/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-11 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  4. # [00:12] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  5. # [00:21] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  6. # [00:21] * cying_ is now known as cying
  7. # [00:34] <Dashiva> I can understand people who want to write a strict syntax (subset), but is there really anything stricter about using <br/> than <br>? If anything, it leaves you open to <br/> vs <br />
  8. # [00:35] <Dashiva> Could've saved a lot of trouble if people had talked about strict HTML rather than saddling it on XHTML
  9. # [00:37] <hober> indeed
  10. # [00:51] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  11. # [01:03] <tantek> Dashiva - back in the day, many of us *did* talk about strict valid semantic HTML.
  12. # [01:03] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-094e799f06deb7df)
  13. # [01:04] <tantek> but HTML by then had already earned too much of a "presentational" reputation, even among web designers, especially among programmers.
  14. # [01:04] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-be185d36b5aec01f)
  15. # [01:05] <tantek> XHTML 1.0 was an opportunity to present valid semantic HTML anew, and for the most part, it worked/works quite well.
  16. # [01:06] <tantek> eventually a lot of us started referring to good use of XHTML/HTML by the shorthand (X)HTML, which was sufficient to include those that really wanted to just use HTML4 really well.
  17. # [01:14] <tantek> Dashiva - here is a short list of minor advantages to using XHTML rather than HTML: http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030114t1345
  18. # [01:16] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  19. # [01:17] <Philip`> JavaScript variable scoping is great fun
  20. # [01:19] <Philip`> Hixie: What does the fourth column in the http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html table mean? (It seems to lack a column heading)
  21. # [01:19] <Hixie> fixed
  22. # [01:20] <Philip`> Ah, indeed
  23. # [01:20] <Philip`> It'd be nice if Opera didn't display the entire table before the canvas
  24. # [01:21] <Hixie> it shouldn't display the table at all
  25. # [01:21] <othermaciej> tantek: that was a reasonable list of reasons at the time - I think nowadays most of them have been addressed by HTML5 or just general market changes
  26. # [01:22] <Philip`> Hixie: I think it just totally fails to implement canvas child nodes correctly
  27. # [01:23] <tantek> HTML5 certainly goes a long way towards addressing them, and certainly the web authoring community has made very good progress in better use of semantic (X)HTML.
  28. # [01:23] <Philip`> It parses <canvas> kind of like <script> or something
  29. # [01:24] <tantek> othermaciej, the reliable input to XML tools however is still a non-trivial advantage. For example, two very common microformats tools, X2V and Optimus, are both written in XSLT.
  30. # [01:24] <Hixie> Philip`: odd
  31. # [01:24] <Hixie> Philip`: file a bug
  32. # [01:24] <tantek> if parsing a page fails as XML, then the tools run tidy on the page to "clean it up" before retrying
  33. # [01:25] <tantek> since tidy is known to overly clean things up (e.g. strip elements with no contents, even if they have class and title attribute), it's still better to published well formed XML via XHTML.
  34. # [01:26] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  35. # [01:26] <tantek> also performance, as obviously trying once is faster than trying twice with a tidy clean step in the middle.
  36. # [01:28] <othermaciej> tantek: I think html5lib and such are making that advantage less and less relevant
  37. # [01:28] <othermaciej> but sure, it might not be deployed in all the right places yet
  38. # [01:30] <tantek> othermaciej, I tend to agree, over time the magnitude of the advantage is likely to decrease due to tools like html5lib.
  39. # [01:30] <tantek> and yes, for now and the near future however, I can say it still very much makes a difference.
  40. # [01:31] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-64178f12f2b80384)
  41. # [01:31] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-310fc59502afba19)
  42. # [01:31] <tantek> frankly, it's turned out to make more of a difference (e.g. the microformats XSLT tools people wrote) than I expected it to when I wrote that blog post 6 years ago.
  43. # [01:31] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-faff34e432382c8e)
  44. # [01:32] <syp_> Hixie: is it safe to assume element.classList will need to be case insensitive in quirks mode?
  45. # [01:32] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  46. # [01:32] <Hixie> syp_: no
  47. # [01:32] <othermaciej> well - it's only an advantage for microformats XSLT tools in the case where people are using such tools on content they control
  48. # [01:32] <Hixie> syp_: it is not safe to assume that
  49. # [01:33] <syp_> hmm, ok
  50. # [01:33] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  51. # [01:33] <Hixie> syp_: it might be true, though; what does the spec say?
  52. # [01:33] <othermaciej> if tools like that need to be able to extract from anything on the web, then it's outright a bug in those tools that they use libtidy when faced with HTML instead of XHTML
  53. # [01:33] <syp_> Hixie: it doesn't say anything for the moment, so I guess it means case sensitive.
  54. # [01:33] <tantek> sure, they may switch to using html5lib instead of tidy over time
  55. # [01:33] <Hixie> syp_: k. That seems best.
  56. # [01:34] <Hixie> syp_: you can't be in quirks mode in a conforming doc anyway.
  57. # [01:34] <tantek> but even with that substitution, the performance difference will still exist. one process step vs. two process steps with a html5lib conversion in the middle.
  58. # [01:34] <Hixie> crap meeting gotta go
  59. # [01:34] <tantek> To be clear, I've never really had much hope for XML on the web. Extensibility and everyone making up their own vocabularies means less likelihood of communication (especially across time), not more.
  60. # [01:34] <tantek> Thus XML methodologies were kind of doomed from the start as far as an update to the basic communication format of the Web. Never mind the ridiculous "must fail" approach.
  61. # [01:34] <syp_> Hixie: ok thanks
  62. # [01:35] <tantek> s/ridiculous/impractical
  63. # [01:36] <syp_> Hixie: I saw some comments in the mailing list about that, and other parts of the spec where classes are handled in a case insensitive way, that's why I was wondering.
  64. # [01:36] <othermaciej> tantek: the downside risk to XHTML served as text/html is that there's no handy validator to tell you that your document is a correct chameleon document
  65. # [01:37] <tantek> othermaciej - the W3C validator does just fine.
  66. # [01:37] <othermaciej> so there's the risk of making something that will be misinterpreted depending on what tool is reading it
  67. # [01:37] <othermaciej> tantek: does it have a special "appendix C" mode?
  68. # [01:37] <tantek> it validates it as XHTML, even if served as text/html
  69. # [01:37] <othermaciej> validating as XHTML is not validating whether it means the same thing interpreted as HTML and XML
  70. # [01:38] <tantek> othermaciej - last I checked it hard *warnings* for Appendix C violations on XHTML 1.0 documents served as text/html.
  71. # [01:38] <tantek> s/hard/had
  72. # [01:38] <othermaciej> that's probably good enough
  73. # [01:38] <tantek> that's kind of what I figured too.
  74. # [01:39] <othermaciej> (only remaining risks would be to obscure script issues, but that's only an issue if serving to real browsers as both mime types, not so much to pure data processing tools)
  75. # [01:39] * Joins: Philip`_ (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk)
  76. # [01:39] <othermaciej> I hope validator.nu gets a chameleon checking mode even though I bet hsivonen hates the idea of chameleon documents
  77. # [01:39] <tantek> agreed. and it's impractical to serve anything but text/html to browsers.
  78. # [01:39] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4a7fe27785c06a26)
  79. # [01:40] <tantek> or rather, it's impractical to depend on "must fail" MIME types, e.g. serve application/xml(+*) to browsers.
  80. # [01:41] <tantek> othermaciej I for one like chameleon documents, and even code too.
  81. # [01:41] <tantek> see for example: http://tantek.pbworks.com/CassisProject
  82. # [01:42] <tantek> such chameleon documents/code typically have greater utility than either of the two single formats/languages on their own.
  83. # [01:44] <othermaciej> tantek: that's wild
  84. # [01:48] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  85. # [01:50] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  86. # [02:02] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-904447a9192f84fe)
  87. # [02:07] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-be185d36b5aec01f)
  88. # [02:16] * Quits: yshin (n=yshin@72.14.227.1)
  89. # [02:16] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-faff34e432382c8e)
  90. # [02:19] * Quits: jianli (n=jianli@72.14.227.1)
  91. # [02:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.208)
  92. # [02:27] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  93. # [02:30] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-1c17869f5b58acae)
  94. # [02:32] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  95. # [02:47] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-f721f4ad2fbdb03d) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  96. # [02:57] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  97. # [02:57] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  98. # [03:19] * Joins: Guest88730 (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  99. # [03:28] * Quits: atwilson (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  100. # [03:29] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  101. # [03:31] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  102. # [03:33] * Quits: jennb (n=jennb@72.14.227.1)
  103. # [03:34] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.18.9)
  104. # [03:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-51-171-22.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  105. # [03:48] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B017EDD.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  106. # [03:53] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  107. # [03:55] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@222-152-162-6.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  108. # [04:06] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-167-184.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  109. # [04:12] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  110. # [04:29] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  111. # [04:32] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-1c17869f5b58acae)
  112. # [04:33] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-b67b2f6533757efb) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1pre/20090710031446]")
  113. # [04:35] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  114. # [04:36] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Client Quit)
  115. # [04:44] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  116. # [04:50] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  117. # [04:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  118. # [05:20] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  119. # [05:27] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  120. # [05:30] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  121. # [05:30] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  122. # [05:31] * Joins: abii (n=macbook@cm27.delta30.maxonline.com.sg)
  123. # [05:40] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  124. # [05:40] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) (Remote closed the connection)
  125. # [06:03] <abii> lol, no one uses hte #webapps channel?
  126. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> abii: what's the #webapps channel?
  127. # [06:14] <abii> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/
  128. # [06:29] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3126-ipbf1106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  129. # [06:40] * Joins: auk (n=scott@cpe-75-83-19-98.socal.res.rr.com)
  130. # [06:46] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-197-150.bredband.comhem.se)
  131. # [06:48] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  132. # [07:27] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  133. # [07:35] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  134. # [07:40] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  135. # [07:41] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  136. # [07:42] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  137. # [07:56] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3126-ipbf1106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  138. # [07:59] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  139. # [08:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-51-171-22.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  140. # [08:04] * Quits: auk (n=scott@cpe-75-83-19-98.socal.res.rr.com) (Success)
  141. # [08:14] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  142. # [08:17] * Joins: auk (n=scott@cpe-75-83-19-98.socal.res.rr.com)
  143. # [08:19] * Joins: gmaxwell (n=gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001)
  144. # [08:24] * Parts: gmaxwell (n=gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001) ("Leaving")
  145. # [08:25] * Joins: gmaxwell (n=gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001)
  146. # [08:31] <gmaxwell> I see that Till Halbach's dirac/theora/h264 comparison was mentioned. Beyond the point about it being old, three independent parties have been unable to reproduce his results using the same software versions. While H.264 and dirac numbers have good agreement, his theora numbers are ~15dB lower than anyone else gets (on Akiyo, for example). In spite of this he has been unwilling to check his measurements or post any notes on this point. T
  147. # [08:31] <gmaxwell> his is further supported by his example image: http://etill.net/projects/dirac_theora_evaluation/include/visual_comparison.png The sequence being original, dirac at 67kbit/sec, theora at 18kbit/sec, h264 at 17kbit/sec, while the charts theora is show as something like 10dB worse than the dirac which is clearly not the case from the example. ::shrugs:: Take that for what you will.
  148. # [08:34] <gmaxwell> As far as the prior comments about what I sent to youtube— The provided upload limits and supported formats constrained my choices. The MJPEG was the best I they appeared to accept, and anything larger would have interacted poorly with the upload size cap. The Theora and Youtube started from the same input. ::shrugs:: But if you're worried about points like this you've missed the point of the comparison, it was intended to be an ord
  149. # [08:34] <gmaxwell> er of magnitude kind of thing. A detailed comparison would require many kinds of input, etc.
  150. # [08:35] <gmaxwell> And would have been an enormous amount of work, which I can't justify spending my time on because the people I work with would never consider using H.264 in any case due to the licensing.
  151. # [08:35] <gmaxwell> Cheers.
  152. # [08:35] * Quits: gmaxwell (n=gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001) ("Leaving")
  153. # [08:51] * Joins: poe (n=poe@adsl-ull-160-123.48-151.net24.it)
  154. # [08:53] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  155. # [08:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: thoughts on weather?
  156. # [09:05] * Quits: sayrer__ (n=chatzill@user-0cceh2r.cable.mindspring.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  157. # [09:11] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  158. # [09:11] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-95-60.dyn.iinet.net.au) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  159. # [09:11] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  160. # [09:11] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  161. # [09:11] * Quits: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  162. # [09:11] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  163. # [09:11] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  164. # [09:11] * Quits: cwilper (n=cwilper@74-44-156-57.dsl1-erie.roch.ny.frontiernet.net) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  165. # [09:12] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.co.uk)
  166. # [09:13] * Joins: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  167. # [09:13] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-95-60.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  168. # [09:13] * Joins: cwilper (n=cwilper@74-44-156-57.dsl1-erie.roch.ny.frontiernet.net)
  169. # [09:13] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  170. # [09:13] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  171. # [09:13] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  172. # [09:13] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  173. # [09:13] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@58.138.63.68)
  174. # [09:14] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  175. # [09:14] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  176. # [09:15] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-95-60.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  177. # [09:15] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-95-60.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  178. # [09:16] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  179. # [09:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just spoke to G+A decided it is too wet to risk
  180. # [09:16] <jgraham> takkaria: ^
  181. # [09:30] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  182. # [09:32] <gsnedders> abii: #webapps on irc.w3.org:80 is used, though
  183. # [09:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222-152-164-234.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  184. # [09:54] * Joins: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  185. # [09:55] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@ppp-70-226-91-20.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  186. # [10:03] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-164-234.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  187. # [10:05] * gsnedders waves at takkaria ?
  188. # [10:05] * Joins: poe_ (n=poe@151.57.252.141)
  189. # [10:08] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@222-152-162-6.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  190. # [10:10] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  191. # [10:21] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  192. # [10:32] * Quits: poe_ (n=poe@151.57.252.141)
  193. # [10:35] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  194. # [10:45] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  195. # [11:00] * Quits: auk (n=scott@cpe-75-83-19-98.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  196. # [11:05] * Parts: drry (n=drry@mc169.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  197. # [11:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-210162009085.hotspot.ne.jp)
  198. # [11:23] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-197-150.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  199. # [11:23] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-197-150.bredband.comhem.se)
  200. # [11:26] * Joins: poe (n=poe@151.57.252.141)
  201. # [11:31] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  202. # [11:44] <gsnedders> Does DOMReady work in IE? I guess not
  203. # [11:57] * Quits: Guest88730 (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  204. # [11:58] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  205. # [11:59] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  206. # [11:59] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@58.138.63.68) ("Leaving...")
  207. # [12:06] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z978d.z.pppool.de)
  208. # [12:12] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust747.brnt.cable.ntl.com)
  209. # [12:27] * Joins: ZombieL (n=e@c80-217-235-198.bredband.comhem.se)
  210. # [12:33] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (n=e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (Connection timed out)
  211. # [12:36] * gsnedders wonders if he leaves now when he'll get to jgraham's
  212. # [12:46] * Joins: drostie_ (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  213. # [12:47] * Quits: drostie_ (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  214. # [12:50] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  215. # [12:53] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  216. # [13:05] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net)
  217. # [13:06] * Joins: roc (n=roc@222-152-162-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  218. # [13:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-210162009085.hotspot.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  219. # [13:27] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  220. # [13:29] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  221. # [13:37] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@hdh-1-pt.tunnel.tserv20.hkg1.ipv6.he.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  222. # [13:39] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  223. # [13:40] * Joins: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug)
  224. # [13:47] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  225. # [13:51] * Joins: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug)
  226. # [13:56] * Joins: Khazou (n=Khazou@190.53.80-79.rev.gaoland.net)
  227. # [13:56] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-219.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  228. # [14:09] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.77.214)
  229. # [14:10] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  230. # [14:14] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  231. # [14:20] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  232. # [14:30] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@68.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  233. # [14:40] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-94.dynamic.amis.net)
  234. # [14:43] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-240-72.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  235. # [14:52] * Quits: cwilper (n=cwilper@74-44-156-57.dsl1-erie.roch.ny.frontiernet.net) ("Ex-Chat")
  236. # [14:57] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.77.214) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. # [15:02] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-162-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  238. # [15:06] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-87-102-93-219.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Remote closed the connection)
  239. # [15:27] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  240. # [15:27] * Joins: NeX (n=NeX@mur75-2-82-238-172-238.fbx.proxad.net)
  241. # [15:27] * Parts: NeX (n=NeX@mur75-2-82-238-172-238.fbx.proxad.net) ("Leaving")
  242. # [16:00] * Quits: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37) (No route to host)
  243. # [16:08] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  244. # [16:14] * Quits: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  245. # [16:22] * Joins: poe (n=poe@151.57.5.250)
  246. # [16:30] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  247. # [16:36] * Quits: poe (n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox)
  248. # [16:38] * Joins: Marc_Engelhardt_ (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  249. # [16:38] * Marc_Engelhardt_ is now known as Marc_Engelhardt
  250. # [16:39] * Parts: Marc_Engelhardt (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  251. # [16:40] * Joins: mengelhardt (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  252. # [16:56] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  253. # [16:56] * Quits: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  254. # [16:56] * Quits: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  255. # [16:56] * Quits: tyoshino_ (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  256. # [16:56] * Quits: nikto (n=blah@thc.homelinux.org) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  257. # [16:56] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  258. # [16:56] * Quits: ndim (i=hun@moooo.n-dimensional.de) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  259. # [16:57] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  260. # [16:58] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  261. # [16:58] * Joins: eighty4 (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  262. # [16:58] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@72.14.224.1)
  263. # [16:58] * Joins: tyoshino_ (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  264. # [16:58] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  265. # [16:58] * Joins: ndim (i=hun@moooo.n-dimensional.de)
  266. # [16:58] * Joins: nikto (n=blah@thc.homelinux.org)
  267. # [17:06] * Joins: ray (i=ray@ipv6.the.ug)
  268. # [17:11] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  269. # [17:18] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  270. # [17:19] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  271. # [17:19] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  272. # [17:23] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  273. # [17:41] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  274. # [17:44] * Quits: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl) ("even marathon runners need to nap / i ran all the way there and then ran back / but back was gone...")
  275. # [17:47] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  276. # [17:56] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-69-181-143-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  277. # [18:07] * Joins: mengelhardt_ (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  278. # [18:08] * Parts: mengelhardt_ (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  279. # [18:15] * Quits: mengelhardt (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  280. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Setting max-size on the total form seems problematic, or at least I can't think of a user friendly way to handle too big totals
  281. # [18:50] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  282. # [19:04] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  283. # [19:14] * Joins: mengelhardt (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net)
  284. # [19:22] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  285. # [19:23] * Joins: egoleo (n=george@vfbb194218.4u.com.gh)
  286. # [19:26] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  287. # [19:45] * Quits: abii (n=macbook@cm27.delta30.maxonline.com.sg)
  288. # [20:09] * Joins: atwilson_ (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  289. # [20:14] * Quits: atwilson_ (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  290. # [20:19] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z978d.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  291. # [20:26] * Quits: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  292. # [20:34] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  293. # [20:41] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  294. # [20:43] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  295. # [20:45] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@ppp-70-226-89-218.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net)
  296. # [21:27] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-94.dynamic.amis.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  297. # [21:31] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-94.dynamic.amis.net)
  298. # [21:32] * Quits: egoleo (n=george@vfbb194218.4u.com.gh) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  299. # [21:51] * Quits: mengelhardt (n=chatzill@pD9E06E1E.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  300. # [21:55] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  301. # [21:55] * Quits: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com) (Client Quit)
  302. # [21:56] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  303. # [21:57] * Quits: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com) (Client Quit)
  304. # [21:57] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  305. # [22:09] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust747.brnt.cable.ntl.com)
  306. # [22:34] <karlcow> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/07/11/Vendor-Veto
  307. # [22:35] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  308. # [22:37] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  309. # [22:53] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@c-76-102-55-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  310. # [22:59] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  311. # [23:06] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  312. # [23:07] * Joins: archtech (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  313. # [23:10] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  314. # [23:16] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-94.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  315. # [23:17] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@nat/mozilla/x-4487d88fbd5cdfe5)
  316. # [23:22] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  317. # [23:34] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  318. # [23:49] * Quits: broquaint (i=ba60c7a3@spc1-brig11-0-0-cust544.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  319. # [23:59] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-103-160.rmo.bellsouth.net) ("Core Breach")
  320. # Session Close: Sun Jul 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)