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- # Session Start: Sat Jun 06 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:51] <Hixie> wow, shelley just sent what i believe is the most honest answer as to why people want to keep summary="" despite it having demonstrably failed to improve accessibility
- # [00:56] <annevk2> 'They've spent, what seems to me, a lot of time promoting this attribute, and accessibility in general. And now, a few people just want to yank it because "it's not being used right".' -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs
- # [01:00] <Hixie> yup
- # [01:01] <annevk2> nn
- # [01:01] <Hixie> nn
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- # [01:02] <Dashiva> It could be that some people believe that the bad use just doesn't count. It's just a tiny waste of time each occasion.
- # [01:09] <Philip`> "wow. fascinating. depressing." - that's an appropriate response to pretty much any attempt to look at a random collection of real-world markup
- # [01:10] <Dashiva> Or humanity in general :)
- # [01:10] <Philip`> I hope nobody is going to notice that there's some weird euc-jp decoding issues on my table-summary-values-dotbot page where it inexplicably misses the '"' at the end of an attribute value
- # [01:11] <Philip`> (I assume it's an euc-jp decoding issue because all the offending values look kind of Japanese or something foreign like that)
- # [01:11] <Philip`> (I can't reproduce the problem with parsetree.validator.nu but I don't care enough to debug it further)
- # [01:12] <Dashiva> Shouldn't the URL show whether it's Japanese or not?
- # [01:12] <Philip`> I guess so
- # [01:12] <Philip`> but I didn't look very closely
- # [01:13] <Philip`> and I'm not going to look now because it's a 5MB page and I have to pay the equivalent of half a chocolate digestive biscuit per megabyte of traffic
- # [01:14] <Dashiva> Well, I just clicked the expand link in your summary table :)
- # [01:15] <Philip`> You could look for some of the values lower down that have strings like "<tr>" in them
- # [01:16] <Philip`> and see if those are .jp pages
- # [01:16] <Dashiva> Yup
- # [01:16] <Hixie> Philip` needs a better network service provider
- # [01:16] <Hixie> one that charges a flat rate
- # [01:16] <Lachy> I'm surprised by how well Shelly wrote those emails about summary. Is she the same Shelly who's been complaining about RDFa stuff?
- # [01:16] <Hixie> and not per bit
- # [01:17] <Dashiva> Maybe they charge per byte, so it still costs the same if he only downloads 7 bits
- # [01:17] <Philip`> Hixie: I have one of those, but the wireless router appears to be dead, so I'm using a mobile broadband thingamy instead
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- # [01:18] <Hixie> Philip`: fix the router :-P
- # [01:18] <Dashiva> Philip`: I checked a few different ones, they all contain Japanese sites. I can't say every site listed is Japanese, but it seems likely.
- # [01:18] <Philip`> Hixie: I can't fix it myself - all I can do is complain to the owners, and they're asleep now :-p
- # [01:19] <Lachy> although, I really hate it when people claim that "... the folks who really want this attribute gone, really have no alternative solution in mind." because that's just complete nonsense.
- # [01:19] <Hixie> Philip`: ah
- # [01:20] * Philip` found that most "flat rate" mobile broadband thingamy plans had a limit of 3GB per month, and cost £15/month, which isn't so good
- # [01:21] <Philip`> (so I got one that's £15/GB and doesn't expire for 6 months, which is better value when I don't use it much)
- # [01:21] <takkaria> Philip`: hm, is that 3G USB stick-type stuff? who did you get yours from?
- # [01:22] <Philip`> takkaria: It is
- # [01:22] <Dashiva> Bah. Why is it so hard to get that stuff like autoplay are author hints, the UA is perfectly capable of overriding.
- # [01:22] <Philip`> takkaria: It's a Vodafone one
- # [01:23] <takkaria> Philip`: ah cool, sounds like what I want really
- # [01:24] <Philip`> takkaria: (Also it works on Linux, with a couple of configuration files found via Google)
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- # [01:38] <jjlee> what's the best way to get character indices of tags out of html5lib?
- # [01:39] <jjlee> I had a quick look a few weeks back, and suspected that copy and pasting chunks of html5lib into my code was likely my best option
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- # [01:39] <jjlee> any other ideas?
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- # [02:28] <ezyang> So, is the dash-dash-bang-angle comment terminator change solid now?
- # [02:28] <ezyang> (If it is, we should add tests)
- # [02:30] <Hixie> i think so
- # [02:31] <ezyang> Great!
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- # [05:41] <Hixie> uh oh
- # [05:41] <Hixie> i've reached microdata e-mails
- # [05:42] <Hixie> time to go home i think!
- # [05:43] <Dashiva> But it's not even midnight yet!
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- # [06:29] <Hixie> http://digg.com/comedy/W3C_s_Response_to_the_sarcasm_Tag_in_HTML_5_PIC is sad
- # [06:30] <Hixie> first of all, whoever is behind the w3c twitter account clearly doesn't know html5 well
- # [06:31] <Hixie> secondly, clearly the people commenting there don't either :-P
- # [06:35] <ezyang> Yaya
- # [06:35] <ezyang> But you should take a deep breath
- # [06:36] <jruderman> you disagree with the reply from the w3c account?
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- # [13:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe <hgroup> without <h1>-<h6> descendant should be ignored altogether instead of being equivalent to <h1>
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- # [17:02] * gsnedders wants resizable text fields in all browsers…
- # [17:02] * gsnedders grumbles
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- # [18:33] <Philip`> <li><a href...>Menu item <!--[if IE 7]><!--></a><!--<![endif]--> <!--[if lte IE 6]><table><tr><td><![endif]--> <ul> Sub-menu items... </ul> <!--[if lte IE 6]></td></tr></table></a><![endif]--> </li>
- # [18:33] <Philip`> Conditional comments let people do scary things
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- # [19:00] <krijnh> Philip`: almost every example on http://www.cssplay.co.uk/ uses that
- # [19:02] <krijnh> I think it started with http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menus/dd_valid_2.html
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- # [19:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: WTF?
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- # [19:34] * jgraham wonders if he should clean up the table summary long terms solution page so that it isn't so biased
- # [19:35] <jgraham> Or failing that at least so that it makes sense
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- # [19:36] <jgraham> And actually has the proposal I made rather than a worse variation on it
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- # [21:55] <gsnedders> Is there anyway to get a a Document object from an HTML string?
- # [21:55] <gsnedders> *a string containing HTML
- # [21:56] <Philip`> document.write into an iframe?
- # [21:57] <gsnedders> how do I do it in an iframe?
- # [21:58] <gsnedders> I mean, the iframe will already have html/head/body…
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- # [22:00] <Philip`> Do what the Live DOM Viewer does, I guess
- # [22:00] <gsnedders> What does that do?
- # [22:00] <gsnedders> :P
- # [22:03] <Philip`> document.writes into an iframe, I think
- # [22:04] <Philip`> (after calling document.open)
- # [22:05] * gsnedders always gets confused when he looks at the Live DOM Viewer's source :P
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- # [22:24] <webben> (OT): http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#charset Anybody know what CSS2.1 means by "byte" here?
- # [22:25] <webben> I'm trying to implement CSS2.1 character encoding sniffing, and I'm just looking at the character encodings that involve transcoding.
- # [22:25] <webben> Starting with GSM 03.38.
- # [22:25] * gsnedders notes this would be easier if he hadn't just crashed his web browser
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- # [22:27] <webben> What's confusing me is that whereas you can grab octets for (say) UTF-8 bytes (i.e. octets) and match against their regexes, GSM 03.38 takes packs 7-bit codepoints into octets.
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- # [22:27] <webben> so if you just naively grab the octets, they won't match that regex
- # [22:27] <gsnedders> Well, if it is codepoints then doesn't that give you the Unicode string?
- # [22:27] <webben> you actually have to decompose them to septets.
- # [22:28] <webben> gsnedders: I'm using codepoints loosely. These aren't unicode codepoints.
- # [22:28] * gsnedders thinks this would be easier to answer if he actually knew what GSM did :)
- # [22:29] <webben> There the abstract hex values in the GSM 03.38 character encoding, which can be represented into 7 bits, which are then packed into octets such that one octet contains bits from multiple codepoints.
- # [22:29] <webben> http://pda.etsi.org/exchangefolder/ts_100900v070200p.pdf is the GSM 03.38 spec.
- # [22:30] <webben> and http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/ is a English-language description of what it does.
- # [22:30] <webben> I've been wrestingly with this in increasing confusion all day; figured there's quite a lot of spec-compliance and character encoding knowledge in this channel ;)
- # [22:31] * gsnedders would ignore that table in CSS21 :)
- # [22:31] <gsnedders> Other things make more sense for GSM 03.38, IMO.
- # [22:31] <gsnedders> Or maybe I'm wrong
- # [22:31] * gsnedders shrugs
- # [22:31] <gsnedders> Don't ask me!
- # [22:31] <webben> I've also been wondering: who delivers CSS in GSM 03.38? I can't find any reference to this anywhere else.
- # [22:32] * webben is also amused that i18n's test cases for CSS and charset don't actually cover all these random encodings.
- # [22:32] <webben> (http://www.w3.org/International/tests/list-html-css#charset)
- # [22:38] * Philip` discovers that if you don't have setuptools installed, Trac will silently choose not to attempt to load any plugins
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- # [22:56] <virtuelv> GSM 03.38 brings back bad memories
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- # Session Close: Sun Jun 07 00:00:00 2009
The end :)