [08:15] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  276. # [08:16] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  277. # [08:16] * Mrmil is now known as Ollie
  278. # [08:16] * Parts: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  279. # [08:16] * Joins: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  280. # [08:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the impression I get is that he wants to portray browsers as different chrome designs
  281. # [08:17] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.85.210.194) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  282. # [08:17] <othermaciej> but wouldn't that portray the engines as essentially interchangeable?
  283. # [08:17] <othermaciej> which is contrary to his point?
  284. # [08:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I suppose
  285. # [08:18] * Parts: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  286. # [08:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: although I think the point is that you pick your favorite toolbar and run Flash in the space below it
  287. # [08:18] <othermaciej> ah
  288. # [08:20] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  289. # [08:20] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  290. # [08:22] <othermaciej_> "browser brand" is not a very common phrase outside his blog
  291. # [08:22] <othermaciej_> but yeah I can see how he might want to take the "browsers are just Flash loaders" position
  292. # [08:35] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.38)
  293. # [08:37] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  294. # [08:38] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  295. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: when you have a few minutes, I could use a bit of help figuring out how to write a test for valid surrogate pairs in accesskey values
  296. # [08:40] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-87d6b1cfa16eabb3)
  297. # [08:43] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  298. # [08:43] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  299. # [08:44] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yt?
  300. # [08:47] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  301. # [08:48] <Hixie> zcorpan_: am now
  302. # [08:55] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  303. # [08:59] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  304. # [09:02] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0375.html seems to be a great example of how to abuse the design principles
  305. # [09:09] <Hixie> it's more an example of not understanding the principles
  306. # [09:09] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-150-156.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  307. # [09:09] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-73.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  308. # [09:09] <Hixie> it might be worth just removing the names of the principles and just numbering them
  309. # [09:09] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  310. # [09:11] <othermaciej> tempting! but would make it hard to cite them
  311. # [09:12] <Hixie> that's the point :-)
  312. # [09:12] <Hixie> it would also mean that they couldn't be mischaracterised based on their names
  313. # [09:13] <Hixie> but seriously, the biggest problem with the design principles is that people have tried to apply them like blind rules
  314. # [09:13] <Hixie> instead of taking them as what they are -- principles of design
  315. # [09:15] <Dashiva> Could give them code names. Easier to remember without having names to infer meaning from
  316. # [09:16] <othermaciej> people also object to the fact that I said they are just guidelines and rules of thumb not absolute laws
  317. # [09:16] <othermaciej> the one that bugs me the most abuse-wise is "Pave the Cowpaths"
  318. # [09:16] <othermaciej> where opponents of it keep claiming it is being misused
  319. # [09:16] <othermaciej> in a way that, as far as I can tell, no one in favor of the principle actually does
  320. # [09:19] <Hixie> people always do that
  321. # [09:19] <Hixie> it's the same as the way people quote my "handling-people" file and say "look! he's doing this and that!" when they are losing an argument
  322. # [09:19] <hsivonen> looks like removing the head of the pin generates more heat than deciding how many angels can dance on it
  323. # [09:19] <hsivonen> (profile)
  324. # [09:19] <othermaciej> how dare you use the 2 + 2 = 4 principle to claim that 1 + 1 is an odd number!
  325. # [09:19] <othermaciej> that's an abuse of the principle!
  326. # [09:19] <othermaciej> "... wait, what?"
  327. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: does one lose an argument if one catches someone else than you practicing "handling people"?
  328. # [09:21] <Hixie> there's never any benefit to pointing it out, since people would always just deny it
  329. # [09:21] * hsivonen looked up the sabotage manual from Gutenberg the other day
  330. # [09:21] <Hixie> that file is just useful as a way to know what to look for
  331. # [09:21] <Hixie> since once you spot someone doing something from that list, you can then apply appropriate countermeasures
  332. # [09:21] <Hixie> instead of falling into their trap
  333. # [09:23] <zcorpan_> Hixie: we're implementing spellcheck, so if you're going to simplify the algorithm, we'd appreciate if you did it soonish :)
  334. # [09:24] <Hixie> noted
  335. # [09:26] <othermaciej> crap, I forgot that IE means I can't use CSS generated content
  336. # [09:27] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: ie8 supports it
  337. # [09:27] <othermaciej> would it be ok for W3C documents to be IE8-and-up?
  338. # [09:27] <zcorpan_> sure
  339. # [09:27] <zcorpan_> i'm sure the html5 spec doesn't work correctly in ie :)
  340. # [09:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-14-95.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  341. # [09:28] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-39-244.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  342. # [09:29] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: although you should expect people to complain because they use ie7 and a screen reader and now you're against blind people
  343. # [09:29] <othermaciej> well
  344. # [09:30] <othermaciej> I could preface every example with the words "Example:" by hand
  345. # [09:30] <othermaciej> but that seems annoying
  346. # [09:30] <othermaciej> was trying to decide whether to do that instead of a :before rule
  347. # [09:31] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: the html5 spec uses generated content to insert "Note:" and "Warning:"
  348. # [09:32] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  349. # [09:32] <Hixie> the spec gen script will eventually do this for us
  350. # [09:32] <Hixie> once gsnedders is out of school or whatever
  351. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> when you're in school you have plenty of time
  352. # [09:33] <othermaciej> would anyone like to request quick fixes to the Design Principles or point out errors, while I am editing?
  353. # [09:33] <Hixie> baby steps!
  354. # [09:33] <Hixie> baby steps!
  355. # [09:34] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: i sent an email before
  356. # [09:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: oh that's right
  357. # [09:35] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: s/irrelevant/hidden/
  358. # [09:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: I was thinking of changing Evolution not Revolution to "Incremental Improvement" so it can include the spirit of "baby steps" without causing a fight over the name "baby steps"
  359. # [09:35] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: thanks!
  360. # [09:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think that's too substantive a change to sneak in with minor edits though
  361. # [09:35] <Hixie> i don't care what you call it, but the key point is not adding so many new features that implementors get lost behind and never catch up
  362. # [09:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think you might already be ahead of the curve on that...
  363. # [09:36] <Hixie> yeah
  364. # [09:36] <othermaciej> although there aren't many things I would call for removing at the moment
  365. # [09:36] <Hixie> hence how important it is!
  366. # [09:36] <Hixie> it was on my feedback on that survey n years ago
  367. # [09:36] <Hixie> on the list of things i'd like to see before we publish
  368. # [09:36] <Hixie> if that helps :-)
  369. # [09:37] * Joins: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  370. # [09:37] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-73.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  371. # [09:38] <othermaciej> I guess I can include it as part of addressing the old feedback
  372. # [09:39] * zcorpan_ ponders about an example to Solve Real Problems
  373. # [09:40] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-70.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  374. # [09:41] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  375. # [09:42] <Hixie> Ollie: hi :-)
  376. # [09:43] <othermaciej> would anyone care to help me proofread http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=1.24 before I note it on the list?
  377. # [09:43] <Ollie> Hixie: Hi there :)
  378. # [09:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: "The working group is working on a new version of HTML not yet published under TR" is no longer accurate
  379. # [09:44] <Dashiva> gsnedders: For extra credit, show this to the teacher: http://2.media.tumblr.com/9pDtThz04nxemo71EGVHHWQgo1_500.gif
  380. # [09:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'll read
  381. # [09:45] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-245-234.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  382. # [09:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it's no longer the *First* public WD
  383. # [09:45] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what Hixie said
  384. # [09:46] <othermaciej> fixed what Hixie said, changed front matter to say "an Editor's Draft"
  385. # [09:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it's probably unnecessary to put the vote tally up there
  386. # [09:47] <othermaciej> where is there a vote tally?
  387. # [09:47] <Hixie> in the SotD
  388. # [09:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes. the next paragraph after that is odd, too
  389. # [09:47] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  390. # [09:47] <othermaciej> should I just remove that part?
  391. # [09:48] <othermaciej> I think I will
  392. # [09:48] <othermaciej> removed both those paragraphs
  393. # [09:48] <hsivonen> thanks
  394. # [09:49] * Rik|work_ is now known as Rik|work
  395. # [09:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't think "Evolution Not Revolution" really conveys the "do things slowly" approach i think is important
  396. # [09:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't think it does either!
  397. # [09:50] <othermaciej> I would like to edit it to do so in addition to changing the title
  398. # [09:50] <Hixie> k
  399. # [09:50] <othermaciej> changing the name rather
  400. # [09:50] <othermaciej> I think one principle can cover both concepts
  401. # [09:50] <othermaciej> don't boil the ocean, and don't try to do too much at one go
  402. # [09:50] <othermaciej> if I may speak in shorthand
  403. # [09:52] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@084202133045.customer.alfanett.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  404. # [09:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: looks good. However, I notice that you didn't bother to annotate each priciple by saying if it applies to conforming language or supported language
  405. # [09:57] <othermaciej> I guess that's another thing I should fix as part of the next pass
  406. # [09:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  407. # [10:07] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  408. # [10:07] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  409. # [10:08] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  410. # [10:08] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-66-131.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  411. # [10:10] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  412. # [10:10] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  413. # [10:11] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  414. # [10:16] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  415. # [10:21] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-0cafe6484fdfed80)
  416. # [10:23] * Joins: BARTdG (n=BARTdG@92.64.111.89)
  417. # [10:30] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-377fe0112ece7aa6)
  418. # [10:31] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  419. # [10:31] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  420. # [10:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  421. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> use of Unicode surrogate pairs is restricted to content encoded in UTF-16, right?
  422. # [10:50] <Hixie> in theory
  423. # [10:52] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@194.102.13.6)
  424. # [10:53] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  425. # [10:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  426. # [10:53] * mhausenblas is now known as who
  427. # [10:53] * who is now known as mhausenblas
  428. # [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: scripts could introduce lone surrogates to pages that had any encoding
  429. # [10:57] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  430. # [10:58] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  431. # [11:04] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  432. # [13:06] * Disconnected
  433. # [13:06] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  434. # [13:06] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  435. # [13:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  436. # [13:06] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  437. # [15:06] * Disconnected
  438. # [15:06] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  439. # [15:06] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  440. # [15:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  441. # [15:06] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  442. # [15:27] * Disconnected
  443. # [15:27] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  444. # [15:27] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  445. # [15:27] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  446. # [15:27] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  447. # [15:51] * Disconnected
  448. # [15:51] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  449. # [15:51] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  450. # [15:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  451. # [15:51] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  452. # [15:59] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.38)
  453. # [16:05] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.203.115)
  454. # [16:07] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  455. # [16:08] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  456. # [16:12] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  457. # [16:18] <annevk42> so I follow a link to sitepoint and say yes to answering some survey
  458. # [16:18] <annevk42> first question "Based on today's visit, how would you rate your site experience overall?" ...
  459. # [16:19] <annevk42> second "Which of the following best describes the primary purpose of your visit?" doesn't list "following a link" as one of the options...
  460. # [16:19] <annevk42> third "Were you able to complete the purpose of your visit today?" only gives yes/no
  461. # [16:20] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  462. # [16:20] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-136-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  463. # [16:23] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  464. # [16:25] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.97.93) (Connection timed out)
  465. # [16:35] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  466. # [16:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-213-191.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  467. # [16:36] * Joins: jgalvez (n=jgalvez@201-68-27-149.dsl.telesp.net.br)
  468. # [16:38] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  469. # [16:38] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  470. # [16:48] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  471. # [16:48] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  472. # [16:53] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  473. # [16:56] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  474. # [17:00] * Parts: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  475. # [17:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  476. # [17:04] * Joins: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  477. # [17:04] * Parts: Ollie (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  478. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  479. # [17:05] * Joins: philipj__ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  480. # [17:09] * Parts: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-110-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  481. # [17:09] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  482. # [17:09] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-110-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  483. # [17:11] * Quits: BARTdG (n=BARTdG@92.64.111.89)
  484. # [17:12] * Quits: philipj_ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  485. # [17:16] * Parts: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-110-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  486. # [17:19] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  487. # [17:33] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  488. # [17:34] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-18-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  489. # [17:36] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip147.unival.com)
  490. # [17:38] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-0dedee2fad8380ac)
  491. # [17:53] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-67.cs.uni-dortmund.de) ("Verlassend")
  492. # [17:53] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  493. # [17:54] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@114.51.9.182) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  494. # [17:57] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  495. # [18:02] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  496. # [18:03] * Quits: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  497. # [18:07] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  498. # [18:08] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-130-180.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  499. # [18:08] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-18-98.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  500. # [18:09] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-164-130-180.range86-164.btcentralplus.com)
  501. # [18:09] * Joins: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  502. # [18:10] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@114.51.148.255)
  503. # [18:22] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.153.121.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  504. # [20:22] * Disconnected
  505. # [20:23] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  506. # [20:23] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  507. # [20:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  508. # [20:23] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  509. # [22:23] * Disconnected
  510. # [22:23] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  511. # [22:23] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  512. # [22:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  513. # [22:23] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  514. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Oh well, I guess we should change the interface then :D
  515. # [22:25] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-136-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  516. # [22:25] <jgraham> Dashiva: good point
  517. # [22:26] <hsivonen> cgriego: not deployed. I'll deploy it in 12 hours or so
  518. # [22:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: LOL
  519. # [22:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: I do like how you're using my implementation of the outlining algorithm as an example and not your own
  520. # [22:28] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-171-214.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  521. # [22:32] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-b6cc58c788fd77f4)
  522. # [22:34] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-220-223.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  523. # [22:35] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  524. # [22:36] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  525. # [22:37] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.180)
  526. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  527. # [22:43] * Quits: mhausenblas (n=mhausenb@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  528. # [22:53] <ezyang> I think the doctype syntax is also ambiguous
  529. # [22:53] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  530. # [22:54] <ezyang> Since if I only specify systemId, it's not distinguishable from publicId
  531. # [22:56] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-757d1892e40bd90a) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  532. # [22:57] <ezyang> Anyway, pushed the DOM -> test format converter.
  533. # [22:57] <ezyang> Probably the most dirty piece of code I've written in a long while.
  534. # [23:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yours has the advantage of being relatively well tested and well commented
  535. # [23:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's almost entirely untested, it's just people rely upon it!
  536. # [23:08] <gsnedders> (Those idiots)
  537. # [23:10] <ezyang> Developers want shiny things NAO.
  538. # [23:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is known to work in some situations
  539. # [23:11] <jgraham> In other news we should write some tests for this stuff
  540. # [23:11] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  541. # [23:11] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@17.246.16.204)
  542. # [23:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: "news"? :D
  543. # [23:12] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  544. # [23:13] <jgraham> News of the form "MPs claim everything they can on expenses" i.e. everyone already knew, it has been explicit for months and yet it is still "news"
  545. # [23:14] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.206.203)
  546. # [23:14] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  547. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  548. # [23:18] <ezyang> Excellent! 369 failures, but at least it doesn't fatally error out.
  549. # [23:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: BTW, do you have exams? When?
  550. # [23:19] <ezyang> It looks like there are some stray newlines
  551. # [23:19] <ezyang> gsnedders: I'm done with exams ;-)
  552. # [23:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: re your latest tweet, @id :)
  553. # [23:19] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  554. # [23:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: Ah, I still have one to go.
  555. # [23:19] <ezyang> Ok. So they totally got rid of it?
  556. # [23:19] <ezyang> Heh
  557. # [23:19] <gsnedders> yeah
  558. # [23:19] <ezyang> Good luck mate
  559. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Like, computing exam. The one I haven't done any work for all year. The one I got 77/80 in the coursework. The one I barely need to pass to get a A.
  560. # [23:20] <ezyang> Oh hoho
  561. # [23:20] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  562. # [23:20] <gsnedders> I had physics exam… I was thirty minutes late, because I thought it was on Thursday, until I got a phone call from school!
  563. # [23:21] <gsnedders> s/…/today…/
  564. # [23:21] <ezyang> You're scott free. Play video games or work on html5lib or something
  565. # [23:21] <ezyang> Eek. At least they called.
  566. # [23:21] <gsnedders> ezyang: Hixie's answer would be work on Anolis :)
  567. # [23:21] <ezyang> I'm still not quite sure what anolis is.
  568. # [23:21] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  569. # [23:21] <gsnedders> An HTML document post-processor :P
  570. # [23:22] <gsnedders> (Sorry, that's what I call it because I couldn't really work out what to call it.)
  571. # [23:22] <ezyang> Ohh, like XHTML Compiler?
  572. # [23:22] <gsnedders> What?
  573. # [23:22] <ezyang> It like, takes HTML files and turns them into more awesome HTML files
  574. # [23:23] <gsnedders> What it does is take HTML files and turn them into more awesome HTML files with things like a table of contents and cross-references.
  575. # [23:23] <ezyang> Yeah. I've done this before.
  576. # [23:23] <ezyang> That's neat. What's the language?
  577. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Python.
  578. # [23:23] <gsnedders> It's kinda slow.
  579. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Well, for the biggest user of it it is.
  580. # [23:24] <ezyang> Slow == ?
  581. # [23:24] <gsnedders> But that's Hixie, and HTML 5 is a kinda big file. :)
  582. # [23:24] <ezyang> Aha.
  583. # [23:24] <ezyang> Yeah, HTML 5 is big.
  584. # [23:24] <gsnedders> It's been a while since I've run it against HTML 5 myself. I can't remember how long it takes.
  585. # [23:25] <gsnedders> I'll probably someday get around to rewriting it in some other language, possibly Java (seeming that has an HTML 5 parser for it, and is quick, once the VM is running).
  586. # [23:25] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  587. # [23:26] <ezyang> Ummm... I'm not convinced you actually want to rewrite it in Java.
  588. # [23:26] <Hixie> "once the VM is running" isn't helpful since the VM would have to be started each time in most scenarios :-)
  589. # [23:27] <ezyang> Anyway, I presume you're loading the document entirely into memory and then doing transforms?
  590. # [23:27] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  591. # [23:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just wait for the python VM nd/or Hixie's computer to get faster
  592. # [23:28] <Hixie> actually i use your computer :-P
  593. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hixie doesn't own the computer. :P
  594. # [23:28] <jgraham> Oh
  595. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: But on a webservice, like v.nu, it's fine, because the start-up time doesn't matter.
  596. # [23:29] <gsnedders> ezyang: Yes.
  597. # [23:29] <Hixie> if jgraham can set it up that way :-)
  598. # [23:29] <jgraham> Well wait for my sebserver to get faster which still should happen rather faster than HTML 5 grows
  599. # [23:29] <jwalden> ezyang: hey, I think I remember seeing your name in occasional skims of r-h-t over the past year, are you living in random? (I was, graduated last year)
  600. # [23:29] * jgraham is filled with fear at the hought of trying to run java on the server
  601. # [23:30] <jgraham> I mean I only get about 1 in 2 java applications to run on my own machine
  602. # [23:31] <ezyang> jwalden: Yeah!
  603. # [23:31] <jwalden> ezyang: clam, or elsewhere?
  604. # [23:31] <jwalden> I was on clam first, third, fourth years, pecker third
  605. # [23:32] <jgraham> In no way is MIT a weird cult. At all. Honest.
  606. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: I would likely do so :)
  607. # [23:32] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.17.64)
  608. # [23:35] * Dashiva bakes jgraham on a slow roast
  609. # [23:35] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-b6cc58c788fd77f4) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  610. # [23:35] * jgraham is not sure what he did o deserve being roasted
  611. # [23:37] <Dashiva> You mentioned cult after clams had been brought up
  612. # [23:37] * gsnedders had people at TPAC trying to bully him into applying to places like MIT
  613. # [23:38] <ezyang> gsnedders: We've touched on this topic before, but do you know where you're going?
  614. # [23:39] <gsnedders> ezyang: No. Well, Opera for this summer.
  615. # [23:39] <ezyang> Nice!
  616. # [23:39] <ezyang> So you get to do the runaround this winter :-P
  617. # [23:39] <jgraham> Can you roast clams?
  618. # [23:40] <gsnedders> ezyang: Seeming you're from the US you might have a clue: when would I have to do SAT by?
  619. # [23:40] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-129-222-81.range81-129.btcentralplus.com)
  620. # [23:41] <ezyang> Erm, why do you want to take the SAT?
  621. # [23:41] <ezyang> As a non-US person, you can't get away with, say, IBs?
  622. # [23:41] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  623. # [23:41] * jgraham knows you have to take some special exams to go to grad school in the US
  624. # [23:42] <jwalden> MIT was awesome, crazy being in a place where so many other people are just as weird as you are :-D
  625. # [23:42] <gsnedders> ezyang: At places like MIT, no.
  626. # [23:43] <jwalden> last I heard IBs were never really in style, and even APs are going out these days
  627. # [23:43] <ezyang> I don't know the answer to your question offhand, since I did my SATs really early.
  628. # [23:43] <ezyang> collegeboard.com can probably tell you when the last time for seniors to take it is. You'll want to get your scores in before the application date.
  629. # [23:44] <ezyang> Also, if you don't know about it already, College Confidential is a really awesome resource. I'm a crufty college student turning Sophomore, so I've basically forgotten everything about the process.
  630. # [23:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: January
  631. # [23:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: Says where?
  632. # [23:46] <jgraham> The internet is a wonderful thing
  633. # [23:46] <jgraham> http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/international_applicants_helpful_tips/index.shtml#testingrequirements
  634. # [23:49] <hendry> evening, anyone have any thoughts on Website backups to share? http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/website_backup_RFC/
  635. # [23:49] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip147.unival.com)
  636. # [23:49] <ezyang> Awesome! 84 passes. That's totally commit worthy. :-D
  637. # [23:50] <ezyang> (285 failures, btw)
  638. # [23:50] <ezyang> gsnedders: Shall I commit?
  639. # [23:50] <gsnedders> ezyang: Yup
  640. # [23:50] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-129-222-81.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) ("Gone for a burton")
  641. # [23:51] <ezyang> Oh, wait, it's really chatty. Let me remove those var_dumps
  642. # [23:52] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  643. # [23:54] <ezyang> Pushed. gsnedders, have fun!
  644. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Anyhow, time for me to go sleep.
  645. # [23:54] <ezyang> (me, I'm going outside for a walk)
  646. # [23:54] <ezyang> Ahaha
  647. # [23:54] <ezyang> Good night!
  648. # [23:54] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.206.203) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  649. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Actually, more realistically, eat a few biscuits, read Anna Karenina for a couple of hours, then sleep.
  650. # [23:55] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@17.246.16.204)
  651. # [23:56] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.17.64)
  652. # Session Close: Wed May 27 00:00:00 2009

The end :)