/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-10 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  4. # [00:04] * jgraham is going to try sleeping now
  5. # [00:04] <sayrer> jgraham: they also write "xhtml"
  6. # [00:04] <sayrer> so I think your point is questionable
  7. # [00:04] <sayrer> night
  8. # [00:05] <Dashiva> And use floats to make table layouts
  9. # [00:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-75-61-134-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  10. # [00:11] <gsnedders> And use floats for tabular data, because tables are bad.
  11. # [00:14] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-75-61-134-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  12. # [00:14] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@192.42.249.5)
  13. # [00:21] <sayrer> snicker
  14. # [00:21] <sayrer> google.com
  15. # [00:21] <sayrer> perhaps the most closely measured page in the history of the world
  16. # [00:21] <sayrer> contains a font element
  17. # [00:22] <ezyang> jaja
  18. # [00:22] <sayrer> somebody better tell them
  19. # [00:22] <sayrer> about their suboptimal markup
  20. # [00:23] * Quits: dbaron_ (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  21. # [00:23] <ezyang> It's probably really portable!
  22. # [00:42] <hober> I don't think I understand Shelley's latest email.
  23. # [00:43] <sayrer> hober, why not?
  24. # [00:43] <sayrer> it seems to contain a good point
  25. # [00:43] <hober> which was?
  26. # [00:44] <sayrer> you don't want to edit a font element out of a document in order to produce "conformant" markup
  27. # [00:45] <hober> Who is 'you' in this case? (I think I would want to do that...)
  28. # [00:45] <sayrer> hober, if you agree that a <span style=""> is no better
  29. # [00:46] <sayrer> then you would want to move the CSS to a style element
  30. # [00:46] <sayrer> that is madness
  31. # [00:46] <sayrer> since you would be changing the "lexical scope" that a given piece of markup depends on
  32. # [00:46] <hober> Well, I'd like to know why the text is blue, so I could write <strong>...</strong>, or <span class="some-semantic-missing-from-the-default-set-of-elements">...</span>
  33. # [00:46] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  34. # [00:46] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  35. # [00:46] * Quits: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  36. # [00:46] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  37. # [00:47] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  38. # [00:47] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  39. # [00:47] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  40. # [00:47] * Joins: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl)
  41. # [00:47] <sayrer> hober, well, I don't agree that the semantics of the blue text are always worth writing down, but where do you put the styling information if it's clear that the element should be <strong>
  42. # [00:48] <hober> In an external stylesheet, linked to with <link>
  43. # [00:49] <hober> (ideally the selector for applying the blue style is simply "strong", too)
  44. # [00:49] <sayrer> so you introduce a dependency like that via a wysiwyg editor?
  45. # [00:50] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  46. # [00:50] <hober> I use Emacs to write markup. :)
  47. # [00:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  48. # [00:51] <sayrer> hober: I take it you forfeit?
  49. # [00:51] <sayrer> ;)
  50. # [00:52] <sayrer> hober, but even with Emacs
  51. # [00:52] <sayrer> are you aware of any editor that would perform that transformation?
  52. # [00:52] <hober> I think the question of how to build a WYSIWYG web page editor is a separate one from what we were talking about
  53. # [00:52] <sayrer> hober, not according to the spec
  54. # [00:52] <sayrer> but I am willing to engage on Emacs editing modes
  55. # [00:52] <sayrer> are there Emacs editing modes that perform the transformation you described?
  56. # [00:53] <hober> What do you mean by transformation?
  57. # [00:53] <hober> the author types in < s t r o n g > ...
  58. # [00:53] <sayrer> <font color="blue"> --> <strong> + css file
  59. # [00:53] <sayrer> the editor doesn't always create the pages it edits
  60. # [00:54] <hober> The author doesn't always create the page he/she is editing, sure.
  61. # [00:54] <sayrer> so, if I copy and thenpaste a section with <font>
  62. # [00:54] <sayrer> should the editor paste in a font?
  63. # [00:54] <sayrer> a font element, I mean
  64. # [00:54] <hober> I mean, this is generally true of any document editing. How does an author change foo to bar in a document of type baz? Well, he/she finds all the foos and changes them to bar..
  65. # [00:55] <sayrer> authoring tools are subject to the same requirements that authors are
  66. # [00:55] <hober> If you copy source from somewhere and paste it in somewhere, I would be really annoyed if it wasn't the same source...
  67. # [00:55] <sayrer> yes, I agree
  68. # [00:56] <sayrer> so it will be quite impossible for authoring tools to meet the current conformance requirements
  69. # [00:58] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  70. # [00:58] <hober> so you've got markup in an intermediate state, of unknown conformance. I don't see why it would be "quite impossible" to have a "export to conformant html5" button
  71. # [00:59] <hober> with an annoying "some formatting may be lost" confirmation dialog
  72. # [00:59] <sayrer> so it would require data loss?
  73. # [01:00] <sayrer> lame
  74. # [01:00] <hober> user writes unkown attribute or element (which are non-conformant), what does an editor replace them with?
  75. # [01:00] <sayrer> nothing, obviously
  76. # [01:01] <hober> <unknown> could become <div class="com.example.unknown">
  77. # [01:01] <sayrer> but it might suggest something
  78. # [01:01] <hober> unknown attributes though, get lost I think
  79. # [01:01] <sayrer> a far more likely example might be <dvi></div>
  80. # [01:01] <hober> data-com-example-unknown?
  81. # [01:01] <Hixie> hober: you could use data-com.example.attr="foo"
  82. # [01:01] <Hixie> yeah
  83. # [01:01] <Hixie> what you said
  84. # [01:02] <sayrer> but if we veer into wysiwyg, this is irrelevant
  85. # [01:02] <sayrer> it looks how it looks
  86. # [01:02] <hober> ... and when you click that button, and OK that dialog, the result is conformant HTML5, right?
  87. # [01:03] <hober> I don't see why it wouldn't be, or rather why it can't be.
  88. # [01:03] <sayrer> two things
  89. # [01:03] <sayrer> I am not aware of any editor that would do that
  90. # [01:03] <sayrer> it might be undesirable
  91. # [01:04] <sayrer> the HTML5 standard is an astonishingly bad place to speculate on Editors Of The Future
  92. # [01:05] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  93. # [01:06] <sayrer> it is sort of antithetical to the "don't mess with headers you don't understand" ethos of email
  94. # [01:07] <sayrer> and more complicated given the external dependencies that a "proper" file would have
  95. # [01:11] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  96. # [01:13] <hober> well, think of it in terms of postel's law. a UA is at the 'liberal in what you accept' end, matching your "don't mess" behavior.
  97. # [01:13] <hober> an editor / authoring tool is at the 'conservative in what you send' end
  98. # [01:14] <hober> hence authoring requirements being stricter than UA requirements
  99. # [01:23] * Joins: riven` (n=colin@53525B67.cable.casema.nl)
  100. # [01:24] <sayrer> hober, I am saying that those requirements are incompatibl
  101. # [01:24] <sayrer> e
  102. # [01:25] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  103. # [01:25] <hober> how are they incompatible?
  104. # [01:28] <roc> they're incompatible if you require round-tripping
  105. # [01:28] <roc> which is what most people want from an editor
  106. # [01:29] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  107. # [01:31] <hober> hmm. conformant documents round-trip with conformant tools. non-conformant documents round-trip if your tools are also non-conformant.
  108. # [01:32] <takkaria> gsnedders: yup, Linkoping
  109. # [01:32] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  110. # [01:32] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-d3e595de19a4c28e)
  111. # [01:38] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  112. # [01:41] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  113. # [01:46] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  114. # [01:49] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  115. # [01:50] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  116. # [01:51] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  117. # [01:54] <ojan> Hixie: ping
  118. # [02:00] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com) ("wings game!")
  119. # [02:06] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  120. # [02:19] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  121. # [02:19] <Hixie> ojan: here
  122. # [02:24] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net)
  123. # [02:28] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.13)
  124. # [02:29] <ojan> Hixie: i'm looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-fe-disabled
  125. # [02:29] <ojan> it's not clear to me from that description whether text selection in a disabled input should work
  126. # [02:30] <Hixie> looking...
  127. # [02:31] <Hixie> it's up to the UA
  128. # [02:31] <ojan> FWIW, IE allows text selection and Gecko/WebKit don't from my quick test
  129. # [02:31] <ojan> ok
  130. # [02:31] <ojan> thx
  131. # [02:32] <Hixie> do you want a note in there to that effect?
  132. # [02:33] <ojan> meh. i guess text selection stuff is mostly up to the UA, right?
  133. # [02:33] <ojan> so a note just in that one instance doesn't seem necessary
  134. # [02:33] <Hixie> ok
  135. # [02:45] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip112.unival.com)
  136. # [03:05] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  137. # [03:31] * Quits: ZombieL (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  138. # [03:32] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.13)
  139. # [03:32] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  140. # [03:33] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  141. # [03:43] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  142. # [03:54] * Joins: adu (n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  143. # [03:54] <adu> hi
  144. # [04:06] * cyberpea1 is now known as cyberpear
  145. # [04:25] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  146. # [04:41] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  147. # [04:43] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  148. # [04:50] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-7-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  149. # [04:51] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  150. # [05:00] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. # [05:08] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  152. # [05:09] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  153. # [05:11] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-16-77.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  154. # [05:15] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  155. # [05:20] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  156. # [05:22] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-166-245-47.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  157. # [05:36] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.248)
  158. # [05:47] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  159. # [06:00] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
  160. # [06:20] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  161. # [06:20] * Joins: arun__ (n=arun@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  162. # [06:24] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@209.116.40.3)
  163. # [06:47] * Joins: adu_ (n=ajr@pool-173-66-5-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  164. # [06:47] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  165. # [06:59] * Quits: adu (n=ajr@pool-173-79-52-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Nick collision from services.)
  166. # [07:04] * Quits: adu_ (n=ajr@pool-173-66-5-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
  167. # [07:04] * Joins: adu (n=ajr@pool-173-66-5-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  168. # [07:08] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  169. # [07:12] * Quits: arun__ (n=arun@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  170. # [07:14] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  171. # [07:15] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  172. # [07:18] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  173. # [07:20] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  174. # [07:28] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  175. # [07:33] * Quits: adu (n=ajr@pool-173-66-5-152.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  176. # [07:40] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  177. # [07:44] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  178. # [07:45] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-166-245-47.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  179. # [07:46] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  180. # [07:47] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  181. # [07:52] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.248)
  182. # [07:53] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  183. # [08:03] * Joins: hamaji_ (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  184. # [08:05] * Quits: hamaji (n=i@w133104.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) ("Quit IRC (rail)")
  185. # [08:06] * Quits: hamaji_ (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Client Quit)
  186. # [08:06] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  187. # [08:09] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  188. # [08:14] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  189. # [08:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  190. # [08:18] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  191. # [08:19] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
  192. # [08:19] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  193. # [08:20] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  194. # [08:20] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  195. # [08:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  196. # [08:21] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  197. # [08:23] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  198. # [08:24] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  199. # [08:27] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net) ("Leaving")
  200. # [08:27] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  201. # [08:36] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  202. # [08:38] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  203. # [08:46] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  204. # [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes, I pointed out the absolute URL thing to DanC
  205. # [08:48] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  206. # [08:56] * Joins: Hish___ (n=chatzill@212.60.242.26)
  207. # [08:56] * Hish___ is now known as Hish
  208. # [09:02] * Joins: philipj (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  209. # [09:06] * Quits: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  210. # [09:06] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  211. # [09:06] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  212. # [09:06] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  213. # [09:06] <annevk42> seems that Web ECMAScript needs to define (new Date(NaN).toString()) as well
  214. # [09:06] * Quits: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) ("Tiarra 0.1+svn-29652: SIGINT received; exit")
  215. # [09:06] * Joins: remysharp (n=remyshar@80.229.253.218)
  216. # [09:07] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  217. # [09:08] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  218. # [09:09] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  219. # [09:10] * Mrmil received a xhtml list of features coded in <br />'s from a top-notch application developer. *sigh*
  220. # [09:11] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  221. # [09:11] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  222. # [09:11] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  223. # [09:11] * Joins: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl)
  224. # [09:11] * Quits: Hish__ (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  225. # [09:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  226. # [09:13] * Joins: Hish___ (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  227. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  228. # [09:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019843.html and http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019852.html
  229. # [09:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: how would you like me to proceed?
  230. # [09:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: do you think i should define a mapping to infoset for microdata as you describe?
  231. # [09:16] <hsivonen> If it's proven by implementation, yes. However, at this point it's not proven by implementation.
  232. # [09:16] <hsivonen> I guess you could put it in and cut it at CR if it sucks.
  233. # [09:18] <Hixie> i'm leaning towards waiting and seeing if there's demand
  234. # [09:18] <Hixie> would that be ok?
  235. # [09:19] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@212.60.242.26) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  236. # [09:19] * Hish___ is now known as Hish
  237. # [09:19] <Hixie> and re your latest e-mail, i now understand what you meant by "literal non-characters", my bad
  238. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, it would be OK to wait with the XML mapping
  239. # [09:22] <annevk42> oh yay, Gecko puts elements in the XHTML namespace too now
  240. # [09:27] <Hixie> ok, thanks
  241. # [09:28] <hsivonen> annevk42: I really hope the change proves to be a non-event as far as Web compat goes
  242. # [09:28] <annevk42> from prior ruby feedback it seems better to just obsolete the fallback mechanism
  243. # [09:29] <annevk42> (and require everyone to support ruby properly)
  244. # [09:29] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  245. # [09:29] <hsivonen> annevk42: what about degrading gracefully?
  246. # [09:29] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  247. # [09:32] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/plhw3org/statuses/2090392921
  248. # [09:34] <annevk42> hsivonen, e.g. myakura said the fallback was not good
  249. # [09:34] <annevk42> hsivonen, heh, I see you replied as well, me too: https://twitter.com/annevk/status/2090405819
  250. # [09:36] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  251. # [09:38] <annevk42> cheap shot I suppose
  252. # [09:38] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  253. # [09:38] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  254. # [09:38] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  255. # [09:39] <remysharp> hi chaps (and chapesses?), I wanted to sign up to the mailing lists, but which one is best to give feedback on implementing the markup?
  256. # [09:39] <remysharp> is it the web designers and html authors - or
  257. # [09:39] <remysharp> implementations (though I think this might be the browser implementors)
  258. # [09:39] <remysharp> *implementers
  259. # [09:40] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  260. # [09:42] <annevk42> remysharp, questions go to help, feedback goes to whatwg, and questions on implementing features in user agents (e.g. html5lib, browsers, etc.) go to implementors
  261. # [09:43] <remysharp> okay, so feedback on how elements work or are used from an authors point of view, I want whatwg@whatwg.org then.
  262. # [09:43] <remysharp> cheers.
  263. # [09:43] <Hixie> macs really need to get better at handling hard disk failures
  264. # [09:44] <Hixie> hanging the entire OS when the disk fails to respond is not acceptable
  265. # [09:44] <Hixie> (external disk)
  266. # [09:48] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@c-67-180-87-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  267. # [09:49] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  268. # [10:12] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123)
  269. # [10:16] <annevk42> maybe we should introduce the concept "legacy fallback"
  270. # [10:16] <annevk42> to make it clear how various elements differ in fallback model
  271. # [10:18] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  272. # [10:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: doesn't seem to be much point pushing <video> for freeness if one then uses java as the fallback
  273. # [10:18] <hsivonen> making Hixie allow <applet> and/or <object classid> in <video> content would be a start...
  274. # [10:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: Java is royalty-free, no?
  275. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, it's about making video play in IE and Opera which are both already proprietary
  276. # [10:19] <Hixie> if all you care about is money, it might be ok, i dunno
  277. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: I care about Freedom
  278. # [10:20] <Hixie> (money isn't the part of freedom that i particularly care about)
  279. # [10:20] <Hixie> java is basically a single-vendor technology for all intents and purposes
  280. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: to have Free as in Freedom implementations of the platform, it's useful to enable the same videos to play in IE
  281. # [10:21] <hsivonen> and that particular mechanism may be non-Free but royalty-free
  282. # [10:21] <Hixie> didn't we establish that java could use <object> or <embed>
  283. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: have we established that Java could use <object> in IE without classid?
  284. # [10:22] <Hixie> no idea
  285. # [10:22] <Hixie> i'm finding it difficult to care about java fallback in IE
  286. # [10:23] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  287. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: is your story that Cortado fallback should focus on IE only? (If you don't allow <applet>, it's pretty obvious that authors who put in a fallback won't bother tweaking it for Opera)
  288. # [10:23] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  289. # [10:23] <annevk42> are you sure <object classid> does not work in Opera?
  290. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think I have an extraordinarily legitimate use case for Java applets here
  291. # [10:23] <hsivonen> annevk42: I am not sure
  292. # [10:23] <Hixie> frankly personally i don't really see why anyone is using video at all ye, since we don't have a codec yet
  293. # [10:24] * Joins: Hish___ (n=chatzill@212.60.242.26)
  294. # [10:26] <hsivonen> hmm. if it turns out that Opera pays attention to classid, classid would no longer be single-vendor technology
  295. # [10:26] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  296. # [10:26] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  297. # [10:27] * Joins: Hish____ (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  298. # [10:27] <Hixie> classid is already defined in html5
  299. # [10:27] <hsivonen> whoa. I just looked
  300. # [10:27] <Hixie> it's just not conforming, because it's values aren't necessary to obtain the effect it does
  301. # [10:27] * hsivonen looks again
  302. # [10:27] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  303. # [10:27] <hsivonen> well, then
  304. # [10:27] <Hixie> (type="" does everything classid does)
  305. # [10:28] * Hish____ is now known as Hish
  306. # [10:28] <Hixie> s/it's/its/
  307. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a demo for bootstrapping Java in IE using object without classid?
  308. # [10:28] <Hixie> no, i don't really care enough about java to have a demo
  309. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: how do you know that "(type="" does everything classid does)"
  310. # [10:29] <hsivonen> in the present tense
  311. # [10:29] <hsivonen> if you haven't demos
  312. # [10:29] <Hixie> classid="" is a dispatch mechanism. type="" is a dispatch mechanism. we only need one dispatch mechanism.
  313. # [10:29] <hsivonen> but the present tense has all the relevance to *fallback*
  314. # [10:30] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  315. # [10:30] <Hixie> there is no present tense with <video>
  316. # [10:30] <Hixie> <video> has no defined codec yet.
  317. # [10:30] <Hixie> so nobody should be using it.
  318. # [10:30] <Hixie> and if they do, they are on their own
  319. # [10:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: there is a present tense to having a fallback in IE8
  320. # [10:33] <Hixie> there is no need for fallback when there is nothing to fallback _from_
  321. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: if we get a codec in the future, falling back in IE8 will be relevant
  322. # [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: by your logic, we could make <video> itself non-conforming while pondering the codec
  323. # [10:35] <Hixie> who knows what the fallback needs will be then
  324. # [10:35] <Hixie> <video> _is_ non-conforming today
  325. # [10:35] <Hixie> html5 is a draft
  326. # [10:35] <annevk42> you're talking past each other
  327. # [10:35] <annevk42> right
  328. # [10:35] <Hixie> hasn't even reached last call
  329. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: yet, in practice, the browsers that have shipped <video> or are about to have exactly one common codec set
  330. # [10:35] <annevk42> Hixie is talking about the future and hsivonen is talking about now
  331. # [10:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: they are?
  332. # [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: with XiphQT for Safari, yeah
  333. # [10:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: one browser doesn't even have <video>
  334. # [10:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: and if we can ask people to download a new codec, why not ask the other people to download a custom plugin?
  335. # [10:36] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-12b49c24171751f4)
  336. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: you still get out-of-the-box goodness in products from two other vendors and you bypass the plug-in prison on Snow Leopard (AFAICT)
  337. # [10:38] <Hixie> (for some definition of "goodness")
  338. # [10:44] * Quits: Hish___ (n=chatzill@212.60.242.26) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  339. # [10:49] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  340. # [10:49] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-162.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  341. # [10:50] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  342. # [10:51] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-162.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  343. # [10:51] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-162.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  344. # [10:51] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-160-92.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  345. # [10:51] <Hixie> ok i can't get java to work even with <applet>, so the odds of me getting it to work with anything else are minimal
  346. # [10:52] <Hixie> it crashed firefox twice, IE refuses to render anything but a red cross, and safari claims java can't be enabled.
  347. # [10:52] <Hixie> which from what i hear is a good thing since i don't think apple has fixed the java exploit yet
  348. # [10:55] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@EM114-51-7-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  349. # [10:58] <Hixie> ah, i don't seem to even have java installed.
  350. # [10:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  351. # [10:59] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  352. # [10:59] <Hixie> oh jesus java tried to install the MSN toolbar
  353. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm less and less convinced that this is a useful route to follow for video fallback
  354. # [11:00] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  355. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: note that this is for casual windows users who have already installed the JRE for other reasons
  356. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: not for non-windows users who take a closer look at what they install
  357. # [11:01] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  358. # [11:02] <Hixie> the installer seems to have hung
  359. # [11:02] <Hixie> so the odds of casual windows users having it installed seem low to me :-)
  360. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd agree with you based on my own installation experience, but random XP boxen seem to have the Java thingy in tray surprisingly often
  361. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know how it ends up installed, but it seems it does
  362. # [11:03] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  363. # [11:09] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  364. # [11:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/java/001.html
  365. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: the second </applet> should be </object>, right?
  366. # [11:11] <Hixie> oops
  367. # [11:11] <Hixie> fixed
  368. # [11:12] <Hixie> man windows 7 sounds more like the wii than a serious OS
  369. # [11:12] <annevk42> of course, "application/x-java-applet" is not really conforming either, but I guess the validator does not go that far
  370. # [11:13] <Hixie> i'll let sun worry about _that_
  371. # [11:14] <Hixie> notwithstanding the fact that the video doesn't actually play for me, i got it working for <applet>, <object>, and <embed> in IE8 without violating HTML5 for <object> or <embed>.
  372. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK. cool..
  373. # [11:14] <hsivonen> I guess I shouldn't trust Sun's documentation
  374. # [11:14] <hsivonen> at all
  375. # [11:15] <annevk42> none of it works for me btw; guess I don't have Java
  376. # [11:15] <Hixie> i get as far as cortado loading and saying "buffering... 25%" (for some arbitary %)
  377. # [11:15] <Hixie> sometimes cortado crashes with a NullPointerException
  378. # [11:15] <Hixie> and it never plays the video back
  379. # [11:16] <Hixie> but i figure those problems are besides the point here
  380. # [11:19] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  381. # [11:19] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-fallback-validation/object-type.html WFM in IE8
  382. # [11:19] <hsivonen> and validates
  383. # [11:20] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  384. # [11:21] <nessy> for me, safari on the mac buffers 1% of each of the three videos; firefox 3.5 doesn't display any of them
  385. # [11:21] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-fallback-validation/object-type.html WFM in Opera on Windows, too.
  386. # [11:22] <hsivonen> I'll close the bug. sorry about the false alarm
  387. # [11:22] <annevk42> is already closed
  388. # [11:22] <hsivonen> oh. Hixie closed it already.
  389. # [11:22] <Hixie> :-)
  390. # [11:22] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  391. # [11:23] <Hixie> no idea why it works for you but not me
  392. # [11:23] <Hixie> that's weird
  393. # [11:23] <Hixie> oh wel
  394. # [11:23] <Hixie> l
  395. # [11:23] <Hixie> (for your page but not mine, i should say)
  396. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: on surface, I notice that I used .ogg instead of .ogv and I have carefully configured Apache's types in advance
  397. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: Also, I obtained cortado fresh from svn
  398. # [11:24] <hsivonen> I'm positively surprised that it compiled with no classpath hell whatsoever
  399. # [11:26] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  400. # [11:27] <Hixie> i used the cortado build on their ftp site from just now, and use the same mime type as you
  401. # [11:27] <Hixie> do you think they examine the filename?
  402. # [11:27] <Hixie> i could change that i guess...
  403. # [11:28] <Hixie> same result
  404. # [11:28] <Hixie> <applet> crashed, <object> says "Buffering...", and <embed> is blank.
  405. # [11:28] * Hixie continues to experience hell whenever dealing with java
  406. # [11:34] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  407. # [11:38] <jgraham> "[@summary] may just be a one trick pony. It does that trick well". Well I hope it is now obvious why I think lots of accessibility people are uninterested in enganing in a feedback loop about its usefulness
  408. # [11:38] <jgraham> *engaging
  409. # [11:40] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se)
  410. # [11:40] <Hixie> they seem very interested in engaging in a feedback loop if by "feedback loop" you mean a loop where they give the same feedback repeatedly ignoring all responses
  411. # [11:40] <jgraham> Heh. That wasn't quite what I had in mind...
  412. # [11:41] <Hixie> (and by "they" i mean specifically a dozen or so people in public-html, not the whole accessibility community, many of whom have privately told me that they agree that summary="" has failed)
  413. # [11:41] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123) (Remote closed the connection)
  414. # [11:42] <annevk42> Hixie, unfortunately private communication cannot be verified by anyone so is hardly useful for common understanding of things (imo)
  415. # [11:42] <Hixie> indeed
  416. # [11:43] <Hixie> hence why i have been focusing on the research and not making claims to authority in my arguments
  417. # [11:44] <annevk42> you did make a few with respect to the US gov, to be fair
  418. # [11:44] <Hixie> hm?
  419. # [11:44] <annevk42> but they were not that relevant to the overall point
  420. # [11:44] <Hixie> not sure which case you're talking about
  421. # [11:45] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  422. # [11:47] <annevk42> I recall something like "even the US gov discourages summary="
  423. # [11:48] <annevk42> but alas, I cannot find it
  424. # [11:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123)
  425. # [11:50] <Hixie> there was a recent post where i said that, but that was citing the documentation that the fpwg gave
  426. # [11:53] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  427. # [11:55] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-196-43.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  428. # [11:58] <Hixie> ok bed time
  429. # [11:59] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  430. # [12:07] * Joins: Andrei (n=andreip@194.110.194.1)
  431. # [12:14] * Quits: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  432. # [12:15] * Quits: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  433. # [12:15] * Quits: shikiesos (n=shiki@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  434. # [12:15] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2188-ipbf6208marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  435. # [12:15] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  436. # [12:16] * Joins: shikiesos (n=shiki@220.109.219.244)
  437. # [12:17] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  438. # [12:21] * Joins: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  439. # [12:23] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-171-142.wlan.tudelft.nl)
  440. # [12:26] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  441. # [12:27] * Joins: ukai (n=ukai@220.109.219.244)
  442. # [12:30] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  443. # [12:31] * Joins: philipj_ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  444. # [12:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  445. # [12:32] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  446. # [12:34] <Dashiva> Is there a term for giving examples that are nothing at all like the relevant subject at hand?
  447. # [12:36] <jgraham> Dashiva: For example?
  448. # [12:40] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  449. # [12:40] <Dashiva> Like talking about handicap parking in the @summary discussion
  450. # [12:41] <jgraham> Oh I'm not sure what that's called
  451. # [12:41] <jgraham> Although I think Shelly was just wrong
  452. # [12:42] <jgraham> If you measured the impact of disabled spaces then I'm pretty sure that they would come out well
  453. # [12:42] <jgraham> compared to the alternatives
  454. # [12:43] <Dashiva> What is the parking equivalent of summary on a layout table?
  455. # [12:44] <jgraham> I guess it is a disabled person using the space. But to be fair I think she was trying to make a general (and as I said, IMHO, wrong) point so there need not be a 1:1 correlation
  456. # [12:45] * Quits: philipj (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  457. # [12:46] <Dashiva> Well, yeah. Any example to something regulated by business and law is somewhat irrelevant by default when it comes to a volunteer and amateur web
  458. # [12:47] <jgraham> My assumption is that she believes that an "empiracist" would regard disabled parking spots as a failure if it could be shown that they were more often used by non-disabled people than by disabled people
  459. # [12:47] <jgraham> It might be true that they are used in that way. But that doesn't make them a failure
  460. # [12:48] <jgraham> Because they might nevertheless increase the accessibility of shops to disabled people by increasing the chance that they will get a spot near the shops
  461. # [12:49] <jgraham> Thus allowing them to go shoppiing when they would otherwise not be able to
  462. # [12:50] <Dashiva> I've been avoid calling it an analogy because it's a very bad one :)
  463. # [12:50] <jgraham> On the other hand they would be a failure if they were less cost effective at achieving this goal than some other solution that could be used instead.
  464. # [12:50] <jgraham> And were preventing that alternative solution being deployed
  465. # [12:51] <Dashiva> You also have to look at the overall result. Non-disabled use of disabled parking still produces utility.
  466. # [12:52] <Dashiva> Whereas an ignored attribute is pure author waste
  467. # [12:52] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  468. # [12:52] <jgraham> True
  469. # [12:54] <jgraham> (as an example of an alternative solution, we can imagine requiring businesses to ferry disabled users directly to the door from any parking space. This would have greater benefits (door to door service) but also much greater costs)
  470. # [12:55] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  471. # [12:57] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  472. # [12:58] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  473. # [13:03] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@wlan-145-94-171-142.wlan.tudelft.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  474. # [13:09] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  475. # [13:19] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  476. # [13:26] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213.66.216.93)
  477. # [13:27] <annevk42> I have the feeling some of the ECMAScript folks have been working on "obsoleting" the origin security infrastructure whereas we are working on strengthening it
  478. # [13:28] <annevk42> E.g. they are working on safe subsets of ECMAScript that can run within the same origin somehow for ads etc. whereas we have the sandboxed <iframe> feature to give those ads a distinct origin
  479. # [13:43] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  480. # [13:48] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-12b49c24171751f4) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  481. # [14:08] <annevk42> (My main worry though is that I am bringing this up and nobody else.)
  482. # [14:10] <jgraham> annevk42: I agree ith you but I don't kno if it is a problem
  483. # [14:11] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@129.33.49.251)
  484. # [14:11] * Quits: Andrei (n=andreip@194.110.194.1) ("Leaving")
  485. # [14:12] <annevk42> jgraham, maybe it's just a problem for me then
  486. # [14:12] <jgraham> annevk42: Why is it a problem to have two possible approaches to the same problem, in this case?
  487. # [14:12] <annevk42> jgraham, some of the ECMAScript folks are asking for specific XMLHttpRequest changes that do not seem to take into account the feature set that sandboxed <iframe>s offer
  488. # [14:13] <jgraham> Oh
  489. # [14:13] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  490. # [14:13] <jgraham> Well I guess it depends on the merits of those changes
  491. # [14:13] <annevk42> jgraham, one security researcher makes claims about CORS based on the assumption that the Web will go in the direction of Caja/etc.
  492. # [14:14] <annevk42> jgraham, the merits heavily depend on where we end up, security wise
  493. # [14:14] <jgraham> I think it is bad to assume that either technique will dominate
  494. # [14:14] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) ("O public road, I say back I am not afraid to leave you, yet I love you, you express me better than I can express myself.")
  495. # [14:15] <annevk42> you also think it is bad to have several ways to do the same thing
  496. # [14:16] <annevk42> and given the API bloat that XMLHttpRequest already has I'm not inclined to sprinkle around some more
  497. # [14:16] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  498. # [14:17] <jgraham> In general I agree but with something like security there is more of an argument for more than one way to do it
  499. # [14:17] <jgraham> Assuming the ways are complementary and don't crowd each other out of the market
  500. # [14:18] <jgraham> (with different browsers implementing different solutions)
  501. # [14:19] <jgraham> Or cause undue confusion about the right approach to use
  502. # [14:20] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  503. # [14:20] <annevk42> I think you need one approach as it affects how ad platforms have to work, how you have to do communication securely, whether origins can be trusted, etc.
  504. # [14:21] <jgraham> I don't think we will (in general) want to assume different origins can be trusted any time soon
  505. # [14:21] <annevk42> it's about whether you can trust your own
  506. # [14:21] <jgraham> ad platforms should just pick whichever solution meets their needs best
  507. # [14:23] <jgraham> annevk42: Well I don't really understand the details... I assume it has something to so with embedding external script in your own origin but using caja to limit what it can do?
  508. # [14:24] * gsnedders grumbles at Adobe
  509. # [14:24] <annevk42> yes
  510. # [14:24] <annevk42> versus embedding it inside a sandboxed iframe
  511. # [14:24] * gsnedders has sent a form of verification they say is valid and they're saying it isn't
  512. # [14:24] <jgraham> (it is possible that my opinions on this topic are nonsensical since I don't really understand it all that well and it is rather complex)
  513. # [14:25] <gsnedders> "Official, current report card indicating name of school and student" — uh, yes, what I sent is that.
  514. # [14:25] <jgraham> annevk42: So what, in detail, is the problem with allowing ad networks / authors to choose whichever approach they feel is best
  515. # [14:26] <annevk42> it complicates XHR and potentially other APIs
  516. # [14:26] <jgraham> How much?
  517. # [14:26] <gsnedders> Oh, duh.
  518. # [14:26] <jgraham> Does it break back compatibility for example?
  519. # [14:26] <annevk42> needs a new constructor that changes behavior
  520. # [14:27] <jgraham> That seems like a pretty big change. What is the new behaviour
  521. # [14:27] <jgraham> ?
  522. # [14:27] <annevk42> acting as if the sending origin was null and not include any credentials in the request
  523. # [14:28] <annevk42> a sandboxed iframe gives you exactly that
  524. # [14:28] <jgraham> Yeah
  525. # [14:29] <jgraham> Well maybe it is worth trying to reduce the overlap between the two solutions if thay are going to cause significant duplication of functionality but in different places
  526. # [14:32] <annevk42> my current tactic is "look, sandboxed iframes"
  527. # [14:32] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-13b253b1f16f76d6)
  528. # [14:37] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  529. # [14:48] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160vobr.cable.mindspring.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  530. # [15:38] * Disconnected
  531. # [15:38] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  532. # [15:38] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  533. # [15:38] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  534. # [15:38] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  535. # [15:39] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  536. # [15:49] * Joins: philipj (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com)
  537. # [15:49] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  538. # [15:50] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  539. # [15:50] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  540. # [15:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  541. # [15:51] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Nick collision from services.)
  542. # [15:51] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  543. # [15:51] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  544. # [15:51] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  545. # [16:06] * Quits: philipj_ (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  546. # [16:19] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  547. # [16:21] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  548. # [16:22] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  549. # [16:24] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-166-245-47.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  550. # [16:32] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  551. # [16:32] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Client Quit)
  552. # [16:34] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip160.unival.com)
  553. # [16:35] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  554. # [16:47] <tantek> Hixie, classid and type do have different semantics though (what piece of code is preferred to run this thing, what is the data type of this thing), that have been shown to have utility in various systems, even before the web.
  555. # [16:47] <tantek> E.g. MacOS files have the notion of Type and Creator. If the Creator is found for opening a file then it is used, otherwise, the system looks for what other applications support the Type of document, and give the user the option of opening the document in one of those apps.
  556. # [16:48] <tantek> And you could certainly base support for classid on existing web content that uses it.
  557. # [16:48] * Quits: ezyang (n=ezyang@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU) (Remote closed the connection)
  558. # [16:49] * tantek is not a huge supporter of classid, but there are the facts behind it that should be considered from a scientific perspective before rejecting/removing it.
  559. # [16:54] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@114.51.35.12)
  560. # [16:55] <gsnedders> In title case, should à be capitalized (en français)?
  561. # [16:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  562. # [16:58] * Joins: Guest88730 (i=beos@213.66.216.93)
  563. # [17:03] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  564. # [17:03] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  565. # [17:05] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  566. # [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  567. # [17:07] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213.66.216.93) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  568. # [17:07] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  569. # [17:07] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com)
  570. # [17:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123) (Remote closed the connection)
  571. # [17:10] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  572. # [17:15] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-160-92.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  573. # [17:17] * Quits: Guest88730 (i=beos@213.66.216.93) (Success)
  574. # [17:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123)
  575. # [17:20] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  576. # [17:23] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/session)
  577. # [17:29] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123) (Remote closed the connection)
  578. # [17:32] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  579. # [17:33] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  580. # [17:53] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.79.234.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  581. # [17:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  582. # [18:10] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  583. # [18:13] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  584. # [18:14] * Joins: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  585. # [18:16] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  586. # [18:18] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.79.234.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  587. # [18:19] * Parts: allanmac (n=allanmac@static-68-236-124-210.bos.east.verizon.net)
  588. # [18:30] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  589. # [18:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123)
  590. # [18:35] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com)
  591. # [18:38] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  592. # [18:48] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-171-214.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  593. # [18:50] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009030221 [Firefox 3.6a1pre/20090608145306]")
  594. # [18:51] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-13b253b1f16f76d6) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  595. # [18:51] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  596. # [18:52] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z858d.z.pppool.de)
  597. # [18:52] * Joins: Guest88730 (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  598. # [18:52] * Quits: danbri_ (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  599. # [18:55] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  600. # [18:56] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-3ae51488686ca4bc)
  601. # [18:57] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  602. # [18:57] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  603. # [18:58] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  604. # [19:00] <annevk42> someone joked about grids for the Web and it taking ten years
  605. # [19:00] <annevk42> first time it was discussed on a public list was early '95 apparently: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/1995Jun/0000.html
  606. # [19:01] <annevk42> where "early" means "halfway"
  607. # [19:02] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Connection timed out)
  608. # [19:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@62.213.132.123) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  609. # [19:08] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2188-ipbf6208marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  610. # [19:10] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  611. # [19:11] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  612. # [19:11] <beowulf> don't we already have grids in tables...
  613. # [19:12] * beowulf gets his coat
  614. # [19:12] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-3ae51488686ca4bc) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  615. # [19:20] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com)
  616. # [19:21] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl) (Remote closed the connection)
  617. # [19:21] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  618. # [19:27] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  619. # [19:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  620. # [19:28] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  621. # [19:28] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Client Quit)
  622. # [19:30] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  623. # [19:33] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  624. # [19:34] * Quits: philipj (n=philipj@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  625. # [19:38] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7) (Client Quit)
  626. # [19:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  627. # [19:46] * Quits: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  628. # [19:49] * Joins: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net)
  629. # [19:49] * Quits: ciaran_lee (n=ciaran_l@83-70-243-34-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  630. # [19:52] <jgraham> annevk42: The lack of grid layouts is far and away the biggest failing of CSS
  631. # [19:52] <jgraham> Probably one of the biggest failings in the web standards world
  632. # [19:53] <annevk42> The group responsible for CSS mostly appears interested in print and documents
  633. # [19:54] <annevk42> Though to be fair grid layout is more seriously being worked on now
  634. # [19:55] <jgraham> annevk42: It has been "being worked on" for a long time. There have been drafts since at least 2000 right?
  635. # [19:55] <annevk42> I don't think so
  636. # [19:56] <annevk42> I think flex is really cool, but there's nobody to really drive it :/
  637. # [19:56] <krijnh> Wasn't Hixie planning to pull a WHATWG on the CSSWG?
  638. # [19:57] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  639. # [19:57] <jgraham> It is pretty sad that Mozilla havn't managed to drive it to completion
  640. # [19:57] <annevk42> Though we do have a draft of it now: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/
  641. # [19:57] <krijnh> Somewhere around 2023
  642. # [19:57] <annevk42> But that is the old draft
  643. # [19:57] <annevk42> krijnh, we need an editor first :)
  644. # [19:58] <krijnh> By that time we can clone people
  645. # [19:58] <jgraham> annevk42: Is dbaron not working on it anymore?
  646. # [19:59] <annevk42> jgraham, I believe he is looking into it now, yes
  647. # [19:59] <jgraham> awesome
  648. # [19:59] <jgraham> I hope he is able to finish it soon
  649. # [20:01] <annevk2> problem with flex is that it's 1D; it's not grids
  650. # [20:02] <annevk2> there was some 2D flex proposal floating around based on tables, but only in email and very vague
  651. # [20:02] <jgraham> Does XUL have more than that?
  652. # [20:02] <jgraham> If webapps can have good enough layout primitives to do everything that XUL can do it is a huge win
  653. # [20:02] <jgraham> even if better ones would be nice
  654. # [20:03] <annevk2> XUL has some kind of weird grid model besides flex
  655. # [20:03] <annevk2> from what I heard we don't wanna copy that
  656. # [20:08] <krijnh> What's wrong with position: inline-absolute? http://www.shauninman.com/archive/2006/05/22/clearance_position_inline_absolute
  657. # [20:08] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  658. # [20:09] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  659. # [20:13] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2) (Client Quit)
  660. # [20:15] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  661. # [20:16] * Joins: _trace (n=_trace@65.19.81.253)
  662. # [20:17] <_trace> question re:html5...
  663. # [20:17] <_trace> any good examples on 'article' and 'section' element usage?
  664. # [20:18] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  665. # [20:18] <_trace> should I be using a single 'article' element with multiple 'section's for each article on the same page, or multiple 'article's?
  666. # [20:19] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  667. # [20:19] <jgraham> _trace: multiple <article> elements
  668. # [20:19] <jgraham> One per article
  669. # [20:19] <hober> _trace: "for each article" suggests multiple <article>s
  670. # [20:19] <jgraham> <section> for subsecions of the article, if any
  671. # [20:19] <_trace> jgraham: thanks, that's what I thought, but I was seeing conflicting info in various articles
  672. # [20:20] <_trace> hober: thanks
  673. # [20:20] <jgraham> _trace: Got any examples of articles you found confusing?
  674. # [20:21] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip-176-43.sn3.eutelia.it)
  675. # [20:23] <_trace> well, http://www.alistapart.com/articles/previewofhtml5/ didn't specifically mention multiple articles, http://www.w3schools.com/tags/html5_article.asp mentioned 'article' was for content from an 'external' provider...
  676. # [20:23] <jgraham> Oh wow. w3schools ftw
  677. # [20:24] <jgraham> (it is totally misleading)
  678. # [20:24] <_trace> but the current draft of the HTML5 spec was vague, but I read it as meaning a single 'article' per article...
  679. # [20:24] <_trace> yeah, I ignored that since I didn't read the HTML5 draft that way at all
  680. # [20:24] <jgraham> If you have suggestions for clarifying the spec, you should talk to Hixie
  681. # [20:25] <_trace> jgraham: excellent
  682. # [20:26] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  683. # [20:28] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  684. # [20:29] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  685. # [20:29] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  686. # [20:29] * Quits: _trace (n=_trace@65.19.81.253)
  687. # [20:30] * Joins: bgalbraith_ (n=bgalbrai@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  688. # [20:31] <annevk2> krijnh, looks complex
  689. # [20:31] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  690. # [20:33] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1)
  691. # [20:33] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1) (Client Quit)
  692. # [20:34] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1)
  693. # [20:35] <hober> I only use Google's SearchWiki feature to remove w3schools results...
  694. # [20:36] <annevk2> the fact is though that nobody has come up with a good competitor to w3schools
  695. # [20:36] <annevk2> you'd think that a wiki/Web 2.0 like approach would be an instant hit
  696. # [20:37] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  697. # [20:38] <annevk2> maybe the competition gets all up in terminology all the time though and competes using "element" rather than "tag"
  698. # [20:39] <krijnh> annevk2: complex?
  699. # [20:39] <krijnh> :S
  700. # [20:42] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  701. # [20:42] <annevk2> krijnh, besides it doesn't do a whole lot of things that grids/flex would allow for
  702. # [20:42] <sayrer> grids/flex god
  703. # [20:42] <krijnh> True
  704. # [20:42] <sayrer> please
  705. # [20:43] <sayrer> I can't stand to read another article on lame CSS to simulate that
  706. # [20:43] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.109.27.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  707. # [20:46] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  708. # [20:48] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@guest-224.mv.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  709. # [20:50] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.7)
  710. # [20:55] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  711. # [21:00] * Quits: bgalbraith_ (n=bgalbrai@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  712. # [21:08] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@adsl-144-138-35.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  713. # [21:08] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z858d.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  714. # [21:13] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  715. # [21:16] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  716. # [21:16] * riven` is now known as riven
  717. # [21:19] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-564ea647433bd41b)
  718. # [21:20] <rubys> there is a required audio format, at the moment there is no required video formats, is (are?) there any required image format(s)?
  719. # [21:23] <annevk2> they're not listed
  720. # [21:23] <annevk2> but I believe the plan is to list them at some point
  721. # [21:25] <annevk2> PNG is required for <canvas>
  722. # [21:25] <annevk2> at this point
  723. # [21:26] <rubys> png as an *output* format
  724. # [21:26] <annevk2> good point
  725. # [21:27] <jgraham> We should probably list gif/jpeg/png since they are required to support the web
  726. # [21:27] <annevk2> (though everyone expects roundtripping to work of course)
  727. # [21:27] <rubys> svg's status seems unclear
  728. # [21:28] <annevk2> unclear how?
  729. # [21:28] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@46.80-202-223.nextgentel.com)
  730. # [21:28] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  731. # [21:28] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  732. # [21:29] <rubys> can a browser correctly claim to support HTML5, but support only gif/jpeg/png as image formats?
  733. # [21:29] <jgraham> An image format in <img>?
  734. # [21:30] <jgraham> I don't see why not at the moment
  735. # [21:30] <annevk2> SVG and MathML are part of HTML5 in a way
  736. # [21:30] <sayrer> I think it needs to support ico
  737. # [21:30] <rubys> at the moment, that appears to also be true for png; but I'm not asking about "at the moment", but the intent
  738. # [21:30] <jgraham> I don't know if we have defined what should happen for svg-in-<img> yet
  739. # [21:31] <jgraham> sayrer: .ico in <img> or for favicons?
  740. # [21:31] * Joins: paul_irish (i=0c21effa@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-dd095ee38d03359c)
  741. # [21:31] <sayrer> jgraham: hmm, not sure about img, but browsers can also view favicons in the content window
  742. # [21:31] <jgraham> (svg-in-<img> has differnt behaviour compared to <svg>-in-html with respect to e.g. scripting)
  743. # [21:32] <rubys> jgraham: if it has any behavior at all :-)
  744. # [21:32] <annevk2> heh
  745. # [21:32] <jgraham> sayrer: How? Is it needed for webcompat? You could make a browser today that didn't have favicons
  746. # [21:33] <jgraham> and the UI would probably suck but otherwise it would be OK, no?
  747. # [21:33] <annevk2> I'm not sure what the complete list is rubys, but I imagine APNG to be there
  748. # [21:33] <annevk2> and BMP
  749. # [21:35] <annevk2> heh, this <nfsw> thing has a whole share of followers suddenly
  750. # [21:35] <annevk2> e.g. http://twitter.com/corewarrior/statuses/2107076157
  751. # [21:36] <annevk2> it's also being reported as part of HTML5: http://twitter.com/silner/statuses/2106913972
  752. # [21:36] <rubys> s/nfsw/nsfw/
  753. # [21:37] <jgraham> We totally need a National Freedom of Speech Week tag
  754. # [21:39] <annevk2> and also nfslw then
  755. # [21:40] <annevk2> to please our anti-fanboy
  756. # [21:40] * jgraham can't work out all the letters
  757. # [21:41] <annevk2> Last Week!
  758. # [21:41] <jgraham> It was the nfs I was having trouble with...
  759. # [21:42] <annevk2> on the one hand it seems kind of bad for HTML5 to require specific formats, but on the other hand not doing it for things like e.g. <canvas> would be very impractical
  760. # [21:42] <annevk2> oh heh, nsflw
  761. # [21:42] <annevk2> jgraham, I just based it on yours
  762. # [21:43] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  763. # [21:43] <jgraham> Oh OK. I was hoping for "Not Safe For Mr Last Week"
  764. # [21:44] <jgraham> <nsfmlw>Hixie is my God and the W3C sucks</nsfmlw>
  765. # [21:44] <jgraham> That sort of thing
  766. # [21:44] <jgraham> Then when he read the logs it would appear as "Mr last week rules!"
  767. # [21:45] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-564ea647433bd41b) ("The computer fell asleep")
  768. # [21:46] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  769. # [21:47] <annevk2> it's amazing there's still 73 people in this channel with all the nonsense that's going around :p
  770. # [21:49] <jgraham> I assume there are 71 people ignoring this channel
  771. # [21:50] <annevk2> prolly true, although I'm here twice
  772. # [22:01] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-171-214.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  773. # [22:04] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-148.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  774. # [22:05] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  775. # [22:05] <Hixie> did the pfwg just announe their intention to violate w3c process?
  776. # [22:05] * gsnedders points out that we did that ages ago
  777. # [22:06] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  778. # [22:06] <Hixie> we did?
  779. # [22:06] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (Client Quit)
  780. # [22:07] <jgraham> Hixie: Pointer?
  781. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Is not basing decisions on their logical merits against the process as it isn't consensus?
  782. # [22:07] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/20090610153947.GE3371@sonata.rednote.net
  783. # [22:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: We haven't published anything at the W3C without consensus
  784. # [22:08] <Hixie> gsnedders: but that's not the process the wg is following, that's only the process i'm following to make my chartered first proposals
  785. # [22:08] <gsnedders> That is true.
  786. # [22:10] <jgraham> is insure an en-US spelling of ensure?
  787. # [22:12] <Hixie> it appears to be an often used alternative spelling in US-english
  788. # [22:12] <Hixie> (insure also means to obtain insurance, but that's separate)
  789. # [22:13] <Hixie> 37 new e-mails overnight. Man. Every day 100 steps forward, 50 steps back.
  790. # [22:13] <jgraham> It's one of those things that grates ever so slightly when I see it even though I know that is an illogical reaction
  791. # [22:13] <jgraham> (insure that is, not new email)
  792. # [22:13] * gsnedders wonders whether the latest 50 emails on public-html are worth reading
  793. # [22:14] <Hixie> i don't know, i just put them on my pile and will read them next month or so
  794. # [22:15] <gavin_> "insure" as "ensure" bothers me too
  795. # [22:18] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@192.42.249.4)
  796. # [22:19] <annevk2> please tell me if I make a mistake like that
  797. # [22:22] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  798. # [22:23] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@adsl-144-138-35.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  799. # [22:25] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@129.33.49.251)
  800. # [22:25] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D22C.cable.ziggo.nl)
  801. # [22:37] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@192.42.249.4)
  802. # [22:38] * Joins: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.10)
  803. # [22:38] * Joins: ezyang (n=ezyang@VINEGAR-POT.MIT.EDU)
  804. # [22:40] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com)
  805. # [22:41] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@192.42.249.4)
  806. # [22:44] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  807. # [22:56] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@EM114-51-140-194.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  808. # [22:57] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  809. # [22:59] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@192.42.249.10)
  810. # [23:00] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@192.42.249.2)
  811. # [23:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@192.42.249.4)
  812. # [23:06] * slightlyoff_afk is now known as slightlyoff
  813. # [23:18] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@114.51.35.12) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  814. # [23:18] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-164-70.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  815. # [23:21] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@80-225-75-177.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  816. # [23:21] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@80-225-75-177.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  817. # [23:22] <Lachy> people who use insure in place of ensure simply don't know how to spell. Anyone who claims it's a valid alternative spelling is wrong
  818. # [23:22] <roc> many dictionaries do
  819. # [23:24] <Hixie> i was in fact quoting the dictionary macs ship with
  820. # [23:25] <gavin_> see usage note at http://www.answers.com/topic/assure
  821. # [23:27] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.224.1)
  822. # [23:30] <Lachy> Wow, that's even crazier than people who spell "percent" as "per cent". My Australian dictionary only has the insurace related meanings for insure.
  823. # [23:31] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  824. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: You realize in en-gb per cent is normal?
  825. # [23:33] <Lachy> gsnedders, yes, it's the one case where en-gb is stupid
  826. # [23:34] <jgraham> Lachy: You realise that once upon a time percent was probbly spelt per cent, right? People get things "wrong", language changes, grammer nazis find something new to complain about
  827. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, it's just we haven't got around to putting it together yet, right?
  828. # [23:34] <jgraham> *probably
  829. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: It was once everywhere two words
  830. # [23:34] <Hixie> unless en-au has a normative spec, there's not much point arguing over what is right
  831. # [23:35] <Hixie> that's why i have a normative spec for en-gb-x-hixie :-)
  832. # [23:35] <Lachy> it makes no sense as two words because percentage is one word
  833. # [23:35] * gsnedders points out there is o normative spec for en-gb either :P
  834. # [23:35] <Lachy> actually, en-au is wrong on that case too
  835. # [23:35] <gsnedders> en-gb-x-sneddy really ought to have a spec
  836. # [23:35] <jgraham> Woah, back up there. You seem to be trying to apply logic to spelling rules
  837. # [23:35] <Philip`> Lachy: "percentage" makes no sense as one word because "per cent" is two
  838. # [23:36] <jgraham> It isn't going to work
  839. # [23:37] * Parts: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.109.27.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  840. # [23:37] <Lachy> it also makes no sense because the word cent on its own has its own meaning as a unit of currency, and when you write it as per cent it makes it appear as though it's referring to the currency, not %
  841. # [23:37] <jgraham> Fun fact: There is research into double negatives that shows that languages go in cycles on whether double negatives are used for negation or not
  842. # [23:38] <Philip`> Lachy: You think words should only ever have one meaning?
  843. # [23:38] <Lachy> no, I didn't say that
  844. # [23:38] <jgraham> So a language will start with single negation and people will start using double negaion for emphasis. Then people will again start to favour single negation for brevity and the cycle will repeat
  845. # [23:38] <jgraham> Or something
  846. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Lachy: cent also means one hundred :P
  847. # [23:39] <gsnedders> (At least in Latin, and Latin is a proper language)
  848. # [23:39] <Lachy> Philip`, consider the phrase "I got 5 per cent". Depending on context, that could mean "I got 5 [items] per cent (currency)" or "I got 5%"
  849. # [23:40] <Lachy> writing it without the space removes the ambiguity and makes it easier to read
  850. # [23:41] <Philip`> ("per cent" is apparently an abbreviation of "per centum", so the two-word form seems the more original)
  851. # [23:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: The phrase "proper language" used without a smilie is sure to raise ire
  852. # [23:42] <Philip`> Lachy: Trying to make all sentences unambiguous independent of context seems like a battle that was lost millennia ago
  853. # [23:43] <Philip`> Context matters, and this isn't an example that seems ambiguous when you do have context
  854. # [23:43] * Joins: rubys1 (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  855. # [23:44] <jgraham> I would wager that thre has never been a language that could be understood in an entirely context free way
  856. # [23:44] <jgraham> Because the difficulty of arriving at such a thing would be huge yet its value would be rather small
  857. # [23:46] <Philip`> Not even Lojban
  858. # [23:48] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  859. # [23:51] <jgraham> I guess languages with no (native) speakers don't count. But even so I wonder if it is truly context free
  860. # [23:57] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-166-245-47.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  861. # [23:59] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  862. # Session Close: Thu Jun 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)