/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-06 / end

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  40. # [04:38] <Hixie> i need a complicated but small table for summary="" stuff
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  114. # [11:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: "if an old draft" -> "of an old draft"
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  116. # [11:55] <Hixie> well
  117. # [11:55] <Hixie> shockingly, it seems no two browsers interoperate on the meaning of history.back().
  118. # [11:55] <Hixie> i would never have guessed that
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  120. # [12:01] <takkaria> excellent
  121. # [12:01] <takkaria> given that it's used all over the place, that's quite surprising
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  123. # [12:10] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/
  124. # [12:11] <Hixie> i'm gonna spec IE's behaviour
  125. # [12:11] <Hixie> (since the spec doesn't match anyone currently)
  126. # [12:15] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  127. # [12:17] * gsnedders stretches and heads for lunch, if anyone wants to join him
  128. # [12:17] <Lachy_> Hixie, why do the tests need to be cached and run again? I just tried them in Opera and Firefox and got the same result both times each test was run in each browser
  129. # [12:25] <Hixie> if you're on a slow connection you'll get unreliable results if you don't let them get cached first.
  130. # [12:29] <Lachy_> ok. I'm on a fast conncetion, so didn't affect me
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  136. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: typo fixed. thanks
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  138. # [14:03] <Lachy> hsivonen, for the question "What’s the doctype for XHTML5 documents?" you might want to mention that <!DOCTYPE html> is also a well-formed DOCTYPE that can be used for the purpose of producing a polyglot document
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  141. # [14:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't want to encourage people to write polyglot documents
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  143. # [14:07] <Lachy> ok
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  146. # [14:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Nice FAQ. Any progress on being syndicated on planet.mozilla? Your blog deserves more exposure...
  147. # [14:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: planet is bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=502224
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  149. # [14:22] <jgraham> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/629043 and following are quite interesting
  150. # [14:23] <jgraham> (and we got a patch out of it too, which I haven't really looked at hard yet but shows that at least some of the people are awesome some of the time)
  151. # [14:34] <gsnedders> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2009-July/718802.html saner archives
  152. # [14:34] <gsnedders> (like, with next message links)
  153. # [14:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: Ah. Useful. I wonder hy gmane sucks so much
  154. # [14:35] <jgraham> *why
  155. # [14:35] <gsnedders> From that original post, I guess I probably ought to read the thread sometime (but I guess not now :))
  156. # [14:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: if you want more perf, I suggest splitting up the data state the way it's split in the V.nu tokenizer
  157. # [14:43] <Dashiva> Link to hsivonen's FAQ?
  158. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Dashiva: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xhtml2-html5-q-and-a/
  159. # [14:44] <Dashiva> Thanks
  160. # [14:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: How is that?
  161. # [14:45] * jgraham actually wants a non-broken trunk more than perf right now
  162. # [14:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: you don't need to check the content model flag per character if you bake the content model flag into the tokenizer state
  163. # [14:45] <jgraham> Oh so you have dataStateCdata and dataStateRcdata and so on?
  164. # [14:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah
  165. # [14:46] <gsnedders> I know that in the PHP impl. that the PHP DOM extension (which is written in C) is the bottleneck for medium to large HTML documents!
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  167. # [14:54] <hsivonen> gsnedders: what kind of storage does it use for the children of an element?
  168. # [14:55] <gsnedders> hsivonen: One with non-constant perf. characteristics. More exactly, I don't know.
  169. # [14:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
  170. # [15:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Well, actually, accessing it I think is constant, but appendChild is non-constant
  171. # [15:00] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it seems to me that you want linked lists of siblings and child arrays are bad
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  173. # [15:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, myself and ezyang were intending on trying to write something quicker, though for distributability purposes we need something that runs in interpreted code, so it'll be fun if we get that running quicker than the DOM extension in C
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  175. # [15:04] <gsnedders> IIRC it's based upon a very old gdome
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  178. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you there? got a problem with v.nu update
  179. # [15:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm here
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  181. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm rebuilding now to see if I can reproduce it
  182. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> maybe same problem that David Eisenberg reported
  183. # [15:27] <hsivonen> the classcast exception can usually be remedied by rerunning python build/build.py all
  184. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: this may be a different error
  185. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm re-running now
  186. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> yeah, this seems different
  187. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> hang on, I'll post the log
  188. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://people.w3.org/mike/v.nu/build-log.txt
  189. # [15:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. I may have broken the tree by failing to commit all local changes
  190. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that's what I suspected might be the case
  191. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> easy thing to do
  192. # [15:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: try updating now
  193. # [15:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry
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  195. # [15:34] * MikeSmith retries
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  198. # [15:38] <hsivonen> http://paulmwatson.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/im-finding-the-technical-vs-mar/
  199. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for the checkin -- working as expected now
  200. # [15:46] <Dashiva> "I use XHTML because it simply feels good."
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  203. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> words have failed, I guess we need to start drawing pictures
  204. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> maybe somebody could do a comic strip
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  206. # [15:52] <Dashiva> The earlier post repeats the "mobile devices are too weak to parse HTML, and XHTML is much easier to parse" story
  207. # [15:52] <hsivonen> oh I forgot to have a Q and A about that
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  214. # [16:14] <Lachy> hsivonen, are there any issues you're aware of with the html5.enable pref not showing up in the Linux build of the Firefox nightlies?
  215. # [16:14] <jgraham> Lachy: wfm (but you can create the pref if it doesn't exist already)
  216. # [16:14] <Lachy> I don't have Linux myself, but someone here at work wanted to try it and apparently, the pref isn't available for him
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  218. # [16:15] <Lachy> jgraham, yeah, that's what I said to do on the internal discussion list
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  225. # [16:38] <jgraham> http://simonwillison.net/2009/Jul/6/xhtml/#c47115 appears to be an "interestingly" phrased Firefox bug report
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  231. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think dude must be using the "Convert glyphs into boxes with little numbers inside them" extension for Firefox
  232. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> I think it's one of the developer features
  233. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see, he complaint is that the little-number-boxes with lines underneath them should be a slightly different shade of blue than the one they show up in
  234. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> and he has a point there -- the blue not quite right
  235. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> so, good eye, John Handelaar
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  237. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> a lot of people don't catch those kind of subtleties
  238. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> it takes a real pro, like him
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  246. # [17:27] <gsnedders> eighty4: you were saying before about coming around this evening to pick up your stuff. still got any intention of doing so?
  247. # [17:30] * jgraham assumes gsnedders just wants help finding the washing machine
  248. # [17:30] * gsnedders would like to deny that, but it is in part true
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  250. # [17:31] <gsnedders> One way or another, this _will_ end tonight.
  251. # [17:31] <gsnedders> (I expect that's a misquote, though…)
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  253. # [17:34] <Dashiva> It's a bit funny seeing people go "This is silly, surely we'll be working on HTML8 before 2022" seeing as how HTML4 was over a decade ago. Why the sudden change in expectancies :)
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  255. # [17:35] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Is "Unnofficial" typoed on purpose?
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  271. # [18:52] <eighty4> gsnedders: is it ok if I do it tomorrow?
  272. # [18:52] <eighty4> gsnedders: I'm a bit tired :)
  273. # [18:52] <eighty4> gsnedders: and I can help you find the washing machine tomorrow :)
  274. # [18:53] <eighty4> I'm free all day!
  275. # [18:53] <eighty4> absolutly free! I have nothing at all to do
  276. # [18:53] * eighty4 hides in the corner...
  277. # [18:53] <eighty4> having nothing to do is scary
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  281. # [19:14] <Dashiva> No matter how much data against @summary is discredited, I think jarring that there's absolutely no data (regardless of credibility) in favor of it
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  288. # [19:23] <gsnedders_> eighty4: yeah, I guess
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  291. # [19:24] <gsnedders> hmm, oh well, if me at work does want to persist, then so be it.
  292. # [19:25] <gsnedders> eighty4: Also, see Habari #580 for something to do :P
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  294. # [19:27] <eighty4> oh, ETags :)
  295. # [19:27] <gsnedders> That's take a fair amount of work to impl. well :)
  296. # [19:27] <eighty4> gsnedders: you're working tomorrow?
  297. # [19:27] <gsnedders> eighty4: yeah
  298. # [19:28] <eighty4> then just let me know in here when you'll be home
  299. # [19:28] <gsnedders> eighty4: I could even let you know when I leave the office, or when I arrive at the office :P
  300. # [19:29] <eighty4> I'll be in here and/or in #habari most of the day.
  301. # [19:30] <gsnedders> As you've probably noticed, I'm not in #habari at work
  302. # [19:30] <eighty4> I might walk out to IKEA or something but that'll be in the morning
  303. # [19:31] <eighty4> no, haven't noticed that :) I'm not actually active in any channels durin working hours
  304. # [19:31] <gsnedders> I'm just not in them :)
  305. # [19:32] <gsnedders> (I am here, but this is vaguely work related)
  306. # [19:32] <eighty4> it's very work related
  307. # [19:32] <eighty4> :)
  308. # [19:33] <eighty4> I have cheez doodles
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  324. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0907060805240.1053@hixie.dreamhostps.com — with what locale? :P
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  338. # [21:13] <tantek> gsnedders, Hixie - I still think a "vote" on a specific feature sets a bad precedent. science isn't democracy.
  339. # [21:14] <gsnedders> tantek: I was more attempting to make a joke
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  351. # [21:53] <smedero> hrm. can someone remind me why I would get an "unexpected-doctype" exception in html5lib.
  352. # [21:54] <smedero> (for some reason I thought it didn't give a crap about the doctype...)
  353. # [21:54] <gsnedders> smedero: Because it's not at the start of the document. But as an exception?
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  355. # [21:56] <sayrer_> I actually don't want a vote either
  356. # [21:57] <smedero> I should say it was a html5lib.html5parser.ParseError
  357. # [21:57] <smedero> @gsnedders but yes, that makes sense.
  358. # [21:57] <sayrer_> I doesn't seem like anything has changed from a technical perspective
  359. # [21:57] <sayrer_> It doesn't
  360. # [21:58] <gsnedders> My computer doesn't think 1 + 1 = 2 anymore?
  361. # [21:58] * gsnedders goes back to less useful stuff :P
  362. # [21:58] <sayrer_> how does it do on 5 > 2
  363. # [21:58] <gsnedders> False. Maybe it has a virus or something.
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  365. # [22:00] <Hixie> tantek: i agree, but sam hasn't put forward any other suggestions for how to resolve this, and he refuses to make an actual determination himself
  366. # [22:04] <tantek> Hixie, from briefly reading the recent email thread that gsnedders linked to, it appeared that there was *some* progress being made in the level of dialog (more scientific) with regards to the methodology of analysis of summary.
  367. # [22:05] <gsnedders> tantek: I think what progress there is is minimal.
  368. # [22:05] <sayrer_> gsnedders: yes, nothing seems to warrant a line item vote on the matter
  369. # [22:05] <sayrer_> that is supposed to be a last resort at the w3c
  370. # [22:06] <gsnedders> Basically I don't think we're going to get much more compromise from either side, and I think we're more or less stuck, with the arguments going round in circles.
  371. # [22:07] <sayrer_> I don't think we're stuck
  372. # [22:07] <sayrer_> just stop answering emails about it
  373. # [22:07] <sayrer_> then we're not stuck
  374. # [22:08] <gsnedders> I haven't answered any emails about it almost a year ago :P
  375. # [22:08] <gsnedders> s/haven't/stopped/
  376. # [22:08] * jgraham wonders how that makes us less suck
  377. # [22:08] <jgraham> *stuck
  378. # [22:08] <tantek> gnsedders - I disagree - specifically, Shelley's recent message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0152.html has a good tone and a reasonable listing of concerns with the methodology of analysis of summary. At a minimum, those concerns could (should) be documented on a wiki page, and then addressed.
  379. # [22:09] <sayrer_> jgraham: well, we are stuck if you are wed to making the attributes lack of success result in a conformance error
  380. # [22:10] <tantek> gsnedders - in addition, framing the debate as "from either side" unnecessarily harms the ability for all sides to make scientific progress on various possibilities by polarizing the issue.
  381. # [22:11] <tantek> gsnedders, you're right about being stuck in circles due to it being discussed in email. if you capture the issues and follow-ups in a wiki page, it becomes much easier to represent loops and duplicates (via hyperlinks) than in email.
  382. # [22:12] <gsnedders> tantek: I think we went through stuff like what Shelley's message is about at TPAC last year with PF, though, and within a few weeks the arguments were back to what they were before that meeting
  383. # [22:12] <tantek> gsnedders - so why weren't those points recorded on a wiki then so they could be properly assessed? (rather than being repeated in email)
  384. # [22:13] <jgraham> sayrer_: So your proposition is "accept my point of view and the arguments will go away"?
  385. # [22:13] <gsnedders> tantek: I think because nobody has bothered to put them on the wiki.
  386. # [22:14] <jgraham> tantek: We have a wiki page. Is is hardly fair and balanced and attempts to make it so would unlikely go down well
  387. # [22:14] <sayrer_> jgraham: so you do think it is really important to have it result in a conformance error?
  388. # [22:14] <sayrer_> like, life or death, technical showstopper?
  389. # [22:14] <gsnedders> It would be a lot easier if we just made no comment about what was conforming :P
  390. # [22:15] <tantek> jgraham - Wikipedia has had to deal with far worse conflicts than this, by recording multiple points of view (and arguments for/against), and has done so. So I disagree with your assessment that it is "unlikely [to] go down well" - offering Wikipedia conflict documentation as evidence.
  391. # [22:15] <sayrer_> well, that is a proposal I intend to make, but we needn't go whole hog there to resolve this specific issue
  392. # [22:15] <sayrer_> the author conformance requirements have a variety of motivations
  393. # [22:15] <sayrer_> and they are inconsistently applied
  394. # [22:17] <jgraham> tantek: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE (note also http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE?action=info)
  395. # [22:17] <gsnedders> I think from a syntax point of view, conformance should be what produces an obvious DOM tree and the subset of the spec's algorithm and what works in legacy UAs
  396. # [22:17] <sayrer_> legacy UAs aren't html5-conformant
  397. # [22:17] <sayrer_> not remotely
  398. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Indeed, but there is a subset of input that is parsed the same.
  399. # [22:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think there are significant reasons not to bloat the markup language with all the old, failed, ideas
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  402. # [22:18] <sayrer_> jgraham: what are those reasons?
  403. # [22:19] <sayrer_> I am honestly curious
  404. # [22:19] <sayrer_> I don't see these attributes being reclaimed for other purposes soon
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  407. # [22:20] <jgraham> sayrer_: It increases the language surface that authors will encounter. There is value in "there whould be one and only one obvious way to do it"
  408. # [22:21] <sayrer_> that is a very subjective area to venture into, but I agree it is a legitimate concern
  409. # [22:21] <tantek> jgraham - that wiki page certainly has a lot of good documentation, but does little to address follow-ups of the points made.
  410. # [22:23] <tantek> jgraham - I agree with you about minimizing the "language surface that authors will encounter" - I've been referring to that as the principle of minimal vocabulary and have documented it as a microformats design principle: http://microformats.org/wiki/minimal-vocabulary
  411. # [22:24] <tantek> in short, lower cognitive load which greatly helps ease of use (for authors and developers)
  412. # [22:25] <sayrer_> a counter example might be presentational elements
  413. # [22:26] <sayrer_> since those let authors do simple formatting without learning CSS
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  415. # [22:29] <takkaria> I've tried editing various wiki pages on the w3c
  416. # [22:29] <takkaria> I seem to recall a couple of edits being reverted staright away
  417. # [22:29] <takkaria> at that point I gave up
  418. # [22:29] <gsnedders> takkaria: Well, you obviously aren't doing it right :P
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  424. # [22:38] <takkaria> I think it was around the time I bothered actively debating with Rob Burns
  425. # [22:38] <takkaria> I think I was editing a page he had some investment in
  426. # [22:38] <jgraham> tantek: I think that wiki page is very unbalanced e.g. it frames the issue as "why summary should not be provided vs why summary should be provided whilst the actual issue is about the most effective way to increase the accessibility of HTML tables
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  428. # [22:39] <jgraham> tantek: and my perception is that any edits I make that change existing content would be reverted
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  430. # [22:40] <jgraham> So there is no point in investing my limited time in making those changes
  431. # [22:40] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  432. # [22:41] <jgraham> (it is possible that I m wrong. However I think that other people have the same impression; the esw wiki is viewed as poisoned from the pov of HTML)
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  438. # [22:51] <smedero> I think there was one instance of an edit war on the ESW wiki between Lachlan and Laura... if memory serves. I believe Laura suggested it was a mistake... that she accidently clobbered Lachlan's updates.
  439. # [22:52] <smedero> *shrug* I find most of the wiki pages on there to be insanely difficult to parse.
  440. # [22:54] <jgraham> smedero: Agreed. Maybe that is one of the reasons I am so loathe to edit them; it is impossible to work out where to insert things and heavy refactoring would likely remove information that people were attached to
  441. # [22:54] <smedero> yep.
  442. # [22:54] <jgraham> We should make unit tests for the wiki page :)
  443. # [22:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are you going to get a intern to do that? :P
  444. # [22:56] <jgraham> (a series of statements that should be invariant under refactorings. Then we could replace the wiki page with the unit tests)
  445. # [22:56] <smedero> There was a suggested template structure... and people sorta stuck to it but then they misinterpreted the spirit of the headers... or perhaps... the average person doesn't share the same definition of "use case" that a software engineer has.
  446. # [22:58] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  447. # [23:01] <tantek> jgraham, then let me make the modest proposal of forking from the esw wiki, and copying any content relevant to HTML to the whatwg wiki, where the policies of the whatwg can be used to help encourage better community participation on the wiki.
  448. # [23:01] <jgraham> tantek: That seems like a reasonable idea
  449. # [23:03] <tantek> if Lachy has had trouble with his edits being reverted on the esw wiki, perhaps he might be able to help with such a migration to the whatwg wiki.
  450. # [23:04] <tantek> perhaps takkaria would similarly be interested in migrating to the whatwg wiki
  451. # [23:05] <Lachy> I gave up on the esw wiki based on edit wars with Rob Burns and, if smedero is right, Laura.
  452. # [23:06] <Lachy> I think the edit war with Laura was something about documenting use cases for video accessibility
  453. # [23:06] <Lachy> which is why I did document most of that on the whatwg wiki already
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  456. # [23:15] <takkaria> heh
  457. # [23:15] <takkaria> the idea of migrating to the whatwg wiki is all well and good
  458. # [23:15] <takkaria> but people who aren't involved with whatwg have in the past refused to deal with it
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  470. # [23:46] <tantek> takkaria - start citing the whatwg wiki in the Issues tracker. the more you make use of it, the more others will as well.
  471. # [23:50] * Joins: yshin (n=yshin@72.14.227.1)
  472. # [23:53] <Hixie> btw in case any edit wars turn up on the whatwg wiki - feel free to create whatever pages you want; if two people disagree about how a page should exist on the whatwg wiki, then fork it and both maintain an independent copy
  473. # [23:53] <Hixie> it's just a scratch space
  474. # [23:56] <tantek> Hixie - that's a good start for documenting multiple points of view.
  475. # [23:56] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-aca5a04e02421d84)
  476. # [23:56] <Lachy> Is there a page on the whatwg wiki documenting the summary issue?
  477. # [23:56] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
  478. # [23:57] <Hixie> christ, www-font makes public-html look positively friendly
  479. # [23:57] * Lachy goes to create a "Table Summary" page
  480. # [23:58] <Lachy> Hixie, do you recall what evidence the proponents for summary="" claim supports their position?
  481. # [23:59] <Lachy> The only thing I can think of is that the attribute is read out by default in some screen readers
  482. # [23:59] <Hixie> the PFWG has consensus on the idea that summary="" is successful
  483. # [23:59] <Lachy> yeah, but what's that consensus based on?
  484. # [23:59] <Lachy> maybe there's something in the esw wiki about it.
  485. # Session Close: Tue Jul 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)