/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <annevk2> so I did have a pass at XHR for those wanting to know
  4. # [00:02] <annevk2> currently base URL and origin are fixed when invoking open()
  5. # [00:02] <annevk2> I'm wondering if that's entirely correct or not
  6. # [00:03] <annevk2> it seems implementations differ a bit on the details and I've to look at all relevant testcases again (plus maybe make some more) to figure out if anything needs to change
  7. # [00:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.248)
  8. # [00:05] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.203.15.216)
  9. # [00:10] <othermaciej_> zcorpan_: that's not how I understood "interface object" but I could be confused
  10. # [00:10] <othermaciej_> zcorpan_: the object used for window.XMLHttpRequest is the same as the one used when invoing new XMLHttpRequest()
  11. # [00:10] <othermaciej_> zcorpan_: but different from the object *returned* by XMLHttpRequest
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> atwilson: ok, made it so that the url is resolved relative to the /first script/'s /script's base URL/ (see HTML5 for meanings of those terms), so all Worker constructors work identically
  13. # [00:13] <annevk2> othermaciej_, window.XMLHttpRequest is the interface object
  14. # [00:14] <annevk2> othermaciej_, though what you're saying there is very interesting and something I'd like to learn about
  15. # [00:18] <annevk2> specifically, the relation between the various objects
  16. # [00:18] <annevk2> but I should go to bed
  17. # [00:19] <annevk2> Hixie, in Web Workers you also need to define the relevant bits for XMLHttpRequest
  18. # [00:20] <annevk2> Hixie, I introduced the concepts "XMLHttpRequest base URL" and "XMLHttpRequest origin"
  19. # [00:20] <annevk2> Hixie, for when there's no such thing as "XMLHttpRequest Document"
  20. # [00:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.248) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  21. # [00:22] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  22. # [00:23] <atwilson> Hixie: OK, so it sounds like your intent is, indeed, to use the current script's global scope to determine the Document to insert in the set. So if I pass window.Worker to another frame, it doesn't carry with it any intrinsic relationship to that original window or its document. Correct?
  23. # [00:24] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: yeah, the constructor is the interface object
  24. # [00:25] <othermaciej> in that case the XHR spec is fairly clear and correct, I think
  25. # [00:26] <Hixie> atwilson: correct, all Worker constructors are created equal
  26. # [00:26] <Hixie> annevk2: can you drop me a mail about that?
  27. # [00:26] <atwilson> Hixie: thx.
  28. # [00:33] * jgraham thought he had got over his "write a long essay" phase of email composition. Sadly not
  29. # [00:34] <jgraham> Also we should totally have a HTMLWG metup in Linkoping. Me + zcorpan_ + gsedders + takkaria for starters :)
  30. # [00:36] <annevk2> I have this plan to come over to Sweden
  31. # [00:36] <annevk2> maybe end of July?
  32. # [00:36] * annevk2 is really going to bed now; has a flight around 10ish
  33. # [00:37] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5ED2D27A.cable.ziggo.nl)
  34. # [00:38] <jgraham> For the record of the logs I am away at the end of July
  35. # [00:42] <othermaciej> jgraham: yeah, that was kind of a wall of text
  36. # [00:49] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  37. # [00:51] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/tieleman/statuses/2292450418
  38. # [00:57] <Hixie> is there an up-to-date implementation of the <th scope> algorithm in a web tool i can poke at?
  39. # [00:58] <Hixie> is http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html up to date?
  40. # [00:58] <Hixie> (jgraham?)
  41. # [01:00] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it's up to jan 2009
  42. # [01:03] <Hixie> k
  43. # [01:05] <zcorpan_> "Did you know that HTML5 editor Ian Hickson stated that HTML5 won’t fully be implemented in all browsers until 2022?" - http://www.davidtucker.net/2009/06/19/an-honest-open-discussion-on-web-standards-and-html-5/
  44. # [01:05] <zcorpan_> i can't remember Hixie having stated that
  45. # [01:05] <Hixie> i already commented
  46. # [01:11] <zcorpan_> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mindfly.com%2F
  47. # [01:12] <othermaciej> hmm
  48. # [01:12] <othermaciej> all of his "Did you know..." questions seem false
  49. # [01:12] <othermaciej> in their premise
  50. # [01:12] <othermaciej> (except maybe Google Wave?)
  51. # [01:13] <zcorpan_> othermaciej: see Hixie's comment
  52. # [01:13] <Hixie> even his google wave one is wrong; see my comment
  53. # [01:14] <Hixie> (and btw the use of gears in wave will become a non-issue as soon as arun's draft is ready and browsers have drag-and-drop File objects)
  54. # [01:14] <Midler> isnt that the year w3c is having it to be a standard?
  55. # [01:14] <Midler> 2022?
  56. # [01:14] <Hixie> see my comment on the blog entry :-)
  57. # [01:15] <ojan> and FWIW, eric's patch to add drag-and-drop files to webkit came out of the Wave team's request so they would not have to rely on Gears
  58. # [01:18] <Philip`> jgraham: You should include some ASCII-art diagrams to break up the flow of your long emails
  59. # [01:19] * Hixie looks through ben millard's interesting tables collection to get ideas for examples for the spec
  60. # [01:20] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  61. # [01:21] <Hixie> i need a table that has a scope=rowgroup header cell in a non-left-most cell
  62. # [01:22] * Quits: drry (n=drry@dd25.opt2.point.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  63. # [01:23] <othermaciej> I feel like this guy doesn't understand how HTML works
  64. # [01:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  65. # [01:28] <Midler> iam still reading it
  66. # [01:29] <Midler> "The truth is that plugins can ‘upgrade the web‘ in under a year."
  67. # [01:29] <Midler> That doesnt sounds that fantastic
  68. # [01:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: use google's index to find it
  69. # [01:29] <Midler> Like we will be using flash forever
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  71. # [01:31] <Hixie> zcorpan_: hah
  72. # [01:31] <Midler> I must ask how much the possibility for huge changes in the html5 document is?
  73. # [01:32] <Hixie> Midler: if someone finds a huge problem, pretty high :-)
  74. # [01:32] <Midler> Ok
  75. # [01:32] <Midler> I read comments concerning that
  76. # [01:32] <Midler> On Swedish forums
  77. # [01:32] <zcorpan_> Midler: pointer?
  78. # [01:32] <Midler> Its like: Ok, mozilla firefox add html 5 support
  79. # [01:32] <Philip`> Hixie: I found a huge problem in the spec
  80. # [01:33] <Philip`> Hixie: It doesn't rhyme at all
  81. # [01:33] <Midler> but you would never know if that support will be left 5 years from now
  82. # [01:33] <Hixie> Philip`: good lord, you're right. i'll make it rhyme right away.
  83. # [01:35] <zcorpan_> Midler: features that are shipped in multiple browsers and used on a wide scale on the web are very unlikely to change in incompatible ways
  84. # [01:35] <Midler> "very unlikely" is the concern...you can never know
  85. # [01:37] <Hixie> who knows
  86. # [01:37] <Hixie> tomorrow maybe the entire internet infrastructure will collapse
  87. # [01:37] <Hixie> and there will be no web
  88. # [01:37] <Hixie> or maybe adobe will go bankrupt, and there will be no flash
  89. # [01:37] <Hixie> you can never know :-)
  90. # [01:37] <Philip`> I think Google should buy Adobe
  91. # [01:38] <beowulf> which group does Shelley Powers refer to when she describes them as 'not diverse'?
  92. # [01:38] <zcorpan_> Midler: do you have a link to said forums?
  93. # [01:39] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i guess there would still be flash if adobe went bankrupt
  94. # [01:39] <Midler> zcorpan_: http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.236210/se-upp-flash--html-5-vill-vara-med-och-leka?articleRenderMode=listpostings#a19.651633
  95. # [01:40] <Midler> Its not forum, bit comments
  96. # [01:40] <othermaciej> did Shelley re-un-quit?
  97. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Yes
  98. # [01:43] <Midler> zcorpan_: Swedish?
  99. # [01:46] <Midler> There is comment that says this: "the problem with W3C is that the whole standard in theory could be rewritten entirely, which would make that they do not have as good implementation of the longer." <-- slightly modified
  100. # [01:46] <Midler> a google translate*
  101. # [01:50] <Dashiva> Not quite
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  103. # [01:51] <Dashiva> "Of course, it only applies to the candidate [spec of] CSS 2.1; the problem with w3c being so senselessly slow is that the entire standard could in theory be rewritten, which would make it so they don't have as good an implementation any more"
  104. # [01:58] <Midler> oh i see. Wrong of me
  105. # [01:59] <Midler> but reading the discussion show a concern about the time it takes for it to be a standard
  106. # [02:00] <Midler> "The web is evolving faster than w3c makes something a standard"
  107. # [02:02] <othermaciej> Midler: in theory it could be, but in practice it won't
  108. # [02:02] <Midler> =)
  109. # [02:02] <Midler> Even i understand that
  110. # [02:02] <othermaciej> Midler: once a spec is at the Candidate Recommendation phase, any significant changes require a lot of bureaucracy
  111. # [02:03] <othermaciej> the basic idea is not to lock it down until we have two interoperable implementations so we're sure it works
  112. # [02:03] <othermaciej> it's similar to the IET
  113. # [02:03] <othermaciej> IETF I mean
  114. # [02:03] <othermaciej> where in theory, a "Draft Standard" could be changed completely before becoming an "Internet Standard", but in practice it won't be
  115. # [02:04] <jcranmer> beowulf: ancient Saxony?
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  118. # [02:31] <Hixie> jgraham: i crashed your table inspector :-(
  119. # [02:32] * Parts: Midler (n=midler@95.209.22.176.bredband.tre.se) ("Leaving.")
  120. # [02:34] <Hixie> jgraham: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/391
  121. # [02:35] <Hixie> jgraham: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?algorithm=html5c&input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fjunkyard.damowmow.com%2F391&source=%3Ctable%3E%3Cthead%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Cth%3E%3Cth%3E%3Ctbody%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Cth+scope%3Drowgroup%3E
  122. # [02:35] <Hixie> ->crash
  123. # [02:35] <Hixie> it works if i add the two missing cells that hsivonen's validator complains about
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  126. # [02:45] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe you should have an example in the spec where a script moves the element that the parser is inserting to
  127. # [02:45] <Hixie> send mail :-)
  128. # [02:46] <Hixie> i'm busy trying to make exampels for tables
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  133. # [03:02] <zcorpan_> hmm, i tried to annotate "Parsing HTML documents" but it added a box to #comments instead :-/
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  135. # [03:04] <Hixie> yeah the annotation thingy is broken
  136. # [03:04] <Hixie> not sure what the bug is
  137. # [03:04] <Hixie> haven't looked
  138. # [03:04] <Hixie> i think it has to do with the "impl" annotations
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  151. # [03:36] <heycam> zcorpan_, fixed the [NoInterfaceObject] / [Constructor] thing, thanks
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  153. # [03:41] <zcorpan_> heycam: nice
  154. # [03:43] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the parts of html5 that were split out to w3c docs don't have the same permissive license as html5
  155. # [03:44] <zcorpan_> Hixie: so it's harder to fork web storage
  156. # [03:47] * tantek prefers open standards specs that use a public domain declaration in order to be truly open.
  157. # [03:51] <zcorpan_> Hixie: you should have a third color for legs and tails
  158. # [03:52] <zcorpan_> Hixie: at first i thought the green arrows were all from Cats and English speakers
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  165. # [04:31] <othermaciej> tantek: in practice, I don't think a public domain declaration is better than, say, a BSD-style copyright license or rough equivalent
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  181. # [05:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: the source is still in the whatwg svn under that license :-)
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  246. # [08:41] <tantek> othermaciej re: PD vs BSD etc. - in general I would agree, however, my experience with book publishers specifically for example is that they know/understand/like content that is cleared as PD but few have heard of BSD, and unknown = fear/uncertainty/doubt.
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  251. # [08:58] <Mrmil> What is more correct? Open <code>bloodyscript.rb</code>, open <var>bloodyscript.rb</var> or open <bloodysomethingelse?>bloodyscript.rb</bloodysomethingelse?>
  252. # [09:03] <jgraham> So. Much. Mail.
  253. # [09:06] <othermaciej> Mrmil: I think <samp> would be most correct
  254. # [09:07] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  255. # [09:07] <Mrmil> othermaciej: Ook, thanks
  256. # [09:07] <othermaciej> no, I guess not, maybe <kbd>
  257. # [09:07] <othermaciej> HTML has too many elements to set things in monospace
  258. # [09:07] <Mrmil> right
  259. # [09:08] <Mrmil> <kbd>/var/www/test/script.rb</kbd>?
  260. # [09:08] <Mrmil> it's not too right though, it's more a path then input... but then you can't follow path without an input
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  262. # [09:10] <jgraham> Mrmil: It is irelevent. No UA will ever care. People are really unlikely to screen scrape for it and if you care about people trying to you could always use <code class=path> or something
  263. # [09:10] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) ("Leaving")
  264. # [09:10] <Mrmil> jgraham: ok, I generally use <code> anyways. I just wanted to satisfy my curiosity. :)
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  267. # [09:21] <sayrer> Mrmil: if you want something to be monospace, you can use <font>
  268. # [09:23] <Mrmil> sayrer: I use css for that, I was curious if there is a way to correctly annotate files and paths, looks like there is not just one solution
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  270. # [09:24] <sayrer> I see, I'm sure the annotation is important ;)
  271. # [09:26] <Mrmil> sayrer: :P
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  276. # [09:38] <hsivonen> hmm. I've lost the URL of Hixie's <meta charset> tests again
  277. # [09:39] <hsivonen> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/
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  288. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the hide/highlight feature doesn't work at all in webkit-based browsers, afaict
  289. # [10:26] <Hixie> wfm
  290. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> hmm
  291. # [10:26] <Hixie> what happens for you?
  292. # [10:26] <Hixie> i only tested it in webkit trunk
  293. # [10:26] <Hixie> but it doesn't do anything really fancy
  294. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I'm testing in webkit nightly
  295. # [10:28] <Hixie> what does it do?
  296. # [10:28] <Hixie> what are you doing?
  297. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> the buttons work as expected, but the URLs don't seem to for me
  298. # [10:28] <Hixie> paste one here?
  299. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/?style=author
  300. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> if I go to that URL, it still shows me the impl stuff
  301. # [10:29] <Hixie> hm, yeah
  302. # [10:29] <Hixie> the right radio button is checked though right?
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  304. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
  305. # [10:31] <Hixie> weird
  306. # [10:31] <Hixie> the styles are being disabled properly
  307. # [10:31] * gsnedders wonders how long it'll take to buy tickets at King's Cross
  308. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> maybe webkit bug
  309. # [10:32] <Hixie> must be
  310. # [10:32] <Hixie> don't see what else it could be
  311. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: want me to ask or on #webkit, or do you?
  312. # [10:34] <Hixie> go ahead
  313. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> k
  314. # [10:35] <Hixie> if the right radio is being checked, i don't see how it could fail
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  316. # [10:39] <zcorpan_> hixie: multipage/styler.js is a 404
  317. # [10:39] <Hixie> oops
  318. # [10:40] <Hixie> ok, updater.js and styler.js will be symlinked properly next time i regen
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  320. # [10:44] <Hixie> heycam: did you come up with an attribute name for merging interfaces?
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  324. # [10:57] <heycam> Hixie, haven't got to that one yet
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  326. # [10:58] <Hixie> heycam: let's make one up for now, so i don't have to check in about six bazillion [XXX]s
  327. # [10:58] <Hixie> (i'm merging in the old DOM2 HTML deprecated stuff)
  328. # [10:59] <heycam> sure, just make something up and i'll let you know when i get to it
  329. # [10:59] <Hixie> ok
  330. # [11:01] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  331. # [11:01] <Hixie> i'll use [Supplemental] for now
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  333. # [11:04] <heycam> righto
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  338. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: ping
  339. # [11:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: You want to meet up at 17:00 or so today?
  340. # [11:44] * gsnedders probably will be gone before you respond, but can probably lurk around at the normal place at that time anyway :P
  341. # [11:44] <gsnedders> (weee… multi-second lag!)
  342. # [11:45] <hsivonen> "In reality, version 3 of the iPhone OS is the only solid platform that has full HTML5 support (as well as some other fixed development platforms)."
  343. # [11:45] <hsivonen> http://www.davidtucker.net/2009/06/19/an-honest-open-discussion-on-web-standards-and-html-5/
  344. # [11:46] <Hixie> i'm sure apple will be really glad to hear that they don't have to implement any more stuff
  345. # [11:46] <Hixie> still no acknowledgement of my comment on that post
  346. # [11:47] * gsnedders really does have to go now, so maybe see you
  347. # [11:47] <Hixie> later
  348. # [11:47] <gsnedders> (Actually, I think you have my number, so phone me)
  349. # [11:48] * gsnedders heads off to Cambridge
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  358. # [12:06] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm, why is size DOMString on font bug long on basefont?
  359. # [12:06] <Hixie> dunno, but that's what DOM2 HTML says
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  363. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> seems in ie both are long, in opera both are DOMString, while firefox and webkit follow dom2html
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  368. # [12:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: hmm. Interesting bug about the errors for xmlns:dc being reported for href
  369. # [12:36] <hsivonen> btw, that's pretty certainly a useless use of RDFa
  370. # [12:36] <hsivonen> pure metacrap
  371. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it's useful because it found a bug in your validator :)
  372. # [12:41] <hsivonen> :-)
  373. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the note about dom feature strings seems to be incorrect now
  374. # [12:49] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe you should just use "HTML", "2.0"
  375. # [12:50] <Hixie> send
  376. # [12:50] <Hixie> mail
  377. # [12:50] <Hixie> :-P
  378. # [12:50] <zcorpan_> working on it
  379. # [12:50] <Hixie> :-)
  380. # [12:52] <hsivonen> whoa. lots of email on public-html.
  381. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: probably partially my fault :(
  382. # [12:52] * hsivonen has been happily looking away from public-html (towards the Mozilla land instead) today
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  390. # [13:23] <Lachy> yeah, there's way too much e-mail on public-html
  391. # [13:24] <Lachy> I've got through about a third of this week's discussion, still have just over 100 to go
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  397. # [13:40] <Dashiva> Last week was almost empty, though. Strange how it fluctuates.
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  399. # [13:57] <Lachy> http://www.contemporis.com/2009/06/translation-from-adobe-pr-speak-to-english/
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  401. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> Lachy: that's copied from somewhere else
  402. # [13:59] <zcorpan_> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=662620
  403. # [14:00] <Hixie> oops, marked my massive DOM2 HTML checkin as editorial!
  404. # [14:00] <Hixie> oh well
  405. # [14:01] <Hixie> i think that is it as far as the obsolete section goes, so if anyone knows of anything that should be in there, please file a bug or send mail
  406. # [14:01] <Lachy> zcorpan_, oh well. Wherever it originally came from, it's still somewhat funny.
  407. # [14:02] <Lachy> although, I'm curious about the claim "iPhone helped to radically increase the number of phones with Flash support" since the iPhone doesn't support Flash
  408. # [14:02] <Hixie> ok bed time
  409. # [14:02] <Hixie> nn
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  420. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_, hsivonen - you guys around?
  421. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yes
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  433. # [14:21] <jgraham> The local rate of public html emails is about 1 per 10 minutes. So making the reasonable assumption of a constant rate we should have about 600,000 emails between now and last call
  434. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: sorry, got distracted
  435. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=586 from hsivonen
  436. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: is that not the same as http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=584 ?
  437. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: seems so
  438. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> OK
  439. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> I thought at first that Henri was filing a new bug caused by my checkin
  440. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: as far as I can tell, my checkin to the treebuilder code fixes that problem, without any regression
  441. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: cool
  442. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> and checked in a change for the encoding-must-be-first-child thing yesterday too, so that should be fixed too, next time hsivonen deploys
  443. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: it was just those two problems you found yesterday, right?
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  445. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yeah
  446. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> great
  447. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: in v.nu anyway
  448. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: where else would it need to be fixed?
  449. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> i found and reported problems in the blog post itself, in wordpress, in mozilla, and in mozilla documentation
  450. # [14:31] <zcorpan_> actually, not mozilla
  451. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> sadly i didn't find problems in the spec
  452. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I see
  453. # [14:45] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  454. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> have we ever had any success in getting wordpress to make fixes?
  455. # [14:46] <zcorpan_> i noticed wordpress was being patched for <video> support already
  456. # [14:47] <zcorpan_> or at least to let it through their filter of whitelisted elements and attributes
  457. # [14:49] <zcorpan_> http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10151
  458. # [14:50] <zcorpan_> http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/9437 - case-insensitive svg in html ++
  459. # [14:50] * Joins: kenhty (n=kenhty@190.224-50-210.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au)
  460. # [14:50] <Dashiva> <video src="spam-ad.ogg" autoplay />
  461. # [14:50] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Hopefully not the whitelist for comments?
  462. # [14:51] <Philip`> Dashiva: That would be bad, because it would give browsers a disincentive to implement Ogg support
  463. # [14:51] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@95.209.94.42.bredband.tre.se)
  464. # [14:51] <zcorpan_> Philip`: there were concerns about that in the bug
  465. # [14:51] <Dashiva> Sorry, spam-ad.mp4 of course
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  482. # [15:59] <Philip`> Licensing is hard :-(
  483. # [16:01] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  484. # [16:01] <Philip`> I have some project that includes C++ source files, which will be GPL; and some art data (bitmap textures etc) which will be CC-by-sa; but then there's stuff like XML files that tie together the art data, so they're sort of art data but since they're XML they're sort of like code too, and it gets a bit confusing
  485. # [16:02] <jgraham> Philip`: Lets go shopping
  486. # [16:02] <jgraham> Or, if you prefer I will ask you a more interesting question
  487. # [16:02] <jgraham> Actually I will anywway
  488. # [16:03] <jgraham> (you can always stick your fingers in your eyes and hum)
  489. # [16:03] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@p4076-ipbf6604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  490. # [16:03] <Philip`> (That might hurt my eyes)
  491. # [16:03] <jgraham> Is there a good/standard way of empirically determining the big-O of a function?
  492. # [16:04] * Quits: kenhty (n=kenhty@190.224-50-210.dynamic.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au)
  493. # [16:04] <Philip`> What do you count as "empirical"?
  494. # [16:04] <jgraham> At least under some reasonable set of assumptions e.g. the function has to be drawn from a finite set
  495. # [16:04] <jgraham> s/function/big O function/
  496. # [16:05] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4101 - spam or not?
  497. # [16:05] <jgraham> Philip`: Say I have an implementation of a "sort" function and I want to know if it is quadratic or subquadratic purely by black box measurement
  498. # [16:06] <jgraham> In a way that is reasonably robust against the environment
  499. # [16:06] <Lachy> JohnResig, I just sent a revised copy of the selectors api exit criteria to public-webapps, which also describes what should be done with the testsuite. Let me know what you think, and if and when you'll be able to make those changes
  500. # [16:07] <jgraham> zcorpan_: spam
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  502. # [16:07] <Philip`> jgraham: It's not possible to determine a theoretically correct answer - the function could have cost n^1.5 + n^2/1000000000, and it would be O(n^2) but all your black box measurements would make you think it was O(n^1.5)
  503. # [16:08] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-88297d11595e976e) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  504. # [16:08] <Philip`> (The definition of big-O notation is that it's all about what happens in the limit, and you can't perform measurements in the limit)
  505. # [16:09] <jgraham> Philip`: Indeed. So lets say that we don't care so much about the true asymptotic behaviour but the behaviour for some reasonable range of input values
  506. # [16:09] <jgraham> Which isn't the theoretically pure case but is more practically interesting
  507. # [16:10] <Philip`> Then you can just run it for a range of n values, and pass it into some statistical analysis package (e.g. Excel's graph plotter) and get it to tell you the polynomial equation of the curve
  508. # [16:10] * Parts: BARTdG (n=BARTdG@5ED42544.cable.ziggo.nl)
  509. # [16:10] <jgraham> Philip`: Right but does that seem likely to be robust in the face of environmental factors
  510. # [16:11] <jgraham> like, say, GC pauses or whatever
  511. # [16:11] <jgraham> and there are practical concerns about the range of input values that should be chosen
  512. # [16:11] <Philip`> (There's also the issue that big-O is technically about worst case behaviour, and e.g. quicksort has terrible worst-case behaviour but you'll never notice that except on carefully-chosen inputs)
  513. # [16:12] <jgraham> (Yeah the worst-case behaviour thing is a reasonable concern but we'll ignore that for now)
  514. # [16:12] <Philip`> jgraham: It seems likely to be sufficiently robust that the difference between n log n and n^2 would be blatantly obvious
  515. # [16:13] <jgraham> Philip`: OK but you are not aware of any useful prior art on doing this kind of meaurement?
  516. # [16:13] <Philip`> I don't see why it's a complicated enough issue that one would need prior art, rather than just measuring some values and looking to see what the curve is like :-)
  517. # [16:14] <Philip`> or looking at the implementation and working out what it's doing
  518. # [16:14] <jgraham> Philip`: I have been told that this is harder in practice than it sounds in theory :)
  519. # [16:15] <Philip`> (In the latter case, see e.g. Knuth for more information than you ever wanted to know about sorting algorithms)
  520. # [16:15] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3155-ipbf1001marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  521. # [16:15] <Philip`> jgraham: I guess it depends on how precise an answer you want
  522. # [16:15] <Philip`> e.g. n log n vs n^2 is easy to detect, but n^1.99 vs n^2 would be much harder
  523. # [16:17] <Philip`> I suppose the problem is I don't understand what problem you're trying to solve
  524. # [16:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Fair enough :)
  525. # [16:20] * jgraham isn't quite sure either
  526. # [16:20] <Philip`> Easy solution: Just use heap sort
  527. # [16:20] <Philip`> Uh, merge sort
  528. # [16:21] <Philip`> I think that's the one I mean
  529. # [16:22] * Quits: doublec__ (n=doublec@118-93-166-74.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Client Quit)
  530. # [16:23] <zcorpan_> smylers++ on UAs generating a description of the table structure
  531. # [16:24] <jgraham> Philip`: It isn't really a sort-specific question
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  533. # [16:25] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh
  534. # [16:32] <Philip`> jgraham: Anyway, I think in conclusion I don't have any useful non-obvious knowledge that would help you do whatever it is you're trying to do
  535. # [16:35] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-e4b632f0a61d3f7c)
  536. # [16:35] <JohnResig> Lachy: k - I'll probably be able to look at it/make the changes early July
  537. # [16:36] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@p4076-ipbf6604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  538. # [16:43] <Lachy> ok
  539. # [16:45] <zcorpan_> http://blog.benward.me/post/128294973
  540. # [16:49] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  541. # [16:49] <jgraham> I think it's sweet of Adobe to talk about HTML5 at every possible oppertunity.
  542. # [16:49] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-104-163-3.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  543. # [16:49] <jgraham> It's hard to imagine what more they could do to promote it
  544. # [16:52] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip174.unival.com)
  545. # [16:52] <Philip`> They could make Flash buggy and crash-prone, and not port it to new platforms and devices
  546. # [16:53] <jgraham> Philip`: Like it said it's hard to imagine what more they could do
  547. # [16:53] <jgraham> s/it/I/
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  554. # [17:07] <zcorpan_> jgraham: do you think it would be possible to hack together a demo implementation of generating a description of a table's structure?
  555. # [17:08] <jgraham> zcorpan_: All things are possible
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  557. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> jgraham: i mean, do you want to do it?
  558. # [17:08] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I can have a go
  559. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> cool
  560. # [17:10] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  561. # [17:10] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Another interesting project would be to see how well the Mozilla layout table detector works
  562. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> yeah
  563. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> i wonder how mozilla's algorithm came into being
  564. # [17:10] <Lachy> are you show that it's possible for UAs to determine for itself what would otherwise be provided by a summary attribute (if one is supplied and used properly)?
  565. # [17:11] <jgraham> If it works reasonably well hsivonen could add it to the validator
  566. # [17:11] <jgraham> Lachy: No. But it seems worth finding out
  567. # [17:11] <zcorpan_> is it just a bunch of guesses? or is it based on research?
  568. # [17:11] * jgraham guesses it is a bunch of guesses
  569. # [17:11] <Lachy> jgraham, certainly, if we could show that summary was redundant, then it would end the debate
  570. # [17:12] <Philip`> Lachy: I assume that was a joke
  571. # [17:12] <jgraham> Lachy: Hah ha
  572. # [17:13] <Lachy> no, it wasn't a joke. I'm serious. If everything an author is supposed to provide with a summary attribute can be determined automatically from the table structure, then it is redundant
  573. # [17:13] <zcorpan_> jgraham: look at ben's collection of tables for inspiration
  574. # [17:14] <jgraham> Lachy: I doubt it will be possible to determine "everything an author is supposed to provide"
  575. # [17:14] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.77.225.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  576. # [17:14] <jgraham> Even if it is I think people will still claim @summary is needed
  577. # [17:15] <jgraham> (for legacy UAs or for super-complex corner cases or something)
  578. # [17:15] <Philip`> Is summary="Calendar" considered a useful use of summary? That's something that's very hard to determine algorithmically, and hard for someone using a non-graphical browser to determine, but trivial for someone using a graphical browser
  579. # [17:16] <jgraham> Philip`: That's not what @summary is for, apparently
  580. # [17:16] <Lachy> Philip`, I don't think so
  581. # [17:16] <jgraham> (my current understanding is that it is _only_ supposed to be used for describing the structure of the table)
  582. # [17:16] <Philip`> jgraham: It doesn't really matter what it's apparently for, it matters whether it's beneficial to users
  583. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> would be interesting to see if it's possible to determine whether a given table is a calendar or not
  584. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> calendars usually have a specific format
  585. # [17:17] <Lachy> "This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure ..." - For most common simple cases, it's possible to determine the structure simply by looking at the headings. The purpose should be indicated by the caption or surrounding prose.
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  588. # [17:23] <beowulf> if the ua can't provide a summary, allow the author to use @summary or whatever, no?
  589. # [17:24] <Lachy> beowulf, even if the UA can't, there are better proposals than the @summary
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  597. # [17:50] <remysharp> hi - I've been playing with the manifest for offline apps in Safari, and checking the docs because Safari won't reload a server side change - is this being handled correctly?
  598. # [17:50] <remysharp> i.e. the page is loaded and told to cache xyz assets
  599. # [17:50] <remysharp> I make a change to the page, like the h1 text
  600. # [17:50] <remysharp> and Safari doesn't reflect the change
  601. # [17:50] <remysharp> I can only get it to load the new page if I cache bust the URL manually.
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  603. # [17:51] <ap> remysharp: you need to change the manifest for resources to be refreshed
  604. # [17:51] <remysharp> but it was the actual page that was being loaded, i.e. it's not specified in the manifest
  605. # [17:52] <ap> remysharp: it goes to the manifest implicitly (as a master resource)
  606. # [17:52] <remysharp> aye, that's what I figured -
  607. # [17:52] <remysharp> are you saying if I 'touch' the manifest, it should update it?
  608. # [17:53] <remysharp> or - something else, how should I be able to tell the browser the master resource has been updated?
  609. # [17:53] <ap> remysharp: its content should change, not just modification date
  610. # [17:53] <ap> remysharp: its == manifest
  611. # [17:53] <remysharp> but I've got nothing to add though - it's just a change to the html
  612. # [17:53] <ap> remysharp: you can add a version in a comment
  613. # [17:53] <remysharp> ah - right.
  614. # [17:53] <remysharp> so comments can trigger an update then?
  615. # [17:54] <ap> remysharp: any change to the manifest content will
  616. # [17:54] <remysharp> hm - just tried it - it didn't.
  617. # [17:54] <remysharp> but I guess that's an implementation bug, right?
  618. # [17:54] <ap> remysharp: why do you think so?
  619. # [17:55] <remysharp> because I changed the manifest, as you suggested
  620. # [17:55] <remysharp> and the rendered html didn't update in safari
  621. # [17:55] <ap> remysharp: so far, so good
  622. # [17:55] <ap> remysharp: changing the manifest and reloading should start an update process
  623. # [17:55] <remysharp> yeah, but it didn't.
  624. # [17:55] <remysharp> at all.
  625. # [17:56] <ap> remysharp: once it's done, and the cache is updated, your page gest an event
  626. # [17:56] <remysharp> it's not though
  627. # [17:56] <ap> remysharp: is is_not_ magically reloaded again
  628. # [17:56] <remysharp> I'm listening for all the events
  629. # [17:56] <remysharp> and I've also triggered manual update()
  630. # [17:56] <ap> remysharp: what event listeners do you have installed?
  631. # [17:56] <remysharp> and swap
  632. # [17:56] <remysharp> one sec
  633. # [17:56] <remysharp> checking,error,noupdate,downloading,progress,updateready,cached,obsolete
  634. # [17:56] <remysharp> that lot!
  635. # [17:56] <ap> remysharp: which ones did fire?
  636. # [17:57] <remysharp> currently - after manually refreshing - it's on 'downloading'
  637. # [17:57] <remysharp> but it's stuck on downloading, and the master resource just isn't updating so far.
  638. # [17:58] <ap> remysharp: sounds strange. it is possible that there's a bug, but we do have tests verifying the behavior
  639. # [17:58] <remysharp> hmm - and now Safari crashed!
  640. # [17:58] <remysharp> are these the ones that drive the test data on the whatwg specs?
  641. # [17:58] <ap> remysharp: all right, that's a bug :)
  642. # [17:58] <remysharp> because I've been writing a bunch of simple tests myself, and a few of them definitely don't marry up.
  643. # [17:59] <zcorpan_> hsivonen, MikeSmith: maybe all obsolete features in html should be in the html5 schema (including framesets), with assertions saying that it's obsolete and what to use instead
  644. # [17:59] <remysharp> for instance, drag and drop, from what I can see in testing - is only supported in Firefox - and not Webkit
  645. # [17:59] <ap> remysharp: WebKit tests are just for WebKit regression testing (we're getting offtopic here, could move to #webkit)
  646. # [17:59] <remysharp> ap: aye, sorry.
  647. # [18:00] <remysharp> ap: so, to trigger an update to the application cache, from the server, I should be updating the manifest - that's the approach
  648. # [18:00] <ap> right
  649. # [18:00] <remysharp> ap: is that in the spec - I didn't come across it when I was trying to see if I had to manually trigger it somehow.
  650. # [18:00] <remysharp> (I mean, I assume it is, and I missed it)
  651. # [18:02] <ap> remysharp: see step 7 in 6.9.4
  652. # [18:02] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-2087804b5fb43ac0)
  653. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I have a patch to add frameset written up already
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  655. # [18:02] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: sweet
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  657. # [18:03] <ap> remysharp: update process is invoked in many circumstances (e.g. each time a new page opens), and usually quickly finishes due to the manifest being unchanged
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  660. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> frameset and basefont are the only obsolete things that aren't already in teh v.nu schemas
  661. # [18:03] <ap> remysharp: please file bugs at bugs.webkit.org about the crash, and about other issues you may find
  662. # [18:03] <remysharp> ap: yeah, the new page opens - that's what I was figuring on - but it doesn't seem to happen in webkit - re: bugs, will do - if I can consistently create them.
  663. # [18:04] <remysharp> ap: re: 6.9.4 is that on www, or dev.w3 ? I'm on www and offline is in 5.x
  664. # [18:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: is marquee in?
  665. # [18:04] <ap> remysharp: I was looking at whatwg.org
  666. # [18:04] <remysharp> ap: ah!
  667. # [18:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: spacer?
  668. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: nope. I meant elements that were valid in HTML4 but that are not valid in the HTML5 draft
  669. # [18:05] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: ok. i'm looking at the obsolete section in html5
  670. # [18:14] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: is it possible to generate messages that say what to use instead for obsolete attributes?
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  673. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, it's possible to do with the assertions-checking code
  674. # [18:20] <remysharp> ap: cheers for the help.
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  676. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: anything is possible with that. we can make the error messages say whatever we want
  677. # [18:21] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i think it would be useful to rip off what Hixie wrote in the obsolete section
  678. # [18:22] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: hmm, actually
  679. # [18:22] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: some messages already have the content model stuff
  680. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, for some cases
  681. # [18:23] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: maybe it would make sense to include a separate field in a similar manner for advice on what to use instead
  682. # [18:23] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: instead of adding everything to the schema and assertions
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  685. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> we can't add arbitrary messages to the grammar-based schema checking anyway. we are stuck with what Jing reports there, for the most part
  686. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> the content-model stuff that hsivonen has it emitting now is something that he hooked in with custom code
  687. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> it just copies that from a copy of the spec, verbatim
  688. # [18:26] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: can't the advice be implemented the same as the content model stuff?
  689. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> it could be, but it would be more trouble than just adding it to the assertions checking
  690. # [18:27] <zcorpan_> ok
  691. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> the assertions checking is now implemented as custom Java code anyway
  692. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> so we can do anything we want with that
  693. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> there is still the assertions.sch file, but v.nu doesn't actually use that
  694. # [18:28] <zcorpan_> aha
  695. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> anyway, v.nu has an mechanism already for emitting Info-class messages (as opposed to Error or Warning)
  696. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> so that part's already in there
  697. # [18:29] <zcorpan_> i was having in mind including the advice in the same error message
  698. # [18:29] <zcorpan_> like content model stuff is tied to a an error message
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  700. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> I think it would need to be Info so that users can suppress it if they want
  701. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> IMHO, that's how the content-model stuff should be too
  702. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> they can still be tied together
  703. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> could just think of them as different fields of the same message
  704. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> anyway, I chatted with hsivonen a while back of using the assertions-checking backend for more cases, particularly cases where the error messages from Jing aren't very useful
  705. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> which is actually a lot of cases
  706. # [18:32] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: some parse errors already have advice on what to do instead
  707. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, the error messages for parse errors is another separate thing
  708. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> as far as the schema-checking part goes, I think one lesson from this is that you can't ever expect to get useful messages for all cases from a grammar-based generic checker like Jing or any other RelaxNG or XSD checker
  709. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> if you want good error messages for more cases, it has to be supplemented with other kinds of checking
  710. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> schematron assertion-based checking is actually a really good way
  711. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> but the performance sucks
  712. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> and it is based on XPath, and not everybody likes XPath, and writing XPath expressions for some cases is a PITA
  713. # [18:39] * jgraham onders how the fraction of custom java code in validator.nu has changed as a function of time
  714. # [18:39] <jgraham> +w
  715. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> so the conclusion is to use relax ng for anything that doesn't need useful messages and custom code for the rest?
  716. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the custom code for assertion checking has been going down recently because Hixie has relaxed or removed some constraints
  717. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> like the one about encoding declaration needing to be first child of head
  718. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> or around datagrid content model
  719. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> the datagrid content-model checking was a big chunk of the assertions code
  720. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: no, not exactly -- not IMHO at least
  721. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> though that is basically what v.nu is doing now
  722. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> well, not exactly
  723. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> lemme rephrase that
  724. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> v.nu now is mostly using relax ng for anything that can be expressed practically in relax ng, and then using the assertions checking for stuff that can't, as then other custom code for stuff that can't be done with assertions checking (e.g., overlapping table cells)
  725. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> so relax ng does emit useful messages for a lot of cases
  726. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> but there are some others where it doesn't -- like cases that Rick Jelliffe mentioned
  727. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> e.g., where the constraint is around allowed sequences of elements
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  733. # [18:55] * webben_ notes that one major advantage of DTD-based validation is developers can hack the DTD to change the constraints. I don't think that offsets the way DTDs limit what you can check, but it is a major advantage nevertheless.
  734. # [18:56] <webben_> e.g. at Yahoo!, we're on route to using a custom DTD internally for validating the sub- and super-sets of HTML4 we want to be using.
  735. # [18:56] <brale> hi all. I need some help, an idea. I need to extract only (printable) text from some page. Is there an easy way to do this using html5lib or some other library?
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  738. # [18:58] <zcorpan> webben_: you can hack a relax ng schema, too
  739. # [18:59] <webben_> zcorpan: Oh absolutely, and I much prefer that.
  740. # [19:00] <webben_> The contrast is more with arbitrary code vs declarative rulesets.
  741. # [19:00] <webben_> so we're on route to a custom DTD, but the amount of effort it would require to customize the CSS validator is much higher
  742. # [19:01] <webben_> so there our immediate approach is to try to comment out bits of CSS we know won't validate
  743. # [19:01] <webben_> which is problematic in itself.
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  746. # [19:06] <Philip`> webben_: Might it be easier to filter the output of the CSS validator, to remove the errors you don't care about?
  747. # [19:07] <webben_> Philip`: There are some problems with that.
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  749. # [19:07] <webben_> some errors will cause the validator to stop parsing, or (iirc) parse differently than the parsing specified in CSS2.1
  750. # [19:07] <Philip`> Oh, that doesn't sound good
  751. # [19:08] <webben_> other errors that would work for - e.g. I think that would work for unrecognized properties.
  752. # [19:08] <atwilson> Hixie: Is it our intent to eventually expose WebSockets to workers?
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  755. # [19:12] <webben_> Philip`: contrast the output for a{*height:50px;min-height:50px;}a{color:red;} and a{height:50px;min-height:50px;}a{color:red;}
  756. # [19:13] <webben_> Philip`: in the first case, W3C validator implies there's no "Valid CSS information"
  757. # [19:13] <webben_> it recovers from a{foo:50px;min-height:50px;}a{color:red;} rather differently
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  762. # [19:17] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  764. # [19:19] <jgraham> brale: Yes that is possible
  765. # [19:19] <jgraham> How easy it is depends on exactly what you want
  766. # [19:21] <jgraham> e.g. import html5lib;import urllib2;from lxml import etree;print etree.tostring(html5lib.parse(urllib2.urlopen(url)), method="text")
  767. # [19:21] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-7292b7266db550e5)
  768. # [19:21] <jgraham> er
  769. # [19:21] <jgraham> import html5lib;import urllib2;from lxml import etree;print etree.tostring(html5lib.parse(urllib2.urlopen(url), treebuilder="lxml"), method="text")
  770. # [19:22] * jgraham guesses he made a dozen other mistakes too
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  773. # [19:28] <brale> jgraham: thanks. that was something I was thinking about (only i would use text_content). The thing is that I need only text that would actually be shown on the screen
  774. # [19:29] <brale> jgraham: so I am hoping that there is a more elegant solution to my problem. The main problem with lxml is that i will get text that's inside <script></script>, etc.
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  776. # [19:31] <jgraham> brale: Yeah you would need to blacklist some elements. If you also care about the style rules that are in effect hings become much more complex
  777. # [19:32] <zcorpan> brale: hmm, <script> is something that http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0682.html maybe should deal with too
  778. # [19:32] <brale> zcorpan: i think it would be smart
  779. # [19:33] <zcorpan> brale: what's your use case?
  780. # [19:33] <brale> jgraham: I don't care about style, I'm only interested in text
  781. # [19:34] <brale> zcorpan: text-mining, statistical models
  782. # [19:35] <zcorpan> brale: other than <img>, <script> and <style>, do you know which elements should be special-cased?
  783. # [19:37] <brale> zcorpan: <video> and some other html5 tags
  784. # [19:37] <zcorpan> how would you special case <video>?
  785. # [19:38] <brale> zcorpan: well I dont need anything thats inside
  786. # [19:38] <brale> as it would not give my any text on the screen
  787. # [19:40] <zcorpan> brale: would you want the text in <img alt="...">?
  788. # [19:40] <brale> zcorpan: I suppose not
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  790. # [19:42] <brale> maybe I should stop searching and start coding with html5lib/lxml and deal with problems as they come :D
  791. # [19:42] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  792. # [19:49] <zcorpan> smylers++
  793. # [19:50] <brale> zcorpan, jgraham: thanks for help
  794. # [19:56] <jgraham> smylers keeps posting good stuff today. I hope it has more success than my attempt to explain why there might be disagreement
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  796. # [19:58] <jgraham> Which seemed to fail. I'm not sure if it's because a) it was actually not that insightful b) it was not as well reasoned as I had hoped c) everything I say is regarded as tainted or d) other
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  798. # [20:01] <takkaria> I suspect it's one of them
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  800. # [20:03] <Philip`> jgraham: You could empirically test option c by adopting a fake name when posting to the list, so nobody will realise it's really you
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  807. # [20:21] <brale> jgraham: do you now anything about lxml/html5lib error "Invalid attribute name u'xml:lang'" ?
  808. # [20:25] <zcorpan> brale: is it an lxml error or html5lib error?
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  811. # [20:32] <brale> zcorpan, jgraham: Now I'me using html5lib from mercurial and it seems to work :D
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  815. # [20:46] <brale> jgraham, zcorpan: as I see there is a small bug in current mercurial version in html5lib/treewalkers/_base.py
  816. # [20:46] <brale> jgraham, zcorpan: in function endTag, missing ","
  817. # [20:47] <jgraham> brale: The treewalkers stuff on head is probably slightly broken
  818. # [20:47] <zcorpan> jgraham: is the foreign branch still more up to date?
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  820. # [20:48] <jgraham> zcorpan: No they have been merged
  821. # [20:48] <zcorpan> ok
  822. # [20:48] <jgraham> brale: I will check if I have any local patches that I should push out later but I am going out for a while now
  823. # [20:50] <brale> jgraham: ok. ( missing "," isn't that big ;) )
  824. # [20:50] <jgraham> brale: Patches welcome :)
  825. # [20:51] <brale> jgraham: will html5lib.HTMLParser be fine for using?
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  832. # [21:11] * Dashiva wonders if debate about accessibility is much different from debate about religion
  833. # [21:15] <Philip`> Dashiva: It is, because accessibility has some underlying quantitative facts (like how many people can read how many sites), and the debate might lead to a better understanding of those facts
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  836. # [21:24] <Dashiva> Philip`: This is true. But religion also has some underlying facts (history, written works, etc) that could be argued objectively. The problem is the people who turn every discussion into rhetorics.
  837. # [21:27] <tantek> Dashiva, I think the bigger problem is people who say "this is the way it is because I say so and I'm a [self-proclaimed] expert" - in other words, people that ask you to accept their assertions on faith.
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  877. # [23:15] <Hixie> atwilson: yes
  878. # [23:15] <atwilson> OK, thx.
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  884. # [23:32] <zcorpan> marginheight="" seems to be a way for pages to do cross-document communication, at least in one direction
  885. # [23:33] <zcorpan> cross-origin even
  886. # [23:34] <Hixie> ?
  887. # [23:34] <Hixie> oh, yeah, i guess
  888. # [23:34] <Hixie> heh
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  895. # [23:44] <zcorpan> woot, <pre width> is not in the rendering section
  896. # [23:46] <zcorpan> though it seems only opera and firefox support it
  897. # [23:48] * Parts: ojanLaptop (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  898. # [23:55] <Hixie> for those of you who were worried about paying for tpac using paypal, btw, apparently they will also accept checks made payable to MIT
  899. # [23:59] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@x1-6-00-1f-f3-c7-59-a0.k396.webspeed.dk)
  900. # Session Close: Thu Jun 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)