/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 03 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jacobolus> Dashiva: it looks to me like those types in that bug are actually listed by apache these days
  4. # [00:01] <jacobolus> video/x-ms-asf, etc.
  5. # [00:04] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@q-static-149-82.avvanta.com)
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> good news everyone!
  7. # [00:06] <Dashiva> jacobolus: Indeed, looks like they were added a few months ago.
  8. # [00:06] <Hixie> hsivonen isn't dead
  9. # [00:07] <Dashiva> "More unregistered media types in common use on the Internet. *sigh*"
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> well, he might be dead, but he's not officially missing until aug 3rd
  11. # [00:07] <Dashiva> Hixie: He was hit by a car, and not a bus?
  12. # [00:07] <Hixie> apparently he's on vacation with no e-mail access
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> boy is he gonna have fun when he gets back and sees two weeks' worth of public-html
  14. # [00:07] <jacobolus> Dashiva: hmm? link?
  15. # [00:07] <ezyang> i,i "like the CentOS dude"
  16. # [00:08] <Dashiva> jacobolus: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/httpd/httpd/trunk/docs/conf/mime.types?view=log
  17. # [00:08] <jacobolus> haha
  18. # [00:09] <Dashiva> I'm (positively) surprised it was Roy who did it
  19. # [00:10] <annevk2> Hixie, jaja :)
  20. # [00:12] <Dashiva> Hixie: "Wow, I saved myself a lot of pain by not being present during this"
  21. # [00:12] <Hixie> hah
  22. # [00:12] <Hixie> i'm very curious to see what we end up voting on
  23. # [00:12] <Hixie> i really didn't understand the vote sam last described (obsolete vs deprecated -- what changes would it mean to the spec?)
  24. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Just a word replacement
  25. # [00:14] <Lachy> Hixie, I didn't understand that either. John's proposed draft doesn't make summary "deprecated"
  26. # [00:14] <Hixie> i didn't understand john's draft
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> i mean, i understood what he was proposing, but he didn't say why he was proposing it
  28. # [00:15] <annevk2> because of WAI consensus?
  29. # [00:15] <Lachy> yeah, the lack of justification was one of issues I had with it
  30. # [00:15] <annevk2> Hixie, why are we not using deprecated btw now that we have warnings?
  31. # [00:16] <Hixie> annevk2: deprecated isn't in my dictionary
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> i mean, literally. i just searched for "Deprecated" in the dictionary on Mac OS X and it wasn't there
  33. # [00:16] <Dashiva> "We've done some new research showing there's no lumiferous aether, but this earlier work says it exists, so let's keep studying the aether"
  34. # [00:16] <Hixie> oh wait that was the thesaurus
  35. # [00:17] <annevk2> it seems though that you might be in a minority here and that most people find deprecated much more clear than obsolete but conforming
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> annevk2: the values that it would cover aren't just deprecated, i mean, they really are obsolete
  37. # [00:17] <Hixie> annevk2: the only reason we allow them is to allow migration
  38. # [00:17] <annevk2> that is pretty much how deprecated is used
  39. # [00:18] <annevk2> in all specs I've read anyway
  40. # [00:18] <Hixie> annevk2: deprecated implies (to me at least) that it might make sense to make new documents with those features
  41. # [00:18] <Hixie> as in the way HTML4 Transitional was "deprecated" but people still use it today
  42. # [00:18] <Hixie> and think it's fine
  43. # [00:19] <annevk2> that was because HTML4 had a separate conformance class for it, I think
  44. # [00:19] <Lachy> Hixie, I suppose you can make the editorial change of "braille" to "Braille" that John did in his draft
  45. # [00:19] <annevk2> for most other specs it would always generate a warning
  46. # [00:20] <annevk2> and for HTML5 it could too
  47. # [00:20] <Dashiva> How about using a word that isn't either deprecated or obsolete?
  48. # [00:20] <annevk2> the spec could also explain that you should not use these features in new documents (HTML4 didn't provide much guidance)
  49. # [00:22] <Lachy> using "obsolete" made sense when we just had conforming and non-conforming. It doesn't make much sense with the current conforming but obsolete nonsense
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'm up for a new word if you have one. "deprecated" isn't in my thesaurus, see above. :-)
  51. # [00:22] <Hixie> Lachy: is lowercase "braille" really wrong?
  52. # [00:22] <Hixie> i'd have expected the word to have become a regular noun by now
  53. # [00:23] <Dashiva> Well, functionality-wise, it seems to be more akin to legacy than deprecation
  54. # [00:23] <annevk2> Hixie, Wikipedia uses uppercase
  55. # [00:23] <Hixie> annevk2: not everywhere, i just checked
  56. # [00:24] <Lachy> I'm not sure. I just don't think it's a controversial change
  57. # [00:24] <annevk2> Hixie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Braille#Capitalization
  58. # [00:26] <Dashiva> Last I recall, @summary was still acceptable in addition to other techniques, used by a perfect and faultless author, for purely structural data of no use to other users
  59. # [00:26] <Lachy> answers.com and dictionary.com both seem to indicate that either is acceptable
  60. # [00:27] <Lachy> Dictionary.app uses only uppercase
  61. # [00:30] <Lachy> hmm, interesting http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/braille/capitalize.html
  62. # [00:31] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary/printable.html#def-braille
  63. # [00:31] <Lachy> that uses lowercase
  64. # [00:32] <annevk2> heh
  65. # [00:32] <Dashiva> Enter "Braille/braille"
  66. # [00:32] <Lachy> in that case, leave it as is, since John provided no justification for the change anyway
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  70. # [00:38] <Lachy> wow, like annevk2, I too find myself strongly agreeing with Murray.
  71. # [00:49] <webben> Hixie: "conforming but not recommended" ?
  72. # [00:50] <webben> or "conforming but not preferred"?
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  75. # [00:51] <Lachy> ... or simply "non-conforming"!
  76. # [00:53] <Dashiva> vestigal syntax
  77. # [00:54] <Lachy> s/vestigal/vestigial/
  78. # [00:54] <Lachy> s/syntax/markup/
  79. # [00:54] <Dashiva> I always get that one wrong
  80. # [00:55] <Dashiva> Then again, I was spelling ominous quite confidently as "omnious" until I was 25
  81. # [00:55] <Lachy> I'm not sure vestigial is really an appropriate term here though
  82. # [00:56] <Dashiva> a bodily part or organ that is small and degenerate or imperfectly developed in comparison to one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms
  83. # [00:57] <Dashiva> organ -> feature, generation -> spec version
  84. # [00:57] <Dashiva> I dunno, you're probably right
  85. # [00:57] <webben> Curious how http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#glossary makes deprecated a subset of obsolete and unhelpful that it doesn't clearly define "exist".
  86. # [01:00] <webben> e.g. overlapping set, rather
  87. # [01:00] <webben> s/e.g.//
  88. # [01:09] <Lachy> if we clearly define "obsolete" as being a feature which authors must not use, but which must still be supported as defined, and deprecated as meaning a feature in the process of being phased out and replaced with an alternative, such that it intended to become obsolete in the future
  89. # [01:10] <Lachy> or we could go with "depreciated" instead ;-)
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  92. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Lachy: Why would anything be deprecated then? If there's no replacement, we can't start phasing it out. And if there is a replacement, why not start phasing it out right away?
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  94. # [01:18] <Dashiva> The old deprecated vs obsolete seems to be based on the idea that you can just say "Stop using this, support is going away", but we aren't going to remove support for still used features
  95. # [01:22] <heycam> what's the difference between a poll and a vote in this case?
  96. # [01:23] * Philip` assumes votes are binding, and polls aren't
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  98. # [01:39] <jacobolus> wow, these are beautiful mime types:
  99. # [01:39] <jacobolus> application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document
  100. # [01:39] <jacobolus> etc.
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  105. # [01:58] <Lachy> Dashiva, personally, I don't think we should have a deprecated state at all, and would prefer that we simply dropped the conforming but obsolete nonsense entirely. I'm just suggesting this as a potential compromise.
  106. # [01:59] <Dashiva> Yeah, I feel the same (I think). But neither deprecated nor obsolete (from HTML4) really fit the HTML5 concept, so I think it'll be trouble with either one. If only there was another word
  107. # [02:00] <inimino> "ungood"?
  108. # [02:00] <Lachy> I think the specific word used is less important than their definitions
  109. # [02:00] <Lachy> using the HTML4 definition of deprecated would not be a good idea
  110. # [02:01] <Lachy> refining the definition of deprecated to avoid the issues with the HTML4 definition is slightly better, though we'd have to accept the baggage associated with its perceived meaning among the web community
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  112. # [02:16] <Dashiva> I'm on the "deprecated is toothless" train. Not just for HTML4, OpenGL is going through the same thing.
  113. # [02:17] <Lachy> yeah, maybe that's the reason that some people are pushing for the use of the term. They know it's toothless and still want people to acutally use the summary attribute
  114. # [02:18] <Lachy> so maybe it's not such a good compromise after all
  115. # [02:18] <Lachy> screw it, let's just go with "obsolete and non-conforming"
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  117. # [02:21] <Dashiva> Well, I wouldn't mind if it was changed to deprecated just for style. As long as it's conforming with a warning the actual result is the same
  118. # [02:22] * roc ignores Tom Lord
  119. # [02:22] <Dashiva> I would be surprised if there's anyone who would accept s/obsolete/deprecated/ without also removing the warning
  120. # [02:22] <Lachy> I don't want the warnings. I think the whole idea of downplayed errors or warnings for obsolete features is nonsense
  121. # [02:23] <Dashiva> I think it's an acceptable compromise for controversial features
  122. # [02:23] <Dashiva> To me it's like a rfc SHOULD
  123. # [02:23] <Dashiva> Or maybe more like a SHOULD NOT [use this], I suppose
  124. # [02:24] <Lachy> but the controversy is simply based on people wanting to maintain the status quo, rather than accept change
  125. # [02:25] <Dashiva> It's still a step forward, even if not as large a step as ideal. And the next version can include another step.
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  130. # [02:36] <Hixie> i could just use "Features that are not part of the language" and "Features that are included for migration purposes only and trigger warnings"
  131. # [02:37] <Dashiva> I think "conforming" has rough consensus, please don't abandon it :)
  132. # [02:38] <Hixie> i just meant instead of "obsolete"
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  134. # [02:44] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't think anyone is concered about the use of obsolete for features that are non-conforming.
  135. # [02:44] <Hixie> that's unclear to me, since there was a quote of a definition of "obsolete" that doesn't match what the spec says
  136. # [02:45] <Lachy> it's only the oxymoronic use of obsolete but conforming.
  137. # [02:45] <Hixie> why is that oxymoronic?
  138. # [02:45] <Lachy> because obsolete suggests it shouldn't be used, but conforming suggests that is ok.
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  140. # [02:46] <Lachy> they're basically contradictory concepts
  141. # [02:47] <Hixie> obsolete means that it is out of date
  142. # [02:48] <Hixie> conforming means that you are allowed to do it
  143. # [02:48] <Hixie> conforming doesn't mean it's ok
  144. # [02:49] <Lachy> technically, that may be so, but you have to consider how the terms will be perceived
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  177. # [04:19] <Dashiva> Probably a pipe dream due to Member restrictions, but it would be interesting to see what other WGs have changed their processes after whatwg/htmlwg's example
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  186. # [04:25] <Hixie> Dashiva: forms and css became a little more open
  187. # [04:25] <Hixie> other than that, i'm not aware of any major change
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  192. # [04:34] <Dashiva> Hixie: I think doug has been opening up webapps some too
  193. # [04:34] <Hixie> webapps started after htmlwg
  194. # [04:38] <Dashiva> Well, compared to webapi
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  196. # [04:46] <Hixie> it is?
  197. # [04:46] <Hixie> iirc webapi started after htmlwg too, anyway
  198. # [04:47] <Hixie> (webapi and waf were merged into webapps)
  199. # [04:47] <Hixie> (but all three started after htmlwg, i thought)
  200. # [04:47] <Hixie> (certainly after whatwg)
  201. # [04:47] <Hixie> i (and others) pushed to make webapi and waf and webapps more open quite a lot
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  206. # [05:21] <roc> SVG is getting a bit more open
  207. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is the value of the iframe "name" attribute allowed to be empty? and/or is a browsing context name allowed to be an empty string? I ask because v.nu doesn't require it to be. And not by accident. For whatever reason, Henri intentionally coded it that way.
  208. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> And fwiw, I note that in HTML4, it was defined as CDATA, with no constraints on its length.
  209. # [05:26] * Hixie looks
  210. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie: Spec currently has, "A valid browsing context name is any string with at least one character that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character."
  211. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> at least one character
  212. # [05:27] <Hixie> yup, was about to paste that
  213. # [05:27] <Hixie> spec seems clear
  214. # [05:27] <Hixie> can't be empty
  215. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> OK
  216. # [05:27] * MikeSmith goes to file a v.nu bug
  217. # [05:27] <Hixie> mathematically, if i negate -1, do i get -1 or +1 ?
  218. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> um, +1
  219. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> was that some kind of knock-knock joke?
  220. # [05:28] <Hixie> ok, good
  221. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> to get me to say +1 ?
  222. # [05:28] <Hixie> i was just checking that "negate x" doesn't mean "-abs(x)" but means "-x"
  223. # [05:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think web api wg was originally created before html wg
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  226. # [05:45] <Lachy> Hixie, FYI, webapi and waf started at the end of 2005. HTMLWG officially started on March 7th 2007
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  228. # [05:46] <othermaciej> the merged webapps wg follows mostly open process afaict
  229. # [05:46] <othermaciej> the member-only list is almost never used
  230. # [05:48] * Lachy hopes his last mail to public-html makes John, or at least rubys, realise how silly the approach being pushed to deal with @summary is
  231. # [05:50] <Hixie> the things that bug me about this thread:
  232. # [05:51] <othermaciej> honestly, I don't even care about voting on it, but if we're going to have a vote, I'd like to have one where we actually make a decision on the issue, rather than a rushed one to make a temporary patch to a Working Draft
  233. # [05:51] <othermaciej> a vote that Sam has been asked to hold and has failed to so far
  234. # [05:51] <Hixie> 1. john keeps saying that html5 says what i want it to say... but i want summary="" out altogether, which html5 doesn't say, so how is it my opinion??
  235. # [05:51] <Hixie> 2. john keeps saying we should work with the pfwg, but as i explained, the pfwg refused to reply to my e-mails! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0056.html
  236. # [05:52] <Hixie> 3. john hasn't given one shred of valid reasoning for keeping summary="", and has not provided any data at all
  237. # [05:52] <Hixie> 4. we're exactly following the process (editor makes proposals out of the blue), and he complains that this isn't the process
  238. # [05:52] <othermaciej> side note: I'm looking at implementing trivial HTML5 elements like <nav> in WebKit
  239. # [05:53] <Hixie> 5. i'm doing exactly what i said i'd do in terms of writing those proposals (use reasoning and research)
  240. # [05:53] <othermaciej> what would be appropriate test cases, besides checking the default styling?
  241. # [05:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: for <nav>, check that voiceover skips past it (assuming voiceover has "skip navigation" features)
  242. # [05:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: parsing should be checked too
  243. # [05:54] <othermaciej> I'm not sure VoiceOver has such a feature yet
  244. # [05:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh and HTMLSectionElement has a .cite DOM attribute
  245. # [05:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: are there special parsing requirements for these elements? should I be testing cases where they are misnested?
  246. # [05:54] <Hixie> other than that, i don't think anything in particular
  247. # [05:54] <othermaciej> I did notice that section and article have IDL interfaces
  248. # [05:54] <Lachy> Hixie, what bothers me more is that rubys is encouraging it!
  249. # [05:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: for parsing, they're like <div> iirc
  250. # [05:55] <othermaciej> Lachy: indeed, Sam does not seem to have done anything to actually resolve the issue
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  252. # [05:56] <Lachy> oh, regarding sectioning elements and headings, I'm a little concerned that since we've started seeing a lot of early adopters, trying to implement the default sizing for h1 based on nesting level may prove problematic
  253. # [05:56] <Lachy> I haven' tested this out though, but it would be worth looking into
  254. # [05:56] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think I know how to make them parse like <div>, but I'm not sure what edge cases to test
  255. # [05:56] <Hixie> in parsing? dunno
  256. # [05:57] <Hixie> other than that, i don't think there really are any edge cases
  257. # [05:57] <othermaciej> I guess I should check that <p> doesn't close it, and that unclosed <b> or <i> or whatever behaves like it does for div
  258. # [05:57] <Hixie> yeah
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  260. # [05:58] <othermaciej> Lachy: my intent was to initially add the various sectioning elements so they are recognized by the engine, and then have a separate task to implement the header sizing rule
  261. # [05:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: specifically I'm thinking of adding a -webkit-section-depth(n) pseudo-class or something like that
  262. # [05:59] <othermaciej> (I think the pseudo-class could be useful even if applying different sizes by default turns out to be impractical)
  263. # [05:59] <Lachy> I'd make it :-webkit-heading(n)
  264. # [06:00] <Lachy> IIRC, JQuery has a :heading(n) pseudo class and it would be worth developing something backwards compatible with that
  265. # [06:00] <Lachy> (I could have remembered the details about that wrong, though)
  266. # [06:01] <Lachy> but I need to go to bed and wake up in 3 hours, in order to take my MacBook in for repair (again!) and then get to work
  267. # [06:17] <othermaciej> how does JQuery's :heading(n) work?
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  281. # [07:43] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: are you around?
  282. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yep
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  291. # [08:30] * archtech is now known as archtec2
  292. # [08:30] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  293. # [08:30] <hsivonen> hi
  294. # [08:30] * Quits: archtec2 (n=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  295. # [08:32] <Hixie> you live!
  296. # [08:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: mere hours ago i hit my timeout on worrying that a devilish fate may have befallen you
  297. # [08:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: and asked around, only to learn you were on holiday until today :-P
  298. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: I said two weeks. I meant the adjacent weekends, too.
  299. # [08:33] <Hixie> i had forgotten that you had said anything
  300. # [08:33] <Hixie> i don't really keep track of where y'all are :-P
  301. # [08:33] <Hixie> btw i recommend not reading your e-mail
  302. # [08:33] <Hixie> for at least another week
  303. # [08:37] <hsivonen> Mail.app is so slow I may have to wait until next week for it to download and filter the pending email :-)
  304. # [08:38] <othermaciej> public-html has been making me a sad panda
  305. # [08:40] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@76.14.73.3)
  306. # [08:41] <othermaciej> hmm, implementing <nav> is trickier than I thought...
  307. # [08:42] <Hixie> really?
  308. # [08:42] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what's there to implement other than </p> inference, default style and exposure to VoiceOver?
  309. # [08:42] <othermaciej> I thought it would be trivial but I'm clearly messing something up
  310. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hey!
  311. # [08:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hi
  312. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> was kind of worried about you.. nobody seemed to know where you were, or if you were on vacation or what. Until earlier today, Hixie heard from somebody I guess
  313. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> anyway, glad you're back
  314. # [08:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry, I guess I should have broadcast my schedule more widely
  315. # [08:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I left an /away message on IRC, but the server running my irssi got rebooted
  316. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> ah
  317. # [09:00] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
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  322. # [09:07] <annevk> othermaciej, new elements also imply </p> I think
  323. # [09:07] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-114-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  324. # [09:08] <othermaciej> annevk: my attempted code change (which I thought was trivial) should imply </p> through the same mechanism that <div> does
  325. # [09:08] <othermaciej> but I'm not getting the <nav> elements in the DOM for some reason
  326. # [09:08] <othermaciej> need to debug
  327. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how much work would it be to take make a standalone binary utility based on the v.nu/whattf HTML5 datatype library?
  328. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> would it be practical at all to try to do so?
  329. # [09:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean a .jar that anyone could load into Jing or MSV?
  330. # [09:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or a utility that includes Jing, too?
  331. # [09:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you should copy <address>, not <div>
  332. # [09:13] <annevk> afaict it is identical to <div> apart from foreign content mode
  333. # [09:13] <hsivonen> <div> is scoping
  334. # [09:13] * hsivonen checks if address is
  335. # [09:13] <othermaciej> <address> and <div> have different WebKit parsing behavior in a way that I don't actually understand at the moment
  336. # [09:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as far as I can tell, the new structural elements have the exact same tree builder dispatch bits as <address>
  337. # [09:16] <hsivonen> (by inspection of code I've written earlier, not by inspecting the spec)
  338. # [09:18] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/company-home/ probably shouldn't use flags for languages (in order to be a politically correct good example)
  339. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: at the risk of making clear how little I understand about the v.nu architecture, I have to ask, Does the datatype library have a dependency on Jing?
  340. # [09:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it doesn't
  341. # [09:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Jing and MSV share interfaces for this stuff, so the datatype library depends on those shared interfaces
  342. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, so to give you the context for why I'm asking: I would like to have something that could be used with rnv
  343. # [09:25] <hsivonen> rnv is C, right?
  344. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> yeah, but it has this simple mechanism where you can have it delegate datatype-checking to another command-lined application
  345. # [09:25] <hsivonen> and it has Scheme and stdin/out datatype lib interfaces, IIRC
  346. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> right
  347. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I'm talking about the stdin interface
  348. # [09:26] <hsivonen> it should be possible to write a command-line wrapper host that can hold any Java datatype library
  349. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> OK
  350. # [09:26] <hsivonen> and then compile the HTML5 datatype lib with that host using GCJ to eliminate the JVM startup overhead
  351. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> right, that's what I had in mind
  352. # [09:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://iso-relax.sourceforge.net/
  353. # [09:27] * MikeSmith looks
  354. # [09:27] <hsivonen> that's the SourceForge copy of the shared interfaces
  355. # [09:28] <hsivonen> oops. maybe I have the wrong URL. sorry
  356. # [09:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://sourceforge.net/projects/relaxng/
  357. # [09:28] <hsivonen> that's the one
  358. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  359. # [09:29] <hsivonen> http://sourceforge.net/projects/relaxng/files/datatype%20%28java%29/Ver.1.0/relaxngDatatype-1.0.zip/download
  360. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yep, found it -- thanks
  361. # [09:33] <othermaciej> I think I figured out what I did wrong in implementing
  362. # [09:33] <othermaciej> I had to hook up a few more places
  363. # [09:34] * hsivonen wishes Apple shipped GCJ along with the GCC pieces that Apple ships
  364. # [09:35] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  365. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Darxus: If you have a DTD-valid XML 1.0 file that doesn't use Namespaces, you can process it as SGML if your SGML pipeline implements Annex K, IIRC.
  366. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you're scaring me with this stuff
  367. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> what the hell is Annex K?
  368. # [09:40] <othermaciej> sweet, got it working
  369. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's an annex they made to SGML in order to make XML a subset of SGML
  370. # [09:40] <othermaciej> just have to make tests now
  371. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah
  372. # [09:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, it adds the <foo/> stuff to SGML
  373. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> I see
  374. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> so next I'm wondering what Darxus would want to process a document as SGML
  375. # [09:42] <hsivonen> XML processing isn't a subset of SGML processing, though, so the Right Thing happens if the input document is already known to be error-free
  376. # [09:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: does a browser implement input type=color already?
  377. # [09:48] <annevk> not as far as I know
  378. # [09:48] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-112-102.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  379. # [09:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think HTML5 shouldn't be silent about mutation events when it comes to the parser, innerHTML and document.open(). But I'd be OK with saying that mutation events aren't required, but if they are implemented, they need to fire / not fire so and so
  380. # [09:53] <annevk> I think we're waiting for DOM3Events
  381. # [09:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
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  384. # [10:05] <annevk> MikeSmith, while going through some of the older blog entries to see if additional template tweaks are needed I found http://blog.whatwg.org/vim-checker and it seems that the image is no longer there
  385. # [10:05] * MikeSmith looks
  386. # [10:06] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@2001:470:18:88:0:0:0:2)
  387. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, it's great to have that new design
  388. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> it's like night and day
  389. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> looks like a real blog now :)
  390. # [10:08] <annevk> yeah, couple of days ago I suddenly remembered we actually had a design proposed but never implemented it :)
  391. # [10:09] <hsivonen> grr. someone is *still* sending shockwaves to my office, and I'm unable to locate a construction site with explosives nearby
  392. # [10:12] * hsivonen already hoisted remaining hard disks onto rubber footing. no idea if that helps with this kind of shocks
  393. # [10:14] <othermaciej> I'm surprised at the number of separate places I had to change in WebKit to add a new HTML element
  394. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (6 to be exact)
  395. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, thanks for the heads-up. I just deleted the img and the paragraph that preceded it
  396. # [10:20] <hsivonen> I wonder if I were able to tell a mac and a readynas to sleep disks without turning them off
  397. # [10:20] <hsivonen> if I knew when the next shockwave hits
  398. # [10:21] <hsivonen> yet another problem that solid-state storage would solve
  399. # [10:22] <Philip`> You could suspend the disks from springs
  400. # [10:23] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  401. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: has anyone productized a spring-base NAS-holder that I could buy?
  402. # [10:23] <Philip`> You could suspend the NAS-holder from springs
  403. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I want a productized spring-suspender
  404. # [10:24] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
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  406. # [10:25] * Philip` got an external disk recently and it came with stretchy rubber things around each end, but he isn't quite sure what effect they're meant to have
  407. # [10:28] <hsivonen> I bought the softest erasers I could find and placed 4 under the NAS and four under the Mac
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  412. # [10:51] * jgraham wonders what excitement he has missed
  413. # [10:52] <annevk> since?
  414. # [10:52] <jgraham> 17th July
  415. # [10:52] <annevk> heh, your vacation is in sync with hsivonen's
  416. # [10:53] <annevk> we put up a new design for the blog
  417. # [10:53] <annevk> other than that there's been a lot of process bs email
  418. # [10:54] <jgraham> who would have guessed?
  419. # [10:54] <jgraham> The blog looks much better :)
  420. # [10:54] <jgraham> Although the green of the bar clashes with the green of the title
  421. # [10:58] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-mgqrwkqgeuljapca)
  422. # [10:59] * hsivonen hasn't read list email yet, but from subject lines, it seems it has been another round of accessibility and RDFa :-(
  423. # [11:00] <gsnedders> And process. A lot of process.
  424. # [11:00] <eighty4> gsnedders: entertain me?
  425. # [11:01] <gsnedders> eighty4: Go read public-html.
  426. # [11:03] <eighty4> I don't want to read public-html
  427. # [11:03] <eighty4> :(
  428. # [11:03] <jgraham> ^ That should be the /topic ;)
  429. # [11:04] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  430. # [11:04] * eighty4 is grinig
  431. # [11:08] * gsnedders sighs at his Monday mornings, always spent catching up on public-html(-.*)? and whatwg, always full of process discussions
  432. # [11:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: for mutation events i'm waiting to learn if they're changing at all before saying anything
  433. # [11:15] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
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  435. # [11:21] <roc> jgraham: WAI merged with PETA, we are now considering cross-species accessibility requirements
  436. # [11:22] <jgraham> roc: now people are giving me strage looks in the office
  437. # [11:23] * gsnedders looks innocent
  438. # [11:23] <gsnedders> But seriously, jgraham, if you do laugh with a facial expression like that…
  439. # [11:27] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  440. # [11:28] <hsivonen> wow. fielding committed unregistered types to mime.types
  441. # [11:28] <jgraham> That's my special facial expression I reserve for painfully funny things
  442. # [11:32] * Philip` discovered http://www.peta.org/sea_kittens/about.asp recently, and found it hard to tell whether it was real or a parody
  443. # [11:33] <gsnedders> LOL
  444. # [11:35] <annevk> 'But if you call fish "sea kittens," maybe people will be nicer to them.' ...
  445. # [11:36] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  446. # [11:36] <eighty4> gsnedders: flickr a photo of jgraham laughting?
  447. # [11:37] * jgraham is not /still/ laughing
  448. # [11:37] <gsnedders> I have neither a camera nor a jgraham who is laughing.
  449. # [11:37] <Philip`> Surely you could find a devilish scheme to make him laugh
  450. # [11:38] <gsnedders> Sadly I don't think I'm witty enough.
  451. # [11:38] <eighty4> I'd be willing to help
  452. # [11:38] <Philip`> You could try tickling him
  453. # [11:39] <Philip`> though people might start giving you strange looks
  454. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: or I guess better yet, it would be grand to have a jing command-line binary that had the v.nu HTML5 datatype library built-in
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  461. # [12:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that should be easy
  462. # [12:18] <annevk> Hixie, "just register those" >.5M USD or so
  463. # [12:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I *think* the steps are: 1) take a Jing binary, 2) add the datatype lib jar to the same directory that holds Saxon, 3) edit the manifest of the main .jar to point to the datatype lib jar the same way it points to the saxon jar
  464. # [12:18] <Hixie> yeah that's why it was parenthetical with a "!" :-)
  465. # [12:19] * hsivonen found out who is blowing up stuff inside the hill that my office is on
  466. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hill trolls?
  467. # [12:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nope. looks like en energy company is expanding its tunnels
  468. # [12:20] <jgraham> Does finland have trolls?
  469. # [12:22] <jgraham> Apparently in Iceland, so many people believe in "hidden people" (i.e. some sort of faerie or so) that they had to divert the main ringroad round the island several times to avoid areas where they were believed to live
  470. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> jgraham: Moomin
  471. # [12:23] <Hixie> isn't that a big white bulbous guy
  472. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Moomins live in a wooden house, not inside bedrock, though
  473. # [12:23] <Hixie> sweet i was right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin
  474. # [12:24] <jgraham> Moomins are awesome but I can't imagine them blowing up a hill
  475. # [12:24] <Hixie> lol
  476. # [12:24] * Joins: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75)
  477. # [12:24] <Hixie> we're getting far more useless bug reports than i expected
  478. # [12:24] <Hixie> there's even a prompt now confirming intent to submit
  479. # [12:25] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  480. # [12:26] <hsivonen> sigh. they are building a tunnel that is going to be long
  481. # [12:26] <hsivonen> I guess they aren't going to stop soon
  482. # [12:26] <Hixie> you could go politely ask them to
  483. # [12:26] <Philip`> I suppose a shorter tunnel would be pretty useless
  484. # [12:26] <Hixie> "hi i'm sorry, would you mind putting your tunnel elsewhere?"
  485. # [12:27] * Quits: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  486. # [12:27] <jgraham> Perhaps if they tunneled somewhere with no hill it would be easier for everyone concerned
  487. # [12:28] * hsivonen thought these parts of the city were already connected with tunnels
  488. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe they are building tunnels under the existing tunnels
  489. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> that's what's done in Tokyo at least
  490. # [12:30] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@201.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no)
  491. # [12:30] <hsivonen> maybe
  492. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> for subways at least (in Tokyo) - the newer a subway line is, the taller the escalators
  493. # [12:31] <Hixie> london too, though none are newer than about 4 centuries
  494. # [12:31] <Hixie> (i may be exaggerating a little)
  495. # [12:31] <jgraham> Jubilee line extension
  496. # [12:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's not that deep in the Docklands :P
  497. # [12:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sure but it is also rather new
  498. # [12:32] <gsnedders> True
  499. # [12:32] <gsnedders> The Jubilee is deep in the centre though
  500. # [12:33] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  501. # [12:33] <hsivonen> apparently this one is for electricity, water and central heating
  502. # [12:33] * gsnedders remembers getting out of the Northern at some station in the centre, only to find the elevator had broken
  503. # [12:33] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  504. # [12:37] <Philip`> An elevator at a station?
  505. # [12:37] <gsnedders> On underground lines, yes.
  506. # [12:37] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@83.85.115.44) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  507. # [12:38] <Philip`> I thought they just had escalators
  508. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Not the deep level lines
  509. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Some stations on the deep level lines have elevators and stairs, nothing else.
  510. # [12:39] <Philip`> Ah
  511. # [12:39] * Philip` is not an expert in train journeying
  512. # [12:39] <gsnedders> Russell Square is one such station, IIRC
  513. # [12:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, get out, see Europe!
  514. # [12:40] <Philip`> I think they should use pneumatic tubes to shoot people up to ground level
  515. # [12:41] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  516. # [12:42] <Hixie> not if the british run it they shouldn't
  517. # [12:42] * Parts: annevk42 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  518. # [12:42] <Hixie> they'd underfund maintenance and people would be shot out at killed every other week
  519. # [12:42] <Hixie> or, more likely, it'd be perpetually out of service
  520. # [12:43] <gsnedders> There was some circular escalator built for some underground station, IIRC
  521. # [12:43] <gsnedders> The only one ever build.
  522. # [12:43] <gsnedders> *built
  523. # [12:43] <gsnedders> It always had issues, and was shut soon after being installed.
  524. # [12:45] <gsnedders> http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=History&action=display&thread=2596&page=1
  525. # [12:47] <gsnedders> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6182967.stm
  526. # [12:48] <Philip`> When I went in to work last week, a staircase was taped off and had a sign saying it was "out of service" and "engineers are investigating" (which was clearly untrue because nobody was even looking at it)
  527. # [12:49] <Philip`> (The lifts have been broken for a month, but I got an email today saying one was back in service)
  528. # [12:49] <gsnedders> http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Holloway_Road_station.html is what I originally saw about it
  529. # [12:50] <gsnedders> Anyhow, enough procrastinating
  530. # [12:52] <jgraham> Covent Garden tube station has a lift and steps
  531. # [12:52] <jgraham> I think Cambden Town might too
  532. # [12:52] <jgraham> *Camden
  533. # [12:52] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  534. # [12:57] <jgraham> Disappointingly the depth of tube lines seems to be considered security sensitive information and as such there are no 3D tube maps showing depth avaliable
  535. # [12:57] <Philip`> Hmm, spiral escalator? Maybe they could make one that's a rotating corkscrew, continually lifting people upwards
  536. # [12:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Camden Town doesn't.
  537. # [12:59] <gsnedders> Actually, I think it does.
  538. # [12:59] <hsivonen> is the square border around the whatwg logo in the new blog design intentional?
  539. # [12:59] <gsnedders> It's just that it's only 40 or so steps, so it isn't that deep, so most people just use them, as the lifts are really slow
  540. # [12:59] <gsnedders> Same at Mornington Cresent
  541. # [12:59] <Hixie> you can't win that game in one step! cheater!
  542. # [13:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: It might be that nobody tested the blog in Firefox
  543. # [13:00] <jgraham> Hixie: Huh? He got there from Camden town
  544. # [13:01] <Hixie> ah ok then
  545. # [13:01] <gsnedders> Besides, I had to walk all the way from the elevator to the platform
  546. # [13:01] * gsnedders remembers he has an Oyster card back in his apartment, and wonders how much money is still on that
  547. # [13:02] * gsnedders remembers he also has a single BVG ticket for Berlin in his apartment
  548. # [13:02] <gsnedders> They seem highly useful things to have here
  549. # [13:06] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  550. # [13:13] <annevk42> weird
  551. # [13:13] <annevk42> Chromium for linux now no longer uses the platform Chrome
  552. # [13:14] <gsnedders> Yeah, that changed over the weekend
  553. # [13:14] <gsnedders> I don't think it is so much that, but they changed their default skin
  554. # [13:17] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121.74.154.139)
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  556. # [13:19] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  557. # [13:21] * gsnedders never ceases to be amazed at how easy it is to get IE to crash
  558. # [13:22] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  559. # [13:28] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-mgqrwkqgeuljapca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  560. # [13:32] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  561. # [13:32] <zcorpan> omg the blog uses <cite> incorrectly!
  562. # [13:33] <hsivonen> the easy way to avoid using <cite> incorrectly is to use <i> where italics are appropriate
  563. # [13:33] <Hixie> i fixed the spec to use <i> all over the place recently
  564. # [13:33] <Hixie> instead of <em> and various other mistakes
  565. # [13:34] <annevk42> the blog uses <cite>?
  566. # [13:34] <hsivonen> I still use <cite> and <em> out of an old habit. perhaps I should start getting used to <i>
  567. # [13:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: You probably ought to stop misusing @title sometime
  568. # [13:34] <zcorpan> <cite class="fn"><a href='http://www.brucelawson.co.uk' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>bruce</a></cite> <span class="says">says:</span>
  569. # [13:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: pah :-)
  570. # [13:35] <Hixie> gsnedders: fixing that would be horrifically painful
  571. # [13:35] <Hixie> gsnedders: and would be a problem with the w3c until they get their [censored] and let us use html5
  572. # [13:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: hehe
  573. # [13:35] <gsnedders> I guess you could change the conformance criteria to make it conforming, as that'd be easier :P
  574. # [13:35] * zcorpan suggests "<a href='http://www.brucelawson.co.uk'>bruce</a> says:"
  575. # [13:36] <Hixie> ok i have to go to bed before hte birds start singing
  576. # [13:36] <Hixie> nn
  577. # [13:36] <hsivonen> nn
  578. # [13:36] <gsnedders> nn
  579. # [13:38] <adactio> <cite class="vcard"><a href="http://brucelawson.co.uk" class="url fn" rel="external colleague">Bruce</a></cite>
  580. # [13:38] <annevk42> adactio, the complaint was that <cite> is incorrect
  581. # [13:38] <adactio> That's a common usage of cite on my part.
  582. # [13:38] <annevk42> in other news, changing that seems annoying
  583. # [13:38] <adactio> I'm going to continue to use it that way even if HTML5 says otherwise.
  584. # [13:39] <annevk42> all I have i: <ol class="commentlist"><?php wp_list_comments(); ?></ol> ...
  585. # [13:39] <hsivonen> adactio: using <cite> for personal names goes against the intent of HTML 2.0 founding fathers
  586. # [13:39] <adactio> Just as specifying something that browser makers won't implement is fiction, specifying something that authors refuse to adhere to is equally fiction.
  587. # [13:39] <hsivonen> adactio: HTML 4 corrupted <cite>
  588. # [13:40] <adactio> hsivonen: I disagree. HTML4 embraced and extended <cite> ;-)
  589. # [13:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: HTML 4 accounts for the majority of time HTML has existed
  590. # [13:40] <adactio> You could say that HTML5 is corrupting <legend> but I prefer to think of it a smart extension of an existing element ...just like HTML4 did with <cite>.
  591. # [13:41] <hsivonen> I'm not a fan of the way HTML5 uses <legend>, but the English thesaurus is exhausted
  592. # [13:42] <zcorpan> maybe we should switch to another language
  593. # [13:42] <hsivonen> both <legend> and <caption> come with legacy parsing baggage
  594. # [13:42] <Lachy> <legend> has practical problems that haven't yet been resolved too
  595. # [13:42] <Lachy> but we've yet to find a reasonable alternative
  596. # [13:42] <zcorpan> otoh, getting <legend> to work nicely in browsers will be a welcome change for web developers
  597. # [13:42] <hsivonen> if we can get authors to use <rubric>, let's go for it
  598. # [13:44] <Lachy> I'm not sure how well <rubric> would be accepted in practice. I'm quite sure most people, even native English speakers, wouldn't know what it meant
  599. # [13:46] <Lachy> Caption Synonyms: explanation, head, inscription, legend, rubric, subtitle, title, underline
  600. # [13:46] <Lachy> of those, explanation (or explain) seems like the only remotely reasonable alternative, given compat issues
  601. # [13:48] <jgraham> <rubric> would be highly confusing to most native english speakers
  602. # [13:48] <adactio> It's challenging to think of something that works equally well for <figure> and <details>.
  603. # [13:48] <Lachy> anyway, as for cite, adactio has a point. If authors are going to ignore what the spec actually says in favour of what they want to use it for, then the spec is just fiction
  604. # [13:49] <jgraham> since the only time it ius used in common parlance it means the instructions on an examination paper
  605. # [13:49] <adactio> Lachy: I could always twist the wording of the spec to suit my needs. If the spec says <cite> must only be used for "title of work", I'll use it to mark up a person as long as that person is "a real piece of work" ;-)
  606. # [13:50] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-vuhttnqcxjqsibkr)
  607. # [13:50] <Lachy> about about we just go with <c> and say it means caption
  608. # [13:50] * jgraham wonders if anyone has ever derived any value from the use of the <cite> element
  609. # [13:50] <Lachy> s/about about/how about/
  610. # [13:51] <jgraham> Lachy: Hixie's main objection is making up any other element name not just the exact name
  611. # [13:51] <adactio> jgraham: there's the W3C semantic data extractor which picks up uses of the <cite> element but I wouldn't exactly call that a practical use.
  612. # [13:51] <hsivonen> the short non-fiction version is that <i>, <em>, <cite> and <var> mean italics. <b> and <strong> mean bold and <tt>, <code>, <kbd> and <samp> mean monospace
  613. # [13:51] <Lachy> jgraham, the only value is for the author as it allows for styling without relying on class names to distinguish among different uses of italics
  614. # [13:52] <adactio> hsivoven: I use <cite> (in pretty much every blog post I write) and I don't style it to be italic.
  615. # [13:52] <Lachy> adactio, a semantic data extractor is not a useful tool by itself. Unless it were used for some real purpose in some application, it's little more than an interesting experiment
  616. # [13:53] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-201-53.bredband.comhem.se)
  617. # [13:53] <jgraham> adactio: Real question: do you think using <cite> in that way is advantageous over using <i>?
  618. # [13:53] <adactio> Lachy: agreed; that's why I said it wasn't exactly a practical use. A more practical use would be auto-generated (with JavaScript) footnotes and references.
  619. # [13:53] <jgraham> (and restyling it)
  620. # [13:53] <jgraham> (or <span>)
  621. # [13:54] <Lachy> jgraham, if that's Hixie's only objection, it seems pretty weak considering the problems with <legend>
  622. # [13:54] <jgraham> Lachy: agreed
  623. # [13:54] <gsnedders> adactio: You might, but the vast majority of use makes the small amount of semantic use of it more or less irrelevant in terms of real usage
  624. # [13:55] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-vuhttnqcxjqsibkr) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  625. # [13:55] <annevk42> it's not that weak imo
  626. # [13:55] <annevk42> in a few years <legend> issues will go away
  627. # [13:55] <adactio> jgraham: yes, for the same reason that using <p> to mark up a paragraph of text is better than using <br>s ...or why it makes sense to mark up navigation in a <ul> or <ol> rather than simply a <div> ...authors should be free to use the most *semantically* suitable element. It has *nothing* to do with styling (italics, bullet points, whatever).
  628. # [13:55] <annevk42> before <details> is properly supported will also take some time
  629. # [13:55] <Lachy> annevk42, legend issues have been known about since at least Firefox 2.0, and still after 2 major release cycles, still nothing has been done about it
  630. # [13:56] <jgraham> annevk42: How many years compared to the timescale for deployment of <figure>?
  631. # [13:56] <annevk42> Lachy, actually some fixes have been made
  632. # [13:56] <Lachy> not in Firefox 3.5. Is it fixed in Minefield?
  633. # [13:56] <annevk42> I said some
  634. # [13:56] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-vuhttnqcxjqsibkr)
  635. # [13:56] <jgraham> (afaict the timescale for the deployment of <figure> is "next major browser release of several browsers")
  636. # [13:57] <annevk42> jgraham, I think before 2012 or so we shouldn't worry too much about this
  637. # [13:57] <hsivonen> adactio: are there content consumers who don't have prior agreement with you and whose software isn't specific to your site and who derive value from your use of <cite>?
  638. # [13:57] <jgraham> (<details> can be faked with js as long as you don't use legend)
  639. # [13:57] <annevk42> well, we should get browsers to support things better, but we should not be fixing the problem in the wrong place
  640. # [13:57] <Lachy> annevk42, since we're beginning to see a lot of early adopters, I think we should pay a little more attention to the problems now rather than later
  641. # [13:58] <annevk42> because in the end HTML5 requires <legend> to work just as well
  642. # [13:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: It's fixed in Minefield with HTML 5 parser enabled
  643. # [13:58] <Lachy> ok
  644. # [13:58] <jgraham> annevk42: Sure legend should be fixed but blocking several unrelated things on that seems like a bad idea, especially if they are useful
  645. # [13:58] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-vuhttnqcxjqsibkr) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  646. # [13:59] <adactio> hsivonen: no, and there are no content consumers who derive use of my use of <p> or <ul> or most other elements ...but they're *still* the right elements to use. If the only argument for using an element is end practical end benefit, we need nothing more than <div> and <span>.
  647. # [13:59] <annevk42> jgraham, it just delays experimentation a little bit, and you can always experiment by just using a <div> instead
  648. # [13:59] <annevk42> jgraham, before 2012 wide-scale deployment is not really an option anyway
  649. # [14:00] <Lachy> adactio, that's not true. Assistive technology derives value from the correct use of <ul>, and, to some extent, <p>
  650. # [14:00] <jgraham> adactio: I disagree. There are several other styling-unrelated reasons for using things like lists and paragraphs. (I don't think I ever claimed that styling was the main reason for anything)
  651. # [14:00] <jgraham> AT is one obvious one. Improved source readability is another
  652. # [14:00] <adactio> jgraham: you didn't, but Hixie is arguing that on the list.
  653. # [14:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  658. # [14:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-vuhttnqcxjqsibkr)
  659. # [14:01] <Lachy> jgraham, improved source readability isn't really value for a consumer
  660. # [14:01] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
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  665. # [14:01] <Lachy> unless you count the geeks who look at the source of every site they visit
  666. # [14:01] <jgraham> Lachy: I didn't just ask about consumer value
  667. # [14:02] <jgraham> Saying "I use <cite> because it makes my pages easier to maintain" seems valid to me
  668. # [14:02] <Lachy> jgraham, I thought what you said was related to hsivonen's question about content consumers deriving value from markup
  669. # [14:03] <jgraham> I wonder if google makes use of <cite>. I guess it does but only as part of a more complex set of heuristics
  670. # [14:04] * Parts: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@201.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  671. # [14:04] <hsivonen> adactio: whether <ul> is useful depends on whether one wants to keep HTML processable without access to computed style for the screen media
  672. # [14:04] <jgraham> But maybe explicit markup like that makes automatic extraction of author names from e.g. Google scholar work better
  673. # [14:04] * Quits: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@89.127.177.75) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  674. # [14:07] <adactio> I use the <cite> element (and every other element for that matter) for the same reason that I choose the particular quotation marks, em dashes, en dashes, ellipses or semi-colons. As an author, I want to choose the most appropriate structure for my content. That means I choose the most appropriate punctuation and the most semantically appropriate markup. That may bring me no practical benefit (yet) but I will still do it
  675. # [14:08] <hsivonen> quotes as dashes have immediate appeal to humans browsing content
  676. # [14:08] * jgraham chooses the right punctuation to improve readability and typography which seem like very immediate obvious and practical benefits
  677. # [14:08] <hsivonen> computed style is similar
  678. # [14:08] <hsivonen> how computed style comes about is different
  679. # [14:11] <adactio> hsivonen: yes, but when it comes to *which* punctuation to use, it's author preference: do I use a semi-colon or an em-dash to separate a subclause? Do I use a colon or an ellipsis? I choose what I feel is most appropriate. Same with semantics. I have a choice of elements and I choose the one I think is most appropriate for the content. My decision. Not Hixie's. I will continue to choose the semantically appropriate eleme
  680. # [14:13] <hsivonen> adactio: I think how people arrange their selectors is a private choice. I think semanticsare useful for interchange
  681. # [14:13] <jgraham> Hmm isn't semantics about _shared_ meanings. It seems a little Alice-in-wonderland to say "when I use elements thwey mean just what I chose them to mean"
  682. # [14:13] <hsivonen> so semantics that aren't for interchange aren't different from non-microformat class names
  683. # [14:14] * jgraham is not giving this conversation as much attention as it requires to do the topic justice
  684. # [14:14] <Lachy> adactio, while authors do have some freedom with regards to the punctuation they choose to use, they are generally used according to the grammatic rules of the language.
  685. # [14:14] <Lachy> You don't, for example, randomly! use, punctuation throughout @ a sentence? do you%
  686. # [14:15] <jgraham> Unless you are writing perl
  687. # [14:15] <adactio> But I'm not alone. In fact, I'm going along with the HTML4 definition of <cite>. If HTML5 chooses to revert that decision, that doesn't mean that authors will go along with it. That particular part of the spec becomes fiction precisely because it isn't documenting the *shared* meaning of an element.
  688. # [14:15] <adactio> Lachy: re-read what I said about specific cases: semi-colons vs. em-dashes, colons vs. ellipses.
  689. # [14:16] <Lachy> jgraham, if you're writing perl, you're still adhering to the grammatic and syntactic rules of the language
  690. # [14:17] <hsivonen> adactio: I see your point, but <cite> is still private even if a lot of authors do it if the choice of element matter for their own selectors and not to loosely-coupled consumers
  691. # [14:17] <Lachy> adactio, semi-colons, em-dashes, colons and ellipses have distinct purposes. They are not directly interchangeable.
  692. # [14:17] <hsivonen> (a lot of the prescriptive semantics for inline elements are over-precise to be descriptive)
  693. # [14:18] <adactio> Lachy: some authors use a semi-colon where I would use an em-dash and visa-versa. Neither of us is wrong.
  694. # [14:18] <gsnedders> adactio: The meanings of blockquote and h1 are fiction too, as to be real they'd need to "indent" and "bold". Should we change that too so the spec isn't fiction?
  695. # [14:19] <Lachy> adactio, not everyone uses punctuation correctly in all cases.
  696. # [14:20] <jgraham> Lachy: I think you are wrong about punctuation. There are style guides but natural language is really not prescriptivist
  697. # [14:20] <jgraham> As long as people think that you are using things in the right way then it is valid usage
  698. # [14:20] <adactio> gsnedders: I think you are inferring the exact opposite of what I'm saying. According to Hixie's logic with <cite> (that it is only used to italicise) then yes, <blockquote> should only be used to indent. I'm arguing the opposite. That the semantic meaning is important, not the styling.
  699. # [14:21] <gsnedders> adactio: You're arguing the spec is fiction if it does not match reality too, and I'm pointing out more examples where it does not.
  700. # [14:21] <hsivonen> If I were redesigning HTML from scratch knowing what I know now, I wouldn't put <cite>, <em>, <var>, <strong>, <code>, <kbd> and <samp> in the language
  701. # [14:21] <gsnedders> adactio: And those two examples I gave have presentation semantics in reality
  702. # [14:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is not fair. Headings are often (but not always) used correctly
  703. # [14:22] <hsivonen> adactio: you have discovered that Hixie is more willing to deviate form "reality" into fiction when it comes to things that aren't browser-implementation-relevant
  704. # [14:22] <jgraham> same as tables
  705. # [14:23] <jgraham> Blockquote I don;t know about
  706. # [14:23] <hsivonen> adactio: browser implementation reqs are the most reality-based and the non-machine-detectable conformance reqs are the least reality based parts of the spec
  707. # [14:23] <adactio> Let me give you another example of author choice, one that comes up a lot on web dev blogs. Suppose you're marking up a <form>. What element do you use to contain your form field and your <label>? Some authors use <div>s. Some authors use <p>s. Some authors use <li>s. We could argue (we have argued) about which is the most appropriate but in the end, it's author choice. The HTML spec shouldn't dictate that level of usage
  708. # [14:24] <Lachy> jgraham, to some extent yes, but there are still grammatical rules that exist and which should be adhered to
  709. # [14:25] <jgraham> adactio: I agree with that totally. Unless there are practical reasons for using one over another e.g. the effect in actual client applications
  710. # [14:25] <jgraham> e.g. tables would likely be treated differently in AT to <p>
  711. # [14:25] <jgraham> and possibly be harder to navigate
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  713. # [14:26] <adactio> hsivonen: I think that's a good way to split features: features that need work from browsers vs. features that only need authors to buy in to. What I'm saying is that just as browser buy-in is required for the first type of feature, author buy-in is required for the second. So mandating something in the spec that authors don't agree with (and therefore won't abide by) is as pointless as mandating something that browsers w
  714. # [14:27] <Philip`> adactio: (Got cut off after "that browsers w")
  715. # [14:27] <adactio> will never implement.
  716. # [14:27] <hsivonen> adactio: I tend to agree, although I personally dislike the use of <cite> for anything but the title of work concept
  717. # [14:27] <adactio> hsivonen: and you, as an author, are free to only use it for titles of work.
  718. # [14:28] <hsivonen> eww. making innerHTML setter block network and event loop seems evil
  719. # [14:28] <hsivonen> s/block/block on/
  720. # [14:29] <hsivonen> I'm shocked it has even been proposed
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  734. # [15:29] <Lachy> woah, Rubys has now said flat out that Hixie should accept John's changes and move on! WTF?
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  737. # [15:35] <Dashiva> Reading about <cite> led me to @cite, which made me wonder if no one in the RDF circles had tried to also let it accept a person URI instead of only a document URI
  738. # [15:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it was only proposed by Hixie as an attempt to be compatible with ie
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  741. # [15:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: btw gsnedders found an infinite loop in the html5 parser
  742. # [15:39] <zcorpan> hsivonen: something with <select>.innerHTML='<keygen>' iirc
  743. # [15:40] <webben> adactio: What is the point of features that only authors will buy into?
  744. # [15:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks.
  745. # [15:40] <adactio> webben: what is the point of features that authors won't buy into?
  746. # [15:41] <webben> adactio: Very little.
  747. # [15:41] <adactio> webben: agreed.
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  756. # [15:43] <webben> adactio: My point is that the effect on the user experience is what matters (or at least, what should matter), for anything other than syntactic sugar.
  757. # [15:43] <Dashiva> Is there a one-liner about "author education" similar to "the tools will save us"?
  758. # [15:44] <zcorpan> Zeldman will save us
  759. # [15:44] <webben> So if different elements for wrapping form controls have an effect on the user experience, I don't see why HTML5 shouldn't have conformance criteria about it.
  760. # [15:44] <Dashiva> (and "search engines can use it")
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  763. # [15:45] <adactio> webben: so you aren't distinguishing between features that extend the platform (canvas, video, etc.) and features that extend the language (header, footer, cite). I think it's unwise to treat all features as being in the same class. There are clearly differences between browser features (which, as you say, directly effect the UX) and language features (which affect semantics ...invisible but still important).
  764. # [15:46] <webben> I think all semantic distinctions have a /potential/ effect on user agents.
  765. # [15:46] <adactio> webben: I certainly don't equate semantics with "syntactic sugar." HTML is a markup, not a programming, language (or, now with HTML5) it is a markup *and* a programming language.
  766. # [15:46] <webben> For example, screen readers offer keys for navigating list elements, tables, and "paragraphs" independently.
  767. # [15:46] <hsivonen> adactio: header and footer should be considered to extend the platform, IMO
  768. # [15:46] <hsivonen> adactio: as far as exposure to AT goes
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  770. # [15:48] <adactio> hsivoven: help me think of a better example of "extending the language" i.e. new semantics that don't require undue work from browser makers in order for authors to use them.
  771. # [15:48] <webben> adactio: I don't equate semantics with syntactic sugar. But the important thing about semantic features (as opposed to mere naming conventions) is that user agents can /do/ things with those semantics.
  772. # [15:48] <Dashiva> Was I the only one laughing when Sam assumed wcag had peer review?
  773. # [15:49] <Dashiva> I wasn't even involved in the process, but I still remember all the blog posts about how it ignored input and feedback
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  783. # [15:50] <adactio> webben: even naming conventions *can* be used by user agents (see: microformats) so I don't think there's such a clear distinction between semantics and naming conventions. Both can be potentially used by user agents.
  784. # [15:50] <webben> adactio: (My point about syntactic sugar is that unlike other features, it's only of interest to authors.)
  785. # [15:50] * jgraham guesses that Sam has never been a working scientist
  786. # [15:51] <gsnedders> Yes, yes, whatever you said Dr Graham
  787. # [15:51] <jgraham> Fuck off
  788. # [15:51] <webben> adactio: That's true, and to the extent that user agents can do things with them, it's appropriate for them to specified (see: microformat specs).
  789. # [15:51] <adactio> webben: I disagree. When enough authors agree on semantic usage, user agents can make use of that collective decision. Admittedly, this doesn't happen that often but it doesn't happen that often with regular elements either.
  790. # [15:51] <jgraham> :p
  791. # [15:51] <gsnedders> s/said/say/
  792. # [15:51] <Dashiva> Analogies to lumiferous aether and phlogiston come to mind
  793. # [15:51] <adactio> webben; the "I disagree" was for your previous comment, not what you just said which I agree with. :-)
  794. # [15:52] <gsnedders> I disagree.
  795. # [15:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://twitter.com/davidpaulsson/statuses/3103355788 - you need to relaunch v.nu for the wiki microsyntax changes to take effect
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  813. # [16:12] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/p/wp-basis-theme/source/browse/trunk/basis-html5/footer.php?spec=svn118&r=118
  814. # [16:14] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/p/wp-basis-theme/source/browse/trunk/basis-html5/header.php?spec=svn118&r=118
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  840. # [17:23] <Dashiva> So if Shelley's judgement of the anti-summary arguments is valid, what does that say about pro-summary which has even less data, even less reasoning
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  842. # [17:31] <Philip`> It's means they're on an equal footing
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  872. # [19:49] <Philip`> http://www.khronos.org/news/press/releases/khronos-releases-opengl-3.2-third-major-opengl-release-within-twelve-months/ - "... the new WebGL™ standard for 3D on the web ..."
  873. # [19:49] <Philip`> Seems to be the first time they've used that name, as far as I can see
  874. # [19:49] <Philip`> (presumably for the 3D canvas stuff)
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  877. # [19:51] <Philip`> http://www.tgdaily.com/images/stories/450teaser/opengl/openglslide1.jpg - HTML 5 is in there, plus an awful lot of arrows
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  879. # [19:52] <Philip`> http://www.tgdaily.com/images/stories/450teaser/opengl/openglslide2.jpg - "OpenGL 3.2 exposes the capability of DX 10.0 GPUs" - it seems kind of sad that they're using a competing 3D API's version numbers to refer to hardware capabilities
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  882. # [20:00] <Darxus> There is no way to say a page is in two languages?
  883. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> Darxus: you can put the lang attribute on individual elements
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  885. # [20:02] <Darxus> MikeSmith: Awesome, thanks.
  886. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> np
  887. # [20:03] <Philip`> What if you're marking up a multilingual pun which could be read in either language?
  888. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> Darxus: but don't ever trust anything I say until you get independent confirmation from a knowledgeable third party.
  889. # [20:03] <Darxus> Hehe.
  890. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: per Philip`s use-case, the lang attribute should clearly allow a list instead of a just a single language code
  891. # [20:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: n00b
  892. # [20:05] * MikeSmith prepares v.nu patch of lang datatype-checking, in anticipation of Hixie's spec change
  893. # [20:06] * gsnedders dreams of a simpler life
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  895. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: it's spelled n〇0b, you n〇0b
  896. # [20:09] <gsnedders> Sry
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  907. # [20:35] <tantekc> Hixie, Philip` I remember from past chats here that both of you have research that shows that the summary attribute has been problematic, ineffective or both.
  908. # [20:36] <tantekc> could you both add links to that research to the Summary attribute page on the whatwg wiki?
  909. # [20:36] <tantekc> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Table_Summary
  910. # [20:36] * tantekc is now known as tantek
  911. # [20:36] <tantek> Thanks, and appreciated.
  912. # [20:43] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@U12cb.u.pppool.de)
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  915. # [20:46] <webben> tantek:
  916. # [20:47] * Quits: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-zvyubstlrtxrxsuz)
  917. # [20:48] <webben> nvm ... thought I had the link to hand
  918. # [20:52] <Philip`> tantek: I don't have anything that gives any conclusions like that, but there's some mostly-raw data at http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-values.html and http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-values-dotbot.html which I'm too lazy to bother editing the wiki for
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  922. # [20:56] <tantek> Philip` wow that second link is quite revealing.
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  925. # [20:59] <tantek> Philip` would you like any specific attribution (e.g. full name) on the wiki in addition to the links?
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  927. # [21:12] <tantek> Philip` - thanks for the research. I've amo your links: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Table_Summary#Research
  928. # [21:13] <tantek> please feel free to make any corrections to the text I added.
  929. # [21:15] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE189e.bae.pppool.de)
  930. # [21:16] <annevk2> tantek, there is also http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE though I think it is somewhat confusing and long
  931. # [21:17] <tantek> annevk2 - a few weeks ago there was a discussion about the esw wiki, and several contributors here in this IRC channel claimed their edits were removed.
  932. # [21:17] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE189e.bae.pppool.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  933. # [21:17] <tantek> as such I proposed that they instead add a page to the whatwg wiki to track the issue
  934. # [21:17] <tantek> and be careful to attempt to capture/preserve various points of view - as a scientist should.
  935. # [21:18] <annevk2> okidoki, just wanted to point out that wiki
  936. # [21:18] <MikeSmith> I propose that if they are going to behave like scientists, they should also wear white lab coats while editing the wiki.
  937. # [21:18] <annevk2> I'm somewhat succeeding at staying out of this mess so I think I won't contribute for now
  938. # [21:19] <Philip`> tantek: Attribution doesn't matter - people can go to the root domain to find contact information if they want to complain directly to me :-)
  939. # [21:19] <tantek> annevk2 - feel free to add a link to the other wiki page to the whatwg wiki so that others may discover it as well, and perhaps help by providing summaries (pun not-intended) of the "somewhat confusing and long" sections.
  940. # [21:21] * Joins: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-76-243-95-41.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  941. # [21:27] <annevk2> let that be my only contribution then; done
  942. # [21:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z9353.z.pppool.de)
  943. # [21:32] <othermaciej> I think the problem here is not of cataloging the evidence but of what seem to be irreconcilable worldviews
  944. # [21:33] <othermaciej> on the one hand, a belief in quantitative studies and willingness to break whatever eggs are necessary to make the omelet
  945. # [21:33] <othermaciej> and on the other hand, a belief in expertise and precedent, and that the issue should be primarily decided by the official designated experts
  946. # [21:34] <othermaciej> It seems to me like at this point, people are just repeating these positions at each other
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  948. # [21:36] <othermaciej> (belief in the experts also results in an unreasonable burden of proof for any position that contradicts the official expert position)
  949. # [21:36] <annevk2> I think John changed his position somewhat in that he's not against research, but is against the HTML WG making decisions about the HTML language that contradict existing WAI advice. He argues that we should first change the advice before changing HTML.
  950. # [21:37] * Joins: eighty4_ (n=eighty4@eighty4.se)
  951. # [21:39] <othermaciej> I think most of the WAI/PFWG-affiliated people basically think it should be WAI's call, though some of them may be less open than John to changing what WCAG says
  952. # [21:41] <othermaciej> though the idea that WCAG Techniques should change before HTML5 suggests new techniques is kind of a chicken and egg problem
  953. # [21:41] <tantek> othermaciej - but the "experts" as you say, often disagree. witness the government document Hixie posted a link to.
  954. # [21:41] <tantek> as well as Joe Clark's "WCAG Samurai" effort: http://wcagsamurai.org/
  955. # [21:41] * Joins: yutak_ (n=yutak@220.109.219.244)
  956. # [21:42] <tantek> a well as: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/tohellwithwcag2
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  959. # [21:43] <othermaciej> tantek: I think the claim would be that for the W3C, the official W3C accessibility experts (namely WAI) have the jurisdiction to judge the input of other experts
  960. # [21:43] <othermaciej> (note: I'm not necessarily endorsing this view, just trying to state it dispationately)
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  962. # [21:45] <tantek> I have a feeling that if W3C process/experts succeed in sufficiently slowing down HTML5 progress, at some point what happened before will happen again, WHATWG will continue progress independently. WHATWG didn't need W3C to get started (other than providing motivation/incentive), and potentially doesn't need it to finish HTML5.
  963. # [21:47] <tantek> Or we'll get a fork of HTML5 - the WHATWG version (which will presumably be what the browser vendors in WHATWG implement), and a W3C version that reflects whatever W3C experts can pile into it.
  964. # [21:49] <othermaciej> I would say the delay at this point is not so much the people making jurisdictional claims but the fact that nothing is ever resolved
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  967. # [21:49] <tantek> othermaciej - but "nothing is every resolved" is just another way of saying filibuster AFAICT.
  968. # [21:49] <annevk2> cssquirrel is pretty much lastweekinhtml5
  969. # [21:50] <othermaciej> The WHATWG context doesn't spawn perpetual flamewars, because what Hixie decides goes unless you have new info, so people learn to move on
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  974. # [21:50] <othermaciej> in the HTML WG, the working group in theory has the authority to make a binding decision, but has basically never exercised that authority
  975. # [21:50] <tantek> othermaciej - I've found that documenting issues in a wiki, with data/research/opinions all captured can often reduce/end perpetual flamewars.
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  979. # [21:51] <othermaciej> tantek: I definitely think it's useful to have the reference material gathered
  980. # [21:51] <tantek> in reading public-html - there is too much oft repeated, that would be easily disposed of if arguments were explained (and linked to) via URL on a wiki page.
  981. # [21:52] <othermaciej> I'm just concerned that some people seem to really be making an argument that is jurisdictional rather than epistemological
  982. # [21:52] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  983. # [21:52] <tantek> since I don't have the personal time volunteer to do this for WHATWG/HTML5 (I'm already doing this for microformats.org), this leaves me little choice other than to summarily delete messages from those that do the most oft-repeating. I'm open to alternatives.
  984. # [21:53] <tantek> s/summarily/automatically
  985. # [21:53] <tantek> othermaciej - even if it is a jurisdictional argument, capturing it will still allow the issues around such an argument to be documented (and hopefully resolved).
  986. # [21:54] <tantek> like appealing up to the W3C director to empower groups to do additional research beyond (and thus come to potentially different conclusions than) the top-down "expert" recommendations of other groups.
  987. # [21:55] <othermaciej> I don't think the W3C Process formally requires any WG to take the judgment of any other WG as definitive, though Working Groups are expected to coordinate
  988. # [21:56] <annevk2> yeah, I'm not sure where John gets that idea from
  989. # [21:56] <annevk2> I understand he'd like it to work that way, but that's certainly not how things work
  990. # [21:56] <tantek> othermaciej, from my experience with W3C Process, before documents can exit last call, groups MUST make mutually acceptable resolutions to issues raised by the cross-group working groups like WAI, i18n, etc.
  991. # [21:57] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59)
  992. # [21:57] <tantek> (having personally taking a few documents through/past last call as an editor of W3C working drafts)
  993. # [21:57] <tantek> s/taking/taken
  994. # [21:57] <annevk2> e.g. the i18n WG has at times requested Unicode Normalization for certain things and the XML WG has declined
  995. # [21:58] <tantek> annevk2 - do you have a link to the disposition of issues on a last call working draft from XML WG that documents that?
  996. # [21:59] <tantek> othermaciej - not sure if you got the significance of http://wcagsamurai.org/ BTW
  997. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Oh noes!
  998. # [21:59] <gsnedders> It's a cabal!
  999. # [22:01] <othermaciej> there doesn't seem to be a formal requirement in the W3C Process to treat comments from WAI or the i18n group any differently than anyone else's to exit LC
  1000. # [22:01] <tantek> accessibility expert Joe Clark deemed WCAG2 "nearly impossible ... to understand", and basically forked from WCAG1, and provided an errata'd WCAG1 to be used *instead of* WCAG2: http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html
  1001. # [22:01] <othermaciej> though informally the Director could apply a different standard to determining whether their issues are Formally Addressed
  1002. # [22:02] <othermaciej> yeah, I recall that WCAG Samurai is a divergent effort
  1003. # [22:02] <tantek> othermaciej - I can't link to a formal requirement, but I do know from experience that in practice, the Director is expected to apply a different (more cautious?) standard to issues raised by WAI, i18n, etc.
  1004. # [22:02] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B015C72.dip.t-dialin.net)
  1005. # [22:02] <annevk2> tantek, they did eventually agree it seems: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2009May/0023.html
  1006. # [22:02] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@17.203.15.214)
  1007. # [22:03] <tantek> othermaciej - the point is, WCAG2 is not without much criticism itself, to the point of causing a rift/split among experts that produced an alternative document.
  1008. # [22:03] <annevk2> tantek, (the i18n WG agreed with a "lesser" solution)
  1009. # [22:03] <tantek> annevk2 - that's usually what happens in these cases - some kind of compromise. a "lesser" solution, or dropped features (features that can't be agreed upon for example).
  1010. # [22:04] * tantek wonders if any / how much of WCAG 1 errata by WCAG Samurai has been incorporated (or even considered for incorporation) into HTML5 by Hixie http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html
  1011. # [22:05] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  1012. # [22:06] <othermaciej> the folks representing WAI don't seem very open to compromise, though perhaps with a more formal cross-WG request for comments things would be different
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  1014. # [22:07] <tantek> othermaciej - in terms of process problems, I strongly recommend you read: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/tohellwithwcag2#WCAG-documents:process
  1015. # [22:08] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.18.83)
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  1020. # [22:16] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
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  1022. # [22:24] <annevk2> i wonder if WAI made any statements in response to that article
  1023. # [22:28] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.33.239.250)
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  1026. # [22:50] <annevk2> (I meant "pretty much like" above, not "pretty much", apparently the comparison made it to twitter...)
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  1028. # [23:02] <Dashiva> annevk2: Such is the burden of fame
  1029. # [23:04] <annevk2> prolly also how a lot of bs comes into the world
  1030. # [23:04] <Dashiva> The basis of news media, for one
  1031. # [23:05] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  1032. # [23:05] <annevk2> it's tempting to abuse the attention
  1033. # [23:05] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  1034. # [23:05] <Dashiva> That's what lastweek is for
  1035. # [23:06] <othermaciej> if you're gonna read the logs in near-realtime, why not just join the channel?
  1036. # [23:07] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-cuwexhxocuxqowsa)
  1037. # [23:07] <Dashiva> The whatwg elite is uniform in geographical origin? That's new to me
  1038. # [23:08] <Dashiva> I would call it refreshingly diverse considering how many countries are represented
  1039. # [23:09] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  1040. # [23:09] <annevk2> where's that from?
  1041. # [23:09] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.85.212.62) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  1042. # [23:09] <Dashiva> Shelley
  1043. # [23:10] <Dashiva> http://www.cssquirrel.com/2009/07/09/comic-update-manners-after-the-xhtmlacolypse/#comment-26440
  1044. # [23:10] <annevk2> maybe she means not American?
  1045. # [23:11] <takkaria> obviously, people who work for browser vendors and standards orgs are in a terrible situation if they want to write standards about browsers
  1046. # [23:11] <takkaria> we should get some plumbers and some members of royal families in to make sure their viewpoints are heard too
  1047. # [23:11] <Dashiva> Joe the Spec Writer
  1048. # [23:11] <annevk2> wow, what a bs comment
  1049. # [23:12] <Dashiva> Isn't othermaciej American?
  1050. # [23:13] <annevk2> no
  1051. # [23:13] <othermaciej> by current location, yes
  1052. # [23:13] <othermaciej> by background, no
  1053. # [23:13] <Dashiva> We're in trouble then. Quick, get us an American alibi.
  1054. # [23:14] <takkaria> oh, let's get an Australian in too because they're about as far away from civilisation as you can get
  1055. # [23:14] <takkaria> oh, wait
  1056. # [23:16] <othermaciej> I'm also not "20-something", I grew up in poverty, and while I wouldn't call myself "disabled", I'm currently unable to use a mouse for extended periods
  1057. # [23:16] <othermaciej> but hey, why let facts get in the way when you're stereotyping
  1058. # [23:17] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/johnfoliot/statuses/3111346948 -- not unexpected
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  1060. # [23:18] <Dashiva> I thought we had an Australian, but now I can't think of any
  1061. # [23:19] <Dashiva> annevk2: So he's finally admitting it was a game. Fun.
  1062. # [23:19] <takkaria> Lachy is from Oz I think
  1063. # [23:19] <othermaciej> Lachy is from Oz
  1064. # [23:19] <annevk2> yup
  1065. # [23:20] <annevk2> and chaals!
  1066. # [23:20] <takkaria> chaals isn't part of the cabal though
  1067. # [23:20] <Dashiva> I don't think he counts as part of the whatwg elite!
  1068. # [23:20] <annevk2> he's my manager though
  1069. # [23:20] <Dashiva> sssh
  1070. # [23:20] <Dashiva> Don't tell them
  1071. # [23:20] <othermaciej> yeah, anne is not allowed to have an opinion without checking it with chaals first
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  1073. # [23:21] <Dashiva> I wonder what sam would say about that tweet
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  1076. # [23:27] <Philip`> Discussing specifics and then generalising seems like a sensible approach, compared to just discussing generalities
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  1079. # [23:29] <takkaria> but the specifics are biased and ignore expertise
  1080. # [23:29] <Dashiva> I notice cssquirrel joined the ranks of people who discovered Hixie's bible
  1081. # [23:30] <Hixie> the last part of that handling-people document is especially apt given all the process nonsense recently
  1082. # [23:30] <Dashiva> I don't think they get the irony
  1083. # [23:31] <Hixie> few people who quote that document do
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The end :)