/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:37] <zcorpan> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentational_elements_and_attributes
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  20. # [00:41] * zcorpan realizes that he uses border="1" on that page, but it seemed that class="wikitable" did not result in anything
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  44. # [01:55] <zcorpan> http://zope.cetis.ac.uk/members/scott/blogview?entry=20090624222327
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  61. # [02:21] <Dashiva> So about those summaries... has anyone extracted a list of _useful_ summaries from that list Philip` made?
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  63. # [02:22] <zcorpan> Dashiva: what's a useful summary?
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  65. # [02:23] <Dashiva> There was that argument "Most of those summaries would never be used since they're on layout tables"
  66. # [02:24] <Dashiva> But that doesn't imply that the summaries that were on data tables are good. So I'm wondering if anyone has actually found some examples.
  67. # [02:25] <zcorpan> where's the data again?
  68. # [02:25] <Dashiva> http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-values-dotbot.html
  69. # [02:25] <Dashiva> (It seems reasonable to assume that a good, descriptive summary would not come from a layout table)
  70. # [02:30] <zcorpan> A table of four, single-cell rows. Cell one contains the trail to this section from the document home. Cell two contains a navigation bar to the pages within the current section of the overall document. Cell three contains the body text of the document. Cell four contains navigation to reference information for this web site www.mf-ct.upc.es/bathfreesim_doc/bfs_pra17.html
  71. # [02:30] <zcorpan> that's the first i found
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  73. # [02:31] <zcorpan> not clear to me whether it's a layout table or data table
  74. # [02:31] <zcorpan> but it's describing the structure of the table, which is the stated purpose of summary=""
  75. # [02:31] <Dashiva> That actually looks like a layout table, yeah.
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  77. # [02:33] <zcorpan> the actual data table on that page does *not* have a summary
  78. # [02:33] <zcorpan> while all layout tables have elaborate summaries
  79. # [02:34] <zcorpan> (the data table on that page seems simple enough to not needing a summary, though)
  80. # [02:36] <zcorpan> "A table with two columns listing title, author, date, source, subject headings and comments for selected newspaper articles"
  81. # [02:36] <zcorpan> http://www.santacruzpl.org/history/clippingfile/cliplist.php?page=3&subjhead2=621&newspaper=&;datelimit=
  82. # [02:37] <Dashiva> By the way, I was only asking if such a list existed. You don't have to make it for my sake :)
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  84. # [02:39] <zcorpan> i'm not making a list, i'm just having a peek
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  88. # [02:53] <zcorpan> actually, that was the only occurrence i found
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  90. # [02:54] <zcorpan> obviously i skipped any that were in languages i don't understand
  91. # [02:55] <heycam> Hixie, I think some of the interfaces that were added to the obsolete section need to inherit from HTMLElement
  92. # [02:55] <zcorpan> that table is also simple enough to not actually need a summary
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  197. # [10:24] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/intl/es/speed/articles/optimizing-html.html
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  217. # [10:55] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I wonder how effective those kinds of changes are post-gzip
  218. # [10:56] <zcorpan> othermaciej: might have no effect at all
  219. # [10:57] <othermaciej> that would be my gues
  220. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I also can't make much sense of this article: http://code.google.com/intl/es/speed/articles/reflow.html
  221. # [10:58] <Rik`> there's a lot of small perf improvements for big trouble reading code afterwards in those google articles
  222. # [10:59] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.42.178) (Remote closed the connection)
  223. # [11:00] <othermaciej> what exactly does it think "reflow" is?
  224. # [11:00] <Philip`> Adding </li>s and </p>s (with any necessary whitespace to http://www.google.com/intl/en/privacy.html makes the file 251 bytes larger, and makes the gzipped file 7 bytes larger
  225. # [11:00] <othermaciej> if it's a relayout, how can they say padding or width changes won't cause one in some browsers?
  226. # [11:00] <Philip`> s/whitespace/whitesspace)/
  227. # [11:01] <othermaciej> or that changing the background *will* cause one in Firefox? (Gecko can't possibly be that stupid)
  228. # [11:01] <Philip`> so it's not no effect at all
  229. # [11:01] <Philip`> s/whitesspace/whitespace/
  230. # [11:02] <Rik`> even if it has effects, the research done by the Bing team claims it has no effect on users
  231. # [11:02] <Rik`> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/06/bing-and-google-agree-slow-pag.html last paragraph
  232. # [11:02] <jgraham> Philip`: How does it compare to removing all whitespace bwetween elements? I guess that saves more bytes but feer gzip bytes
  233. # [11:02] <jgraham> *fewer
  234. # [11:04] <Philip`> jgraham: Removing whitespace from privacy.html seems to save 696 bytes, or 76 bytes in the gzipped version
  235. # [11:06] <zcorpan> maybe they should have focused on gzip and caching etc, and skip the minor optimizations that affect workflow and maintainability
  236. # [11:07] <zcorpan> the organization of css files is another thing that has close to no effect once gzipped
  237. # [11:07] <Philip`> But micro-optimisations are more fun :-(
  238. # [11:07] <Rik`> look at php otimizations, they are even more fun
  239. # [11:08] <othermaciej> what they should have done is told you that you how to measure the results of optimizations and not bother with ones that don't help
  240. # [11:08] <zcorpan> Rik`: like use single quotes instead of double quotes when the string has no variables?
  241. # [11:08] <Rik`> zcorpan: that and "don't copy variables !"
  242. # [11:08] <Philip`> "Sometimes PHP novices attempt to make their code "cleaner" by copying predefined variables to variables with shorter names." - stupid novices, trying to make their code cleaner
  243. # [11:09] <Rik`> I don't wanna see internal google code
  244. # [11:09] * hsivonen thinks jgraham's points were good but the "engineering" and "HCI" labels weren't quite apt given than people with an engineering background have been in the "HCI" mindset and vice versa
  245. # [11:09] <othermaciej> or better yet, how to tell where your page load timte is going so you can tell if it is even worth the effort to work on size of your HTML document, compared to other things you could do
  246. # [11:10] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think "scientist" vs "empath" was in some ways a more apt comparison, though it highlights a different kind of divide
  247. # [11:10] <Philip`> The Page Speed tool is useful, since it does actual measurements and lets you see what's slow in practice
  248. # [11:10] <othermaciej> i.e. valuing measurable results vs. wanting to signal that you care
  249. # [11:11] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  250. # [11:12] <Hixie> i was trying to explain the summary="" thing to a non-tech person today, trying to make it sound like the pro-summary="" position was the one i was supporting
  251. # [11:12] <Hixie> and as soon as i mentioned the data we collected, they basically were like "oh well then you should come up with something better"
  252. # [11:13] <Hixie> made me feel better that we're not the only ones who come to that conclusion
  253. # [11:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, I wondered about that. But the labels seem to reflect reality quite well even if they don't reflect preconceptions about how reality should be
  254. # [11:14] <jgraham> Maybe labels in general are bad. I could have just gone with "approach 1" and "approach 2"
  255. # [11:15] <jgraham> But I really wanted to get across the fact that language design is a HCI problem
  256. # [11:15] <Hixie> jgraham: the problem is that labelling the two "camps", or explaining the assumptions or approaches those "camps" are taking, doesn't help resolve the issue
  257. # [11:16] <hsivonen> aargh. I've managed to break the parser so that it puts <html> inside <body>
  258. # [11:16] <Hixie> which is that fundamentally, the pro-summary="" advocates have, as far as i can tell, refused to acknowledge that the data we've collected shows that summary="" hasn't worked
  259. # [11:16] <hsivonen> also, I think the data pretty well debunks the notions that
  260. # [11:17] <hsivonen> 1) summary is long
  261. # [11:17] <hsivonen> 2) summary is different from caption
  262. # [11:17] <jgraham> Hixie: The idea was to sho that reasonable people with different appraoches could come to different conclusions
  263. # [11:17] <jgraham> +w
  264. # [11:17] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/speed/articles/prefetching.html - "Profile your changes" - a revolutionary idea! Maybe the PHP article should talk more about profiling and less about changing double quotes to single quotes
  265. # [11:17] <Hixie> jgraham: sure
  266. # [11:17] <jgraham> Hixie: A great deal of friction has arisen because people have assumed that anyone with a different opinion is being unreasonable
  267. # [11:18] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm not sure that anyone who was assuming that before, if there are any, will think any differently now
  268. # [11:18] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah.
  269. # [11:19] <jgraham> I guess it was a waste of time. Hopefully it wasn't also harmful
  270. # [11:19] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  271. # [11:20] <Philip`> It could still help convince people who aren't firmly on any side of the discussion
  272. # [11:21] <Hixie> fundamentally, if two groups have contradictory goals (in this case "make it possible to write fully-accessible pages even if the overall quality of pages is lower than with other approaches" and "improve the overall quality of pages so that more are accessible even if the theoretical maximum accessibility is lower than with other approaches"), they won't come to an agreement
  273. # [11:21] <jgraham> Hixie: To be fair there has been some acknoledgement that it hasn't worked. It is just that they consider that it is important to have it even though it hasn't worked in general; either because they think it might work well in the future or because they think experts can use it and only experts matter
  274. # [11:21] <Hixie> jgraham: that's what i meant by "hasn't worked"
  275. # [11:22] <Hixie> jgraham: ("would only work if used by experts")
  276. # [11:22] <jgraham> Hixie: Right but reasonable people could disagree with that definition of "hasn't worked"
  277. # [11:22] <Hixie> sure
  278. # [11:23] <Hixie> anyway i don't see how i can reconcile the two goals here
  279. # [11:23] <Hixie> they seem to be contradictory
  280. # [11:23] <jgraham> Particularly if those "reasonable people" consider themselves to be the sort of experts who will use it
  281. # [11:25] <jgraham> Hixie: Allow flow content in <caption>, promote <caption><details> as a solution for cases where an extended summary is needed. It's not sure to work but it is a different approach that might be worth trying; soesn't seem to have potential for harm and might resolve the deadlock :)
  282. # [11:25] <Hixie> <caption><details> really isn't what i would recommend imho
  283. # [11:25] <Hixie> a disclosure triangle in a table caption would be really silly-looking
  284. # [11:26] <Hixie> and it's not clear to me that it is necessary anyway
  285. # [11:27] <Philip`> jgraham: Wouldn't any solution that graphically hides some text by default be subject to the same harm of people putting useless/incorrect/unreadable strings in it?
  286. # [11:27] <jgraham> Yeah, I worry about how it would look. It would be good if it could be easilly styled
  287. # [11:27] <Hixie> i think <details> would be far less spammed than summary=""
  288. # [11:27] * tantek wonders how many hours of how many individuals' time has been spent on the summary attribute debate, time that could have perhaps been directed at designing and user-testing alternative solutions with an eye towards developing something that user-tests better with typical (or even "modern") HTML authors.
  289. # [11:27] <jgraham> Hixie: In general not allowing flow content in <caption> makes no sense to me
  290. # [11:28] <jgraham> Why can't I have multi-paragraph captions
  291. # [11:28] <jgraham> ?
  292. # [11:28] <Hixie> jgraham: sure, but that's another issue
  293. # [11:29] <Hixie> assuming you've sent (non-summary-related) mail on it i'm sure i'll get around to it and fix that relatively soon
  294. # [11:29] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think the idea was to be consistent with other heading-like elements like h1, legend, dt
  295. # [11:29] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm not sure if I did
  296. # [11:29] <Hixie> jgraham: ah well then file a bug or something
  297. # [11:29] <zcorpan> jgraham: although it seems reasonable to be able to put two paragraphs or a list in a caption
  298. # [11:30] <jgraham> But anyway once you get flow content you get <details> for free so it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that for the cases where a complex table needs an extended summary
  299. # [11:31] <Hixie> if i'm going to suggestion something for complex tables that are so complex they need an extended summary, what i would suggest is "make your table simpler"
  300. # [11:31] <Hixie> not "hide your explanation so that people have to trigger a button to see it"
  301. # [11:31] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe <legend> should allow blocks too in figures
  302. # [11:32] <Hixie> (are multiparagraph captions something one sees in print at all?)
  303. # [11:33] <jgraham> Hixie: right, that would be my first point of advice too. But pragmatically there are some cases where you might be constrained to not do that
  304. # [11:33] <Hixie> i don't know that i'd ever tell people to use <details> even then
  305. # [11:33] <Hixie> but that's mostly academic imho
  306. # [11:34] <Hixie> the question is how do we proceed on this issue given that as far as i can tell, summary="" advocates won't accept anything short of including summary=""
  307. # [11:35] <Hixie> and given that the chairs are apparently unwilling to make any sort of statements regarding a decision
  308. # [11:35] <jgraham> Hixie: I wwould be interested to see if they would accept using <details>. It seems to be basically equivalent to using a <summary> element which they have advocated as a long term solution
  309. # [11:35] <annevk2> we could take the path of least resistance as shelley thinks we already do, but I'm not sure that'd be good
  310. # [11:35] <Hixie> annevk2: what's the path of least resistance?
  311. # [11:35] <Hixie> jgraham: have they not responded to those proposals?
  312. # [11:36] <jgraham> Hixie: Who is "they"?
  313. # [11:36] <jgraham> Oh I see what you mean
  314. # [11:36] <Hixie> jgraham: have summary="" advocates and <summary> advocates not commented on the <details> proposals?
  315. # [11:37] <jgraham> IIRC the response was more or less "we like the name 'summary' better"
  316. # [11:37] <Hixie> so they're ok with it?
  317. # [11:37] <Hixie> wow, i somehow missed that
  318. # [11:38] <jgraham> Hixie: I think they didn't say that :)
  319. # [11:38] <Hixie> what did they say then?
  320. # [11:38] <zcorpan> i don't understand the <summary> proposal
  321. # [11:38] <jgraham> AFAICT proposals are only taken seriously when you or Sam expresses an opinion on them
  322. # [11:38] <annevk2> Hixie, include it?
  323. # [11:38] <zcorpan> would <summary> be visible or not?
  324. # [11:39] <Hixie> annevk2: that's not the path of least resistance; i, for one, would object strongly to that solution as it has been shown to actually harm users
  325. # [11:39] <jgraham> zcorpan: Leif had a somewhat more coherent version of the proposal onthe list
  326. # [11:39] <zcorpan> <summary> would have to go inside the <caption> for legacy parsing reasons
  327. # [11:40] <jgraham> I think <summary> would have to work like <table><caption>My shory summary <summary>My description of the table structure</summary></caption>
  328. # [11:40] <jgraham> and <sumamry> would be hidden by default and get a disclosure triangle
  329. # [11:41] <Hixie> i think that'd be exactly as bad as <details>
  330. # [11:41] <jgraham> (btw I find it counterintuituve that <details> uses <legend> around the bit that is visible by default rather than the bit that is hidden)
  331. # [11:42] <Hixie> <details> is like <fieldset> except the contents are hidden
  332. # [11:42] <Hixie> anyway i should sleep
  333. # [11:42] <Hixie> i guess i wish the chairs would at least give some guidance on how to proceed
  334. # [11:42] <jgraham> Hixie: Agreed. The technical difference between the proposals is minimal. The differences are mainly about whether it is seen to be Designed for the Blind (tm)
  335. # [11:43] <Hixie> (as i have asked for several times so far, with no response)
  336. # [11:43] <Hixie> nn
  337. # [11:43] <jgraham> gn
  338. # [11:45] <jgraham> (Actually the original proposal has <summary> as a child of <table> which is a technical difference but has really bad legcay behaviour so I was kind of overlooking it)
  339. # [11:46] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  341. # [11:53] <hsivonen> <summary> is unworkable for legacy reasons. There's really no point in even discussing it.
  342. # [11:53] <hsivonen> if anyone wants a child element of <table>, it has to be called <caption> no matter what its semantics are defined to be
  343. # [11:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Which legacy reasons?
  344. # [11:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: fosterparenting
  345. # [11:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ah OK. I wondered if there is something else I overlooked
  346. # [11:54] <jgraham> As I said, it would have to be a child of <caption>
  347. # [11:55] <Lachy> there's no reason the summary needs to be a child of the table. All that's needed is some kind of association between the summary and the table, and there are many ways to do that
  348. # [11:56] <jgraham> Lachy: I can think of three (caption, figure and aria-describedby) which is not really "many"
  349. # [11:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: <summary> as sibling of <table> (quite unconventional, yes)
  350. # [11:57] <zcorpan> putting it as child of caption has the advantage that the association works in legacy AT
  351. # [11:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Before or after the <table>? Ignoring whitespace? Ignoring comments?
  352. # [12:00] <jgraham> Philip`: sibling is quite eel defined, no?
  353. # [12:00] <jgraham> s/eel/well/
  354. # [12:00] <Philip`> Oh, I'm probably misinterpreting it as "adjacent sibling"
  355. # [12:00] <Philip`> You could write <table><summary>... and then it'd be a sibling of the table :-)
  356. # [12:00] <Lachy> I'm not convinced of the need to have such explicit assocation. Just summarise the table in the preceding paragraph
  357. # [12:01] <Lachy> so <p>This is a summary of the following table...</p><table>...</table>
  358. # [12:02] <jgraham> Lachy: If people who use AT argue it is helpful for them to have such an association it is quite hard to argue it is not helpful (I'm not sure if people actually did argue this for table summaries)
  359. # [12:02] <jgraham> (but it seems plausible at least because you can e.g. reread the summary eailly if you get lost in the middle of the table)
  360. # [12:03] <Philip`> Sibling would be bad because people would write <!doctype html><p>Blah blah <summary>Blah</summary> <table> and then it wouldn't actually be a sibling
  361. # [12:05] <Lachy> I'm sure they did. That doesn't mean they're right. I haven't seen any usability studies demonstrating how effective or ineffective a summary would be if it doesn't have an explicit association in the markup
  362. # [12:07] <Philip`> In the absence of any usability studies (because presumably the WG doesn't care enough about accessibility to actually do any), the best information we have about user behaviour is what users claim
  363. # [12:08] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  364. # [12:11] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@131.165.177.65)
  365. # [12:11] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  366. # [12:13] <Lachy> Philip`, sure, but anyone in the field of usability knows you should avoid giving too much weight to what the user says, as their behaviour can often completely contradict that
  367. # [12:15] <Philip`> Lachy: Indeed, but hypothesising about other people's behaviour is likely to be even less accurate, and we don't currently have any other sources of information
  368. # [12:16] <Lachy> I havent' hypothesised about it. I just said I wasn't convinced of the need for explicit association
  369. # [12:17] <Lachy> and in the interst of finding the simplest solution possible, I think simply including the summary in the surrounding prose may be sufficient
  370. # [12:18] <Philip`> You're hypothesising that it's sufficient for users
  371. # [12:18] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results first used summary="", then moved it to a <p> before the table, and now includes it in the <caption>
  372. # [12:18] <Lachy> well, in that case, you're hypothesising that it isn't, and neither one of us have any data to test it
  373. # [12:19] <Philip`> Lachy: I'm not hypothesising anything myself
  374. # [12:20] <Lachy> you're hypothesising just as much as I am, which is none. But it is you that claimed I was
  375. # [12:20] <Philip`> You said "I think [stuff] may be sufficient" which sounds like a hypothesis to me :-)
  376. # [12:21] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1145-ipbf7105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  377. # [12:21] <jgraham> If you knew whether users were right about their own needs more often than they were wrong then you could use that to pick the more likely hypothesis
  378. # [12:22] * jgraham notes that ouldn't actually work for all sorts of reasons
  379. # [12:22] <jgraham> wouldn't
  380. # [12:24] <zcorpan> Lachy: i think bug 7035 is questioning the use case of the content model concept, not the diagram itself
  381. # [12:25] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@vp-c-69.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  382. # [12:29] <Philip`> On the subject of page speed: if you use mod_deflate in Apache 2.2, then it breaks caching (by generating invalid ETags)
  383. # [12:29] <Philip`> I would have hoped this kind of thing would be more of a solved problem by now
  384. # [12:34] <Dashiva> Oh look, antoher reference to the bible on public-html
  385. # [12:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: before, ignoring comments and whitespace
  386. # [12:35] <Lachy> zcorpan, it clearly said:
  387. # [12:35] <Lachy> <sayrer>
  388. # [12:35] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/images/content-venn.svg
  389. # [12:35] <Lachy> <sayrer> why does that exist?
  390. # [12:36] <Lachy> and the reason content models exist should be fairly obvious to anyone
  391. # [12:38] <jgraham> Lachy: sayrer is a HTML anarchist. He doesn't believe in any sort of central authority over what is allowed in a document
  392. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I think Rob may be questioning whether the use cases for implementors needing to care anything about the content classes that the spec defines -- interactive, sectioning, etc.
  393. # [12:39] <Lachy> MikeSmith, conformance checkers do. Browser's probably don't
  394. # [12:40] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I failed to parse that sentence
  395. # [12:40] <jgraham> +exist maybe?
  396. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: remove "whether", I think
  397. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's fun to speculate about Rob thinks
  398. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> we should play this game more often
  399. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> for other stuff
  400. # [12:41] <Lachy> MikeSmith, but it was you who filed the bug. Why couldn't Rob do it?
  401. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> like, instead of What Would Jesus Do?, we could ask, What Would Rob Think?
  402. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I filed that bug solely for humor purposes.
  403. # [12:41] <Lachy> ok
  404. # [12:44] <takkaria> so the bugtracker is the place to explore possibility for entertainment value but the mailing list isn't? :)
  405. # [12:44] <beowulf> takkaria: irc is no place for humour
  406. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> takkaria: well, I already got dressed down by a range of partisans for using the bugzilla for entertainment purposes
  407. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> so I suppose I won't do it again
  408. # [12:45] <beowulf> basg.org is not acceptable evidence as bash.org is not an expert on irc
  409. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> unless/until I forget the lesson I learned from this
  410. # [12:45] <beowulf> s/basg/bash
  411. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> which should take at least 2 weeks for me to forget
  412. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> anyway, in other news, fwiw to anybody on here who might be running their own instance of validator.nu -- I just checked in an new "--local" option that lets you run v.nu without it needing to grab the IANA language registry and Wiki stuff over the network remotely
  413. # [12:47] <zcorpan> speaking of wiki and v.nu...
  414. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> so it will help you to say, prevent yourself from looking likely an total asshead (as I did) when you go somewhere and try to do a v.nu demo and find you have no network connection
  415. # [12:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: do you think it would be useful for v.nu to point to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentational_elements_and_attributes when complaining about certain obsolete elements?
  416. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, that could be added to the assertions-checking code, I suppose
  417. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> like I said, I think there's a lot more that could be done yet with putting out advice for obsolete elements and other stuff
  418. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: there was something I was going to ask you about earlier today, but I forgot
  419. # [12:51] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you should ask it even if i'm not here, so that you can point me to the logs later :)
  420. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> true that
  421. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> speaking of lessons learned, I got this amateur schoolmarm who wants to learn me about how to look smarter in my blog postings
  422. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.net/2009/06/22/webkit-sniffer/#comments
  423. # [12:56] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@131.165.177.65)
  424. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> he mistakes me for somebody who cares about appearing to be articulate
  425. # [12:57] <Dashiva> There's nothing wrong with Realpolitik
  426. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I spelled it wrong, apparently
  427. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> Realpolitick
  428. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> with a "ck"
  429. # [12:58] <takkaria> I noticed that when I read it but cba pointing it out
  430. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> I call that the "tribute to 17th-century spelling conventions" spelling
  431. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, the few blog postings I manage to get around doing are pretty much the equivalent of scribblings on cocktail napkins
  432. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> or on toilet paper
  433. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> anybody who expects me to spell words in them right is going to be disappointed
  434. # [13:01] <takkaria> since befriending an extremely dyslexic person and talking to them online a fair bit, my tolerance for spelling errors has gone up a lot
  435. # [13:01] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: I'm sure those international readers aren't steady on the spelling anyhow
  436. # [13:02] <takkaria> I'm almost slightly annoyed that I'm not annoyed at people not spelling things anymore
  437. # [13:02] <takkaria> s/things/things right/
  438. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> I think I will reply to his comment with, "Thanks for you pedantrie."
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  440. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> and then he can correct me on my misspelling of "pedantrie"
  441. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> that would be great
  442. # [13:04] <Dashiva> If you took each word and randomly jumbled the letters, would that count as 'not spelling'
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  444. # [13:11] * hsivonen agrees with zcorpan about hasFeature and "2.0"
  445. # [13:11] <hsivonen> hasFeature is pointless already. Better just freeze it.
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  447. # [13:14] <Dashiva> Would it be needed at all if Java had proper capability detection?
  448. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Dashiva: no
  449. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Java has reflection :-)
  450. # [13:15] <Dashiva> Been there, done that. :)
  451. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I wonder how often people actually write non-mobile Java apps that use hasFeature
  452. # [13:15] <hsivonen> one would think that first you target JDK 1.4.2
  453. # [13:15] <hsivonen> then when you upgrade to targeting JDK 5, you just stop running on 1.4.2
  454. # [13:16] <hsivonen> and when you upgrade to JDK 6, you stop running on JDK 5
  455. # [13:16] <hsivonen> and when your aren't ready to increment the platform requirement, you just keep targeting the older JDK
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  457. # [13:17] <hsivonen> and if you are using a non-Sun JDK that opts to ship a non-Xerces JAXP back end, you are in the world of hurt anyway
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  472. # [14:13] <Lachy> LOL, this is what not to do with your ssh private key :-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/1241.html
  473. # [14:31] <Philip`> Lachy: Old news :-p
  474. # [14:31] <Philip`> (See #html-wg)
  475. # [14:35] <Dashiva> Lachy got Warnocked
  476. # [14:38] <hsivonen> does Opera support <script defer>? what about IE?
  477. # [14:38] <Philip`> Dashiva: That seems like an entirely novel use of the term "Warnocked"
  478. # [14:39] <Philip`> (unless I'm misunderstanding the context)
  479. # [14:39] <Dashiva> Philip`: If someone had replied to the email, he would know it's an "old" topic.
  480. # [14:39] <Dashiva> But without replies, maybe he was the first to notice?
  481. # [14:40] <Lachy> Dashiva, how did I get warnocked? what does that mean?
  482. # [14:42] <Dashiva> Well, maybe more like second order warnocking.
  483. # [14:42] <Dashiva> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock's_Dilemma
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  490. # [15:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: opera no, ie yes
  491. # [15:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. thanks
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  496. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> annevk2: while you are in Denmark, if you happen to stop by a CD shop, please buy me "I've Got You on Tape"
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  540. # [17:53] <gsnedders> jgraham, zcorpan: Would either of you happen to have a bed sheet I could borrow tomorrow? :P
  541. # [17:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sure
  542. # [17:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: thanks
  543. # [17:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Mail, please
  544. # [17:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Mail for what? Can I just pick it up at the office seeming I need to get flat key from there?
  545. # [17:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can you make do with getting it back when I next see you (which I guess should be no later than Monday)
  546. # [17:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: For the purpose of me remembering to look for it
  547. # [17:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, email. duh.
  548. # [17:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't promise it will manage to send on this wifi.
  549. # [17:56] <gsnedders> :(
  550. # [17:56] <jgraham> Actually, come to think of it, I wonder if we have two bed sheets spare since we have visitors... I guess it is not impossible
  551. # [17:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: cam or opera email?
  552. # [17:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: opera or hopipolla
  553. # [17:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: I only need one bed sheet! :P
  554. # [17:56] <jgraham> *hoppipolla
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  556. # [18:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: sent
  557. # [18:00] <gsnedders> (hopefully)
  558. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Still sending…
  559. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Should have sent
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  619. # [21:31] <spithash> hey niggers
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  628. # [22:01] <Hixie> http://twitter.com/itpastorn/statuses/2329152650
  629. # [22:01] <Hixie> when two conspiracy theories conflict...
  630. # [22:03] <Dashiva> Nah
  631. # [22:04] <Dashiva> Google doesn't actually like RDFa. Their implementation is intended to subvert existing support, while the spec work ensures it doesn't get any more popularity!
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  637. # [22:34] <takkaria> i heard rumours that Sergei actually sits by Hixie's desk and tells him what to specify when he can't make up his mind
  638. # [22:35] <Hixie> actually sergey has never made a suggestion for the spec as far as i recall
  639. # [22:35] <Hixie> the acknowledgements section does list other people who have, though, whose names may be unexpected
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  644. # [22:37] <takkaria> you would say that
  645. # [22:37] <takkaria> it must be hard to edit independently with that corporate agenda pushing all your decisions
  646. # [22:37] <takkaria> and the need to keep it quiet so conspiracy theories won't form
  647. # [22:38] <inimino> wow, Rasputin and the Bilderbergs, that /was/ unexpected
  648. # [22:46] <Dashiva> Maybe Hixie doesn't actually exist
  649. # [22:48] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-df8a377c2b815b73)
  650. # [22:51] <takkaria> Hixie: with regards to disagreeing with stuff in the spec
  651. # [22:52] <takkaria> surely if the arguments for something's inclusion are sound, then your opinion is that that thing should be included?
  652. # [22:52] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.228) (Connection timed out)
  653. # [22:53] <beowulf> i read on twitter that hixie is in something called a gene pool
  654. # [22:53] <beowulf> i hope he has an inflatible dinosaur
  655. # [22:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.18.129)
  656. # [22:54] <Hixie> takkaria: i think the arguments for including the /> syntax are solid, but i still don't _want_ the /> syntax in text/html
  657. # [22:54] <Hixie> takkaria: if that makes sense
  658. # [22:55] <Hixie> takkaria: if i could find a way to get rid of style="", i'd want to do so
  659. # [22:57] <takkaria> hmm, OK
  660. # [22:57] <takkaria> the idealist in you hasn't quiet yet died then :)
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  662. # [22:59] <Hixie> right
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  672. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Woops. Do I have IRC open? I guess I'll drop offline with this terrible wifi soon
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The end :)