/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:07] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.16.93)
  5. # [00:12] * Philip` tries to work out how to change Google from its silly geolocated Spanish default into English
  6. # [00:12] * Philip` fails, since he doesn't know the Spanish for "English"
  7. # [00:12] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  8. # [00:13] <Philip`> Aha, got it now, by going through Hebrew and Pirate
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  12. # [00:24] <annevk5> Dashiva, took a few minutes to hack this together before going to bed: http://dump.testsuite.org/2009/encoding-matching/runtests.htm
  13. # [00:26] * annevk5 wonders if contentDocument works in IE8
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  15. # [00:29] <JonathanNeal> FAIL
  16. # [00:29] <JonathanNeal> annevk5 doesn't like me.
  17. # [00:29] <Dashiva> annevk5: The iframe is so tiny!
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  19. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Philip: Hahaha. It's "ingles", by the way (there's an accent in there, but irrelevant here).
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  21. # [00:31] <annevk5> Dashiva, the frame is not really relevant
  22. # [00:32] * jgraham wishes you could tell what you failed/passed
  23. # [00:32] <Dashiva> annevk5: You might have to use contentWindow.document
  24. # [00:32] <annevk5> yeah, I thought of adding titles
  25. # [00:33] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Ah, right - I had no chance if it didn't begin with "E"
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  27. # [00:34] <annevk5> now it reports the title and uses contentWindow
  28. # [00:34] <Dashiva> Hmm, or no
  29. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Eh, as long as you can read the alphabet, most languages translate English relatively understandably. It *does* mean you may have to read through a whole list of unknown foreign words, though.
  30. # [00:34] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  31. # [00:34] <Dashiva> That wasn't the problem, it's the onload that doesn't fire
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  33. # [00:35] <annevk5> ok, I'll change some things
  34. # [00:35] <Dashiva> Apparently it doesn't support onload, only attachEvent with load?
  35. # [00:38] <Dashiva> Or you can use the onload attribute
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  37. # [00:39] <annevk5> try it now?
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  39. # [00:41] <annevk5> can't believe this is taking more than 30 minutes
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  41. # [00:42] <Dashiva> Yeah, it's running now
  42. # [00:43] <annevk5> cool
  43. # [00:43] <Dashiva> Could you include a \n in the output? :)
  44. # [00:43] <annevk5> you mean \r then?
  45. # [00:43] <Dashiva> Oh, right. Yeah.
  46. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> God, the /r/n debacle is one of the most nonsensical interop failures ever.
  47. # [00:44] <annevk5> done
  48. # [00:44] <annevk5> can't believe IE still hasn't fixed that
  49. # [00:44] <annevk5> well I can
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  51. # [00:44] <annevk5> it just annoys me
  52. # [00:44] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  53. # [00:45] <Dashiva> WTf... it's still all on one line
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  55. # [00:46] <annevk5> ok, i'll fix that too before I go to sleep
  56. # [00:46] <annevk5> hold on
  57. # [00:46] <Dashiva> They don't appear if I alert document.body.innerHTML either
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  60. # [00:48] <annevk5> reload
  61. # [00:49] <Dashiva> works
  62. # [00:49] <Dashiva> Now it just needs color coding in the list and you're done ;P
  63. # [00:49] <annevk5> mwaha, guess what finger I'm holding up :p
  64. # [00:49] <annevk5> anyway, thanks for the help, much appreciated :)
  65. # [00:50] <Dashiva> 25-27 all fail, by the way
  66. # [00:50] <annevk5> ah interesting
  67. # [00:50] <annevk5> I wonder why the other browsers recognize those aliases
  68. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Oh, there's a bug
  69. # [00:50] <Dashiva> ...
  70. # [00:50] <annevk5> ...
  71. # [00:50] <Dashiva> No, that's just me needing sleep
  72. # [00:50] <annevk5> profit
  73. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> I get a fail on 25 and 27 on FF 3.5.2
  74. # [00:51] <annevk5> me too
  75. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Opera fails 001... wtf
  76. # [00:51] <annevk5> TabAtkins, yeah me too, not entirely unexpected, with the last few I was just playing around
  77. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Plenty of others, too. But just saying that "the other browsers" don't recognize those.
  78. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  79. # [00:51] <annevk5> Dashiva, we don't alias ISO-8859-9 to Windows-1254 yet
  80. # [00:51] <annevk5> filed a bug on it today
  81. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Opera passes 25-27, though. Heh.
  82. # [00:52] <annevk5> Firefox doesn't do that either, hence it failing tests
  83. # [00:52] <annevk5> if it did that it would pass mosts
  84. # [00:53] <annevk5> anyway, nn
  85. # [00:53] <Dashiva> nn
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  88. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> nn = nighty night, right?
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  90. # [00:55] <Dashiva> never normalize
  91. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Ah, makes sense.
  92. # [00:56] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mpilgrim@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  93. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> wtf, php. It's telling me that it's max int is 2^31, as expected, and that is uses 4-bit ints. But it's also storing and showing me the number 11billion, which should require 34 bits to store.
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  96. # [00:57] <mpilgrim> annevk5: are you looking for results of those encoding tests?
  97. # [00:57] <mpilgrim> if so, which browsers?
  98. # [00:58] <Dashiva> I think he has all he needs for now
  99. # [00:58] <mpilgrim> ok
  100. # [00:58] <mpilgrim> what do they test?
  101. # [00:58] <Dashiva> charset parsing and aliasing, as far as I know
  102. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> That's what it looks like, yah.
  103. # [00:59] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: When will the first chapter of your new book be ready? :)
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  105. # [00:59] <gsnedders_> TabAtkins: It implicitly converts from ints to floats as needed
  106. # [00:59] <mpilgrim> as soon as i finish the last book
  107. # [01:00] * Dashiva chuckles at 4-bit ints
  108. # [01:00] * gsnedders_ noticed that too :)
  109. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Then how is it keeping accuracy? Just checked against my lisp implementation the value of a 7-digit number in base 32 (relevant to what I'm doing), and PHP and Lisp agree.
  110. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> And I know Lisp uses bigints.
  111. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> (the max 7-digit value, that is)
  112. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> I think my PHP is secretly using 8B ints and lying to me.
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  114. # [01:03] * TabAtkins just got what Dashiva and gsnedders were chuckling at.
  115. # [01:03] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: You note that Opera doesn't support text in ch4, but one of the examples earlier in the chapter uses text (and thus doesn't match the text in Opera)
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  117. # [01:03] <mpilgrim> yes
  118. # [01:03] <mpilgrim> the print edition will obviously use static images
  119. # [01:04] <mpilgrim> i tried to be up-front about it in each section
  120. # [01:04] <mpilgrim> if your browser has an "x", the section examples may not make sense
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  122. # [01:04] <mpilgrim> might end up using static images for the online edition too, and having separate example pages
  123. # [01:04] <Dashiva> *nod*
  124. # [01:05] <Dashiva> Just thought this might be confusing since the x for text won't appear for another few scrolls
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  128. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Man, I always forget that people on the list are actually the bloggers I read regularly.
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  133. # [01:25] <hober> how do you delete a page on the wiki?
  134. # [01:25] <hober> specifically, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Different_Types_of_Ugg_Boots
  135. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Only sysops can delete
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  138. # [01:38] <Lachy> hober, I can make you a sysop. What's you're wiki username?
  139. # [01:39] <hober> EdwardOConnor
  140. # [01:42] <Lachy> hober, done
  141. # [01:42] <Lachy> I already deleted that page and blocked the user, though
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  143. # [01:48] <hober> thanks, and thanks
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  155. # [02:21] <JonathanNeal> Oi, I'm switching our layouts to divs, it's madness.
  156. # [02:21] <JonathanNeal> Esp. when we should have a 960 grid available.
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  165. # [03:03] <TabAtkins> Hrm, JonathanNeal?
  166. # [03:07] <JonathanNeal> I'll show you in a bit.
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  191. # [04:20] <othermaciej> it's kind of wrong that the HTML5 Cheat Sheet is a PDF
  192. # [04:22] <TabAtkins> That... is kind of wrong.
  193. # [04:23] <TabAtkins> But then again, isn't it designed to be printed? PDF is an output format.
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  234. # [07:45] <othermaciej> quiet day here today
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  249. # [09:00] <othermaciej> are there any processing requirements for <article pubdate="..."> other than reflecting the markup attribute in the DOM as a string?
  250. # [09:05] * Quits: jorlow (n=jorlow@c-67-180-199-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  251. # [09:07] <hsivonen> is this for real: http://diveintohtml5.org/ ?
  252. # [09:07] <hsivonen> if so, yay!
  253. # [09:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I believe it is real
  254. # [09:08] <hsivonen> I was wondering who'd be the one to write the O'Reilly book
  255. # [09:08] <hsivonen> great to see it's mpilgrim_
  256. # [09:09] <othermaciej> I kinda love the old timey typesetting features
  257. # [09:10] <othermaciej> hsivonen: have you had a chance to read the PFWG's comments on ARIA vs host semantics?
  258. # [09:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: not yet
  259. # [09:13] * Quits: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@77.236.204.8) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  260. # [09:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I thought it looked pretty good - now reading <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/> to see how well it aligns
  261. # [09:15] * Quits: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  262. # [09:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I believe I developed my draft so that it addresses concerns form Michael Cooper's 4th paragraph
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  265. # [09:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I've now read http://www.w3.org/mid/4A8ADCA2.2000803@w3.org
  266. # [09:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: looks good to me
  267. # [09:19] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it's not 100% aligned with your old proposal from what I can see, but generally pretty good
  268. # [09:20] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the differences I see are that you suggested disallowing some role values and some states and properties completely
  269. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I can see why someone might argue the native vs. @role precedence to go the other way, but I can "live with it" either way
  270. # [09:20] <hsivonen> othermaciej: for validation
  271. # [09:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as far as I can tell, http://www.w3.org/mid/4A8ADCA2.2000803@w3.org allows making those cases non-conforming
  272. # [09:23] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think the idea there is that ARIA states/properties can only be rendered nonconforming if in conflict with some native semantics
  273. # [09:23] <hsivonen> oh
  274. # [09:23] <hsivonen> I guess I should read the email again
  275. # [09:23] <othermaciej> hsivonen: so for example, it would be in line with what they suggest to say you can't specify aria-level on an <h1>
  276. # [09:24] <othermaciej> hsivonen: but probably not in line to say it's not conforming on a <div>
  277. # [09:25] <othermaciej> hsivonen: aria-hidden seems logical to me since hidden is a global attribute with conflicting semantics
  278. # [09:26] <othermaciej> aria-datatype seems to be gone
  279. # [09:26] <hsivonen> @aria-hidden conflicts globally with @hidden by I imagine the idea is still to allow it everywhere
  280. # [09:27] <hsivonen> yeah, aria-datatype is gone, thankfully
  281. # [09:27] <hsivonen> s/by/but/
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  284. # [09:28] <othermaciej> @aria-owns seems like bad mojo now that I read about it
  285. # [09:28] <othermaciej> hi MikeSmith
  286. # [09:28] <othermaciej> but probably @aria-owns should be removed in ARIA if it is to be removed, and not by HTML5 conformance requirements
  287. # [09:28] <hsivonen> I agree
  288. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: hey
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  290. # [09:30] <othermaciej> @aria-templateid also seems to be gone
  291. # [09:31] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  292. # [09:34] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I guess aria-html5-bis is a good enough proposal until Hixie is ready to take a cut at it, despite being slightly dated now
  293. # [09:35] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the more up-to-date expression of it only exists in RELAX NG
  294. # [09:35] <hsivonen> I didn't re-express the update in prose/table form
  295. # [09:36] <othermaciej> do you have a link to the RELAX NG version? (not that I can read RELAX NG but maybe others with an interest can)
  296. # [09:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/aria.rnc
  297. # [09:39] <othermaciej> I have confirmed that I don't understand Relax NG
  298. # [09:44] <othermaciej> hsivonen: btw is it intentional that you haven't implemented the current draft alt requirements in validator.nu yet (as far as I can tell anyway)?
  299. # [09:44] <othermaciej> (it doesn't complain about missing alt even if you don't do any of the HTML5 alternative things)
  300. # [09:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it's intentional
  301. # [09:45] <othermaciej> the latest alt thread has just made me feel more uncertain what the right thing to do with alt is
  302. # [09:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: how so?
  303. # [09:46] <hsivonen> (me too, btw)
  304. # [09:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen: on the one hand, your argument that HTML5 as drafted seems at least somewhat against the spirit of ATAG2, and on the other hand, Jonas's point that alt is one of the few pieces of bolt-on accessibility that really works
  305. # [09:48] <othermaciej> hsivonen: for a tool like Dreamweaver, I can accept that if the author fails to add a text alternative, it's their fault the result is nonconforming
  306. # [09:48] <othermaciej> hsivonen: but that doesn't seem reasonable for something like Word's HTML converter, or the ever-popular Flickr example
  307. # [09:49] <hsivonen> for a tool like iWeb, I think it's very clear-cut that there's an error in abstraction layers if user actions cause a syntax error on the HTML level
  308. # [09:49] <hsivonen> however, I think iWeb should still do more to badger users into creating WCAG 2-compliant content
  309. # [09:49] <hsivonen> although there's no way for iWeb to force it
  310. # [09:49] <othermaciej> iWeb does try to hide the underlying HTML from you
  311. # [09:50] <othermaciej> right now it seems to put alt="" on everything
  312. # [09:50] <othermaciej> :-(
  313. # [09:51] <hsivonen> I think it's the user's fault if the tool offered sane UI for creating accessible pages and the user didn't care
  314. # [09:51] <hsivonen> however, I also understand why tool developers feel it's their fault if the output has syntax errors
  315. # [09:53] <othermaciej> actually, there seem to be cases where it omits alt instead
  316. # [09:53] <hsivonen> anyway, I'm willing to try the "missing" marker route from WAI consensus unless someone manages to point out fatal flaws with it
  317. # [09:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what cases?
  318. # [09:53] <othermaciej> I don't know, I'm just looking at some iWeb output, not trying to use it
  319. # [09:54] <othermaciej> http://www.hmsbeekeeper.com/HMSB/Blog/Blog.html is made with iWeb
  320. # [09:54] <othermaciej> it seems to put alt="" on presentational images and no alt on actual content images
  321. # [09:54] <hsivonen> I tested iWeb 2.0.4
  322. # [09:55] <othermaciej> I think the main objection to the idea of a missing marker was that it makes it more work to say the same thing as just omitting alt
  323. # [09:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: whoa! Apple shipped jsmin.c with sentence that IBM had an issue with!
  324. # [09:55] * hsivonen goes check if the iWeb EULA probits use for Evil
  325. # [09:56] <hsivonen> the requirement isn't carried forward to the EULA
  326. # [09:56] <othermaciej> on the other hand, it does seem like a missing marker would make validation more effective at pestering you about alt
  327. # [09:57] <othermaciej> by distinguishing forgotten from omitted because unavailable
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  329. # [09:57] <hsivonen> hmm. iWeb seems to incorporate Tidy Lib
  330. # [09:57] <othermaciej> although the current HTML5 draft also sort of distinguishes that, though I'm not sure if the way it does it is better than a "missing" attribute
  331. # [09:58] <othermaciej> hsivonen: various parts of Mac OS X use libtidy
  332. # [09:58] <othermaciej> how can you tell that iWeb uses jsmin.c? distinctive output?
  333. # [09:58] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I clicked "Acknowledgments" in the about box
  334. # [09:58] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I see
  335. # [09:59] <othermaciej> well, I know Apple Legal usually carefully reviews licenses of any third party code we incorporate
  336. # [10:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  337. # [10:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: does http://oreilly.com/css-html/dive-into-html5/call-it-a-drawing-surface.html use <mark> correctly in your opinion?
  338. # [10:11] <annevk5> Hixie usually uses <strong> or <em> iirc...
  339. # [10:12] <annevk5> it's also not something you'd want to appear on the scrollbar as a tickmark
  340. # [10:12] <Lachy> hsivonen, in the code samples, it looks right to me
  341. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: even considering what annevk5 said about tickmarks?
  342. # [10:12] <othermaciej> it's also not the kind of thing where you would want native browser UI to jump from one <mark> to the next, afaict
  343. # [10:13] <annevk5> indeed
  344. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I'd also expect command-g to cycle between <mark> elements when there's no user-entered command-f search string
  345. # [10:13] <hsivonen> right
  346. # [10:13] <hsivonen> mpilgrim_: ^
  347. # [10:13] <Lachy> it's one of the use cases <mark> was designed for, and there's even an example of it in the spec
  348. # [10:13] <annevk5> no it's not
  349. # [10:14] <Lachy> this example from the spec:
  350. # [10:14] <Lachy> <pre><code>var i: Integer;
  351. # [10:14] <Lachy> begin
  352. # [10:14] <Lachy> i := <mark>1.1</mark>;
  353. # [10:14] <Lachy> end.</code></pre>
  354. # [10:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: interesting idea for what the <mark>-cycling UI should be
  355. # [10:14] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("sleep")
  356. # [10:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I've been stuck on thinking of one - I don't think the HI team will approve of previous/next buttons for it that are always present in the browser chrome
  357. # [10:16] <annevk5> Lachy, indeed, and the description of the mark element doesn't really give you the impression what the UI in UAs will be either
  358. # [10:16] <annevk5> Lachy, but the suggested UI does not make much sense for examples like that
  359. # [10:16] <annevk5> at all
  360. # [10:17] <Lachy> yeah, but I'm not convinced of the need for a UI like that anyway
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  362. # [10:17] <othermaciej> from the UI, it seems like the purpose of <mark> is for something like Google search term highlighting
  363. # [10:18] <othermaciej> or for highlighting lines with your nick in an IRC log
  364. # [10:18] <Lachy> at least, a UI that shows tick marks in the scroll bar all the time would be aweful. Maybe if they were turned on at user request, it might be acceptable.
  365. # [10:18] <hsivonen> I understood the use case to be that user searches on google, user follows link to a site, site grabs google search term from referer and highlights occurrences of the term using <mark>
  366. # [10:18] <othermaciej> I will probably initially implement it without any of the extra UI, just the style rules
  367. # [10:19] <Lachy> othermaciej, yeah, it's for that, as well as highlighting stuff in code samples, quotes, etc. that is relevant to the reader in context
  368. # [10:19] <Lachy> do we need a way to distinguish the two cases?
  369. # [10:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: well for those things, the cycling UI would be pointless, and tick marks in the scroll bars would be terrible
  370. # [10:19] <annevk5> hsivonen, me too
  371. # [10:20] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@dyn-130-194-69-205.its.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  372. # [10:20] <annevk5> hsivonen, or a cached page with search results highlighted, etc.
  373. # [10:20] <othermaciej> Lachy: I kinda thought the cases you just described were meant to be served by <b> (with possible custom style rules on b)
  374. # [10:20] <annevk5> no, you'd want <strong> as the lines are slightly more important in the context then the surrounding lines
  375. # [10:21] <othermaciej> fair enough
  376. # [10:22] * Joins: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  377. # [10:23] <Lachy> no, mark was introduced so strong wouldn't be abused for that.
  378. # [10:23] <gsnedders> But strong means important
  379. # [10:23] <Lachy> the definition of mark actually does make a distinction between the two cases:
  380. # [10:24] <Lachy> "When used in a quotation or other block of text referred to from the prose, it indicates a highlight that was not originally present but which has been added to bring the reader's attention to a part of the text"
  381. # [10:24] <gsnedders> It's a mess and badly definedm IMO
  382. # [10:24] <Lachy> and "When used in the main prose of a document, it indicates a part of the document that has been highlighted due to its likely relevance to the user's current activity."
  383. # [10:24] <othermaciej> the suggested UI for <mark> seems out of line with the defined semantics and examples
  384. # [10:25] <Lachy> maybe <mark> used within <pre>, <code> and <blockquote> wouldn't be indicated by the UI (like scroll bar tick marks), but other uses outside of those elements would.
  385. # [10:26] <annevk5> Lachy, I think you're wrong and I think "activity" refers to something like searching not reading
  386. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Lachy: that sounds kind of arbitrary
  387. # [10:27] <Lachy> annevk5, I think your wrong, because I remember the discussions from when this was being defined
  388. # [10:27] <annevk5> Lachy, I also do not think it is abuse of <strong> as usage of <em>/<strong> etc. is very context-dependent and that is exactly what is happening here
  389. # [10:27] <othermaciej> annevk5: the spec and examples seem to be in line with what Lachy is saying
  390. # [10:27] <othermaciej> annevk5: although the suggested UI for <mark> is kind of not...
  391. # [10:27] <annevk5> maybe we should fix the spec :)
  392. # [10:28] * annevk5 files a bug
  393. # [10:28] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  394. # [10:29] <annevk5> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7368
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  398. # [10:38] <jgraham> semantics ftw
  399. # [10:38] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-famlllfhrqymrfcn)
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  402. # [10:44] <nvartolomei> http://funkyimg.com/u2/203/307/qbfyh2b466kg22q3pym.jpg
  403. # [10:46] <othermaciej> funny, but not really appropriate for this channel
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  407. # [11:03] <annevk5> shepazu, btw, changing the interface of <canvas> would break some simple painting application I wrote and have used in a lot of my HTML5 presentations
  408. # [11:04] <annevk5> shepazu, I prototype HTMLCanvasElement; I suspect I'm not the only one
  409. # [11:04] <hsivonen> whoa! did shepazu's draft suggest changing the name of the interface?
  410. # [11:04] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  411. # [11:04] <hsivonen> can't have that
  412. # [11:05] <othermaciej> hsivonen, annevk5: I was going to mention that as one of the reasons breaking out the IDL interface doesn't work
  413. # [11:07] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, but it does explicitly say that "The interface name itself may be host-language dependent, as may any additional attributes, methods, and objects supported by the element."
  414. # [11:07] <hsivonen> ok
  415. # [11:07] <othermaciej> there's also the fact that reflection between width/height IDL attributes and the relevant canvas markup attributes needs to be defined
  416. # [11:07] <Dashiva> Lachy: Then what is the purpose of separating out the interface?
  417. # [11:07] <Lachy> so I believe shepazu is intending that we would keep HTMLCanvasElement in HTML5, but say that it implements/inherits the CanvasElement interface
  418. # [11:07] <Lachy> Dashiva, I don't know
  419. # [11:07] <Lachy> That's why I told shepazu I didn't think it was a good idea
  420. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: inheriting might work
  421. # [11:08] <othermaciej> (and you can't define it in the canvas API spec because it doesn't work for <svg:image>, since that already has width and height attributes with a different meaning)
  422. # [11:08] <annevk5> hsivonen, not really
  423. # [11:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think inheriting might not work quite right for the various types of prototype hacking people do
  424. # [11:08] <annevk5> hsivonen, unless you have multiple inheritance
  425. # [11:08] <hsivonen> ok
  426. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I don't know enough about the patterns here
  427. # [11:09] <annevk5> for HTML it needs to inherit from HTMLElement at some point
  428. # [11:09] <annevk5> for SVG probably not
  429. # [11:10] <othermaciej> in fact, I think SVGImageElement already has width and height IDL attributes with different semantics and different types
  430. # [11:11] <othermaciej> (mind you, I'm not sure SVGImageElement is the right SVG element to expose the canvas interface at all, but let's assume it is plausible)
  431. # [11:11] <Lachy> othermaciej, you should point that out in the thread where I said to be cautious about overloading <image> in SVG with the canvas API
  432. # [11:11] <annevk5> I don't quite understand why <foreignObject> is not good enough
  433. # [11:11] <othermaciej> and a third reason is, RenderingContext2D is desirable in some cases where it's not bound to an element at all, as with WebKits canvas background extension
  434. # [11:12] <annevk5> that extension is dubious imo :)
  435. # [11:12] <othermaciej> so it should be spec'd in a way where it can work with a backing store that is not necessarily owned by an element, to make it truly maximally reusable
  436. # [11:12] <othermaciej> annevk5: I don't know if it's great as-is, but there might be things like it that do make sense
  437. # [11:12] <Lachy> othermaciej, how does webkit's canvas background extension work?
  438. # [11:12] <othermaciej> annevk5: like custom-rendered datagrid cells
  439. # [11:13] <annevk5> yeah, that one was interesting
  440. # [11:13] <othermaciej> Lachy: if I recall correctly, it's like a background image in that multiple elements can reference it via style rules, but there's only a single backing store to paint to
  441. # [11:13] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  442. # [11:13] <annevk5> it's something like background:-webkit-canvas(ident)
  443. # [11:14] <Lachy> http://webkit.org/blog/176/css-canvas-drawing/
  444. # [11:15] <othermaciej> anyway, we are not sure of this extension ourselves, this being one reason we have not tried to standardize it
  445. # [11:15] <annevk5> oh look, my memory is pretty decent :)
  446. # [11:15] * Parts: nvartolomei (n=nvartolo@host-static-92-115-197-29.moldtelecom.md)
  447. # [11:16] <Lachy> I don't know what the use cases would be for a dynamic background like that
  448. # [11:16] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  449. # [11:17] <othermaciej> Lachy: let's say you wanted to highlight lines of text with a semi-randomized generated appearance that sort of looks like a real highlighter mark
  450. # [11:18] <othermaciej> Lachy: although that would need text metrics...
  451. # [11:18] <othermaciej> but basically any case where you want a purely presentational image, but there's reason to dynamically generate it client side
  452. # [11:19] <Lachy> but even that doesn't require the element interface to be abstracted at all. It just uses the 2D context interface which doesn't strictly need to be attached to an element (except it's not clear what the ctx.canvas property would return)
  453. # [11:20] <othermaciej> Lachy: that's what I'm saying - the 2D context needs to be spec'd purely in terms of a backing store, with ways to define its size and such independent of a specific IDL interface for an element
  454. # [11:21] <Lachy> ok
  455. # [11:22] <othermaciej> and indeed, svg:image already has width and height IDL attributes of type SVGAnimatedLength
  456. # [11:23] <othermaciej> so it would need separate IDL and markup attributes to control backing store size, if it is to be used as a canvas
  457. # [11:23] <othermaciej> anyway, will try to lay all this out in an email soon
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  461. # [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, that's acceptable use of <mark>
  462. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm surprised.
  463. # [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, i didn't originally think of it as being used in pre
  464. # [11:44] <Hixie> i was only really thinking of blockquote
  465. # [11:44] <Hixie> i should probably do some tweaks
  466. # [11:44] <Hixie> but that's the basic idea of what i had in mind
  467. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems to make <mark> too broad to be useful
  468. # [11:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: the use in dive into html5 and some of the spec examples don't really line up with the suggested browser UI for it
  469. # [11:45] <Hixie> yeah the browser ui may be pie in the sky
  470. # [11:45] <Hixie> maybe the highlight effect is more interesting than the scrollbar highlights
  471. # [11:45] <othermaciej> I mean, I can see cases where scroll bar tick marks and a "jump to next" UI would be really useful
  472. # [11:45] <Hixie> yeah
  473. # [11:45] <othermaciej> it's just that not all the use cases for <mark> as currently defined fit the bill
  474. # [11:46] <othermaciej> (highlighting a referrer's search terms, or the user's nick in an IRC log, seem like valid uses for the proposed UI to me)
  475. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: if browsers don't become UI-sensitive to <mark>, <mark> will be just another <em>
  476. # [11:47] <hsivonen> in which case we might as well get rid of the whole thing
  477. # [11:47] <jgraham> In general if browsers aren't sensitive to x x becomes another y where y is the element with the closest formatting to x
  478. # [11:48] <Hixie> i think having a highlight element is very different than having a stress emphasis element
  479. # [11:48] <Hixie> but it would be nice to have both a highlight element and a way to highlight content for the scrollbar
  480. # [11:49] <Hixie> maybe i can add an attribute or something
  481. # [11:49] <Hixie> someone file a bug or something about it so i don't forget
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  483. # [11:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: Anne filed a bug
  484. # [11:51] <Hixie> thanks
  485. # [11:51] <annevk2> Hixie, <strong> is not emphasis
  486. # [11:51] <othermaciej> (not exactly suggesting an attribute but pointing out that the suggested UI doesn't seem in line with all the examples)
  487. # [11:52] <Hixie> annevk2: strong is importance, which is different than highlighting the relevant part
  488. # [11:52] <Hixie> annevk2: but anyway i'll look at it at some later point
  489. # [11:52] <Hixie> i've been up some 20 hours so far
  490. # [11:52] <annevk2> Hixie, fair enough, but imo the difference is too subtle
  491. # [11:52] <Hixie> one's yellow, the other is bold
  492. # [11:53] <Hixie> it's not that subtle
  493. # [11:53] <annevk2> I usually have some rule code > strong { color:purple }
  494. # [11:54] <othermaciej> the visual difference of highlighting vs bolding I think will convey a different sense to people who are used to print
  495. # [11:54] <othermaciej> but the semantic difference seems subtle
  496. # [11:57] <Hixie> anyway i should sleep
  497. # [11:57] <Hixie> nn
  498. # [11:57] <othermaciej> good night
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  509. # [12:14] <Lachy> The semantic difference isn't that subtle. One is denoting relevance, the other importance.
  510. # [12:15] <annevk2> and the more relevant line is more important to the user
  511. # [12:15] <annevk2> bwah
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  517. # [12:32] <hsivonen> that strong is about importance borders on angels on the head of a pin
  518. # [12:34] <Dashiva> Are there some canonical examples of important non-relevant, relevant non-important and important-and-relevant?
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  528. # [13:15] <zcorpan> A: Yes. The default font is 10px sans-serif. Sizes in em or percentages are measured against the default font." -- http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html
  529. # [13:16] <virtuelv> isn't exposing the BarProp properties a security issue?
  530. # [13:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: see? now change the spec :)
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  532. # [13:24] * jgraham wonders what zcorpan wants changed
  533. # [13:24] <Lachy> zcorpan, what was the question? I don't see it in the backlog
  534. # [13:24] <jgraham> hint: I don't remember much about canvas text
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  536. # [13:25] * gsnedders points at public-html
  537. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Honestly, don't you read it?
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  540. # [13:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Actually it turns out that that was one of the 2505 messages I haven't read on public0html
  541. # [13:27] <Lachy> gsnedders, which mail specifically?
  542. # [13:28] <Lachy> this one from about 18 days ago seems to be the only relevant one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0007.html
  543. # [13:32] <gsnedders> Ow. I just hiccuped and bit my tongue. The poor little boy is in pain.
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  547. # [13:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: the spec says em and % in canvas text is relative to the canvas element's computed style (if it has one, or 10px sans-serif otherwise) instead of being relative to the default (10px sans-serif)
  548. # [13:49] <zcorpan> jgraham: i want it to always be relative to the default (10px sans-serif)
  549. # [13:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah I read your mail. I agree that sizes should always be relative to the same thing
  550. # [13:50] <zcorpan> jgraham: i would appreciate if you said so on the list :)
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  585. # [16:04] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/inboxzero heh
  586. # [16:04] <annevk2> (via daringfireball)
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  592. # [16:20] <annevk2> hsivonen, did you also get "MTV News is now following you on Twitter!"?
  593. # [16:22] <hsivonen> annevk2: I've turned those off
  594. # [16:22] <hsivonen> annevk2: let's see if they are following me
  595. # [16:25] <hsivonen> annevk2: it seems they aren't following me
  596. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> Lucky you, Anne.
  597. # [16:27] <othermaciej> sigh, still can't sleep
  598. # [16:29] <Dashiva> The biggest problem with a dungeon is the ventilation.
  599. # [16:30] <annevk2> TabAtkins, I still haven't quite figured out what the big benefit of a big follower count is
  600. # [16:30] <TabAtkins> Big follower count = big penis.
  601. # [16:30] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: You talking D&D-style dungeons?
  602. # [16:31] <Dashiva> No, http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/3399044637
  603. # [16:31] <annevk2> TabAtkins, so Oprah has 2M followers...
  604. # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk2: Oprah's penis is roughly 3 meters long.
  605. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Ah, kk
  606. # [16:32] <othermaciej> that is a disturbing image
  607. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, take *that* to sleep with you.
  608. # [16:33] <Dashiva> My bed is only 2 meters, it wouldn't fit
  609. # [16:35] * TabAtkins needs to go get his daily Sonic fix.
  610. # [16:37] <miketaylr> man, i wish we had sonic in new york
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  612. # [16:41] <annevk2> hmm, a lot of the encoding tests just fail in Firefox 3.7a on Windows 7...
  613. # [16:44] <hsivonen> annevk2: with html5.enable = true?
  614. # [16:45] <annevk2> i hadn't changed prefs yet
  615. # [16:45] <annevk2> i'll enable that
  616. # [16:46] <annevk2> reboot?
  617. # [16:46] <annevk2> s/reboot/restart/ ?
  618. # [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk2: no need to restart the browser after setting it
  619. # [16:48] <annevk2> seems to run better with it enabled...
  620. # [16:49] <hsivonen> cool
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  624. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> html5.enable isn't in the shipping 3.5, right?
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  626. # [17:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: right
  627. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> miketaylr: Yeah, you're missing out. I'm pretty sure I'm physically addicted to 44oz double-vanilla Dr. Peppers.
  628. # [17:03] <inimino> TabAtkins: right
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  630. # [17:05] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: every now and then i get a fix when i go back to my parents home in oklahoma... ;)
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  633. # [17:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: There's a bug in html5 enabled Fx giving the wrong tree through DOM unless there's an alert first
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  635. # [17:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: test case?
  636. # [17:15] * gsnedders was expecting that
  637. # [17:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: with which parser?
  638. # [17:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: HTML 5
  639. # [17:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: known issue in the old one
  640. # [17:16] <hsivonen> that's bad
  641. # [17:16] <gsnedders> This particular bug doesn't exist in the old one as far as I can tell
  642. # [17:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does it involve object, applet, video or the like?
  643. # [17:16] <gsnedders> No
  644. # [17:17] <hsivonen> interesting
  645. # [17:17] <gsnedders> Just the last node in the document being a text node
  646. # [17:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: oh do you mean you can't see document.written trailing text via DOM?
  647. # [17:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yeah
  648. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Yeah, it is only document.written text
  649. # [17:18] * gsnedders only just found that out
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  651. # [17:18] <hsivonen> gsnedders: an alert shouldn't help with that
  652. # [17:18] <hsivonen> but yeah, known issue
  653. # [17:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Got a bug for that?
  654. # [17:18] <hsivonen> basically, I aligned with WebKit
  655. # [17:18] <hsivonen> than Hixie said aligment with IE was right
  656. # [17:19] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I think there's no bug. I'll file one
  657. # [17:19] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Opera has the same bug/design, IIRC
  658. # [17:20] <gsnedders> We match HTML 5 as far as I can tell
  659. # [17:20] <gsnedders> http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm fails a lot in Fx because of it
  660. # [17:21] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Why does it depend upon the presence of an alert though?
  661. # [17:21] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511405 filed
  662. # [17:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it shouldn't!
  663. # [17:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: that's very odd
  664. # [17:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Using an alert seems to flush the buffer
  665. # [17:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Also, shouldn't document.close() flush it?
  666. # [17:23] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes.
  667. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Hmm, my minimal TC is too minimal :)
  668. # [17:23] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ooh. you use document.close!
  669. # [17:23] <hsivonen> it doesn't flush synchronously
  670. # [17:23] <gsnedders> s/you/zcorpan/ :)
  671. # [17:23] <hsivonen> alert spins the event loop, so it gets flushed
  672. # [17:24] <hsivonen> alert doesn't affect document.write AFAIK but does affect document.close
  673. # [17:24] <gsnedders> You got any got idea of how to fix that script?
  674. # [17:24] <gsnedders> (or should it just be fixed in fx?)
  675. # [17:25] <hsivonen> document.write a comment after the text
  676. # [17:25] <hsivonen> it'll take a while before I get to fixing it
  677. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Then magic is needed to avoid that causing all tests to fail
  678. # [17:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Can't you use a data url rather than document.write, or something?
  679. # [17:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: can you use setTimeout for the continuation ofter document.close?
  680. # [17:26] <hsivonen> *after
  681. # [17:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it fails in WebKit, too, right?
  682. # [17:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Weird stuff happens in WebKit with that script :)
  683. # [17:27] <gsnedders> Like throwing when writing <script><div><script> into the iframe in the specific case, but not when doing it outside of that script
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  694. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> Woo! Bert just invited me to be part of the CSS WG!
  695. # [17:59] <othermaciej> grats!
  696. # [17:59] <othermaciej> (I guess?)
  697. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Heh, this is a good thing.
  698. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> I've been interested in this sort of thing for a long time. ^_^
  699. # [18:04] <sgalineau> Cool, I was going to remind him to send that mail :)
  700. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> ^_^ Thanks, Sylvain.
  701. # [18:09] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: how did you first get into standards stuff?
  702. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie's and Hakon's blogs, when I first started picking up web projects here at work.
  703. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> Sorry, Tantek, not Hakon.
  704. # [18:09] <othermaciej> good places to start I guess :-)
  705. # [18:10] <sgalineau> I didn't even know Hakon and Tantek had blogs (feeling clueless)
  706. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> I only *started* doing webdesign like two years ago, and when I was first teaching myself through googling, they were referenced a lot.
  707. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Hakon might not, I dunno.
  708. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Posts like the "levels of HTML knowledge" and "bed and <br>eakfast markup" were real eye-openers for my virgin self.
  709. # [18:11] <sgalineau> whoa. talk of tab virginity early in the morning.
  710. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> web virginity only.
  711. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> And, um, I guess only a very specific *kind* of web virginity.
  712. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> Webdevirginity?
  713. # [18:12] <sgalineau> found the levels of HTML knowledge, can't place the other one
  714. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> http://tantek.com/log/2002/10.html#L20021022t1432
  715. # [18:13] * Quits: harig (n=aparan@59.90.71.35) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  717. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> And Hixie's deconstructions of popular sites, ripping them apart for their nonsemantic structure, were very helpful in shaping me.
  718. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> Then I just joined the css and whatwg lists, and started participating from there.
  719. # [18:14] * Joins: atwilson (n=atwilson@74.125.59.1)
  720. # [18:14] <sgalineau> I definitely need to design more. only way to be good at this.
  721. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  722. # [18:15] <sgalineau> ...could make me hate my employer though....:)
  723. # [18:16] * Quits: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  724. # [18:16] * Joins: Rik|work (n=Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  725. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> That or tip you over into the "Everything MS does is *GOLD*, I tell you!" camp.
  726. # [18:16] <sgalineau> that is quite the unlikely scenario
  727. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  728. # [18:17] <sgalineau> I've used Opera Show for CSS presentations and wore a Firefox 1.0 t-shirt on my first day. and that was the least offensive stuff.
  729. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> If more computers at my college had Opera installed, I would have used that a lot. Instead I just designed a basic slideshow thinger in PHP.
  730. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Tell me: how did the IE team react to that shirt?
  731. # [18:19] <sgalineau> told me to upgrade :)
  732. # [18:19] * Quits: mpilgrim_ (n=mpilgrim@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  733. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
  734. # [18:19] <sgalineau> as in, Firefox 1.0 is too old
  735. # [18:20] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mpilgrim@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  736. # [18:20] <sgalineau> at the last WG meeting, I had a microsoft t-shirt that says 'I am the empire'
  737. # [18:20] <sgalineau> Hakon had to take a picture of that
  738. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> I approve.
  739. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Now I just need to get my company to start funding my travels around the globe for the FtFs.
  740. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Alternately: convince my wife that we're going on vacation a lot.
  741. # [18:23] <sgalineau> next two are in the US
  742. # [18:23] <sgalineau> west coast
  743. # [18:23] <sgalineau> bay area
  744. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Is bar area near SF, or LA?
  745. # [18:24] <sgalineau> sf
  746. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Damsn. I've got family near LA.
  747. # [18:24] <sgalineau> next meeting is at the W3C TPAC in Santa Clara
  748. # [18:24] <sgalineau> following one at Apple I think
  749. # [18:24] <sgalineau> then in August in Oslo at Opera. I'd save us for that and make it a vacation
  750. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Ooh, going to Norway would we awesome. August next year?
  751. # [18:26] <sgalineau> yup
  752. # [18:26] <sgalineau> Oslo in August is supposed to be really lovely
  753. # [18:27] <sgalineau> I should be paying attention to the CSS WG telcon. I'm not smart enough to be an invited expert....
  754. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Hmm. 5th anniversary would be next June. Maybe keep that small and take an august trip...
  755. # [18:28] <sgalineau> we'll drink red stripe in champagne flutes.
  756. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> It's a date.
  757. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> A, um, three-way date. With my wife.
  758. # [18:28] <sgalineau> you realize that you're suggesting a three-way date to a frenchman...right ?
  759. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  760. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> I don't know how to make that dirty french laugh thing in words.
  761. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> But I'd do it if I could.
  762. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> Also: apparently your picture on Facebook reminds my wife of an old boyfriend.
  763. # [18:31] <sgalineau> lol
  764. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Wow, tantek's use on his blog of <p> as an inline element with a marker at the beginning to separate it from surrounding <p>s is... weird.
  765. # [18:35] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
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  767. # [18:40] * mpilgrim is not looking forward to the "here's all the new semantic markup you can use in html 5" chapter of diveintohtml5
  768. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> given the level of discussion over the <mark> element
  769. # [18:41] <othermaciej> most of the other new semantic markup is pretty clear-cut in its usage
  770. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> maybe i should just call the chapter "what color is your bikeshed?" and be done with it
  771. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> hahaha
  772. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> it's cute that you think that
  773. # [18:41] <othermaciej> easy for me to say, I don't have to write web pages for a living
  774. # [18:42] <jgraham> We need an interoperability test for semantic markup. Unless we can prove that a majority of authours are using markup in accordance with the specified semantic the spec shouldn't be allowed to go to Rec.
  775. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> I think <article> is still a bit confusing. The example usage seems to conflict with what I want to use it for, which is something to wrap the main content of a page.
  776. # [18:42] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it's not really suitable for that in the general case, although a <main> or <content> element for that has been proposed
  777. # [18:42] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  778. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah, saw that discussion a few days ago.
  779. # [18:43] <jgraham> I am quite concerned at the difficulty people have with the sectioning elements in general. I mean people couldn't use headings in HTML 4 either but I sort of hoped we could do better
  780. # [18:43] <othermaciej> the only one I find somewhat confusing is <section> itself
  781. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> I think a focus on "this shit generates entries in outlines" might help?
  782. # [18:44] * mpilgrim sits back and waits for everyone to prove his point
  783. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> But then you'd have people saying "wtf use are outlines?"
  784. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: hahaha
  785. # [18:45] <othermaciej> well, the section elements are supposed to be for web applications to, and an outline of an app is at the very least hard to think about, if not outright incoherent
  786. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> I guess.
  787. # [18:45] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Indeed. But it depends if you can get good results (x-epsilon)% of authors who don't get the outline thing
  788. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> I think the "it resets your <h1-6> nesting" is the primary take-away use I get from <section>.
  789. # [18:46] <jgraham> othermaciej: I think of them as being basically document constructs by analogy with LaTeX. But it makes some sense for applications too
  790. # [18:46] <othermaciej> also most people will never actually be exposed to the outline, so we can expect the same quality as for other invisible metadata
  791. # [18:46] * mpilgrim waits for the accessibility experts to magically become semantics experts and highlight this entire conversation in the irc logs
  792. # [18:46] <jgraham> If there is a use case for jumping between parts of the application UI
  793. # [18:46] <othermaciej> I love reading commentary on IRC conversations in email
  794. # [18:47] * jgraham hopes that hsivonen will put the outline on validator.nu so it gets the same exposure as other authoring errors
  795. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> That would be nice.
  796. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> I've got an outlining tool in Web Developer FF add-on, but it doesn't understand the html5 algorithm so it just assumes everything is a top-level entry. >_<
  797. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> Plus: it's pretty well-hidden.
  798. # [18:49] <othermaciej> I mean, Google Calendar clearly has separate "sections" in the layout but I'm not sure an outline of them is a sensible idea
  799. # [18:49] <mpilgrim> TabAtkins: i like the framing of "it resets your <h*> nesting"
  800. # [18:49] <othermaciej> I guess it's easier to understand elements that actually do stuff
  801. # [18:50] <mpilgrim> i think i'll name the chapter "two headers are better than one"
  802. # [18:50] <othermaciej> no one wonders when to use <canvas> or <video>
  803. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> I ran into really annoying issues with <h*> nesting (I like <h*> best of all!) when designing the template for my site.
  804. # [18:51] <jgraham> othermaciej: As far as I can tell that is basically the "semantics failed" position
  805. # [18:51] <sgalineau> Tab, where's your site ?
  806. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> I ended up having to start the content at like <h4>, which was confusing as hell because you never see the <h1> - <h3> elements because they're in the template.
  807. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> I do all of the sites for my company, http://www.igofigure.com
  808. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Plus several intranet apps for same, all hidden behind password walls.
  809. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> My personal site is just a dumping ground of random stuff, plus my silent evangelism for Internet Time, www.xanthir.com
  810. # [18:52] <sgalineau> love the comments : "Yes, this is a table-based layout. Yes, I am ashamed of myself."
  811. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, yeah.
  812. # [18:53] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  813. # [18:54] <Lachy> I really don't get what's so hard about the sectioning elements, especially considering how many people kept asking us to add XHTML2-style sectioning/headings despite already having it
  814. # [18:54] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Zb750.z.pppool.de)
  815. # [18:56] <sgalineau> they may have been vocal, but clearly they were not representative
  816. # [18:56] <othermaciej> it's not really clear to me when to use <section> and when to use <div> in something that's not a traditional document structure
  817. # [18:57] <Lachy> mpilgrim, I think the easiest way to illustrate the sectioning element's function is to use a diagram showing how a document is structured.
  818. # [18:57] <jgraham> othermaciej: If it has a header it is likely a <section> if not probably a <div> probably works in many cases
  819. # [18:57] <jgraham> s/header/heading/
  820. # [18:57] <Lachy> first get people thinking about documents in terms of their outline structure, and then it's much easier to get them to use the markup correctly
  821. # [18:57] <mpilgrim> as you may have noticed, i'm trying to explain things more visually in diveintohtml5 than in my previous books
  822. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, that's my take. Combined with the "resets <h*>" focus, it's relatively clear.
  823. # [18:57] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  824. # [18:58] <mpilgrim> so yeah, a diagram is probably a good solution
  825. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Use it when you have headings, *because* it resets your headings.
  826. # [18:58] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  827. # [18:58] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: I haven't read your previous books (for shame) but I love the old timey typesetting elements in this one
  828. # [18:59] <mpilgrim> thanks
  829. # [18:59] <mpilgrim> my O'Reilly editor likes it too
  830. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Honestly, since the first chapter I saw was for <canvas>, I thought the giant ornate dropcap was a <canvas>.
  831. # [18:59] <mpilgrim> not sure how much of it will translate into print form
  832. # [19:00] <mpilgrim> they're pretty strict about their brand, and typography is a big part of their brand for obvious reasons
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  834. # [19:00] <jgraham> Yeah the typography is nice. It feels (perhaps wrongly) somewhat _why influenced
  835. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> that was one of my influences, yes
  836. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> _why is the ruby dude, right?
  837. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> along with o'reilly's head-first series
  838. # [19:01] * Joins: sylvaing2 (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-cqeetwywuxrtvqkf)
  839. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> (this is not a head-first book, but i like some of the design elements)
  840. # [19:03] <mpilgrim> the typography was created using Philip`'s font subsetting scripts
  841. # [19:03] <mpilgrim> including the IE-compatible .eot files
  842. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Dang, Philip` does everything.
  843. # [19:03] * sylvaing2 reflexively dodges at the mention of EOT
  844. # [19:04] <Philip`> I hope you didn't use my scripts on OFL-licensed fonts, because that would violate their licence
  845. # [19:04] <mpilgrim> that's upsetting news
  846. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> License proliferation for the lose. ;_;
  847. # [19:04] <mpilgrim> linux libertine is OFL-licensed IIRC
  848. # [19:04] <Philip`> ...because of the Reserved Name stuff which I haven't got around to fixing yet
  849. # [19:05] <mpilgrim> is there a url explaining this problem?
  850. # [19:05] <Philip`> (You're not allowed to use the original font's name in a modified version, but my scripts keep the old name and prefix it with "subset of")
  851. # [19:05] <mpilgrim> i see
  852. # [19:05] <Philip`> See the OFL licence, I think it's fairly clear about it
  853. # [19:05] <jgraham> mpilgrim: Libertine seems to be GPL/OFL dual licensed
  854. # [19:06] <Philip`> You could always use my font-name altering script to alter the font's name so it's no longer in violation :-)
  855. # [19:06] <mpilgrim> jgraham: hooray for dual-licensing!
  856. # [19:06] <mpilgrim> (man, how many times do you get to say that?)
  857. # [19:06] <Philip`> or wait until next week or something when I'll probably fix my code
  858. # [19:06] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: Every time you're a user and not a developer? :)
  859. # [19:06] * Quits: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@131.107.0.74) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  860. # [19:06] <mpilgrim> i've been a developer since i was 11
  861. # [19:07] <Dashiva> Well, whenever you're not wearing your dev hat
  862. # [19:07] <Philip`> Your ten-year-old self would surely have appreciated dual-licensing
  863. # [19:07] <mpilgrim> jgraham: you are correct, it's dual-licensed under OFL and GPL-with-font-exception
  864. # [19:07] <mpilgrim> i shall update my about page to mention which license i'm using
  865. # [19:07] <mpilgrim> and call it a day
  866. # [19:08] <Philip`> If you distribute a GPL font, do you have to distribute the original FontForge (or whatever) editable source version?
  867. # [19:08] <Dashiva> Surely you only have to have it available on request?
  868. # [19:09] <mpilgrim> i don't know, but i would be happy to do so
  869. # [19:09] <Philip`> Dashiva: Well, that too
  870. # [19:10] <Dashiva> (as in, you don't actually bother until someone sends an email and asks)
  871. # [19:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  872. # [19:12] <mpilgrim> i aim to be maximally license-compliant, so i will add the font sources to my repository and link them from the about page
  873. # [19:12] <Philip`> I hope you don't care too much if your fonts aren't spec-compliant
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  876. # [19:22] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@nat/canonical/x-yrhznntckuqdxmwc) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  879. # [19:23] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@host86-132-125-223.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  880. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Is there any reason to ever have a document with multiple <articles> that *aren't* wrapped by an overall <article>?
  881. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> I'm thinking that maybe blogs using <article> for comments (as suggested by the spec) might not want to wrap a big <article> around the whole thing.
  882. # [19:26] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  883. # [19:26] <miketaylr> by 'the whole thing', you mean the entire document, or just the article people are commenting on?
  884. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> The whole actual content area of the document (that is, not the site header or sidebars or anything).
  885. # [19:27] <Lachy> TabAtkins, most of the time, you don't need an <article> around the whole lot
  886. # [19:27] <Lachy> Use <div> for that, or maybe the proposed <content> element if that gets added to the spec
  887. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Yah, I was wondering about explicitly blessing <article> for the proposed purpose of <content>/<main>.
  888. # [19:28] <Lachy> no
  889. # [19:29] <mpilgrim> done. http://diveintohtml5.org/about.html
  890. # [19:30] <mpilgrim> Philip`: what spec are they violating?
  891. # [19:30] <Lachy> nested <article> elements need to be related to the parent article; the canonical example is reader comments
  892. # [19:30] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: I just looked at the source of html5doctor.com, and they're wrapping the main content in <section>, and the comments in <article>
  893. # [19:30] * Joins: ap (n=ap@nat/apple/x-nsusnbtvzxgcdlqg)
  894. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Lachy: So in that case, you'd wrap the blog post and the comments in an <article>, so the comments can be wrapped in <article>s and relate properly?
  895. # [19:31] <Lachy> yes
  896. # [19:32] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  897. # [19:32] <Lachy> I thought there was an example in the spec illustrating that, but I can't see it. Anyway, read the element definition. it explain it sufficiently
  898. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> miketaylr: Thanks. I think my mental model is broken; I tend to think of <section> as automatically subordinate to <article>.
  899. # [19:33] * Lachy checks what html5doctor is doing...
  900. # [19:33] <miketaylr> TabAtkins: my mental model changes every other day. :S
  901. # [19:33] <Lachy> damn. I will get that fixed. The use of <section id="content"> is wrong.
  902. # [19:34] * Lachy makes a note to contact Bruce about it
  903. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> Can you explain why it's wrong, Lachy?
  904. # [19:35] <Lachy> yes, because it affects the outline, so basically if a section doesn't have a heading (or at least, couldn't have one), then it generally shouldn't be using <section>
  905. # [19:35] <miketaylr> *lightbulbs turn on*
  906. # [19:35] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-106-242-238.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  907. # [19:35] <Lachy> I can't think of any cases where a <section> wouldn't have a heading, but I'm not confident enough to say that it never happens. But it would be rare if it did.
  908. # [19:36] <Lachy> miketaylr, does that mean my explanation helped you understand it?
  909. # [19:36] <tantek> in print, sometimes sections are simply delineated with horizontal rules, no heading
  910. # [19:36] <miketaylr> yes, .
  911. # [19:36] <miketaylr> sorry, should be more explicit. it's helpful, Lachy
  912. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> Hrm. That still seems like a significant and semantic 'section' of the page, though, even if it doesn't have a heading. It *could* have one, say, "Articles".
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  914. # [19:38] <Lachy> tantek, in the cases I've seen, where a book has chapters, which are themselves divided by horizontal rules, I'd expect the chapter to be one <section> and then simply divide it with <hr>
  915. # [19:39] <tantek> the remaining separator markup (e.g. <hr>) in HTML is a bit of an anachronism
  916. # [19:39] <tantek> originally <p> was just a separator as well
  917. # [19:39] <Lachy> IIRC, I think Hitchhiker's Guide is an example of a book that does that (though I don't have it here to check, and I could be thinking of another book)
  918. # [19:39] <Lachy> I know, but that was fixed long ago
  919. # [19:39] <tantek> but now people use <p>...</p> <p>...</p>
  920. # [19:39] <tantek> similarly, <hr> is archaic
  921. # [19:40] <tantek> it will be better to use <section>...</section> <section>...</section>
  922. # [19:40] <Lachy> <hr> is simple and practical
  923. # [19:40] <tantek> and CSS for styling/border effects
  924. # [19:40] <tantek> Lachy, so was the <p> separator
  925. # [19:40] <tantek> no different conceptually
  926. # [19:40] <tantek> it will eventually go the same way
  927. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Hrm. If <hr> does mark an implicit section break, how should it play with the outline algorithm whene using implicit sectioning via <h*>? Just close the latest implicit section?
  928. # [19:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  929. # [19:43] <Lachy> no, it doesn't close a section. It just divides two parts of it
  930. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Same question, then - does it divide the lowest section only?
  931. # [19:45] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@Zb3ce.z.pppool.de)
  932. # [19:45] * sylvaing2 humbly wonders how the masses of web authors will get <section> straight if this audience cannot
  933. # [19:45] <Lachy> I understand where you're coming from, as I once argued the same thing many years ago for XHTML2, before HTML5 started, but I've since come around and become more pragmatic about it
  934. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> I'm just nitpicking, really.
  935. # [19:46] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I don't really understand the question. It's a thematic break between two parts of the section.
  936. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> The implicit sectioning algorithm is supposed to be only for legacy content anyway.
  937. # [19:47] <Lachy> the implicit sectioning algorithm isn't affected by <hr> at all, but no, it's not only for legacy content
  938. # [19:47] <mpilgrim> econhelp/sbo
  939. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Given "<h1>foo</h1>content<h2>bar</h2>content<hr>content", does the <hr> divide the implicit section started by the <h1>, or the section started by the <h2>?
  940. # [19:47] <mpilgrim> grr
  941. # [19:48] <Lachy> Eventually, people will relise how impractical it is to have to surround every little section with a <section> element, and begin to use the numbered heading elements more wisely within sections.
  942. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Lachy: I agree and use my headings and sections that way now.
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  945. # [19:49] <Lachy> TabAtkins, the "content<hr>content" is all part of the implied section, since <hr> doesn't affect the algorithm at all. It's just treated the same as <p> or <div> or whatever else as far as the algorithm is concerned
  946. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> K, that's what I was thinking.
  947. # [19:50] <Lachy> that's actually one of the benefits of retaining the mixed model sectioing system, rather than going the pure-sectioning-based XHTML2 model
  948. # [19:53] <Lachy> damn, HTML5 doctor is totally misusing lots of markup :-(
  949. # [19:54] <Lachy> looks like we really do need to have a <content> element, if only to stop the misuse of <section>
  950. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> RT: Hrm. That still seems like a significant and semantic 'section' of the page, though, even if it doesn't have a heading. It *could* have one, say, "Articles".
  951. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> That it doesn't seems to be more of a stylistic choice than a semantic one.
  952. # [19:55] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  953. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> So I'm still not sure why html5doctor shouldn't be using a <section> theree.
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  955. # [20:00] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  956. # [20:02] <Lachy> TabAtkins, possibly, if the section were just containing the articles, and it did have an "Articles" heading, it would be right. But in html5doctor's case, it also contains the sidebar
  957. # [20:02] <Lachy> so it's being used as a general purpose container element
  958. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> Oh it does? Sorry, didn't notice that. That *is* an abuse then.
  959. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> Carry on.
  960. # [20:03] <Lachy> it's unfortunate that <section> is becoming the new <div> :-(
  961. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Agreed.
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  963. # [20:03] <Lachy> I think I need to write an article about this to clear up the issues.
  964. # [20:03] <Lachy> and tell people not to be afraid of <div>!
  965. # [20:04] <krijnh> But <div> kills kittens!
  966. # [20:04] <miketaylr> I'm allergic to cats, so I don't mind.
  967. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> I think it's the general "semantics are awesome, and <section> is more semantic than <div>, thus it is more awesome, thus I will use it everywhere" idea.
  968. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Same thing that makes people use <em> when they *really* mean <i>.
  969. # [20:06] <Lachy> krijnh, if that were true, it must be the least efficient killing method ever. I still see cats around every so often
  970. # [20:06] * Quits: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  971. # [20:06] <krijnh> Then people don't use div enough :)
  972. # [20:07] <krijnh> So your article is extra welcome
  973. # [20:07] <Lachy> what a great campaign that would be: Use <div>, Help Kill the Kittens!
  974. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'd welcome an article, Lachy. Would be good to point people to.
  975. # [20:07] <Darxus> Does HTML5 have ways for me to make it easier for a speech browser to skip the text to speech conversion by providing the speech for it?
  976. # [20:08] <Lachy> Darxus, what do you mean?
  977. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> You mean like saying "this audio file is a speech version of this element on the page"?
  978. # [20:08] <Darxus> TabAtkins: Exactly.
  979. # [20:09] <Lachy> Darxus, no, you shouldn't do that. text-to-speech has many navigational advantages over a pre-recorded audio file
  980. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> That sounds like a wonderful way to confuse the crap out of speech browsers the moment the content changes and the audio isn't updated.
  981. # [20:09] <gsnedders_> Can anyone think of anything where the narrator is the antagonist?
  982. # [20:09] <Darxus> I was thinking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia - they just record a single ogg of the entire page. And I was thinking that might be less useful than TTS due to ability to navigate.
  983. # [20:09] <Lachy> gsnedders_, do you mean, like in a play?
  984. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> I expect that aural browsers would quickly ignore such a feature.
  985. # [20:09] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  986. # [20:09] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  987. # [20:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: In any sort of literature
  988. # [20:10] <Darxus> TabAtkins: Then what is the point of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spoken_Wikipedia ?
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  990. # [20:10] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@pat.se.opera.com)
  991. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I know I've read a book or short story like that, but the title isn't coming to me.
  992. # [20:10] <Lachy> gsnedders, I think there are some cartoons that do that sometimes.
  993. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Darxus: People like doing dumb things? Spoken *wikipedia* is *extra* dumb, because Wikipedia is likely to change underneath you constantly.
  994. # [20:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: cartoons aren't proper lit. :P
  995. # [20:11] <Darxus> Hehe.
  996. # [20:11] <Lachy> gsnedders, I don't know of any books that have a narrator in the story itself
  997. # [20:12] <Darxus> Anybody know the best way for me to access a web page via text to speech under ubuntu?
  998. # [20:12] <Lachy> Darxus, there are some advantages to providing a recorded version of a relatively stable page, so people can listen to it on their MP3 players
  999. # [20:12] <Lachy> much like an Audiobook
  1000. # [20:14] <Lachy> but it shouldn't be presented as an accessible version intended for the blind. It should be an option for everyone, and the text version needs to remain accessible
  1001. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Lachy: it's decently common to have a protagonist also be the narrator.
  1002. # [20:15] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I don't read many books
  1003. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Ah, k. I do. ^_^
  1004. # [20:16] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  1005. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I think what I was thinking of was a story where the narrator was *presenting* themselves as the protagonist, even though they filled a more traditional villain role when you stepped away.
  1006. # [20:16] <Lachy> In fact, the last set of Novels I've read in a long time is the Harry Potter series, and a few years before that, I'd read The Hobbit.
  1007. # [20:17] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: How were they not the protagonist? The protagonist is merely the primary character…
  1008. # [20:17] <gsnedders> (The protagonist isn't inherently the hero, they can be the evil demon)
  1009. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Sorry, using the terms as hero/villain proxies.
  1010. # [20:17] * gsnedders sends TabAtkins back to school
  1011. # [20:18] * tantek catches up on a bit of scrollback.
  1012. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Man, whatev.
  1013. # [20:18] <tantek> Yes, divitis will simply give way to sectionitis in HTML5, as <section> is the "new shiny" that authors will adopt.
  1014. # [20:18] <gsnedders> tantek: Short version: we were discussing useful stuff, then I came in.
  1015. # [20:19] <tantek> Lachy, I agree with you that <hr> represents a thematic break. That's practical and simple. I disagree that it has anything to do with a break in a section - that just confuses the matter.
  1016. # [20:20] <Lachy> I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make
  1017. # [20:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Possibly Vernon God Little, but I didn't actually finish reading it
  1018. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Lachy: I think he's referring to something like my confusion, that saying it "breaks a section" seems to imply that an <hr> implies subsections before and after it.
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  1021. # [20:28] <Lachy> oh, yeah, that was wrong
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  1027. # [20:46] <annevk2> I always wondered why SVG was such a mess: http://www.w3.org/mid/1039235648.20090819175847@w3.org
  1028. # [20:47] <annevk2> Not that HTML is much better in this regard...
  1029. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> I sort of laughed about that too. Seems like it would have been easier/better to set a single convention, then alias the other convention if necessary.
  1030. # [20:57] <annevk2> MathML did a pretty good job at staying consistent with HTML
  1031. # [20:57] <annevk2> until they got definitionURL
  1032. # [20:57] <annevk2> not sure how that happened
  1033. # [20:57] <Hixie> probably the same way HTML managed to stay consistent with HTML until, sy, http-equiv
  1034. # [20:57] <Hixie> s/sy/say/
  1035. # [20:59] <annevk2> or <img> vs <video>?
  1036. # [21:00] <annevk2> though in text/html you could use <image> I suppose at the cost of a validation error :)
  1037. # [21:00] <annevk2> not sure if that speaks in favor of the HTML format
  1038. # [21:00] <Hixie> not sure what you mean about img vs video
  1039. # [21:01] <annevk2> abbreviation
  1040. # [21:01] <Hixie> html had different ways of naming elements from the begining
  1041. # [21:02] <annevk2> imagine you'd introduce elements for images, video, and audio today
  1042. # [21:02] <annevk2> though maybe you don't think they belong to the same set
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  1046. # [21:11] <Hixie> mpilgrim_: "The default font is 10px sans-serif. Sizes in em or percentages are measured against the default font." is wrong
  1047. # [21:14] <Hixie> it's relative to the computed value of the font on the <canvas> element
  1048. # [21:15] <annevk2> mpilgrim_, are you planning on updating it online or will we have to wait until early 2010?
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  1052. # [21:18] <annevk2> Hixie, you should include this comic in the Web Database introduction section: http://xkcd.com/327/
  1053. # [21:20] <Hixie> hehe
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  1071. # [22:26] <mpilgrim> is this text correct now? http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html#relative-font-size
  1072. # [22:26] <mpilgrim> (annevk2 or annevk3 or whomever)
  1073. # [22:27] <ttepasse> mpilgrim, something different: <div id=body>?
  1074. # [22:27] <mpilgrim> damn, i was hoping no one would notice that
  1075. # [22:27] <mpilgrim> styling the body element is... difficult
  1076. # [22:27] <ttepasse> Next on my list: the <dl>s
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  1078. # [22:27] <mpilgrim> mu
  1079. # [22:28] <ttepasse> hihi
  1080. # [22:28] <annevk2> mpilgrim, I think so
  1081. # [22:28] <mpilgrim> (c.f. http://www.propylon.com/news/ctoarticles/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Manuals_20020822.html )
  1082. # [22:28] <mpilgrim> ok, thanks
  1083. # [22:29] <mpilgrim> the answer to your other question is that i'll be updating diveintohtml5.org, but i'm not sure about the version on oreilly.com
  1084. # [22:29] <mpilgrim> i should probably ask them to republish just with this change, since it's a technical error
  1085. # [22:29] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1086. # [22:29] <mpilgrim> they will not be updating their excerpt for new content
  1087. # [22:30] <mpilgrim> the rest of the chapter will discuss transformations, animation, and using the explorercanvas library for IE compatibility
  1088. # [22:30] <mpilgrim> oh, and toDataURL or whatever it's called
  1089. # [22:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46) ("The computer fell asleep")
  1090. # [22:31] <annevk2> that's the name
  1091. # [22:32] <annevk2> in other news, if people could help out fill out tables for the other browsers: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings
  1092. # [22:32] <annevk2> I got the slightly overambitious goal of solving the encoding problem
  1093. # [22:34] <Dashiva> annevk2: Is there simple test to run?
  1094. # [22:34] * Joins: sgalineau (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-csrhvagepiraplkx)
  1095. # [22:34] <annevk2> I wish
  1096. # [22:35] <annevk2> sgalineau, any chance you could help out with http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings for Internet Explorer?
  1097. # [22:36] <krijnh> Is there a problem then? :)
  1098. # [22:36] <ttepasse> Is there a reason, why <mark> is just phrasing content?
  1099. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: because its primary purpose is to mark frex search terms in a page.
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  1101. # [22:41] <ttepasse> I was thinking more about the usage in blockquotes.
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  1103. # [22:45] <shepazu> TabAtkins: "frex"?
  1104. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> frex = for example
  1105. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: Oh, so you wanna <mark> a block of markup within a <blockquote>?
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  1108. # [22:48] <ttepasse> The concrete use case were two paragraphs, yes.
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  1111. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Hrm. FF respects styling when printing to the point of cutting off ordinary text in a fixed-width container that is wider than the page.
  1112. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> That's a little annoying.
  1113. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Probably required, but still.
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  1116. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> annevk2: Was there a point to the email you just sent, or is just a summary of things?
  1117. # [22:57] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  1118. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> annevk2: Not trying to be rude, just wondering. ^_^
  1119. # [22:58] <annevk2> i hit the wrong button?
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  1121. # [22:58] <annevk2> oh and it arrived two times? sweet
  1122. # [22:58] <annevk2> wtf
  1123. # [22:58] <krijnh> You prutser you
  1124. # [22:58] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@c83-252-192-255.bredband.comhem.se)
  1125. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Ah, makes a lot more sense now.
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  1127. # [22:59] <shepazu> "Due to the cheer volume of e-mails on this list"... either Hixie thinks the HTML list is a happy place, or it's full of cheerleaders, or he made a slight typo... possibly all 3
  1128. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> I'm going with the second explanation.
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  1130. # [23:03] <mpilgrim> annevk2: you should integrate the information/tests from http://coq.no/character-tables/mime/iso-2022/en , http://coq.no/character-tables/mime/euc/en , and http://coq.no/character-tables/mime/locale-specific/en
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  1137. # [23:07] <Hixie> where's the spec that defines how implementations implement ARIA again?
  1138. # [23:10] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/
  1139. # [23:10] <annevk2> not sure where the editor's draft is
  1140. # [23:10] <annevk2> thanks mpilgrim
  1141. # [23:11] <poe> ed è anche ragionevole la dipendenza dalla velocità
  1142. # [23:11] <poe> i'm sorry wrong window
  1143. # [23:12] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-practices-20090224/
  1144. # [23:12] <Hixie> thanks
  1145. # [23:13] <Hixie> wait that can't be it
  1146. # [23:13] <Hixie> the link to the editor's draft is quite wrong
  1147. # [23:13] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/
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  1152. # [23:25] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  1153. # [23:25] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
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  1155. # [23:47] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  1156. # [23:47] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  1157. # [23:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  1158. # [23:47] * Set by annevk on Thu Feb 05 13:51:18
  1159. # [23:57] <krijnh> Shitty connection day :/
  1160. # [23:58] <JonathanNeal> It's not even using of the new HTML5 elements, for starters. I guess this would be best shared with a cross compatibility or css channel. Sorry.
  1161. # Session Close: Thu Aug 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)