/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-06-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 28 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:17] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@cvo-cr1-203-149.peak.org)
  4. # [00:17] <sayrer> huh, I see that inputmode was removed
  5. # [00:18] <sayrer> in favor of -waf-format-mode or some such
  6. # [00:18] <sayrer> is there an HTML5 way to do predictOn/predictOff ?
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  8. # [00:26] <Philip`> http://thevideobay.org/ - "TVB aims to use the new HTML5 features, more specificly the <video> and <audio> tags with the ogg/theora video and audio formats"
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  11. # [00:38] <annevk2> sayrer, it wasn't removed in favor of anything
  12. # [00:39] <annevk2> sayrer, iirc it was removed because the sole reason we had it was because of XForms
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  14. # [00:41] <sayrer> annevk2: the checkin comment says something else
  15. # [00:42] <sayrer> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001395.html
  16. # [00:43] <sayrer> I found that the carrington mobile wordpress theme uses it
  17. # [00:44] <annevk2> oh, interesting
  18. # [00:44] <sayrer> looks like webkit supports it
  19. # [00:44] <sayrer> or maybe only android?
  20. # [00:44] <sayrer> hmm
  21. # [00:45] <sayrer> I guess I should try predictOff
  22. # [00:49] <sayrer> don't see any resolved webkit bugs for it
  23. # [00:49] <sayrer> but it is in XHTML Basic
  24. # [00:50] <Midler> Philip`: ofcourse
  25. # [00:50] <sayrer> maybe I should ask alex king why he put it in there
  26. # [00:55] <sayrer> ah, looks like they added it to satisfy the mobileOk validator
  27. # [00:55] <sayrer> wonder if any real handsets pay attention to it
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  33. # [02:01] <Hixie> it's so hot here that my macbook pro's right-hand-side usb port doesn't provide enough power to power my keyboard
  34. # [02:01] <Hixie> i don't even know how that makes sense
  35. # [02:03] <gsnedders> So if you put a fan next to it it works?
  36. # [02:04] <Hixie> dunno
  37. # [02:04] <Hixie> but the port was working fine earlier before it was so hot
  38. # [02:04] <gsnedders> Are you sure it's not just coincidence?
  39. # [02:05] <Hixie> the heat has also caused my cats to crash, one of the thinks the wall is the floor and is sleeping with his four feet against the wall
  40. # [02:05] <Hixie> it's very cute
  41. # [02:05] <gsnedders> My father had EyeTV stop working after upgrading to a new version. It turned out, after a week or two, that a cable had fallen out.
  42. # [02:05] <Hixie> i expect what's going on is that the heat has caused some wire to not connect properly
  43. # [02:05] <Hixie> something similar is going on on my mac mini
  44. # [02:06] <Hixie> on hot days, one of my drobos disconnects
  45. # [02:06] <gsnedders> Why would the heat cause that? Surely it should cause it to expand? But if the case expands and takes the two things further apart than the metal expands…
  46. # [02:06] <Hixie> (doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the drobo, but it could be that too of course)
  47. # [02:06] <gsnedders> Yeah, I guess I can make some sense out of it
  48. # [02:06] <Hixie> gsnedders: different metals can expand in different ways
  49. # [02:06] <Hixie> look up how an old-style thermostat works :-)
  50. # [02:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: Hey, this is cem. I don't claim to know anything :P
  51. # [02:07] * gsnedders hasn't done chem. in his last four years of school
  52. # [02:07] <gsnedders> (I somewhat regret that, but by the time I regretting not taking it, it was too late)
  53. # [02:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: Also, we have a old-style thermostat at home :P
  54. # [02:09] <Hixie> well then
  55. # [02:09] * gsnedders ought to sleep seeming it is 2am
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  67. # [04:16] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2009-June/000258.html ...?
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  71. # [06:18] <Hixie> anyone got any short but compelling examples for me to put in the <div> section?
  72. # [06:18] <Hixie> showing how it's not a sectioning element... and not showing something that can be done any other way
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  112. # [10:45] <Hixie> can anyone think of a variable-size encoding that is a superset of ASCII and that has 0x3C as the second character of a two- (or more) byte sequence?
  113. # [10:46] <Hixie> (Shift_JIS doesn't ever use 0x3C in the second byte apparently)
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  124. # [11:19] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
  125. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yep
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  127. # [11:33] <Hixie> ok _one_ of these modes in 2022 has to be able to have a byte sequence that contains a 3C without that being a "<" somehow
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  129. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: need somebody like Junshik Shin
  130. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> encodings guru
  131. # [11:37] * MikeSmith remembers he meant to file a bug about definition of "sectioning content"
  132. # [11:38] <annevk2> Hixie, why in 2022? I'd hope we have less encodings by then, or at least the same amount as now
  133. # [11:39] <svl> annevk2: ISO-2022-x
  134. # [11:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i was talking to smontagu about this earlier
  135. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well, if he doesn't know either, it's time to worry
  136. # [11:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  137. # [11:57] * gsnedders feels weak.
  138. # [11:57] <gsnedders> I can't open a jam jar :(
  139. # [12:01] <eighty4> use a knife to "pop" it
  140. # [12:03] <gsnedders> eighty4: The jam jar is stronger than the knife
  141. # [12:03] <takkaria> you've tried using a towel for extra grip?
  142. # [12:04] <gsnedders> takkaria: yeah
  143. # [12:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-3-9.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  144. # [12:04] <Hixie> you've tried using hot and cold water to expand the top and shrink the glass?
  145. # [12:04] <eighty4> hot water?
  146. # [12:04] <eighty4> :)
  147. # [12:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: yes
  148. # [12:04] <Hixie> are you sure it's actually openable?
  149. # [12:04] <eighty4> yeah it is
  150. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, but I'd hope it is so I can eat it :P
  151. # [12:05] <eighty4> I've managed with the same kind. It's just crazy hard .)
  152. # [12:05] <Hixie> have you tried stabbing the top with something sharp to equalise the pressure?
  153. # [12:05] <gsnedders> (seriously though, it's a normal jam jar)
  154. # [12:05] <Hixie> (of course you'll have to finish all today if you do that)
  155. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: I don't really have anything sharp enough, and I wouldn't finish it that quickly.
  156. # [12:05] <Hixie> i recommend sticking it in the freezer for a bit and trying the hot water trick again
  157. # [12:06] <eighty4> does cold water actually shrink the glass?
  158. # [12:06] * gsnedders notices he's broken his nail trying to open this :P
  159. # [12:07] <eighty4> I've never used that. Only hot water and it's worked before. Hot water will expand the tiny amount of air inside...
  160. # [12:07] <takkaria> gsnedders: well, if you pierce the top, you can clingfilm it afterward
  161. # [12:08] <gsnedders> takkaria: I need clingfilm for that
  162. # [12:08] <Hixie> eighty4: hot water on its own works because it expands the glass and the top at different rates
  163. # [12:09] <Hixie> eighty4: i don't think it affects the pressure inside any measurable amount
  164. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm here briefly
  165. # [12:09] <Hixie> eighty4: cold water on one part and hot on the other just makes the size change more drastic
  166. # [12:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: no worries, i figured it out
  167. # [12:10] <eighty4> Hixie: Sounds reasonable
  168. # [12:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: basically i was going to ask what you wanted to do about charset sniffing with encodings that are ascii supersets but have "modes" where they become multibyte and then can have ascii-like bytes that aren't ascii
  169. # [12:10] <gsnedders> Hixie: The hot is on the metal lid, right?
  170. # [12:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: but i convinced myself that it's not possible to make a real polyglot doc that is valid in two different encodings with different <meta charset>s applying
  171. # [12:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: generally, yeah, unless you have a weird situation where the problem is that the glass is pulling on the lid somehow keeping it shut
  172. # [12:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: which is possible i guess
  173. # [12:12] * gsnedders normally goes for the get-father-to-open-it solution
  174. # [12:13] <Hixie> i used to use the get-sister-to-open-it solution for shrinkwraped products
  175. # [12:13] <Hixie> that stopped working when i left the country too
  176. # [12:14] <eighty4> that proves that one shouldn't leave the country :)
  177. # [12:14] <gsnedders> I guess the right solution is to not leave the country.
  178. # [12:15] <Hixie> eighty4: i later left the continent too :-P
  179. # [12:16] <Hixie> Philip`: please checkin r3331 and try to come up with some encoding combination in which that's possible
  180. # [12:16] <Hixie> Philip`: er, please see checkin r3331 and..., rather
  181. # [12:17] * gsnedders still can't open it
  182. # [12:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are quite lame
  183. # [12:18] <Hixie> send it home
  184. # [12:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: certainly
  185. # [12:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have seriously tried running the top under hot water for a minute and then using a towel to get a reasonable amount of grip?
  186. # [12:19] <jgraham> And it didn't work?
  187. # [12:20] <gsnedders> w00t!
  188. # [12:20] <annevk2> svl, hehe, confusing that it happens to collide with a certain year
  189. # [12:20] <gsnedders> Finally, after combining it with the freezer, it works
  190. # [12:24] <eighty4> :)
  191. # [12:24] <eighty4> nice
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  195. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: making a reputation for yourself
  196. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> "the guy who's such a wussy, he can't even open a jam jar"
  197. # [12:29] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't understand what "a superset of US-ASCII ... ignoring cases where those bytes would be part of multibyte sequences" actually means
  198. # [12:30] <Hixie> not sure how else to phrase it
  199. # [12:30] <Hixie> i mean like 8859-1 and Shift_JIS
  200. # [12:30] <Hixie> but not GSM 03.38 or EBCDIC
  201. # [12:34] <Philip`> I'd probably be happier if it said something like "bytes in the set ..., ignoring cases where they are not the first byte of a multibyte sequence, decode into the same character as in US-ASCII" or something like that
  202. # [12:34] <Philip`> unless it's meant to be about encoding rather than decoding
  203. # [12:40] <Hixie> Philip`: is the new text better? (regenning now, give it 10 seconds or so)
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  207. # [12:44] * jgraham laments how hard it is to get computed style of HTML elements
  208. # [12:45] <jgraham> (outside of a browser environment)
  209. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> god help those who need to reproduce/match browser handling of standards outside of an actual browser
  210. # [12:59] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, it's the whole "superset ..." thing that I don't understand
  211. # [12:59] <Hixie> ah
  212. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> are there any attributes whose values aren't PCDATA? e.g., any that if you put a character reference into their value, it will be handled as a literal string, instead of being dereferenced?
  213. # [13:00] <takkaria> no
  214. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  215. # [13:01] <Hixie> yes
  216. # [13:01] <Hixie> well
  217. # [13:01] <Hixie> no
  218. # [13:01] <Hixie> but there's an attribute where entities aren't allowed
  219. # [13:01] <Hixie> two, actually
  220. # [13:01] <Hixie> <meta charset> and in certain equivalent cases <meta content>
  221. # [13:02] <Hixie> and they cause trouble if used there
  222. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> OK
  223. # [13:02] * MikeSmith goes to re-read parsing algorithm
  224. # [13:04] <Philip`> (Argh, lost connection)
  225. # [13:04] <Philip`> Hixie: e.g.: Does it mean 0x3C (followed by any other byte sequence, not preceded by a partial multibyte sequence) must decode to U+003C? Or U+003C must always be encoded to 0x3C?
  226. # [13:04] <Hixie> is there any encoding where that distinction is relevant?
  227. # [13:04] <Philip`> (If you could encode U+003C into two different sequences, one of which was 0x3C, surely that would still be a superset)
  228. # [13:07] <Hixie> i rephrased it again, is it better now? (let me know if you're on your pennies-per-byte connection and i'll paste it in here)
  229. # [13:07] <Philip`> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/10/17/UTF8-plus - UTF-8+names probably lets you encode U+003C as 0x26 0x6C 0x74 0x3B as well as as 0x3C
  230. # [13:08] <Philip`> It's pennies-per-megabyte, which isn't quite so bad, but I am on it anyway :-(
  231. # [13:09] * gsnedders wonders where laundry is in this building
  232. # [13:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: I would guess that it's either dumped on your floor, or in a bag
  233. # [13:10] <gsnedders> s/laundry/washing machines/
  234. # [13:10] <gsnedders> s/is/are/
  235. # [13:11] <Philip`> Ah
  236. # [13:18] <Philip`> MikeSmith: There's doctypes too, where the things that look quoted attribute strings can't contain entities
  237. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  238. # [13:22] <Philip`> Hixie: If I had an error-correcting version of UTF16-BE, which mapped the one-byte string 0x3C (and similarly the two-byte string 0x3C 0x00) onto U+003C, would that be ASCII-compatible?
  239. # [13:22] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  241. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> so if I wanted to try to have a term that unambiguously describes the contents of <script> and <style> elements, would "unparsed character data" be inaccurate?
  242. # [13:32] <Hixie> Philip`: i... guess?
  243. # [13:32] <Hixie> Philip`: how would it know that 0x3C was an error though?
  244. # [13:42] <Philip`> Hixie: Because it would reach the end of the file/string and flush all unfinished characters
  245. # [13:47] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com)
  246. # [13:51] <Philip`> Hixie: "a document that is valid as two different encodings at once, with different <meta charset> elements applying in each case" - depending on what's meant by "valid", how about <meta charset=&quot;utf-8 +names"> ?
  247. # [13:52] <Philip`> which has charset equivalent to utf-8 if you decode as utf-8, and equivalent to utf-8+names if you decode as utf-8+names
  248. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> hendry: thanks for dwm+dmenu tip. I'll give it a try
  249. # [13:52] <Philip`> (based on http://www.tbray.org/tag/utf-8+names.html)
  250. # [14:04] <Philip`> I suppose what's really needed is that if a document saying <meta charset="X"> is encoded as X and then decoded as ASCII, it will still be seen to say <meta charset="X">, so the requirement is that U+003C etc must *encode* to 0x3C, and nothing else must encode to any sequence containing 0x3C etc
  251. # [14:05] <Philip`> s/\*encode\*/always encode/
  252. # [14:07] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  255. # [14:33] * gsnedders is trying to get hoodie and jacket back from the bus he left it on :(
  256. # [14:36] * gsnedders has been told to ring another number
  257. # [14:37] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  258. # [15:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-225-51.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  261. # [15:24] <gsnedders> Oh yay.
  262. # [15:24] <gsnedders> Ringing that number I just got told to ring the number I got told to call originally.
  263. # [15:44] <Phae> annoying newb question: is @profile still non-html5?
  264. # [15:44] <gsnedders> Yes
  265. # [15:45] <Phae> hokeykokey. just checking.
  266. # [16:00] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
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  274. # [17:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: I have a problem with returning clean bed sheets tomorrow: I can't find washing machine.
  275. # [18:05] * Joins: Midler (n=midler@79.138.206.25.bredband.tre.se)
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  277. # [18:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't worry, we can wash them.
  278. # [18:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Did you get your jacket back?
  279. # [18:13] * gsnedders does need to find the washing machine though
  280. # [18:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: no :(
  281. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: Have you looked in the basement for the washing machine?
  282. # [18:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: If there is a basement, how do I get there? :P
  283. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Down some stairs?
  284. # [18:18] * gsnedders was actually expecting that answer
  285. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't find any such stairs.
  286. # [18:19] <eighty4> gsnedders: a friend of mine lives in a similar building. I'll ask him when he gets home.
  287. # [18:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: There may not be a basement. It's just that in the small sample of all Swedish apartments I have lived in a) there is a basement and b) the washing machine is in the basement
  288. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: thx
  289. # [18:19] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@host86-154-227-105.range86-154.btcentralplus.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  290. # [18:20] <eighty4> jgraham: I think it's true for more then 90% of all swedish houses.
  291. # [18:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is there anything I should bring to work with me tomorrow?
  292. # [18:23] <gsnedders> (Apart from your bed sheets)
  293. # [18:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: I would come fully clothed.
  294. # [18:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: OK, apart from the normal social requirements to go outside.
  295. # [18:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: More seriously I guess your passport will help with the tax stuff
  296. # [18:24] <jgraham> You shouldn't really need anything for work
  297. # [18:26] <Midler> jgraham: ususally, i believe the washing machine is inside the toilette room
  298. # [18:26] <Midler> It uses to be it..mostly
  299. # [18:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you have a plan for lunch? Some core people go out regularly (at about 11:30am (!)) so you can join them or you can bring your own stuff
  300. # [18:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: I have no plan.
  301. # [18:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: My plan for tomorrow is about as detailed as go to work some time after 9 and before 10, and to go home sometime.
  302. # [18:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you have no food we can go for lunch and you will get to meet some new people
  303. # [18:27] <jgraham> Which is good
  304. # [18:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't have anything to bring food in, more seriously.
  305. # [18:28] <eighty4> Midler: not in rental apartments
  306. # [18:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK
  307. # [18:28] <Midler> =/
  308. # [18:28] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  309. # [18:28] * gsnedders notes eighty4 has the advantage of actually having been in my flat :P
  310. # [18:28] <eighty4> at least not the smaller once
  311. # [18:29] <Midler> eighty4: well, thats true
  312. # [18:29] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  313. # [18:29] <eighty4> gsnedders: true :)
  314. # [18:30] <eighty4> jgraham: isn't 11.30 a regular lunch time? or was the ! for something else?
  315. # [18:30] <gsnedders> eighty4: For anyone from GB that's absurdly early.
  316. # [18:30] <eighty4> gsnedders: really? I start to get hungry around 11 :)
  317. # [18:31] <gsnedders> eighty4: In Britain we normally start to think about having breakfast at 8, if at all. Then lunch at 12 or 1.
  318. # [18:31] <eighty4> but I eat breakfast around 07 and have 1-2 cups of coffe
  319. # [18:31] <jgraham> eighty4: That is 1-1.5 hours earlier than I would usually eat lunch
  320. # [18:31] <eighty4> gsnedders: that's just crazy
  321. # [18:32] <jgraham> (but then I don't start the day as early as a typical Swede)
  322. # [18:32] <Midler> well...there is a reason we say "eftermiddag" when we mean after 12 a clock
  323. # [18:32] <eighty4> everyone know that breakfast is the most important meal
  324. # [18:32] <eighty4> and lunch is almost as important
  325. # [18:32] * jgraham always has breakfast
  326. # [18:32] * gsnedders never had breakfast while at school, more or less :P
  327. # [18:33] <Midler> Hard translated eftermiddag would mean after dinner
  328. # [18:33] <eighty4> gsnedders: that's no good. You learn better when you've eaten
  329. # [18:33] <eighty4> Midler: no, actually not
  330. # [18:33] <Midler> but it means afternoon in english
  331. # [18:33] <eighty4> it would mean after mid day
  332. # [18:33] <gsnedders> In England, "afternoon" normally means after lunch.
  333. # [18:33] <eighty4> or at least that's what I've learnt :)
  334. # [18:34] <Midler> hmm, and i always thought it meant after dinner =(
  335. # [18:34] <gsnedders> (In Scotland, it normally means after 12:00)
  336. # [18:34] <eighty4> Midler: your translation of it is better then mine :)
  337. # [18:34] <eighty4> lets go with yours
  338. # [18:34] <eighty4> and what's up with everyone being in sweden in here?
  339. # [18:34] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  340. # [18:34] <Midler> Sweden rocks?
  341. # [18:34] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-251-103.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  342. # [18:34] <Midler> :P
  343. # [18:34] * eighty4 votes for transforming this into a swedish channel
  344. # [18:35] <gsnedders> eighty4: This is a WHATWG channel, browser guys are here, and Opera has an office in Sweden?
  345. # [18:35] <Midler> eighty4: well, for once its really hot in sweden
  346. # [18:35] <gsnedders> s/,/,hence /
  347. # [18:36] <eighty4> gsnedders: doesn't Opera have offices in other countries as well?
  348. # [18:36] <gsnedders> eighty4: Transforming it into a Swedish channel probably wouldn't work seeming half of us in Sweden in this channel don't speak Swedish
  349. # [18:36] <eighty4> Midler: and I have to stay inside, it's around 30* in here...
  350. # [18:36] <gsnedders> eighty4: Yeah, sure. But core is mainly in Oslo and Linköping
  351. # [18:36] <eighty4> didn't know :)
  352. # [18:37] <gsnedders> (I think)
  353. # [18:37] <eighty4> so Linköping actually have something
  354. # [18:37] <Midler> opera is a norweigan company as far as i know
  355. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Midler: Yeah
  356. # [18:37] <eighty4> yeah, that's what I've learnt as well
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  358. # [18:37] <Midler> But its not strange having an office in sweden, not atleast near linköping
  359. # [18:37] <Midler> as its near a university
  360. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Midler: Just by the railway station in the centre of Linköping :P
  361. # [18:38] <Midler> Iam not familiar with linköping
  362. # [18:38] * gsnedders got here on Friday evening :P
  363. # [18:39] <Midler> gsnedders: Have you bought anything in a store yet?
  364. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Midler: yes
  365. # [18:39] <Midler> Because in norway, you would need to multiply the price by 2 or 3
  366. # [18:39] <Midler> Than in sweden
  367. # [18:39] * gsnedders doesn't really care about Norway :P
  368. # [18:39] * Midler likes the mountains view in norway
  369. # [18:39] <Midler> But ive only been there once
  370. # [18:40] <Midler> When i was little
  371. # [18:40] <Midler> and it was not that fun to spend 3weeks of my weekly pocket money
  372. # [18:40] <Midler> :P
  373. # [18:41] * gsnedders has never been to Norway
  374. # [18:43] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepasse@p5B014CD5.dip.t-dialin.net)
  375. # [18:43] <eighty4> gsnedders: I would put my money on a "classic" swedish basement
  376. # [18:43] <eighty4> you should be able to use your key to get into it
  377. # [18:43] <gsnedders> Yes, I know there is a key for it.
  378. # [18:43] <gsnedders> I don't know where it is though :P
  379. # [18:43] <eighty4> the washer might now be in the same "house"
  380. # [18:44] <eighty4> Midler: Oslo is nice
  381. # [18:44] <eighty4> but it's way more expansive
  382. # [18:45] <Midler> eighty4: as ive say. Ive only been in norway once
  383. # [18:45] <Dashiva> There are so many Swedes working in Norway you might almost think it's in Sweden :P
  384. # [18:45] <Midler> When i was a child
  385. # [18:45] <Midler> The only thing i apreciated was the view
  386. # [18:45] <Midler> However, being a child
  387. # [18:45] <Midler> Norway was really booring
  388. # [18:45] <Midler> It was a sunday
  389. # [18:45] <Midler> and nothing was open
  390. # [18:46] <Midler> And smal thing such icecream ruined me =(
  391. # [18:46] <eighty4> Dashiva: it _was_ sweden once
  392. # [18:46] <Midler> But i guess norway is fine yes
  393. # [18:46] <Midler> eighty4: yeah, decades ago...
  394. # [18:47] <Dashiva> Sweden was just a rebound after getting out of that abuse relationship with Denmark
  395. # [18:52] <eighty4> Midler: yeah yeah :)
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  398. # [18:58] <Philip`> Hixie: \x1B$@<meta/\x1B(B charset=utf-8 x="<meta charset=iso-2022-jp>">
  399. # [18:58] <Philip`> (where "\x1B" is the byte 0x1B)
  400. # [19:00] <Philip`> Decoding as UTF-8 gives charset=utf-8, decoding as ISO-2022-JP gives charset=iso-2022-jp, and ISO-2022-* looks like it would be considered "ASCII compatible" because all the normal characters (everything except 0x1B) are mapped identically to ASCII
  401. # [19:04] <Philip`> The charset johab/cp1361 (http://www.fileformat.info/info/charset/x-Johab/list.htm) might have similar problems, since ß is encoded as 0xDD 0x3C
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  406. # [19:39] <Philip`> ISO-2022 is great fun
  407. # [19:39] <Philip`> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%E9%B9%BF%E5%A1%A2%E6%AF%80%E8%BB%A2%E9%A6%96%E7%AB%B0%E8%9C%B7%E5%9D%8F%20src=data:text/plain,alert(123)//&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-jp
  408. # [19:40] <Philip`> View that in a browser that doesn't support iso-2022, or manually switch the encoding to iso-8859-1
  409. # [19:40] <Philip`> Unfortunately all the browsers I tested do support iso-2022 :-(
  410. # [19:40] <eighty4> "123"
  411. # [19:40] <Philip`> but anyway it's a bit of an XSS hole
  412. # [19:54] <hsivonen> just pushed the HTML5 parser into mozilla-central preffed off. Hoping everything is ok...
  413. # [19:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  414. # [20:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  415. # [20:12] <Philip`> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%EC%84%9E%E7%87%89%E4%B9%AD%ED%83%91%EC%88%8D%E8%A8%8A%E6%98%B1%E7%A6%BF%E5%88%B7%E5%A5%84%E5%89%94%EA%B5%89%EB%82%91%EC%84%9E%E6%98%8C%E4%BE%84%E5%BE%9E%EC%97%86&ei=UTF-8&eo=iso-2022-kr
  416. # [20:12] <Philip`> View that in Chrome on Windows
  417. # [20:12] <Philip`> and then it runs the script by default
  418. # [20:13] <Philip`> (Chrome 2.0.173.33 in particular)
  419. # [20:13] <Philip`> I hope this counts as a legitimate XSS vulnerability now
  420. # [20:13] <Philip`> only I've got no idea who to report it to
  421. # [20:13] <Philip`> so I'll just complain about it in here instead
  422. # [20:15] <Philip`> Hixie: I guess ISO-2022 should be forbidden/discouraged for the same security reasons as UTF-7 and EBCDIC
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  430. # [21:05] <Midler> will it be possible to place for example div tag within video tag?
  431. # [21:05] <takkaria> as fallback for browsers which don't support <video>, yes
  432. # [21:06] <Midler> ok
  433. # [21:07] <Midler> iam just thinking of youtube that has "comments/links" withing the movie. I though of doing the same with div.
  434. # [21:08] <Midler> But its to use layers then
  435. # [21:08] <gsnedders> takkaria: How long did it take you to get to the lake?
  436. # [21:08] <Dashiva> Can you use video with imagemaps?
  437. # [21:10] <takkaria> gsnedders: well, my bike back wheel was flat when I got the canal
  438. # [21:10] <takkaria> so I walked
  439. # [21:10] <takkaria> I have no idea how long it was
  440. # [21:11] <gsnedders> heh
  441. # [21:11] <takkaria> I got back to my bike at 8pm, but I spent a fair bit of time at the lake napping or taking photos on the way
  442. # [21:12] * gsnedders ended up more or less falling asleep at 5pm, oddly
  443. # [21:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is about 5km from the town centre to the lake
  444. # [21:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: I know taht
  445. # [21:13] <jgraham> Which is just over an hours walk
  446. # [21:16] <gsnedders> I tend to walk slower in the heat though, so probably a bit more than that for me
  447. # [21:17] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  448. # [21:20] <takkaria> apparently today I have taken some exceptionally wonky photos
  449. # [21:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: So does everyone I guess
  450. # [21:21] <gsnedders> takkaria: I seem to have done that over the past week too :(
  451. # [21:21] * jgraham has lots of photos that he should, or should not, upload
  452. # [21:21] <Midler> If i want to get the state of the video with javascript (example: stopped, playing, paused ect). Where can i find it?
  453. # [21:21] <takkaria> and also lots of pictures which are the pictoral qequivalent of me going "wow! big expanse of flat, uninteresting land"
  454. # [21:21] <takkaria> which at the time I was obviously quite excited by, but I'm not so sure why now
  455. # [21:22] <gsnedders> :)
  456. # [21:22] <gsnedders> It is somewhat impressive quite how big the expanses of flat uninteresting land are though.
  457. # [21:23] <Midler> Iam thinking. If i dont like the custom controls or i want to use my own controls. I could do so with placing divs within the video overlayed. And with javascript activate and change blablabal..
  458. # [21:23] <takkaria> yeah, hard to capture with a 50mm lens though
  459. # [21:23] <takkaria> Midler: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#dom-media-paused
  460. # [21:23] <gsnedders> takkaria: You have 350D, right?
  461. # [21:23] <takkaria> gsnedders: aye
  462. # [21:23] <Midler> takkaria: thanks
  463. # [21:24] <gsnedders> takkaria: This is when the 10–22mm comes into use :P
  464. # [21:24] <takkaria> Midler: and the surrounding section
  465. # [21:24] <Midler> mm, i will find
  466. # [21:24] <jgraham> I have lots of photos that are the pictoral equivalent of "I got the wrong camera settings. Again."
  467. # [21:24] <Midler> I just thought of making my own controls
  468. # [21:24] * takkaria grins jgraham
  469. # [21:25] * gsnedders is tempted to get one of the Sigma fisheyes designed for APS-C sized sensor cameras
  470. # [21:25] * jgraham is tempted to get many things but can't afford most of them
  471. # [21:25] * gsnedders tends to be too conservative and boring to run into that often
  472. # [21:26] <Dashiva> Sure is deja vu on public-html lately
  473. # [21:29] <takkaria> isn't it always?
  474. # [21:29] <Philip`> It wasn't the first time each issue was discussed
  475. # [21:30] <Philip`> but after the second and third and fourth etc times, it does get a little tedious
  476. # [21:32] <tantek> Perhaps if the issues were captured and resolved on a wiki with permalinks, they could be quickly dismissed with URLs to those permalinks when brought up the second and third and fourth times (or at least new information could be added instead of rehashing).
  477. # [21:32] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-better-than-email
  478. # [21:34] <Dashiva> I don't think it's lack of knowledge that's the main problem
  479. # [21:35] * Philip` thinks the volume of communication (email and IRC and blog posts and blog comments and ...) is high enough that it's unreasonable to expect people to follow it all, and one can't expect them to not repeat earlier discussions unless there's a brief summary they can refer to to see that it's been said before
  480. # [21:35] <Dashiva> More of a "They don't agree with me yet, they must've missed it the previous time, so I'll just say it again until it works"
  481. # [21:36] <Dashiva> (From all sides involved)
  482. # [21:41] <Hixie> Philip`: the key is can you make it valid in both encodings. those examples all have at least one conformance error (e.g. unknown attributes) in at least one of the encodings.
  483. # [21:41] <Philip`> Hixie: So it has to be conforming HTML, not just a valid byte sequence in the given encoding?
  484. # [21:41] <Hixie> right
  485. # [21:42] <Hixie> Philip`: the point is to highlight these issues to authors
  486. # [21:42] <Hixie> Philip`: so if the author gets a conformance error, that's enough
  487. # [21:42] <Hixie> imho
  488. # [21:43] <Hixie> i've made 2022 discouraged like utf-32 and ebcdic
  489. # [21:43] <Hixie> i understand it's actually used quite widely, at least for e-mail and maybe for web
  490. # [21:43] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org) (SendQ exceeded)
  491. # [21:44] <Hixie> Philip`: i also tweaked the text to make utf8+names not ascii-compatible
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  494. # [21:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: btw, you probably don't want your classes and so forth to have the "5" in their name
  495. # [21:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: the nsHtml5 prefix is supposed to go away
  496. # [21:47] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@atekomi.inimino.org)
  497. # [21:47] <Hixie> k
  498. # [21:47] <hsivonen> so as it happened, I was too much of a newbie with hg to do the landing right and now more experienced people are cleaning up the mess I caused
  499. # [21:48] <Hixie> :-/
  500. # [21:48] <takkaria> oh, you're landing it on trunk?
  501. # [21:48] <takkaria> cool
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  504. # [21:55] <Philip`> Hixie: Is <meta charset=&quot;utf-8>+names"> conforming (in both encodings)?
  505. # [21:56] <Philip`> It doesn't have any unrecognised attributes now, unless I'm being stupid
  506. # [21:57] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#charset-iso-2022-jp - hmm, that seems to be used quite a bit
  507. # [21:57] <Hixie> utf-8+names isn't ascii-compatible
  508. # [21:57] <Hixie> so <meta charset can't be used with it
  509. # [21:57] <Hixie> in a conforming page
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  512. # [21:58] <Philip`> I thought the idea was to have an example that justifies the inclusion of that ASCII-compatibility requirement
  513. # [21:59] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-112.dynamic.amis.net)
  514. # [21:59] <Philip`> so it just needs to conform to all other requirements
  515. # [21:59] <Hixie> no the idea is to have an example that justifies changing the encoding sniffer to bail as soon as it hits a byte sequence that might screw things up
  516. # [22:00] <Hixie> or changing the ASCII-compatibility requirements to exclude even ascii bytes in later parts of multibyte sequences
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  518. # [22:09] <Philip`> Hixie: Hmm, what about <meta charset=\x0Eutf8>x\x0Fiso2022kr>
  519. # [22:09] <Philip`> which is also <meta charset=朮歷없iso2022kr>
  520. # [22:10] <Hixie> how is that valid in 2022?
  521. # [22:11] <Philip`> 0x0E and 0x0F are escape codes in iso-2022-kr (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1557)
  522. # [22:11] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus_
  523. # [22:12] <Philip`> Oh, I suppose there's the problem that 朮歷없iso2022kr isn't the preferred name for that encoding
  524. # [22:12] <Hixie> right
  525. # [22:12] <Hixie> or any name for it as far as i can tell
  526. # [22:13] <Philip`> I thought anything [^a-zA-Z0-9] gets stripped when comparing names
  527. # [22:13] <Hixie> hm i guess it would compare correctly, yeah
  528. # [22:13] <Hixie> but it's still not valid
  529. # [22:13] <gsnedders> takkaria: http://www.flickr.com/photos/takkaria/3668544285/ — Now I'm not sure it is worth it.
  530. # [22:13] <Hixie> it's also not valid in UTF-8, is it?
  531. # [22:14] <Hixie> U+000E is a parse error
  532. # [22:14] <Hixie> i'm glad you're having as much trouble as i was with this
  533. # [22:14] <Hixie> makes me feel like i'm not a moron :-)
  534. # [22:14] <Hixie> and btw these encodings are insane
  535. # [22:15] <takkaria> gsnedders: I'm guessing it's more fun if you actually get to the lakeside, but I didn't because I wasn't quite sure how far down the road the lakeside was
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  542. # [22:31] <Philip`> Hixie: If you want the document to be valid UTF-8 then it can't contain any non-whitespace bytes < 0x20, so it seems impossible to do anything interesting with any ISO-2022-* encodings, so I suppose that's a lost cause
  543. # [22:32] <Hixie> k
  544. # [22:32] <Philip`> (unless I'm wrong)
  545. # [22:32] <Hixie> that's more or less the conclusion i drew too
  546. # [22:32] <Hixie> i was playing with comments to hide some of the bytes, but yeah, even that wouldn't hide 0x1B.
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  562. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Oh well, time to sleep, I think. See some of you tomorrow.
  563. # [23:43] <takkaria> ~
  564. # [23:43] <gsnedders> takkaria: a tilde? :\
  565. # [23:43] <takkaria> it's a wave
  566. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Oh, OK
  567. # [23:44] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-193-110.bredband.comhem.se)
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  569. # Session Close: Mon Jun 29 00:00:00 2009

The end :)