/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] * Parts: billmason (n=billmaso@ip7.unival.com)
  4. # [00:04] <Hixie> sicking: oh i got a response back from the gmail guys about the filedialog thing -- if you can get arun here that'd be great to discuss it
  5. # [00:05] <sicking> Hixie, you should mail arun and me so we can figure out a day that works
  6. # [00:08] <sicking> Hixie, what about storing File in localStorage?
  7. # [00:08] <sicking> Hixie, I'd imagine that that's needed for offline-gmail
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  11. # [00:15] <Hixie> sicking: well i'm free whenever
  12. # [00:15] <annevk5> sicking, would that do a copy or reference the file on disk?
  13. # [00:15] <Hixie> sicking: gmail uses the sql database stuff for their offline gmail
  14. # [00:16] <Hixie> sicking: but yes, they would like a way to store references to Files while waiting for an opportunity to upload them
  15. # [00:16] <Hixie> sicking: i was more talking about FileDialog though
  16. # [00:16] <Hixie> sicking: turns out they didn't use flash to avoid using <input type=file> at all -- in fact they didn't even list that as a reason for using flash until i specifically asked them about it
  17. # [00:16] <Hixie> sicking: and then they dismissed that as not a big deal
  18. # [00:16] <annevk5> if you just wanna store references the local:<id> thing would work I think, you can just store those in localStorage
  19. # [00:17] <sicking> annevk5, how its stored seems like an implementation detail. I'd imagine sqlite has blob support
  20. # [00:17] <annevk5> Hixie, did they use it for async upload and multiple files?
  21. # [00:18] <Hixie> sicking: i wouldn't expect the local:<id> thing to survive page load, but i guess that depends on how we define it
  22. # [00:18] <sicking> Hixie, yeah, my question about localStorage was orthogonal to the meeting
  23. # [00:18] <Hixie> er
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> s/sicking/anne/
  25. # [00:18] <annevk5> sicking, it's not an implementation detail, a reference to the file is very different from copying it
  26. # [00:19] <annevk5> e.g. the user could modify the file later on
  27. # [00:19] <Hixie> annevk5: the two things they said were multiselection of photos, and file upload progress.
  28. # [00:19] <sicking> annevk5, ah, yes, we should define that it's the contents of the file at the time of the call to store it in localStore
  29. # [00:19] <annevk5> Hixie, yay for me guessing why they used Flash
  30. # [00:20] <annevk5> and boo for sicking not believing me :p
  31. # [00:20] <Hixie> annevk5: and then they added dnd of files, local display of files while uploading, and selecting or uploading a whole folder at once
  32. # [00:20] <sicking> annevk5, i prefer data over guessing
  33. # [00:20] <Hixie> and finally they mentioned the <input accept=""> feature (though not by name)
  34. # [00:20] <sicking> annevk5, except when I'm the one guessing
  35. # [00:20] <sicking> annevk5, :)
  36. # [00:20] <annevk5> sicking, so it appears :)
  37. # [00:20] <Hixie> oh and resuming uploads after browser crash
  38. # [00:21] <Hixie> though that one was more theoretical
  39. # [00:21] <sicking> Hixie, flash supports that?
  40. # [00:21] <annevk5> i always wonder whether selecting a folder should be a UI feature or some semantic thing like <input type=folder>
  41. # [00:21] <Hixie> i think that was after they transitioned from why they used flash to what they wanted most of all
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  43. # [00:22] <sicking> Hixie, localStorage being able to store files would take care of that
  44. # [00:22] <Hixie> anyway their answer to "so, uh, styling of <input type=file> isn't an issue?" was basically "oh i guess that would be nice too" but they basically said it wasn't a big deal compared to the rest
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  46. # [00:22] * jacobolus_ is now known as jacobolus
  47. # [00:22] <Hixie> so i vote for dropping FileDialog for now
  48. # [00:22] <sicking> we'll see
  49. # [00:22] * Quits: onar_ (n=onar@17.244.69.239)
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> sicking: or the sql database, yeah
  51. # [00:23] <sicking> Hixie, yeah, though i'm not sure what our timeline is for sql database. I think we still want to see some other API
  52. # [00:23] <sicking> Hixie, have had some discussions about that internally recently
  53. # [00:23] <Hixie> yeah, we were talking about it in #developers recently too
  54. # [00:23] <sicking> ok
  55. # [00:24] <Hixie> basically i'm gonna do nothing on the sql front until october and then i'm gonna suggest moving to LC
  56. # [00:24] <sicking> mostly due to the pains of standardizing a SQL dialect, and then having to implement a sql parser that maps that dialect to sqlite
  57. # [00:24] <Hixie> and after that look into speccing teh actual dialect
  58. # [00:24] <Hixie> so you have until then to come up with a better solution :-)
  59. # [00:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.114)
  60. # [00:24] <sicking> i don't see how we could move into LC without a dialect
  61. # [00:24] <Hixie> which i'd likely support since i have no desire to actual spec out the dialect :-)
  62. # [00:25] <sicking> heh
  63. # [00:25] <sicking> hence i vote for File in localStorage for now :)
  64. # [00:25] <Hixie> well the dialect would be its own spec i think
  65. # [00:25] <sicking> and across postMessage
  66. # [00:25] <Hixie> i don't know what file in localStorage would really be
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> postMessage should definitely support it
  68. # [00:26] <sicking> Hixie, what do you mean, what it would be?
  69. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Oh dear…
  70. # [00:26] <Hixie> sicking: well localStorage up to now has only been unstructured name-value string pairs
  71. # [00:26] <sicking> Hixie, can't we just make the value <string-or-file>?
  72. # [00:26] <gsnedders> If you follow the rules for comparing charsets in UTS #22, you end up with iso-ir-9-1 and iso-ir-91 being identical, but they shouldn't be.
  73. # [00:27] <Hixie> sicking: i don't think gmail wants an unstructured answer here; and extending DOMString to DOMString-or-File seems weird when you don't allow anything else
  74. # [00:27] <sicking> nono, not touch DOMString
  75. # [00:27] <Hixie> gsnedders: do browsers support those?
  76. # [00:27] <sicking> that would be, um, crazy
  77. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: No idea.
  78. # [00:27] <Hixie> sicking: that's what i'm saying :-P
  79. # [00:27] <Hixie> sicking: anyway, send mail
  80. # [00:27] <Hixie> sicking: i'm swamped right now
  81. # [00:27] <sicking> ok
  82. # [00:28] <Hixie> sicking: and waiting for arun to finish his draft before i think of this
  83. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: On an HTML 5 note, it'd be nice if the charset override table used the same case as the IANA registry (i.e., lowercase "w" for "windows-*")
  84. # [00:28] <sicking> ok, i'll try to spend some time with him touching up the current draft
  85. # [00:29] <sicking> it needs a lot of editing, but I'm not sure that the actual APIs will be much different from what we have now
  86. # [00:29] <sicking> apart from Annes bikeshedding ;)
  87. # [00:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: send mail
  88. # [00:29] <sicking> and possibly FileDialog since you're all a bunch of pansies ;)
  89. # [00:29] * gsnedders was expecting that answer :)
  90. # [00:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: the reasons cited for using Flash to upload sound just like what the MobileMe people told us
  91. # [00:30] <othermaciej> which is why we added multi-file selection and file upload progress (via XHR) to Safari
  92. # [00:30] <annevk5> sicking, arun already accepted all my comments :)
  93. # [00:30] <annevk5> sicking, well, apart from FileDialog, but it seems I'm not alone
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  95. # [00:31] <sicking> annevk5, see above re 'pansy' ;)
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  97. # [00:32] <annevk5> sicking, says the man who doesn't wanna do redirects :p
  98. # [00:33] <sicking> annevk5, redirects are the root of all evil
  99. # [00:33] <sicking> annevk5, together with money
  100. # [00:33] <sicking> annevk5, and premature optimizations
  101. # [00:33] <Hixie> scripting modal dialogs are the root of more evil than redirects :-P
  102. # [00:34] <sicking> there's going to be a dialog no matter what (in the non-dnd case)
  103. # [00:34] <Hixie> a user-invoked one is not a big deal
  104. # [00:34] <sicking> The difference between having it triggered by an arbitrary click, and on a JS call, is very small
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  106. # [00:34] <sicking> Hixie, UAs are free to warn instead of putting up a dialog if the JS-call happens outside a click
  107. # [00:35] <sicking> Hixie, a'la popup blockers
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  110. # [00:36] <Hixie> sicking: any feature that is admitted to need popup-blocker-like treatment _at the design stage_ is imho a non-starter
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  114. # [00:43] <sicking> Hixie, i don't think it needs a popup blocker
  115. # [00:43] <sicking> Hixie, IE has had this API for ages. Granted, that's not the best indicator ever
  116. # [00:44] <sicking> Hixie, also, geoid is doing the same thing
  117. # [00:47] <Hixie> IE doing something is not a good indicator that it is secure.
  118. # [00:47] <sicking> i know, but i've never heard or people being annoyed by it
  119. # [00:47] <Hixie> and the geoloc stuff isn't a modal dialog, it pops up an asynchronous UI that can then later cause the script to get a callback
  120. # [00:47] <sicking> or attacked by it
  121. # [00:47] <Hixie> anyway
  122. # [00:47] <sicking> FileDialog is async too
  123. # [00:47] <Hixie> we don't have a need for this, and people aren't really happy about it
  124. # [00:48] <Hixie> so why do it
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  130. # [01:02] <Hixie> hsivonen, others: i'm writing a section for the parser spec talking about some error handling cases and basically explaining how they end up as they do
  131. # [01:02] <Hixie> if you have any specific error cases you would like me to discuss in particular, let mek now
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  163. # [03:34] <jruderman> Hixie: is http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#dom-window-close intended to be vague on what browsers are allowed to do in non-auxilary cases?
  164. # [03:34] <jruderman> (e.g. show a dialog, or employ heuristics mentioned in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=190515#c70)
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  173. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> sayrer: you around?
  174. # [04:46] <sayrer> MikeSmith: hi
  175. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> hey man
  176. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> about your message http://www.w3.org/mid/4A3AF8B9.8040700@mozilla.com
  177. # [04:47] <sayrer> ah, yes
  178. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> you are encouraged to open bugs in the W3C bugzilla
  179. # [04:47] <sayrer> but not reopen them?
  180. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> there is intentionally no process for it
  181. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> no, you can reopen them too
  182. # [04:48] <sayrer> oh, I wonder if I just missed the button
  183. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> it is intended to be a relative free-for-all in that regard
  184. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> intended by me, I mean, when I set it up for the group
  185. # [04:48] <sayrer> mmm, no, I can't reopen things
  186. # [04:49] <sayrer> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7034
  187. # [04:49] <sayrer> no buttons to do so
  188. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> hmm, OK
  189. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> hang on for a couple minutes, I will take a look at it
  190. # [04:49] <sayrer> I can file things
  191. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> I am pretty sure I can change your individual perms
  192. # [04:50] <sayrer> hope this HTML WG is the right HTML WG
  193. # [04:50] <sayrer> :)
  194. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> heh
  195. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> I think we are just using the default bugzilla perms, but anyway, lemme take a look
  196. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> sayrer: so, to be clear, when you are logged in an go to http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7034
  197. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> there is no "Reopen bug" radio button
  198. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> under the Additional Comments textarea?
  199. # [04:52] <sayrer> where should I look?
  200. # [04:52] <sayrer> nope
  201. # [04:52] <sayrer> not there
  202. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> OK
  203. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> sayrer: please try again now
  204. # [04:56] <sayrer> tada
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  206. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> I just gave you bugzilla "editbugs" perms. which I guess in bugzilla terms adds you to the editbugs "group"
  207. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> = "Can edit all aspects of any bug."
  208. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> now, what I would like to do is have that be the default for all users of our bugzilla
  209. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> but unfortunately, I reckon that trying to make it so would involve a relatively time-consuming discussion with the powers that be
  210. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> so I guess for now I will just deal with it case by case
  211. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> I wish bugzilla allowed those perms to be set per-Product
  212. # [05:01] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  213. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> sayrer: anyway, if you run into w3c bugzilla problems or have questions about our specific instance of it, please feel free to ping me directly and I'll check asap
  214. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> rather than on public-html, I mean
  215. # [05:03] <sayrer> oh, I wouldn't mail /only/ about bugzilla problems
  216. # [05:03] <sayrer> issue seemed worth raising on the list anyway
  217. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> yeah, the issue does
  218. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> I just mean not administrivia-like stuff on public-html
  219. # [05:04] <sayrer> ok
  220. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> just in the interest of trying to keep traffic volume down on the list
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  222. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> so, about your actual statement in that message, regarding the topic of "content model"
  223. # [05:05] <sayrer> yeah
  224. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> "I can see why this might be tempting to specify for theoretical reasons, but I can't think of a use case."
  225. # [05:06] <sayrer> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/images/content-venn.svg
  226. # [05:06] <sayrer> why does that exist?
  227. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> oh, that
  228. # [05:06] <sayrer> there's also this business of forming outlines
  229. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> it's not clear from you message that that's what you meant
  230. # [05:07] <sayrer> that is the first illustration under "3.4 Content models"
  231. # [05:07] <sayrer> "There are also certain elements that are sectioning roots. These are distinct from sectioning content, but they can also have an outline."
  232. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, I thought you had brought that up before -- the question of the appropriateness of the outline algorithm, I mean
  233. # [05:07] <sayrer> like... what is this...
  234. # [05:08] <sayrer> well, I'm sure whoever answered it thought they did a good job addressing the issue
  235. # [05:08] <sayrer> I should pay more attention
  236. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> sayrer: I think the term "sectioning roots" is Hixie coining a language primitives that he needs to reference in multiple definitions elsewhere
  237. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> I think "sectioning content" is fairly unambiguous
  238. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> or at least a familiar concept
  239. # [05:11] * Parts: olliej (n=oliver@17.246.19.121)
  240. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> sayrer: anyway, I would personally advise/prefer that you raise those kinds of questions individual bugzilla issues -- if/when you have time
  241. # [05:12] <sayrer> hmm yeah
  242. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> in some cases it might be useful to post them directly to public-html too, but I have the bugzilla set up so that an automated notification gets sent to the list each time any bug is first opened or resolved
  243. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> so that way, people who are actually interested enough to want to take time to follow the discussion further can take time to cc themselves to the bugzilla issue
  244. # [05:15] <sayrer> gtg
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  256. # [05:45] <zcorpan_> "Font family names containing more than one word should be quoted." - i've never understood why it should be quoted
  257. # [05:45] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-css3-fonts-20090618/
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  265. # [06:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I have sympathy with sayrer's position (I am not sure authoring conformance requirements are actually useful) but I think his bug report is ridiculous and insulting
  266. # [06:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: and should be closed
  267. # [06:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: snark and sarcasm are not appropriate ways to express differences of opinion in a bug tracker
  268. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: well, I'm the one who raised it initially, with that summary (though in jest)
  269. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> I have learned my lesson
  270. # [06:07] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: in that case - I think your bug report is not an appropriate way to raise an issue
  271. # [06:07] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090618#l-356
  272. # [06:07] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think it should be closed and you and/or Rob should raise sincere issues
  273. # [06:07] <othermaciej> such as "HTML5 should have no authoring conformance requirements"
  274. # [06:08] <othermaciej> or suggesting specific changes to the authoring conformance requirements
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  276. # [06:08] <othermaciej> it's not clear to me which the bug is really asking for - I think it's obvious that literally replacing the text "conformance checker" with "loyalty checker" everywhere is not something anyone sincerely wants
  277. # [06:08] <zcorpan_> i think the requirements are very useful for authors
  278. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, of course
  279. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: but I will let Rob do what he wants we the issue, and let anybody else who uses bugzilla do anything they want with it
  280. # [06:09] <othermaciej> since I haven't used the bug tracker much, I don't feel it's my place to close it
  281. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> I am not going to let that bugzilla become yet another place where we get mired in discussions about what's appropriate and what the process should be
  282. # [06:09] <zcorpan_> isn't the bug closed already?
  283. # [06:09] <othermaciej> but if someone filed a bug like that in WebKit bugzilla, it would be INVALID city, and if people tried to reopen it, they would get a talking to about responsible use of bugzilla
  284. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I closed it, but Rob said he wanted to reopen it, and I said, go ahead
  285. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: our bugzilla is relatively lightly used now -- nothing on the scale of Webkit bugzilla -- and we do not have a general problem
  286. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> if this develops in a bigger problem, then I will do something about it
  287. # [06:11] <othermaciej> sure, but filing sarcastic bug reports and reopening them are still abusive things to do
  288. # [06:11] <othermaciej> you in particular should set a better example
  289. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: add it to the list of many other things in the group that are considered abusive by some members of the group
  290. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: christ
  291. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> I hope you mean that "you in particular should set a better example" sarcastically
  292. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> I can't tell
  293. # [06:12] <othermaciej> fine, I don't want to get mired in a postmodern discussion of whether courtesy is an illusion
  294. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> good
  295. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> I don't want to either
  296. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> but please, seriously, don't schoolmarm me with "you in particular should set a better example" nonsense
  297. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> I get plenty enough of that already
  298. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> believe me
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  300. # [06:17] <zcorpan_> i wonder why jd doesn't put quotes around ECMAScript 4
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  303. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: because he's not afraid of ECMAScript 4
  304. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> he only uses scare quotes to indicate stuff that he's afraid of
  305. # [06:21] <othermaciej> they were scare quotes of disdain
  306. # [06:22] <othermaciej> ECMAScript 4 was based on ActionScript so it would be hard for him to consistently disdain it
  307. # [06:22] <othermaciej> (ES4 also had a lot more hype than reality, somewhat undermining his point...)
  308. # [06:27] <othermaciej> the comments here are entertaining: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=662620
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  315. # [06:58] <sayrer> entertaining, or insulting?
  316. # [06:58] <othermaciej> both!
  317. # [06:58] <sayrer> regarding the bug report: I did not file it, but I do think it raises a real issue
  318. # [06:59] <sayrer> and the title is only insulting to the extent that it is poignant
  319. # [06:59] <othermaciej> sayrer: I think a sincere bug that suggests removing conformance requirements would be useful
  320. # [06:59] <sayrer> there is no swearing or personal attacks
  321. # [06:59] <othermaciej> or a bug that suggested specific changes to removing conformance requirements
  322. # [07:00] <sayrer> so I think politeness police kind of stuff is bikeshedding
  323. # [07:00] <othermaciej> I think sarcastically requesting a change that is not what is actually desired, without making it clear what is desired, is a bad use of the bug tracker
  324. # [07:00] <othermaciej> filing the bug in the first place could be seen as comedy, reopening it is abusive
  325. # [07:00] <sayrer> yes, I think your point, while possibly valid, is unimportant
  326. # [07:00] <sayrer> reopening the bug is not abusive
  327. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> sayrer: I agree with othermaciej that we would be better off if you changed the title of the bug
  328. # [07:01] <sayrer> I went and asked for permision to reopen it from the person who filed it
  329. # [07:01] <othermaciej> chain reopening sarcastic bugs is a waste of people's time, and not likely to lead to any productive outcome
  330. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> sayrer: I mean better off in that if you actually want people to take the issue seriously
  331. # [07:01] <sayrer> Larry and Maciej seem to want to change the title... I don't care what it is
  332. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> sayrer: if you don't care what it is, I will go ahead and change it
  333. # [07:02] <sayrer> go for it
  334. # [07:02] <sayrer> of course, now it's been defaced by maciej lecturing :)
  335. # [07:04] <othermaciej> I think my point was valid, and if it was unimportant, then surely debating its unimportance is an even greater waste of time
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  338. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> I have re-learnedd the lesson that attempts at humor are most successful among a group of people who are reasonably familiar with each, but less successful in a group a people who have a tendency to be distrustful of each others and who are prone to suspect (or even openly accuse) each other of having ulterior motives
  339. # [07:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  340. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> (reasonably familiar with each other)
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  346. # [07:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I get that you were trying to be funny, and I don't want to say humor in a bug tracker is always wrong, it's just that mixing it up with a substantive issue of controversy and combined with reopening it starts to be less funny
  347. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> yep, point taken
  348. # [07:30] <othermaciej> I regret being heavy-handed in my complaining about it
  349. # [07:30] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  350. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: np. I regret having filed it as bug to begin with
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  354. # [07:49] * zcorpan_ wonders why http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-css3-fonts-20090618/ refers to "XHTML headings" rather than "HTML headings"
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  360. # [08:04] <Hixie> jruderman: send mail, sorry can't reply right now
  361. # [08:05] <zcorpan_> i wonder if 'unicode-range' is a good feature to have
  362. # [08:05] <zcorpan_> does anyone implement it?
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  364. # [08:07] <zcorpan_> if an author wants to optimize bandwidth, it seems Philip`'s approach is more effective
  365. # [08:08] <zcorpan_> i mean, in the example, a 4.5 MB font is downloaded just to render an arrow
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  370. # [08:29] <zcorpan_> "Matching occurs in a well-defined order to insure ..."
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  376. # [08:47] <heycam> Hixie, are you happy with the statement in html5 about document.all booleanifying to false remaining there? or do you think it needs to web idl?
  377. # [08:47] <heycam> i suppose whatever spec defines style.filter needs it
  378. # [08:48] <heycam> then again, it's just one sentence of prose, so it's not that much of a burden to really need an [Undetectable] in web idl
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  383. # [08:56] * zcorpan_ updates https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox to use <object> instead of <applet>
  384. # [08:57] <zcorpan_> heycam: typeof document.all should return 'undefined', iirc
  385. # [08:57] <heycam> zcorpan_, ah. at least that's within the realms of conformance to the ecmascript spec.
  386. # [08:58] <heycam> i suppose Hixie should add that then (as long as [Undetectable] isn't in web idl)
  387. # [08:58] <Hixie> heycam: i've no idea. i couldn't get browser vendors to tell me anything useful.
  388. # [09:00] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/146
  389. # [09:02] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/147 - firefox false, webkit and opera true
  390. # [09:02] <zcorpan_> do instanceof doesn't seem to need anything special
  391. # [09:02] <zcorpan_> but typeof does
  392. # [09:04] <zcorpan_> firefox stringifies to 'undefined' too, but opera and webkit don't
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  394. # [09:09] <zcorpan_> it seems firefox tries to make it as undetectable as possible, while opera and webkit try to do as little as necessary to be compatible with web content
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  397. # [09:30] <othermaciej> I can tell you guys what we do to make document.all undetectable
  398. # [09:31] <othermaciej> it's more than just the typeof thing
  399. # [09:31] <othermaciej> does HTML5 intend to spec document.all?
  400. # [09:31] <othermaciej> (I couldn't find it in the IDL but maybe it's spec'd elsewhere?)
  401. # [09:31] <Hixie> it does spec it already
  402. # [09:31] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: you can reply to my email on public-html :)
  403. # [09:32] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i did the reverse engineering; the question was what was actually needed and what were browser vendors willing to change to doing
  404. # [09:32] <othermaciej> the HTMLDocument interface definition doesn't seem to list an "all" property
  405. # [09:33] <othermaciej> where is it spec'd?
  406. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#dom-document-all
  407. # [09:34] <zcorpan_> Hixie: someone at opera said typeof was required for web compat
  408. # [09:34] <othermaciej> I see
  409. # [09:35] <othermaciej> splitting the interfaces is a bit unwieldy
  410. # [09:35] <othermaciej> though I can understand it as a way to hide the bad stuff
  411. # [09:36] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe you should include the obsolete stuff together with the other things but hide it behind class=impl (and have // obsolete in the IDL)?
  412. # [09:36] <zcorpan_> although i guess having it in a separate section is better for authors and implementors will see the obsolete section anyway
  413. # [09:36] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It'd be great if someone made a font format that could just download the glyphs that were needed on demand, so you wouldn't have to download the entire font or subset it in advance
  414. # [09:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: indeed
  415. # [09:37] <Philip`> but it seems everyone wants to invent new formats to add DRM capabilities, not to add any actually useful features
  416. # [09:37] <heycam> Hixie, did you in the end need something from Web IDL for the split window "this" issue?
  417. # [09:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: still, 'unicode-range' is not it
  418. # [09:37] <heycam> i.e. where "this" means the WindowProxy instead of the Window?
  419. # [09:37] <Hixie> heycam: no
  420. # [09:37] <heycam> ok cool
  421. # [09:37] * heycam is going through some old notes
  422. # [09:37] <Hixie> heycam: search HTML5 for WindowProxy if you want to see how i ended up doing it
  423. # [09:38] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  424. # [09:40] * zcorpan_ should get better at quoting the spec in his spec feedback emails
  425. # [09:42] <othermaciej> I sent what I think is an exhaustive list of what we do
  426. # [09:42] <othermaciej> zcorpan_: I'm an implementor and I didn't see it til it was pointed out
  427. # [09:42] <othermaciej> though I guess I will know to look for them now
  428. # [09:42] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe you should have <span class=impl>// further members are specified <span>xref</span></span> in the main IDL
  429. # [09:43] <Hixie> zcorpan_: that's a good idea; file a bug for me?
  430. # [09:43] <othermaciej> basically what we do is make sure document.all compares as false in boolean comparisons, has a type of "undefined", and compares equal to undefined, null and false
  431. # [09:43] <othermaciej> (bot not strict equal)
  432. # [09:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: i saw all kinds of weird per-op-code behaviour when i was looking at jsc
  433. # [09:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: I believe all of that behavior implements what I described above and nothing more
  434. # [09:44] <othermaciej> I may have missed a spot
  435. # [09:44] <othermaciej> but I don't think so
  436. # [09:44] <Hixie> cool
  437. # [09:45] <zcorpan_> opera doesn't do the equals thing it seems
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  439. # [09:45] <othermaciej> I believe we apply the exact same set of hacks to style.filter
  440. # [09:45] <heycam> Hixie, at one point you asked about an open issues list for Web IDL. That list should just be the red notes in the spec, now.
  441. # [09:46] <Hixie> heycam: cool
  442. # [09:46] <Hixie> heycam: good to know
  443. # [09:46] <heycam> so if there is something you requested that hasn't been handled but doesn't have a red note, let me know
  444. # [09:46] <Hixie> roger
  445. # [09:46] <othermaciej> (btw I should note that, at least for us, undetectability belongs to the object implementing document.all, not to the property)
  446. # [09:46] <othermaciej> (so if you do var failAPI = document.all, then failAPI will have all the same forms of undetectability)
  447. # [09:48] <zcorpan_> that's the same in opera i think
  448. # [09:48] <othermaciej> I think Mozilla does something elaborate and weird that may be specific to the context of an if statement
  449. # [09:49] <Hixie> not sure how to define that things are == null and == undefined
  450. # [09:49] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  451. # [09:49] <Hixie> but i'm sure i'll figure out a way
  452. # [09:50] <othermaciej> what's hard about it?
  453. # [09:50] <zcorpan_> Hixie: opera doesn't do that, so it might not be needed for compat
  454. # [09:50] <othermaciej> can't you just literally list some of the ECMAScript expressions that MUST evaluate to certain values, despite what the ES spec says for normal objects?
  455. # [09:51] <Hixie> i don't know
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  457. # [09:51] <Hixie> i'm not really sure how to define the expression
  458. # [09:51] <othermaciej> I can't remember if we did it for consistency or because we thought some sites really check that way
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  460. # [09:51] <Hixie> is |document.all == foo| true if |foo === null|?
  461. # [09:52] <othermaciej> if (document.all != undefined) seems like a plausible check
  462. # [09:52] <othermaciej> that's the case in WebKit
  463. # [09:52] <Hixie> what about things like isNaN, and |'all' in document|, and so on?
  464. # [09:52] <othermaciej> it does it based on the value being null, the expression doesn't have to contain the null literall
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  466. # [09:53] <Hixie> so is it a property of the == operator or of the document.all object?
  467. # [09:53] <Hixie> or both?
  468. # [09:53] <Hixie> or something else?
  469. # [09:53] <Hixie> anyway like i said i'm sure i'll find a way to express it
  470. # [09:53] <othermaciej> alert('all' in document) reports true in Safari
  471. # [09:53] <Hixie> i just haven't look at it in detail yet
  472. # [09:53] <othermaciej> it's a property of the combination of the object and the == operator
  473. # [09:54] <Hixie> so if there is some other language mechanism to do comparisons, then it isn't affected by this magic?
  474. # [09:54] <Hixie> and if, say, JS added operator overloading, an overloaded '==' wouldn't see magic?
  475. # [09:54] <othermaciej> there is the === operator
  476. # [09:54] <othermaciej> which is not affected
  477. # [09:55] <Hixie> basically my point is just that the wording has to be very carefully thought out; i don't think it'll be especially hard or anything
  478. # [09:55] <othermaciej> I can't predict how it would interact with hypothetical future features
  479. # [09:55] <zcorpan_> if (document.all === undefined) seems like an equally plausible check as if (document.all == undefined), although i guess would be a lot less common
  480. # [09:55] <Hixie> ideally if we define it clearly (i.e. not by example), it will be well-defined
  481. # [09:57] <othermaciej> hmmm
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  483. # [09:57] <othermaciej> I can't find signs of document.all existing at all in Firefox
  484. # [09:57] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: try quirks mode
  485. # [09:57] <othermaciej> does the page need to have some special property for document.all to appear even in hidden form?
  486. # [09:57] <Hixie> has to be in quirks mode in firefox
  487. # [09:57] <othermaciej> oh hey, google.com has a docype now
  488. # [09:58] <Hixie> i'm trying :-)
  489. # [09:58] <othermaciej> there goes my favorite quirks mode test page!
  490. # [09:58] <Hixie> my influence is slow, but non-zero :-)
  491. # [09:58] <Hixie> jens meiert has been helping a lot too
  492. # [09:58] <Hixie> he even set up an internal instance of henri's validator
  493. # [09:58] <zcorpan_> doesn't validate though :(
  494. # [09:59] <Hixie> not yet :-)
  495. # [09:59] <Hixie> google.com is an impressively deceptive page in that while it looks simple, it is insanely complicated
  496. # [09:59] <othermaciej> Firefox makes document.all == to undefined and null
  497. # [09:59] <othermaciej> which is probably why we did that
  498. # [09:59] <Hixie> so many domains, so many languages, so many locales, so many things to expose differently in different countries...
  499. # [10:00] * zcorpan_ is waiting for Hixie to respond to emails from 2005 where people ask Hixie to make google.com front page validate
  500. # [10:00] <Hixie> i doubt i have those around still
  501. # [10:00] <Hixie> oh did i mention that the web elements guys fixed the problems ou raised?
  502. # [10:00] <Hixie> or were going to, anyway?
  503. # [10:01] <Hixie> dunno if they actually did
  504. # [10:01] <Hixie> let me know in a few months if you still find them broken
  505. # [10:01] <zcorpan_> cool
  506. # [10:01] <Hixie> they apparently were already intending to do it
  507. # [10:01] <Hixie> and had introduced a bunch of errors at the last minute trying to fix things up in other browsers
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  516. # [10:39] <Philip`> Woah, Chrome can run Canvex almost full-screen with almost acceptable performance :-o
  517. # [10:39] <Philip`> (Maybe other modern browsers can too, but I've not tried them)
  518. # [10:39] <Philip`> I need to work on it again to make it slower
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  524. # [10:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: Send email. I probably won't get around to doing anything about it till in Sweden anyway though. :)
  525. # [11:00] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: What's wrong about the output?
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  529. # [11:32] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  530. # [11:33] <Lachy> JohnResig, I wanted to discuss getting the selectors api test suite completed, as mentioned in my last mail to public-webapps
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  532. # [11:41] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: the h2s should be sub sections of the h1
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  534. # [11:45] * gsnedders remembers the header/hgroup change. that's the bug :P
  535. # [11:53] <Philip`> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/gallery/2009/jun/18/mps-expenses-houseofcommons?picture=349036998 - noooo! Comic Sans :-(
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  540. # [13:11] <roc> Philip`: download glyphs on demand? that's crazy talk
  541. # [13:11] <roc> hmm
  542. # [13:11] <roc> why is jd proud of the fact that Flash only checks for updates once a month?
  543. # [13:13] * annevk5 thinks jd is best ignored at this point
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  546. # [13:27] <Lachy> who's jd?
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  554. # [13:35] <roc> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/
  555. # [13:42] <JohnResig> Lachy: "IE lacks support for many of the CSS3 selectors tested in the test suite, but to be fair, these failure should be ignored.
  556. # [13:43] <JohnResig> that's bullshit :-(
  557. # [13:43] <JohnResig> do we really have to remove those tests?
  558. # [13:43] <JohnResig> ok, hang on, I should probably keep reading
  559. # [13:43] <gsnedders> JohnResig: Is CSS 3 selectors really need to be a prerequisite for the selectors test suite, though?
  560. # [13:44] <JohnResig> gsnedders: for a fully interoperable implementation, yep!
  561. # [13:44] <gsnedders> JohnResig: How so? What in selectors requires CSS 3 selectors to be tested?
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  564. # [13:46] <JohnResig> gsnedders: I'm saying that if we care about having interoperability - and making sure that all of the possible selectors work correctly - we need to test the full gamut of CSS selectors. A number of bugs were caught in the implementations of WebKit, Firefox and Opera since these tests existed - stripping them out will mean 1) There will be regressions 2) That IE will implement more bugs in their implementation and 3) That the implementations will be more li
  565. # [13:47] <gsnedders> JohnResig: Is that not an issue for the CSS 3 selectors test suite, though?
  566. # [13:47] <JohnResig> gsnedders: no - it's simply assumed that ass CSS selectors work identically as they do in the browser - it's very likely that they don't
  567. # [13:47] <annevk5> gsnedders, that test suite does not test them in the context of the Selectors API
  568. # [13:48] <JohnResig> there were a number of selectors that failed in the suite but "passed" in the official CSS selector test suite
  569. # [13:50] <Lachy> JohnResig, no, I didn't say we should remove them.
  570. # [13:50] <JohnResig> Lachy: heh, ok, I'm still reading
  571. # [13:50] <JohnResig> Lachy: just got a little flustered ;)
  572. # [13:51] <Lachy> Just that counting them when working out IE's level of conformance isn't really fair, because not supporting CSS3 doesn't affect their conformance with the requirements in Selectors API
  573. # [13:51] * gsnedders would nevertheless argue that unless the Selectors API requires support for CSS 3 Selectors (normatively) its test suite should just check against CSS 2.1, and optionally CSS 3 Selectors
  574. # [13:52] <JohnResig> Lachy: I see, yeah - and the fact that there's been 3 nearly-conformant implementations (as you pointed out) kind of removes the need for IE to be fully conformant
  575. # [13:52] <JohnResig> regardless
  576. # [13:53] <JohnResig> Lachy: I'm reading over the list on the bottom now
  577. # [13:53] <Philip`> roc: Why so crazy? It's just like downloading seekable media resources, except with lots more seeking, so you could add some kind of batching, and then it'd be trivial! :-)
  578. # [13:53] <JohnResig> Lachy: the test suite was actually, originally, xhtml - and included SVG inside of it
  579. # [13:53] <JohnResig> Lachy: I removed it because it broke in IE and we wanted the suite to run in IE :-/
  580. # [13:54] <Lachy> as far as selectors api conformance is concerned, for interoperability, we only need to ensure that the selectors that the implementations do support work correctly in the API. Requiring that they also work with Selectors that the implementation don't even claim support is silly
  581. # [13:55] <Lachy> ok. In that case, it's probably easiest to just make a new version that tests XHTML/SVG specific stuff
  582. # [13:56] <JohnResig> the first batch of hixie tests are pretty painless
  583. # [13:58] <JohnResig> woah, Hixie's 002-001 test is pretty nuts
  584. # [14:00] <Lachy> do you mean checking for "[object NodeList]"
  585. # [14:00] <Lachy> ?
  586. # [14:00] <JohnResig> Lachy: yeah - checking that the resulting NodeList is == to "[object NodeList]"
  587. # [14:00] <Lachy> I'm fine wil leaving the whole of Hixie's 002 tests out
  588. # [14:01] <JohnResig> Lachy: we already test for 002-003
  589. # [14:01] <JohnResig> and isn't 002-002 part of a different spec?
  590. # [14:01] <JohnResig> ok, anyway, I'll merge in 001
  591. # [14:01] <Lachy> well, the IDL says NoInterfaceObject
  592. # [14:02] <Lachy> so technically, 002-002 is testing a selectors api requirement, though it depends on a relatively unstable spec
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  677. # [22:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  678. # [22:28] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  691. # [23:12] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z8fda.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  692. # [23:15] * Quits: dpranke (n=dpranke@nat/google/x-9c8ef166bd86426f) ("Leaving.")
  693. # [23:15] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  694. # [23:28] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  695. # [23:39] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.114)
  696. # [23:45] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.114)
  697. # [23:49] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@nat/google/x-bc355613a09efe13)
  698. # [23:53] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-c32738e96e9d1ecd)
  699. # Session Close: Sat Jun 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)