/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:52] <Darxus> A noscript element is allowed to be a child of a body element, right?
  12. # [00:53] <Darxus> It's phrasing content, which is flow content, and a body contains flow content?
  13. # [00:53] <Darxus> If this is correct, the validator has a bug: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.chaosreigns.com/test/noscript.html
  14. # [00:58] <Darxus> If I'm *not* correct, then my validator has a bug.
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  24. # [02:44] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Yes I do
  25. # [02:54] <Dashiva> Darxus: It shows the wrong error text, but the document is erroneous still
  26. # [02:54] <Dashiva> "The noscript element must not be used in XML documents."
  27. # [02:55] <Darxus> Dashiva: Huh. Is there an alternative for XML?
  28. # [02:56] <Dashiva> The usual methods. Make the document as it should be without script, then use script to change it after loading
  29. # [02:57] <Darxus> Ahh, thanks.
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  40. # [03:57] <Dashiva> Maybe someone (not me) should clarify that "obsolete" in HTML5 still requires implementation support
  41. # [04:06] * Parts: thelinx (n=thelinx@shell.etttretresju.net)
  42. # [04:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: yt?
  43. # [04:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: yep
  44. # [04:06] <othermaciej> Dashiva: I thought that was really clear - I'm trying to help explain it to John and Shelley now
  45. # [04:07] <Hixie> so i was looking at the summary="" feedback you sent a while back, saying that we should tell authors not to use summary="" in the <table> section
  46. # [04:08] <Hixie> the reason i hadn't mentioned summary="" there (except for implementation-specific text) is that there doesn't seem to be a need to tell authors to not do anything, because authors by and large have never heard of it
  47. # [04:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think my main feedback was to describe what it does and explain why using it is a problem
  48. # [04:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: looking at the current spec, it looks like the obsolete features section describes what it does, and says authors should not use it
  49. # [04:09] <Hixie> yeah i was going to add text saying what the problems were into the obsolete features section
  50. # [04:09] <Dashiva> othermaciej: It's clear to me, in light of the "support existing content" idea. But if you view language obsoletion independent of use, maybe it's confusing.
  51. # [04:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: but it doesn't explain why, which might seem mysterious
  52. # [04:10] <Hixie> on a completely different front, do you have an opinion on whether the event loop should pump while the UA is blocked on a <script> element waiting for style sheets to load?
  53. # [04:11] <Hixie> (i.e. should setTimeout()s fire, user interaction events fire, etc)
  54. # [04:12] <Hixie> (i guess it should be like blocking on <script>, which doesn't pump the event loop)
  55. # [04:12] <Hixie> (at least per spec it doesn't currently)
  56. # [04:12] <othermaciej> it should be like blocking on <script>, yes
  57. # [04:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think giving the reasoning in the obsolete elements section would be sufficient to address my concern, particularly if the <table> element section has a clear cross-reference
  58. # [04:13] <Hixie> it has a cross-reference from the one mention of summary="" in the implementation requirement
  59. # [04:14] <Hixie> in that you can click on the word "summary"
  60. # [04:14] <othermaciej> that seems fine
  61. # [04:14] <othermaciej> (to me)
  62. # [04:15] <Hixie> k
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  65. # [04:39] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/8618F212-C191-4CCC-9F27-6BF7829622FE@w3.org is a surprisingly interesting e-mail from Tim if you care about the "resource" vs "resource representation" nonsense
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  71. # [05:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: that is kind of interesting
  72. # [05:30] <othermaciej> using fragments to refer to non-document entities would have indeed made more sense
  73. # [05:35] <Hixie> using a whole new scheme would have been better, imho
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  80. # [06:03] <Dashiva> Hmm...
  81. # [06:04] <Dashiva> Shelley seems to talk about a model where features are marked as deprecated, usage drops, deprecated becomes obsolete, and finally support is dropped
  82. # [06:05] <Dashiva> As I recall, that model works fine when there is no (unmaintained) legacy content, not so well when legacy rears its ugly head.
  83. # [06:06] <Dashiva> I wonder if there is a significant body of legacy @summary use
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  86. # [06:26] <othermaciej> does WCAG 2 explicitly mention the summary="" attribute anywhere?
  87. # [06:27] <othermaciej> I couldn't find the reference
  88. # [06:30] <othermaciej> I see, it's in a separate Note
  89. # [06:51] * gavin_ finds handicap parking slots to be limiting to those not physically impaired
  90. # [06:51] <gavin_> means they need to park farther from the entrance
  91. # [06:52] <gavin_> society has generally agreed that the tradeoff there (ease of access to those with disabilities) was worth it, though
  92. # [06:52] <gavin_> and that concludes today's Irrelevant Analogy Nitpick
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  103. # [10:06] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i would suggest File
  104. # [10:07] <Hixie> though i guess that excludes streams
  105. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, File is simpler and unambiguous
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  108. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> but I guess it does mean serialized content and not a stream
  109. # [10:23] <annevk> so RDF fucked up both XML and HTTP?
  110. # [10:23] <annevk> fun
  111. # [10:24] <annevk> (though HTTP only in the theoretical sense so I suppose that doesn't really matter)
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  113. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> collateral damage
  114. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> and civilian casualties
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  116. # [10:44] <annevk> Lachy, you around?
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  123. # [11:11] <Hixie> gotta love how john completely ignored the points i made about the pfwg ignoring me, and then said i should talk to the pfwg.
  124. # [11:12] <annevk> yeah, I thought that was weird
  125. # [11:25] <Lachy> annevk, yes
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  127. # [11:26] <tantek> Hixie, it seems like Sam Ruby is getting increasingly impatient with those on the list that are either repeating themselves or making apparent logically flawed statements (and he's pointing them out).
  128. # [11:26] <tantek> apparently
  129. # [11:30] <Lachy> I'm thinking that since the arguments from the pro-summary attribute advocates largely stem from the advice in WCAG2 Techniques and the apparent contradiction, we should instead be pushing for the PFWG to amend WCAG2 with better solutions
  130. # [11:33] <annevk> Lachy, should I have you the public key on my local machine?
  131. # [11:34] <gsnedders_> Lachy: What better solution that is conforming in HTML 4.01?
  132. # [11:34] <Hixie> several of the ones in html5 are conforming in html4
  133. # [11:34] <annevk> Lachy, I haven't worked a lot with this before; in fact, only for the W3C
  134. # [11:35] <annevk> Lachy, btw, it seems you did not restore the original template with the author names visible
  135. # [11:36] <Lachy> annevk, I need to put a copy of your ssh-rsa key into the authorized_keys file on the server
  136. # [11:37] <annevk> is to your @opera.com address ok?
  137. # [11:38] <Lachy> sure, either address is fine
  138. # [11:39] <annevk> and then I can login through ssh?
  139. # [11:39] <Lachy> annevk, yes
  140. # [11:39] <Lachy> using: ssh lhunt@blog.whatwg.org
  141. # [11:40] <Lachy> gsnedders_, some of the alternative solutions listed in HTML5 are also conforming HTML4
  142. # [11:41] <Hixie> i just said that :-P
  143. # [11:41] <Lachy> Hixie, oh. I didn't read your message
  144. # [11:42] <Hixie> hey go figure, webkit only pauses to wait for styles for _external_ scripts
  145. # [11:42] <Hixie> gecko doesn't seem to discriminate
  146. # [11:43] <annevk> so worky?
  147. # [11:43] <annevk> it asks me for a password...
  148. # [11:43] <Lachy> annevk, I haven't added it yet
  149. # [11:43] <Lachy> give me a minute, I only just received your mail
  150. # [11:44] <annevk> Hixie, what happened to the weekly updates from markp?
  151. # [11:44] <Hixie> no idea, ask markp
  152. # [11:45] <Lachy> annevk, now try
  153. # [11:45] <annevk> I'm in
  154. # [11:46] <Lachy> annevk, btw, it was an rsa key you sent, so the file should have been called id_rsa not id_dsa, but it doesn't matter too much
  155. # [11:47] <Philip`> It should have been called id_rsa.pub, I hope
  156. # [11:47] <Lachy> Philip`, yes
  157. # [11:47] <Philip`> since you're really not meant to email your private key to people :-p
  158. # [11:48] <Lachy> he emailed the id_dsa.pub file
  159. # [11:49] <annevk> now it asks for the password again
  160. # [11:49] <Lachy> what?
  161. # [11:49] <annevk> hmm, only when I use sshfs
  162. # [11:50] <Lachy> it shouldn't. If you have the private key in ~/.ssh/id_rsa or ~/.ssh/identity it should work
  163. # [11:51] <annevk> nope
  164. # [11:53] <annevk> I'll use some other means to do things
  165. # [12:00] <Lachy> annevk, are you going to replace the stylesheet with that one from Ben?
  166. # [12:01] <annevk> I'm currently duplicating the default theme
  167. # [12:01] <annevk> it's take ages to make a cp of a folder on that server
  168. # [12:02] <annevk> then I'll put the style sheet in the "new theme" and maybe make some other adjustments
  169. # [12:04] <Lachy> annevk, if you want authors to show up on the index page as well, uncomment the appropriate line in index.php
  170. # [12:05] <Lachy> actually, copy the line from single.php, as it also adds a link to the authors URL
  171. # [12:07] <Lachy> heh, nice theme name: org.whatwg.awesome :-)
  172. # [12:16] <Philip`> I think someone needs to make the font half the size it currently is
  173. # [12:17] <annevk> it was actually smaller but I wanted it larger
  174. # [12:17] <annevk> I'll make it a bit smaller then
  175. # [12:18] <Philip`> It seems sensible to make it comparable to text sizes on all other sites, and then if somebody personally prefers large fonts they can configure their browser to increase them all
  176. # [12:18] <Lachy> annevk, just make it the default font-size
  177. # [12:19] <annevk> done
  178. # [12:19] <annevk> Philip`, sensible is boring
  179. # [12:20] <Philip`> It looks alright now if I zoom out to 90%
  180. # [12:20] <Lachy> Philip`, no, copying the mistakes of other sites is not a good idea
  181. # [12:21] <Hixie> Lachy: we lost that fight, deal with it
  182. # [12:21] <Hixie> font-size:medium means 16px
  183. # [12:22] <Lachy> font-size: small is somewhat acceptable, though I think medium is best
  184. # [12:24] <Lachy> damn, a recent nightly minefield update appears to have killed my entire history and bookmarks
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  186. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: if you were a Minefield user, that should make you mad. But since there's no such thing as Minefield users, only Minefield testers, you should be happy!
  187. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> exclamation point
  188. # [12:30] <gsnedders_> Lachy: See, if you used Opera…
  189. # [12:30] <Lachy> gsnedders_, I use both
  190. # [12:30] <Lachy> I even have opera set as my default, but there are still some things that Minefield is better for
  191. # [12:33] <Lachy> yay, it looks like it's just Minefield failing to load them. Using FIrefox 3.5.1 with the same profile restores everything :-)
  192. # [12:33] * gsnedders_ tries to resist the temptation to say: "BREAKING: Opera employee has Opera set as default browser"
  193. # [12:33] <annevk> Chromium seems to cache HTML for a long time for some reason
  194. # [12:33] <annevk> content that is long gone does not disappear on refreshes?!
  195. # [12:34] <gsnedders_> That's the same for anything using WebKit, AFAIK
  196. # [12:35] <annevk> posts from hsivonen to blog.whatwg.org might need to be modified to use the proper heading level
  197. # [12:35] <annevk> s/might//
  198. # [12:46] <annevk> if someone could start a wiki page with things to fix on the blog (markup, etc.) or somewhere else I'll try to do some more stuff tonight
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  204. # [13:42] * Philip` wonders what the difference is between 'obsolete' and 'deprecated'
  205. # [13:43] <takkaria> you deprecate something that's still perfectly functional that you have a vendetta against, but obsoleted stuff is genuinely outdated
  206. # [13:43] * takkaria makes it up
  207. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> gsnedders_: about the caching thing, if so, I think that's coincidental, because Webkit/Webcore itself doesn't have any caching code. it's all platform code
  208. # [13:44] <Philip`> I suppose 'obsolete' has the advantage that nobody will misread/misspell it as 'obsoliete'
  209. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> Philip`: or obnoxiouselete either
  210. # [13:45] <gsnedders_> MikeSmith: Stop assuming I know stuff.
  211. # [13:45] <gsnedders_> MikeSmith: Also, I'm not going home on Friday.
  212. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> gsnedders_: I guess you'll have to find a way to enjoy yourself in Sweden in the summertime. poor you.
  213. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> maybe instead of obsolete and deprecated we need a third term without their connotations
  214. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., "Conforming but FUBAR"
  215. # [13:48] <gsnedders_> "we-don't-like-this"
  216. # [13:49] <gsnedders_> Cool. Facebook has crashed Opera.
  217. # [13:49] <Philip`> Or: Opera has crashed Facebook
  218. # [13:49] <Philip`> to assign blame in the right place
  219. # [13:50] * Philip` awaits a day when crashing is obsolete rather than just deprecated
  220. # [13:52] * gsnedders_ notes with mild amusement nobody apart from MikeSmith here has a clue about his former plans to go home
  221. # [13:52] * Philip` finally reaches the email where Hixie already queried the obsolete vs deprecated thing
  222. # [13:52] * krijnh wants some obsol33t stuff in the spec as well
  223. # [13:53] <Philip`> I think the spec section status markers should be extended, so that as well as showing the stability of each section they also show its awesomeness
  224. # [13:54] <gsnedders_> +1
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  226. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> Philip`: you're onto something there
  227. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> but it should be two awesomeness fields, not one
  228. # [13:58] <gsnedders_> What's the scale?
  229. # [13:58] <gsnedders_> Awesomeness units?
  230. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> gsnedders_: binary - "This part rocks!" and "This part blows."
  231. # [13:58] <gsnedders_> MikeSmith: And the other field?
  232. # [14:01] <Philip`> I was thinking more of a continuous linear scale from "this is like so lame" to "this r0x0rz my s0x0rz"
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  234. # [14:02] <gsnedders_> Philip`: Yeah, I was thinking of that
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  238. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> is the value of the iframe "name" attribute allowed to be empty?
  239. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> v.nu doesn't require to be
  240. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> and in HTML4, it was defined as CDATA, with no constraints on its length
  241. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/browsers.html#valid-browsing-context-name
  242. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> "A valid browsing context name is any string with at least one character that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character."
  243. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> seems to require that it not be empty
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  254. # [16:10] <gsnedders_> Is there any dfn of OMG IDL -> ES mapping?
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  262. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: venus instance for planet html5 consistently gets a 500 from your site when trying to get your feed
  263. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> for quite a while now (many weeks)
  264. # [17:01] <gsnedders_> Why should ~0 give -1 in ES?
  265. # [17:01] * gsnedders_ realize
  266. # [17:01] * Quits: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@h-6-72.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) ("http://calyptus.eu/")
  267. # [17:01] <gsnedders_> *realizes
  268. # [17:02] <takkaria> if ~ is bitwise NOT, then it's because integers are signed
  269. # [17:02] <gsnedders_> Right, and because with two's compliment all bits as 1 is -1
  270. # [17:04] * gsnedders_ is for some reason thinking of sign bits, and hence being confused
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  274. # [17:32] <Lachy> Can anyone explain why this particular example of a summary attribute is actually useful for anyone? http://source.sakaiproject.org/viewsvn/content/trunk/content-bundles/content.properties?p2=%2Fcontent%2Ftrunk%2Fcontent-bundles%2Fcontent.properties&p1=%2Fcontent%2Ftrunk%2Fcontent-bundles%2Fcontent.properties&r1=39898&r2=39897&view=diff&pathrev=39898
  275. # [17:32] <Lachy> that's from that bug report that Shelly referred to.
  276. # [17:33] <Lachy> http://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-11668
  277. # [17:33] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@U376d.u.pppool.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  278. # [17:33] <Lachy> It looks to me like it's just a list describing what each column is, but that info could almost certainly be derived from the column headings
  279. # [17:34] <Lachy> (if it couldn't, then even sighted users would have difficulty)
  280. # [17:34] <takkaria> or with a title="" attribute on the header table cells so that if you're in a column you can find oiut what it does rather than having to remember a paragraph of text
  281. # [17:34] <Lachy> takkaria, yeah, I was thinking that too
  282. # [17:34] <Lachy> and was about to write it :-)
  283. # [17:35] * takkaria grins
  284. # [17:35] <Lachy> except I was going to suggest putting the title attribute on the col element, but I'm not sure how much support that would have in practice compared with it being on the th element
  285. # [17:36] <Philip`> Lachy: It couldn't be derived from the column heading textContent - e.g. "Column 2 has checkboxes to select whether an item should be moved, copied or removed" is usually implemented as a headingless column of checkboxes, and a sighted user can easily see there's buttons at the bottom of the page for "move selected", "delete selected" etc
  286. # [17:36] <Lachy> Philip`, it's hard to say without actually seeing the table, and I couldn't find a link to an example table from that bug report
  287. # [17:37] <Lachy> but I reckon there would be alternative ways to convey that information
  288. # [17:37] <Philip`> Lachy: Most webmail systems have the same kind of checkbox thing
  289. # [17:37] <Lachy> I know
  290. # [17:38] <Philip`> so it doesn't seem that hard to say without actually seeing the table, because you can see the same thing in lots of other tables
  291. # [17:39] <Philip`> (The description could still go in a <th abbr> or something, so <table summary> isn't necessarily the best way of doing it, but it can't be done with visible text)
  292. # [17:41] <Lachy> there is no abbr attribute in HTML5
  293. # [17:41] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  294. # [17:41] <Lachy> although, the abbr attribute in HTML4 wasn't intended for that purpose either
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  296. # [17:43] <Lachy> It could be done with the title attribute, which is sometimes visible, though it does suffer from some problems like being inaccessible to keyboard users without assistive technology
  297. # [17:44] <takkaria> not with a visible indicator, it doesn't
  298. # [17:44] <takkaria> oh
  299. # [17:44] <takkaria> keyboard users
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  309. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> an HTML5 datatype-checking library in python or c++ or other would be a nice thing to have
  310. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> were someone so inclined to write one
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  313. # [18:54] <Lachy> apparently JF has produced an alternative draft. I wonder if and when the draft will be made available publicly? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0071.html
  314. # [18:54] <Lachy> or if MikeSmith could post a pointer, since he was apparently CC'd on the mail
  315. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I guess John will announce it when it's available
  316. # [18:57] * Parts: hallvors (n=hallvord@cm-84.208.127.109.getinternet.no)
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  319. # [19:30] * gsnedders_ rings up his sister, and doesn't get her
  320. # [19:31] <gsnedders_> Does that mean she's giving birth or something?
  321. # [19:37] * Philip` wonders if anyone happens to know how to change the screen resolution in Windows 2000, when you can't see the screen
  322. # [19:40] <Darxus> Philip`: How can you do anything in windows when you can't see the screen?
  323. # [19:41] <Dashiva> Well, you can run services. But I don't see why the resolution would matter
  324. # [19:41] <gsnedders_> Philip`: You reboot to a unix-clone CD
  325. # [19:42] <Philip`> Darxus: I'll be able to see the screen once I change the resolution to something the monitor can handle without desyncing
  326. # [19:46] <Darxus> Heh.
  327. # [19:46] <Darxus> Philip`: Reboot to safe mode?
  328. # [19:47] * Philip` manages to guess the right key combinations to change the display settings
  329. # [19:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  330. # [19:53] <gsnedders_> hehe
  331. # [19:54] <gsnedders_> fun :P
  332. # [20:00] <Dashiva> This is why voice control is great
  333. # [20:02] <Philip`> At least until you need to reconfigure your microphone
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  350. # [22:13] <annevk> MikeSmith, I've no idea how that can be
  351. # [22:13] <annevk> :/
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  357. # [22:37] <Lachy> watching tonights episode of Top Gear, lovin' how they're reviewing two Aussie cars :-)
  358. # [22:38] <Lachy> but I can't get over they're totally incorrect pronunciation of "Bathurst"
  359. # [22:38] <Lachy> s/they're/their/
  360. # [22:38] * gsnedders_ can't get over Lachy being unable to pronounce "Lachlan"
  361. # [22:38] <Philip`> I hope they're not propounding any unfounded stereotypes about Australians
  362. # [22:39] <Lachy> gsnedders_, I do say my name correctly
  363. # [22:39] <gsnedders_> Lachy: I think most people who have any clue about Gaelic or Scots pronunciation, the two languages in which your name exists, would say you don't :)
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  371. # [22:57] <annevk> should we use HTML5 on the blog?
  372. # [22:57] <annevk> I already put some form stuff in
  373. # [22:58] <gsnedders_> Yes
  374. # [22:58] <annevk> wondering about <aside> and such
  375. # [22:58] <Philip`> No
  376. # [22:58] <annevk> reasoning?
  377. # [22:59] <gsnedders_> Because I'm crazy.
  378. # [22:59] * Philip` wasn't intending to provide any more reasoning than gsnedders_
  379. # [22:59] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  380. # [23:03] * annevk was also considering dropping the html/head/body tags
  381. # [23:03] <gsnedders_> +1
  382. # [23:03] <gsnedders_> (No reasoning given)
  383. # [23:05] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-196-86.bredband.comhem.se)
  384. # [23:08] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobouls
  385. # [23:08] * jacobouls is now known as jacobolus
  386. # [23:09] <jacobolus> annevk: do it! drop it all!
  387. # [23:09] <jacobolus> then write up a blog post about how it's the new "best practice", and let the flames dance
  388. # [23:11] <jacobolus> btw, if anyone wants input into python-based servers' mime types, now is the time: http://bugs.python.org/issue6626
  389. # [23:12] * Quits: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  390. # [23:13] <annevk> jacobolus, ah yeah
  391. # [23:13] <annevk> the good old days
  392. # [23:14] <jacobolus> annevk: I mean, google does it, right?
  393. # [23:14] <jacobolus> so it has to be good
  394. # [23:15] <jacobolus> actually, google seems to include html/head/body tags, and just drop the close of body. hmm.
  395. # [23:16] <jacobolus> that's too bad. you can't use them as evidence
  396. # [23:16] <annevk> jacobolus, maybe add .xht and .xhtml?
  397. # [23:17] <annevk> .svg ?
  398. # [23:17] <jacobolus> annevk: oh, I'm going to add most or all of apache's defaults
  399. # [23:17] <jacobolus> the main questions are about what to use when there are multiple acceptable choices
  400. # [23:17] <annevk> .ogv oga etc.
  401. # [23:17] <annevk> oh ok
  402. # [23:17] <jacobolus> e.g. text/javascript, application/javascript, text/ecmascript, etc.
  403. # [23:18] <jacobolus> for the moment I've just tried to make the code snae
  404. # [23:18] <jacobolus> *sane
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  406. # [23:18] <jacobolus> I don't know if you've ever looked at the mimetypes module, but somewhere around 2001 it went from being a nice little script to being a nightmare
  407. # [23:19] <jacobolus> I'm hard pressed to think of a worse bit of python code I've seen
  408. # [23:19] <annevk> html5lib? :p
  409. # [23:19] <jacobolus> haven't seen it ;)
  410. # [23:26] <jacobolus> it manages to confuse the syntax highlighter for google code, anyway
  411. # [23:26] <jacobolus> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/src/html5lib/html5parser.py
  412. # [23:26] <jacobolus> around line 204
  413. # [23:32] <Dashiva> jacobolus: Will you add the types apache refuses to include?
  414. # [23:32] <jacobolus> Dashiva: I wouldn't mind.. someone else presumably has to read/approve whatever patches I submit
  415. # [23:33] <jacobolus> Dashiva: I don't actually know much about it though; have a link or quick summary?
  416. # [23:33] <jacobolus> Dashiva: all I know is that it was previously completely awful. It would be good to do things "right" though, and I'd be happy to hear what that means to various ppl.
  417. # [23:35] <annevk> well for e.g. JavaScript it does not matter at all
  418. # [23:36] <annevk> so "right" could be text/awesome-donkey+xml
  419. # [23:36] <annevk> for image resources other than SVG it does not really matter either
  420. # [23:37] <Dashiva> jacobolus: https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=22580
  421. # [23:37] <annevk> (having said that, I believe even the sniffing spec states that you should specify the correct media type)
  422. # [23:38] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  423. # [23:38] <jacobolus> Dashiva: the way the python mimetypes module currently works is to have a 'strict' mode and a 'lenient' mode; I personally think this is stupid
  424. # [23:39] <jacobolus> the 'strict' mode is supposed to stick to IANA registered types
  425. # [23:39] <jacobolus> but in practice it doesn't of course because anything in a mime.types file it finds is considered 'strict'
  426. # [23:40] <annevk> IANA / IETF just doesn't work well for these things
  427. # [23:41] <annevk> media types, URI schemes, HTTP headers, ...
  428. # [23:41] <jacobolus> anything?
  429. # [23:41] <jacobolus> ;)
  430. # [23:41] <jacobolus> annevk: I'm not convinced IETF is great for protocols either
  431. # [23:41] <annevk> character encodings is another disaster
  432. # [23:42] <Dashiva> Great case for decentralized extensibility :P
  433. # [23:44] <Hixie> so does anyone know where hsivonen is?
  434. # [23:44] <Hixie> he's been off the grid since july 17th and i don't recall him saying he was going to be on vacation
  435. # [23:45] <jacobolus> Dashiva: here's apache's current mappings extension -> type http://pastie.textmate.org/569011
  436. # [23:46] <jacobolus> I'd just as soon include all of those in Python's standard library, though I'm not sure everyone would be on board with that
  437. # [23:49] <annevk> Hixie, no idea
  438. # [23:50] <annevk> Hixie, I'd imagine someone at Mozilla knows, but maybe not
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  442. # Session Close: Mon Aug 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)