/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  19. # [01:38] <Lachy> Now that we have the ability to generate a copy of the spec with static annotations, I wonder what it would take to combine that with the dynamic annotations in the WHATWG copy so that the script only needs to check for changes in the annotations since the last commit
  20. # [01:38] <Lachy> that would significantly reduce load time on the spec
  21. # [01:38] <Hixie> it would actually increase load time for the spec itself
  22. # [01:38] <Lachy> the bottle neck is the javascript performance, not the download time
  23. # [01:39] <Hixie> on another note, maybe we should have people pass a test to prove that they have read the html5 spec before they're allowed to propose text- or process- level changes to the spec or wg.
  24. # [01:39] <Hixie> Lachy: in your browser maybe :-)
  25. # [01:39] <Hixie> Lachy: in safari, the JS runs nice and fast
  26. # [01:40] <Hixie> crap i marked the last checkin editorial but it affected html5 parser implementations
  27. # [01:40] <Lachy> I don't like using safari for reading the spec because it lacks essential features I need for reading it efficiently
  28. # [01:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: that would seriously cut down on the number of proposals, if enforced
  29. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Hixie: What kind of test, given that people are unlikely to retain even a small part of the whole spec?
  30. # [01:41] <Hixie> Dashiva: open book
  31. # [01:42] <Hixie> Lachy: like what?
  32. # [01:42] * Hixie wonders what he's missing!
  33. # [01:42] <Dashiva> So more like a "Read these sections" in practice then :)
  34. # [01:42] <Lachy> like Find As You Type
  35. # [01:42] <Lachy> without having to press cmd+F or '/' to start searching
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  37. # [01:43] <Hixie> Dashiva: no, there are plenty of questions that require a clear understanding of many partso of the spec to answer.
  38. # [01:44] <Lachy> only Firefox has that feature. My repeated attempts to convince people that we need it Opera have failed :-(
  39. # [01:45] <Lachy> and Safari's find feature has an unacceptable delay
  40. # [01:46] <Dashiva> Lachy: putting a finger on a single key is too much?
  41. # [01:47] <Dashiva> I find it more than acceptable in return for being able to have single key shortcuts
  42. # [01:47] <Lachy> Dashiva, I hate single key shortcuts, and yes, being forced to press a single key I never remember to press is annoying
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  45. # [01:53] <Lachy> Hixie, if I find some time this weekend, I'll see if I can take a look at the annotations script and merge it with the static version
  46. # [01:53] <Hixie> cool
  47. # [01:55] <Lachy> Hixie, how does status.cgi work? Is it backed by a database or static files?
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  49. # [01:56] <Hixie> backed by mysql
  50. # [01:56] <Lachy> would it be possible to get a copy of that database, status.cgi and any other files used for the annotations?
  51. # [01:58] <Lachy> last time I tried to do anything with the annotations script, my attempts failed because I couldn't substitue status.cgi with static files and so the script wouldn't run properly
  52. # [02:00] <Lachy> oh, maybe I don't need to. I can just set up a local server side script that passes off all requests for status.cgi to your copy, thus bypassing the cross-origin restrictions
  53. # [02:01] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/temp/status.tar.gz
  54. # [02:02] <Lachy> thanks
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  57. # [02:13] <Hixie> can anyone remember why we block manifests to only contain URLs with the same scheme?
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  110. # [08:41] <othermaciej> sorry about all the public-html spam
  111. # [08:42] <othermaciej> I was just following orders
  112. # [08:43] <annevk42> I was just about to say
  113. # [08:43] <annevk42> you dominate my inbox
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  119. # [08:57] <Hixie> i like how manu decided that microdata -- which was introduced 3 months ago -- was controversial under his 4 month rule
  120. # [08:57] <Hixie> but let it not be suggested that he's just doing this because he wants to bring attention to rdfa!
  121. # [08:57] <othermaciej> annevk42: DanC and rubys very specifically asked me to send a fresh email per issue
  122. # [08:57] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's why I asked him for citatations...
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  124. # [08:58] <othermaciej> I like how he didn't want to change his draft in the middle of the poll until it started looking like he was going to lose
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  164. # [12:46] <hsivonen> <object> loading code look "fun"
  165. # [12:46] <hsivonen> *looks
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  175. # [14:16] <annevk42> feedback so far on charsets
  176. # [14:18] <annevk42> giving Windows-31J a Windows-932 alias can be done, giving encodings an alias that starts with "x-" cannot be done and registering treating things such as ISO-8859-1 -> windows-1252 is considered unwise
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  181. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk42: why unwise?
  182. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk42: I can understand the x- stuff on the level of principle but not on the level of usefulness
  183. # [14:27] <annevk42> not sure, I asked some follow-up questions
  184. # [14:27] <annevk42> this is the feedback in email form: http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg01833.html
  185. # [14:28] <hsivonen> are people document.writing their flash objects in order to get around some Eolas-non-infringement silliness in IE?
  186. # [14:28] <hsivonen> or do people just love to document.write stuff?
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  188. # [14:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Most offline applications do treat ISO-8859-1 as ISO-8859-1
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  190. # [14:30] * hsivonen mumbles about *Internet* Assigned Name Authority vs. "offline"
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  192. # [14:31] <Lachy_> hsivonen, yeah, the Eolas patent is a large part of the reason, and even though Microsoft have, I think, since entered into a licencing agreement, that problem doesn't exists as much. However, Opera still suffers from the issue cause we don't pay the licencing fees
  193. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Lachy_: Opera has code for working around Eolas?
  194. # [14:33] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: I can see how it would suck if Java or Python APIs magically changed their meaning of ISO-8859-1 suddenly
  195. # [14:33] <hsivonen> it would still be good to have a Web-aware new decoder getter
  196. # [14:33] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Surely that's the inevitable result of getting them defined as aliases, though?
  197. # [14:33] <Lachy_> hsivonen, AIUI, we implement the same document.write workaround that IE did
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  199. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Lachy_: I see. That's news to me.
  200. # [14:34] <Lachy_> but for flash embeded without document.write, we still require the click to activate nonsense
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  205. # [14:40] * Joins: riven` (n=colin@53525B67.cable.casema.nl)
  206. # [14:47] * Quits: Super-Dot_ (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-95-195.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) ("Colloquy more like Coolloquy")
  207. # [14:48] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-95-195.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  208. # [14:48] * Quits: foolip (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  209. # [14:51] <krijnh> Missing logs for 11th and 12th fixed, thanks Lachy_
  210. # [14:52] <hsivonen> oh noes! all the secret cabal talk leaked. :-)
  211. # [14:52] <hsivonen> krijnh: thanks!
  212. # [14:52] <krijnh> Indeed :)
  213. # [14:52] <krijnh> I've only stripped some quit/join messages
  214. # [14:54] <Lachy_> krijnh, there may still be some missing. I think there were a few hours during which I wasn't connected
  215. # [14:54] <Philip`> Did you strip the bit where you admitted you were going to strip some secret discussions and then strip your admission and then deny all knowledge of it?
  216. # [14:54] <krijnh> Yeah
  217. # [14:54] <krijnh> But who cares
  218. # [14:54] <Lachy_> so if someone wants to fill in those hours between around midnight and 08:00, give or take a few hours, feel free to do so
  219. # [14:54] <krijnh> Philip`: I already said that two minutes ago, see the logs
  220. # [14:54] <krijnh> :)
  221. # [14:55] <krijnh> And in the meantime, don't flag any lines
  222. # [14:55] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@static-71-127-149-10.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  223. # [14:57] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  224. # [14:59] <beowulf> krijnh: i have logs if you need them
  225. # [15:00] <krijnh> I don't need them, do you think others do?
  226. # [15:01] <beowulf> iurro
  227. # [15:03] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@207.192.197.231) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  228. # [15:04] <krijnh> "<rubys2> I miss krijnhoetmer.nl" - a new one for the subtitles, yay
  229. # [15:05] <krijnh> Btw, the computer I'm logging from is stable, it's just that power inage isn't
  230. # [15:06] <Lachy_> krijnh, you need a UPS
  231. # [15:06] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  232. # [15:06] <krijnh> Nah
  233. # [15:06] <krijnh> I like being missed :>
  234. # [15:07] * Joins: miketaylr (n=mtaylor@38.117.156.163)
  235. # [15:07] * gsnedders|work hugs krijnh
  236. # [15:07] <krijnh> Also, when a bus drives by, sometimes the LAN cable (with only 4 wires, because the other 4 are used for phones) becomes unstable
  237. # [15:07] <krijnh> I don't think a UPS would solve that
  238. # [15:08] <krijnh> I you thought Dean Edwards hosting his stuff from his kitchen was weird, you should come take a look at my configuration :)
  239. # [15:08] <krijnh> *If
  240. # [15:09] <krijnh> And thanks for the hugs gsnedders|work!
  241. # [15:10] <annevk42> encodings are such a mess
  242. # [15:10] <Philip`> krijnh: You should build yourself a datacenter
  243. # [15:10] <jgraham> krijnh: Perhaps if your configuration is that weird you should post photos of it on slashdot
  244. # [15:10] <Lachy> we should find a more stable server to run IRC logging on
  245. # [15:11] <Lachy> I may have a server available, I just need to check the provider's policy about running IRC
  246. # [15:11] <jgraham> We should run logs on multiple independent machines and then have a cople of servers that pull logs from each logging node, merge the logs, and publish them
  247. # [15:11] * Philip` logs IRC on a (fairly) stable server, but has no way of viewing the logs other than cat
  248. # [15:11] <jgraham> Redundancy is they key on such mission-crtitical applications
  249. # [15:11] <krijnh> jgraham: it's already producing smoke when Sam posts some links to it from his site :)
  250. # [15:11] <Philip`> krijnh: Sounds like you need caching :-)
  251. # [15:12] <jgraham> krijnh: Oh the /. suggestion was just to increase your downtime and/or set fire to your house
  252. # [15:12] <krijnh> That's three times 'you need' I don't really agree with :)
  253. # [15:13] <krijnh> Let's just not make HTML 5 a failure, so people don't need the logs anymore in a few years, okay?
  254. # [15:13] <Lachy> krijnh, you really need things you don't agree with
  255. # [15:13] <Philip`> krijnh: Also, you need to transfer the entire contents of your bank account to me
  256. # [15:14] <krijnh> (I think I once started making a backup on http://krijn.html5.org/irc-logs/)
  257. # [15:14] <jgraham> krijnh: I suggest you get a bank with a large overdraft, remove all the money to the overdraft limit as cash and then transfer the remaining debt to Philip`
  258. # [15:17] <Philip`> I'm afraid that's missing the point :-(
  259. # [15:20] <Lachy> looks like I can run a persistent process on my server, like IRC. I just need to find out what software to use to do it
  260. # [15:20] <Philip`> irssi!
  261. # [15:20] <Lachy> krijnh, could I get a copy of your logging software, so I can set up a mirror?
  262. # [15:20] <annevk42> hmm, krijnh is just hosting his IRC logs
  263. # [15:21] <Lachy> annevk42, yeah, but he has some nice scripts that format it as HTML that I don't want to rewrite if I don't have to
  264. # [15:21] <krijnh> Lachy: the logging software is just mIRC
  265. # [15:22] <krijnh> You don't want to receive my crappy scripts either :)
  266. # [15:22] <krijnh> Or put differently, I don't want to share my crappy scripts with the outside world, cause then nobody will ever take me serious anymore
  267. # [15:23] <krijnh> Self-handicapping ftw
  268. # [15:23] <Lachy> fine. I will have to find or write my own alternative.
  269. # [15:23] <Lachy> for now, I will try to figure out how I can install irissi on my server
  270. # [15:23] <Philip`> "apt-get install irssi"
  271. # [15:23] <Philip`> then run it in screen
  272. # [15:24] <Philip`> then configure it a tiny bit
  273. # [15:24] <Lachy> I have no experience using screen. How does that work?
  274. # [15:24] <Lachy> the apt-get command is not available
  275. # [15:25] <Philip`> Substitute the appropriate package manager for your Linux distro
  276. # [15:25] <krijnh> But I plan on rewriting some stuff
  277. # [15:25] <krijnh> And using Bens suggestions for styling as well
  278. # [15:25] <Philip`> You type "screen", and it runs a shell, and you run stuff in there; then you can press ctrl+A D to detach the screen, and "screen -r" to reattach to it later (possibly from a totally new ssh session or whatever)
  279. # [15:26] <hsivonen> you'll want to add -U to those to force UTF-8 sanity
  280. # [15:27] <hsivonen> unless your copy of screen is configured to be sane-by-default
  281. # [15:27] <Lachy> Philip`, I have no idea what linux distro is being used
  282. # [15:28] <Philip`> It seems to work for me without -U, with some combination of LANG=something.UTF-8 (both outside and inside screen) and suitable irssi configuration
  283. # [15:28] <Philip`> Lachy: Try 'cat /etc/lsb-release' perhaps
  284. # [15:28] <Lachy> # screen
  285. # [15:28] <Lachy> Cannot access '/dev/pts/1': No such file or directory
  286. # [15:29] <Lachy> # cat /etc/lsb-release
  287. # [15:29] <Lachy> cat: /etc/lsb-release: No such file or directory
  288. # [15:29] <beowulf> Lachy: if you are on dreamhost it's debian and there's a pre built irssi on the web somewhere
  289. # [15:29] <Philip`> Do you have root access to the server, or is it a silly share hosting thing?
  290. # [15:29] <Lachy> beowulf, no, this is asmallorange.com
  291. # [15:29] <Philip`> *shared
  292. # [15:29] <Lachy> it's a shared hosting thing
  293. # [15:29] <Lachy> so i might be out of luck
  294. # [15:29] <Philip`> Oh, package managers won't work then
  295. # [15:29] <Philip`> and you'd have to install stuff manually
  296. # [15:29] <Philip`> Does 'gcc' exist on there?
  297. # [15:30] <krijnh> Why can't mIRC just log to a remote server :/
  298. # [15:30] <krijnh> That would solve a lot
  299. # [15:30] <Philip`> krijnh: I guess it can, if you set it to use a network drive
  300. # [15:31] <krijnh> True
  301. # [15:31] <Philip`> (which could be attached to Samba on a real OS)
  302. # [15:31] <krijnh> :)
  303. # [15:33] <Philip`> If someone has scripts to display IRC logs, I could probably run them on my server
  304. # [15:34] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  305. # [15:34] <Lachy> gcc is there
  306. # [15:34] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-cblvpqptqnluykjk)
  307. # [15:34] <Philip`> Ah, so it's not totally hopeless
  308. # [15:35] <Philip`> If irssi isn't already installed you could probably just do ./configure && make to set it up without much pain
  309. # [15:35] <jgraham> You can install stuff like that on Dreamhost. At least I managed to build python
  310. # [15:35] <Philip`> You might be a bit stuck if screen doesn't work because it can't access the /dev stuff, though
  311. # [15:36] <gsnedders|work> Dreamhost TOC forbid IRC clients/bots
  312. # [15:36] <Lachy> that's why I'm not trying this on dreamhsot
  313. # [15:36] <beowulf> they are frowned upon, not forbidden, afaik
  314. # [15:36] <Lachy> but anyway, I wonder what it would cost to get a non-shared server for running all of my stuff on
  315. # [15:36] <gsnedders|work> beowulf: When I looked it up, it was forbidden. This was, however, around a year ago, though
  316. # [15:36] <beowulf> the irssi process gets killed every now and then
  317. # [15:37] <Lachy> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/KB_/_Unix_/_Cron_Jobs_and_Persistent_Processes#What_is_your_persistent_.28background.29_process_policy.3F
  318. # [15:37] * jgraham could in principle run it but isn't actually going to
  319. # [15:37] <Lachy> "IRC-related persistent processes of any kind (including, but not limited to, bots, bouncers, etc.) are STRICTLY PROHIBITED, and are in violation of our TOS. "
  320. # [15:37] <hsivonen> not such a Dream after all :-(
  321. # [15:38] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-95-195.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  322. # [15:38] <beowulf> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Irssi
  323. # [15:39] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: non-shared meaning dedicated? Or do you just mean VPS?
  324. # [15:39] <Lachy> gsnedders|work, not sure. Whatever will let me run anything I like without restriction
  325. # [15:39] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: http://www.cheapvps.co.uk/plans has unmanaged VPS from £5.00/month and is apparently good
  326. # [15:41] <gsnedders|work> http://www.intovps.com/ is apparently good too
  327. # [15:41] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  328. # [15:41] <gsnedders|work> http://slicehost.com is meant to be very good, but twice as much (i.e., $20/month)
  329. # [15:42] <hsivonen> what's the deal with http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/namespaces-algorithms.html#lookupNamespaceURIAlgo not special casing "xml"?
  330. # [15:43] * Joins: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com)
  331. # [15:43] <Lachy> $120/year isn't too bad. Not sure if it's worth it though, as I would currently only need it for running an IRC logger, which isn't essential
  332. # [15:43] <gsnedders|work> I'll probably be getting an account on the 5GBP/10USD (the 5GBP being cheaper…) VPS in Sept.
  333. # [15:44] <krijnh> There's not really a problem with how it's currently done, right?
  334. # [15:44] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  335. # [15:44] <Lachy> krijnh, just the stability problem
  336. # [15:44] <krijnh> (Apart from my sarcasm wrt smoking computers)
  337. # [15:44] <gsnedders|work> krijnh: Apart from it going down half the time :P
  338. # [15:44] <Philip`> I think 128MB RAM isn't really enough if you want to run Apache and MySQL or anything like that
  339. # [15:45] * gsnedders|work points out nobody ever visits his blog
  340. # [15:45] * jgraham notes that WebFaction isn't a VPS but does seem to be pretty good
  341. # [15:45] <krijnh> A PII 450 mhz with 512MB is :)
  342. # [15:45] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Processes take up RAM even with no visitors :-)
  343. # [15:46] * hsivonen wonders if the lack of 'xml' and 'xmlns' special casing in the above algorithm is an error or by design
  344. # [15:46] <Philip`> and then one person loads your site and you get six Apache processes starting up
  345. # [15:46] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: I don't need many workers waiting, though :)
  346. # [15:46] <Philip`> if there's lots of stuff downloading in parallel
  347. # [15:46] <hsivonen> in other news, I'm in the Namespace drudgery land again
  348. # [15:46] <hsivonen> RDF Tax FTW!
  349. # [15:46] <gsnedders|work> w00t! namespaces!
  350. # [15:47] * gsnedders|work still doesn't get how the tax is specific to RDF and not all XML with Namespaces
  351. # [15:47] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: ~10MB times not many is still a lot if you've only got 128MB in total (including for all the rest of the OS) :-p
  352. # [15:47] <Lachy> hsivonen, care to elaborate?
  353. # [15:47] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: XML has Namespace because of RDF
  354. # [15:48] <Lachy> really?
  355. # [15:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: lookupNamespaceURI in Gecko trunk doesn't have interop with WebKit when applied to HTML DOMs
  356. # [15:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  357. # [15:49] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: If there's a will there's a way :P
  358. # [15:49] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: Demonstrably false
  359. # [15:49] <Lachy> so the designers of namespaces had RDF in mind as they were creating it, and not just the idea of creating multiple vocabularies that don't conflict?
  360. # [15:49] <gsnedders|work> jgraham: sssh
  361. # [15:50] * Philip` uses http://www.gandi.net/hosting/ which seems about the same price as CheapVPS for 256MB RAM (~£12/month incl VAT)
  362. # [15:50] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: And who visits your site? :P
  363. # [15:50] <gsnedders|work> (Apart from that on Anne's hosting!)
  364. # [15:51] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: It's had 1.2TB of traffic in the past month :-p
  365. # [15:51] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2007Dec/0116.html
  366. # [15:51] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Dude, how much pr0n is that? :P
  367. # [15:52] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: sssh
  368. # [15:52] <Philip`> (Actually it's mostly SVN)
  369. # [15:52] <gsnedders|work> Binary files in SVN!? :\
  370. # [15:52] <Philip`> Yes
  371. # [15:53] <gsnedders|work> Also: SVN!? :\
  372. # [15:53] <Philip`> The repository is about 6GB, I think
  373. # [15:53] <Philip`> which really wouldn't work with DVCSes
  374. # [15:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Why?
  375. # [15:57] <Philip`> jgraham: Why what?
  376. # [15:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Why wouldn't having a 6Gb repo work with DVCS?
  377. # [15:58] <Philip`> jgraham: Because everyone who wants to check it out would have to download the 6GB repository, instead of the ~300MB subtree revision that they're usually interested in
  378. # [15:59] <jgraham> Philip`: http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/SubprojectSupport
  379. # [15:59] <jgraham> Sounds like it solves that problem
  380. # [16:00] <jgraham> Unless I misunderstood the problem
  381. # [16:00] <gsnedders|work> Why have everything in one repo is nobody cares about parts of it normally?
  382. # [16:01] <annevk42> hsivonen, RDF has brought us a great many wonderful thing
  383. # [16:01] <annevk42> s
  384. # [16:01] <jgraham> (I assume the problem is roughly "there is a whole load of artwork which people don't need to check out often and source code that they do")
  385. # [16:02] <Philip`> "This implementation has not been completed due to these problems. A newer implementation is in the works ..." - doesn't sound like the problem is actually solved
  386. # [16:03] <jgraham> Oh well I heard that Git had soloved these problems. Maybe the new thing is fixed
  387. # [16:03] <Philip`> (and it certainly wasn't solved several years ago when we started using SVN)
  388. # [16:03] <Philip`> (and migration would be a pain, even if it the new system was better)
  389. # [16:04] <Philip`> jgraham: It's approximately that problem, although there's some artwork which people do check out (in order to run the game) and lot more which they don't (which is mostly source material for artists, and isn't publicly visible at all because its copyright status is often questionable)
  390. # [16:06] * gsnedders|work wonders what game
  391. # [16:06] <Philip`> Also there's lots of versions of precompiled executables in SVN, which is fine in SVN because everyone just downloads the latest revision and it's got everything they need to run the game, and we wouldn't want to use a DVCS where everyone has to download all historic revisions of those files too
  392. # [16:07] <Philip`> (and if we don't include the executables in the VCS then it's more of a pain for anyone who wants to run it)
  393. # [16:07] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: http://os.wildfiregames.com/
  394. # [16:08] <annevk42> next suggestion from the encoding front: do your own registry
  395. # [16:08] <annevk42> I kind of like that solution to be honest
  396. # [16:09] <annevk42> that way we can just specify what is required for "web encodings" lock it down and be done with it
  397. # [16:09] <gsnedders|work> Philip`: Is it fun?
  398. # [16:12] <Philip`> gsnedders|work: Not as a game to actually play, because it's nowhere near finished
  399. # [16:21] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  402. # [16:25] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com)
  403. # [16:25] <annevk42> http://www.rockmelt.com/ -- lots of talk, no walk?
  404. # [16:26] <hsivonen> annevk42: what is it about?
  405. # [16:26] <hsivonen> I don't even noticed any talk :-)
  406. # [16:26] <annevk42> supposedly some new browser backed by Andreessen
  407. # [16:27] * Joins: archtech (n=sv@83.228.56.37)
  408. # [16:27] <hsivonen> which engine?
  409. # [16:27] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  410. # [16:27] <jgraham> It may or may not have some social networking features like facebook integration
  411. # [16:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: wasn't Flock supposed to be that browser?
  412. # [16:28] * jgraham bets on a WebKit backed browser with similar ideas to flock but more usable
  413. # [16:28] <jgraham> AFAICT Flock is a usability disaster
  414. # [16:30] <hsivonen> hmm. so if a telecon isn't recorded, WCAG doesn't require it to be accessible, but if it is recorded, WCAG requires the recording to be accessible
  415. # [16:30] <hsivonen> did I understand WCAG right?
  416. # [16:30] <hsivonen> WCAG 2 that is
  417. # [16:31] * jgraham assumes that the minutes would count as an accessible version albeit with some information loss
  418. # [16:31] <hsivonen> the entire premise here is that the minutes aren't really equivalent to the audio data
  419. # [16:32] <annevk42> hsivonen, could be true, I believe it's also that if you publish a video rather than keep it to yourself it needs to be accessible
  420. # [16:32] <jgraham> In any case I am stunned that Laura thinks the situation shouldn't be improved for some people if it can't be improved for anyone
  421. # [16:32] <annevk42> hsivonen, see also the Flickr debate
  422. # [16:32] <jgraham> s/everyone/anyone/
  423. # [16:32] <annevk42> jgraham, she hasn't said that
  424. # [16:32] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@host-77-236-204-8.blue4.cz)
  425. # [16:33] <jgraham> annevk42: Well true. But she did bring it up as a "social/policy question"
  426. # [16:34] <jgraham> Which kind of implies that she wouldn't see audio+minutes as an improvement over minutes alone
  427. # [16:45] <hsivonen> does Opera implement lookupNamespaceURI per spec?
  428. # [16:48] <hsivonen> I just realized that the spec design badness sicking mentioned in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=505178#c10 is yet another reason why the DOM specs make dynamic CURIE-using content suck even more than one would expect
  429. # [16:55] <gsnedders|work> Hixie: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/text/white-space/normal/003.html — learn to spell normal in the CSS!
  430. # [16:58] <hsivonen> aaargh. there's document.createNSResolver
  431. # [16:58] <hsivonen> grr.
  432. # [16:59] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  433. # [17:03] <hsivonen> whew. maybe createNSResolver isn't as crazy as I thought
  434. # [17:06] <Lachy> if we have audio recordings, then in theory, someone could take the time revise the minutes to be more accurate than they are when they're done live
  435. # [17:07] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  436. # [17:08] <annevk42> yup
  437. # [17:11] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  438. # [17:11] * Quits: paulgendek (n=paulgend@240.182.205.68.cfl.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  440. # [17:17] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-241-171.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  441. # [17:17] <annevk42> http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg01781.html is interesting
  442. # [17:17] <annevk42> maybe we should just standardize the IE mapping
  443. # [17:18] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  451. # [17:58] <annevk42> hmm, old guard doesn't want recordings :/
  452. # [18:00] <jgraham> It seems to me that a big advantage of recordings is that it allows you to check how something was presented in a telecon e.g. you can see if things were (accidentially) misrepresented
  453. # [18:01] <jgraham> Not to mention that it expands the scope of people to whom explainations are avaliable
  454. # [18:01] <Lachy> jgraham, I agree. The current system relies on people reviewing the minutes for themselves to see if what they said was accurately represented
  455. # [18:02] <jgraham> Since rubys seems to be suggesting that he plans to use telecons for more liason work in the future
  456. # [18:02] <jgraham> Lachy: In general the minutes are horrible to read. I often try to follow along on IRC a bit but generally it is impossible to pick up the substance of what anyone is saying
  457. # [18:03] <Lachy> I know
  458. # [18:03] <annevk42> yeah, DanC says they're not too important since it's only for people who want it while rubys seems to be pushing more people to attend
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  479. # [20:08] <aboodman> Hixie: want to clarify something about workers and cross-origin requests: As I read the current spec, the behavior is simple: workers can only be created from same-origin resources, importScript() allows cross origin resources.
  480. # [20:08] <aboodman> is that correect?
  481. # [20:08] <aboodman> (I got confused by some older messages I saw on the list that indicated it was more subtle)
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  485. # [20:15] <dave_levin> aboodman: Yep. importscript is support to be like <script> iirc
  486. # [20:18] <hober> hmm, html4all.org's dns registration expired
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  488. # [20:22] <dave_levin> aboodman: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020355.html
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  490. # [20:23] <aboodman_mac> dave_levin: can you state whether you think that matches my parsing of it above?
  491. # [20:23] <aboodman_mac> all the talk about redirects is freaking me out. but this does basically say that you can only create workers from same-origin resources, right?
  492. # [20:23] <dave_levin> aboodman_mac: Yes.
  493. # [20:24] <aboodman_mac> Ok. I don't think we have test coverage for this in webkit.
  494. # [20:24] <aboodman_mac> i will make a patch.
  495. # [20:24] <dave_levin> aboodman_mac: Possibly not.
  496. # [20:24] <dave_levin> aboodman_mac: thx.
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  506. # [21:10] <mpilgrim> annevk42: the fact that an accessibility "expert" refuses to discuss accessibility in an accessible medium is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT
  507. # [21:11] <mpilgrim> (c.f. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0747.html )
  508. # [21:11] * gsnedders facepalms
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  510. # [21:18] * Philip` wonders if any HTML WG members would actually require transcriptions of audio
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  512. # [21:19] <mpilgrim> at the risk of agreeing with john foliot, that's really beside the point
  513. # [21:19] <mpilgrim> even if we ignore deaf people, there are hearing impaired and hard of hearing people who could have trouble keeping up with a live telephone conversation
  514. # [21:20] <mpilgrim> even if we ignore those people, there are people whose shaky command of the english language would preclude them from keeping up with a live telephone conversation
  515. # [21:20] <mpilgrim> even if we ignore those people, there are people who would be asleep during the live telephone conversation, regardless of when it was held
  516. # [21:21] <Philip`> I thought the issue was audio recordings, which aren't live
  517. # [21:21] <mpilgrim> even if we ignore those people, there are people who were sick yesterday (cough me cough) and were in no condition to attend a live telephone conversation
  518. # [21:22] <Philip`> (Transcriptions would certainly be more useful regardless of accessibility, because you can skim-read and copy-and-paste etc)
  519. # [21:22] <mpilgrim> even if we ignore those people, there are people who would like to be able to read, search, copy-and-paste, and generally interact with written text
  520. # [21:22] <mpilgrim> jinx
  521. # [21:24] <mpilgrim> anyway, it boggles my mind that the w3c charges companies a million dollars a year to participate, insists on weekly teleconferences, puts people in leadership positions who use their position to harass people into attending those teleconferences, then says they don't have the money to transcribe the teleconference
  522. # [21:24] <Dashiva> Surely you aren't claiming the w3c is inaccessible?
  523. # [21:25] <mpilgrim> as far as i know, the WHATWG has never held a teleconference
  524. # [21:25] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  525. # [21:25] <Dashiva> Sorry, forgot my </sarcasm>
  526. # [21:25] <mpilgrim> never insisted that people attend a teleconference
  527. # [21:25] <annevk42> it boggles my mind that not publishing recordings is ok, but publishing them but not publishing an additional transcript that was not part of the conversation in the first place would not be acceptable
  528. # [21:25] <mpilgrim> yes, i was getting to that part too
  529. # [21:26] <Dashiva> There's no lobby for people who don't attend telcons
  530. # [21:26] <mpilgrim> apparently, the w3c has a policy -- and we all know how much work goes into their policies -- that inaccessible mediums are fine as long as you don't share them
  531. # [21:27] <mpilgrim> and john foliot takes this opportunity to... blame anne!
  532. # [21:27] <mpilgrim> so awesome
  533. # [21:27] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  534. # [21:28] <annevk42> I asked for clarification just in case I misunderstood
  535. # [21:28] <Dashiva> Does anyone know when JF went from against wcag2 to being for it?
  536. # [21:28] <mpilgrim> no, you understood perfectly
  537. # [21:29] <annevk42> I was afraid of that
  538. # [21:29] <mpilgrim> dashiva: as soon as he decided that hixie was against it (which he's not, but that's irrelevant)
  539. # [21:29] <annevk42> Dashiva, somewhere between the ALA article and now? :)
  540. # [21:30] <mpilgrim> meanwhile, i would STILL like to know what Richard Schwerdtfeger and maciej talked about
  541. # [21:31] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("inbound")
  542. # [21:33] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: Actually, the only reason they were talking was so maciej could proxy for Hixie. It doesn't matter for the rest of us.
  543. # [21:33] <mpilgrim> i'm actually interested in the roles and states module (aka ARIA)
  544. # [21:34] <mpilgrim> i was on richard's team at ibm while he was working on getting it into xhtml2
  545. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> i've written code -- which as far as i know is still being used -- to allow you to use roles and states in text/html (by abusing the class attribute)
  546. # [21:35] <mpilgrim> i even, shocker of shockers, think that much of the roles and states module is a good idea
  547. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> hampered only by the albatross of xhtml2
  548. # [21:36] <annevk42> I just unsubscribed from your twitter account and blog :p
  549. # [21:36] <mpilgrim> which people are finally rectifying
  550. # [21:36] * annevk42 -> food
  551. # [21:38] <Dashiva> I'm curious to see how this will end up being retold
  552. # [21:40] <Dashiva> annevk42: The current telecons aren't in conflit with WCAG because WCAG only applies to the web
  553. # [21:41] <Dashiva> Maybe s/conflict with WCAG/inaccessible/ or somesuch
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  565. # [21:58] <Philip`> When people talk about .tags on HTMLCollections, is that stuff like document.all.tags("blink") or something else?
  566. # [21:59] <Dashiva> It's that
  567. # [22:00] <Dashiva> But it's leaked outside of just document.all
  568. # [22:00] <gsnedders> At least it's not document.body.all
  569. # [22:00] <Philip`> Like fld.children.tags('td')[0].style.borderColor='#FF9966' etc?
  570. # [22:00] <Dashiva> My eyes
  571. # [22:00] <gsnedders> My kingdom for my eyes?
  572. # [22:02] <Philip`> Hmm, most seem to be children.tags or all.tags
  573. # [22:02] <Philip`> (where "most" means "somewhere between most and all (inclusive)")
  574. # [22:03] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  575. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Does .all exist on all HTMLElements in IE?
  576. # [22:06] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.18.83)
  577. # [22:12] * gsnedders wonders why he doesn't get everything to ietf-charsets
  578. # [22:14] * riven` is now known as riven
  579. # [22:17] <annevk42> you mean s/to/on/?
  580. # [22:17] <annevk42> and by that do you mean emails or understanding?
  581. # [22:18] <annevk42> actually, why do I bother, it's Friday and I'm in France, ttyl
  582. # [22:18] <gsnedders> emails
  583. # [22:18] <gsnedders> s/to/sent to/
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  586. # [22:22] <Philip`> Ooh, I found one that's not all or children
  587. # [22:22] <Philip`> www.cartonservice.fr/public_site/info/contact.php?g_contact=2 var coll = document.dmd_cata.tags("input");
  588. # [22:26] <Philip`> Maybe there are more, but this regexp is incredibly slow and I don't have any progress indicators
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  590. # [22:33] * Philip` does it a faster way
  591. # [22:34] <Dashiva> Madness
  592. # [22:34] <Philip`> Ah, there's just that one and
  593. # [22:34] <Philip`> www.mums.ac.ir/erc/fa/cornea2 for (var R = 0; R < document.forms[S].elements.tags("SELECT").length; R++) {
  594. # [22:34] <Philip`> www.mums.ac.ir/erc/fa/cornea2 document.forms[S].elements.tags("SELECT")[R].style.visibility = action;
  595. # [22:34] <Philip`> matching (?<!all|children)\.tags\(
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  601. # [22:53] <Dashiva> Lastweek is so last week
  602. # [22:53] <Dashiva> Or at least earlier this week
  603. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Is there anyway to get the html parser to create an element in no namespace?
  604. # [22:58] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@17.246.17.234)
  605. # [22:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  606. # [22:59] <jgraham> Why would you want that?
  607. # [22:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because html5lib has code for that case
  608. # [22:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: And using a conforming DOM Level 3 Core impl causes the DOM impl to break
  609. # [22:59] <Dashiva> Is it possible to create with any namespace that's no html, svg or mathml?
  610. # [23:00] <Lachy> Dashiva, only via createElementNS()
  611. # [23:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: As it creates element in no namespace using createElement(), and that means localName, prefix, and namespaceURI are None
  612. # [23:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh well html5lib will, eventually, allow you to put html elements in no namespace thater than in the HTML namespace
  613. # [23:00] <jgraham> At the moment it ought to put everything into a namespace
  614. # [23:00] <gsnedders> (I get around 800 failures due to this bug)
  615. # [23:00] <gsnedders> It doesn't.
  616. # [23:01] <Lachy> jgraham, why will it allow you to put html elements in no namespace?
  617. # [23:01] <gsnedders> DOM is badly broken
  618. # [23:02] <jgraham> Lachy: Because for non-browser cases there is really no good reason to pay the namespace tax in the common case
  619. # [23:02] <Lachy> fair enough
  620. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Adding "assert namespace is not None" causes 1800 failures!
  621. # [23:02] <jgraham> Since there is no interoperability concern and namespaces make many otherwise good apis suck
  622. # [23:02] * Quits: miketaylr (n=mtaylor@38.117.156.163)
  623. # [23:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well clearly something is going wrong
  624. # [23:03] <jgraham> I con't really look at it right now though
  625. # [23:03] <jgraham> Fell free too make a patch or keep complaining at me untill I do
  626. # [23:03] * gsnedders is looking at it right now
  627. # [23:04] <gsnedders> token.get("namespace", self.defaultNamespace) returns None
  628. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Ah, the TreeBuilder is being created with namespaceHTMLElements=False
  629. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Because it defaults to not namespacing them
  630. # [23:09] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  631. # [23:11] <gsnedders> We default to breaking the spec. Sounds great. :\
  632. # [23:13] <jgraham> We default to sane behaviour for most python applications
  633. # [23:13] <jgraham> But the default cn be changed if you are really bothered
  634. # [23:16] <hsivonen> can one get transcripts for $1.35 a minute by people who reside in North America and have health insurance?
  635. # [23:19] <Philip`> Do it on Mechanical Turk for $0.01 a minute
  636. # [23:20] * Joins: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-75-61-85-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  637. # [23:21] <Hixie> play it back to a google voice account and have google voice voicemail transcription do it
  638. # [23:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: does Google have voice transription that works and doesn't require per-speaker training?
  639. # [23:22] <Hixie> yes
  640. # [23:23] <hsivonen> awesomeness!
  641. # [23:23] <Hixie> (for some definition of "works", anyway)
  642. # [23:23] <hsivonen> is it available for ed users for dictation?
  643. # [23:23] <hsivonen> *end users
  644. # [23:23] <Hixie> i don't think it's available anywhere other than google voice voicemail transcriptions right now
  645. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: I mind more than anything else because False is currently _really_ broken, and I'd rather we defaulted to following the spec
  646. # [23:23] <hsivonen> :-(
  647. # [23:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you mind if I add a warning for the False case currently, warning that it is broken?
  648. # [23:24] <Hixie> there are people _against_ making the working group more transparent???
  649. # [23:24] <Hixie> what kind of crazy world do we live in here
  650. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Earth
  651. # [23:25] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@rrcs-24-173-70-117.sw.biz.rr.com)
  652. # [23:26] <Dashiva> Hixie: One with lawyers
  653. # [23:26] <Dashiva> Maybe maciej could make a statement on Apple's behalf (even if it's only that he'll have to talk to the lawyers) to defuse it :)
  654. # [23:28] <Lachy> new draft for about: URI scheme will be published soon. http://www.ietf.org/staging/draft-holsten-about-uri-scheme-02.txt
  655. # [23:28] <Lachy> I got mailed about it from the submission tool when joseph submitted it, so I hadn't had a chance to review it beforehand
  656. # [23:29] <Lachy> anyway, he's made a little bit of a mess out of some sections, but hopefully I can get those fixed and have an updated draft soon
  657. # [23:30] <krijnh> Is http://twitpic.com/dw92r the new Opera logo?
  658. # [23:31] <Lachy> krijnh, no
  659. # [23:31] <krijnh> I've never seen it before
  660. # [23:32] <Lachy> at least, I hope not. It looks like whoever made that did some weird stuff with all the logos
  661. # [23:32] * gsnedders wonders if anyone in here knows what the new Opera logo looks like
  662. # [23:32] <krijnh> 50% in here works for Opera, no? :)
  663. # [23:32] <Dashiva> Is there a new Opera logo at all?
  664. # [23:33] <Lachy> Dashiva, no comment
  665. # [23:33] <Dashiva> Exactly
  666. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Yes.
  667. # [23:33] <Lachy> gsnedders, don't spoil the surprise
  668. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: But it's already been announced!
  669. # [23:33] <Lachy> where?
  670. # [23:34] <krijnh> On Hicks' site
  671. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Yeah
  672. # [23:34] <krijnh> And in his Sitepoint interview
  673. # [23:35] <Dashiva> It doesn't exist until it's unveiled
  674. # [23:35] <Dashiva> Rumors, which may be lies
  675. # [23:35] <krijnh> Damnit :)
  676. # [23:35] <gsnedders> krijnh: Just because 50% of people in here are from Opera doesn't mean 100% of people from Opera know :)
  677. # [23:35] <Lachy> krijnh, gsnedders, can you post a link? I can't see it anywhere on his site
  678. # [23:35] <gsnedders> It was on Twitter, IIRC
  679. # [23:36] * gsnedders got asked when he got home from work one day by a friend whether he knew anything about it, and didn't even know about the tweet at the time
  680. # [23:36] <krijnh> http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/and-now-opera
  681. # [23:36] <krijnh> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/08/02/podcast-21-jon-hicks/
  682. # [23:37] <krijnh> "The answer is yes, I have."
  683. # [23:38] <Lachy> Don't quote mine! "And if the next question was have those designs been accepted and are they going to be used, the answer is no."
  684. # [23:39] <krijnh> Who cares, the answer is yes! :)
  685. # [23:39] <Lachy> there have definitely been proposals for a new logo
  686. # [23:39] <Dashiva> Everyone and their dog has redesigned the Opera logo, pssh :P
  687. # [23:39] <krijnh> :D
  688. # [23:39] <Lachy> there's been many, from others even before Hicks joined us
  689. # [23:39] <Dashiva> I mean, I interned there three summers in a row, and it was a discussion topic every time
  690. # [23:40] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lejqwogtjghaobvj)
  691. # [23:40] <Dashiva> "It sucks" "I agree" "Let's talk about it while nothing happens"
  692. # [23:40] <krijnh> Like now :)
  693. # [23:42] <Hixie> the entire thread on the recording of teleconferences is ludicrous
  694. # [23:44] * Quits: matijsb (n=matijs@hotfusion.demon.nl)
  695. # [23:45] <hsivonen> does WebApps actively maintain DOM Level 3 Core errata?
  696. # [23:45] <gsnedders> No
  697. # [23:45] <hsivonen> ok
  698. # Session Close: Sat Aug 15 00:00:01 2009

The end :)