/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-07-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [01:32] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  6. # [01:32] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [01:32] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  8. # [01:37] <Darxus> Where is a "last call working draft" defined? Google isn't helping.
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  10. # [01:42] <webben> Darxus: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/
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  12. # [01:44] <Darxus> webben: Thank you.
  13. # [01:44] <webben> yw
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  26. # [03:03] <Darxus> I added Hixie's color.html demo to my main page (http://www.chaosreigns.com/), changed the background to white. When filling the area with rgb(255,255,255,0.5) it is clearly convinced that the page background is light grey, but it's white.
  27. # [03:05] <Darxus> Specifying the background color as an attribute of the canvas entity didn't help.
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  29. # [03:11] <Darxus> Ah, it's a bug in chrome 2.0.172.37, not shared by firefox 3.5.1.
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  213. # [09:45] <gavin_> Hixie: "disabilities" probably wouldn't be called that if they affected the majority of the population
  214. # [09:45] <gavin_> for example, few people would say that not having 4 arms is a disability
  215. # [09:46] <gavin_> (not that this actually matters to any of the arguments being made, I just wanted to nitpick)
  216. # [09:49] <Hixie> if there was some pandemic that caused everyone to go blind
  217. # [09:50] <Hixie> would you say being blind would stop being a disability?
  218. # [09:50] <gavin_> people would stop referring to it as such, in practic
  219. # [09:50] <Hixie> i doubt it
  220. # [09:50] <Hixie> especially if the next generation had sight
  221. # [09:51] <gavin_> well, sure, that'd muddy the waters a bit :)
  222. # [09:52] <gavin_> I agree that strictly speaking, not having four arms would arguably be considered a disability
  223. # [09:52] <gavin_> but people in practice treat "things we are not expected to have" differently than "things we are expected to have but don't"
  224. # [09:52] <Hixie> i don't think that not having four arms is a disability
  225. # [09:53] <Hixie> i think that not having sight is a disability
  226. # [09:53] <gavin_> maybe that's a bad example - it's not obviously a good thing
  227. # [09:53] <Hixie> (in fact i think that _having_ four arms would be a disability)
  228. # [09:53] <gavin_> how about not having eyes on the back of your head? :)
  229. # [09:55] <Hixie> that would be a disability, of a kind, sure
  230. # [09:55] <Hixie> but i don't think that's really relevant
  231. # [09:55] <gavin_> I don't either!
  232. # [09:56] <Lachy> gavin_, the difference is that humans have adapted to the senses and limbs that we do have. The equipment we use that depends on 4 arms is designed for 2 people (usually), we have mirrors to compensate for the lack of eyes on the back of our heads
  233. # [09:57] <gavin_> Lachy: I don't think any of that is relevant to the (trivial) nit I was picking
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  235. # [09:57] <gavin_> I was just trying to say that I understand John's reasoning behind "affecting a minority" being part of "disability"'s definition
  236. # [09:58] <Lachy> gavin_, I'm not sure what the nit was that you're picking. I haven't read my mail yet this morning
  237. # [09:58] <Hixie> i think the pandemic example is a clear counterexample of that
  238. # [09:58] <Hixie> and more specifically, the definition of disability doesn't say "minority" anywhere
  239. # [09:58] <Hixie> in other news, why are my speakers popping every few hours
  240. # [09:58] <gavin_> right, that's different because there is an alternate default state that we are familiar with
  241. # [09:58] <Hixie> this is a new class of interference
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  248. # [10:27] <Lachy> I really don't understand the desire to have a distributed source control system like git to allow anyone to be an editor. No other specification in W3C's history has been edited like that, and I'm not sure how it would ultimately work.
  249. # [10:29] * annevk4 decided to not partake in that discussion relatively early on
  250. # [10:29] <olliej> Lachy: people like to think that spec development is like software dev
  251. # [10:30] <olliej> Lachy: eg. that there are typically multiple "ok" solutions
  252. # [10:31] <Lachy> yeah, I'm not going to post in that thread either. Just trying to understand what they're asking for and why
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  255. # [10:32] <heycam> i made an attempt to make it easier to produce a "fork" of ian's document http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jul/0147.html but i don't know if anyone took it up
  256. # [10:32] <gavin_> olliej: you don't think it's possible for there to be more than one "ok" HTML 5 spec?
  257. # [10:32] <olliej> gavin_: no
  258. # [10:33] <olliej> gavin_: the idea of spec forking defies the reason for a spec
  259. # [10:33] <olliej> gavin_: but the particular problem is that we don't want "ok" we want "good"
  260. # [10:33] <gavin_> oh, you mean that you don't think it's possible for two versinos to coexist usefully
  261. # [10:33] <gavin_> ?
  262. # [10:33] <heycam> it might be ok before Rec for more than one to exist
  263. # [10:34] <olliej> gavin_: when writing software you can easily come up with multiple solutions to a problem, some of which may be substantially worse than others
  264. # [10:34] <heycam> i wouldn't want multiple to exist later, being normative on the same stuff
  265. # [10:34] <gavin_> heycam: right, I agree that that would be undesirable
  266. # [10:34] <olliej> gavin_: and you have pet features, etc
  267. # [10:34] <gavin_> but it's not so clear to me that there's "One True Spec" and that all variations are errors
  268. # [10:34] <gavin_> but maybe I'm misinterpreting what olliej means
  269. # [10:35] <olliej> gavin_: whereas a spec needs to be well thought out, and it's very difficult to compensate for "design" errors after the fact
  270. # [10:35] <olliej> gavin_: people want to be able to write some portion of the spec that they like and then just have it merged into the spec (a la a standard softwre patch)
  271. # [10:35] <olliej> gavand that just doesn't make seense for most people
  272. # [10:36] <olliej> gavin_: as they don't have sufficient knowledge to make a meaningful direct contribution like that
  273. # [10:36] <gavin_> I don't think it's true that hixie is the only person with enough relevant knowledge to be able to author text in HTML 5
  274. # [10:37] <olliej> gavin_: he doesn't "just author the spec"
  275. # [10:37] <gavin_> I'm not claiming that he's "just an author" or that writing is all there is to it
  276. # [10:37] <olliej> gavin_: what people want with their distributed spec dev is to just write arbitrary changes and have hixie pik it up
  277. # [10:37] <olliej> and hixie doesn't do that very much himself even
  278. # [10:37] <olliej> we argue about what it hsould be in mailing list
  279. # [10:38] <gavin_> er, I hadn't seen anyone suggest that it would be "like open-source, but without review!"
  280. # [10:38] <heycam> btw i like recently how it's fashionable to call it "ian's draft" rather than "the spec"
  281. # [10:38] <olliej> gavin_: the vast majority of people cannot write spec level text
  282. # [10:38] <gavin_> sure, the vast majority of people can't write c++ code either
  283. # [10:39] <gavin_> that's why mozilla has a review process!
  284. # [10:39] <olliej> gavin_: anything that was in some magicaly distributed repository would likely need to be rewritten by whoever wanted to merge it
  285. # [10:39] <olliej> gavin_: *sigh*
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  287. # [10:39] <olliej> gavin_: writing software is less rigorous than writing the spec in many many regards
  288. # [10:39] <gavin_> I think Manu's main goal is to make it easier to suggest different text/ideas
  289. # [10:40] <olliej> gavin_: email works fine for that
  290. # [10:40] <gavin_> I don't think he's trying to make it so that all of those would be "automatically" merged together just because someone bothered to make them
  291. # [10:40] <olliej> gavin_: lots of random repositories scattered around the web seems the opposite of that
  292. # [10:40] <gavin_> Manu disagrees
  293. # [10:40] <gavin_> and I think he has a point
  294. # [10:41] <gavin_> (with the "email works fine for that", part, to be clear)
  295. # [10:45] <gavin_> in the abstract, at least - I agree with Maciej's post about the most valuable process-change contributions coming from people who've put effort into actually contributing using the old process
  296. # [10:47] <gavin_> I suppose "email isn't good enough for large-scale changes" is mostly a theoretical argument until someone has such changes to suggest
  297. # [10:48] <Hixie> what could possibly be large-scale enough that it couldn't fit in e-mail
  298. # [10:48] <gavin_> (I don't really know whether Manu does or not)
  299. # [10:49] <gavin_> Hixie: well, once you pass a certain threshold, just exchanging diffs becomes troublesome
  300. # [10:49] <Hixie> there's no reason to propose diffs
  301. # [10:49] <Hixie> proposing spec text is a terrible way to contribute to spec development, in my experience
  302. # [10:49] <Hixie> because unless you're truly familiar with the spec, you'll miss all kinds of things
  303. # [10:50] <Hixie> best to propose use cases, requirements
  304. # [10:50] <gavin_> well, it's what sam has been suggesting lately
  305. # [10:50] <Hixie> yeah
  306. # [10:50] <Hixie> can't say i really agree with him
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  308. # [10:52] <gavin_> it may be an effective way to settle some of the recurring disputes
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  310. # [10:52] <gavin_> multiple concrete proposals and a vote
  311. # [10:53] <Hixie> we should resolve recurring debates by determining the best technical solution, not via votes, imho
  312. # [10:53] <gavin_> I agree
  313. # [10:53] <Philip`> We should vote on what we consider the best technical solution
  314. # [10:53] <gavin_> I don't expect you to be swayed by a vote
  315. # [10:54] <gavin_> but perhaps others will
  316. # [10:54] <gavin_> (the dissenters)
  317. # [10:54] <Hixie> i doubt it
  318. # [10:54] <Hixie> but i guess it depends on who you're talking about and what topic you mean
  319. # [10:54] <gavin_> a lot of people seem to care a lot about The Process
  320. # [10:55] <gavin_> and it gives a lot of strength to votes, doesn't it?
  321. # [10:55] <annevk4> after consensus
  322. # [10:56] <Hixie> The Process varies depending on whether you're talking about the w3c as written, the w3c as practiced, or the whatwg.
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  324. # [10:56] <gavin_> I was referring to the W3C's Process
  325. # [10:56] <gavin_> I know the whatwg process doesn't give votes much weight :)
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  332. # [11:20] <zcorpan> hey the spec comment box is more convenient than irc!
  333. # [11:21] <Hixie> sweet, i finally found a way to stop you from mentioning typos on irc :-D
  334. # [11:21] <zcorpan> :)
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  336. # [11:29] <Lachy> Hixie, typo: "i finally" --> "I finally" :-)
  337. # [11:30] <Hixie> i have "text-transform: lowercase" set on any line that only has one sentence
  338. # [11:31] <Philip`> If that was the case, you would have said ":-d"
  339. # [11:31] <Hixie> my renderer is buggy?
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  345. # [11:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe you should say somewhere in the spec UI that the IP will be publicly logged
  346. # [11:43] <Hixie> done
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  516. # [12:49] <gsnedders|work> Wow. WHATWG and public-html have been busy over the weekend.
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  519. # [13:16] <Lachy> Hixie, could you add some sort of Advanced button to the spec's inline bug reporting feature that, instead of simply submitting an anonymous bug, forwards the user to bugzilla template with the comment prefilled
  520. # [13:17] <Lachy> that would allow the reporter to specify additional details, and have it not be anonymous, while still retaining most of the convenience of inline bug reporting
  521. # [13:18] <Lachy> It would also be useful if you could set the subject to something more useful than duplicating the bug summary, like using the section's heading from the spec
  522. # [13:21] <Lachy> actually, it should probably just open bugzilla within an iframe (styled with position: fixed;) so the user isn't taken away from the spec entirely
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  541. # [14:55] * gsnedders|work wonders why he's now listening to songs in French
  542. # [14:55] <gsnedders|work> It must be that damn Swiss guy!
  543. # [14:55] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: hello
  544. # [14:55] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: hi
  545. # [14:55] <eighty4> french rap is said to be the best rap
  546. # [14:55] <eighty4> so nothing wrong with french songs
  547. # [14:55] <gsnedders|work> rap--
  548. # [14:55] <eighty4> yell yes
  549. # [14:56] <eighty4> but if they're good at that they might be good at other music
  550. # [14:58] <eighty4> if one wants multiple articles on a page what should one wrap those with?
  551. # [14:59] <gsnedders|work> Each article should be one <article>
  552. # [15:00] <eighty4> yes, but if one want's to wrap them with something
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  554. # [15:00] <eighty4> like <div><article/><article/></div>
  555. # [15:00] <eighty4> what should one use instead of <div> in that situatioN?
  556. # [15:00] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: Just div or body or something I guess
  557. # [15:00] <gsnedders|work> eighty4: Unless you want it to be an actual section, with a heading, in the document.
  558. # [15:01] <eighty4> gsnedders|work: could I PM a link?
  559. # [15:01] <gsnedders|work> Sure
  560. # [15:02] <eighty4> seemed that was missusing <article> and <section> imo
  561. # [15:02] <eighty4> or is it an ok use of it?
  562. # [15:02] <eighty4> oh... I have to run :(
  563. # [15:02] <gsnedders|work> Each post should be an article, and just use a div as a container
  564. # [15:03] <eighty4> so no <articles> exist then :)
  565. # [15:03] <eighty4> but now I have to run
  566. # [15:03] <eighty4> later
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  585. # [17:01] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: yt?
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  594. # [17:35] <Philip`> Whoops, I replied to a thread and completely forgot that I'd already replied to it a few weeks earlier :-(
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  658. # [23:05] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  659. # [23:05] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  662. # [23:16] <Darxus> Philip`: That didn't work. I did a fillRect on the canvas first, and it still turned grey. Tested it by starting it as a different color, and it still turned grey.
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  668. # [23:30] <cryzed> Hey
  669. # [23:30] <cryzed> :)
  670. # [23:30] <cryzed> I have a small problem with the Python html5lib from the mercurial repository
  671. # [23:30] <cryzed> soup = html5lib.parse(b.open('http://www.google.de/'), 'beautifulsoup') -> This used to work
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  673. # [23:30] <cryzed> but now gives me an error
  674. # [23:30] <cryzed> soup = html5lib.parse(b.open('http://www.google.de/'), 'beautifulsoup')
  675. # [23:31] <cryzed> Uhm: TypeError: insertDoctype() takes exactly 4 arguments (2 given) -> any ideas?
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  678. # [23:37] * annevk4 finds public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf
  679. # [23:37] <annevk4> or, I should say, "rediscovers"
  680. # [23:41] <Hixie> someone was asking how many peopel were subscribed to whatwg recently
  681. # [23:41] <Hixie> today we're at 1123
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  683. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Wow, going up quite quickly then?
  684. # [23:43] <Hixie> apparently
  685. # [23:48] <tantek> fibonacci
  686. # [23:48] <gsnedders> heh
  687. # [23:49] <Darxus> Cool.
  688. # [23:54] <Dashiva> So would the next step in the sequence be 1235 or 11235?
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  691. # [23:56] <Philip`> I think the next would be 1124, actually
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  693. # Session Close: Tue Jul 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)