/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-08-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  4. # [00:12] <Hixie> gotta love how aria's role=img isn't the same as <img>
  5. # [00:13] <othermaciej> that's funny
  6. # [00:13] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  7. # [00:17] <Hixie> also <marquee> is not a role=marquee
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  9. # [00:20] <tlsa> Hixie: i dunno if this is of any interest http://wiki.netsurf-browser.org/Spec/HTML5_Alignment
  10. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah, that would be good to send to the list
  11. # [00:21] <Hixie> i'm always happy to make the language clearer where it's opaque
  12. # [00:22] <tlsa> also, it doesn't mention how html aligment does not propagate into TABLE descendants
  13. # [00:24] <tlsa> also, we have test cases:
  14. # [00:24] <tlsa> http://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/netsurftest/other/aligntests/index.html
  15. # [00:24] <tlsa> for determining how other browsers handled html alignment & css propertys
  16. # [00:24] <tlsa> results here: http://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/netsurftest/other/aligntests/AlignTestResults.txt
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  18. # [00:25] <Hixie> yeah, definitely send that feedback to the list
  19. # [00:25] <tlsa> ok, which list?
  20. # [00:28] <Hixie> whatwg@whatwg.org, or public-html@w3.org, or any of the other feedback mechanisms mentioned at the top of the spec
  21. # [00:29] <Hixie> easiest to subscribe to is the first of those
  22. # [00:29] <tlsa> right, i'll post tomorrow
  23. # [00:29] * tlsa --> bed
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  26. # [00:29] <Hixie> thanks!
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie> ARIA is confusing
  28. # [00:30] <Hixie> listitem is defined as "A single item in a list, listbox, or directory"
  29. # [00:30] <Hixie> but is not allows as a child of a "listbox"
  30. # [00:30] <Hixie> s/allows/allowed
  31. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That looks like a mistake on listitem. Listbox is only supposed to contain option as children.
  32. # [00:33] <Hixie> does <section> map to role=region?
  33. # [00:33] <Hixie> role=section is abstract...
  34. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Hrm. The listbox is actually really confusing. It has both list and select as parents. List has to have listitem or group children, but selects have option children generally.
  35. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie: role=region seems to be appropriate only if the <section> doesn't map to any of the landmark roles.
  36. # [00:36] <Hixie> what other landmark roles might apply?
  37. # [00:37] <Hixie> main and search?
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  39. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> application, main, search
  40. # [00:38] <Hixie> contentinfo maybe
  41. # [00:38] <Hixie> not application, surely
  42. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> maybe contentinfo if <footer> isn't appropriate
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  44. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> oh hrm, you're right. application should be reserved for <article>
  45. # [00:38] <Hixie> i thought it should be reserved for <html>
  46. # [00:39] * gsnedders laughs at how well people manage to agree on this
  47. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> A single page can have a document and application section, though.
  48. # [00:39] <Hixie> it can?
  49. # [00:39] <othermaciej> couldn't a page have multiple "applications" if it embeds widgets?
  50. # [00:39] <Hixie> i guess
  51. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> that's what I'm getting out of the section, at least.
  52. # [00:39] <Hixie> the definition of "application" is "A region declared as a web application, as opposed to a web document."
  53. # [00:40] <othermaciej> conversely, couldn't an "application" contain a "document", like GMail's content view showing a mail message?
  54. # [00:40] <Hixie> yeah they have that as an example
  55. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> possible example of document containing an application: blog with a comment form?
  56. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> rich comment form, that is.
  57. # [00:42] <othermaciej> a blog with sidebar widgets
  58. # [00:42] <othermaciej> would be a document containing an application
  59. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I would bring up the listitem/listbox thing as a bug. There's no way to reconcile those two.
  60. # [00:43] <Hixie> the draft i'm looking at doesnt
  61. # [00:43] <Hixie> say where to send comments
  62. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ says to send it to the pfwg list
  63. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> wai-xtech@w3.org
  64. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> public-pfwg-comments@w3.org
  65. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> it says to copy both
  66. # [00:45] <Hixie> thx
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  74. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Woo, I like <audio>. Much easier to work with than my flashplayer thing.
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  80. # [02:10] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, has anyone written a script that checks for audio tags, support for audio tags, and swaps them out with flash players for incompatible versions?
  81. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> I'm certain they have.
  82. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> But I can't point you to any.
  83. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Should be basically the same as the many scripts that do so for <video>.
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  85. # [02:15] <JonathanNeal> Oh they've done video, you have an example of that one?
  86. # [02:18] <JonathanNeal> Well, a beautiful girl is waiting for me in Fullerton and I gotta go. Have a great weekend, TabAtkins.
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  101. # [03:17] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products
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  103. # [03:18] <othermaciej> I'll have to review later
  104. # [03:18] <othermaciej> looks like a good start
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  107. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> Hmm, you sure you want <div> to default to role=presentation?
  108. # [03:21] <Hixie> pretty sure
  109. # [03:21] <Hixie> why?
  110. # [03:22] <TabAtkins> That seems to imply that the content has *no* semantics, rather than just that the content doesn't have defined semantics.
  111. # [03:22] <Hixie> isn't that exactly what <div> means?
  112. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> It means the latter, not the former.
  113. # [03:23] <Hixie> i don't understand the distinction
  114. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> presentation means that the content is *entirely* decorative, without any hope of semantics being applied.
  115. # [03:24] <Hixie> role=presentation just means "skip the element when mapping it to the accessibility API"
  116. # [03:24] <othermaciej> as I understand it, role=presentation means that even things inside the element are considered to have no semantics
  117. # [03:24] <TabAtkins> <div>, on the other hand, just has no semantics - it's a default for when the language fails, not an active declaration that something is inherently void of semantics.
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  119. # [03:24] <TabAtkins> ::points to othermaciej::
  120. # [03:24] <othermaciej> i.e. skips the element and its contents
  121. # [03:24] <othermaciej> but my understanding could be wrong
  122. # [03:24] <Hixie> your understandings both seem to contradict the spec
  123. # [03:24] <Hixie> i can't see where it says anything abotu descendants
  124. # [03:25] <Hixie> and (notwithstanding that i've made the example invalid in html5) they have an example showing this: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#presentation
  125. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> Hrm, you're right. The spec does allow accessibility APIs to still read the contents.
  126. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> Never mind, then. That seems appropriate.
  127. # [03:25] <othermaciej> Hiyou are right
  128. # [03:25] <othermaciej> er
  129. # [03:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: you are right
  130. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> Dur, they even have a good example right there, with an <li role=presentation> containing an <a role=listitem>.
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  132. # [03:27] <Hixie> well it's a moderately good example, since as i said, i just made that example invalid in html5
  133. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> Ah, because you've constained <li> to be either listitem or treeitem
  134. # [03:27] <Hixie> (<li role=presentation> and <a role=treeitem> both violate the "strong native semantics")
  135. # [03:29] <Hixie> i wonder if i should make all the inline elements have No Role, instead of leaving them open like now
  136. # [03:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: why don't you allow lists as menus?
  137. # [03:31] <TabAtkins> Hmm. At the very least, make <span> role=presentation with an override, same as <div>
  138. # [03:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: lists as menus?
  139. # [03:32] <TabAtkins> <ul>/<ol> as role=menu
  140. # [03:32] <TabAtkins> presumably
  141. # [03:32] <othermaciej> <li> with a menuitem role for instance
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  143. # [03:32] <othermaciej> and <ul> with role=menu
  144. # [03:32] <othermaciej> since people commonly use list markup for things that are in fact menus (but not either context menus or toolbars)
  145. # [03:33] <Hixie> othermaciej: i meant to allow that with <menu> <li>
  146. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> Hm, I wonder if that works anywhere yet?
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  148. # [03:33] <Hixie> but i appear to have forgotten to allow the <li> part of that
  149. # [03:33] <Hixie> <menu><li> works in everything back to like netscape 1
  150. # [03:34] <othermaciej> the <li> part was the aspect I noticed
  151. # [03:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, right, isn't that just a reclaiming of an old element?
  152. # [03:34] <othermaciej> <menu><li> seems reasonable
  153. # [03:34] <TabAtkins> Agreed.
  154. # [03:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
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  156. # [03:34] <othermaciej> and I forgot about <menu>'s no-type state
  157. # [03:34] <othermaciej> all right, I'm off
  158. # [03:34] <othermaciej> later folks
  159. # [03:35] <Hixie> later
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  161. # [03:35] <Hixie> actually, turns out i don't have to do anything for <menu><li>
  162. # [03:35] <Hixie> well, i suppose i should make it role=presentaitonal
  163. # [03:37] <Hixie> hmm
  164. # [03:37] <Hixie> actuall making <div> and <span> vanish is going to cause issues with the many global attributes
  165. # [03:37] <TabAtkins> Hm. Is the only difference between dialog and alertdialog that the latter should act modal?
  166. # [03:37] <Hixie> i guess i'll remove the role=presentation after all
  167. # [03:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: something to do with focus, it seems
  168. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> nah, that's between alert and dialog (dialog should have focus).
  169. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> i think alertdialog is just dialog but modal
  170. # [03:39] <TabAtkins> The aria spec I'm reading recommends that, when the entire document is itself a role=document, that should be placed on <body>, not <html>
  171. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> same with role=application
  172. # [03:40] <Hixie> it says "root note for content"
  173. # [03:40] <Hixie> root node, rather
  174. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> But then explicitly gives <body> as an example
  175. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#document
  176. # [03:40] <Hixie> yeah, i see the example
  177. # [03:40] <Hixie> not sure what to make of it
  178. # [03:41] <Hixie> the <head> is content too
  179. # [03:41] <Hixie> the root node is <html>
  180. # [03:41] * Hixie shrugs
  181. # [03:41] <Hixie> also, that should is not bold and capitalised...
  182. # [03:41] <Hixie> i wonder if it is meant to be a SHOULD or not
  183. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> Well, <title>, <meta>, <style> all have strong semantic of "no role"
  184. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> presumably <script> and <link> would be similar?
  185. # [03:42] <Hixie> oh did i not add <script>?
  186. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> So what content would remain in <head> that would be meaningful?
  187. # [03:42] <Hixie> <link> is not no-role, it's link
  188. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> Oh, duh.
  189. # [03:42] <Hixie> i'm gonna remove the no role ones, i think
  190. # [03:42] <Hixie> at least some of them
  191. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> Add that too, then.
  192. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> <link>, that is
  193. # [03:43] <Hixie> <link> is a link, i'm not removing that
  194. # [03:43] <Hixie> why would we remove it?
  195. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> I know, but it's not in the document right now at all.
  196. # [03:44] <Hixie> how so?
  197. # [03:44] <Hixie> it's the first entry in the table
  198. # [03:44] <Hixie> a, area, link
  199. # [03:44] <TabAtkins> Gah, of course, the *one* entry with multiple elements.
  200. # [03:44] <Hixie> i'll split them into three
  201. # [03:44] <Hixie> :-)
  202. # [03:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the <h1>-<h6> block made me expect one element per line
  203. # [03:44] <Hixie> yeah
  204. # [03:45] <Hixie> i was originally going to just have "elements that are hyperlinks"
  205. # [03:45] <Hixie> and added the element names explicitly, not sure why
  206. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> I'd keep <style> and <script> as No role, but either remove <title> or give it heading.
  207. # [03:48] <Hixie> why keep them as no role?
  208. # [03:48] <Hixie> i've removed title
  209. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> I can't think of any reason to ever have any accessibility guide on them.
  210. # [03:49] <TabAtkins> Or wait, does No Role mean they're read as part of the text or something?
  211. # [03:49] <Hixie> No role means that you're not allowd to set role="" on them
  212. # [03:50] <Hixie> i think we should set no role on <script> if we set it on, say, <var>, but otherwise, I don't see much point
  213. # [03:50] <TabAtkins> For ATs that pay attention, how does a lack of role affect them?
  214. # [03:51] <Hixie> not 100% sure
  215. # [03:52] <TabAtkins> If they then treat it like normal content, then I don't think <script> should be No Role. You don't want to know the contents of script when using a page - they're not relevant except through their effects.
  216. # [03:53] <Hixie> well "treat as normal content" can mean several things
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  218. # [03:53] <Hixie> it can mean "hide things display:none"
  219. # [03:53] <TabAtkins> Hmm, suppose that's true.
  220. # [03:54] <TabAtkins> Well, assuming that's true, I don't think I have any problems. Looks good, Ian.
  221. # [03:54] <Hixie> cool
  222. # [03:54] <Hixie> ok well i should go get dinner
  223. # [03:54] <TabAtkins> Now we just need ARIA to provide better semantics so it can catch up html's native stuff.
  224. # [03:55] <TabAtkins> Later.
  225. # [03:55] <Hixie> i'll reply to more mail later
  226. # [03:55] <Hixie> heh yeah
  227. # [03:55] <Hixie> later
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  250. # [05:54] <TabAtkins> In light of the recent Sears and Kmart category-changing debacle (which was awesome), I have temporarily added a similar facility to my own company's website.
  251. # [05:55] <TabAtkins> I am struck by extreme giggles at seeing familiar pages advertising "Baby Launchers" and "Big Ass Tools, Fuck Yeah".
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  260. # [06:47] <heycam> jgraham, yeah at the current rate of progress on web idl maybe i should just update it to es5 and not bother having an es3 version :)
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  263. # [07:00] <Lachy> Hixie, have you had any thoughts about the proposed <content> element? I'm writing an article explaining everything authors need to know about sectioning, and if that is to be added, it would change how I need to write a fairly significant part of it
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  266. # [07:10] <Hixie> Lachy: i haven't read the thread, but off-hand i don't understand what problem it's solving
  267. # [07:10] <Hixie> (i haven't read the thread so maybe the problem was described there)
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  269. # [07:15] <Lachy> yeah, the problem was described in the thread
  270. # [07:16] <Lachy> basically, authors are misusing <section> as a generic wrapper to group content together, and the idea is that <content> would map to role=main (when its nearest setioning element ancestor is the body element)
  271. # [07:17] <Hixie> isn't <body> the relevant element for wrapping the contents of the page?
  272. # [07:17] <Lachy> e.g. authors do stuff like this: <article><header>...</header><section>...</section><footer>...</footer></article> where the <section> itself is just a wrapper around the content area, and doesn't actually have a heading of its own
  273. # [07:18] <Hixie> it seems like a better solution than a new element would be to point out they can just remove the element altogether
  274. # [07:19] <gavin_> it was proposed as an alternative to <div id="main">/<div id="content">
  275. # [07:19] <gavin_> which is a pretty common pattern
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  277. # [07:19] <Hixie> isn't no element at all a suitable alternative to that?
  278. # [07:19] <Hixie> i really don't understand what this is for
  279. # [07:20] <Lachy> e.g. This is a better example: <body><header>...</header><section id="content">...</section><aside id="sidebar">...</aside><footer>...</footer></body>
  280. # [07:20] <Hixie> why is this not enough: <body><header>...</header>...<aside id="sidebar">...</aside><footer>...</footer></body>
  281. # [07:21] <Lachy> Hixie, generally, the element can be omitted, but authors have expectations that aren't being met by the current model, and in this case it seems better to meet those expectations, rather than fight against them which is proving only to lead to the abuse of other elements
  282. # [07:21] <gavin_> I don't know why it's a common pattern
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  284. # [07:21] <Hixie> i'm not just going to add features to fill cargo cult expectations without understanding why
  285. # [07:21] <Hixie> that's a dumb way to design a language
  286. # [07:21] <gavin_> easy styling would be one reason, I guess
  287. # [07:22] <Hixie> if the only semantic is as a styling hook, that's what <div> is for.
  288. # [07:22] <aho> which browsers support the audio tag already? ff seems to work, opera (9.x) says it doesn't know about it... chrome says it does support it, but it doesnt want to play my ogg
  289. # [07:22] <Lachy> (personally, I have recommended using <div> for those purposes, but the implied semantics of role=main make it slightly more useful
  290. # [07:23] <Hixie> i don't really understand the semantic of role=main either
  291. # [07:24] <Lachy> from ARIA: "The main role is a non-obtrusive alternative for "skip to main content" links"
  292. # [07:25] <Hixie> that's what <nav> is for
  293. # [07:25] <Hixie> so that's already handled
  294. # [07:25] <Hixie> (in an imho better way)
  295. # [07:27] <Lachy> nav identifies the navigation, and the main content is currently just assumed to be the content after <header> (if present) that isn't either <aside> or <nav>. (I'm not entirely sure why some people don't find that adequate)
  296. # [07:27] <aho> "ff seems to work" <- ehm... or not... it's pretty buggy there :/
  297. # [07:28] <Lachy> but I'm fine with just recommending the use of <div> or nothing in the article. I'm not really decided either way on whether <content> is a good idea
  298. # [07:29] <Hixie> aho: it's early days yet
  299. # [07:29] <aho> yo Hixie... well, the specs for play() are troublesome either way
  300. # [07:29] <gavin_> how is ff buggy?
  301. # [07:29] <Hixie> Lachy: off hand i think no element (or <div> for those who need a comfort blanket here) is the way to go, but i'll have to study the thread
  302. # [07:30] <Hixie> aho: the spec for play()?
  303. # [07:30] <aho> the way it's written there means that it wouldn't be possible to play the same thing several times simultaneously... you'd have to create some cyclic buffer thing on the js side for that to work
  304. # [07:30] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  305. # [07:30] <aho> gavin_, first time play is called it works fine... after that the sound is played twice each time
  306. # [07:31] <gavin_> do you have a testcase?
  307. # [07:31] <aho> media . play()
  308. # [07:31] <aho> Sets the paused attribute to false, loading the media resource and beginning playback if necessary. If the playback had ended, will restart it from the start.
  309. # [07:31] <aho> if it's done like that each audio thingy can be only played once... then you gotta wait till it's done... and then you can play it again
  310. # [07:32] <Hixie> aho: are you using this for soundeffects or for, like, a podcast player?
  311. # [07:32] <aho> so, right now... if you want to play the same thing several times at the same time you'd have to check if it ".ended"... if not use a new one and play that
  312. # [07:32] <aho> sfx
  313. # [07:33] <aho> otherwise it wouldnt matter, would it? ;)
  314. # [07:33] <Hixie> aah, yeah, you need to have one Audio per instance of the sound you want to play at once
  315. # [07:33] <aho> gavin_, i can upload it
  316. # [07:34] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/ct/audio1.html
  317. # [07:35] <aho> hover one of those rects... hear how it sounds... wait till it's done... hover the next and then you get something like 30% of the sample and then the complete sample
  318. # [07:35] <aho> it sorta stutters
  319. # [07:35] <aho> (on winxp at least)
  320. # [07:36] <aho> it will continue to behave like that until you reload... then it works fine again... well... once :>
  321. # [07:37] <gavin_> aho: thanks, I'll file a bug
  322. # [07:37] <Lachy> Hixie, are the terms "strong native semantics" and "implicit ARIA semantics" meant to be defined somewhere?
  323. # [07:37] <aho> if you put some console.log thingies there you'll see that the in function (first thingy in hover) is indeed only called once
  324. # [07:37] <aho> gavin_, thanks
  325. # [07:38] <aho> i actually wanted to write some cyclic buffer thing... but it's sorta hard if the sound is broken :)
  326. # [07:38] <Hixie> Lachy: i'm told ARIA is going to make them magic
  327. # [07:38] <Hixie> Lachy: i was going to wait until the ARIA spec was ready so that i could make sure i used these magic terms properly
  328. # [07:38] <aho> maybe i should try a longer stereo sample (the used one is mono)
  329. # [07:38] <Hixie> Lachy: as one would, if one were writing a spec responsibly
  330. # [07:39] <Hixie> Lachy: but various people decided that i should just make shit up instead, so that's what i did
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  332. # [07:40] <aho> since chrome claims it knows about the audio tag... which formats does it support? is there any way to query this stuff?
  333. # [07:40] <Lachy> ah, ok.
  334. # [07:41] <Lachy> I was wondering why ARIA suddenly got added despite you waiting for the ARIA spec to be adjusted
  335. # [07:41] <gavin_> aho: oh, turns out it's already fixed
  336. # [07:41] <aho> :o
  337. # [07:41] <aho> any eta for when it will be in stable?
  338. # [07:42] <Hixie> Lachy: i realised i was wasting significantly more time explaining to people why it was stupid to do it prematurely than i would waste from fixing the resulting mess from doing it prematurely
  339. # [07:42] <Lachy> can you explain what the difference between the two terms are?
  340. # [07:44] <Lachy> the spec says "The following table defines the strong native semantics and corresponding implicit ARIA semantics that apply to HTML elements."
  341. # [07:45] <Lachy> but the table below that only contains 2 columns: one for the elements and the other for the "Implied ARIA semantics". Where are the strong native semantics defined?
  342. # [07:45] <Hixie> Lachy: i was basing it on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0962.html
  343. # [07:45] <gavin_> aho: in firefox 3.6 at the very least
  344. # [07:45] <aho> aw
  345. # [07:45] <Hixie> Lachy: everything in that table is both an implied aria semantic and a strong native semantic
  346. # [07:46] <gavin_> note: "at least" - could potentially be in a 3.5.x release as well
  347. # [07:46] <Hixie> of course then we have http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1001.html
  348. # [07:46] <Hixie> so who the heck knows
  349. # [07:46] <Hixie> but worry not! for aria is ready! even though they haven't actually figured out what it should be yet
  350. # [07:46] <Hixie> (i may be bitter :-P)
  351. # [07:47] <Lachy> so are the roles in the first of the two tables meant to be the strong native semantic roles that aren't allowed to be overridden, and those in the second table are just the implied roles that can be, subject to the listed restrictions?
  352. # [07:48] <aho> ah meh... chrome wants mp3 :f
  353. # [07:49] <Hixie> Lachy: isn't the paragraph above the first table clear enough about that? i thought i'd said that in at least three different ways just to be sure it was crystal clear...
  354. # [07:49] <Lachy> if so, I would change "The following table defines the strong native semantics and corresponding implicit ARIA semantics that apply to HTML elements." to "The following table defines the strong native semantics that apply to HTML elements." and change the table's second column heading to "Strong native semantics"
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  357. # [07:50] <Hixie> the term "strong native semantics" can't be the column header because it's an "impl"-only term
  358. # [07:50] <Hixie> turn on the highlight mode
  359. # [07:50] <Hixie> you'll see what i mean
  360. # [07:51] <Lachy> I have highlighting turned on, and it's not impl only
  361. # [07:52] <Hixie> oh, it's the other way around
  362. # [07:52] <Hixie> man i'm confused
  363. # [07:52] <Hixie> this is exactly why i didn't want to do this before i had some spec to refer to
  364. # [07:53] <Hixie> wait so you're proposing just not mentioning that these are implicit aria semantics?
  365. # [07:53] <Hixie> wouldn't that, like, fail at what we're trying to do here
  366. # [07:55] <Hixie> reload, tell me if that's better
  367. # [07:55] <Lachy> I thought "strong native semantics" and "implicit aria semantics" were two different, mutually exclusive types of semantics. I'm proposing you clarify which is which
  368. # [07:56] <Hixie> "strong native semantics" is the authoring criteria side, "implicit aria semantics" is the UA conformance criteria side.
  369. # [07:56] <Hixie> at least according to the fictional spec text that i'm assuming will one day be written
  370. # [07:56] <Lachy> oh? That wasn't at all clear from the spec
  371. # [07:56] <Hixie> which spec?
  372. # [07:56] <Lachy> your spec
  373. # [07:56] <Hixie> the spec defining these terms doesn't exist yet
  374. # [07:56] <Lachy> I know
  375. # [07:56] <Hixie> i don't define the terms
  376. # [07:56] <Hixie> i just use them
  377. # [07:57] <Lachy> but still, the way in which you used them didn't make it clear that one only applied to implementors
  378. # [07:57] <Hixie> i thought it was pretty clear though since one of the terms is only used in UA-only text
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  380. # [07:59] <Lachy> alright, that's slightly better. I guess I'll wait for those terms to be defined properly before I can understand this better
  381. # [07:59] <Hixie> you and me both
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  419. # [11:52] <aho> so... for mp3... "audio/mpeg; codecs=???"
  420. # [11:52] <aho> google yields a whopping 5 non-helpful hits
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  423. # [12:13] <foolip> aho: no codecs parameter for mp3
  424. # [12:15] <aho> in chrome 'audio/mpeg' (the right mime) returns an empty string. whereas 'audio/mp3' returns a 'maybe'
  425. # [12:15] <aho> should i resort to agent sniffing like everyone else? :f
  426. # [12:21] <foolip> file a bug on chrome I guess
  427. # [12:22] <foolip> but can chrome in fact play mp3?
  428. # [12:22] <aho> ye, works if i just do it
  429. # [12:22] <aho> (i.e. w/o any checking)
  430. # [12:23] <foolip> do you have several formats?
  431. # [12:24] <foolip> otherwise just use it without checking
  432. # [12:26] <Lachy> this is a few days old, but it was just pointed out to me that Google Image Search is encouraging the use of RDFa :-( http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/08/specifying-images-license-using-rdfa.html
  433. # [12:30] * gsnedders doesn't think Lachy would like what he's playing with now
  434. # [12:31] <aho> foolip, i *need* several formats. firefox does ogg but doesn't mp3. chrome does mp3, but doesn't ogg.
  435. # [12:35] <Lachy> gsnedders, I have no idea what toys you kids play with these days.
  436. # [12:36] <foolip> aho: chrome plays ogg vorbis
  437. # [12:36] <gsnedders> Lachy: RDF data exchange
  438. # [12:36] <Lachy> why?
  439. # [12:36] <foolip> gsnedders: I'm also having a blast with RDF!
  440. # [12:37] <aho> doesnt work here... mp3 works fine tho
  441. # [12:37] <foolip> aho: strange, sounds like you need to file 2 bugs at chrome
  442. # [12:38] <foolip> aho: chrome claims "maybe" for "audio/ogg"
  443. # [12:39] <foolip> I'd just do <audio><source src="audio.ogg"><source src="audio.mp3"></audio> and let the browser figure it out if canPlayType is too broken still
  444. # [12:40] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/ct/audio4.html
  445. # [12:40] <aho> firefox and chrome behave differently
  446. # [12:40] <aho> not sure which one is right
  447. # [12:40] <aho> (ff's behavior makes sense to me though)
  448. # [12:41] <foolip> in which way are they different except for supporting different formats?
  449. # [12:41] <foolip> I've filed bugs on Chrome's canPlayType before and they fixed it
  450. # [12:41] <aho> chrome wont restart the sound and will throw an error
  451. # [12:41] <foolip> what, if you call play() after playback has ended?
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  453. # [12:42] <aho> it doesnt play it again
  454. # [12:42] <foolip> that would be a bug in chrome, the spec says it should seek to the beginning
  455. # [12:43] <aho> eg the second one got 5 sounds... so, i can play a sound 5 times there... but then it's dead
  456. # [12:43] <foolip> you can always hack it by creating a new audio element for each time: new Audio("audio.mp3").play()
  457. # [12:45] <aho> i fear that might clutter up the ram
  458. # [12:45] <foolip> chrome should have a good enough garbage collector, try it
  459. # [12:46] <foolip> or you could try calling load() after each time, although that should be pretty much equivalent to creating a new element
  460. # [12:47] <aho> using load works for a little bit... then it dies... mh... cant even reload my (local) test page anymore
  461. # [12:47] <aho> tab died
  462. # [12:47] <aho> :>
  463. # [12:48] <foolip> well, that's 3 bugs you need to report
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  467. # [13:20] <Dashiva> Is this ietf-honest thing just a storm in a teacup?
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  477. # [14:19] <gsnedders> http://www.google.se/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=standard+grade+results&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
  478. # [14:19] <gsnedders> That's somewhat disturbing.
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  481. # [15:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
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  487. # [16:23] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  488. # [16:26] <Dashiva> Sure hope role=presentation doesn't end up as another content-type-and-we-really-mean-it-this-time
  489. # [16:42] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@216-15-54-105.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com)
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  495. # [17:23] * Quits: aho (n=nya@g228089079.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION")
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  500. # [17:33] <Lachy> Dashiva, what do you mean?
  501. # [17:34] <Dashiva> Used because alt="" isn't a reliable indicator of presentational images. Then it itself becomes misused, and a few years down the road we'll need yet another way to really mark an image presentational
  502. # [17:42] * Quits: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  503. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> Wow, just noticed that whether or not a checkbox is checked is referred to as its "checkedness state". Awesome. ^_^
  504. # [17:43] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
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  513. # [18:15] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
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  544. # [22:02] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Client Quit)
  545. # [22:03] * Quits: harig (i=aparan@121.245.125.53)
  546. # [22:06] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  547. # [22:06] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
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  549. # [22:20] * Joins: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@76-219-69-134.lightspeed.breaca.sbcglobal.net)
  550. # [22:23] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-65-89.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  551. # [22:31] * gsnedders does backflip, then hides
  552. # [22:34] <Hixie> anyone seen hsivonen around?
  553. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Not for the past 5 hours.
  554. # [22:41] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  557. # [22:46] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-125-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  558. # [22:46] <cying> whoa, full house today
  559. # [22:52] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-227-106-231.rmo.bellsouth.net) ("Core Breach")
  560. # [22:58] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  563. # [23:12] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-76-126-175-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  568. # [23:56] * Quits: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  569. # Session Close: Sun Aug 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)