/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-12 / end

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# Aug 12 00:07:15 <Hixie> woah, the IANA said we shouldn't have ports for WebSocket, and should just reuse HTTP's ports
# Aug 12 00:07:38 <othermaciej> that's... surprising
# Aug 12 00:07:40 <othermaciej> but good
# Aug 12 00:09:06 <Hixie> they also said that if we used our own ports, we shouldn't have two, but should just use one and upgrade in-line
# Aug 12 00:09:12 <Hixie> not sure how they expect that to work with http...
# Aug 12 00:09:42 <othermaciej> there is such a thing as TLS upgrade
# Aug 12 00:09:58 <Hixie> sure, but nobody uses it because it's a security nightmare
# Aug 12 00:10:00 <othermaciej> I am not sure if it is actually deployed and usable in practice
# Aug 12 00:10:35 <Hixie> they also said that if we want to use a port than isn't HTTP, we should not use a system port
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# Aug 12 00:11:17 <othermaciej> also surprising
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# Aug 12 00:58:01 <rubys2> I miss krijnhoetmer.nl
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# Aug 12 01:20:40 <othermaciej> rubys: any thoughts on my suggested issue closures?
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# Aug 12 01:25:59 <Hixie> othermaciej: he was only here about 60 seconds
# Aug 12 01:26:08 <Hixie> oh, no, rubys is still here
# Aug 12 01:26:12 <Hixie> rubys2 left
# Aug 12 01:26:14 <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, he just changed nicks
# Aug 12 01:26:27 <roc> othermaciej: you might be interested in this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2009JulSep/1238.html
# Aug 12 01:26:41 <roc> in fact, it would be good to get some feedback
# Aug 12 01:27:14 <othermaciej> roc: we discussed it briefly among web folks and font folks
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# Aug 12 01:27:25 <roc> oh good
# Aug 12 01:27:28 <roc> http://www.jfkew.plus.com/webotf/webotf-test.html too
# Aug 12 01:27:47 <othermaciej> roc: we are not at all enthusiastic about implementing a new font format
# Aug 12 01:28:13 <othermaciej> roc: and grabbing only chunks of it at a time would be pretty hard to shoehorn into our font infrastructure
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# Aug 12 01:28:35 <roc> you don't have to grab only chunks of it at a time
# Aug 12 01:28:35 <othermaciej> roc: if all other browsers want to push something, we won't block it, but I don't think we are going to actively endorse any new format
# Aug 12 01:29:06 <roc> ok
# Aug 12 01:29:07 <roc> thanks
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# Aug 12 01:29:18 <Hixie> google's in pretty much the same position -- we are fine with TTF.
# Aug 12 01:29:32 <Hixie> if operating systems add support for WebOTF, we would probably follow suit
# Aug 12 01:29:51 <Hixie> but on its own, it doesn't really seem to solve any pressing problems
# Aug 12 01:30:14 <othermaciej> we are also fine with TTF/OTF, and would not consider WebOTF an improvement
# Aug 12 01:30:42 <othermaciej> but we are less opposed to it than EOT or anything EOT based, since it does not seem to have DRM-like characteristics
# Aug 12 01:30:52 <rubys> i'm back
# Aug 12 01:30:59 <heycam> Hixie, are you sure that "Sean Hogen" in the Acknowledgements section shouldn't be "Sean Hogan"?
# Aug 12 01:31:01 <othermaciej> hi!
# Aug 12 01:31:09 <Hixie> heycam: i am not
# Aug 12 01:31:11 <heycam> (i remember seeing someone with the latter name send mails, but not the former)
# Aug 12 01:31:14 <rubys> what's the question?
# Aug 12 01:31:34 <rubys> irc archives appear to be down
# Aug 12 01:31:44 <othermaciej> rubys: I wanted to get your thoughts on my suggested closures of old issues, but I decided to just make a proposal for how to proceed with them on public-html
# Aug 12 01:32:06 <othermaciej> rubys: that being said, your input is still welcome if you have any
# Aug 12 01:32:17 <Hixie> rubys: regarding your comment in the poll, the reason i removed that issue marker was that i was under the impression that the issue had been resolved as part of the compromise maciej set out -- removing the issue marker was one of the things jf and maciej agreed to as far as i understood it
# Aug 12 01:32:51 <Hixie> rubys: and i didn't see your e-mails about it (there was a lot of traffic at the time, i must have missed one)
# Aug 12 01:32:58 <rubys> othermaciej: where is the proposal?
# Aug 12 01:33:24 <rubys> hixie: we clearly have a different idea of what closed means, but that's OK
# Aug 12 01:33:40 <othermaciej> rubys: oh, I guess I didn't send it yet
# Aug 12 01:33:58 <rubys> I guess that would explain why I couldn't find it.
# Aug 12 01:34:02 <rubys> yes, I do have thoughts...
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# Aug 12 01:34:12 <othermaciej> rubys: my suggestion was going to be, close ISSUE-5, ISSUE-6, ISSUE-9, ISSUE-10, ISSUE-11, ISSUE-12, ISSUE-13, ISSUE-16, ISSUE-17, ISSUE-20, ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 on Monday if there are no objections
# Aug 12 01:34:27 <othermaciej> and I was planning to ask the team contacts to give me issue tracker edit rights to do it
# Aug 12 01:34:40 <rubys> oh, I can give you that now.
# Aug 12 01:35:16 <rubys> but I wouldn't suggest any sudden closure. Weren't you complaining a short while back about a particular vote being rushed? :-)
# Aug 12 01:35:19 <othermaciej> (I sent emails justifying closing each of those issues and soliciting feedback.)
# Aug 12 01:35:37 <rubys> oh, I think you are aright on all counts except for the one that Julian owns.
# Aug 12 01:35:52 <othermaciej> if you would like to suggest a different process for closing them, then I'm fine with that
# Aug 12 01:35:53 <rubys> and if nobody steps forward and agrees to work an item, it should be closed.
# Aug 12 01:36:43 <othermaciej> I think some reasonable period to object to closing is an adequate process, I am willing to make the time period whatever you think is best, if it's not unreasonable long
# Aug 12 01:37:20 <rubys> it looks like I'm chairing again on thursday, my plan was to announce that the issues that you identified that have no owners will be closed by the next thursday unless somebody steps forward to owning it.
# Aug 12 01:37:25 <othermaciej> I'm willing to leave Julian's open if he insists on it, although I think an issue about an old feature proposal he had is not the right way to represent the fact that he'd like to review a related section of the spec and give some feedback
# Aug 12 01:37:58 <rubys> he seems to agree that there won't be any major change.
# Aug 12 01:38:26 <othermaciej> the issue is pretty explicitly about a particular kind of major change, so it doesn't seem to represent his intent
# Aug 12 01:38:47 <othermaciej> that being said, I am satisfied to keep it open for now
# Aug 12 01:39:03 <othermaciej> though at some point, Julian's intent to do some review can't block Last Call, if he continues not to do it
# Aug 12 01:39:15 <rubys> totally agreed on that last point
# Aug 12 01:40:45 <othermaciej> rubys: OK if I send email summarizing this discussion? ("Issues to be announced at Thursday's telecon, and closed next Thursday except for ones where someone objects and steps up to own it." basically)
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# Aug 12 01:41:15 <rubys> you can now edit issues. I love the work you have done, just make sure that you give people an opportunity.
# Aug 12 01:42:08 <othermaciej> I'm trying to be extremely conservative in issues that I propose to close, and I intend to give everyone adequate opportunity to object
# Aug 12 01:42:12 <rubys> as I said, I was going to include it on the announce I was sending out tomorrow, but if you feel you want to go ahead, that's fine. I feel that announce is low traffic and there is no excuses to miss an email (me glances towards hixie :-))
# Aug 12 01:42:33 <Dashiva> What about those of us who only read public-html and not announces? :)
# Aug 12 01:42:59 <rubys> then you get to read it later (in the minutes :-))
# Aug 12 01:43:05 <othermaciej> I think I'll send it separately and mention that you will also mention the details in the announcement, since I think there are people who will be interested, but habitually skip (or at best skim) the announcements
# Aug 12 01:43:10 <Hixie> rubys: oh you sent your comment in an agenda e-mail? i don't read those, they seem to never change.
# Aug 12 01:43:26 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0315.html
# Aug 12 01:43:32 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0330.html
# Aug 12 01:43:57 <rubys> no, my comment wasn't in those. Chris's agenda emails are formulaic, but I try to add more 'spice' to mine.
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# Aug 12 01:46:55 <Hixie> oh i saw your e-mail of those two, but it didn't seem to be a question, so i decided it'd be better for everyone if i didn't add fuel to the fire
# Aug 12 01:47:04 <rubys> othermaciej: I totally agree about moving 12 and 20 from issues to bugzilla on testcases
# Aug 12 01:47:16 <Hixie> the first one was from laura, and i'm still waiting for her to explain how i wasn't cooperating before i reply to her e-mails
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# Aug 12 01:47:47 <Hixie> as i'm tired of sending e-mails with questions, and never getting replies
# Aug 12 01:47:55 <Hixie> yet getting called on not replying to questions
# Aug 12 01:48:23 <Hixie> anyway, as i said, the reason i didn't include the issue marker was that was the agreement with jf and maciej
# Aug 12 01:48:34 <rubys> I made it clear then that I still view the issue as open. I tried to encourage you to add back the issue box, and later I tried to encourage manu not to proceed with the poll. Seem to be batting 000 these days. :-)
# Aug 12 01:48:51 <Hixie> considering the summary issue open is a huge mistake imho
# Aug 12 01:49:16 <Hixie> there's no direction from this point that doesn't make more people less happy
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# Aug 12 01:49:35 <Hixie> so if we want to change the spec at this point, it pretty much has to be a vote
# Aug 12 01:49:35 <othermaciej> I don't think JF and I specifically said either to remove the marker or to keep it, and I personally don't care
# Aug 12 01:49:45 <rubys> considering it closed invites Formal Objection. Much better to give people rope and all that. And sometimes they surprise you.
# Aug 12 01:50:04 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0017.html
# Aug 12 01:50:13 <rubys> JF clearly asked for the mark, and Ian clearly agreed.
# Aug 12 01:50:32 <Hixie> that was long before maciej's compromise
# Aug 12 01:50:50 <othermaciej> and indeed Ian added the marker at that point
# Aug 12 01:51:04 <rubys> which you accepted, but not everybody did. such a hasty process creates ill will
# Aug 12 01:51:32 <othermaciej> if only there were a way to avoid having a hasty process on technical issues right before WD
# Aug 12 01:52:00 <rubys> othermaciej: want me to dig up all the times recently where you were complaining about a vote being too fast? :-)
# Aug 12 01:52:59 <Lachy> rubys, I think pushing to have warnings in the spec about open issues for summary and, previously, longdesc, has set a silly precedent that has lead us to this time wasting effort to vote on the inclusion of transient warnings that won't last longer than one WD cycle, let alone help to resolve the actual issues at hand.
# Aug 12 01:53:17 <rubys> Lachy: have you looked at the poll lately?
# Aug 12 01:53:28 <Lachy> yeah, I know Hixie's draft is ahead
# Aug 12 01:53:38 <rubys> so why get upset and argue?
# Aug 12 01:54:25 <Dashiva> Precedent?
# Aug 12 01:54:48 <othermaciej> rubys: the meaning of my statement was supposed to be - I think there is indeed a way to avoid having a hasty process on technical issues right before WD, several ways, and we should do one of those
# Aug 12 01:54:50 <Lachy> because I'm annoyed with this whole heartbeat issue having taken 4 weeks of valuable time that could have been spent finding real solutions, rather than meaningless nonsense
# Aug 12 01:55:16 <rubys> there are only two issues that I'm really worried about. Issue-35 and Issue-74.
# Aug 12 01:55:38 <Hixie> rubys: btw do you still intend to do the review you said you'd do?
# Aug 12 01:55:41 <rubys> Lachy: so don't spend your valuable time on it.
# Aug 12 01:56:06 <Hixie> rubys: (just asking to know how to plan for the next few months)
# Aug 12 01:56:32 <rubys> I no longer see calling out sections as an effective way to proceed.
# Aug 12 01:56:40 <Hixie> k
# Aug 12 01:56:59 <Hixie> what's your new plan for establishing consensus?
# Aug 12 01:57:22 <othermaciej> it seems to me the blocker on issue-35 at the moment is not controversy on how to proceed, but rather blocking on a PFWG decision
# Aug 12 01:57:38 <othermaciej> we can (and should IMO) find ways to be more pro-active about unblocking progress
# Aug 12 01:57:50 <rubys> both 35 and 74 are blocked on PFWG
# Aug 12 01:58:07 <othermaciej> for 74, I believe good progress is being made on proposing a solution
# Aug 12 01:58:20 <othermaciej> and the solution may require little or no change to the spec besides editorial text giving examples
# Aug 12 01:58:24 <Lachy> Dashiva, yes, that's what I meant. I always spell that word wrong
# Aug 12 01:58:39 <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133
# Aug 12 01:58:39 <othermaciej> at least, that is what I have heard from my sources involved closely in those discussions
# Aug 12 01:58:46 <hober> rubys: I'm surprised you're not really worried about issue 41
# Aug 12 01:59:06 <rubys> 41 has no concrete proposal.
# Aug 12 01:59:11 <Dashiva> Lachy: I wasn't correcting you, I was semi-answering rubys
# Aug 12 01:59:33 <othermaciej> anyway, sorting out the chaff will make it easier for the group to have a shared view of which issues are important to worry about
# Aug 12 01:59:44 <othermaciej> which is why I am starting with the low-hanging fruit
# Aug 12 02:00:08 <othermaciej> I'm thinking like a project manager - must get bug trendline to point in the right direction
# Aug 12 02:00:33 <rubys> othermaciej: that's great, just make sure that everybody has a thursday-thursday period to notice the impending closure.
# Aug 12 02:00:43 <rubys> not everybody has the bandwidth to keep up with the emails.
# Aug 12 02:01:04 <othermaciej> rubys: I think thursday-thursday is a fine timeline and I'll stick to that
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# Aug 12 02:01:44 <othermaciej> I think that way, both primarily-email and primarily-telecon participants get a fair chance to have their say
# Aug 12 02:01:53 <rubys> exactly
# Aug 12 02:02:23 <rubys> I have no interest in keeping open issues for which there are no owners.
# Aug 12 02:02:30 <rubys> And for issues with owners, I want dates.
# Aug 12 02:02:56 <rubys> 35 and 74 have dates in Nov and Dec, which is what concerns me.
# Aug 12 02:02:57 * Hixie would rather see progress than dates :-P
# Aug 12 02:03:10 <Hixie> rubys: what's your new plan for establishing consensus?
# Aug 12 02:03:47 <rubys> close items with no owners, give issues with owners a chance, and then close the issues either when they complete or fail.
# Aug 12 02:04:50 <Hixie> so the issue tracker's list of issues in the state Open (not Raised, not Pending Review, and not Closed) is the list of issues that need to be resolved before LC?
# Aug 12 02:05:13 <Hixie> or do you mean the list of issues not marked Closed?
# Aug 12 02:05:25 <othermaciej> I think establishing committed owners and deadlines for the issues that remain after closing the low hanging fruit is a fine next step
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# Aug 12 02:07:01 <othermaciej> that leaves the questions of what to do if the deadline is missed (can't let it slip indefinitely), and what to do if there are multiple competing concrete proposals
# Aug 12 02:07:08 <rubys> Hixie: after a bit of cleanup, I do see the issue tracker as being that. And othermaciej is doing a fine job at kicking off that discussion.
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# Aug 12 02:07:34 <Hixie> rubys: which states are the ones i need to look at to see issues blocking LC?
# Aug 12 02:07:44 <othermaciej> I think Hixie is asking if issues marked as "Raised" or "Pending Review" are considered open in the sense of blocking LC
# Aug 12 02:07:56 <othermaciej> (it's not entirely clear to me what the distinctions are)
# Aug 12 02:08:16 <rubys> Raised means no owners. Destined to be closed due to lack of interest unless somebody steps up.
# Aug 12 02:08:34 <rubys> Pending Review means that the owner considers his or herself done. Also destined to be closed.
# Aug 12 02:09:00 <othermaciej> by what process will Destiny work its will?
# Aug 12 02:09:23 <rubys> Open are the key ones, and what is key is getting agreement. Telling people that it is closed only pisses them off.
# Aug 12 02:09:54 <rubys> othermaciej: taking your list and giving people until a week from thursday to volunteer is a great process.
# Aug 12 02:10:54 <othermaciej> rubys: all right, then in my next pass I will consider all Raised and Pending Review issues for the chopping block if they do not get caught in the first pass (where I am hoping to find issues where no real dissent remains)
# Aug 12 02:11:59 <Hixie> rubys: who owns issues with no action items?
# Aug 12 02:12:18 <Hixie> (i'm assuming the people with action items own the issues with them)
# Aug 12 02:12:47 <Dashiva> If hybi were to create a generic bidirectional tunneling protocol, wouldn't that immediately get blocked in firewalls for the same reason the firewalls block non-http in the first place?
# Aug 12 02:13:10 <rubys> hixie: tell me which ones, and I'll demote to raised or find an owner. I just demoted 60.
# Aug 12 02:13:38 <Hixie> rubys: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
# Aug 12 02:13:43 <Dashiva> (Well, not immediately, but as soon as the firewalls change)
# Aug 12 02:13:44 <othermaciej> Hixie: it seems to me that based on what Sam said, issues with no action item should be given an opportunity to find an owner, who presumably thereby receives an action item
# Aug 12 02:14:24 <othermaciej> I will continue my review of open issues tonight
# Aug 12 02:14:43 <rubys> demoted 37. Will kick Mike again about 59.
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# Aug 12 02:15:00 <rubys> s/presumably/definitely/
# Aug 12 02:15:07 <Hixie> i can volunteer to own 59 if you like. And then immediately announce I've done it. :-)
# Aug 12 02:15:42 <Hixie> (the html5 spec has had an "author view" for a while now)
# Aug 12 02:15:44 <Lachy> Hixie, I like that idea
# Aug 12 02:15:54 <othermaciej> Hixie: is it possible to produce a copy of your spec that has the "author view" as the default stylesheet?
# Aug 12 02:16:24 <othermaciej> Hixie: I suspect people will be a tiny bit more satisfied if they can follow a link to the "author view", even if there is no material difference
# Aug 12 02:16:24 <Hixie> othermaciej: sure, that's technically trivial.
# Aug 12 02:17:33 <Lachy> Is it possible generate a copy which excludes all the implementer stuff from the file, rather than just hiding it with a stylesheet?
# Aug 12 02:18:13 <Lachy> That should make the file significantly smaller and at least partially resolve the issues people have with the monolithic spec
# Aug 12 02:18:14 <rubys> if nobody else volunteers for 59, it will get closed. I would must rather have a situation where somebody (in this case Mike) was given every opportunity and failed rather than telling them NO and have them be convinced that the only reason why they failed was that they weren't given a reasonable opportunity.
# Aug 12 02:18:15 <othermaciej> people might be slightly even more satisfied with that, even though there is even less material difference
# Aug 12 02:18:16 <Hixie> Lachy: technically yes, but someone would have to make the script to do it.
# Aug 12 02:18:26 <Lachy> ok
# Aug 12 02:19:04 <Lachy> I assume it would just take a small script to strip out any element with a class="impl" on it
# Aug 12 02:19:09 <othermaciej> we should give Mike the opportunity to weigh in on whether Hixie's author view (if it can be linked standalone) satisfies the goals he had for H:TML
# Aug 12 02:19:42 <rubys> Mike is traveling at the moment, but he does log on. He also plans to be on Thursday's call.
# Aug 12 02:19:58 <Hixie> Lachy: yes
# Aug 12 02:20:00 <othermaciej> Lachy: are you willing to volunteer to make that script
# Aug 12 02:20:01 <Lachy> I wouldn't mind having Mike's H:TML draft published non-normatively in addition to an author only copy
# Aug 12 02:20:02 <othermaciej> ?
# Aug 12 02:20:06 <Lachy> othermaciej, maybe.
# Aug 12 02:20:38 <Lachy> I might even be able to do it now, if I can base it one one of my existing scripts I use for generating the authoring guide
# Aug 12 02:20:43 <othermaciej> if someone actually makes the script, then we may be able to persuade Mike that the author view is a win-win solution
# Aug 12 02:21:08 <othermaciej> or if it does not meet some of his goals, we can ask him to articulate what those are
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# Aug 12 02:21:46 <Lachy> Hixie, if it works like this: cat source | author-view > author-only-source, will that fit into your tool chain?
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# Aug 12 02:28:44 <Hixie> Lachy: it has to be a web service for me to put it in my toolchain
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# Aug 12 02:29:28 <Hixie> Lachy: (i can't be parsing the html5 spec a dozen times at once on the local machine)
# Aug 12 02:30:25 <Lachy> ok. Well, I will proceed under the assumption that such a simple system will be very easy to integrate into a web service
# Aug 12 02:30:44 <Philip`> So you prefer to rely on a dozen remote machines to each parse it?
# Aug 12 02:30:50 <Hixie> Philip`: yup
# Aug 12 02:30:56 <Hixie> Philip`: so long as it's not mine :-P
# Aug 12 02:31:14 * Philip` doesn't understand why that system doesn't collapse constantly, since it has lots of potential points of failure
# Aug 12 02:31:45 <Lachy> it sucks that we don't have a nicely integrated system that allows the source to be parsed just once and processed such that it results in multiple output files
# Aug 12 02:32:04 <Hixie> Philip`: the only critical point of failure i don't control is pimpmyspec.net
# Aug 12 02:32:20 * Philip` should probably move the multipage splitter onto a proper server, rather than on an old machine in his parents' house over an ADSL line
# Aug 12 02:32:30 <Dashiva> Where's the fun in that?
# Aug 12 02:32:35 <Hixie> Lachy: i have a number of preprocessing steps that happen before the source becomes valid HTML that can be parsed
# Aug 12 02:32:56 <Hixie> Lachy: e.g. merging source files from whatwg.org/demos, filtering the references, etc.
# Aug 12 02:34:22 <rubys> I seem to be able to go from Hixie-source to w3c split out spec in about 15 seconds on a rather midling AMD e-machine that I purchased for $199 earlier this year.
# Aug 12 02:34:59 <rubys> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4616541
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# Aug 12 03:11:41 <Hixie> wow, a lot of these actions have been open a long time
# Aug 12 03:11:53 <Hixie> i wonder how to help people make progress on them
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# Aug 12 05:11:41 <roc> this BWTP thread looks like a textbook case of feature creep
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# Aug 12 05:13:47 <othermaciej> roc: gonna vote in the HTML WG poll?
# Aug 12 05:13:50 <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/
# Aug 12 05:14:07 <othermaciej> I encourage you to vote your conscience, despite the relative triviality of the issue at stake
# Aug 12 05:14:37 <othermaciej> roc: BWTP looks like feature creep to me too - I wonder if there is a middle ground that adds a few of the most useful features but otherwise is closer in simplicity to WebSocket Protocol
# Aug 12 05:19:26 <roc> othermaciej: your wish is my command
# Aug 12 05:23:30 <roc> hmm, and I missed the part about BWTP having "forgiving syntax"
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# Aug 12 05:56:07 <Hixie> othermaciej: if there are features that actually make sense to add, and don't put onerous requirements on server-side implementations that don't need those features, i hope we can add them
# Aug 12 05:56:13 <Hixie> othermaciej: i haven't seen any such features yet
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# Aug 12 05:56:40 <othermaciej> Hixie: I haven't had a chance to give it a close review
# Aug 12 05:57:06 <othermaciej> for now I am taking it on faith that being "like http" would make things easier for server-side implementations embedded in an existing Web server
# Aug 12 05:57:18 <othermaciej> but I don't have the context to evaluate the merit of this claim
# Aug 12 05:57:43 <othermaciej> and the corresponding claim as to the client side seems wrong
# Aug 12 05:57:49 <Hixie> it certainly wouldn't make it easier for standalone servers
# Aug 12 05:58:02 <Hixie> which i expect to be the common case
# Aug 12 05:58:15 <Hixie> on the other hand, i've written a websocket server in 99 lines of perl
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# Aug 12 05:58:51 <othermaciej> I would love to hear from someone in charge of a big existing infrastructure which would be easier for them
# Aug 12 05:59:09 <othermaciej> (although I suppose that risks enterprise-itis)
# Aug 12 06:00:22 <dave_levin> othermaciej: Bidirection Web Transfer Protocol vs Web Sockets?
# Aug 12 06:00:47 <othermaciej> dave_levin: yes
# Aug 12 06:01:55 <othermaciej> I don't know if I should bother to argue with the crazy people who think that instead of a ws: URI scheme (or similar), the URIs should just be http://ws.specific-magic-hostname.org?the-actual-url-goes-here
# Aug 12 06:02:56 <dave_levin> othermaciej: I'll see if I can find someone on the Google Talk team to look them over if that would be helpful. They sit pretty close to me.
# Aug 12 06:06:23 <Hixie> dave_levin: it would be helpful if they could review websocket in general
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# Aug 12 06:07:59 <roc> othermaciej: ask someone who's actually in charge of actual infrastructure what would be easier for them ... do not ask their Architect
# Aug 12 06:08:04 <dave_levin> Hixie: Honestly, they were a bit slow on all of that, but I think they are ready to focus more on these issues. I'll talk to them. I think Ukai has also been talking to someone on that team (since he has been working web sockets in WebKit).
# Aug 12 06:08:29 * bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 06:09:22 <Hixie> cool
# Aug 12 06:09:29 <Hixie> roc: i'm not sure we even have any of those :-)
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# Aug 12 06:10:31 <othermaciej> roc: *shudder*
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# Aug 12 08:13:18 <hsivonen> annevk42: the comment box on the poll seems like a good place to enumerate what's not factual about Manu's draft
# Aug 12 08:15:51 <othermaciej> I wonder if this poll will top our record for most total votes (which I believe is 88)
# Aug 12 08:17:39 * othermaciej is surprised to find on review that neither anne nor james have voted yet
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# Aug 12 08:59:08 <Mrmil> Looks like there is a boom in HTML 5 tutorials...
# Aug 12 09:02:35 <othermaciej> hsivonen: do you know what's up with this issue? is there still a conflict? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/38
# Aug 12 09:03:55 <othermaciej> looks fixed, nevermind
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# Aug 12 09:11:49 <othermaciej> hsivonen: does ARIA still depend in any way on CURIEs?
# Aug 12 09:11:55 <othermaciej> (re http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51 )
# Aug 12 09:14:47 <hsivonen> othermaciej: AFAIK, no, but I'll check
# Aug 12 09:15:32 <hsivonen> othermaciej: can't find any mention of curie in the latest ARIA spec.
# Aug 12 09:15:42 <othermaciej> hsivonen: ok, thanks
# Aug 12 09:16:22 * othermaciej wonders whether he has the stomach to review issues 46-60
# Aug 12 09:16:44 <othermaciej> this is an incredibly boring task, which the chairs should have long ago done or delegated :-(
# Aug 12 09:16:57 <hsivonen> indeed
# Aug 12 09:17:07 <hsivonen> othermaciej: thank you for doing it anyway
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# Aug 12 09:18:06 <hsivonen> Issue 53 seems to have draft text now
# Aug 12 09:18:20 <hsivonen> issue 54 has been addressed
# Aug 12 09:18:41 <othermaciej> I'm not sure what to suggest for issue 48
# Aug 12 09:18:42 <Lachy> issue 54 is pending the registration of about: URI scheme
# Aug 12 09:19:06 <othermaciej> yeah
# Aug 12 09:19:15 <Lachy> I would close it, but some people wanted it kept open until that's done
# Aug 12 09:19:42 <othermaciej> I think I'll suggest raising a separate issue on registering the about: URI scheme, if registering the scheme needs to block Last Call
# Aug 12 09:19:59 <Lachy> good idea
# Aug 12 09:20:07 <hsivonen> othermaciej: about ARIA specifically: ARIA was fixed to acknowledge similarity of role to "XHTML Role Attribute Module" without actually importing the definition
# Aug 12 09:20:25 <othermaciej> or we can track it in bugzilla, if a scheme registration doesn't need to block Last Call
# Aug 12 09:21:06 <othermaciej> do media type registrations normally get updated before or after LC?
# Aug 12 09:21:27 <hsivonen> I hope the pont of issue 56 is to update AWWW if it turns out that real-world URL processing conflicts with Architecture
# Aug 12 09:21:48 <hsivonen> s/pont/point/
# Aug 12 09:21:58 <othermaciej> I have no idea what issue-56 is about
# Aug 12 09:22:18 <othermaciej> but I believe the plan to defer to WEBADDRESS or IRIbis or whatever addresses it
# Aug 12 09:22:42 <hsivonen> if issue 56 needs to be an issue, it should be a TAG issue filed against Architecture
# Aug 12 09:23:38 <othermaciej> so the only ones I don't know what to do with are ISSUE-48 and ISSUE-53 out of this next batch
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# Aug 12 09:23:44 <Hixie> othermaciej: if you mean mime types, we let the IESG know that we're going to register them when we hit LC, then we register them at CR.
# Aug 12 09:23:54 * pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 09:24:09 <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, so a task on MIME type registration doesn't need to block LC?
# Aug 12 09:24:21 <othermaciej> Hixie: or do we need draft registration text before LC, and if so do we have it?
# Aug 12 09:31:44 <hsivonen> BWTP seems like a lot of feature creep :-(
# Aug 12 09:35:40 <Hixie> othermaciej: the draft registrations for all the MIME types I'm aware that we need to register are all at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#iana-considerations
# Aug 12 09:36:12 <othermaciej> Hixie: ok, sounds like the issue on registrations can be closed, the
# Aug 12 09:37:06 <hober> I hope the ARIA folk handle their LC comments by either renaming @role to @aria-role or allowing the host language to use a more appropriate existing attr (in our case, @class)
# Aug 12 09:37:49 <othermaciej> hober: I don't think putting aria roles in @class is viable
# Aug 12 09:38:15 <othermaciej> too many existing pages would then appear to have an ARIA role accidentally
# Aug 12 09:38:15 <hsivonen> hober: renaming role isn't on the table
# Aug 12 09:38:39 <hsivonen> hober: hasn't been since Firefox 3.0 froze
# Aug 12 09:40:19 * jgraham hasn't finished reading the scrollback but notes that he has a script that strips non author view stuff from the spec somewhere
# Aug 12 09:40:43 <hsivonen> hmm. my email isn't appearing on public-html
# Aug 12 09:41:12 <othermaciej> jgraham: do you think it would be feasible to integrate it with Hixie's toolchain?
# Aug 12 09:41:27 <jgraham> I also hacked together an anolis module to copy status annotations from the WHATWG data to a static spec
# Aug 12 09:41:40 <hsivonen> jgraham: awesome!
# Aug 12 09:41:51 <jgraham> I haven't checked it works very properly or anything
# Aug 12 09:42:01 <jgraham> I will continue to poke at it a bit
# Aug 12 09:42:10 <jgraham> othermaciej: pobably
# Aug 12 09:42:15 <jgraham> *probably
# Aug 12 09:42:33 <othermaciej> jgraham: it would be useful - so we can see if such a spec would satisfy those who want an author-only spec
# Aug 12 09:42:48 <Lachy> jgraham, great, that means I can take that off my todo list for today
# Aug 12 09:43:19 <hsivonen> anyway, the content of my email to list was that issue-30 isn't controversial anymore, because WAI-CG agreed to the obsoletion of longdesc if aria-describedby gets in
# Aug 12 09:43:41 <othermaciej> hsivonen: I saw your email
# Aug 12 09:43:44 <othermaciej> hsivonen: I even replied to it
# Aug 12 09:43:51 <othermaciej> I may have seen it not-via-the-list
# Aug 12 09:44:32 <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok. then SMTP at my end isn't horked
# Aug 12 09:46:15 <jgraham> biab
# Aug 12 09:46:32 <othermaciej> hsivonen: mails seem to be appearing in the archive out of order
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# Aug 12 10:45:22 <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0070.html
# Aug 12 10:45:29 <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0085.html
# Aug 12 10:46:18 <Hixie> yeah i couldn't tell if he was unintentionally proving our point about prefixes being confusing, or if he was being sarcastic.
# Aug 12 10:47:55 <hsivonen> I can't tell what his point is, either, but the email looks very confused.
# Aug 12 10:50:23 <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes : "We need to structure it so that it's easy for the W3C to accept the RDFa IG. RDFa isn't controversial, so shouldn't be an issue."
# Aug 12 10:52:10 <Lachy> what the? I've never known anyone to claim that <div xmlns:dc="..."> was invalid XML
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# Aug 12 10:52:36 * hsivonen fights the urge to reply to the anti-pattern thread and point out less than factual statements
# Aug 12 10:53:35 <Lachy> hsivonen, which anti-pattern thread?
# Aug 12 10:53:54 <Lachy> oh, on rdfa list
# Aug 12 10:53:55 <hsivonen> Lachy: on public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf
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# Aug 12 10:58:49 <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/spec-annotated.html first cut with no headers or stylesheet and with all the removed sections and so on left in
# Aug 12 11:00:35 <annevk42> the BWTP guys know that eventually the UTF-8 frame type won't be the only option available, right?
# Aug 12 11:00:47 <annevk42> they're so fixated on it...
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# Aug 12 11:07:57 <annevk42> would it make sense to extend bogus comments to also include <% ?
# Aug 12 11:07:58 <annevk42> apparently WebKit/Trident already does that
# Aug 12 11:08:21 <hsivonen> annevk42: is it guys or guy?
# Aug 12 11:08:23 <annevk42> and e.g. http://www.lex24.ilsole24ore.com/Redazione/Riforma_cpc/Riforma.html would look better at the bottom
# Aug 12 11:08:46 <annevk42> hsivonen, there's more on the hybi list
# Aug 12 11:08:49 <annevk42> but fair enough
# Aug 12 11:09:21 <gsnedders|work> annevk42: Is that not quirks only, at least in WebKit?
# Aug 12 11:09:33 <annevk42> no
# Aug 12 11:10:21 <Lachy> jgraham, what have you added to that copy of the spec?
# Aug 12 11:10:21 * svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 11:10:41 <annevk42> also at the top of that page, not just the bottom
# Aug 12 11:10:55 <Lachy> ah, I see, a few sections have Status annotations
# Aug 12 11:12:04 <jgraham> Lachy: It should in theory be all sections that have status annotations in the WHATWG draft but I may have missed some
# Aug 12 11:12:10 <hsivonen> jgraham: let's ship it!
# Aug 12 11:13:00 <jgraham> s/I/my code/
# Aug 12 11:14:29 <Lachy> jgraham, the one for the introduction is missing, which is the one I checked for first and didn't see
# Aug 12 11:14:59 <annevk42> hsivonen, how do you feel about having <% besides <? ?
# Aug 12 11:15:00 <Lachy> wait, that's weird. It is there
# Aug 12 11:15:31 <jgraham> Lachy: I don't have the introduction do I?
# Aug 12 11:15:52 <jgraham> It's in the header which I don't have
# Aug 12 11:15:55 <Lachy> yeah, you do. It says:
# Aug 12 11:15:55 <Lachy> Introduction
# Aug 12 11:15:55 <Lachy> Status: Working draft
# Aug 12 11:15:55 <Lachy> 1 Background
# Aug 12 11:15:58 <Lachy> ...
# Aug 12 11:16:17 <Lachy> the abstract is in the header
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# Aug 12 11:17:19 <jgraham> Oh yeah
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# Aug 12 11:19:33 <hsivonen> annevk42: assuming that WebKit/Trident already does it, I'm open to trying it.
# Aug 12 11:21:36 * roc (n=roc@121.74.155.225) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 11:21:40 <Lachy> unless supporting it is really needed for compatibility reasons, I don't think we should
# Aug 12 11:22:17 <Lachy> have Mozilla received any bugs about supporting it?
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# Aug 12 11:23:02 <roc> supportin gwhat?
# Aug 12 11:23:09 <gsnedders|work> <% as comments
# Aug 12 11:23:50 <Lachy> roc, webkit and trident apparently support it
# Aug 12 11:24:25 * matijs (i=53a1029b@gateway/web/freenode/x-2f5ab46d8913a45c) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 11:25:21 <hsivonen> Lachy: no bugs against the HTML5 parser at least
# Aug 12 11:26:26 <Philip`> http://brand.icxo.com/htmlnews/2007/07/11/919666_1.htm
# Aug 12 11:26:41 <Philip`> http://yuanyunfu.artron.net/exhibi_2.php?aid=A0000016&wrkid=BRT000000033876
# Aug 12 11:26:48 <Philip`> http://www.51234.org/sy/3777.html
# Aug 12 11:27:20 <Lachy> Philip`, it depends on whether supporting that as a comment is really the best solution. If they're only testing it with browsers that do, then that would explain why they havne't noticed or fixed the error
# Aug 12 11:27:30 <hsivonen> the last one is a "reported attack page!"
# Aug 12 11:27:56 <Lachy> and presumably they have no intention of outputting JSP into the HTML
# Aug 12 11:28:38 <hsivonen> it's pretty clear that it's error recovery that makes the error less obvious to authors
# Aug 12 11:28:45 <annevk42> well, a) the cost is minor and b) it is far more likely they just tested in IE than anything else
# Aug 12 11:28:57 <hsivonen> the question is if Gecko and Opera are worse off by not doing it if Trident and WebKit do it
# Aug 12 11:29:11 <hsivonen> also, the implementation would be trivial
# Aug 12 11:29:26 <hsivonen> no new states. just another transition
# Aug 12 11:29:27 <Philip`> Most of the <%...s seem to be in attribute values rather than in text content
# Aug 12 11:29:48 <hsivonen> assuming we are OK with the % in the trailing %> ending up in comment data
# Aug 12 11:30:39 <annevk42> I don't think that matters one bit
# Aug 12 11:30:53 <Lachy> I think the question we should be asking is if Microsoft and Apple would be willing to drop support for it
# Aug 12 11:31:05 <annevk42> it's an error, but for the pages I've looked at so far not displaying <% is better
# Aug 12 11:32:46 <Philip`> http://blog.pewitt.org/CommentView,guid,56fbd9c0-6c0b-4773-abb7-dafb40fae8a7.aspx
# Aug 12 11:33:20 <Philip`> That one looks a bit like it intentionally wants to use <%...%> as a comment
# Aug 12 11:40:42 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: yt?
# Aug 12 11:45:19 <jgraham> Lachy: After discussion with gsnedders|work I will convert the author view generator to a anolis module that runs before things like the toc are generated
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# Aug 12 11:48:07 * riven` (n=colin@53525B67.cable.casema.nl) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 11:49:23 <gsnedders|work> jgraham: http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:5iAdTkTth4EJ:krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090703+http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090703&hl=en&client=opera&strip=1#l-1126
# Aug 12 11:49:34 <Lachy> jgraham, ok
# Aug 12 11:50:29 <Lachy> what's happened to krijn?
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# Aug 12 11:52:24 <annevk42> he's in hiding
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# Aug 12 11:55:16 <svl> The computer he logs things from isn't exactly the most stable. :/
# Aug 12 11:56:40 <annevk42> given that nobody else seems to be willing to log, it's been pretty awesome for us :)
# Aug 12 11:56:57 <annevk42> I filed a bug on the <% crap btw
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# Aug 12 12:01:03 * tantekc (n=tantekc@ool-4570acce.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #whatwg
# Aug 12 12:10:14 <gsnedders|work> Wait! This means the evil cabal can say anything!
# Aug 12 12:11:04 * remysharp (n=remyshar@87.252.35.199) has joined #whatwg
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# Aug 12 12:13:36 <remysharp> Is Lachy around?
# Aug 12 12:13:56 <Lachy> remysharp, yes
# Aug 12 12:14:16 <remysharp> hi - I've got a link for you - discussion possible alternatives to the legend issue
# Aug 12 12:14:26 <Lachy> ok
# Aug 12 12:14:36 <remysharp> it's not for public consumption - I couldn't get a preview of the blog post - but here you go:
# Aug 12 12:14:42 <remysharp> http://remysharp.com/figure-legend.html
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# Aug 12 12:15:40 <Lachy> Not for public consumption? By posting it here, you've made it public anyway
# Aug 12 12:15:44 <remysharp> brucel: I've added your example in too: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/tests/html5-details-label.html
# Aug 12 12:15:59 <remysharp> sorry, not quite what I meant - as in it's a blog post
# Aug 12 12:16:05 <Lachy> ah
# Aug 12 12:16:14 <remysharp> it's not the "real" url, more that comments won't work! :)
# Aug 12 12:16:26 <remysharp> screw it I can publish it now anyway.
# Aug 12 12:18:34 <Lachy> remysharp, I'll take a look in a moment, just busy with some work stuff right now
# Aug 12 12:18:48 <remysharp> np
# Aug 12 12:19:27 <remysharp> This is the latest url anyway - with examples of alternatives to the legend in figure & details issue: http://remysharp.com/2009/08/12/saving-figure-detail/
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# Aug 12 12:24:21 <Lachy> remysharp, your claim about hgroup isn't quite correct
# Aug 12 12:24:39 <gsnedders|work> Should <iframe></iframe> fire an onload event?
# Aug 12 12:24:47 <remysharp> okay, so it *would* come up in the TOC?
# Aug 12 12:24:54 <remysharp> Lachy: enlighten me :-)
# Aug 12 12:25:04 <Lachy> basically, using <hgroup> means that all the headings inside it are grouped, such that they only the top level heading within it will appear in the TOC
# Aug 12 12:25:17 <gsnedders|work> remysharp: hgroup comes up in the TOC as the highest ranked heading within
# Aug 12 12:25:30 <remysharp> Right - so actually it's not a viable solution at all in my particular example - cheers.
# Aug 12 12:25:32 <Lachy> so, e.g. <hgroup><h2>Foo</h2><h3>Bar</h3></hgroup> should appear in the TOC as "Foo"
# Aug 12 12:25:37 * remysharp updating post
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# Aug 12 12:26:28 * remy_ (n=remyshar@cpc4-brig15-0-0-cust429.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #whatwg
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# Aug 12 12:26:41 <remy_> whoops!
# Aug 12 12:27:44 * [remy_] (n=remyshar@cpc4-brig15-0-0-cust429.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com): Remy Sharp
# Aug 12 12:27:44 * [remy_] #jquery-ot #whatwg #jquery
# Aug 12 12:27:44 * [remy_] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
# Aug 12 12:27:44 * [remy_] End of WHOIS list.
# Aug 12 12:28:45 <Lachy> remy_, I'm not a big fan of reusing <header> for this purpose. As I told brucel yesterday, it's not the right semantics.
# Aug 12 12:28:59 <remy_> Aye, he mentioned that too
# Aug 12 12:29:06 <remy_> I just want to get the alternatives up there.
# Aug 12 12:29:22 <remy_> My preference is label, but I want to see what screenreaders do when it's embedded in a form
# Aug 12 12:29:27 <annevk42> you people should just be patience
# Aug 12 12:29:37 <Lachy> yeah, it's good to have a discussion about the alternatives again to show that Hixie's stubbornness about using <legend> is not good
# Aug 12 12:29:42 <annevk42> with time <legend> will be fine
# Aug 12 12:29:48 <brucel> I think that we're open to almost any solution as legend won't fly
# Aug 12 12:29:57 <remy_> time? in that time authors won't use legend
# Aug 12 12:29:59 <jgraham> annevk42: I don't think that's a good answer
# Aug 12 12:30:03 <remy_> and there'll be a mess of solutions
# Aug 12 12:30:11 <annevk42> jgraham, I think it is
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# Aug 12 12:30:21 <Lachy> annevk42, that's what Hixie said, but authors are going to push forward with whatever hacks they can to work around the problems today, and unless we come up with a real solution, the result with be a huge mess in the long run
# Aug 12 12:30:33 <jgraham> People think that they ought to be able to use it today since it is not having any effect in UAs and will become frustrated and discouraged when they find that they cannot
# Aug 12 12:30:36 <remy_> by the time all the current browsers have been weeded out it's going to be well beyond 2022!!! :)
# Aug 12 12:30:54 <annevk42> oh please
# Aug 12 12:30:59 <annevk42> stop the drama
# Aug 12 12:31:02 <jgraham> Especially given the long half life of legacy browsers
# Aug 12 12:31:11 <brucel> It will result in either no-one using the new elements (figure, details) or using header/ label anyway
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# Aug 12 12:31:26 <remy_> The bottom line is that I want to give a caption to figure and details. I'll run with my own solution if the spec sticks with legend
# Aug 12 12:31:32 <remy_> and others with have their own solutions
# Aug 12 12:31:44 <remy_> and when it *is* supported properly, we *won't* use legend -
# Aug 12 12:32:10 <remy_> that particular part of the spec, is sadly, fiction. There's no point in it being there because we can't use it at all :(
# Aug 12 12:32:25 <brucel> wrt visuals, legend isn't a cowpath, it's more of a cowpat
# Aug 12 12:32:29 <annevk42> it's like complaining you cannot use <datalist>
# Aug 12 12:32:40 <remy_> not really, because we *can* use datalist
# Aug 12 12:32:48 <remy_> I've seen Dean Edwards demo using it and it works
# Aug 12 12:32:58 <remy_> it doesn't vomit all over the DOM like legend does.
# Aug 12 12:33:12 <Hixie> if we're not using <legend>, i'm dropping <figure> until we can. it's just not an important enough feature for us to worry about.
# Aug 12 12:33:16 <jgraham> annevk42: It makes a difference if, say, firefox implemets <legend> and couples it to AT in a sensible way but I can't use it because of legacy parsing issues in other browsers
# Aug 12 12:33:25 <Hixie> same with <details>
# Aug 12 12:33:33 <jgraham> So I am forced to use some other solution to get those AT hooks
# Aug 12 12:34:22 <brucel> that's daft, Hixie - they're far too useful to drop. Why would you not use label, if it proves to play nice with AT?
# Aug 12 12:34:24 <jgraham> Hixie: Totally disagree. If nothing else it is one of the cornerstones of the @summary situation
# Aug 12 12:34:38 <jgraham> s/situation/compromise/
# Aug 12 12:35:11 <jgraham> Since they represent improved visible-data alternatives to @summary that, unlike <caption>, the a11y community seems to believe in
# Aug 12 12:35:16 * annevk42 is with Hixie on this
# Aug 12 12:35:27 <Hixie> brucel: they're not so useful that we've not been able to live 19 years without them
# Aug 12 12:35:42 <jgraham> Hixie: That is a terrible argument
# Aug 12 12:35:58 <Hixie> jgraham: realistically, neither <figure> not <details> are necessary for including explanatory text about tables
# Aug 12 12:36:00 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: That's true of the whole HTML 5 spec.
# Aug 12 12:36:12 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: We can drop the whole parsing section. We've been able to live without them for 19 years.
# Aug 12 12:36:14 <jgraham> Since it applies to all x for x in html 5 where x is not in HTML 4
# Aug 12 12:36:19 <brucel> When I ran a webteam we would have killed for figure and details
# Aug 12 12:37:00 <jgraham> Hixie: Neither are required but both are better than <caption> in certian situations
# Aug 12 12:37:17 <remy_> Aren't authors (i.e. me) going to end up using aside for figures then - that doesn't quite sit right.
# Aug 12 12:37:21 <brucel> particularly details, as we were not in a position to add jQuery/ scripts to simulate details
# Aug 12 12:37:24 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: no, e.g. <video> we haven't been able to live without (people ended up using proprietary technologies to get around it)
# Aug 12 12:37:28 <Lachy> Hixie, while we can probably live without <details> until UAs are ready to begin supporting it, which might not be a bad idea given that we don't know about potential implementation problems yet, but <figure> is really useful to avoid having to go with the more complicated aria stuff that authors won't readily use
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# Aug 12 12:37:52 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: and the parsing section we've only lived without by having huge reverse-engineering efforts duplicated in all vendors
# Aug 12 12:38:03 <beowulf> wq
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# Aug 12 12:38:14 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: And there's been a lot of duplicated work to make stuff appear like a legend by web authors.
# Aug 12 12:38:25 <Hixie> jgraham: i've never been convinced that either details or figure particularly help with table, to be honest
# Aug 12 12:38:51 <jgraham> Hixie: Other people have, however :)
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# Aug 12 12:40:13 <Hixie> we'll just wait a bit more and see what happens with <legend>
# Aug 12 12:40:29 <remy_> Hixie: *nothing* is going to happen with <legend>
# Aug 12 12:40:35 <remy_> there may be a few new browsers that fix it
# Aug 12 12:40:46 <Hixie> that's not nothing then is it
# Aug 12 12:40:47 <Lachy> to avoid repeating the same arguments again, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0375.html
# Aug 12 12:40:49 <brucel> Hixie: if label plays nicely with AT, what's your aversion to using that?
# Aug 12 12:40:49 <remy_> but 100% of the browser landscape screws the render with it right now
# Aug 12 12:41:13 <Hixie> brucel: label is completely inappropriate. it does weird things with forms, it has weird APIs, etc.
# Aug 12 12:41:15 <Lachy> remy_, that email contains a nice little styling trick you might like to use
# Aug 12 12:41:38 <Hixie> remy_: and 10 years from now, it'll be near-0.
# Aug 12 12:42:03 <remy_> Hixie: you think? I don't think so. I think IE7 and 8 will still have a strong hold on the browser landscape
# Aug 12 12:42:16 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: People are using HTML 5 _today_. 10 years from now HTML 5 will be as relevant as HTML 4.01 is today.
# Aug 12 12:42:29 <Lachy> Hixie, authors don't work in the future, they have to deal with the problems now, so endlessly deferring issues until such time as they might theoretically be fixed is not a good solution
# Aug 12 12:42:34 <brucel> what kind of wierdness with forms/ APIs? Could legend doees terrible things with visuals
# Aug 12 12:43:17 * jgraham is somewhat reminded of "The fact that xHTML2 won't be widely used before the end of the decade is not a problem."
# Aug 12 12:43:22 <brucel> could -> cause
# Aug 12 12:43:59 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: exactly
# Aug 12 12:44:11 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: huh?
# Aug 12 12:44:32 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: If people are using HTML 5 today, surely HTML 5 should be compatible with UAs today?
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# Aug 12 12:44:38 <Hixie> Lachy: we're not "endlessly deferring", we're just waiting until browsers implement the parsing spec. it's already happening. If you want to make it happen sooner, speak to your eng team.
# Aug 12 12:44:41 * remy_ is now known as remysharp
# Aug 12 12:45:20 <remysharp> Seriously though, there's legacy/existing browsers to deal with. The vast majority of the language of HTML 5 works right now
# Aug 12 12:45:24 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: in the soundbite world, maybe; in the real world, specs and implementations co-evolve over many years.
# Aug 12 12:45:38 <Hixie> remysharp: the vast majority of the HTML5 language doesn't work right now.
# Aug 12 12:45:39 <remysharp> this is the exception and <figure> is an element we, as authors, want to use
# Aug 12 12:46:11 <gsnedders|work> Hixie: The vast majority of HTML 5 can be made to work quite easily
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# Aug 12 12:47:02 <remysharp> gsnedders|work: spot on.
# Aug 12 12:47:10 <Lachy> Hixie, the point is that <legend> fails to meet the graceful degredation principle
# Aug 12 12:47:16 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: show me an implementation of pushState(). of <audio>. of UndoManager. of <script async>. of <iframe sandbox>.
# Aug 12 12:48:10 <Hixie> remysharp: if you want to use it, the most effective thing you can do is ask browser vendors to fix their parsers.
# Aug 12 12:48:12 <remysharp> sorry, by language I'm talking about the elements (a small part of HTML 5 admittedly)
# Aug 12 12:48:26 <Hixie> just elements? or attributes also?
# Aug 12 12:48:48 <remysharp> Sure but the starting point for authors is the elements, no?
# Aug 12 12:49:31 <Hixie> i don't think there really is a meaningful concept of "starting point" that applies here
# Aug 12 12:49:35 <remysharp> speaking to other authors, that's what they're focusing on right now. I love the JS stuff, I think it's awesome, but right now, the interest is being able to use better semantics in the docs
# Aug 12 12:49:51 <Hixie> right now the interest is in being able to use what works
# Aug 12 12:49:58 <remysharp> Absolutely
# Aug 12 12:50:02 <Hixie> well that doesn't include <figure>
# Aug 12 12:50:08 <Hixie> so stop using it :-)
# Aug 12 12:50:13 <remysharp> that's right -
# Aug 12 12:50:20 <remysharp> but we're sooo close to be able to use it :)
# Aug 12 12:50:23 <brucel> only because of the insistence on legend does it not work
# Aug 12 12:50:24 <jgraham> Hixie: From the point of view of vendors changing the whole parser has a high risk since it consumes a great deal of resources and may lead to compat regressions. On the other hand the reward for vendors of being able to say "we support the <figure> element" is much smaller than being able to say "we support <video>" or whatever
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# Aug 12 12:50:40 <Hixie> jgraham: why is it so much smaller?
# Aug 12 12:50:47 <jgraham> You are placing the onus in the wrong place compared to the benefits
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# Aug 12 12:51:12 * tantekc tends to agree with brucel and remysharp - <label> is preferable to <legend>, and both <figure> and <details> seem quite practically useful.
# Aug 12 12:51:44 <jgraham> Hixie: Because <video> is an end-user visible feature that reduces the dependence on, often unstable, plugins
# Aug 12 12:51:51 <hsivonen> I think we should consider both <label> and <legend> tainted as far as use in <figure> or <details> goes
# Aug 12 12:52:05 <Hixie> <label>'s a non-starter.
# Aug 12 12:52:06 <hsivonen> although I can't quite remember what the problem with <label> was
# Aug 12 12:52:11 <jgraham> <figure> is mainly useful for authors and AT
# Aug 12 12:52:12 <remysharp> are there any tests that show label is problematic?
# Aug 12 12:52:19 <Hixie> e.g. it would prevent you from having form controls in captions or <details>'s legend.
# Aug 12 12:52:42 <gsnedders|work> uh, what's the use-case for that?
# Aug 12 12:53:11 <Lachy> I'm not thrilled about the idea of reusing label, as discussed in that email I linked to above, but I prefer it over legend
# Aug 12 12:53:19 <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Form controls in <details> should be obvious
# Aug 12 12:53:20 <remysharp> gsnedders|work: possibly an advanced section search...maybe
# Aug 12 12:53:25 <hsivonen> the spec feedback box makes "find on page" less useful in Firefox
# Aug 12 12:53:29 <Hixie> gsnedders|work: a fill-in wysiwyg form on Flickr that allows you to type in the title of the photo and the photo credit, say.
# Aug 12 12:54:27 <remysharp> so exactly what is the issue if there's a form inside a <detail> with labels? I don't know what the browser would do /justasking
# Aug 12 12:54:37 <Hixie> anyway. the only browser that doesn't get rapid uptake is IE, and in IE you can pretty easily work around the parsing of legend.
# Aug 12 12:54:40 <Hixie> so it's not a big deal.
# Aug 12 12:54:44 <tantekc> Hixie - isn't the Flickr editable scenario actually just contentEditable?
# Aug 12 12:54:45 <gsnedders|work> remysharp: <label> would imply a closing </label>
# Aug 12 12:55:09 <Hixie> tantekc: i don't see why it would be
# Aug 12 12:55:13 <Lachy> my preferred solution is introducing a new element if we can find a suitable name (maybe <c>?), or possibly redefining <header> as remysharp suggested
# Aug 12 12:55:38 <hsivonen> remysharp: <label><input></label> makes the label become the label for for the input
# Aug 12 12:55:46 <karlcow> "When a LABEL element receives focus, it passes the focus on to its associated control." - http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.9
# Aug 12 12:56:15 <hsivonen> Do iframe, noembed or noframes really need the  escape functionality?
# Aug 12 12:56:41 <remysharp> aye, but if there's no associated input element, what happens, I thought nothing (assuming the input element isn't embedded inside the <label>)?
# Aug 12 12:56:44 * remysharp just mocking a test
# Aug 12 12:56:48 <hsivonen> hmm. I imagine they might if there are "comments" in the fallback markup
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# Aug 12 13:02:19 <hsivonen> whee! MediaWiki doesn't allow me to say
# Aug 12 13:02:22 <remysharp> Lachy: there's something funky (as in not great) with the email you gave me: http://jsbin.com/uraco (2nd form, styles the label for input el as the caption for the <detail>)
# Aug 12 13:03:23 <remysharp> Lachy: hmm - in fact, looking at FF3.5 there's a rendering bug, if I trigger a redraw, it correctly puts the label in the table caption, but on load it doesn't work.
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# Aug 12 13:06:49 <hsivonen> Did I miss any requirements: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CDATA_Escapes#Requirements ?
# Aug 12 13:07:20 <Lachy> remysharp, brucel, as a workaround, I'd recommend instead of misusing other new elements, you could just use <span class="legend"> for now, and then when legend finally is supported, it's easy to switch to <legend>
# Aug 12 13:07:29 <hsivonen> in particular, is the ability to use "</style>" in CSS string literals inside inline CSS a Web compat requirement?
# Aug 12 13:07:52 <Lachy> and since no UA actually does anything with <figure> or <legend> now anyway, you don't lose much by sticking with <span> for the short term
# Aug 12 13:08:49 <remysharp> Lachy: I guess that's my problem, if we use something like span, we'll end up either sticking with it (and not switching in years to come) or there'll be all kinds of inconsistent solutions out there - as there is now.
# Aug 12 13:09:12 <Hixie> ok i'm going to bed now
# Aug 12 13:09:16 <remysharp> If the spec remains, then yeah, I'll be using my own way to solve this, but it just feels like it's close to being right
# Aug 12 13:09:28 <Hixie> nn
# Aug 12 13:11:59 <hsivonen> Lachy: if you can stick to span now, why bother with <legend> later?
# Aug 12 13:12:50 <hsivonen> remysharp: <caption> is even more tainted than <label> and <legend>
# Aug 12 13:13:00 <Lachy> hsivonen, because the benefit of using <figure>/<legend> is that you get the prober association, which helps with accessibility. Using span will never provide that, but it's a quick and easy workaround that won't cause irreperable harm later
# Aug 12 13:13:16 <remysharp> hsivonen: oh, absolutely, it's completely screwed in the browser outside of a <table> element
# Aug 12 13:14:05 <brucel> I'm not seeing any ill-effects using label inside details ina form when I don't associate label using for="id" (because it's inside the details element so doesn't need explicitly associating)
# Aug 12 13:14:23 <hsivonen> <header> sucks, because it pairs nicely with "footer", and having it for two radically different purposes would be bad
# Aug 12 13:14:29 <brucel> Have asked some friends with screenreaders to see what happens for them
# Aug 12 13:14:38 <brucel> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/tests/html5-details-label.html
# Aug 12 13:15:13 <Lachy> hsivonen, the point is, blatently misusing elements like <header> now is going to potentially create more problems later when UAs try to make sense out of the element in the future, beyond the normal problems created by the inevitable unintentional misuse
# Aug 12 13:16:00 <hsivonen> I'd prefer to have a completely novel element name for the purpose that the spec now uses <legend> for in <details> and <figure>
# Aug 12 13:16:00 <brucel> would like to know more about the label wierdness that Hixie alluded to
# Aug 12 13:16:15 <hsivonen> I can't think of a good English word
# Aug 12 13:16:22 <jmb> <description> ?
# Aug 12 13:16:28 <remysharp> Lachy: if that's the case, then I'd like to find out what screenreaders do with label
# Aug 12 13:16:29 <jmb> even if it is overly verbose
# Aug 12 13:16:35 <hsivonen> jmb: could work!
# Aug 12 13:16:46 * jgraham could live with <description>
# Aug 12 13:16:52 <remysharp> jmb: that just feels like we're repeating <caption> <heading> <label>, etc doesn't it?
# Aug 12 13:16:54 <brucel> hsivonen, I'm agnostic about the actual element we do use - just not legend as we can;t use that now or forseeable future
# Aug 12 13:17:03 <Lachy> <desc> would be better
# Aug 12 13:17:10 * remysharp agrees with brucel too though
# Aug 12 13:17:16 <hsivonen> Lachy: overlaps with SVG, we don't want more SVG overlap
# Aug 12 13:17:18 <brucel> what about longdesc?? (heh)
# Aug 12 13:17:19 <jmb> remysharp: I don't deny that
# Aug 12 13:17:19 <Lachy> oh, damn
# Aug 12 13:17:27 <annevk42> can't you guys just put your effort into getting browsers fixed?
# Aug 12 13:17:31 <Lachy> <summary> :-)
# Aug 12 13:17:56 <jgraham> annevk42: What more would you like me to do to get browsers fixed?
# Aug 12 13:17:58 <annevk42> Gecko is getting fixed, WebKit shouldn't be too hard to fix either, and I'm sure a few here can try to get Opera inline
# Aug 12 13:18:00 <brucel> sure, I'll get on the phone to Redmond straight after lunch, annevk42
# Aug 12 13:18:01 <remysharp> annevk42: because we still have to work with existing browsers
# Aug 12 13:18:14 <annevk42> there's a workaround for IE, no?
# Aug 12 13:18:36 <jgraham> Lachy: <summary> has the wrong english meaning
# Aug 12 13:18:49 <brucel> why have workarounds when there's a chance to spec a work-straight?
# Aug 12 13:18:50 <remysharp> annevk42: IE completely shitcans the legend element
# Aug 12 13:18:57 <remysharp> annevk42: http://remysharp.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ies-details-element-treatment.jpg
# Aug 12 13:19:29 <Lachy> actually, if we use <figure><summary> and <details><summary>, then we could make people happy and allow them to use it for table too in some way and finally ditch summary=""
# Aug 12 13:19:45 <annevk42> remysharp, also with createElement?
# Aug 12 13:20:06 <annevk42> oh well, I don't really care until 3 years from now :)
# Aug 12 13:20:14 <remysharp> annevk42: do you mean on the detail element?
# Aug 12 13:20:16 <jgraham> Lachy: Still has the wrong english meaning
# Aug 12 13:20:20 <remysharp> annevk42: if so, yeah, that's on there.
# Aug 12 13:21:21 <Lachy> jgraham, it's not completely inaccurate.
# Aug 12 13:21:30 <hsivonen> Lachy: worse than <description>
# Aug 12 13:22:07 <hsivonen> what about <fc> for "figure caption"?
# Aug 12 13:22:57 <remysharp> hsivonen: but then we'll have <dc>, which seems daft if it's the same thing, no?
# Aug 12 13:22:57 <brucel> while I like description, could live with summary, could live with label, c, fc and dc (for details caption), Hixie said he'll take his toys home if he can't have legend
# Aug 12 13:22:57 <Lachy> Since caption is defined as "A title, short explanation, or description accompanying an illustration or a photograph." (answers.com) and a summary is like a short explanation
# Aug 12 13:23:03 <Lachy> but <description> is acceptable
# Aug 12 13:23:21 <hsivonen> remysharp: daft, but better than <legend>
# Aug 12 13:23:37 <remysharp> hsivonen: dude, *anything* is better than <legend> right now! :)
# Aug 12 13:23:50 <hsivonen> oh, and <c> would work, too
# Aug 12 13:24:12 <remysharp> isn't <c> an attempted replacement for <caption> then?
# Aug 12 13:24:15 <Lachy> brucel, I wouldn't worry about Hixie. He can usually be convinced with reasonable arguments
# Aug 12 13:24:39 <Lachy> yes, <c> is good if we accept new single letter element names
# Aug 12 13:24:39 <hsivonen> how do I create a <dt> element it mediawiki?
# Aug 12 13:24:59 <Lachy> our previous attempts at doing so have all been replaced with longer names
# Aug 12 13:25:08 <remysharp> Lachy: that's a slippery slope isn't it?
# Aug 12 13:25:22 <remysharp> I mean, I'm all for it if we need a new element though.
# Aug 12 13:25:25 <Lachy> what slippery slope?
# Aug 12 13:25:28 <brucel> so where do we go from here wrt to <c>, description, <rubric>, etc?
# Aug 12 13:25:36 <remysharp> using single letter elements
# Aug 12 13:25:48 <Lachy> I don't see how that's a slippery slope
# Aug 12 13:26:04 <remysharp> Lachy: that's cool then :)
# Aug 12 13:26:17 <Lachy> we have <a>, <b>, <i> and they haven't caused any problems
# Aug 12 13:27:01 <hsivonen> brucel: I suggest filing a bug against the spec in the W3C Bugzilla explaining why <legend> sucks and why alternatives suck less
# Aug 12 13:27:54 <brucel> like I said, am agnostic about name of new element (if we can't reuse label/ caption for reasons I don't understand so be it: I'm all for pragmatism). But figure and details are highly useful but not if unstylable. (I know of one accessibility-focussed agency that already regularly use <hx> rather than legend because of the visual horrors that it entails)
# Aug 12 13:28:22 <hsivonen> brucel: please mention that in the bug
# Aug 12 13:29:20 <Lachy> brucel, yeah, and if you can, be specific about which organisation, as it could give a little more weight to the argument, especially if they're of any real significance
# Aug 12 13:30:28 <brucel> will ask them if they'd go "on record" (tho they're talking unstylability of html4 form legends, not html5 extended legends)
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# Aug 12 13:31:45 <brucel> Is the process of filing a w3c bugzilla bug documented anywhere (as it's almost cetainly elaborate)?
# Aug 12 13:31:47 <Lachy> yeah, well, I've heard of a few people thinking that the old fashion design of fieldset/legend makes them unappealing to use
# Aug 12 13:32:10 <Lachy> brucel, yes, one sec...
# Aug 12 13:33:20 <brucel> I guess a mail to the list would be useful too - maybe accessibility-focussed readers would know more about how AT reacts to labels in figure and details
# Aug 12 13:34:19 <Lachy> brucel, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTML5+spec+bugs
# Aug 12 13:34:33 <Lachy> just write a summary and comment, and then submit
# Aug 12 13:36:37 <Lachy> http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/08/12/judge-orders-microsoft-to-stop-selling-word
# Aug 12 13:38:43 <Lachy> I wonder how much that will impact organisations in the US that depend on MS Word
# Aug 12 13:38:52 <hsivonen> Lachy: not good. (the MS patent thing)
# Aug 12 13:39:19 <hsivonen> the only silver lining is that it demonstrates the evilness of software idea patents
# Aug 12 13:40:22 <brucel> cheers Lachy. Bye y'all.
# Aug 12 13:40:53 <Lachy> yeah, but there have been plenty of patent infringment cases that demonstrate the same thing, and yet still they persist
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#
# [14:03] <krijnh> Testin'
# [14:03] <Philip`> Passin'
# [14:03] <krijnh> Tee hee
# [14:10] <Philip`> Looks like it probably shouldn't be too unreasonable for Microsoft to change OOXML to remove the feature that infringes the patent
# [14:11] <Philip`> (like, it wouldn't involve redesigning the entire file format)
# [14:11] <gsnedders|work> Or moving away from XML, or anything big.
# [14:13] * jgraham doesn't understand the patent at all since it uses lots of words like "metacodes" that he doens't understand
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# [14:14] <jgraham> Although it seems to be about associating external metadata with a document, which, if I have not misunderstood, is an insane thing to have a patent on
# [14:14] <jmb> jgraham: sounds like most patents
# [14:15] <jmb> jgraham: i.e. completely incomprehensible
# [14:15] <Philip`> jgraham: It gives some clear examples later on
#
# Session Start: Wed Aug 12 14:17:05 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [14:17] * Now talking in #whatwg
# [14:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [14:17] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
# [14:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah I just read enough to grasp that
# [14:21] <jgraham> That is incredibly silly
# [14:21] <jgraham> I mean it might work but it is a really obvious idea
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# [14:28] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/cdata.png
# [14:29] <Philip`> Not sure it's a lot easier to read than hsivonen's text version, but maybe it is
# [14:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: Do you know whether actual minifiers do escape </script>?
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# [14:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. linked from wiki
# [14:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't
# [14:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: That seems important to find out
# [14:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes
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# [14:37] <hsivonen> sigh. Crockford's minifier has a field of use restriction that makes it non-Free
# [14:37] <jgraham> I would expect them not to since escaping adds bytes and is not needed for HTML compat
# [14:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's a reasonable expectation
# [14:38] <Philip`> www.cheapextinguishers.com/index.php?cPath=18&osCsid=ab35aa82681ce6a1c114d53f70a3f56c </title></a><script>var o=document.links[3];if(o)o.innerHTML=o.innerHTML.replace(/\n([^"]+)/g,'');</script>
# [14:38] <hsivonen> more reasonable than my expectation
# [14:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: ouch
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# [14:39] <hsivonen> I fail
# [14:39] <Philip`> www.zelluloid.de/person/index.php3?id=79678 <script type="text/javascript">var szu=encodeURIComponent(location.href); var szt=encodeURIComponent(document.title).replace(/\'/g,'`'); var szjsh=(window.location.protocol == 'https:'?'https://ssl.seitzeichen.de/':'http://w3.seitzeichen.de/'); document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + szjsh + "w/86/3c/widget_863ce3df0b6bac66bf9259e95ee3a1bf.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E"));</scri
# [14:40] <Philip`> pt>
# [14:40] <jgraham> So we either need to implement the RegExpLiteral production from ECMAScript or do something different
# [14:40] <Philip`> Lots of pages seem to have that pattern
# [14:40] <Philip`> and if I'm counting the quotes correctly, it'll break
# [14:45] <hsivonen> IS there any way to tell apart regexps and divisions without a full JS parser?
# [14:46] <Philip`> <script>g=1; x=2
# [14:46] <Philip`> /3/g;
# [14:46] <Philip`> /4/g;
# [14:46] <Philip`> </script>
# [14:46] <Philip`> Doesn't look fun
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# [14:54] <Philip`> Even ignoring the regexp stuff, it'll break when someone writes something like <script language=vbscript>document.write("hello world") ' comment</script>
# [14:54] <Philip`> (though I don't have any examples of that in practice)
# [14:54] <hsivonen> oh crap.
# [14:54] <Philip`> (but it seems like a legitimate thing to write (at least to the extent VBScript is legitimate))
# [14:55] <Philip`> (If you don't like VBScript, imagine it's <script language=python>print("hello world") # that's an excellent greeting</script>)
# [14:56] * Philip` doesn't like the idea of making non-JS languages so fragile, even if JS could be handled perfectly
# [14:57] <hsivonen> non-JS languages are extensibility and extensibility is bad :-)
# [14:57] <Philip`> Extensibility is only bad when other people extend it in ways we don't like
# [14:57] <Philip`> and we like Python so that's good
# [14:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm pretty sure you need a full parser
# [14:58] <Philip`> Even just with JS, there's <script type=text/javascript;e4x=1><x></x></script>
# [14:59] <hsivonen> e4x in inline script is just looking for trouble
# [14:59] <jgraham> mmmm e4x
# [15:00] <Philip`> It's lucky that web authors are always so careful to stay out of trouble, then
# [15:00] <hsivonen> I wish <script> had a sane parsing model to begin with...
# [15:01] <Philip`> Has anyone demonstrated a practical attack based on script reparsing?
# [15:02] <hsivonen> I don't know
# [15:02] <jgraham> What is the theoretical attack?
# [15:02] <hsivonen> the next interesting thing is whether <!-- can be made not take effect if there's non-whitespace on the line before it
# [15:05] * jgraham worries about minifiers again
# [15:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: are there instances of <!-- in the wild where it's meant to be an escape but it's not at the start of a line?
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# [15:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Dunno, ask Philip`
# [15:07] <Philip`> jgraham: Server returns a page with <script>var x="$escaped_user_input"</script> (safely escaping any '"' and '</script>'), attacker inputs "<img onload=alert('oops')>......", attacker somehow causes the output to stop before it prints the </script>, their own script gets executed, I guess
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# [15:09] <Philip`> (Maybe their input includes U+0000 or some invalid bytes or something, so the server dies with an error message after printing half the output)
# [15:10] <Philip`> Is this the theoretical attack that people are thinking of?
# [15:11] <hsivonen> I guess the careful server needs to escape < as \u003C
# [15:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: your attack works in WebKit: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/205
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# [15:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: I can't think of any easy way of searching for cases where <!-- is used for escaping
# [15:20] <jgraham> Is is possible to do reparsing whilst mitigating that attack?
# [15:20] <jgraham> What does gecko do?
# [15:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: Philip`'s attack works is Gecko, too (with the old parser)
# [15:21] <Philip`> It runs the script in hsivonen's example too
# [15:21] <Philip`> (in Firefox 3.0 at least)
# [15:22] <jgraham> Oh right, I forgot I was using the new parser. Oops
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# [15:31] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CDATA_Escapes#Proposal_.232
# [15:31] <hsivonen> how about Proposal #2?
# [15:33] <hsivonen> does it suck, too?
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# [15:36] <hsivonen> when was maxlength put back on textarea?
# [15:36] <annevk42> is 2b easy to implement?
# [15:37] <hsivonen> annevk42: should be easy enough
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# [15:40] <hsivonen> having to escape < as \u003C in inline JS pretty much defeats to point of having it parse as CDATA to begin with...
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# [15:42] <Philip`> You probably only really need to escape user input like that, not your own trusted code
# [15:42] <jgraham> annevk42: I assume you just need a couple of extra states indicating that you are at the start of a line with only whitespace and so on
# [15:42] <nessy> resolutions...
# [15:42] <nessy> ups - wrong window
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# [16:30] <hsivonen> can someone remind me of a host-native object whose constructor is exposed on window and the constructor takes an optional argument?
# [16:32] <remysharp> is there an svg version of the whatwg logo about (I found a reference on an old email but I couldn't get the attachment)? ta
# [16:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: What do you mean by host-native?
# [16:32] <hsivonen> remysharp: you could extract the logo from Sam Ruby's blog assuming he is OK with it
# [16:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: backed by C++
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# [16:34] <hsivonen> hmm. Worker
# [16:35] <hsivonen> Now I'm confused
# [16:35] <Philip`> Image?
# [16:35] <Philip`> (Optional width and height)
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# [16:36] <jgraham> Aren't all arguments in js effectively optional
# [16:36] <jgraham> Since they are just replaced by undefined
# [16:36] <hsivonen> Image is different, because the interface name and the contructor name differ
# [16:36] <Philip`> Ah
# [16:38] <hsivonen> apparently Gecko's IDL doesn't support WebIDL constructors automagically
# [16:38] <hsivonen> sigh.
# [16:39] <hsivonen> I'm in a maze of indirection
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# [17:02] <hsivonen> is there some kind of convention for JS constructors to ignore extra arguments if there's a larger number of args than what spec allows?
# [17:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: That happens in js in general
# [17:03] <hsivonen> ok
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# [17:57] <rubys> Sam is OK with people using my SVG logos.
# [17:58] <annevk5> that makes it sound like you're two persons :)
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# [17:59] <rubys> Yeah, I could have phrased that better.
# [18:00] <jgraham> It would explain a lot
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# [19:02] <beowulf> i wonder if the net effect of publishing a spec draft with warnings will be that people are disinclined to submit feedback on the items marked controversial
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# [19:06] <annevk5> it's likely we'll publish that draft then?
# [19:07] <beowulf> i think the poll shows without-warnings 10 ahead, and publishing one only as a majority
# [19:10] <Dashiva> It's only 6 ahead, and shrinking :)
# [19:13] <rubys> My only hope was that it ends up with one side being a clear winner. Looks like I'm not likely to get that.
# [19:13] <Dashiva> Well, 'one draft' is a solid winner
# [19:17] <Philip`> We should start a grassroots get-out-the-vote campaign
# [19:18] <Dashiva> Philip`: Ask Ericsson
# [19:19] <Lachy> the with warnings draft still has over 50% voting no, though it is close
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# [19:21] <Philip`> Manu says: "Clearly /something/ caused the WAI/PFWG to object, en masse, to the way things were being handled re: @summary in HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0556.html"
# [19:21] <Philip`> Maybe someone should point him to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0583.html - "Of course it is not from WAI"
# [19:22] * Dashiva goes to check up on that "microdata makes sense" email, to see if there's any response
# [19:23] <Philip`> I think the only discussion on that list has been with someone who seems to not understand XML Namespaces
# [19:24] <Dashiva> 0 replies, how surprising
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# [19:26] <Lachy> Philip`, feel free to do so.
# [19:26] <annevk5> 'The "real" reason why xmlns should "not" be used' is a nice thread
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# [19:26] <Philip`> Lachy: No thanks
# [19:27] <Philip`> I'll just mention it on IRC and maybe he'll read the logs
# [19:28] <Dashiva> Philip`: Or maybe he'll accidentally skip over your line
# [19:28] <Philip`> Quite possibly
# [19:29] <Philip`> Anyway it doesn't seem a point worth wasting tens of man-minutes on by posting to the list
# [19:29] <Dashiva> That's what www-archive is for :P
# [19:30] <Philip`> It doesn't seem a point worth wasting man-minutes on by posting to www-archive
# [19:30] <Lachy> yeah, that's why I'm not doing it myself. The claim about all the objections coming from WAI has been debunked several times before. Once more probably won't help
# [19:31] <Lachy> just like so many other debunked claims people keep repeating
# [19:31] <Dashiva> Philip`: Anyone reading www-archive has accepted waste up-front
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# [19:36] <Lachy> spending a few seconds deciding to ignore waste on www-archive is outweighed by the good stuff that often gets posted there
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# [19:41] <rubys> I've got Richard Schwerdtfeger to agree to discuss the current state of the answers to Ian's questions on ARIA on tomorrow's call, and it is my opinion that these answers will be enough to unblock Ian. Now the question is: what does it take to get Hixie to join this *one* call?
# [19:42] <annevk5> why can't Richard just say it over email?
# [19:42] <annevk5> will give us a clearer log of the state too...
# [19:43] <rubys> why is the sky blue?
# [19:43] <annevk5> I'm not a physicist
# [19:43] <Dashiva> It's not just Ian who doesn't attend the calls
# [19:44] <Dashiva> Don't the rest of the non-callers deserve to hear the answers too?
# [19:44] <rubys> I am not a psychologist.
# [19:44] <rubys> the answers will be minuted.
# [19:45] <annevk5> well, that's all I had
# [19:45] <rubys> I believe a dialog is necessary. And what has been going on the mailing list is not exactly a dialog.
# [19:45] <annevk5> I assumed that since you were able to talk directly with Richard that much would be clear
# [19:46] <rubys> I think I've been pretty clear: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/12/Mountain-Mohammed-Mohammed-Mountain-Please-Talk
# [19:46] <rubys> Looks like I
# [19:46] <rubys> 've pissed of Matt May.
# [19:47] <annevk5> that blog entry was not clear on whether answers to ARIA LC comments would be discussed on the call
# [19:47] * Lachy notes that the sky is blue due to refraction of light
# [19:47] <annevk5> in any case, it seems absurd that they can be discussed there, but that we cannot get a reply to our emails for another couple of months
# [19:48] <Dashiva> Well, as long as PF's ASAP is as fast as it is, it doesn't seem like dialog can happen any faster than it currently is
# [19:51] <rubys> FWIW, Richard and I not only work for the same company (so I can catch him via internal IM), we are in the same department.
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# [20:00] <rubys> In case is still isn't clear: Ian's ARIA LC comments will be discussed on tomorrow's call.
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# [20:08] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/12/Mountain-Mohammed-Mohammed-Mountain-Please-Talk#c1250100182
# [20:14] <othermaciej> rubys: if the PFWG folks are willing to give a sneak preview of their answers on the phone, I can tell them to high degree of certainty if Hixie will find their answer acceptable
# [20:14] <rubys> excellent.
# [20:15] <othermaciej> rubys: I can also help clarify Hixie's request if needed, because based on things I've heard, I believe they may be confused between implementation requirements and authoring conformance requirements
# [20:15] <othermaciej> "they" meaning the people trying to come up with an answer
# [20:15] <rubys> A summary of what I understand to be the answer to the key issue: "Other than the role attribute, the host language takes precedence".
# [20:16] <othermaciej> whose key issue is that?
# [20:16] <rubys> based on your answer, it is clear that I don't understand Ian's issue.
# [20:17] <othermaciej> Hixie's key issue is simply that he'd like to make "nonsensical" combinations of native markup and ARIA nonconforming
# [20:17] <othermaciej> it's fine to let ARIA take precedence in behavior if someone actually does it
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# [20:17] <othermaciej> but ARIA apparently doesn't let host languages make any ARIA markup nonconforming
# [20:18] <othermaciej> the idea being that if you tell ARIA that your radio button is a checkbox, you probably did something wrong
# [20:18] <rubys> my understanding is that in the case on nonsensical combinations, non comforming is not only OK, it is preferred; furthermore, the host language takes precedence in everything but role.
# [20:19] <othermaciej> maybe I should talk to Hixie and make sure *I* understand his issues
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# [20:20] <othermaciej> wait, are you stating what you think Hixie's position is, or what you think ARIA currently says?
# [20:20] <rubys> even better, convince him to attend this one meeting. I'm willing to clear the calendar of other items if that is what it takes.
# [20:20] <rubys> I am stating what I believe the next draft of ARIA will state.
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# [20:21] <othermaciej> I think convincing Hixie to attend a telecon is beyond my powers
# [20:22] <rubys> See my latest comment on my latest blog post.
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# [20:23] <rubys> It is a damn shame when principles stand in the way of progress.
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# [20:33] <Lachy> rubys, am I correct in understanding that it would be inappropriate for Shelly to formatlly object to canvas being in HTML5 due to our previous vote on the issue in which the group formally decided to include it?
# [20:33] <Lachy> or is it possible for such a formal objection to actually hold up progress?
# [20:34] <rubys> Did you see Dan's response? (by the way Cynthia Shelly isn't talking about an objection, Shell***E***y Powers is)
# [20:35] <rubys> I do believe that the course of action that Shelley described would be treated as out-of-order
# [20:35] <Lachy> rubys, I know. I didn't mention Cynthia
# [20:36] <rubys> no, but you misspelled shelley
# [20:36] <Lachy> oh
# [20:36] <Lachy> sorry. I didn't realise you'd associated my typo with Cynthia's last name
# [20:37] <rubys> oh, joy, matt responded again to my post
# [20:38] <Lachy> I'm not sure which response from Dan you're talking about though. He hasn't responded to this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0604.html (nor the one before that in that thread)
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# [20:59] <rubys> Lachy: I was talking about DanC's response before that point. I do believe that objecting to canvas is out of order, and I do believe that the last call date is in jeopardy -- the latter mostly because the right people aren't volunteering to help.
# [21:00] <rubys> Does anybody know of a javascript implementation of the HTML5 progress element that can be used on legacy browsers?
# [21:02] * Philip` doesn't remember having heard of one
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# [21:08] <annevk5> rubys, what parts need helping with in your opinion?
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# [21:11] <rubys> Whatever parts won't be ready until December. :-)
# [21:11] <rubys> I don't have insight into a more granular breakdown of the tasks.
# [21:11] <rubys> I take it that DaveSinger and RichardS do.
# [21:12] <annevk5> so given those names you think the issues are primarily with accessibility and maybe video codecs?
# [21:13] <annevk5> given your statement "the latter mostly because the right people aren't volunteering to help" I was asking the above question, fwiw
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# [21:23] <rubys> just to make sure that we are talking about the same issue, two links: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0611.html and I should have said RichardS and Maciej
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# [22:06] <othermaciej> Lachy: I believe it would be out of order to reopen the decision, but it's not out of order to make a Formal Objection to a decision before her time
# [22:06] <Lachy> I'm surprised that this wordpress exploit is even possible http://lists.grok.org.uk/pipermail/full-disclosure/2009-August/070137.html
# [22:07] <Lachy> I just upgraded the whatwg blog and my own blog to the new patched version.
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# [22:21] <othermaciej> rubys: I don't know of a JS progress implementation, but studying the element it looks like it is probably doable with script to a rough approximation
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The end :)